The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett - Peter Crouch Opens Up About His Dark Times & Crying Himself To Sleep

Episode Date: November 17, 2022

Peter Crouch is a legend both on and off the football pitch. Capped 42 times for England, he is one of the few players to have scored 100 or more Premier League goals. Since retirement he has further cemented his role as a cheeky national treasure with his role as a football pundit and host of That Peter Crouch Podcast. But few up to now have seen the man behind the persona. It was childhood bullying and taunts about his height that helped to shape the down to earth man that audiences love today. Using this abuse as his fuel and motivation, he made sure that he let his actions on the pitch do the talking to prove his critics wrong. This conversation explores his path and drive to footballing greatness, as well as his acknowledgement of the characteristics that led a select few of his teammates from great to legendary. He is a walking example of the benefits and rewards of staying true to yourself, keeping self-perspective and self-awareness, and the benefits of trying to be a good role model. Peter: Instagram - http://bit.ly/3g6e78g Twitter - http://bit.ly/3AlKwhK Follow me: https://beacons.ai/diaryofaceo

Quick one. Just wanted to say a big thank you to three people very quickly. First people I want to say thank you to is all of you that listen to the show. Never in my wildest dreams is all I can say. Never in my wildest dreams did I think I'd start a podcast in my kitchen and that it would expand all over the world as it has done. And we've now opened our first studio in America, thanks to my very helpful team led by Jack on the production side of things. So thank you to Jack and the team for building out the new American studio. And thirdly to Amazon Music, who when they heard that we were expanding to the United States

and I'd be recording a lot more over in the States, they put a massive billboard in Times Square for the show. So thank you so much, Amazon Music. Thank you to our team and thank you to all of you that listened to this show. Let's continue. I've seen things that I'd never seen before. You know, the proudest moment of my life

has been taken away because of that. Peter Crouch, he's done it again! Oh, that's sensational! Brilliant finish by Crouch! Crouch, tries one! Oh! I think people that know me would say I'm a nice guy, but on the pitch I had to be a different person

if I wanted to succeed. The top-level players that I've played with, Lampard, John Turrie, Stephen Gerrard, I think look like they don't enjoy it. They are constantly battling for the next thing. Were they intense? So intense, yeah. And, you know, a big reason why I'm the person I am.

I played for England in an era where it felt like there was a huge pressure. You know, we had an opportunity to win World Cups and because we didn't, it was heaped on players. I've got my mum, my dad and friends in the crowd. And then you come on and get booed by 70,000. It's hard to come back from that. My mum was crying, my dad had to have a fight.

I was thinking about giving up football. I think I wasn't seen as what an England striker should look like. I was so scared. I just wanted to hide away. In that phase, you were turning to drink more than you should have been. But I needed to at that time. You're not seen as people. It's like you're well paid, so you have to endure this abuse. You know, you put yourself in a position to be shot at.

But what I've seen with certainly Harry Maguire, the criticism goes beyond criticism. It's gone too far. I'm so proud to represent my country but Peter where do I need to start in your story to really understand you what's the most pertinent relevant things that someone listening to this needs to know Where do I need to start in your story to really understand you? What's the most pertinent, relevant things that someone listening to this needs to know about you to understand you? Well, right at the start, I suppose.

I think everything comes from your childhood, right? I am who I am and shaped by my parents and my friends. And I suppose people see me now, obviously, like I had a determination to be a footballer, a huge determination to be a footballer. And then people see me now as a footballer who has a laugh, I suppose. And that is my persona.

But that stems from my my childhood really and being a little bit different looking a little bit different and having a maybe a defense mechanism um and that humor or probably that you see uh which is me now um yeah it was a little bit of a defense mechanism when someone came at me I'd always be funnier than they would be and then that stops whoever's saying it in their tracks you know and then that being so tall at such a young age was was difficult at times but that kind of defense mechanism was I laugh at myself before you can laugh at me and that that stood me in good stead and and even now that's you know that's the way I get through things when was that when was the first time that you that you realized that you were different because like I remember

coming to the UK from Botswana in Africa and I was the only black kid in all white school and there's like there's some day I think I remember specifically a comment that a kid made to me in the playground which really put into like perspective that I was actually different to them it was something about my hair um I had like a little, little like kind of Jackson 5 Afro going on that I'd combed out. And from that day onwards, that was, I kind of noticed that I was different. Can you recall a time where you've, you realize that you being taller was, made you different? Yeah, well, I think it's only, it's only people with, with experience, like older people that, that notice anything like that, isn't it? Really it really I think like as kids we just grow up everyone's the same aren't

they and then um it's older kids so like when I was you know I was always the tallest in my class but my mum and dad never made a big deal of it to me um I was always taller than everyone else and then when we started to play football and then when I started to be good at football you would hear things on the sideline like yeah but he's a couple of years older or yeah he's good but he's he's too old and um because you're only judged by your height at that at that age so I would hear things from the parents and then um you know I'd hear like little remarks like people laughing little japes and jibing and um yeah because like people saying oh you're skinny or you're lanky is is seen as um it's sort of like you're allowed to say it in some ways do you know what

i mean like it's just it's a describing word but like that's how it was for me um but i i love it it's it feels to me like it's part of me it's me now i've always been taller than everyone else it wasn't as if i just shot up and was different. I was just always ahead above everyone else. And that is a part of me now, which I love. Richard Osmond, who came on the podcast, was the first person who kind of stunned me into silence because I have to be completely honest.

I didn't realise that heightismism abusing people for being tall was such a sort of consequential um thing for those people i was one of the people who who didn't didn't realize that someone who's lived their height being very very tall will be told about it everywhere they go every second and how that can impact someone and how they feel. Honestly, when I remember doing that podcast, I remember sitting there and going, fucking hell, of course, of course, it'd be like anything else with me. If I had a third arm and everyone said it everywhere I go, it would make me subconscious about it. Exactly right. Yeah. And, you know, it's because there's bigger problems everywhere, you know, there's bigger problems, but my problem, my problem, or, you know, it was, my thing that was different was my height, you know, like, uh, I, I recently, you know, added,

did a joke of like all the questions that I was permanently asked. I had a, a series of cards in my inside pocket to answer every single question that everyone, the people I knew were going to ask me. So it was, uh, what's the weather like up there um do you play basketball uh how tall of you um do you sleep in a grow bag is the weather different up there right five questions but i had all the answers in my inside pocket so before they even opened their mouth i could give them a card um and it was just something funny you know that that changed the subject but it's amazing how many times i think it's less so now because people know who I am and know what I'm about.

But before I became well-known, those questions were just constant. What impact does that have? We joke about it as, you know, now, but what impact does that have on a young man? Well, on an impressionable young teenager, it had a big impact. Me now, you know, it's water for ducks you know it doesn't it doesn't matter to me um but yeah as

a young lad it was it was a little bit different i remember my dad getting you know really angry about it um because as a teenager you're going through things that are a little bit um you know you're always you're not comfortable within your own skin are you as a young as a young lad um so I was the same as everyone else but I found it difficult at times really difficult and especially football terraces like as I got older and I was playing professionally um and then I started playing in the first team and all of a sudden it was like, you know, dealing with, it was one thing dealing with the odd person in the street saying, oh, aren't you tall?

And another thing dealing with 30,000 people screaming, like obscenities at you, you know, taking the piss out of the way you look, laughing at you. That, that was difficult. When you say difficult, what do you mean? In a practical sense. Because I read that like 14 and 15 years old you're crying yourself to sleep sometimes because of this and having conversations with your dad about it yeah yeah i think there was times where i thought to myself is it is it worth it is it worth uh going through this um why am i putting myself

through this it's all i've ever loved it's all I've ever wanted to do but if people are going to laugh at me and take the piss out of me what is the point do I want it that much I was lucky I had a good support network around me I had good people around me

my dad was great with me and he was harsh with me at times as well but he was also really really good and pulling me back up and sort of giving myself more confidence and um listen I don't look like your average footballer uh and I've known that since I was 10 11 years old you know when I watch football on the tv I don't see anyone that represented me um really like yeah like Tor Andre Flo was was potentially one good technique there was a couple

of players but not many so I thought to myself maybe I'm just not I'm not right maybe I don't look right I don't I shouldn't be a player

you know I had all these things going on in your mind but ultimately if you know I had the determination and I had the ability

to and I suppose the thick skin, which you have to have to go past it. You said that there was thoughts in your head of, maybe I should quit, maybe I should go do something else. Were those like real considerations you had at some point? Yeah, oh, without doubt.

That was, I'm just, I just think to myself, is it worth it? Like why, I always remember the game. It was West Brom away when I came on and I missed the chance and nobody knew who I was. I was just a kid, you know, I was probably the same height as I am now and probably about, I was probably about nine stone, nine and a half stone. I was, you know, much skinnier than I am now, believe it or not. And I'm trying to be a Premier League player. You it's just people just thought it was absolutely ridiculous and at

times I thought it myself I thought what I know I've got ability but I'm looking at these big strong you know developed men like I can't compete with this and I always remember coming on people actually laughing at me and then there was another game away at gillingham where i just got absolutely abused to the point where you know people were shouting freak and does the circus know you're here like this these were the these are the things that were people saying and uh my dad was in the crowd i always remember it i was walking i was walking uh out uh at halftime of the game and my dad was rolling down the aisle in the Gillingham Inn having a fight with someone I thought oh my god this is not this is my first season in professional

football I'm feeling my dad's having a fight I'm getting absolutely abused my mum's crying you know what am I doing why why am I putting myself through this of course I love football and that's you know what I want to be but is it worth all this how do you feel about those people that shout and like freak at you when you come on the pitch and upsetting your family like how do you like think about them and that kind of culture now like do you know what like it'd be easy for me to say here sit here and go uh oh you know the brain dead this did that but growing up in a football culture it was like I've been there myself on a football terrace where you you know and you hear things my dad used to cover my ears and stuff um I used to

go to Chelsea as a kid and um I don't know it's it's like it's like almost normal and I know it's wrong and obviously there's a line you know I mean obviously we've seen it recently you know with racism and you know there's certain things that go well over the line. But, you know, being tall wasn't considered, you know, over the line. So it was something that I just decided was that was the way football is. You know, can we change that? Can I change that? I don't think so. So I just got on with it. And how do I think about them now?

