The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett - Queer Eye Star Opens Up About Hitting Rock Bottom: Jonathan Van Ness

Episode Date: June 19, 2023

In this new episode Steven sits down with hairdresser, television personality, and ‘Queer Eye’s’ grooming expert, Jonathan Van Ness. Jonathan began his career as a hairdresser, however in 2013 while giving a haircut he captured the attention of a creator for the comedy video website, ‘Funny Or Die’. This was the start of Jonathan’s hit ‘Gay of Thrones’ web series which was nominated three times for the Primetime Emmy Award for Outstanding Short Form Variety Series. In 2018, Jonathan was catapulted into fame as the grooming expert in the Netflix series ‘Queer Eye’. Since 2015, he has hosted a weekly podcast, ’Getting Curious with Jonathan Van Ness’, and in 2019 he released his New York Times best-selling memoir, ‘Over the Top: A Raw Journey to Self-Love’. In 2021, Jonathan launched ‘JVN Hair’, a gender inclusive, sustainable, cruelty-free haircare brand. In this conversation Jonathan and Steven discuss topics, such as: Jonathan’s intense childhood His drug and sex addiction His journey into sex work and how he lost control of his life The challenges he has faced with rapid fame The increasing transphobia and attack on trans people in the US You can purchase all of Jonathan’s ‘JVN’ hair products, here: https://bit.ly/3CyBBdK Follow Jonathan: Instagram: https://bit.ly/3CzC6UG YouTube: https://bit.ly/3pcXdZR TikTok: https://bit.ly/3JhaOX9 Follow me: https://beacons.ai/diaryofaceo

Quick one. Just wanted to say a big thank you to three people very quickly. First people I want to say thank you to is all of you that listen to the show. Never in my wildest dreams is all I can say. Never in my wildest dreams did I think I'd start a podcast in my kitchen and that it would expand all over the world as it has done. And we've now opened our first studio in America, thanks to my very helpful team led by Jack on the production side of things. So thank you to Jack and the team for building out the new American studio. And thirdly to to Amazon Music, who when they heard that we were expanding to the United States, and I'd be recording a lot more over in the States, they put a massive billboard in Times Square for the show. So thank you so much, Amazon Music. Thank you to our team. And

thank you to all of you that listened to this show. Let's continue. I think it's actually still kind of hard for me to talk about, but I am down to go there. Your square chin makes me feel safe. Jonathan Van Ness! Woo! Comedian and beauty stylist you know from Queer Eye. What's our mission, honey? The conversation starts on a cornfield in rural Illinois. Being a queer, feminine child is hard.

There was sexual abuse and there was bullying, but all that trauma came back in the most self-destructive era. Had my face in a plate of Coke. Then I discovered sex work. I got HIV. I put myself in so many really dangerous situations. Someone pulled a gun on you. Uh-huh.

Take me into that moment. You start off hairdresser, and now your name is on the marquee of Radio City? Schedule's been crazy. How are you feeling? Grateful, and at the marquee of Radio City. Schedule's been crazy. How are you feeling? Grateful and at the same time, really frustrated. I just see so much transphobic garbage all over the place. People really think that there's little kids going to school as a boy and coming home as a girl.

This is really serious. And so this has been a really hard time. And I think being a public figure who is constantly expected to be a ray of sunshine, it can be challenging. But why I've been able to get to where I am is because I think I'm resilient. I have been able to sit with a lot of shame and a lot of heartbreak and still be joyful. Can you talk about your trauma without becoming your trauma?

Do I get to ask the question to the next person? Yes, and also they'll be turned into cards that people will play with their families and stuff. Oh, so it can't be what's the sluttiest thing you've ever done? Jonathan Van Ness' story is an impossible story. Coming from a place of sexual abuse, sex work, depression and despair to becoming the leader in his industry. The story you're about to hear is not only hilarious because that is what Jonathan is, but it's also the evidence that you might need that passion and resilience will take you to the

place that you want to go to. This conversation is going to make you laugh. It's one of the more real conversations I've ever had with anyone on this podcast because Jonathan doesn't hold back. His story is heart-wrenching. It is unthinkable and it's incredibly important. Over the last couple of months there's been this huge rise in the conversation around trans rights and there's been a huge rise in transphobia. You've probably seen it. Today I'm going to ask him about that. Where has it come from? What is the truth? And if you're someone like me that feels quite uncomfortable about the narratives we're seeing in the world, what can we do about it? How can we help? It's time to have that uncomfortable conversation. Jonathan.

Yes. Where do we need to begin this conversation to understand you? The conversation starts on a cornfield in rural Illinois in the late 80s, darling. What happens next? Oh, well, I went to school. I come from a broadcasting family and like a family of journalists. I grew up, my mom worked in the local newspaper and advertising and my dad worked in the TV station. So that's kind of where it started.

I was born in 1987. And that was like another really interesting time in queer history and what was to come for the next few years, being that it was like the height of the AIDS crisis. And I think understanding, not understanding that, but being a very queer, effeminate, small child in that time, there was so much like anti-queer vitriol then um which i didn't like know that's

what it was called but i felt it and it's so it's interesting being like this age now and having like this renaissance not in the beyonce way of like such anti-queer sentiment you're five years old when your parents separate what's that like for you I actually just had a joke about this in my new set. My first reaction was, like, can I have the ring? Like, my brothers are really devastated. I just was, like, all about that diamond. Like, I've always loved jewelry. I was like, oh, my God, that would look great with my geodes.

So I didn't really understand, like, any sort of, like, emotional implication from, like, my parents' divorce. Love my dad, love my mom. But I was like, I kind of, I think I was like maybe too young to fully understand. I do think that it ultimately set me on like, like my stepdad and I, my mom started dating him when I was like six. And I write a lot about him in my first book,

Over the Top. His name was Steve. And so ultimately he taught me so much about what it is to be a good person, what it is to have integrity, what it is to ask for help. He had been sober for 28 years when he died in 2012. And he was like, and he and my dad are both really important to me, but Steve and my dad, like we're really good, you know, role models in my life in a lot of ways. And, but it took me like from like six to like 16 to like, like Steve.

But then I eventually like really, you know, loved Steve and appreciated him so much for all the things that he taught me. Ah, thank you. Stay out. Just for context, the shoulder thing is, do you want to explain Jonathan? Yes, it's like this gorgeous,

like little like tube dress, honey. And what it can give you is this, like, turtleneck moment. But that's giving me too much restriction. It is pride. So we need the shoulder out because it's really like this Issey Miyake moment that's, like, the shoulders meant to peekaboo. Is that Issey Miyake? Yeah. That's beautiful.

