The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett - NotOnTheHighStreet.com Founder: Rapid Success Lead To My Darkest Days: Holly Tucker

Episode Date: August 9, 2021

Holly Tucker MBE has over twenty years experience building businesses, and today she shares that insight with us. After working in advertising, media, and for a start-up, Holly gave it all up to start Not On The High Street, an online start-up with an inspiring mission: to give a wider platform for small businesses to compete with high street chains. Known as ‘Hurricane Holly’ for always doing everything quickly, she started Not On the High Street in 2006. Then, it was just one of three online marketplaces in the world, the other two being Amazon and Ebay. Now, her business is going from strength to strength, and employs over 200 people from her West London base. She has used her knowledge to counsel others looking to build their own businesses, and is the author of three books, the latest being Do What You Love, Love What You Do, about how to turn your passion into profit. We think after listening to Holly’s story you’ll see how anyone can found a successful business, no matter what barriers stand in their way. Holly’s story is nothing short of inspiring, and we can’t wait for you to hear it. Follow Holly: Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/hollytucker Holly’s book - https://amzn.eu/d/6tXricl Follow me: https://beacons.ai/diaryofaceo

Quick one. Just wanted to say a big thank you to three people very quickly. First people I want to say thank you to is all of you that listen to the show. Never in my wildest dreams is all I can say. Never in my wildest dreams did I think I'd start a podcast in my kitchen and that it would expand all over the world as it has done. And we've now opened our first studio in America, thanks to my very helpful team led by Jack on the production side of things. So thank you to Jack and the team for building out the new American studio. And thirdly to to Amazon Music, who when they heard that we were expanding to the United States, and I'd be recording a lot more over in the States, they put a massive billboard in Times Square for the show. So thank you so much, Amazon Music. Thank you to our team. And

thank you to all of you that listened to the show. Let's continue. Early 20s, I was diagnosed with a brain tumour. That was the first knockdown. Holly Tucker, ex-CEO and founder of Not On The High Street. Holly's story is mind-blowing. We go and pitch the idea of Not On The High Street to the land of VCs, who would tell us that it was lovely that us women wanted to create a crafts website, but really there was nothing in it. And I just said, well, we're actually going to change the face of retailing. Funny enough, it's not a craft website. We tried to build a marketplace with no tech experience, but we knew what we wanted. And so we found someone who built the

technology that eBay were building in America and we just relaunched and we nailed it. How could I smile or laugh? I found myself becoming a different version of me. One of the lines at Holly & Co is bringing colour to grey and I think I was turning grey. Holly Tucker, ex-CEO and founder of Knot on The High Street, one of the UK's most loved brands, but a real pioneer in its space at its time. Holly's story is mind-blowing. How she rose from someone that had no experience, didn't have huge amounts of capital, at a time when women in business, especially women in tech, had it harder than anybody else, she built an online tech company that went on to be worth hundreds and hundreds of millions. But her story isn't straightforward. It's riddled with pain,

divorce, heartbreak, turmoil, and having to reinvent and re-find herself time and time again. The fundamental life lessons that she shares today and that she unpacks for us are life lessons based on problems that we're all going to experience in our lives. It's a real joy to bring you this conversation and I want to thank Holly for her openness, her intellect and her incredibly inspiring personality. Without further ado, I'm Stephen Bartlett and this is The Diary of a CEO. I hope nobody's listening but if you are then please keep this to yourself I always start in the same place in this podcast because I think it provides the greatest amount of context on a person so I I'm I'm somewhat sort of bored of asking these questions

but they're so incredibly foundational to who you went on to become because everything from you know the start of your journey till now proves that you are clearly an outlier in every way so tell me below the age of 18 what were the factors that went into making that person that went on to become this person well um i was nicknamed holly hurricane and that was because i couldn't wait to get to the next stage so when i um you know turned i think it was 12 i persuaded my dad that i needed to get a job in a pub cleaning it so he would wait outside in the car park at five o'clock in the morning I don't think I do this for my son by the way anymore but he would wait outside the um the pub and would um pick me up after my shift

I went on and then I just continually worked when my friends weren't working I um decided that you know I needed the first mobile phone, you know, one of those bricks. I think it was one-to-one. I think that it only worked in the M25. And so, I was just continually pushing it to be grown up or to be out of childhood, I think. And so, because I was, I think, and still am today, incredibly excited by life. I really wanted to juice life and I was ready to work. And I think work has always been an incredibly important thing. I remember at 15 becoming an intern for Publicist advertising agency on Baker Street. So as my friends would spend the summer out in the, you know, getting up to mischief, no doubt, I would be traveling up being on the day of my A-level results, my mum waited around

the corner and I went for a job interview on the same day I was getting these A-level results in the morning. And I got a job as the junior, junior team maker at Publicis Advertising Agency. And that I now call my sort of university of life. And then my mum got me in the car and we went to pick up my A level results, where I thought up until about a year ago, I got a D in business studies, I actually got an E. And that was just ironic, because that was the moment I started work. I celebrated my 18th birthday in the office. And I've been working ever since I'm 44 now. And so I think that that says a lot about who I was. I was just so eager to be in the big wide world. I remember my parents going on holiday and I was living at home. And I mean, again, if my son ever did this to me, I just

rented a place with some friends in Halston because I was working in Bake Street and just moved out. I just packed up the car and drove the car and text my parents to say, mum, dad, I've been me. I was dyslexic, didn't find out for my exams. I am definitely someone who has to work hard to achieve and always been creative. So that has been a constant in my life. I studied art at A-level and I created this huge sculpture that they had never had someone do before called Tom, Dick and Harry. And they actually cast it in bronze and had a crane pull it out of the art studio and had to take the windows out. And it's still there today at my school um because I I always go for it I

suppose um so yeah that was me you know but so when we say before the age of 18 you know I was in an office at the age of 18 um all my friends went to uni um and as I said I did this university of life thing um that work ethic was it at all influenced by your parents i know you say you're excited by life but was there an example set by your parents about work ethic um i think you know i was always fascinated by my father's role he was um a financial um a cefo at general electric and he traveled the world and I was always fascinated with what he did. My grandparents all had, you know, their own businesses and I was fascinated by that. My mother had a small business when I was younger. I think that always, you know,

how we get our money was always placed. We didn't have, you know, we weren't, we were fine, but money and where we got our money was always spoken about. So I very quickly realised you work to live. So that's what happens. And so if I wanted to go out, I needed to work for that money. So that has just, that was always part of me. So, you know, maybe that just led to me just continuing to work because that meant that you lived. And so, yeah, so I think that, but my work ethic, you know, again, we were talking off air, you know, I give it my all, you know, I lose myself in my work. It is me. And so that's an interesting thing as you get older. So you work at Publicis until you're 20 years old?