I think, yeah, it was reckless. I think I sat down with a Gillingham fan that was abusing me that day and I said to you do you know what you really like my mum was crying my dad had to have a fight I was thinking about giving up football I think you'd I think he'd say oh god I'm sorry I think he would but I don't think in that moment he saw us as as people it's like you're a footballer on the pitch and you're not seen as, it's like such tribalism that you're just going to,

you have to endure it. You're well paid, so you have to endure this kind of level of abuse. And I think things are changing. I'd like to think they are. We're trying to help that. But certainly in those days, it was a case of get on with it. Did that put a chip on your shoulder? You know when you hear those things and you're running onto the pitch and you hear people abusing

you or whatever else or you're aware of that that narrative in your head when you come on do you think to yourself I'm gonna fucking show these people i'm gonna does it give you did it give you doubt or did it give you an extra bit of confidence it's a little bit of both i think like when i was like i i didn't know whether i was going to play for england or i was going to be a non-league player and either of them would have been fine like i wasn't on the map to go and play for england you know i wasn't stephen gerrard i wasn't michael owen i wasn't wayne rooney you know i had a different path i wasn't ready for the premier league till i was 22 23 probably you know I wasn't Steven Gerrard I wasn't Mike Lowe and I wasn't Wayne Rooney you know I had a different path I wasn't ready for the Premier League till I was 22 23 probably you know so I didn't know where my career was going to go so yeah there were times where I

doubted myself but then I think you know I think I scored my first goal and uh and things just changed and I just it was one of it was the most important moment of my life and it was against Gillingham again believe believe it or not. Funny how it comes around. But I chased the ball down and I volleyed this ball until I was at QPR. And I knew then that I'd have a career in football. Like, I didn't know I'd play for Liverpool. I didn't know I'd play for England.

But I didn't know what I'd go on to achieve. But I knew then I'd have a career in football. And that was where my confidence grew. And then I'd have a career in football and that was where my confidence grew and and then I thought no no no I can do this your dad had he was um quite tough at times from what I read yeah yeah yeah like really tough yeah um what does that mean well real terms yeah I mean I mean I think at times he probably went a little bit too too far but like i wouldn't i wouldn't be sat here having played for england or i'm playing achieving the things that i've done achieving my dreams without him being hard on me like i wouldn't would i go Would I go maybe to the lengths at times that he did? Maybe not, but... What lengths?

Well, just certain things. Like I think the harshest one was when he obviously left me at... I was at the ball court at Tottenham and I jumped out of a tackle. And his thing was, look look I came from a nice background and a lot of kids were playing football to survive you know so I had to toughen up and that's the truth like was I going to go into a tackle like my life depended on it like the kids from from the estate around Edmonton or East London and um probably not at that time so you know

when I got up to after the after training my dad he'd gone yeah yeah yeah so

he left me and I had to get home bearing in mind I grew up in Ealing getting home from White Hart Lane was an overground seven sisters He left me and I had to get home. And bearing in mind, I grew up in Ealing, getting home from White Hart Lane was an overground. Seven Sisters to Oxford Circus, Oxford Circus to Ealing Broadway, and then walk home from there.

I was probably about, I was probably 13 or 14, but I hadn't been on a tube before. I had, but not on my own. So it was a tough lesson. Did he tell you he was he was going no I went up there and he was gone and did you not think I'll give him a call to raise well I didn't have a mobile yeah yeah yeah it was different and when did you find out it was because of you weren't tackling people well I thought I thought it might be wasn't no I didn't tackle I think I remember jumping out of one particular tackle and I thought my dad's going to kill me for that

do you know what though I never jumped out of a tackle again and you know like I say it is a harsh lesson but I'm not going to I'm not going to sit here

and say it wasn't the right lesson I think it might have been a tad harsh would I do would I do that to my son I'm not sure probably not

but I think potentially I'm too easy on my kids a bit it's a tough lesson to learn but I think if you want to be a top elite footballer, you need to want it as much as the next person. And I did want it,

but I hadn't had to fight as much as these kids, you know? And don't get me wrong, these kids, they're my friends now, you know? Like I have some good lads that came from tough upbringings that went on to be really good players. You know, Ledley King, I remember, like Ledley King, Stephen Mills, James Carter, these boys that I met in the ball court, you know,

Nicky Hunt, they were tough lads, you know, from, you know, Bow in East London, you know, in a state where Ashley Cole grew up, Ledley King grew up, and I ended up playing in the ball court where they grew up, you know, and that's a different kind of environment to where I was playing you know but I think when you can hold your own in

there and you know you can go you can rough it up you can fly into tackles I basically changed my whole personality to be when I played football you know like I can sit here now and I'd like to say that I'm not I'd like to think that I'm a nice guy I think people that know me would say I'm a nice guy but on the pitch I had to be a different person if I wanted to succeed and um that was just one lesson when you got home from that little football game where you didn't put the tackle in or jumped out of the tackle did your dad have a conversation with you about it about why he left yeah so he told you why at the end he said yeah why yeah listen there's a few things that like

should remain private between me and my dad but let's just say I was told in uncertain terms to not jump out of a tackle again

okay okay good and your mum what was your her broader influence on you my mum yeah your mum

what was she like? She was very much like me. Yeah, I think most of my traits probably come from my mum. You know, obviously the love of football came from my dad and stuff and, you know, he was very good with me, but my mum was very good with me and, you know, I thank her every day about you know she'd taken me to to matches I remember seeing her just you know she was the only mum on the

side with the brolly when it was lashing down and um she was incredible taking me to places she was like my shoulder to cry on she was the person that I would confide in um they're both both very very good and you know a big reason why I'm the person I am those players from the estate that you you played amongst one of the things I read about um in your book was how you could see how attitude played such an important role and who would make it because getting from like the estate to you know sort of semi-pro level and then getting to the premier league is a long fucking journey and there's only a few seats at that top table so when you think about like why including yourself why in terms of mindset and

attitude some of of your colleagues and some of your peers made it and didn't make it what's your answer to that yeah it's it's funny like everyone every footballer that's played for england or played i've played within the premier league um they've all got a story all of them i've got every single one will tell you a story about the player that was better than them that no one knows um there's so many of them out there and it's sad um but for whatever reason, injury, you know, there's lots of temptation as a young footballer, especially when you're that good. You know, if you're earning money, you don't know how to handle that money.

Friends, parties, you know, distractions of all different kinds. You know, attitude, will, you know, determination, dedication. There's so many factors alongside ability, luck's there's so many factors alongside ability um luck there's there's there's so many factors um but I sometimes think we don't you know a lot of the time we look at the negative side of football um but I think sometimes when you see the kids that have come from absolute and I'm talking absolutely nothing some of these kids uh who are now playing for England or, you know, and they make mistakes. They make mistakes in the public eye.

They make mistakes, high-profile mistakes. And everyone goes, ah, it's footballers. You know, that's what they're like. But like, if you'd have seen what they've come from to playing in a Champions League final, I think that's a success story. You know, I think sometimes we should celebrate that fact

not Cain for making those mistakes that they've made and yeah of course depends what kind of if it's you know too big a mistake obviously you can't

condone some things but some of these players who have come basically with no mum and dad you know someone's picked them up with one particular player

you know not had any boots been thrown on a football pitch and has ended up playing in a champions league final but yeah he's made the mistakes You know, someone's picked them up with one particular player, you know, not had any boots, been thrown on a football pitch and has ended up playing in the Champions League final. But yeah, he's made mistakes along the way. But I think sometimes we should consider that a success. Yeah, we don't really have a lot of empathy, do we? When it comes to...

No, because it's a highly paid profession, you know, and sometimes, you know, there's a stigma on, you know, why are these players getting paid so well and I get that, there's a lot of money in football and could it be spent elsewhere on people in the NHS or people who are doing probably much more harder jobs than a footballer but it is what it is you can't change it but i do think um yeah there is there is that stigma associated to footballers i sat with tim grover who was the guy that trained michael jordan and kobe and he also

trained some premier league football players now gives them like coaching advice and one of the things he told me was how he's seen the pressure of being a high level Premier League football player completely destroy some players and it's something that it was the first time I'd kind of heard that because as a fan as I've always been you know you know we're all tweeting we're all having our say all commenting we're all at the game shouting in our little mob mentality whatever but then we don't really think that the all of that pressure especially on like as you say a kid that's come from the estate who's 18 and isn't like doesn't have the tools to deal with that pressure how they can be going home how it can severely impact their performance and how it can kind of like just cause them to collapse a little bit um i've got to be honest i've seen a similar thing in my view with like the mob attacking

like someone like Harry Maguire. Rashford had it a lot last year as well. But what's your take on all of that? And have you seen that yourself in the dressing room? Yeah, I've seen it. I played for England in an era where it felt like there was a huge pressure.

It was the golden generation. The players were the best we've ever had since 66. We had an opportunity to win World Cups and because we didn't, it felt like it was heaped on certain players and that kind of pressure. But when you're talking about Rashford and Maguire, I think we were all entitled to criticise players.

Like, we put ourselves in that position. But like, what I've seen with certainly Harry Maguire, I feel like it goes, it's gone really too far. I think, you know, it's harsh. It's, you know, I'm just thinking of his family, you know, because I've been in that position. I've been booed for England. I remember playing at Old Trafford in a game and coming on

and it's the proudest moment you'll ever have in your life and your home fans are booing you. You know, I've been in that situation. And it feels like Harry Maguire's going through, you know, what seems to be a prolonged period of this. And yeah, regardless of form, I think some of the social media stuff that I see, you know, ridiculing. I think he's having a difficult time as a player.

But I think some of the criticism goes beyond criticism. It becomes too harsh, in my opinion. Having been in a situation where you've been booed by the fans of the club you're playing for, what does that do to you? What did it do to you when you came up? Was it for England you came up? Yeah, well, that's devastating.