Pretty, right? Yeah, I love Issey. I want to scream in the microphone. I just get so excited talking about dresses so he's just told us to what contingent on this interview was us letting him know whatever the the uh izzy miziaki number just slides a little too high we've got to remind him to slide it down so if we say shoulder that's what we mean um how did you get on with your peers when you're that age did you feel like you fit fitted in per se no no um but i did have some really good friends and some people who I think I know I knew really early that friendship was really important. So I always had like some really close friends. But a lot of times I think there was like, you know, quite a bit of like widespread bullying. But I think that that really hit a fever pitch like more like, know like sixth grade like post-sixth grade like maybe pre that there was like little murmurings and like a little bit of weirdness

but I think kids are like so young at that age that they're not really like or at least in my case it wasn't like that horrific um bullying wise at the time it was more like post-sixth grade I feel like but I also it's like so funny I just noticed this like part of me that's like, like being 36 and still talking about it. Like I feel like, cause I have processed so much of it and I've worked so hard on letting go of a lot of that. And, um, so like for me, it doesn't really hold a lot of like, like Brene Brown, she talks about like, you know, can you talk about your trauma without becoming your trauma and i think in like i think it's actually still kind of hard for me to talk about like i have this like harder part that kind of comes up and is like oh like i just don't like going there

but i am down to go there your square chin makes me feel safe but yeah you know i'm saying well you you take me there you take me to where you want to go because i i am in my own experience only black kid in an all-white school i grew up in devon in the southwest which is like the countryside so i remember the feelings of just constant because it's a small town as well and you're different this constant feeling of almost a constant state of like my body was always in fight or flight almost just like subtly and i read i read hints of that in your story but please do tell me um what your experience was no that totally that absolutely resonates i think i also write a lot about like this idea that like um like a lot of like joy and like happiness can coexist with grief and like shame like these emotions don't necessarily like

invalidate each other so even though i did have have a lot of hardships and there was abuse and there was bullying and there was a lot of othering, like I think that's why I'm still so obsessed with figure skating and gymnastics. Like when figure skating and gymnastics was on the TV, I was the happiest person of all time. Like none of the other things mattered. So I think those kinds of moments of like escapism, like were these really healing moments, why even now as an adult, like those types of things are so exciting for me. And I'm just like so into it because I think it like it strikes at like that core memory of like just being really into something else, which I'm glad I'm still into that, even though I'm like more into my life now than I was then. Obviously, like I did get out of there and I did like you know a lot of my dreams came true the escapism what in that situation what were you escaping from feeling like really

I mean I was like I said a really queer kid in a very like cishet world so my hometown is like my family was like quite well known in my hometown and I was really like unabashedly myself. And so there was a lot of like feedback from that as I got older. So that, I think that was like a lot of, and I also was, you know, abused. I'm a survivor of sexual abuse. So there was like, like I would hear about like other kids and like, you know, whether it was like poverty or like see it on the news, like kids or like, even just like kids at school, like, you know, there's like kids at school who like clearly are going through it and like do not have the access to the resources that you have. But meanwhile, I was like, definitely having people call me faggot, definitely being sexually abused. And I remember thinking like, I'm glad I

don't have it as bad as like, you know, it's like, it's interesting how like, our perspective, like is like, just so funny. Like, it's like how like our perspective like is like just so funny. It's like when you're a kid, you just don't have anything to compare it to. But looking back to it on it, I'm like, I think of my little inner child and like all the things that my nickname growing up was Jack, like what he went through. And I'm like, oh, my God, honey, that was like so intense. You know, like just growing up like there and having. Yeah, it's intense you've been really open about um the incident of sexual abuse that you experienced and how that had a sort of

cascading impact on the rest of your life is there a point where you where someone around you highlights the significance of that to you at that age no i think that the problem with um like sexual abuse is so many and i you know i don't like blame anyone for this because it's just like what happens that there's such this like an um insistence on like like not talking about it you know like like don't let anyone find out and i understand that because like you like it's like you just don't want people to find out like whether it's like bringing shame on the church or bringing shame on like why didn't anyone prevent this so it's like it I don't think it was like I think we just all wanted to like just get through it and I don't think any like there's so much shame and stigma tied up in sexual abuse that I think when it happens you're but at the same time

like my mom was really wanted to deal with things like in a very head-on way and like really wanted it was like therapy like we gotta get like once she knew she was like fuck like we gotta like but then there was like other forces and like other people and you know our lives that were like I don't think and whether that was like church leaders or other people that were like, I don't think that's really, you know, like what happens if you talk, you really want your kid to be like, you know, so they're in, especially in like small rural spaces. And I think that's part of what makes me so angry when we think about, um, you know, when people would say, you know, that trans people are, you know, groomers or drag queens or like all of this idea that queer people are groomers, like there is so much sexual abuse in churches. There's so much sexual abuse in rural communities and

urban communities and all the communities. And when you look at the statistics, most often it is like a man that, you know, it is like a man in the family, a man in the church, a friend of the family. It's someone that, you know, it's like not random queer people um and i just think part of why we have these like fantastical ideas of like these threats to our kids is because of the thing that i was just speaking about that like we don't talk about what really happens because we want to keep it private we want to keep things really inside and so when you're like um when you're drawn like it just it makes it and also it's like this like smoke and mirrors thing when you're saying that it's one thing it's like gaslighting really from this whole other

thing which in this case is like the pervasive sexual abuse in churches in um you know in families and communities that is just so you know know, not spoken about. And we're over here talking about drag queens and trans people. You said that your mother was very proactive with going to therapy and things like that, which is an incredible thing. Yeah. So for the time, especially because even now that's quite seen as being quite a progressive thing to do. But, but back then when you're 16 years old for that to be one of the first sort of suggestions to take you to therapy seems to be honey i was in therapy when i was five i remember like my parents got divorced like i remember like being

in therapy when i was so little that like i had to like look up at my mom like this like holding her hand you know what i'm saying like because when they got divorced we went to like family therapy so like therapy was always very normalized for me and my mom um it's just like one of the things i just am so grateful to her for that she like normalized therapy like thank god i don't think i'd be alive without if she hadn't done that what about if i'd asked that that 16 year old version of you what are you going to do when you're older i always knew i wanted to do hair really like but i think my family was like you need to go to college so i was like maybe i was like i'll be a lawyer or something but then i was like girl you can't be a lawyer you're gonna

i love doing hair i think i knew i wanted to do hair yeah yeah i i think about my teenage years and i think i didn't know the impact i used the word formative at the start i didn't know how i'd been formed until i was an adult and i saw like patterns playing out what were the prints sort of that left on you from your earliest years that stayed with you as an adult I think my fur like I went I think one of my big first phases of like wanting to understand more about like uh like my trauma or like my story it was like eckhart tolle and a new earth and the power of now and like 2008 or 9 it was like when oprah was talking about him and i was like who's this eckhart tolle honey and then i read the power of now and a new earth and i was

like ego i don't have an ego what's he talking about and i was like oh that's like the story that we tell ourselves so like my story is that I'm like this like gay kid from this little town and I was like abused and like this and that I love cheer and I love to like really I'm like the observer of that like I'm not really that I'm like this like that was like when I started to learn about like what meditation was and what stillness was and um that really gave me a lot of healing and kind of like clarity. And then I, uh, that didn't last that long. Cause I did eventually get addicted to meth, like not that long after that. So, but thank God I had that introduction to that sort of healing at that time because I was able to come back to it. So that, and then I think, so then my stepdad got really sick. The one that I was talking about

earlier, um, Steve, he was diagnosed with cancer in like 2009. And I was really far away. I was like living in LA. They were in Illinois. And I was in a really, you know, difficult working situation. I was like in my first serious relationship. And then all of those, all that trauma manifesting itself was came back in terms of like um my sexual compulsivity so i'm like in love for the first time and i just like was having such a hard time

like in my first relationship like just cheating non-stop and being like a like which i talk a lot about in my first book um and so that was when i was like okay i really need help like i don't know like so i'd had that versatile introduction to healing with like Eckhart, you know, solo 21, 22, then Steve gets sick. He ultimately dies. And then it's after that, that I'm like, really need help. And that's like, when I get into therapy, that's when I, um, start to get into 12 step myself. Uh, which I, I think being a non-binary queen, anything that's too much, this or that it's like, so sobriety was like, oh, I just don't want to be totally sober. But I did get a lot of healing there.