Yes, I worked there until I was about 21 years old. And then I got headhunted to move to Condé Nast. Meantime, I managed to marry my childhood sweetheart. Again, Hurricane Holly was in a hurry. So I bought a place, I got married. I need some context here. So your childhood sweetheart, you met him when he was... We were 14. 14. Wow. Okay, you're both 14. Yeah. And we got married at 21 and divorced by 24. And so it was an incredible, my early 20s were a very, very difficult period of time of my life because I had built up since I was 18, you know, I had built up this life in this world. And of course you get married then, right. And,

you know, you're going to have children and you've got a property in Chiswick and, you know, you're all there. And then sort of life pays you back or gives you, I don't say pay you back, that's the wrong way, gives you an interesting lesson, which is be careful to be in a hurry all the time. Just because you want it and you can get it

doesn't mean it's right. And so we found ourselves as natural human beings developing in our personalities and realizing that we weren't destined to be together forever. Meantime, I was diagnosed with a brain tumor, and that was fine. It wasn't fatal, but it had a lot of side effects. So at quite a young age, at sort of 23, 24-ish, I was dealing with a lot, full-time job, all these sorts of things. And again, I look at my son, who's about to turn 17, I think, wow, Holly, you were young to do all of this. So in my early 20s, a lot of things changed for me. And I had to slow down. I had to

lose full-time work. I had to become freelance. I had to lose full time work, I had to become freelance, I had to concentrate on my health, I had to get divorced. And so yeah, and that was the first knockdown. I would say I've had two of those in my life. And that was the first one. And it was pretty painful. You find out at 23, 24 years old that you've got a brain tumour. How did you find that out? I was just very poorly. I put on a lot of weight and I was just not functioning correctly. And in the end, with all pushing it, because also a young girl going to the doctor and pushing it with all the scans we found out. But as I said, it was, it was livable with and, you know, and that's something that's fine. But it caused just a huge amount of turmoil. And that's not to say I think my marriage would have ever lasted anyway. But it just created turmoil.

And I now think back to how tough your early 20s are you know I don't think I would repeat them um I think it's quite a difficult age you're meant to be grown up you're just still a kid trying to work everything out at the same yeah absolutely well especially you the situation you'd put yourself yeah exactly exactly yeah but you just think the world's against you and now I just realized it was a it was a great kick up the butt. And so you go into freelance work, you're separated from this partner. You've learned the lessons there, hopefully. Yeah. You've understood the situation with your health. Yeah. You didn't have to have an operation. No, no, couldn't have one. No. Yeah. I was, I asked that particular question because I actually found out last week that one of my one of my best friends has a brain tumour and I and I was intrigued by the array of emotions

that you felt in that moment and I asked that question from a supportive friend standpoint as how you support someone that's that's um found that out I think she's 24 24 and she found out she found out two weeks ago that she's had a brain tumour and they put her into an operation the next Tuesday. Wow. Because of the severity of the situation. So she's just come out of the operation last night. Oh, I really wish her well. I mean, mine wasn't, you know, it wasn't that serious. So, you know, that was something that I was very, very lucky about. But I think one of the things was, is that I had to find, you know, twice in my life, I've had to find out who I am again. Because when you pull

your identity into something else that's not yourself, or it becomes your identity, I think we all do that in relationships sometimes, you know, that you are married or, you know, that's what I did as a young girl. So then when it all fell apart, who am I? And that was a really difficult moment for me. And slightly the thing that saved me was going back to my creative roots. You know, if I hadn't gone to the University of Life, I was going to go and do an art degree. So creativity sort of saved me. And I, I went on to, you know, create vegetable wreaths, which again, I just always think, you know, the story needs to be sexier than the vegetable wreath, but there it was. And I built this wreath and I went down to my local high street to try and sell it. And I was just freelancing at that time in publishing,

but this was allowing me to be creative in the evening. Why vegetable wreaths though um you know it was just i needed to be creative i love i love interiors and i've always you know at the age my 14th birthday present was a subscription to the world of interiors um so you know that has just been something i have to have a creative environment to exist in so my home right now is a shrine to not on the high street, I had to move house to get bigger and bigger homes just to hold what you know, you can imagine what I'm surrounded by. And so that was just glorious

for me, you know, why not? I just did it. And then that was this path that just opened up to me because I realised that I needed to sell these things because I was going to obviously become a millionaire you know for reinventing the wreath because that's what need was needed in the world and I realised that actually there wasn't any local fair that I could go and sell it so again if you dream it up you can make it happen so I created the first Chiswick Christmas Fair with 200 stalls so that I could get the best stall. You say that like it's so simple because a lot of people, A, wouldn't even,

they would have had the reef idea and never done anything about it. And then when they realised that they couldn't sell it anywhere, they would have never done anything about that as well. But there's clearly something that underpins that perspective that, okay, well, that doesn't exist, so I can create that.

And then, well, that doesn't exist, so I'll create that to support that. That's my DNA DNA that's what I'm doing now at Holly & Co it's what I did at Notting High Street I don't look just because it doesn't exist doesn't even bother me it's actually just part of the fun of building I'm I'm I love building I love what about the risk Holly um well what risk because um you know what was going to go wrong there people weren't going to come to the fair I knew that they would I knew that they'd like my wreaths because they were good I didn't see risk you know I I I just went into it and I created this event and it kicked off it was amazing amazing. Sold all my wreaths, hated wreaths by the end of the thing. Was not going to have that career, but now I was going to have a

fair career. I was going to put on events. So I quit my job and told my dad, who's my, been my CFO, not in the high street and his CFO at Holly & Co. And just said, right, that's what I'm now going to do and so I delivered all the wreaths got rid of that out of my household and I then created these events and put on 20 events around London with small businesses and that was almost you know again a pretty bad existence because I was on my own putting on these events it It was, you know, pouring with rain one day. You can't control the weather. You can't control the football being changed. You can't do anything. But what it did do is it made me realise my total love for small businesses and what they

create because I curated all of those stalls. And I could see that there was absolute hidden treasure that no one else had discovered before. And so the town hall roof, I suppose, was the prototype to Not in the High Street. I want to go back to something you said a second ago, which was about that moment where you kind of lose orientation, your marriage has ended. Because I just think so many people listening to this either have gone through that or going through that or going to go through that moment where they have a significant life change,

which completely makes them unanchored from what their like purposes and who they are. And I'm fascinated by how long that process lasted for you and what advice you'd give to someone who, because I experienced it a little bit when I like left my business or actually the first time I experienced it was when someone made me a really big offer for my business and then I went home that day and like mentally spent the money and thought well then what who am I yeah well who am I now like yeah because your whole

identity was attached to this business so who am I so like what advice would you have for someone um that's going through that sort of like loss of direction because there's been a significant life change and they they don't know you know who they are or which way to go anymore well it's actually something that now I have a a word for um whereas at the time it was a sort of process when I consult with small businesses um and I I don't now do one-on-ones but in my book for instance it's called a brand heart and it's basically I believe that a business has a heart and everything has to come off it you know that's the pumping organ that everything should come back to now you as a founder need to understand what should go into that heart,

and it actually should be made up of you. So I think what I did was I went back to, so what makes Holly exist? What makes Holly alive? And through that process, which was about a year, and my second one, which will come to probably, you know, lasted two or three years, was creativity was one. Discovering creative folk, my community, who was I meant to belong to, building, entrepreneurism. All these elements were coming through. I was lucky at the end of the first this year I actually met my partner um he's been my partner for 18 years and I got married in lockdown so now he's my husband um so I was lucky to find somebody um and he did a lot of cheerleading for me you know sort of because when you're in that place

you don't really you don't have a perspective on anything that you can give anymore and so I think that's another incredibly important thing is to surround yourself with people who adore you and are willing to tell you what makes you what what makes the sunshine out of you you know what that is and so I was lucky to have that but that brand heart like the who is Holly just cutting it up into five pieces and say okay if there were five things that I've got to concentrate on to bring to restore me what are they um but it's a pretty painful process what role does patience play from in all of that process well none at the beginning i mean zero patience i have hurricane holly i mean do you know what i mean now i've got a little bit more you know actually i'm enjoying that

getting older and just having a slight um listening more um not running so fast, and picking up the cues along the way, which I think I probably missed the first time around. So I'm actually really happy to become more patient. I mean, we'll put it in perspective, you know, I'm, you know, I'm very ambitious. So, but I am actually learning to listen, to listen to the world a bit more. And even, even though you've cut your heart into five pieces there to dissect who you actually are, that doesn't necessarily mean, you know, the, the path in terms of like the business idea that's going to get you, get you there or the career, but you know, the fundamental principles of what you're looking for. And then what you need to do, like experiment, do something. Yeah. Well, actually that's not what I did for