Yeah, I'm playing for England. And listen, you know, there might be an element of the fact I was my Liverpool player. I'm at Old Trafford. You know, obviously a lot of my United fans. But it was during the course of when I wasn't scoring for Liverpool and I was having a real tough time anyway I had 18 games where I didn't score for Liverpool and um the fact that it goes back to I felt like with England I had to be superhuman but it goes back to the thing where because I look different a bit I wasn't seen as what an England striker should look like. And I think that was genuinely a thing.

But I then, you know, I'm so proud to represent my country, but I've got my sister, my mum and my dad, all friends in the crowd. And everyone's excited. You know, they're all talking to me before the game about, you know, me potentially coming on and making an appearance, get the cap. And then you come on and get booed by 70 000 of your own fans yeah so so what i'm saying is um

don't ever feel sorry for footballers don't but you know don't don't have to we expect that but my family like my mom was in bits um you know the proudest moment of my life has sort of been taken away a bit because of that um but you know we put ourselves in in the position is no I'm not gonna I'm gonna sit here and and cry about it just it's just disappointing for my family more than anything what happens when the whistle blows the game ends on days like that you go back and see your family is there a bit of an awkwardness to it bit of embarrassment you know because What happens when the whistle blows, the game ends on days like that? You go back and see your family. Is there a bit of an awkwardness to it? Bit of embarrassment, you know, because you want to be the one who comes down with the champagne in your hand, you know,

and everyone claps you in and your family gives you a big hug, you know. And most of the lads did that, you know. They've got a shirt, they've got a cap. Like, I come down to the players' lounge after and I'm a bit sheepish and I sorry about that mum you know it's like you're apologizing for doing the thing that you've worked so hard to do your whole life um so that is that's difficult dealing with the the family side of it because I I know what I done. I've put myself in a position to be shot at.

I'm sure you feel the same, you know, doing this podcast, whatever you do, that's, you know, you've put yourself in a position to be shot at, but your mum hasn't, you know? She doesn't need to hear that. And it killed her a bit. It's funny, isn't it?

When you put yourself in a position to be shot at, which I really like that phrase, and then, you know, you get shot at, your family try and stand in the way of the bullets to some degree. And it's like, no, no, no, please don't send me the articles. Please don't tell me your thoughts on it on WhatsApp.

I don't need to like persuade you out of this situation and like sort of counsel you on why these people are saying this about me. But how do you deal with that? How do you deal with like um you know do you just park the guard and pretend it's not happening it depends on the issue but i mean i'll probably get cancelled once once every quarter for something i've said on this podcast or whatever um dragon center sometimes because the way it's edited it can make it seem like i

said something i didn't say whatever but um so my friends know not to send me articles just assume i've seen it yeah i don't need my best mate going, have you seen this? This is something that happened early on in my career and I was like, nah, stop all that. I'm not reading, I don't watch Match of the Day if I haven't scored. Yeah.

Do you know what I mean? That's the way I deal with it. It's like, you know, that doesn't exist. Yeah, yeah, yeah. When I do something good, I might listen to the praise. Be very selective in what you watch or listen to but was there a moment in your career where you said i'm not going to read the newspapers anymore i'm not going to watch the telly i'm just going to yeah was that liverpool phase oh god yeah that liverpool phase was like radio silent i was gone

i was realized the thing like everyone's the with now, I could stop buying a newspaper. I can stop watching telly. I can do other things, you know, I can do, but nobody can live without their phone now. And this is the problem, like for young footballers that are worried.

I do, like you've got to worry about it because no one can put their phone down for, no one can. So any footballer is the same, especially a young player you know you pick up your phone for it right i've got what's on the diary i've got a text message then you did you find yourself on instagram on twitter on whatever you're on and you can't get away from

it and no matter what the players tell you whether they are don't listen to it they they do they do you can't get away from what what it is now with the phones you can't everyone's got one and everyone's looking um with me to get through that yeah I didn't I didn't watch I was getting ridiculed that time where I didn't score for Liverpool was such a hard time like for me I was just going to hide away in in a in a dark room until I scored basically so I don't know what I would do if I was hiding away in a dark room with a mobile phone you might as well just not you might as well go out and face it all because it's a lot harsher on the on the phone than it is when you see people in person if I was in your so you signed for

Liverpool and then you go 18 games without scoring, 18 appearances, right? Without scoring. If I was in your household at that time, if I was behind the scenes in your camp, what would I have actually, what would I have seen? Someone who's depressed, I suppose.

I mean, outwardly, outwardly not. I've never been that person to sort of, to wallow in it. You know, I'm always been the sort of, I suppose, a bubbly character. Always see the positive in everything. But at that time, like, it felt like I was getting ridiculed and it was really tough. But I had to sort of fight my way through it. But what was so amazing was the liverpool fans stuck with

me and uh that's something that i'll never forget because i i swear to you any club in the world um having just won the champions league in one of the best finals we've ever seen in istanbul in 2005 they signed me right i turn up and i don't score for 18 games right i don't think there's a club a top club in the world that tolerates that as a fan base apart from Liverpool fans. And they stuck by me and it was like a siege mentality. It was like everyone else is attacking him, but he's one of ours and we're with him.

And it felt like every time I played, it felt like they were willingly to score. And when I eventually did, you can see the footage of it. The camera's shaking. It's like we've won a European Cup final. People wanted me to score that much. And I'm thankful to this day that they did stick with me because I managed to turn it around after that.

And it was a special moment, a special club. I was reading in that phase, you were turning to drink more than you should have been a little bit after games and stuff. Yeah, because my dad, you know, to be fair to him, would say to me, and I'd be like, no, I'm not going out.

And he'd be like, you're going out. Like, he'd make me go out after games. And I'd be like, I don't want to, want to people laughing at me but he dragged me out we'd have a few beers like it wasn't as if i was drinking at home on my own it wasn't like a dark kind of thing it was he was making he was dragging me out and he was making me have a few drinks and then i realized actually no one because it's i've built it it up. Everyone's laughing at me. It's my world that's, you know, actually no one really cares. You know, they might have a laugh at you on a Saturday,

but they're going back to their own lives. You know, I feel like everyone's laughing at me at all times. You know, you build these things up in your head and they're never as bad as you think they are. So his way of dealing with it, you know, with me was to take me out for a beer. And yeah, I probably did drink a little bit more than I should do as a Premier League player, but I needed to at that time.

And you bounced between, what, six clubs before the age of 25? Yeah. Six? Yeah. That's a lot of moving. It's a lot of moving around, yeah. But I class class that as,

like if I'm at Liverpool or you're starting Manchester United or Chelsea, Bayern Munich, Real Madrid, you don't have to move anywhere if you're playing, do you? You don't have to. The course of my career was very different to anyone else's course of my career. And those moves that I had where QPR had a chance to showcase my talent,

I did very well. The club went into administration, I went to Portsmouth and they bought me for like a record fee I then did really really well in a championship and got a move to Aston Villa in the Premier League you know I felt like my dream had arrived and then it didn't quite work out I wasn't ready for the Premier League I always remember my debut was against Newcastle and Alan Shearer was up the other end of the pitch and I was at this end of the pit obviously the opposite striker and I thought if that's what I need to be a Premier League player I'm not one I'm not one because he was so good and I just thought maybe I maybe I'm a championship player um So I ended up having to move again to Southampton to get games.

And then things took off. So all my moves were for a reason from a club point of view or for a financial thing for the club or for me having to go out and get football or for me to progress as a player. So I would have loved nothing more than to stay at one club for my whole life. But that wasn't my journey.

You moved from Liverpool to Spurs. How would you sort of summarise your time at Spurs? I absolutely loved it because I started at Spurs as a youngster and I played in that ball court at White Hart Lane and I tried to play in a youth team and I was in the reserves

and me and Ledley King came through together Ledley when obviously was there and I went throughout all this whole journey of Liverpool

England QPR Portsmouth Southampton on Norwich on loan Dulwich Hamlet on loan and I came back to Tottenham and Ledley was in the same place I left him.

Which was amazing. I never got to play in the first team for Tottenham. I'd come through there in the youth team. I had so many players ahead of me. I wasn't ready. So when I come back for £10 million and I'd already played in the Champions League final, I'd played in the World Cup,

I'd achieved things that nobody in that Tottenham sort of dressing room at the time would say I would achieve. I wasn't even good enough to play in their first team, which is correct at the time. So to come back, it felt like unfinished business, if you like. So then when I scored

some important goals for Spurs and we got into the Champions League for the first time and we had good success that felt like it was almost like a coming home

if you like and that ended a little bit too abruptly for your liking a bit yeah yeah it did I liked it at Spurs it was funny

because I it was deadline day and Harry Redknapp was talking about bringing Emmanuel Albaior in and it's funny how it works for a footballer but I went to work call it work

for now I left Abbey and the kids and I said I'll see I'll see you this afternoon and then this afternoon never came

I never came home and I just gave her a call and said we live in Stoke now it's the life of a footballer I was happy I had a two year contract left at Tottenham

but I was you know a bid came in of 10 million pounds for a 30 year old. And I can understand from a club's perspective that they wanted to accept the offer. They wanted to bring Adebayor in. And I spoke to Harry and he said,

obviously, yeah, we do want to bring Adebayor in, but Daniel Levy wants to accept this bid. obviously I wasn't happy about it. You know, I was happy where I was. I was at a great club and I,

and I wanted to stay. But certain bits and pieces happened and I said to Ab, we're on the move. How does Daniel, he's a figure that's talked about a lot as being quite a tough guy. Does very, what's the word? Tough business. That's what I hear a lot. Well, listen, this is, you know, it's diary of a CEO, right? tough guy does very what's the word tough business that's what I hear a lot

well listen this is you know diary of a CEO right if I was running a football club I'd probably have him in charge really yeah he's a harsh businessman

right but he's looking after you know a billion pound asset you know he's he's not

necessarily the owner but he's running it like it's his own um and i think i understand that like the the bid of 10 million came in for me i'm a i'm an asset to the business and i know i'm a person but if you look at it purely from from a business perspective i'm a depreciating asset at 30 years old potentially I went on to 38 to be fair

but in his eyes maybe Wilson Palacios was another 6 million so that's 16 million they're getting for it's good money

it's good business potentially but you know I'm not stupid either so I had two years left on my deal and you must have had his invent over well if you think about it he's getting 16 million but you know, I'm not, I'm not stupid either. So I had two years left on my deal and.