So I'm kind of a harm reduction queen. So all through my 20s, I think. And I don't think that we ever get to a place as much as I wish that we would where you're just like, ah, dealt with my trauma. It's like in a box. I never have to look at it again. I never have to deal with it again and i think it's interesting the ways that your circumstances change and then your trauma or your you know that baggage or your ego is a cart refers to it will like manifest itself in different ways but i hope that we get or i hope i get better at um like not identifying with the trauma or the ego like when it's like being a

nightmare even though that's like also a constant struggle. Like ask my husband, like where the fuck is my eyeliner? You went to university, right? First semester. You dropped out like I did. Why did you drop out? I got really bad grades and then I got addicted to drugs. And then I realized that I wanted to be a hairdresser. So what was I going to waste all that time and money for?

Was university or college i think they call it in the u.s um the first time you got addicted to drugs was that the first time you started to seriously sort of experiment with drugs does weed count not really then no yes yes then it was like i had smoked weed but that was the first time that i ever did like really intense drugs you were away from home though right you're away from this the small town the issues of your your teen years at that point so what was um what was that context and environment like well my mom was so right she was like honey you're too young and i was like get fucked i'm leaving and honey i was so too young like i just immediately just had my face in a plate of

coke like the first time i saw cocaine i was like like, like the first time I was like, saw like, I was like, that's ecstasy. Give me six. Um, and the next thing I knew, you know, cause like, like my parents got me like that, like thing that you get at university, like the little like campus, like card for the food. So they were like, your food's paid for your dorms paid for, like, you really don't need very much money, honey. Like, so like they, my mom gave me like $300 a month. Cause like everything else was paid for your dorms paid for like you really don't need very much money honey like so like they my mom gave me like 300 a month because like everything else was paid for right like what else could you fucking mean like i didn't have to work like because like they did everything right like so cool right like so but i was like well how am i supposed to get all messed up on drugs all the time if i only have 300 like that math isn't working. So, right.

Like, that's like, that's like two days, you know, if you're really going out with your friends. So then I just was like, then I discovered like sex work. And then I was like, oh, next thing I knew I was like pulling tricks to like get drugs so that I could do more drugs. And then after doing that for a few months, I was like, and I dropped out of college like through that, I was like, um, because my mom had cut me off by then. I was like, mommy, I'm so sorry. I'm like literally selling my body. Like, I feel scared. Like, can you just put some money in

the checking account? Like, I'll drive the car home. I'll be like, I'll just come. I'll be back in three days. Can you just, I'm scared. And she was like, Jesus, yes, this is my baby. And so she did that. Poor mom, right? And so she did that. Cutely, though, like, right before that, I found this kitten in the hood of a car who was my first cat, Bug the First. And honest to God, I write about him, too. Like, he really gave me, like, the will to, like, not be a sex worker. And because at first it was, for funsies for to just get drugs for partying right then once I got cut off it was like no like I don't want to go back home

and like show that I fucked up so I just need to like figure it out but like that was really not where I wanted to be it wasn't like I was like doing sex work from a place of empowerment I was doing it from like a place of like deep trauma, like wanting validation, trying to support a drug habit. Like it was not a good place for like an 18 year old to be. I was like, it was really like, I put myself in so many really dangerous situations. Someone pulled a gun on you, right? Uh-huh. Yeah. It was really like really, really dangerous situations. Um, and so, yeah, that was like, I mean, I look back at some of the things that happened and I honestly can't believe that I made it because it was really like so touch and go in a lot of situations. Like one little thing different and it could have like so many situations. But that's true of anyone.

But it was really, you know, traumatizing. But so I find this little cat and I realized when I find this little cat, I was like, I want this. I want to raise this little cat. He was like this like little black cat in the hood of this car. But that really was like so super healing for me. And I think that started like I'm such a little like animal parent. I have like five cats and three dogs now with my husband. And that I really think it was just like such a huge like turning point.

Like just like falling, like just falling in love with like cats and dogs are just like so healing. Finding a little cat in the boot of a car seems to be trivial, but it's not, is it? Because really what I heard there is in a moment where you were in a bit of a desperate situation, that cat gave you a reason and a purpose yeah no yes and then it has continued to be like a huge source of like joy and like grounding like in my life that is like really so not trivial like really really was a huge turning point so if you go to hair school yeah where did you go la the evada institute minneapolis oh minneapolis yeah and how did that go for you cute i got better there i got better there and then i um and then i moved back to arizona after i finished school so

i only lived there for about a year um in my mind i felt like my first experience in arizona because that's where i went to college was like this failure and i really wanted to like go back and do better and like not have it be a failure. And so I moved back. And then that was, like, a really cute time. Like, I got to, like, I, like, worked for myself the first time. I had, like, my own chair at a salon. And that made me kind of feel, like, responsible for, like, the first time.

And, like, I turned 21 in that time. And then after a few years of that, I was, like, I felt like I couldn't really cut myself out of a paper bag. Like, I felt like I wasn't a good hairdresser. All I knew how to do was, like, chunky Kelly Clarkson highlights, like, circa, like, Breakaway 2004. You know what I'm saying? So then I wanted to move to L.A. and work at a really good salon and have a Devil Wears Prada experience. So I did. So then I moved to L.A. and then that's when I, like, really, like, figured out how to do better hair.