Nottingham High Street, but it is what we've done for Holly & Co. Because that was the, you know, that's the point, isn't it? You learn, you know, from Nottingham High Street and Holly & Co. I have learned, I don't want to do it all again as i did but not on high street so i don't want a final destination when you take vc money on you have some final destinations that you you know you've turned right and not left so always your course of direction will be to the right with holly and co what i loved was not not having that and also being able to, you know, when people said, so what is Holly & Co? I could barely explain it. I didn't have an elevator pitch. I didn't want to fall into that. Actually, I think that is the beauty of what I was looking to do, but I did have a brand heart. I knew that we had that. I didn't have the final destination,

but I have the coordinates of a few places I know to go and I know that I am you know I know the direction I'm heading I always call it like an anchor you know I've got an anchor in the future I've got the rope that I'm holding and that rope will change change it will pull me to the right and left but I am anchored um uh yeah and um and I'm enjoying that that's what I'm really enjoying so i've got a we've got to go through this um this uh not on the high street story because i when i was reading um about your journey up until this point and the experience you'd had in you know working on you know creating a market refer for for these small businesses and then to go from there to trying to create a

e-commerce site in the year that you did I thought was just madness and I think about entrepreneurs coming into the den and um one of the questions I always ask them is like have you got tech experience yeah who's who's got the technical sort of competence within the team show me what you know yeah and from looking at what your journey up until that point you didn't have any of that stuff yeah no none how beautiful is naivety well yeah delusion yeah it is awesome you know I look at it you know before when I was in it in it you know I thought oh my gosh there's so many things that we needed to have done before now I look at it and I think could I just bottle up that naivety and just take a swig of it every single day? You know, naivety is the thing. If we had

known really that we were creating one of the first marketplaces in the world, you know, at that point in time, there was eBay and Amazon. Amazon was still selling books. eBay had, you know, your socks that you got for Christmas and the, you know, the title was one, two, three grandma's socks. Etsy hadn't launched yet. We were basically looking at, you know, like many businesses start a human problem that we were experiencing

and thought we could create a solution. And all we needed to do was take all those small businesses that were under my town hall roof and just put them on this thing called the internet. And then wouldn't it be great if you could shop from, you know, Lily Bell and shop from the letter room and put it into one basket? Well, of course. Okay. Well, we got 20 grand. So let's build a website for 20,000 pounds.

And we found someone who could do that. Big watch out there. And funny enough, three days before launch, we realised that they couldn't do that, you know, that there was no checkout. But because again, there was no experience, we had already told the whole world with a microsite that was counting down the days to launch, and all the press that we were very able to get, that we were launching on this specific day, the 3rd of April. So this 20 grand, where did that come from? Well, the startup that Sophie and I had, so I, the story is that basically after your local fair, I had a three month old boy

called Harry with my now husband, Frank. And I realised that I couldn't ignore what I had witnessed. When you put a group of small businesses together that are like-minded and bring together discerning customers, there's something that happens there. The high street was dying and I needed to do that. But I knew I didn't want to do it alone. After Your Local Fair, which was my fair business, I couldn't do it alone. So I just wrote to my old boss, Sophie, from Publicis. So she was my boss, saying, you know, I basically don't think there's anyone else on the planet that has the yin to my yang, you know, is able to rewrite the English dictionary and can be that person and so I wrote to her and I still got the email and it says you know I want to bring everything that's not on the high street

together but I had a terrible beta name and 24 hours later she said yes because she was that customer too she wanted to find the curious, discover the small businesses and things. But I had a three-month-old baby. That wasn't going to stop me. And so we went on this journey to build it. And as I said, we tried to build a marketplace with no tech experience or retail experience, but we knew what we wanted. And so we pulled together a few savings. We were both with young children. Our husbands were working to pay for the mortgage. We got a loan from a bank, very small loan, and we remortgaged our homes slightly, both of us. So I think we came to it with about £80,000, thinking that we had contingency in there. I mean, everything. And funny enough,

we didn't have enough money. But we launched on the 3rd of April with no checkout to our shopping site. Why was there no checkout? Well, because funny enough, eBay couldn't even build a multi-partner checkout with one basket. You know, no one had yet actually done that technology. So, and I remember naively calling, you know, calling eBay, just picking up the phone to eBay, thinking, I don't know who I'm going to get through to. Hey, hi, is that the CTO? You know that stuff you're building there's any chance uh i could have it too uh because we're dealing with a company in cornwall who uh has let us down um

so we didn't you know this hadn't been built yet this this this functionality and so uh we launched we called it a press preview and we just pivoted and we were on something called Daily Candy, which was huge at the time. We were on the Daily Mail front cover, all this sort of stuff. It was great. So we got all the traffic, but no one could check out. But, you know, as mother lions that we were, and I always liken businesses to being a parent, something that in my latter years was frowned upon by the VCs. Because actually, I do believe that when you have that spirit of a parent, you can lift a car off a child. When you're a founder, and literally you're launching a shopping site with no checkout, what are you going to do? And so we found someone who in two weeks built the technology that ebay were building in america

and we just relaunched and we nailed it did you run out of money in those early yeah yeah totally we ran out money we launched in the april and we're running out of money in the july um because funny enough technology costs a lot of money especially when it's never been built before and um and so we had to go and raise money and that was one heck of an experience because if you want to take yourself back to 2006 um when we know one percent of VC money right now goes to women, what do you think the statistic was then? So we would pack up our personalised bags, we get on the tube, no money for taxis, we would knock on the doors with meetings, you know, that people knew someone who knew someone.