You must've had his, him bent over. Well, if you think about it, he's getting 16 million, right? You sound like a man. With your arms crossed.

It's not, yeah, it's not like, I know what he's getting. I'm entitled to, to see some of that if you want me to leave. Unless I didn't get that much, obviously. But I did okay.

And it worked out for both of us. But I don't think there's many people that come out of maybe an incident like that with Daniel leaving and come out smiling. Because he is harsh. But like I say, I had my running with him and there were times where I said no it's okay I'm happy I'll see you in the morning I'm happy at Tottenham I was comfortable there and I just said I'll see you in the morning and uh you know I suppose you've

got to be prepared to hang up the phone and say say that um and then he kept coming back and telling me that I wouldn't get a squad number, I wouldn't, I'll be training with the kids, trying to make my life difficult. And I was like, no problem. What was that initial conversation? He calls you in and says you're off. Do they not say, I'm interested in the world of football, like, because in the world I'm from in business, there's a high degree of empathy. It's a very, you know, conversation, it's performance reviews, it's very, but we don't have an impending deadline day either so i'm just trying to figure out if it's like a go get your stuff you're off or if it's uh but i think i think i think it would be different if

you did have a deadline day you know if you're right people will get stuff done on that day so i i think you know that rushes people, obviously. But, yeah, definitely you're seeing, like, there's this whole thing about a player should show loyalty. But this also works both ways. You know, clubs at times, if you aren't performing or you're maybe having, I don't know, issues or problems off the field, sometimes that side of it doesn't get shown as well, you know, when the club will quite happily get rid of you.

So yeah, it works both ways. But yeah, unfortunately, the business that they're in is buying and selling players and winning football matches. And it is a ruthless industry. But I went into that. I realized that very quickly, to be quite honest. But I went into that I realized that very quickly to be quite honest um but I went into that with with open eyes do you do you regret leaving Liverpool yeah I do a bit I had a I had a great time at Portsmouth though so and some of those memories were will stay with me forever

but leaving Liverpool is a difficult thing to do and And I was playing for England at the time and I was loving playing for England. I was playing well. And I just thought, we signed Fernando Torres. And I'm pragmatic. I understand my role, if you know what I mean,

as a player. He was better than me. So what do I do now? He's always going to play. He formed a great partnership with Steven Gerrard. He's on absolute fire. I still believe in myself. I still believe I can play for England. I'm still a very good player. I'm just not on Torres' level. So I think he's not, he

just wasn't getting injured the whole time I was there. And then, you know, I'd left and then he was sold quite quickly to Chelsea. And I saw players, obviously, that were playing. Andy Carroll. Yeah, I mean, you know, Andy Carroll, you know, there was Voronin and Gog, players that I felt that, you know, basically I felt like I could have played. But having said that, I never looked back. I've not looked back on any of them.

People even say to me now, like, do you miss football? No, I don't miss football. That was a time that I had that was the best. I look back with such fond memories of it. Same at Liverpool. I don't think, oh, should have played there for 10 years. It would have been nice, but I still cherish the moments that I had with Liverpool.

And also, I've met some great people at Portsmouth and it's such a good club. And that was just off the back of winning the FA Cup and I really thought we'd get into the Champions League. Our team was that good. So it gave me the opportunity to play and to enjoy my football and to carry on playing for England.

So do I regret it? It's the one thing I look back on and think, could I have stayed? And could I have been at top, top club for longer? But I love my time at Portsmouth as well. You mentioned Gerrard there, and I've seen you talk about Lampard and Beckham and Gerrard and Carragher.

What was it that made those individuals great in your view? What did you see? I saw something in like in those players that was slightly different to me. Like I'm not gonna, I enjoyed what I was doing. Like I looked at the top, top level players that I played with and they never looked like they enjoyed it, ever.

Like, yeah, Gerrard, Carragher, I'd class in that, John Terry, Lampard. It was always the next game, you know, and I think that's the top level mentality you need to have. For me, at times I'd go, we've won this, lads, let's enjoy this one a little bit. Because we had a massive game on Tuesday they would already be thinking about yeah that was good but it's about the next one it's

always about the next one and I admire that in people um and I I had a I had a steely mentality but I also thought what are we doing it for you, yeah, of course it's about winning trophies, but also it's about this moment. We've just won like a huge game, like in the last minute, let's celebrate this moment and deal with tomorrow, tomorrow. Whereas sometimes the top level players. Like who? Yeah, like Steven Gerrard prime example of that just a constant

it looked like there was there was no enjoyment obviously there was enjoyment at times but it felt like it was just the next game was was more important

than enjoying this one and yeah of course it was but I was always a little bit like can I just enjoy this one. And yeah, of course it was, but I was always a little bit like, can I just enjoy this one a little bit? Which is, you know, I think separates the, I'd class myself as an elite sportsman. I played at the top level, but I'm talking top, top.

And that's why they're who they are. Were they intense? So intense, yeah. Yeah, yeah, that's what, but I think that's what separates people isn't it I think you know you've got to want to um sacrifice everything and you know I did when I was when I was younger and I did throughout my career but what I'm saying is that it's that 0.5 percent that one percent difference of um of just already thinking about the next game. Managers do it.

And as players, sometimes we, of course, enjoy that win and think about the next game when it comes. But the top level players that I've played with, like you say, Lampard, John Turrie, Stephen Gerrard, Jamie Carragher, I put in that, you know, the Man United boys like the consistent winners are the ones that

I think look like they don't enjoy it and because they are constantly battling for the next the next thing I read that you said

some players couldn't deal with the intensity of a Stephen Gerrard and a Carragher and that you also were much more orientated to try and please them than the manager which I think was Rafa at the time you were trying to please more concerned with pleasing Carragher and Gerrard who are the

you know like club captain captain whatever of the team than the manager yeah that's true I'm trying I'm trying to put myself into the changing room and understand why that is. What were they doing? They're local boys, right? They're legends at the club. When I think of Liverpool, I think of Steven Gerrard and Jamie Carragher. Rafa Benitez, I suppose, was a top manager and he signed me. I've got only good words to say about him.

But Steve and Gerald are absolute legends of the club and quite ruthless in their, and quite harsh in their appraisal of some players. So I found myself in constantly seeking their approval and my training was, you know, I always remember the first training session when Steve wrapped a ball

into my feet and I miscontrolled one. And it's like, it's like one look would be, you know, you don't do that here. You're at Liverpool now.

It's one bad touch isn't tolerated here. You know, it's only a look, but it was enough to to make me not do that again

you know that kind of standards are different and I think you get that from certain players like like Stephen

and Jamie would they go individuals in a changing room oh yeah yeah I mean it's their club

you know and I think some people didn't understand that the level of passion that they had for the club. And like there's players that on, you know, everyone's different. Like you'll know only so well, like in a place of work,

there's no two characters the same, you know? So you need to know what makes people tick. And some people couldn't understand the level of passion that they had for the club, of standards that they had. They might have come from a more relaxed club, but unfortunately, if you want to play for Liverpool, you have to have a certain way about you and a certain standard. And if you fall below that standard,

then players like Steven and Jamie would tell you very quickly. In front of everyone. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I've seen players be signed and be written off in one training session. You know, 15 million pound players coming in

and like, he's shit. Really? What, and never like... No, I mean, that was... You wouldn't get many chances. But then I've also seen players be written off and then come back, which obviously in their eyes would make them a good fit for Liverpool. What do you think of Liverpool right now?

Got the new Nunes guy come in. Yeah, I like Nunes. I think, you know, he's a bit... I think it's going to take him time to settle in. I don't think we've seen the best of him yet. But as a club, what Jurgen Klopp's done there, I think... I look at young kids now

who just expect Liverpool to win the Champions League or win the leagues. You know, it's been 30-od 30 odd years before it was a long time and Jurgen Klopp has just changed the DNA back into you know where they were in the 80s it's that good and yeah they're struggling a little bit now but what he's

done for that football club has been nothing short of incredible we had some great players at my time at the club but what they've done as a group has surpassed anything that that spell I had done. Jürgen

Raffer, how many managers did you work under in your time? God, I've been loads over the years. Almost 10? God, that's probably more than that. Probably more than that. For you, from working with more than 10 footballing managers at varying different levels,

and also at the very, very top of international and Premier League football, what made a really good manager? Um, I think there's lots of ways to manage. And, you know, I did my coaching badges just before I retired. And you try and use a little bit of the good stuff out of out of everyone but you know obviously like Rafa very tactically um you know

Harry Redknapp was a great people person you know like he understood people and what they wanted and he made it a nice sort of environment you know Sven the same was so relaxed you know in a pressured environment when you were going into a world Cup, Sven had that aura of calmness around you, which you needed. So like, yeah, great managers that I've had along the way, but very, very different qualities in all of them. What about the opposite? What was the instances where you thought that's not good management? Well, it was certain things like, you know, with Rafa, there was a tendency to be too intricate,

to be too methodical, too precise at times. If you could mix a little bit of Rafa and a bit of Harry together, I feel like you'd have the perfect manager because with Rafa, it was like we're playing Wolves at home and we've got Steven Gerrard, Xabi Alonso, uh Fernando Torres we've got the best back four in the league at the moment um and one of the best goalkeepers just go out and beat them you know like I don't think it's that difficult I don't think you have to play with a couple of holding midfield players and you have to have, you know, what we do if we don't have to.