Because I got a good job at assisting at a salon that was really good. And were you doing at that time how are you doing on a personal level yeah like you're 22 years old yeah like I think it was I was I think I was like handling the move to LA pretty well up until my stepdad got sick and then that's when it was like and then and then like my little like healing era came to like a screeching halt. Also the relationship. It was like falling in love and my stepdad's diagnosis, like together, like, yeah, much all my trauma got triggered and was bad. Was there something in hindsight that you think could have been done to stop the stepdad's illness situation resulting in destructive behavior was there was there was there therapy needed or a conversation or was there it was a lack of a support network or something that could have kind of caught you

in a moment where you were you were falling without really knowing you were falling no well I don't think so because I I realized that I was like doing things sexually at that time that like I regretted and like I didn't feel good about myself afterwards and that's how I was kind of like oh I think this is like a problem and then um and that also kind of started happening like right after I met like my like the my first love and so and I told him about it I was honest with him I got help um so he knew I got a therapist at that time. But like, ultimately, like I wasn't ready to deal with it. And so no, I think that was kind of an interesting lesson of like, you can have all the support in the world. But if you're not ready to like,

sit with your stuff, like nothing's gonna move you but um he it wasn't until he left me and uh Steve died that I and I got HIV that I was like okay I really want to like not do this anymore and that was when I ultimately like was able to get better but but I needed to really, I did it with a lot of support, but I needed to hit rock bottom and then get the support. I hear that a lot, you know, I hear this. I remember approaching, um, got a friend who was in the public spotlight and I was trying to figure out how I could help them because they clearly were in a difficult situation. So I approached their management and said, what can I do to be a difficult situation so I approached their management and said what can I do to be a supportive in this situation their management said to me we've been here quite a few

times and in fact until the person wants to make a change they won't and often you have to let the person hit rock bottom before change will happen and I remember at first hearing that being really uncomfortable with that the idea that you have to kind of let someone get there on their own and even if the route to there is downward first before it's up it feels really hard to accept i guess especially when you love the person do you think that's true yeah yeah but my stepdad always said you know you like not you like well he this is like all 12, like well-known 12 step phraseology. But like every bottom has a basement.

So I can always get worse. And also like you don't have to ride the elevator to the bottom. So like not every like like everyone's rock bottoms like look different. Like it doesn't mean that you have to like. Oh, yeah. Doesn't mean someone's going to like bite it necessarily. I mean, they might. But some people are just like, oh, I got like a dui and that was enough okay other people are like

you know yeah everyone's bottom looks different some people don't survive their bottoms yeah sex addiction something we don't talk about enough we talk about drug addiction alcohol addiction we even talk about social media addiction and screen addiction. But having a conversation about sex addiction seems to be harder than all of the aforementioned forms of addiction. I remember having Terry Crews on the podcast when we were in L.A. and him telling me that he had a porn addiction and it was destroying his life. On the surface, someone might find it hard to understand how something like that can destroy one's life. You talk about having a sex addiction and going on a sex addiction course, I believe, during that time, roughly around the LA time. What impact was

it having on your life and your relationships? Well, it's interesting because i think if if i'm correct i think that like sexual sex addiction like is not like a recognized addiction and like the dsd whatever dsm yeah dsm um but it's whereas like you know other ones are um so the effects i was having on my life was like obviously i got hiv and, but even before that, like I was already like going to meetings and I'd already been to rehab twice before I got HIV. So. Like a sex rehab. No, they were like, well, one was, one had like a sex, like a sexual compulsivity, like course, like within the program. And then the other one that I went to, I found like an outpatient that, that did that work.

So I could like, I went there like, you that, that did that work. So I could like, I went there like, you know, during the day from like this other rehab, I had to be like an, you know, resourceful queen. Um, but ultimately it's like a process addiction, you know, whether it's like gambling, food, like sex, it's like a, it was like a process addiction. So the way that, um, it was affecting my life was like just, you know, doing things that I regretted. I describe a lot of like disassociated behavior, like this like inability to like just get off, like couldn't get off the phone, couldn't stop cruising. Like I just felt like I wasn't like in control of, like I wasn't in control. Like, so if you were to say like in, you know, in part speak or like IFS, it would like, like that firefight in control like so if you were to say like in you know in part speak or like IFS

it would like like that firefighter was like so blended in my driver's seat like I couldn't I couldn't get centered self like into the goddamn car when you say cruising you mean you were like searching yeah it's like a queer term for like what like gays do when you're like yeah whether it's like you're cruising on grinder or you're like at a bathhouse or you're like whatever you're like, yeah, whether it's like you're cruising on Grindr or you're like at a bathhouse or you're like whatever you're doing. Can you tell me about that journey? So at some point you realize that you've got sexual compulsivity. At some point it becomes a problem in your life and you lose your partner in this case. And there's, you know, you realize that you've lost control of that. And then at some point you get to a stage of healing where you become aware and you understand where the origin of this sexual compulsivity.

That third point, understanding the origins of that sexual compulsivity. When was that and how did that happen? Well, you know, it's interesting. I think it's it's that reminds me of this thing that this one guy in rehab said. He said, like, not knowing why he was an alcoholic is not what made him crazy. It was needing to know why he was an alcoholic is what made him crazy. So I think it's a lot. And that was actually a huge disappointment for me.

And I think we put way too much emphasis on, like, trying to, like, understand your origin story. Because, like, once I understood my origin story and it was, like, really clear as day. And, like, I'd done all my work. And I'd done, like, all of this processing. And, like, all of the memories came back. And, like, I I understood my origin story and it was, like, really clear as day and, like, I'd done all my work and I'd done, like, all of this processing and, like, all of the memories came back. And, like, I already had all the memories. But then, like, there was just certain things that I was able to connect and, like, really understand very clearly. I was still left with the scarring and I was still left with the patterns. Like, I still, once I knew it wasn't, like, I was like, oh, well, now I don't want to fuck 20 strangers anymore.

Like, it wasn't like that. Like, all of that pattern and all of that, like, you know, feels insecure, wants validation, won't stop until they get the validation. Then they feel insecure again for doing the thing. And then it, like, it's just a cycle that, like, repeats itself all the time. And we talk about that in sexual compulsivity. It's, like, the trigger. And then, like, the trigger to do the thing.

And then you start cruising for the thing and then you do the thing. And then the shame from the thing just makes you go right back into it. So it's just this like cycle. So, um, really it was just like understanding through so much like repetition of hurting myself. Like, it was like, oh, I don't really want to do this. I don't feel better after I do this. Like, I think I'm going to, but then I don't. And so it was really just like through continually, like, really hurting myself and then going back to therapy, like falling off the horse, getting back on. And also, like, meth use has a huge part to do with this for a lot of queer people, at least. And I mean, there are straight people as well, but I think it's probably like lesser numbers because of like, you know, the whole, like, meth and sex, like, scene, which is, you know, quite prevalent in queer communities.

So it's not quite prevalent, but it's, like, prevalent. It happens. And so I think once the further away that I was able to get from meth, the easier it was for me to heal from. Because also it's, like, and I talk a lot about this in my new show, Fun and Floody. It's, like, sexuality isn't bad. Like sexuality is good. Um, expressing our sexuality is good. It's lack of, uh, it's lack of consent.

It's abuse. It's manipulation. It's doing things that you regret. Those are the things that are not good. Um, but you know, decoupling that and like kind of understanding that and understanding like, are you doing this because you have a trauma response? And so you're doing this or you do this because you really, really want to do it. So there's like a whole conversation about like sex positivity to be had here, too.