And we go and pitch the idea of Not On The High Street to the land of VCs, who pretty much 100% would tell us that their wives did the shopping in their household. And that it was lovely that us women wanted to create a crafts website, but really there was nothing in it. And I just said, well, we're actually going to change the face of retailing funny enough it's not a craft website and um that continued right up until the christmas and we were now paying our staff on our egg credit card checkbooks we were my parents remortgaged their house twice uh sophie's parents uh lent us money i mean it was dark. I mean, not in the high street, it was definitely on its last breath. But the issue was it was working. You know, it hadn't been working up until that point. We used to have a bell that you would ring when there was a checkout of £30 and we were taking 10%. And this bell would ring every second day. And we were just

thinking, my God, this is just hell. But just as we were really running out of money, the bell just kept on ringing. It was happening because it was Christmas and people wanted great gifts. So that was an extraordinary journey, but one that ended well, because we found someone who understood what we were building. And by the February 2007, we got our first round of investment. How long did that take to find that person? So from when you realised you had to start fundraising to the point when you, the money hit your bank, let's say? Well, it must have been eight months. But when we were pitching, it was just before Christmas. And I remember just telling him, we hadn't got our first set of accounts yet. You know, we were there. And I remember my father

being in the pitch meeting and, you know, we were putting what we were doing there, obviously avoiding the conversation that we were paying the staff with our credit card checkbooks, you know, like everything is fine. Oh my gosh. You know, it's like every time you raise any money, the graphs only go, you know, through the sky and how you're going to do it. We'll work it out. Um, but it was an amazing, uh, moment. And, uh, Tom Teichman, who was the investor had just written the first check for lastminute.com and he saw what we were trying to do. And he actually saw the power of female, female purchases, and that whole world. And so we did

the pitch. And he, you know, he played with us. He basically said, that's great. Thank you so much. And we packed up and we left. And my father said, I'm so proud of you both, knowing that not in the high street just died, that we hadn't got the money. And it was finished because our homes were on the line. It was finished. And just as we pressed the bell for the elevator, he said, actually, do you have a moment? And he bought a bottle of champagne and that was it. Our destinies changed, but that was how close we were um but you know we definitely turned right that meant we got our first VC fantastic and then um you know we started building not in high street and it was growing very very quickly was it ever going to fail in your view I know you came close but was it ever going to fail not at all never isn't that funny never never never you know at the same time that we were running out of money i was buying every single url for

the whole world so we couldn't pay for the heating so we had coats on between you know 9 a.m and 2 that was the coldest period in our office and then the because the whole building was being knocked down but we just kept our office so we we had no boiler, no heating, but I was still buying the URLs across the globe. And, and to this day, I think it's one of the most fantastic businesses. But never would it fail ever because, you know, as a parent, you know, if your child had any issue, would you not think that you could overcome those issues absolutely and that's the resolute resolute that you need to be in business it's why I call not in high street my first business baby Holly and Co my second I love them as if they are my children and they will get my my full attention you just said there that you know the company was completely

out of money but I but I I could tell that you also didn't believe it would fail which is a bit of a contradiction to some degree but well because it was just money yeah and you could you could you figure that out i don't know how yeah but you know you know money is just this you know okay so if we got the money and the hard bit really is doing the doing isn't it it's building it so I always just knew somehow this will work out I mean of course you have your terrible dark days but I knew it was going to work out how could it not we were on to something and I knew that that level of optimism in upon reflection of your career of the last you know couple of decades how important has that optimism been that just like unexplainable unjustifiable I don't know why but it'll just

it will all work out optimism because you've also because you because you've employed a lot of people seeing the opposite that sense of like catastrophe you know that catastrophizing oh no we're fucked you know that kind of oh yeah oh man I've kissed a lot of those frogs um yeah wouldn't you say that that's a common denominator you find in entrepreneurs 100% I mean even in team members someone so I've I it's so I so I can't explain it enough one example I always come back to was um I was flying to Brazil and Obama was speaking at the same time as me um on the same stage as me, just like speaking just after me. And I thought, well, Obama's here.

I'm a speaker. He's a speaker. Can't I meet him? And someone that was working for me at the time went, oh no, I asked somebody and they said no. Sick as a fuck if they said no. Ask someone else and just keep asking. And then they were like, no, no, no, Steve, we've been asking a lot.

They just said no. So I was, I'll do it then and I I sent some emails and within 30 uh within 30 emails someone comes and grabs me goes come and meet Obama yeah and I just think there's always a way there's always a way and your life and my life is testament to this upset this like there is a way or there's a way that's you know what I mean or it's there's a's a way. That's, you know what I mean? There's a way or I have to work harder. That's it. You know what I mean? And I don't allow for this other outcome,

which is that, oh, no, we can't. I've never allowed for the other outcome ever. And it's actually my entire battery is powered by that. And I am told I radiate it. So when you're around me, you get hooked onto that. And that's, can be a really good thing because it drives people in those dark days when actually the entire world is telling you no, and I'm saying yes. And so it's an amazing thing. And I think that optimism and actually now, as I said, getting older, it's actually, I would say there's optimism.

And now I also have gratitude and that's powering my battery. You know, I worked out my 40th birthday. I have 29,000 days on this planet because I'm as another golden thread. I'm sure you recognize its efficiency. I'm frigging addicted to it. So I needed to know. So, you know, this life, i just need to schedule this a bit so you know so i've got 29 000 days oh shit it's not 29 000 days it's 14 000 days because i'm 40 right okay and so that has also led to a countdown till I die. So that also has fueled this optimism

and fuck it mentality. Because if today I am going to change the world, which I can, it's even fueled even in a better way, actually. I didn't have that at Nottingham High Street because that was just, you know, firefighting and optimism was that fuel. But now I think I have gratitude

powering that even more and that's been in a beautiful beautiful stage of my life that is amazing and you're right so you're you're in survival mode and now you're now you've got choice now I've got choice and a bit of know, the battle scars are there. And I have an appreciation that, you know, I can give everything and all, but I need to make sure that my time on the planet is also for me too. Because I do believe I'm here to serve. And I've, again, I can only say that now in hindsight. But if I am am here to serve I need to also serve myself that sense of by the way I completely um resonate with the this um this focus on the amount of time we have left I wrote about it in my book at very long length and you I think somewhere behind me

there's a little sand timer somewhere on there there's usually a sand timer I don't know it seems to walk around but because I wrote about it in my book at such length people started buying sand timers and and uploading them online and the whole point of the sand timer is it's one of the things that really allows me it reminds me of time it's like one of the ways we can see time happening just by turning it you see your life moving away and it's that important reminder to like get on with it and focus on what matters you mentioned um you now feel like you're here to serve do you think that comes from understanding your own power yeah I think so I think so I I would have found that really you 20 years ago. But now I have been through it and done it. And I also know that my optimism helps people. And I can see the effects and I can see, you know, what we brought up in Not

in the High Street was full of it. You know, I used to have people come in to the office from other businesses that we would hire. They literally could feel it in the air. They were uncomfortable with it. It was optimistic. It was creative. It was emotional. And they were like, this place is so emotional. And I'm like, yeah. And they're like, we need to stop that. And I'm like, we're never stopping that. And I think that that's what I've realized is that that is what I can muster up. You know, I listened to one of my favorite songs is Cloud Busting by Kate Bush. And when I listened to that song, I feel like I'm whipping up a storm. And that is my power. But what I try and whip up is very positive and good for the soul good for small

businesses good for and what are small businesses they're founders with dreams you know I love that and so um that is why I've written potentially that is now my job description um for the rest of my life is to build something that I can pour that in and be efficient and so amplify it so not build an empire but be really smart and amplify that feeling out to other people and help them there's an irony in that that you're talking about whipping up a storm and your nickname's hurricane holly yeah actually i've never even said that before and so yes i like that link that just happened there slightly different meaning now it's not less about urgency and more about I guess just

power but yes exactly yeah yeah two different weather types yeah yeah so take me back so you start not on the high street it starts moving you've got the VC money things you know team is small things are agile typically the most fun times yeah yeah the team was small um myself Sophie I hired my sister um who was just going to help me out for a summer uh she still works for me at Holly and Co so that's been a good 16 17 years that we've worked together now um Hired then her university friend. Her university friend came and coded the site. That, you know, it's that beautiful moment that you're just literally,