Just go and beat them. We're at Anfield. Let's go and express ourselves. And that was my only criticism, you know, like that I could have. I think there was too many times where we were thinking about the opposition instead of saying, we're Liverpool. Let's go out and batter them Who was the best manager

you played for? There's so many reasons for each one Jerry Francis gave me my debut Graham Ricks was a big influence on my career there's good qualities of Sven

I thought Rafa was at times was incredible in some of the work he did some of the sessions and some of the things tactically were were really eye-opening um but Harry Redknapp was I don't think I'll be sitting here without him um just because he understood football he understood a player and he understood how to get the best out of you. And I think he got the best out of me,

certainly at Portsmouth, you know, at Southampton. At Southampton, I was struggling. I thought, I've just had a horrible time at Aston Villa. This is my time in the Premier League, and it's not going well, I'm not playing. The manager leaves, Harry comes in, he goes, you know, this is my last in the Premier League and it's not going well, I'm not playing. The manager leaves, Harry comes in and he goes, you know,

this is my last chance, saloon. And I'm thinking, right, well maybe I'm just the championship player. Harry comes in, it just changes like that. He says,

you and Kevin Fedlitz will be in my front two for the rest of the season. Your score is enough goals for us to stay up. And just that confidence, that belief, and like, I suppose I, i felt my height for you for the first time that season and i went out and scored 16 goals i think after christmas

i was on absolute fire got in the england squad and moved to liverpool at the end of the year um so that that little spell of six months was crucial um to my development as a as a player as a person and would I be sitting here without that you know there's lots of things you look at you know would I be would I be here without that without that and there's lots of really key important moments and that was definitely one of them Harry coming in it's crazy how much it's like someone believing in you at some point when maybe you don't believe in yourself can have such a huge impact on how you behave and then ultimately what results you get. Yeah, if you're getting told that you're this and you're that,

you're no good, I don't think, you have to be a real strong character to be able to cope with that. And when someone comes in and goes, actually, no, you're doing great stuff. It lifts you. It makes you feel better. And that's the way I would manage. And that's the way I think you have to manage these days.

I think players are different to how it was when I was coming through. It was very much quite harsh initially. And I think now players are a bit more, you have to be a bit more of an arm around the shoulder guy you know um crack the whip kind of manager when i sat here with like patrice and patrice everett gary neville real ferdinand they all say the same thing about sir alex the first comment they'll make when you ask why he was so good they all say man of management

and they tell this story of how he was kind of this bespoke almost like a unique shape jigsaw piece for each person so for nanny he was one sir alex ferguson and for like for gary neville he was a different shape because he understood everybody and understood which buttons to press how hard he could press to get the best out of them and we tend to think of like management as one being one thing like being one being one person to everybody. But even from what you've said there and what they've told me, it seems that great management is being like a bit of a shapeshifter

depending on who you're dealing with. I think that is exactly right. I think you've hit the nail on the head there. And the boys that you talk about there, it's spot on because you can't treat everyone the same way. You can't even train the same way if you go in you know you're telling all the players to go in the gym and you know do this do a certain weight

or you know be a certain speed you can't it's everyone is different everyone's a different character everyone's a different mold as a player um you know certain players you can like Cantona for instance you talk about Sir Alex Ferguson you know not many players could could handle Cantona, for instance, you talk about Sir Alex Ferguson. Not many players could handle Cantona. Alex Ferguson got the best out of Cantona because he treated him different to how he would treat Gary Neville. And it's not rocket science, but it's a quality that not many people have. They're not able to adapt.

It's like, this is my management style. Everyone has to fall in line with it. I don't think as a manager that is the best way to go about things it's about adapting to to people that you might need to speak to on a regular basis certain people you might need to tell you know some home truths certain people that you might need to um you know constantly get into the office or you know let someone else deal with him potentially you know, constantly get into the office or, you know, let someone else deal with him potentially, you know, you might spot a problem that it might have off the field that needs addressing, you know, there's so many factors to being a manager. And I think Alex Ferguson was proven

to be the best at that. Reminds me of watching that Netflix documentary about Michael Jordan called The Last Dance. Brilliant. Brilliant. Fucking changed my life now. I think I like, I got like a michael jordan thing upstairs oh yeah yeah i was you know if people asked me if i was a basketball player i actually wanted to be there it was uh no phenomenal documentary yeah changed really really changed i'll be honest and people will be surprised to hear this i understood that michael jordan made shoes but i didn't really know who he was before then and when i watched that it was one of those ones where you put it on and you watch the whole thing in one sitting I was

it changed my life you're younger than me I remember him clear as day playing with the balls yeah I mean he I think is the greatest

sportsman that's that's ever been it's a controversial statement you know there's so many sportsmen out there but what Michael Jordan did was

was unbelievable and that like I love that kind of mentality going into that mentality of like winning all casts and um watching that balls team because it wasn't just Jordan like that that whole that whole team was was special that's what I was gonna say like Dennis Rodman he was a character where which sounds much like Cantona in a way where yeah he would go on benders for a couple of days the manager goes listen that's dennis honestly that we won everything exactly but like that's what i'm saying like could you dennis was a huge part defensively of that set up with the balls and uh if you didn't have him

if you didn't and i know letting him i think this is obviously that you know that probably too far but letting him go to ve Vegas for a couple of weeks, at least you get Dennis back for those games at the end that are important. And I think it's obviously ridiculous for him to do that, but that was in his makeup, that was in his DNA. And is it better for you to let him go to a rival or do you accept that and win the titles they did?

All the great managers, like the ones we've talked about, seemed to have instances where they were okay to make an exception. I guess the risk is, what message does that send to the other players? It's almost a bit of an unfairness. If Cantona or Dennis Rodman or whoever can go and do that, yet you're having me fucking show up every day and you're pressing me in a different way, that's fair well yeah i totally agree with you um but i don't know if the boys told this story last time but um you know the story of of ryan gigs um when he turned up for

a team event and he's got no tie on and eric canton i walks in with no tie and a pair of trainers and uh alex ferguson's obviously absolutely you know caned Ryan Giggs and told him to go home and get a tie on like who do you think you are Eric walks in sits down doesn't say a word really yeah because it's Eric Cantona you know and I think Ryan Giggs was just as capable of of winning a football match as Eric Cantona. But where you do, where this does fall down is when those players stop performing.

And I've seen that. I've seen players get treated differently. And that's fine until they're not Eric Cantona. They're not Michael Jordan. They're not Tiger Woods. They're not constantly winning games for you. Because if you set yourself up like that, you better perform.

And not quite often they can because they're top players, but you are creating a problem for yourself, I think, if you don't consistently deliver. But maybe that's the reason they do consistently deliver because they are wired up differently to a lot of the rest of us which kind of makes me think about ronaldo and what happened the other week with him storming down the tunnel etc etc now me and my friends in our group chat we all have kind of different points of view on it you know people are saying oh sir alex would let him do that this whatever whatever whatever for as someone that's been inside the changing

room and probably seen seen moments where a certain player was being disruptive, what was your read on that situation and the impact of it? In all honesty, it's nothing new. I think because it's Ronaldo, it's a huge story. But I've seen over the course of my career, players who aren't playing, we call it throwing the toys out the pram, being disruptive, letting their feelings be known

that they're not happy with the situation. As players, it's constantly happening, so you don't worry. Because it's Ronaldo, it's blown out of proportion. I've seen it many times. I've seen it with a particular player. We're playing a pre-season match. He just walks off the pitch while we're playing. I'm like you know this is absolutely ridiculous he's literally

walked in with down to 10 men no one even noticed he'd gone for the first couple of minutes and um just yeah like just just just fuming um but my take on the situation is I think it's disrespectful to the players that are playing still they've just just won or just they were winning at the time. I think it was something that he probably regrets. And I think it's something that the manager dealt with. And I think dealt with well. Yeah, that's what I was going to say, because I remember you saying that good managers that you've worked with

could keep the respect and that being a keyword respect now if he doesn't deal with that properly without doubt you i mean listen players are on every little moment like if you don't know the answer to a particular question lie and lie well because players will if they if they sense an element of you've been unsure about a situation they'll pounce on it um you're talking about a manager i'm talking about management on it. You're talking about managers. I'm talking about managers. Players, if you're a manager and you don't have control of the dressing room at all times,

it's hard to come back from that. You need to command respect. It's a harsh industry. Lots of players with egos and trying to manage players that aren't playing with those egos is a tough thing to do. And when you've got someone of the stature of Ronaldo, like managing him not playing in the dressing room is a difficult thing to do. You know, put yourself in Ten Hag's shoes. It's a

situation where the club of, I think, I believe, told him he has to stay because they want to play him. Now he's not playing and the window's shut. How do you deal with that problem? It's going to be a huge issue. But I felt he dealt with it well. I think the club potentially didn't do it very well. If he wasn't going to play, they should have sold him. But they're now in that situation where, yeah, he's done that.

He's been fined, I assume, and he's been dropped for the next squad. But it looks like he's potentially getting back in. And that is what is the best situation for the club because you don't want Ronaldo training with the kids away from the first team. You want him in and around it because he'll be an asset potentially at the end of games or to start

some games i'm really compelled by that point you made about like as a manager if you don't know the answer to maybe a strategic thing you're better off just lying than like losing the control of the room well like say if you're in your industry right if you're an employee of yours asks you what should we do here i don't know if it's as cutthroat as football, but I think it's better to have an answer than to say you don't know. Yeah, yeah. Right?

Even if you don't know, because it's giving them confidence. Even if you don't know, you say, we're looking into that. We've worked on that. You know, that's something that we, you know, just make, the moment you say you don't know.