And, you know, a lot of people are really opposed to the idea of sexual compulsivity or sex addiction because they're like, that's really not sex positive. And maybe it's, you know, X, Y, Z or whatever. But for me, I think it's way more important to recognize that, like, in my case, it was I didn't feel good. And now I feel better. And I know a lot of people like myself who were able to, like, you know, come more into a space of healing and more into a space of, like, balance with their, like, sexual self. So, but again, just like anything, that's like all the way just like done and dusted, like you're always in conversation with yourself and with your trauma and your behavior and like how you want to regulate that or express that. I would also be remiss to say like, I mean,

I already had a lot of healing prior to meeting my husband. And I think that's part of like why I even like met him, you know, universally speaking anyway, because I had done that work, but having a husband who I can be open with and honest with and who, you know, doesn't judge me for the things that I've been through and he can like create a safe space for, you know, to hold my stuff with me is really helpful as well. I was just chatting to some friends this, um, this weekend, Friday about how we, I was trying to figure out, cause figure out, because the people that I was with, the three of them, they're all single. They're seeking not to be single. And I was saying to them that I found the right person in my life when I was not necessarily the completed version of myself, but I had to do a lot of work to even find that jigsaw piece that matched me as a different shaped jigsaw piece. Like I had to do a lot of work to even find that jigsaw piece that

matched me as a different shape jigsaw piece like I had to do a lot of work and I wasn't all the way there because I do feel like you go on a journey with that partner but you have to kind of be aiming in the same direction at least so I guess my question to you this is a bit of a tangent is do you what do you think about that about like like the season where we find the right person. How much work do we have to do on ourselves to be ready when we meet that person? There's this other type of therapy that I love called PACT therapy, which stands for like the psychobiological approach to couples therapy, which was invented by Dr. Stan Tatkin. So he created pact therapy. And so he talks about an insecure functioning relationship and a secure functioning relationship. So earlier when I was speaking about my mom and my stepdad, and I was like that secure

functioning relationship, my first relationship was an insecure functioning relationship with my first partner that in conjunction with like my stepdad's illness. And then just being like 24 and 25 out of my window of tolerance, could not handle. Firefighters were activated, all fucked up, you know, like my life kind of. So that's that. So but Stan says that you can an insecure functioning relationship can turn into a secure functioning one if both parties want it. If they're both willing to like work on themselves, work on the relationship. And also Stan says that like a lot of brokenness

or like trauma in oneself can actually really be healed through that sort of like couples therapy. So I don't know if you really have to be like a more full, that whole thing of like two fully formed circles need to make the chain. Cause like if you're a fragmented, how are you like, you're going to make a fuck up.

So I think, I think we actually, it pisses me off when people get too much into that like relational expert stuff because like just like we all have our own experience like every relationship has its own experience so we can like pull from some like you know um what's that called like uh like we can pull from some like data of or like like, but like not real day, like just like oratory, like data of just people talking about it and telling us things. And well, my friend, this and my friend,

that, but like, ultimately I think that like, there is, there's like a different path for everyone to find like their relationship and whether or not it starts. And I also think even in my marriage, like,

I feel like we've had moments that we got married after like six months, like in the middle of a fucking pandemic. Like it was, you know, it was, it was a weird was, you know, it was, it was a weird time, you know, cause we just started saying,

I love you. And then borders shut down. And then I was like, if we want to keep, I don't know if I can just not get fucked by you for like years and like a respiratory pandemic. Like I, like,

you know, like, I think I need you to like get over here, but he was British and I'm American. And so we just were like, let's see what happens. And then once you get to the end of that SDA visa or whatever, it's like,

either got to get married. And so it wasn't the way I think either of us ever imagined that like we would get married, but like, we are so happy. I'm so glad that we did. We've learned so much about each other. We were like,

it's like, I'm so happy that we did. But like when I was little, I don't know if I was like imagining that it would like, i'd get married in like a backyard like with only a judge because like you know no one's family could be there because there's no you know what i mean so something beautiful about that though no it's amazing and i'm like so happy that we did it but i just think everyone can have like a different like approach and just because you've had this or that or like everyone just has like their own way and i think that's like cool movies fuck us up though don't they yes they really do you know

expectation expectation expectation and then that kills happiness and makes us confused real with you know i don't know some other shit and that's a really great answer it's a really great answer we do we try and work out the perfect formula for things too much in life but there is really no perfection when you're dealing with such complex organisms yes forming complex relationships so you moved to is it saint louis yeah saint louis yeah saint louis saint louis when you were 25 what was that about why did you leave la um wanted to be closer to my stepdad and so uh yeah that was why and also because i was like couldn't stop i was like la is why i can't stop doing drugs and having sex with strangers even though i love this person so

much like let's and then unfortunately as my stepdad always said no matter where you go there you are so obviously leaving la didn't fix anything and then he actually passed away like three weeks after we left la and got to st louis so it was like bad on bad and then i really really freaked out like then i was that was like the most take me into that moment. I don't want to. Fine. It's in the book. Yeah, I read that that was a very difficult time for you. Because I also just think that, like, we don't need to, like,

I don't need to, like, war story, which is, like, what we call it in rehab, like, when you talk about, like, the worst thing. I mean, there's a way that you can do it like with respect and like not speak you know it's like I was doing this much things and these drugs and but like I also you know in protecting my energy like I've been on an international tour for 10 days like I've given myself so much into like my new show like which has been I'm so proud of it's like my third like hour of comedy but like I'm not all the way in It's like my third, like hour of comedy, but like, I'm not all the way in a space where like, I want to speak to that part of my life right now. So I'm just going to set a really loving boundary and say,

I don't really want to chat about it. It's fine. I respect that a lot. Thanks honey. What do, if I, if I, when's the next significant moment in your life then?

So you, that, Steven is his name? Steve? Steve. Steve passes away, causes a series of issues in your life um you move back to la did you ever think tv and media would be part of your not in this way

no and how exciting that that that like it was such like a curveball but no i mean i just was like accidentally telling a really talented producer um an actress and comedian friend of mine uh who is a client about Game of Thrones and I was like have you seen this show it's like this and it's that like I did a little impromptu recap of it as I was like doing her hair and when I was done she was like that's a series and so then we did Gay of Thrones that was like December of 12 and then the next year we start doing Gay of Thrones that like March and then um Gay of Thrones came out and it's meant to be like one episode but then we got Alfie Allen for our second episode and then Funny or Die was like keep doing this and so then I went really from being like a hairdresser to learning on the job how to be a performer how

to like improv how to deliver scripted lines how to like improv, how to deliver scripted lines, how to write, how to produce. I mean, I was writing and producing and didn't even know that that's what I was doing because I was doing it on the job. So like, like I just learned like this whole new skill set kind of like over the years, like for like three months a year, like I would do Gay of Thrones and I just like kind of slow. And then after doing Gay of Thrones for two years, I was like, oh, this is so fun. I want to do this more. And so then that's when I started my podcast, Getting Curious. And then I did, I got to like learn how to produce that and learn how to research for

that and book clients for that. I mean, I think I did like the first 50 episodes with like myself and a sound engineer, but I was like booking it myself. Like it was like, I was like just learning like all of these things that I had never really done. And so then I really started to get like stung by that B and I was like, I want to do this more. And I always have loved doing hair, but I was like, I want to be, I want to write more. I want to be more on camera. I want to like, I want to do this more often.