do you have a pulse and do you breathe? Okay, would you like to come and work for us? You know, I was talking to somebody the other day and he said, it's that wonderful naivety where you get in a car and the cab and the taxi driver's really, really chatty. And so you almost go and offer them a job because it's just this moment where you need soldiers. You know, that's that time, isn't it? You don't need the skill. We need

power and we need energy and we need commitment and we need you not to have a high salary. That's that moment in time. And so that was what it was. And you know, we were growing at 2000%. We were trying to keep up with it. I call it like that speed train with all the nuts and bolts are flying off and you're at the driving seat. And there you're going. And as you said, with optimism, that energy is just just infectious and so we just were growing so rapidly so we were going from a hundred thousand pounds ttv to a million the next year to two and a half million to six million now keeping up with that and also remember in a marketplace you have two clients yeah i always laugh at people that moan about having one

client, like try to, you know, you've got your customers, and you've got all the small businesses, which by the way, you are only as great as their ability to keep up with 2000% growth. Some of them are growing at 5000% because they're the hot product. And so it's that coaching of that group of people to keep up with you. Meanwhile, you know, the swan to the customers and the swan to the partners, which we call them partners from day one, you know, they weren't sellers. We were only as great as they were. And that was that beautiful shift that we were creating in this world. We were respecting small businesses. They would get a media pack that cost us way too much. I think about five pounds per thing. But we wanted them to know how talented they were.

We curated from day one, which now, you know, is a word we use a lot. Back then, it was not a word. You know, why aren't you accepting everybody? And we would be no we're turning away 90 of everyone that joins even though they're paying a joining fee and we're eating baked beans and worrying about the mortgage we're not getting paid a salary we will turn away 90 because one day our brand will thank us for it and it did it very very much did you talk there

about hiring and that flippant hiring process at the start, which I know very well. And I've joked about on this podcast before, like walking into Prada and the guy selling the bags was like, do you want to be a director? I was like, and then like I had some guy on Facebook who's called Ash, one of my good friends now. And he even laughs about it. He was on Job Seeker's Allowance. He'd never done a job in his life. I made him marketing director. And I was 18 and I was just like, fuck it. You know, like, yeah, you'll do. But you're like, what's the worst? I don don't think i think this could work out right imagine if it does work out that the taxi driver is going to be amazing that is great funny enough it doesn't

necessarily work out that way almost never so but it's just i think the interview process when you're that naive is literally would you work for me and they go yep fine you've got the job yeah or is their salary low enough that's actually double bonus yeah absolutely yeah it's it's a crazy thing the hiring process has been again on reflection something I'm learning right now to do is that would probably be one of the most beautiful points of building Holly & Co is my team and investing heavily in the development of each one of the souls that I think are lifers with me. Now, at Not On The High Street, it was the soldiers. You needed the energy. And then you get into the next stage, don't you, where actually those people, by very nature, can't stay with the

business because now you need skill. And there's that awful moment where you're having to let people go for the first time and bring in skill. And to bring in skill, you now need to interview, don't you? And you now need to be able to know even what the skill is that you're even looking for as you're running at 200 miles an hour. And then it goes into that next stage where you're now looking for the people to run the people who you just hired, you know, and that process for me was not something CEO should have been the people. 90% of my role was not the people because how on earth could it be? I mean, you know, you were, the next raise was happening

or we were going international or, you know, we've decided to double the company in a year. And now on reflection, when I look at that, oh, it's the people. So with Holly & Co, I've now got a good group of people that I believe are lifers. And I'm happy to say that because what I believe is that they don't even know how great they are. And I'm going to shine their diamond until it completely shines. And that's dealing with their personal side, that's dealing with their professional skills, that's dealing with their whole self.

And that is something I'm fascinated by. And I think I'm potentially going to build one of the most incredible teams that I've ever been lucky enough to manage. And you've learned those people. I just, everything you said that I'm not, I just agree with it all. I agree with every single word because I went through the same, exactly the same journey of hiring anybody, bringing in skill, bringing in a bunch of people that had done this job for 20 years to tell me what to do. And I got out of the way and I let them run the team and do all the hiring for me. But then I also had the reflection three, four years in that, in fact, this whole time, what I actually was was a recruitment company and that was my sole responsibility yeah and then you look at all the people there and you go to the kitchen that I I

would and I would be getting a cup of tea and I wouldn't know the person to my left how terrible is that and also that you realize when you get that c-suite in because that's what we need to do because we've now got vcs and we need to get the the huge company coos and the cfos and all the c's um i call it um in that they just then recruit the carbon copies of themselves so suddenly you've got an entire organisation of many, you know, of those people. And actually, my gosh, suddenly the pendulum swings. So for Not On The High Street, remember, we always used to say, you know, we've got our marketplace hat on one day. So that is about trading the site and understanding what customers

need. And then we've got our retail hat on, which is the brand, because we're not in the high street. We're not eBay. We're not Amazon. We are not on the high street. We are that beautiful mix because we know our customer. And so that was very interesting because actually what you need and require to be able to curate unique products and unique companies is creativity, eyeballs, taste, all these things that are unable to excel. You cannot put, you know, many times I've been asked, can you just please tell me the process between A and Z of a great product? And I'm like, you see, you even asking me that, my dear, means that you don't even understand what makes a great Knot on the High Street product. So that was the difficulty

is that suddenly you would get too much of the process in, too much of the operations. Everything was a meeting. Everything was a PowerPoint, everything. And that room for creativity and life and entrepreneurial spirit started being pushed to the side. And that was a very difficult period in time. You know, we were, you know, still growing so incredibly quickly. So it was a difficult moment to try and balance that state of growth and tech issues and operational issues and funny enough, HR issues, when you have enough people with that need to be what I call truffle hunters now, you know, people that can really find the most unique, amazing small business that will create the next bestsellers. Did you find yourself at war with the business you'd created? I I loved it so again if I look at being a parent I loved it but I didn't enjoy them right now

you know I found them difficult to live with you know and that's what I would say it's you never lose your love you never lose the but actually what was happening was the process had become so big that the core of what I loved, Founder Titus, you know, the Duracell battery, you know, that is why founders are unbelievable, should never be moved from a business, whatever, should maybe take a new role, that's okay, because actually they don't enjoy the role of the operations. But that sort of Duracell battery, when you take it out of a business, you know it. I'm sure you've interviewed many people that you, something goes, the customer even knows it, everyone knows it. And so that was, that's just been a brilliant

lesson for me, but also a lesson that I now pass on through Holly & Co. You know, Holly & Co. is all about me being vulnerable with the truth and hopefully inspiring other people that when they're growing their small business and they think they're going to hire the next person that's going to be the silver bullet, A, there is zero silver bullets in business, but B, it doesn't work without you. You know, for all your defects and all your faults and all your weaknesses, it just doesn't work without you. And was there a moment where you realised that you'd have to take a different role within the business?