I think there's an element of, um, he hasn't got a clue, you know, basically. Yeah. I think, and I think it was Guardiola who said it,

um, you know, these wise words didn't come from me personally. They were, they were Guardiola's words. And I think it was something to do with, um, if someone asks you a question,

you have an answer for them. Um, even if you don't know it, you'll'll you'll go do your homework and come back to to that question because you you need to be seen as a level above um the players uh you need to have you know more you need to be more clued up you need to have more um intricate details on the opposition you need to know about football more than the players do um so they have that respect for you was there other times you know you talked about losing the dressing room now i hear that on like from pundits i hear maybe he's lost the dressing room you sometimes hear that from like other commentators online but i i wondered if that's an actual thing that happens that you've observed where you go man i just fucking lost this now players start questioning

him you know behind his back or yeah I think I think you can see it when did you see it I've seen it at certain times I don't think it'd be fair to me for me to say names but I have seen it in certain dressing rooms

where a manager has lost lost it a little bit we had we had a situation at Stoke where we had probably the best dressing room I've ever been a part of

and then we added sort of some more talented players more than sort of hard working honest players if you like

and we had for a spell we had a really good mix of that real quality and that kind of determination and spirit and then it went too far the other way it was you know almost almost too much quality and not enough effort determination team spirit

ethics standards they slipped you know and i've seen things that i'd never seen before um i talked about the player walking off the pitch that happened in that season and it culminated in relegation, you know? So when you talk about lost the dressing room, I class myself in that scenario because I was more of a, I was an older player then and maybe I let things go a bit as well.

Not my standards personally didn't drop, but I let people get away with things. When I was an older player, I should have been the Steven Gerrard in the situation. I should have been a player that flagged it up maybe. That wrangles with me. I let things go. I know it wasn't my job to do that

but I was an experienced player When you say you've not seen you saw things you hadn't seen before it kind of reminded me somewhat of what I remember Rio saying

about when he moved to I think it was QPR from Manchester United and he saw just a completely different dressing room culture Yeah exactly right our friends with Rio

I speak to him about that time feels similar feels similar in some ways like you you have all those too too many um doing what they want um you know just being late or little little things like that like being being late being late on the training pitch being late um for games you know not wearing the right suit or not wearing the right track suit to games wearing whatever they want you know wearing caps when you're not supposed to um just little things like that it makes you become lax like and we might go a goal down two goals down and you can see players sort of you know waving their arms around and not tracking back

and I remember asking a particular player like you stop trying you stop working and he said yeah that's what he said I did yeah I said why he said we were three down I couldn't believe it that's you know it's 30,000 people in a stadium right that pay to watch us play and you've given up and I know it's horrible those games they're horrible

you just but at least you got those run round and that's that's when I knew we were in big trouble it's funny that it's the small the small things

they all add up yeah they all add up does that not start with a manager though in those situations where the manager's just not calling it out enough he's not punishing you know he lets one thing slide lets two things slide before you know it you're at the bottom of the fucking slope yeah that was exactly what happened um there were certain things that were let go and you're like well and then you feel like you can get away with more with more with more and there was a certain thing where you'd have to run after a game if you didn't play so at that time like i was on i was 37 years old you know i was

sometimes i was on the bench and i'd be out there running and you know there was a younger player not not out after the game doing his fitness work and And I came in, I'm like, what's going on? You know, why am I 37? I'm out here running after a game and this 25-year-old is not, so he didn't want to. He didn't want to. Didn't want to. Right, so these are the standards I'm talking about.

So, but you've got to. You've been asked to do it you don't pick and choose whether you do it or not but that was allowed to happen anyway it happened again anyway so this particular player said right because he hasn't run after um the game we're all in on sunday right so the whole team come in on sunday um we were coming this is supposed to be our day off so we're all in training and the particular player didn't turn up for training right

so we're all in because of him and he doesn't turn up so I mean you can imagine what the lads are like but just little I say little things I mean that was a big thing but just standard slip in

and listen you know it all ends everyone knows where it ends it ends badly When did you decide that your football career was over?

Tell me about that decision and that time in your life Yeah I was lucky I got the opportunity to get out of that dressing room that I was in at Stoke which was difficult

and I got the opportunity to play for the exact opposite at Burnley and I finished in the Premier League and I knew that I was done that season

because I was on the bench a lot and there was players playing ahead of me that I knew should have been ahead of me. And I thought to myself, I am just a plan B now. I'm coming on at the end of games and I still felt fit. I still felt I could have an impact,

but I knew inside my own head. So I told my family, I told, you know, I told Abby and I told, you know, the kids were still very young. And we all went to the game. So they, you know, they didn't all come, I, you know, a young baby, you know, they didn't often come to the games now. I didn't play much.

So they all came and it was nice because I knew, no one else knew, but I knew that it was my last game of football was against Arsenal at Burnley and all the family came on and you know when you walk around the pitch at the end and I've got a picture at home on the wall of me and it was three kids we had at the time. I've got four now, believe it or not. But the three of us on the pitch and a lovely picture of me walking out.

It was my last game of professional football. I must have played, you know, 600, 700 games. It games it was my last game I knew it but no one else did um but yeah lovely picture lovely moment and then it just sort of comes flooding in that it's it's over 20 years I played I left school at 16 I retired at 38 22 years every day of my life doing something that you loved I look back on it with such fond memories. I was so lucky to have played in an era that was full of great players. I managed to play for England and, you know, I probably exceeded what I thought I could ever achieve.

So I always look back on it fondly when people ask me, do you miss it? No, I don't miss it? No, I don't miss it. I cherish the moments that I had. And your dad, was your dad there that day? I know you played a huge role. Yeah,

my dad was there that day, yeah. And, you know, he was the one, because he was there every single, I don't think he missed a game. And he was part of my superstition,

bizarrely. He was part of, you know, if I didn't see him before a game, I'd feel unnerved. You know, I'd feel unnerved you know I'd feel like where is he

and don't get me wrong there were times where I was on the bench towards the end and he got a season to get a QPR and deservedly so you know

I didn't want to put him through that but it was yeah I mean he was with me every step of the way he came through every game yeah

I don't think he missed many handful you know of those 600, 700, right from when I was a kid. So yeah, it was like a comfort blanket when I saw him. And he would watch me, not even at kick-off, he would watch me, he'd be the first in the stadium. I would walk out before the warm-up

and I'd see him and I'd always see him you know six foot five I'd always be able to see him uh and he'd give me a little wave and he'd watch how I warmed up and then after the game

he'd even say like I knew you'd have a good game in the warm-up because he'd always watch even the warm-up so yeah When your career ended did you ever

ever have a conversation with him about um about your journey in football I guess was there ever like any conclusive conversations about how it all went?

Yeah, you know what? Like we had sort of like a bit of a retirement video, if you like, and I've got together a load of ex-players and managers that I played with, which was nice and made it, put it on a big screen. But I don't think I've ever sat down

and discussed at length um my career I mean life's too busy isn't it you know like I look at I've got a you know a wall like you have and a few sort of accolades match balls ignorant caps on the wall only one particular room I only allowed like a little dungeon room um but I've got them on the wall and I look back and I look got some pictures on there and I look at the moments and I look back and I look at some pictures on there and I look at the moments and I think like they were some great times

but like I say life moves quick and I love I love what I'm doing now and I've gone straight into doing other things and I was very conscious of that like I planned I planned a little bit of that

you know I planned while I was still playing I did the podcast and I did the first book that I did and like and I did my coaching badges as well so my coach I thought you know maybe I'll be a manager I didn't know but I just basically I was so scared of waking up on that Monday because every player that I've ever played with just says to me like when you're retired like you've forgotten like that you it's difficult

it's hard to get your head around it keep playing as long as you can you always hear these horror stories so I was so worried about it I just thought

right I need to do everything now before I retire and I think it was the best thing I ever did was to stay was to do things while I was still playing

to test things out and see what I want to go into and start building that bridge I guess a little bit yeah to the other side if you like and like I say while I was still playing to test things out and see what I want to go into and... Start building that bridge, I guess. A little bit, yeah, to the other side, if you like. And like I say, the book and the podcast just went bang and that I just got propelled into a world in the media, really.

Was there ever a moment after you'd retired where you had a bit of a down day and you thought, you know, because I remember reading, I think in your book where you had a bit of a down day and you thought, you know, because I remember reading, I think in your book where you talk about how you spend those 20 years, like everything's sorted for you, your schedule's sorted, you know where you're going to be, you kind of know there's so much structure in your life and then suddenly the structure's gone

and a real clear sense of like orientation and collective purpose has gone. Was there ever a post-retirement moment where you go, ugh? I don't think I've had that. Really? And I feel really lucky. Like,

because I know so many players that have really struggled since they retired. But I feel so lucky in what I'm doing now. Like, I'd love to sit here and I've got to be honest with you.

No. I can't. I haven't had that. And what I don't like is not having that structure. Like, for instance, I know exactly where I'm going to be on September the 16th on you know February the 12th I know where I'm going to be I know where

I'm going to be training but now I couldn't tell you what I'm doing next week like things come up things change um I don't like that I like I've been institutionalized if you like I'm in a I like getting told on a Monday we do this you know I don't want to it was I suppose for 20 years I didn't have to grow up yeah you know now I do um I came straight from school to people no they should take our passports off us you know we weren't even allowed to they didn't trust us enough to to get ourselves to the airport you know it was that's how football is everything's done for you so you can purely concentrate on football and I quite like that in a weird way because you you solely focus on

one thing whereas now there's lots of different things that I do um and lots of choice choices yeah like lots of decisions to make it's like being an adult it's not great it reminds me of you know

Raphael Rowe who was the guy who was imprisoned when he was younger for a crime he didn't commit sentenced to life came out and he was telling me

he was like honestly when I came out I went to a supermarket and there's like seven types of beans and he stood in the supermarket going what the fuck do I do what do i do he hated it and you'd have him and his partner would clash because he was never used to making decisions in prison you get one type of fucking beans so true though i like that i honestly like with with football like you are you that you are

told where to be what to do at all times until you're on the football pitch but even something really that as well you know your manager's telling you what to do but I quite liked it in some ways but obviously the freedom is great in other ways you know like I have a Christmas now I can spend time with the kids if I choose to have a week off during the winter I can have that you know there's there's pros and negatives to both. Are you a workaholic? I think I've got a good work ethic, definitely. Without doubt, I enjoy it. I enjoy getting up and having a purpose. Do you feel like you're out of balance though?