And then in 2018, the Queer Eye, or it was actually not 18, it was 2017. I read that the reboot was happening and they were casting for it and I was like this is my moment like this is what I've been waiting for like this is the vehicle like I always loved Queer Eye growing up my grandparents and I would watch it together it was like I'm ready and then I went to that audition and that audition was literally like the scene in Mean Girls when they're all at the fountain and everyone's like tackling each other um it was like that except for everyone was like being really sweet and I remember like this one creator of the show like his eyes like I said

this like funny thing and I was like okay you need to be like you are on Gay of Thrones all times like you need to be on 15 and you just say fucking one-liners all the time like just be the funniest you have ever even thought about being for the next 48 hours capisce like that's what i was saying like in my head and i did like i was just like and i just was like so on why you you know i think so i i have not me darling well i have my suspicions but i for you to you know it wasn't just an audition even the stuff you were doing with um was it funny or die wasn't it the the channel back then yeah gay of thrones yeah yeah um do you ever pause and think like what is it about you that made you really successful in gay of thrones and then

really successful in queer eye what is it about you in your own assessment i don't know really i really don't because i think it could have been a million people i think that i have i think i'm resilient i think that I have been told no so many times and didn't turn around and go back. I like found a different way. I think that's really important. We've got resilience, but you know, just from meeting you now,

you have a remarkable talent for wit and humor. You're very funny and you have a very unforgettable personality you're like you're unbelievable energy and no i'm no but i'm i'm you know thank you no but you know you know i can't do what you do and i've only met you for like i don't know an hour or so and i can't be i'm not as hilarious and witty and i don't know i don't I can't almost describe it that some people just have like a really engaging personality and you have that you have that like energy that's a huge part of it surely your success um because you're in you know especially on tv and I don't know I really don't

like I see people like I have I know people that make me laugh that I think are way funnier than me like way funnier way more witty way more like unforgettable personalities but like I think that a lot of the people who I'm thinking of like had some message from the like in their lives were like they were like either or like their moment hasn't happened yet it's one of the two yeah yeah um but I think for a lot of people that like maybe like backed away or like we're like i don't want to like because like i it because actually in retrospect like i really it's not just i think that like oh i didn't chase my dream i actually really did chase this like with gay of thrones you know like i like i wanted more than gay after i mean gay after i started in 2013 and i didn't book queer eye until 2017 and then there was no knowing if queer i was going to work or not until like 2018.

So I mean, 2013 was 10 years ago. Like I've been at this for a long time. And so, and there was like so many setbacks, like so many setbacks through that time. Your authentic self, I've sat here with a lot of people in TV and TV and media can often make us, it can incentivize us to become a cat like

not character but like and i sat here with jake humphries and a wonderful lady called fern cotton who are tv presenters i love fern yeah so fern told me on the podcast that she spent 10 years as a tv presenter and she i think realized at some point that she was living outside of herself and at least um she wasn't able to reflect the full array of her who she was um and that resulted in panic attacks and other sort of psychological issues she had and it's and it's made and now she's so successful doing happy place where she's able to be herself so this conversation around or like being your authentic self being the pathway to your greatest success what what is your take on that this idea of like showing up as yourself regardless of the temptations

or disincentivizations or incentivizations to be something else how important to you has been being yourself regardless it's such because like even like because cause I, I, I totally understand, but even that feels like, um, I don't think like what is like all the way authentic. What's like all the way yourself. Cause I always get leery when we're like, cause like if, if the alternative is like, I don't think that there's a such thing as being like all the way yourself or not yourself at all. Like, so I think it's like a spectrum, like everything is kind of really much more of like a spectrum than it is like a spectrum like everything is kind of really much more of

like a spectrum than it is like a binary like choice so and like when she was saying with Fern it was like you know she's like a tv presenter but she couldn't show like the fullness of herself so like that's why I wrote over the top because I and I and I think in love that's where I say like or no it's an over the top I say that like I love an episode of queer eye just as much as the next person but if I can't tell you my full truth and tell you who I really am, then like I can't help other people like me. And I actually can't even be myself. And then the whole crux of Over the Top is,

and what I ask in the book is like, would you still want to have a selfie with me? Like, would you still love me if you knew my whole story? And so that's, you know, and then I say and love that story that the resounding answer that I got from so many people was yes. You know, I do still love you. And like in most cases, it was like even more so. But were there parts?

I think we always have parts of ourselves that are informed by external factors. Like if I didn't get feedback from people when I go like when I say something funny, that if I didn't get positive feedback from that would I still be making all those jokes like so does that mean I'm not really you know what I'm saying like every every way that we show up in the world is because of like our socialization our relationships like our communities like I don't think that that makes you like it's really like your relationship with yourself and I don't think that like I don't think there's like authentic and like inauthentic. There's like, there's like,

sometimes I'm more like this because of this thing. And sometimes I'm more like that because of that thing. You know what I mean? Perfect. Makes perfect sense. That's so interesting. But it is the truth. And you know what I think is actually more authentic is like being able to like speak to what you're actually feeling

like in the moment. Like, I feel like earlier when we were saying like, um, like I literally caught myself. I was like, Oh, like, you know, Brene Brown says, can you talk about your trauma without becoming your trauma? And I was like literally laying that up. Cause I was feeling vulnerable with you. I was, and I didn't like it. So I was like, Oh yeah, I totally can. Like I can totally speak and it like, doesn't really hurt me. So I don't really want to talk about it that much. Cause it's like, but then it's like, actually that was really a protector part that was coming up because I didn't want to talk about it. And I felt like I was going to become my trauma because I am a little tired and I am a little

run down after the last two weeks. I've worked my fucking ass off for these last two weeks. And another thing that's interesting that I don't really want to talk about, but when I was originally supposed to, when we were going to do this the last time I had like a really close family member die super young super out of the blue like which we don't but she got strep throat and died in four days my sister-in-law and so that's why I wasn't in the United Kingdom which I also didn't ever talk about publicly because it's like not anything I wanted to talk about but like it's I think really what being authentic is, is having the courage and like the vulnerability to say like, this is what I'm going through.

Like, this is like actually the thought that I actually had in my head. Like when I was about to try to lie to you, like this is really what it was. And like, for me, it's like, sometimes it's like, if you come up to me for a selfie and like, especially on that day, like with Leslie, my sister-in-law, like I wasn't taking selfies. It wasn't in a good mood. When my cat fell out of a window and you asked me for a selfie, I wasn't going to take a selfie. And sometimes I'll be like, yeah, like, let's just like, let's do it. But then sometimes, but you know, normally if my life is okay and I'm not going through like some horrific trauma,

that's not the energy I give you when you want a selfie. I'm like, yeah, girl, like, it's like, let's do it. But sometimes I'm not always like that. And so I think that's really what's authentic is saying that like, just because you always see me, like, or the two episodes of Queer Eye that you saw of me five years ago, and you remember me saying some funny, quippy things. What's really authentic is me being able to be like, that's not always who I am. And there's actually like a fuller picture there.