Yeah, I suppose it got to that point where 200 people, five VCs, I was chairwoman and CEO. And things were changing. You know, I was, you know, 15 meetings a day, running to the loo with my PA, who would then brief me as I was in the loo on my next meeting to go into my office where it was already set up to be countlessly doing board meetings. You you know one board meeting would finish and we'd be preparing for the next board meeting um and basically being at at a stage where in any given day did I do anything that I loved you know my new book is do what you love love what you do you know I brought up this business that I loved but every single day did I actually ever do what I loved and there was that moment where I needed to make that decision um and it was a pretty goddamn painful

one where I sort of realized I'd lost myself. You know, I was, I didn't look like I look today. You know, I was in the tube dress with the high heels on, double spanks on. I was a she-man. You know, I needed to be that person. I was brought up. Remember, I was 28 when I started. I was brought up through Not on the High Street and the experience. That's all my reference point was. And so I knew I needed to dull motion and, you know, drive this and be this person. And I think I was probably in reflection tired of not being Holly. Could you feel it? Yeah, yeah, yeah. What was was that feeling but i didn't know at the time like you were just saying i was just in the motion i was a hamster in the wheel you don't know any

different you know you just exist don't you and your whole purpose is to fuel everybody else and sort of you you realize that when you're not there things go off the rails and so you have this sense of responsibility. And every night I went to sleep, I would lay on my pillow. I would have my son as my responsibility. I would have my home. I was the main breadwinner of our home. But I would have the thousands of small businesses that if I go wrong ever, you know, a lot of them, 50% of them relied on that this was their only income. Their husbands had quit their job. You know, they they were doing million pounds two million pounds a year like this was my responsibility and the staff were my responsibility so I had this heaviness so how could I be light Holly how could I smile or laugh I you know I found myself becoming a different version of me

um one of the lines that Holly & Co is bringing colour to grey, and I think I was turning grey. Did your partner know that, Frank? Yeah, yeah, you know, definitely knew that. We were in a catch-22 though, you know, when you bring up a business that's providing the only income, there's no way out, you know, how does this go somewhere? Because my ambition, you couldn't stop me. I was on the hamster wheel. I could see everything. You know, I always have to be reminded what year I'm in because I can see what the future is. I know what it is. So why I just need now need to make it happen. That's the part. So, you know, we, we nearly didn't survive a few times during that time, you know, being an entrepreneur and having a relationship is a very, very difficult thing.

Because, and having a young child, you know, Harry was three months old when I started Knott. If the nanny didn't arrive, he was put under my desk. You know, I remember at the age of two, he was under my desk. He had a DVD player. You remember where you actually put the DVD and you open the screen and you put the headphones on. Watsits and Ribena. And I would just sort of shuffle him in there. There used to be a program called Mr. Brittis

where she used to talk about putting the baby in the drawer when Mr. Brittis, that was what Harry was. He was under the thing because being a woman and a mother, no. You know, the kid doesn't come to work. Even though I was the boss, but it was their mindset. No, we are tech female entrepreneurs. We have got to be a certain way. And so that was very challenging and it puts a strain on relationships. And so that has just been difficult. You know,

you know, the downs are very down, dark, dark days when you're running out of money, you've got to raise again. But the business is going amazingly. You have no choice. Let's do it again. And, you know, your family takes a toll. And that decision to sort of change your role, that's not a decision that's made overnight.

That's a slow sort of grinding down. And other conversations up until that point with the board and with other people and with frank or yeah there was i mean it was a bit of a storm of lots of things i can't quite remember what was going on at that point in time but it was you know another christmas was coming up it's going to be double what that is coming in um a very full c-suite managing that group of people um being at you know now vcs are really waking up you know what we're doing where you know i think we were at 100 over 100 million ttv you know this was starting to become something it was about internationalization so doing it all again but in other countries and um there was just this point that

that needed to probably not be my existence in the future so um ripped off the plaster and did it and decided to get a seasoned ceo to come and replace me um sophie had left the business at this point a few years before. So I was, her children were at a different stage of life, were older than Harry. So again, as a mother, it's okay when they're little. And she gave me that great advice, you know, don't worry, you've missed his first steps. He won't remember. But when they're doing their GCSEs and A-levels, they freaking need mum. And so she, you know, I realised that I was, again, I thought I could do it all. And I just now on hindsight, my father had left a CFO two years before that. So I was sort of on my tod. I was now this woman with this group, with these VCs. And, you know, you're always plagued with the imposter syndrome. And I think that I allowed that to, you know, determine a few things in my life. Now I look back, thank goodness for that. Because what I'm doing today, I have never felt more powerful. I've never felt

more holly. I've never felt more colourful. I've never felt more of a founder than I do today. And I'm in complete control. But when we go back to the story of the two times in my life that I lost my identity, might I not have ripped the plaster off if I'd known what I was going to go through? Because I'm sure you've had people describe it. It is not funny losing, leaving your business. If we relate it to a child, how does a mother walk away from his kid? You know, talk to me about that process. Yeah, it's a very, very hard one. I think actually, so many more people need to talk about it. Because I think it's like a bit of a dark secret. Like, it's it's that thing. We're all bound by certain things, all this sort of our egos at play here.

You know, there's so many our shame are all those points. And I wish more founders spoke about this moment because it's your entire identity goes now. Now I had built, I was just, you know, hi, what do you do? I'm the CEO of Not On The High Street. Really? You know, when you wake up in the day, it's all those emails. It's all that responsibility, the pressure on your shoulders. Wake up the next day, what do you do? You just forget to even say you found not, you know, you were the founder of Not On The High Street, but you're nothing. So I had a couple of years that were maybe two, three years, two years, dark years where, you know at stages, I couldn't get out of bed. But, you know, so when I had to do it all again, you know, I had to look at my brand heart, I had to surround myself with

people who could raise the phoenix out of the ashes. But it was difficult, You know, I couldn't go to events with small businesses. I would, you know, break down. I would have to leave. I couldn't see people that I knew. I couldn't meet socially with people because I just didn't know who I was. And it was just a very difficult time in my life. How old were you at this this time well I must have been uh 39 no 40 40 and what you're describing there in terms of symptoms sounds like depression that phase is actually what I think it is sounds like is um what I think now I think it is is grief grief yeah I went through I went through the seven stages of grief I um it really was a loss you know that was what I was and especially as I'd always likened it to my child you know I had Harry my real baby and I had not in the high street now I wasn't with my second baby so how can a mother do that to start with? What happens when I'm not there? It's going to

fall and I'm not going to be there to pick it up. So it was a very, very difficult process. But as I said, you know, I went through total grief. I got counselling. I surrounded myself with great people. I instantly had to start building. You know, it was the only thing I knew in my head. So six months later, my sister was employed by Notting High Street. She left, someone else left who's now my other co-founder, and we would sit around my kitchen table um i decided to ditch the heels so i threw away every single pair of high heels i owned um today i'm wearing glitter trainers and i have done for five years to really say that actually you can be a very powerful knowledgeable

businesswoman and wear glitter trainers and actually this is ho. And so slowly I started peeling the spanks off the heels. I slowly started rediscovering who Holly was. I had some cheerleaders around me who would remind me on the darkest days. And I knew that creativity, like it had done with the vegetable wreaths, was there as my saviour. What I had to be is Holly again. And Holly is only Holly, I think, with a business within her. And when I say business and what I'm trying to rediscover with Holly & Co and trying to put it out there is actually, it's not just business. I believe creating a business makes you happy. And actually, striving for happiness, I think that when you can control your own destiny, you can work around your family, when you can be your most creative self,