Yeah, I'm finding the balance really tough. Okay, same. Really tough. Obviously, you know, speak to other about this as well, because I struggle. Like I'll have one week where I'm constantly on the go and then one week, you know, a to her about this as well because we, I struggle, like I'll have one week where I'm constantly on the go and then one week, you know, a little bit quieter

but yeah, I sort of sold her the dream of retirement as being retirement and it hasn't quite worked out that way because I love doing what I'm doing. Why did you sell her? Well,

I sold her like we began the gym every day, you know, little juices. We'd be on dog walks. I said, you know, little juices and rips. We'd be on dog walks. I said, you know, we'll just roam. Yeah, we'll go to quality time. And yeah, it's not quite worked out that way. But she knows I'm passionate about what I do.

I'm very, I love what I do now. And I'm still involved in football, which I love. You know, like I say, I do the podcast um I'm still involved in football which I love you know like I like I say I do the podcast that I absolutely love doing um and various other bits and pieces come up and I'm in a fortunate position I know I'm in a fortunate position to be able to pick and choose the stuff that I do and I do it purely for enjoyment um and of course you know I try and make it the best it can be and so I can earn off it. But the main focus was the same as my football career really was to do something that you enjoy. And I'm lucky

in the fact that I, I can still do that. Is your main, um, dispute in your relationship, because this is the answer for mine is, is this issue of quality time is like, that's the thing I struggle with most is doing all this stuff and constantly and then being there to be to give this person quality time that they want where you just go for the fucking walk and you just do like nothing it seems like nothing but obviously there's something it's something picnic but you must find that hard like i i find that hard to but she's the same you know like um i think it'd be easy to say that, I don't know, like there's a misconception of maybe footballers' wives

that, you know, they just relax all day. And, you know, she's so driven. And she drives me, to be honest. And she's, I run all my decisions past her. And I don't think a lot of people know that about her, but she's like, she's on it. And, you know, so that's good in the fact that if we go for a walk together,

we'll have some quality time together, but we both won't switch off together. You know, like we're still bouncing ideas off each other. And I'm glad that I can have someone like that. So, you know, yeah, of course we switch off at times, but we're still very on it, both of us. So your podcast, absolute smash hit. A lot of ex-players, ex-athletes have started podcasts.

I can't think of any that have risen to the heights that yours has risen to. Mike Tyson has a great podcast in the United States. It's really been a bit of a cult phenomenon the show and as you kind of said you know i've heard you talk about the diversity a few times and it's always you're always you know saying very nice things and saying that you know our production and stuff is is um is great but it is like a couple of lads in a pub chatting yeah i suppose that is that is our thing I think it was it is a reflection of me it's what I like to do so and I think I suppose we could now because things have gone well

upgrade our setup a little bit um but it doesn't it feels like we need to stay where we are we love being in the pub we like um you know having a bit of a drink while we do it um and it feels certainly during lockdown you know we have lots of comments from listeners and people writing in and they feel like they're in there with us you know and it feels like obviously this is a different kind of podcast you know more serious more enlightening maybe um but i try and i try and take people inside the world of what it's like being a footballer. And it's a mad funny world. And of course it's lighthearted,

but hopefully it's a little bit informative as well. And when I say I love doing it, it's genuinely the most fun. When I say to Ab, I'm going to work, she's like, are you joking? I'm leaving her with the four children and I'm going to a pub in town um to record with uh lads that I get on really really well with and um just talking football I suppose that is that is the you know for a lot of people certainly in my world that is the ideal job uh and i'm i feel very

fortunate i've got it the podcast offers people that kind of that sense of connection and community like they are in the pub with you um which some people don't have unfortunately these days in a world that's getting lonelier but at the same time it's not just like it's not just banter i remember seeing the episode with prince william and where you talked about mental health and um those kind of topics and I think one of your your co-hosts I can't remember which one shared um some of the feedback that you guys get from the audience that are listening that particular episode with Prince William how the fuck did you get from the first start how did you how did you how did you get Prince William to have a pint with you on the podcast there are points in this podcast like

obviously like where it all started from I didn't have you know i was just telling a story i don't know what a podcast was you know obviously now i know that you know there's a huge industry of things but i i was just talking literally as i was talking to my how i talked to my mates and uh obviously yeah we built up like a like a big following and then people started calling us about coming up about coming on um and that was a call we had from the palace was was i promise you was you know we had we had at one point there was like we had elton john had called and uh and prince william had called not not personally but you know their team of people had called us about coming on and obviously uh without that we lost the different story it was funny but um with Prince William you know we made it happen and we ended up going to the Kingston Palace

um which was an amazing day out because we we took it you know our our group of lads and we had a beer over the road while we went in and then um you know Prince William I talk about the Samrat you know the Indian restaurant um that I used to go to with my mates as a kid and when Prince William brought in the delivery um and put it down and I was thinking if my you know my mates he used to go there as kids my family and you know he's doing this and it was just so surreal um but like you say we got to talk about a range of topics and I suppose you know certainly in football there's a lot because there's a stigma in football of um you know it's very macho and you have to you know you have to be um you have to man up you know like you you have to there's a stigma and I think that this is why sort of the target audience for Prince William and his heads I think it's Heads Together or Heads Up Charity

um for mental health is targeting the right people if you like the people that don't speak out um so i think he wanted to tap into sort of our audience that would be very much uh don't show any weakness um you know that football world if you know i mean so yeah i think that was something that he wanted to to touch touch base with i'd done something with him called a um a team talk I think it was a royal team talk I think it was called on BBC and we talked about you know mental health and stories in football that's the first time I shared my issues as um you know I never ever talked about anything I was one of those people that kept everything so yeah it was a nice it was a it was great it was a great

experience for us as a podcast and and I think hopefully it helped a few it was a it was great it was a great experience for us as a podcast and and i think hopefully it helped a few people as well you talked about on that podcast going into the changing room and like opening up to your teammates at one point yeah i mean i i found it really difficult to um i'm one of those people that keeps everything inside right i don't i wouldn't i wouldn't talk about i see abby every single like, picking up the phone to her friends and chatting about anything. I mean, I just don't do that. I don't, I wouldn't dream of picking up the phone and, you know, talking about a problem.

But since these kinds of things that I've done, since that podcast, since, you know, I've done a various, you know, the November campaign, I've worked with them. I've worked with various kind of men's mental health charities. And it does make you think. And, you know, I have started doing more stuff. I have started, you know, reaching out to my friends.

And you realise actually that people aren't always, people say they're always all right, but they're not. That's something I've realised. I think the quote from that podcast with Prince William was, you'd gone into the dressing room, you'd shared how you were feeling with your teammates

and instantly you kind of felt lighter because of it. You felt better for opening up. Yeah, that's something that I definitely found. When was that? No, that was the Royal royal team talk we we opened up it was me yeah thierry henry um danny rose who was quite open with his mental health problems

um gareth southgate uh i think dan walker that was the presenter and prince william and like when when you actually get like a group of lads there talking, like Prince William wasn't Prince William, you know? Thierry Henry wasn't Thierry Henry. It was just a group of blokes talking. And Prince William's talking about bereavement. And you think, you know, oh my God, like you don't, I don't know. It's like, that's not real.

It's like a not real life. And you think actually when he's sitting there, he's just a lad, he's lost his mum. And he's got that fucking... Yeah, like, it was an amazing talk because you're not seeing her as Princess Diana and you're not seeing him as the future King of England. You're seeing him as a man who's struggling,

who's lost his mum. And I think sometimes when you read things and you look at things, like I say, it's that thing of playing football and not realising that they're actually on a human level. It's just a fella that's lost his mum and has struggled with that over time. And when you say you opened up,

you're referring to the stuff you've talked about today? Yeah, me personally, personally yeah i opened up about uh yeah looking different a bit you know like and and getting heckled and being sort of that impressionable teenager and sort of dealing with that with that kind of pressure of looking different if you like um bizarrely that's become sort of like my superpower now. It's become sort of me. It's like I'm recognisable. I think people understand all my insecurities, if you like, have been what has probably made me successful

in the stuff that I've gone on to do. When you do look back at your success, in hindsight, you go, okay, maybe this was a big part of it. This was part of it. What are the key things that in hindsight you go, that's why I was successful? Because earlier on you said like

most of the football players, especially the strikers, didn't look like you, but you were still successful. You still played at the very top of the game. You still had the England caps. You still scored all those goals for England. So what was it about you?

Listen, I had ability. Attackers. You know, I did. I felt like I was a good player and I worked on that. Like that was something that if I was going to be tall, I wasn't going to be this, what everyone thought I was going to be, you know, which was that big target you can lump the ball up to, you know, I wanted to have

technical ability. So I worked on that, I constantly worked on that. So that was obviously something that stood me out. And then I had to work on my, on my heading, because I was incredibly tall, but I didn't have to jump as a young lad. And then when you get to play professional football, you then realize that, you know that people are going to jump, they're going to beat you in the air, and it looks ridiculous if you're six foot seven and you're losing headers. So I had to work on my heading.

And obviously it's determination. It's the will to succeed. It's the desire. It's the ability to deal with knockbacks that stand you out probably from the rest. Knockbacks. Ever, did you ever have experience with, especially through the period with Liverpool where you went 18 games without scoring and the various twists and turns throughout your career,

did you ever experience anxiety? Yeah, I'd say so. I mean, listen, I'm not an expert on this field um i wouldn't say i'm an anxious person um like i say i'm a glass half full kind of person but um i would say of course like in football in terms of course i was anxious i was snatching it uh chances um and was i anxious off the field yeah couldn't switch off from it couldn't stop thinking about it couldn't sleep so couldn't sleep yeah I wouldn't I wouldn't have been able to sleep um certainly after games but I found that difficult anyway that the kind of buzz that you get from

playing a match under the lights especially is so difficult to sleep after. I think physically impossible at times. Where are you now in terms of your mental well-being and your mental health? Yeah, good, good. I don't think I'd class myself as having problems. I've had issues that I've had to manage personally, like everyone has, I think,

but I'd say I'm in a good place. I just need to get the balance right between this new field that I'm in, if you like, and family life. I need to get the right balance where I'm working enough to sort of satisfy that hunger to keep going and not miss what is important you know which is my kids which I adore and I want to see I want to see grow up and I want to be at the forefront of

that I want to be hands-on you know so gotta try and work that balance out somehow that's my biggest problem I always you know I think I always hear this voice which is like when is enough enough like when is enough going to be enough? Like podcast is going great. Business is going great. You've done achieve loads of things. Like what else do you need? When is enough enough?