So I feel like that is like what authentic is. But there have been moments like, where I was probably like, totally someone asking for a selfie. And I was like, sure, girl, let's do it. and on the inside, I was like, I want to die. Like, I don't feel good. I feel awful, and then the expectation of someone that I need to perform that for them constantly, no matter what's going on, that shit wears me out, which is why I can't do it all the time. So, like, that's, yeah. I just think authenticity is, like, this, like, buzzword that we use when, like, really what it is is, like, are you willing to, like, be open about, like, what you need? Like, what your experience is.

Like, what someone's, like, expecting of you. Regardless of how the external world might respond positively or negatively to that. Yeah. Gosh, then if that is the definition of authenticity, it's even harder than I thought. Because authenticity as it's often portrayed is just like being your personality, warts and all. Being, you know, my personality is slightly weird in certain ways, being that regardless know my personality slightly weird in certain ways being that regardless of company but in the definition you've described there it's like boundaries and like staying true to myself regardless of the consequences of that externally which is as you say I have tired days I have days when I'm in a bad mood when I'm when I need some space where I don't want anyone to talk to me

and on those days expressing that is authenticity. Yeah. Yeah. I love that. How are you feeling now? Yeah. You know, your schedule has been crazy. You've been doing a lot of work lately. Yeah. How are you feeling? Look, I feel,

I feel really grateful. And at the same time I feel really grateful. And at the same time, I feel really frustrated. And that's the best way I can explain it right now. I'm going through a lot of grief. I just lost my sister-in-law two months ago. I'm watching my nephews like grow up, you know, dealing with unimaginable grief. I'm watching my brother deal with unimaginable loss. So talking about, you know, how I'm feeling and it's just, this has been a really hard time. And I think balancing your private life with being a public figure who is constantly expected to be a ray of fucking sunshine, no matter what is going on, it can be challenging. So I love my hairline. I love what I get to do with JVN hair.

I love that I get to be a comedian. I love that when I want to, like, do a show, I can, like, there's people that want to come see my comedy. Like, comedy has been so healing for me. And it's, like, one place in my career where I get to be irreverent. And I get to, like, I feel like I'm the most myself on stage. I think that's, like, the most accurate and unfiltered, like, version of who I am is, like, on stage. But I think, like, any artist, when you, like, like, I've just been burning the candle at both ends for the last like 10 days. So like in this very moment in my life, like actually this particular moment, I feel frustrated and grieving. When I zoom out a little bit and give voice to that frustration and now I can like sit with this for like longer like tell like give a larger answer um i feel like

actually it's the same i feel grateful and frustrated like dylan mulvaney is a really good friend of mine i love her so much i've like watched what's happened to her in the press for the last few months i'm like so. I just see so much like just absolute garbage, like just transphobic garbage all over the place. I see really not very many folks really interrogating their beliefs around their transphobia, interrogating like where are they getting their information, and then even understanding like our transphobia that we experience in our culture is like really truly rooted in like white supremacy and colonialism and this conversation goes back like 400 years and so that's like a really big systemic thing but then living in a state where like

this woman literally just lost her life because this guy thought that she looked queer. Like there are kids that like, like their families are like moving. Like they can't, like they can't, they like their kids who like if they have already started their transition and they're like, if they're, you know, 16 year old and they're a sophomore in high school and they've been living in their gender identity since they were like a five-year-old kid, They've been on puberty blockers when they were, you know, little. They had a concert of doctors and their family who cares about them and loves them deeply helped them transition. Because if they didn't transition in some cases, not all cases, but some cases, like these kids will have such intense gender dysphoria that they can commit suicide. They can do things that can truly never be reversed. And so we have

these people making these hyperbolic claims about protecting children and about, you know, protecting children from making irreversible decisions, bathrooms, fairness in sports, all these things. When, like, trans people make up, like, at most, like, 2% of the population. Like, gun violence is out of control. Education's out of control. Like, people don't have access to the food, to the health care. I mean, my book's been banned. Like my book, like Peanut Goes for the Gold, like they're talking about banning. I mean, like this is really serious.

And so like it's just frustrating. I'm grateful. But I think to like have had a lot of my dreams come true, like I said earlier, but then in this like environment of like where you feel like oh my god like if one person decides that like something that I said or did they can like I mean you literally because so much of the transphobia that we read about like when you read like if you read an article about what happened to Dylan um like the way that people just speak about trans people and non-binary people, like the quotations, the inferred like threats or like not believing that we are who we say that we are. And, but then like how that actually has like been

taken farther now to like revoking healthcare, like, you know, limiting access to healthcare, calling healthcare child abuse. It's just really frustrating because it's such like a gigantic conversation that there's a lot of nuance in. A lot of people have been exposed to misinformation and disinformation and don't really understand. And so then, and then I'm in this position of like, like, how do I balance like what I'm seeing happening to friends and people who I love and then like running a business and trying to grow my business. And then with this backdrop of all this fucked up shit, it's hard. So I'm like, you know, I'm grateful. Like, and I, and I'm also like a

hairdresser who loves doing hair. Like I love good products. Like I'm someone who in my twenties, like I would overdraft my checking account to get the shampoo and conditioner that I wanted. Like I, because I know when your hair feels good, like when you feel good about how you look, like you just feel so much better. And I would literally choose products over food all the time in my 20s. And so I wanted to make products that are clean, but ultimately more than clean. I really wanted to make products that work really, really well, that don't cost $100 for a shampoo and conditioner. I just wanted to make really highly functional products that work on people's hair, that hairdressers love, and that people love, that they can actually afford. Like I just wanted to make really highly functional products that work on people's hair, that hairdressers love and that people love that they can actually afford. And I'm so

passionate about it, but like, there's a lot of times that I can't even think about the cool things that I've done. Cause I'm like, literally, like if you read comments right now, but who cares about a comment? I don't really care about comments. I care about like what's happened in my state, like in Texas. Like, I mean, there's like, like, this like drag band that was just passed, like I'm performing in Texas and Austin in December. Like I have to make sure like there used to be able to be like now in this show, Fun and Slutty, I wouldn't want kids there anyway. It is like an adult show, but like, it is like, there is like, I'm like, there was, there's a lot that they were talking about that would like just force

people to wear clothes of their like biological sex in public. That law didn't pass, but there's a conversation around it. The way that we're like trending and heading and anytime where you like talk about like limiting a whole group's ability to like, you know, access like information, healthcare,

education, or just like their exposure to public under the guise of like protecting kids. Like historically, we've really seen that a lot of times like against so many marginalized groups. So I think anytime when that starts happening, we all really need to be super leery, especially because like sex abuse is such a huge issue and it is happening in families and in churches and it's happening in schools. I'll tell you where it's not happening. Is it drag queen brunch? Okay. It's not happening there. It's not happening in healthcare clinics. Well, maybe it could be in some places like I don't, you know, but really it's like,

it is not happening in gender affirming care and it ain't happening at drag queen brunches. It's like dentist or, you know, some doctor might put you under some. Those things happen with these crazy fucking cishet doctors who you find out were like, you know, impregnating their fucking patients or like that is what it's like. Maybe that, but like in gender affirming care and in transphobic narratives over the last couple of months in particular. It seems to have been this this ground and I can't figure out where it's come from. I was saying this to you earlier on, but if I don't know where it's come from, I don't really know. Part of it is conservative think tanks. So when Biden won in 2020, and we saw this in Virginia, because the Virginia House of Delegates, by one vote, stayed Republican. And then because they have off cycle elections in Virginia until 2019, it flips back to or flips to Democrats.