when you can answer to nobody, when you can dictate all of these things, where you live, what you do, that is a real source of going for happiness. And so actually people do ask me, why are you freaking obsessed with business, Holly? Like redefining business. What is it about business? I'm like, it's not about business. Business is a tool and a key. Business is just the thing, the vehicle to get all these other things. And that is why Holly and Co sort of had to exist. I did say to my husband never again you know because he couldn't do you know what I mean it's huge the whole family goes through your storm you're whipping up but my yeah they go oh yeah but when you give them enough glasses of wine

and you can sell anything to anybody you can definitely tell them so my sisters uh carrie my actual sister gabby who left not in the high street and has become almost like an adopted sister but with the founders of holly and co they basically said you can't ignore your bird's eye point of view that you had that is unique to not in the high street you saw thousands upon thousands of businesses grow from nothing to where they are today. Because all I was obsessed with was the common denominators. They all felt alone, and yet they were going through the same thing. And I remember when we built Nottingham High Street, naively, I thought we could have a

consumer site, but i knew very quickly that they would need a b2b site because as they were growing they would need the tools so i said to myself well we'll build two sites when we launch not on high street obviously that didn't happen um now that b2b site was on the agenda not on the high, every year for 11 years. And actually now I think that Holly & Co is my B2B scratch that I've itched. But when you talk about business, normally it's done in a certain way, in a 2D way, in a grayer way. And my plight was to help the dreamers. We have a phrase, dream, dabble, do at Holly & Co. I want to help the dreamers become doers. And I want to help the dreamers. We have a phrase, dream, dabble, do at Holly & Co. I want to help the dreamers become doers. And I want to help the dreamers go for it. And I want to help the doers

never give up. And so that means you need to give business a facelift. And so that is what I'm trying to do is create a bubble, an existence for these small businesses to live in, where I sort of with my knowledge have created a world where I answer the needs, you know, you don't need to have a business plan. You need to have a plan. You know, one day you might need to have a business plan to raise money, but you need to have a plan. And the second you take that, you pop that balloon, people start coming alive. And so that is why Holly & Co was where my sisters say, you can't ignore that. And that was the moment. Holly, do you know how much knowledge you have in your head that you need to share?

And there's this of service part that came through. And I think as I rose from those ashes, as my wings became colourful, service was written on my back. And that has now allowed me to put myself out there as quite a private person. But because I'm of service, it doesn't matter what I feel. It's what I can do for others. And that has just been the, again, that's the fuel in my Duracell battery that just gets me up every single day. You refer to Holly & Co as being a good life business. Yeah. Well, I refer to it being a good life business, but I also want to abolish the word SME. You know, I think that there's a whole new language that even needs

to come into business. And I'm not talking about businesses who want to float on the stock exchange. I'm not talking about tech businesses. I'm talking about 99.9% of all businesses in the UK are small and medium, right? I'm talking about that when the founder sat around a kitchen table in their slippers and has come up with a great idea. they find themselves with 50 people i want to always remind them that they were the founder with slippers with that crazy idea and that i hear them and i see them and i feel them and i want to create something for them so the It sounds very personal. Because I really, you know, I'm of service. I care about people enormously. You know, I feel emotional when I talk about it. I want them to have the best life that they can have. And I really live in gratitude because I'm experiencing it and I want others to and I think I could be the key so that is my power and so one of the things I say to people is you know they're not comfortable calling themselves entrepreneurs they don't want to be an SME hi my name's Julia and I'm an SME they don't want to know, so I say you run a good life company. You balance your creativity

and your need to drop off the kids and pick them up and have family life and take August off, right? With your ambition, profitability, growth, and your own little empire building. You know, those are the two things that you balance. And that's a good life. You're not looking to get Necker Island at the end. You've already, and what I always say to people is, have you ever looked at where you want to be when you're 80? You know, it's a lot of people don't, by the way. So if you want to be in your business, you know, right now my son's working at Holly and Co's training as a barista. You know, he was three months old. He's nearly 17. He towers above me as a strong man that I thought I was going to fuck up definitely as a baby. I'm so proud of him. He has his own business.

You know, that is the good life. I have brought up the next generation that needs to understand entrepreneurism. Do I want to exist in a world where he could be by my side in the future, where these group of this team that I've got can work with me for 20 years, where I take Fridays off and I go on a date with my husband. That's what my good life looks like. And so that is where, you know, I can see myself at 90 here. But I do ask people, have you looked at the future? Because you, by looking at the future, understanding that last point, you can work backwards. Because it's normally not all the riches, the Lamborghini, the, you know, all that thing that we see, don't we? Sunday Times rich list, you know, is that really where we're heading? Or is it a world where our

mental health is stable? We're with our family for as much as we can get when our health is good, where we're creatively fulfilled. We're changing the world, even if it's just your town, you're doing something. And that is why now people call themselves a good life business. And that requires, as you say, like a real change in narrative because Instagram and that external voice is telling you build, hire more people, make more money. And what I love about what you've said there as well is you're centering. So a lot of the, when you ask a business what their objective is, a lot of them will fall into the trap of, andon sinek talks about this saying we want to be the best or number one and just at the very end of my time at my business i stood in front of all of my employees in the office and said and explained why um why we had to remove that terminology from all of our um from all of our internal and external comms because um those it views life and our journey as

a um a finite game like we'd get to the number one on the scoreboard but then what then and if and because there's nothing then once you're number one or you're big or you've made whatever there's nothing then we try and shift the company towards a direction where we viewed it as like an an infinite game where um there isn't a scoreboard. And we're trying to create a sustainable life for ourself and our company that could theoretically last for many, many, many decades. And when you start viewing your business and your employees in that way, that they might, that they could be here for 30 years, all your decisions are different and your goals are different. But it's tough when you have VCs, of course. Of course. Impossible's it's impossible and that's what you then you know you're a chameleon aren't you and so you you you will behave a certain way so with holly and co that's the liberation i

have where i understand the value of raising someone up to the highest point of their lives, personally and professionally. They are rock stars. They've never, and they know that Holly & Co was the reason for that. They were set free of anything they asked and they're going to be there for 20 years and they're going to grow. So many businesses neglect history as a really, really valuable tool. You know, what you've done before and what has worked and hasn't worked is incredibly important. I actually do value the want for people to become sort of the champions, I suppose. And so that is now the destination. Why I don't have the elevator pitch? I mean, who am I pitching to? You know, why I don't have the destination. Why I don't have the elevator pitch. I mean, who am I pitching to?

You know, why I don't have the destination. I have an anchor. That anchor is my 90th birthday. I have an anchor, which is my vision, but I don't have to define it yet because I want to be around for that long. And how on earth, we know as an entrepreneur, you can't tell me what's going to happen next year. You know, we can have a course, we have our best intentions, and we can think that these people are going to be the A game. And so that has been the beautiful point.