It's a difficult one because I think it's, for me, it's about, it's about like the work, but it's about enjoying it. And if it stops being fun, then I think that's the time to to call it quits crouch fest 19th of november yeah 19th of november it's um what is i mean i've seen it because i watched all the videos from like 2019 yeah that's right i look like a right fucking laugh oh it was so much fun yeah but the thing is like people buy tickets and not have a clue what they're letting themselves in for. And it is one of the best things that we've ever done.

And we just thought we'd scale it up this time. Last time we had Liam Gallagher on. We had Katherine Jenkins singing the Champions League anthem. We had the fellow that wrote the Champions League anthem spoke to us. Tom Grennan knew me at six. We had people dressed as referees fancy dress it was absolute carnage

and yeah now we're at Wembley Arena we've scaled it up Wembley Arena Wembley Arena Jesus Christ yeah

so I mean we've probably bitten off more than we can chew I'm not going to lie to you but yeah great guests and looking forward to it so much what are you promising for this Crouch Fest?

That's the thing, we don't promise anything. We literally don't say a word to anyone. And we've got, obviously, some of the things that we've been getting up to has been a lot of fun. And some of the knockbacks that we've had have been priceless because we're asking things that Wembley Arena has never seen before um but yeah I'm honestly I can't tell you how much fun the last one was and if it was hard if it's half as good it will be it'll be a great event well everyone listening can there's a few tickets left so you can go they're probably they might not be

by the time this comes out but you can go buy tickets online for Crouchfest it looks like I mean I watched the highlights from 2019 and it looked like it looked like a huge group of mates pissed having a laugh that's exactly what it is yeah i can't dress you up anymore but you're welcome to come if i'm here i'll come for sure for sure they look really really good what is what is your goal now what is next for you all these things going on in your life the media stuff you're you're presenting on BT, et cetera, et cetera. You've got the podcast. You've got this amazing book you've just written. Well, it's just come out in October, I believe.

How to be an ex-footballer. The reviews for this book are insane. Much of the stories you've told, told me today, some of them are in here, some of them are in your previous book, but both books are Sunday Times top bins bestseller. What is next?

What is the... Yeah, I, like I say, like this, I'm finding my feet. I have no clue. I had no clue where I was going to go. I didn't know what angle to go for. I'm doing things because I enjoy them. And like, when you say, what is your goal? I don't want to come on here,

diarrhea of a CEO, right? And everyone's got a goal everyone's got a purpose everyone knows what they're gonna do i have to be honest with you i don't i don't have a goal i i don't have i don't want to be doing this in five years or that in five years my goal was achieved like all i wanted to be was a football player. All I wanted to do was be, was do it at any level every single day. And then I felt like I did that. I achieved it. I achieved more than I ever thought I would. And now everything is, you know, that is happening to me is, is the things that I'm enjoying and their roots and avenues that i'm taking but there's no particular goal um i don't know that might be difficult for you to not especially to understand but i just can't i'm i haven't got a a motive or a plan i'm just living each day and enjoying each

day um that i'm given and i feel like i'm blessed in the situation that I'm in but this is genuine that is the most genuine thing I can tell you I don't have a an end goal I think you'd be surprised how um common that is I've you know I think people think that I have everything figured out necessarily like a north star or a god but I've said on this podcast a million times that I've never written a business plan in my life it's really about like doing my best today and doing that every day and kind of being open to the things that come along because goals can also be really unhelpful in the sense of like it might make you miss an opportunity if you had a goal when you left football to become a coach you might miss the opportunity to do the podcast or all these other things well I feel like it's also now

reminded in some way you go like you have the end goal, but like you say, these missed opportunities. Like I did the book, I did the podcast and things took off and then opportunities come off the back of that. And as long as those things are going well, the opportunities will continue to come. And then you might find that you enjoy something else or a different avenue.

And that is where I'm going. I'm on a journey that I have no clue where it's going, but I'm enjoying it and long may it last. At the start, you mentioned that the way you were treated when you're younger, looking a bit different, meant that you used kind of self-disparagement, criticising yourself,

making a joke at yourself first as a defence mechanism. Much of the reason why people love your books, love your podcast, is because they're like really, really funny and they make people laugh. And even from like hanging out with you today for a couple of hours, whatever, you are one of those real funny people. I mean, on the front of your book, it says a comedy genius. I didn't write that by the way. Yes, you did. It's interesting. I just find it interesting as an observation that the thing

that people criticized you for created a quality in you which is seems to be from my very naive assumption like critical now to your success and why people are so fond of you is that an accurate assessment it's spot on um you know I sort of I my kind of like humor and being able to laugh at myself was a was a self defense mechanism where people were trying to take the mick out of me I would take the mick my kind of like humour and being able to laugh at myself was a self-defence mechanism where people were trying to take the mick out of me. I would take the mick out of myself in a better way than they were about to do.

So that makes me self-deprecating. And I think that is very uncommon for a footballer to be self-deprecating. It was groundbreaking. And I don't think it should be, but let's be honest, I think it was a bit not many players that play for England

let their guard down at any point or want to criticise themselves or have a laugh at themselves and that is something maybe that has set me apart that I'm aware of from other players

and that is not me being contrived or trying to force an agenda. I think anyone who has played with me over the course of 20 years will say to you, this is the person that they knew in the dressing room. But I think I'm able to showcase that a little bit more by being less guarded because I haven't got a football club

telling me to not talk too much or you know you're a footballer shut up like now I can do whatever I like and fortunately I've been in a position where I suppose the general public or fans that are buying into what I'm doing are enjoying it and you know for as long as they are enjoying it, I'll continue to do it. And when they're not, I'll fuck off. It reminds me a lot of Lewis Capaldi, who I sat with,

where he's just seems to just be doing whatever the fuck he wants to do. Yeah. Well, I admire him so much, you know, like he's the kind of thing that I, you know,

I love to see. Like, and I watched it, I watched it recently.. You know, like he's the kind of thing that I, you know, I love to see. Like, when I watched it, I watched it recently. I think he was on Jonathan Ross. And I was brilliant. Like, he's hilarious. And he looks like he wants, he's enjoying what he's doing. And, you know, he's himself. And I think that that is what I'm doing.

Thankfully, people are hopefully enjoying it. A hundred percent. They they are enjoying it I think that's a huge understatement and it seems to be the case from the people I've sat here with on this podcast um seems to be the case that those that are themselves that are able to build a life based on being themselves are living the most sustainable and fulfilling lives it's fucking difficult not being yourself for a long period of time. And it's not fun, right? Yeah, well, you can't get tripped up if you're being yourself. Yeah. The guard never slips, does it? But it feels like a risk to some people. You can see why.

Yeah, it's a risk if... If you're one kid. No, you're right. You're actually right. It's only a risk if you're a dickhead. No, you're completely right. Be someone else if you want to know we have a closing tradition on this podcast where the last guest asks a question for the next guest not knowing who they're going to ask it for and the question that's been left for

you is what moment has caused you to be the most afraid in your life it's difficult i think i've been in situations where um none of this matters does it let's be honest right i i'm thinking about football terms i was thinking straight away i went to like what about when i didn't score when i did this when I wasn't going to make it as a footballer? None of that matters, does it? Your family's the most important thing. And when you have a scare personally or one of your close people, your wife or your kids has an issue, that is when you're the most scared that you'll

ever be and I think you know I've had I've had those those worries um and and that's when you you really realize what's what's important obviously when the you know the the pandemic and you know we were in lockdown and that kind of thing. And you realise actually none of it matters. You know, like it was just, it was, I had my family and we were fortunate obviously to be in a nice house. And I just thought, you know, we are incredibly lucky even if we don't have, if we don't have anything,

we've got each other, you know. And I think that was, i think it's the most scared when someone when when you have a scare with someone close to you which we have had and um you get through that that's the most scared that's exactly what came to mind for me it was when i think i must have been 10 and my mum called me and told me i believe she called me and told me she had cancer in her breast because she had found a lump and then it transpired. It was a cyst. It was fine. But that period of like several days believing that my mum's going to die when I'm 10.

Yeah. Nothing. I mean, everything pales in comparison. And you realise that fuck all matters, as you said. Yeah, like it's so weird. I went to like football then, like straight away. Then you actually think, oh, hold on a minute, that doesn't matter, does it? The most scared I've been

is when you have a scare in the family, without doubt. Peter, thank you. Thank you for so many reasons. Thank you for inspiring me in this podcast. You've been a big inspiration for us. You know, like, the production is one thing.

I know you've commented on the production before, but what you have is something that's so, like, authentic and brilliant. And that's the impossible thing to create. To find like an authentic formula that's resonant with the audience that you have and give so much to them. It's like, it's a lot and it's not fucking easy.

And, you know, I watched your playing career. I've watched, you know, I've watched you play in all the clubs you've played in. The thing that I'm like, that is fucking unbelievable, is actually what you've been able to do since. And that says a lot because you got to Champions League finals and you paid for the best clubs in the land. But watching what you've done since, I think is even tougher.

That's just my perspective. And I've taken a huge amount of inspiration from that. Your book is amazing. Crouch Fest is obviously going to be amazing because you guys just have a magic that is like an impossible to replicate and so you got you know like it's fun to watch you guys it's really really fun to watch your journey and to not know where it's going to go i mean like prince william walking in you're in this pub toilet like you know i just don't it's fucking brilliant and it's it's perfectly authentically brilliant so thank you for coming and doing this it's a huge

compliment to us that you'd come and do it and And it's been great chatting to you and meeting you. No, my pleasure. Thanks for having me. I really appreciate it. Why are you laughing? I'm just laughing because I like smiling. I have enjoyed it. No, I genuinely have enjoyed it.

And it's nice to see a professional setup. Thank you so much. Thank you. We're done.