And that is the knowledge I'm trying to share with this community. I'm trying to help them understand that they're not a cookie cutter business they don't need to be they shouldn't be um and that that's what i'm hopefully leading by example for me a really pivotal point and what you're saying there was either we had this guy in my business who used to ask this really annoying question when we were growing he used to say um but yeah what's like the purpose of social chain and he always used to ask me that question like what's the what's the what's our purpose what's our purpose and i thought he was a bit

a bit of an irritant because we're trying i'm just trying to keep this thing alive purpose is paying you yeah it's making sure i can make payday this month then next month and that was my purpose yeah but they got to a point where i did start to reflect maybe five years in on like what what is? What am I doing this for? And that's when I went away that I think it was a Christmas time. And I, and I sat down, I was like, what is the, what is the purpose of this company? And I came up with this www. thing where I was like, work, welfare in the world, these kind of three components. So the work we do and the standard of work we do for our clients and I broke that down into a set of goals and values.

Welfare was really about the team and the family that were working here. And then the world was the wider impact that we have because of our existence on the outside world. And again, that broke down into a set of goals and objectives about the environment and about philanthropy. And that gave us all this kind of www.setofvaluesandmeaningintheworld. And that's the thing that pushed me towards realising that I had to make a company that was sustainable, not one that was driven for the stock market. I had lost control of the company

because I owned a small percent by this stage. There was board members that were triple my age. I was still the CEO, but a lot of it's lip service when you don't really have control right they want they need to keep you happy because you have a lot of influence over a lot of things um but i couldn't steer the company in the direction i wanted to and you have different objectives there's a lot of people 95 of the people in the board are trying to make money just more and more money by any means necessary and you're trying to be this founder that's got these dreams and visions of beauty and what it wouldn't

and talking about purpose and values and yeah it's just nonsense in that environment and you and i realized that and so that's why i resigned last year i realized that the way that i wanted to take the business in was not possible i no longer had that control because starting at 21 giving up that control you can't get it back you can't and now you you have got the war scars you've got the battle scars and then what's so fascinating and I'm excited for you is whatever's next you've had those hard lessons and potentially what you'll build next is going to be your good life company where you can start resetting some of those things rewiring for yourself and we're lucky to be able to do it again you know that's a amazing thing um but you know it's never do you care still about the business um it's still my

baby like i remember i saw someone on a competitor on linkedin the other day just like they had like um they paid to take us our name on um seo yes yeah yeah to just like oh you were really looking for social chain and i was looking at the you fucking right and then you were almost like who's not looking at that yes yes you wanted to call someone yes why is that being allowed yeah yeah to be fair yesterday there was a tweet on social chains twitter and i was like and i i posted to the managing director of the us i'm like yeah someone needs to step in here and clarify and i literally took a screenshot i'm like i would if i was there if i was there i'd be

all over this yeah yeah exactly well you can't take it out of us hey you can't but it's um you know it's it's a interesting um world that we're living in at the moment i think what's beautiful for holly and co is we are we are right in the zeitgeist of what people are feeling so um you know when we're all looking at you know the freelance economy when we're all looking at the changes remember not in the high street was built when the high street was declining holly and co is here when we're all valuing mental health is something that we do talk about um changing the world purpose our environment all these sorts of things and so that is what i'm excited about because we are able to pivot able to move. And we're building something that is at the time that people need it. We're going to have a lot of displaced people, and they're going to need to be entrepreneurial, and they're going to need to probably have their own businesses. And that's what I hope we can do is provide them with the guide, I suppose.

And that brings us to do what you love. Love what you do. Yeah. Yeah. It's an amazing experience. I'm a dyslexic. So writing, you know, I remember not in the high street, Sophie had to check all my emails. That wasn't probably great because that meant that I definitely thought I couldn't. And remember, she could rewrite the English dictionary. So it was probably the wrong person, but right person at the time. I didn't write until four years ago when I started my Instagram account, Holly Tucker, and I now write a post every day.

But I would have to get my founders to check the posts because, you know, I couldn't do it. And, you know, again, they raised me up. They said, actually, you can write. So fast forward, how on earth could I write a book? So during lockdown one, I created something called SMESOS actually for my community. So I went live every day on Instagram to try and demystify the news, to try and be there for them, literally just be there. 10 o'clock every morning, we're just going to be here for you and we can just do this together. But what they didn't know was also writing a book in the morning, first thing. And it was one of the most beautiful

experiences ever because people liked who I was and how I wrote. And yeah, there were loads of spelling mistakes and Ds were Bs and all this sort of stuff. But it was a wonderful experience. And it allowed me in a book to almost put down everything we've spoken about today. Bringing colour to grey, being passionate, your energy. You don't have to be great at the P&L. You have to be great at being you. And we'll figure all the rest out at another stage, that you are the founder, that you're the

heartbeat. Brand and purpose is one of the most important things that you can put into your business. And so they're micro chapters because all the small businesses that I virtually mentor don't have much time. So you can pick it up. Kids can be screaming. You can read a micro chapter. We created a exclusive product range. So every micro chapter has a almost merch that goes with it.

But obviously, all the 50 small businesses that work with me actually do what they love and love what they do, which I just love that circle. It's a color book which was funny because business books normally aren't color um but of course it had to be color and it's um yeah Sunday Times bestseller and I'm super proud of it and I hope that now writing books will be part of my life until that age that we speak about where I'm going to wear lots of jewellery big glasses and drink lots of wine it's such a beautiful book business books aren't usually like this they're usually quite exclusive yeah in the way that they're created in the way that they look and they're never colour so you look at it and think oh work yes you know what I mean well that

was the whole purpose for the creative bunch that are small businesses. You need to be able to love it. And, you know, it needs to be, it needed to speak to you. And so many, it's been helping so many people. It's just insane.

And so, yeah, it's just one of those moments in my life that I can't believe I get to be this lucky. And I imagine, because it was the same with my book, did you realise it would be that rewarding? Because the effort to create it is, oh. It's a lot. But then when you published and you got it out there

and you felt the wave of inbound. Yeah, I didn't at all. I didn't even realise, you know, it's like everything, isn't it? When you're doing something you're not actually you're so fast forward you're like oh I've written that book I really hope I get another book you don't actually think about the moment actually the book is born you know so you're all you know up to that point and then you slightly move on you know you know and then the books launch you're like oh my god I've written a book look at that person oh that was me yes I remember

that and because of COVID and timings and things like that but the you know the process is not an easy one right when the editor comes back and goes could you just insert that um thought into that paragraph that you think really really is it really necessary um and yeah so it's just been wonderful and and and as I said having people the amount it was shared it was as if it was the community's book and that i never explicitly said that to the team but that's exactly what we wanted it needs to be the book that represented the good life businesses that someone was talking their language and so that has been uh really humbling what a wonderful sort of demystifying

both book but also conversation today. It's been an absolute honour to meet you and to have this conversation with you. And you're right, you're one of those people that I think culture really needs right now. Someone that's been there and done it, come out the other side and said, here are all the things that are fucked up about the system and don't make the mistakes that I made or fall into the traps that I fell into. And I um that's going to liberate a lot of people but as you say it's going to lead them to a much better life so I thank you for that because I think we need more people in society that um are willing to fight that fight and it feels like such a selfless one even though it must be selfish to some degree because it's giving you such a huge sense of purpose right

yeah well I I can't believe this gets to be my life. Get to meet you. Big fan of this podcast. Can't believe I'm on it. I was just saying that I was so nervous. I've only been on a few. I'm very good at talking to others. I'm so interested in other people's, but I'm not very, you know, I don't do this very often.

So it's been an absolute honour to meet you. And I wish you your good life business in the future. Oh, I'm going to let you know. And you're going to have to help me maybe give you some advice. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thanks for watching!