And then 2021, it reverses again and goes back to Republicans. And the issue that they really use there was bathrooms and trans rights, because the Democratic controlled legislator in that 19 session had done some things on trans rights. And they threw these conservative think tanks because a lot of times Virginia because it has off years like they use that as like a bellwether to like test things, like just on both sides, like Democrats and Republicans, but they were throwing everything at the wall. Abortion,

hell no, they don't want that. That's not going well for them right now. Cause most people support the right to abortion. So for Republicans, like that's not a winning thing right now, but the thing that in gay marriage, that's not really a huge thing anymore.

Cause most people support gay marriage, but when they threw trans rights, when they threw biological males competing against women in sports, robbing, you know, your sweet, pretty little white girl of her, you know, hard earned sporting opportunities that stuck, that stuck hardcore, that got people fucking circling the wagons, honey. So, um So that is when we really started to see. And when you were like, oh, it's just in these last three months. It has not just been in these last three months.

That's because of the way that elections work and because we just had a midterm election in November of last year. And then they don't take office until January. And then it takes months and months for things to get through committee and stuff. All of this shit has been in the works. We've all been talking about this. If you look at my Getting Curious that was canceled on netflix last fucking year there's a whole episode about this and it's it talks about the anti-drag bills up until 2022 as compared to that time we have

four times more at that time and the graph was like this so it isn't new and it just takes a minute but um i think another thing that we're seeing is that like, you know how you were saying like, oh, the lion or like the thing of like the tiger's coming for you, run away from the tiger. So that's like negativity bias versus like positive bias. That's why a story of like someone getting murdered or someone getting abused is gonna go way farther

than like, you know, the good news network story. You know, it's your negativity bias. So that's the other thing is that like, because we have so much fear mongering around trans issues right now um that's also part of like why like it feels like it's going so much farther because people really are actually thinking that people really think that there's like little kids going and getting hysterectomies like going to school as a boy and coming home as a girl having like full you know what i mean like people actually have been convinced that like there's little teeny children

who are making, you know, permanent medical decisions with no parental supervision, with no medical supervision. People really think that's true. Another huge issue that we're up against right now is that there's so much disinformation around like the fact that actually like biological sex is in and of itself a spectrum like that's not even a binary like do you know what intersex is do i yeah no i don't so that's the i in lgbtqia there is like six intersex uh there's six my friend alicia rothweigel is an amazing intersex activist her book is coming out it's called inverse cowgirl she also just helped produce a movie that just came out that is called everybody but But statistics show that up to 2%

I've interviewed her on Getting Curious if you ever want to listen to it. But up to 2% of our population is inter and you should actually have her on this podcast because she's fucking major. But 2% of our population is intersex. We don't test everyone that's born for what our chromosomes are. So there's XX and then there's XY, but then there's also a variation that's XXY. There's also some, there's like these multiple variations. There's six main ones that qualify someone as intersex. And so what happens is, and is it like, if a kid is born intersex, doctors, they don't even mark that down. Like they will take the kid, they talk to the parent and they say like, whatever the genitalia most appears as there. And literally one thing that I have learned and have been told is like, doctors will literally say it's easier to dig a hole than build a pole.

So most people that are born intersex, they will make into someone that looks biologically female, but these people will have to take hormones for their entire life. They have to have gender, they have to have genital surgery, like on their genitals when they are babies. I'm talking like operate on their genitals when they're babies and then when they're kids, and then they have to wear expanders when they're kids. Like their parents have to teach them how to wear expanders so they will have a vagina that looks like other people's vaginas. So kids currently, up to 2% of people. Now, when you say that to transphobes, they'll say like, oh, well actually that study was wrong and it's only 0.02 people. It's not 2%, it's 0.2. And either way, 2% of the population

of 7 billion, that's hundreds of millions of people who have intersex characteristics. Of 0.2, that's still millions and millions of people with intersex characteristics. And there's a lot of people who look like they're men who are actually walking around here with XXY chromosomes. A lot of men who can't have kids, it's actually because they have, they are intersex. So intersex people exist all over the place. Like intersex is a real thing. The idea of biological sex being a binary isn't even true. And if you talk to biologists, they will tell you exactly what I'm telling you. And it's interesting in a lot of these anti-trans bills for kids, intersex kids are specifically carved out.

So in these bills, it says you can't commit no genital mutilation, no hormones. Your kid must be the biological sex that they were born unless they are intersex and then we must do genital surgery we must prescribe hormones we must enforce the binary so that's and i'm and you if you think i'm being hyperbolic right now not you or just anyone watching like do this research look up what intersex is because can i ask you a really important question uh-huh that i've been i've been mulling over in my head and i'm gonna be on i think there'll be a lot of people that are mulling this question in their head which is how can i be a and i'm not even sure if this is the

right word but how can i be a better ally um i think everyone needs to realize uh i think the ally talk is a little bit garbage because it ally implies that like, this doesn't affect me, but because I care about you, I'm going to fight against this. But actually these trends, this transphobia affects everyone. Like it affects everyone. It affects cisgender women because like,

even now, like there's little girls who like, they're wanting to like, there's like little girls soccer team in Utah where this one team beat the other team. And the parents of the kids who got beaten accused the other girls of being transgender. And they were like, that's why they got beaten. So as we start to incentivize checking kids' genitals

and checking to make sure that you're who you say you are and really villainize this idea of transness, it's going to affect everyone. So if it doesn't affect you now, we already lost our right to reproductive health care because the right to reproductive health care in the United States goes hand-in-hand with its bodily autonomy. So whether you're talking about determining what your body does reproductively

or determining what your body does as far as your gender expression, like, they go hand-in-hand, and it's all about control. So that control affects everyone. So I think we need to, like, allyship, I think, is like, oh, like, I'm going to do this. Like, even though it doesn't affect me, I'm going to be your ally. At least that's how I feel about it. Like, that's, like, how So I think we need to like, allyship I think is like, oh, like I'm going to do this. Like, even though it doesn't affect me, I'm going to be your ally.

At least that's how I feel about it. Like, that's like how, when I think of it, but really it's like, we need people to understand that like, if you're white racism, it doesn't affect you in the same way that it does for a person of color,

but you shouldn't be like, I'm going to do you a solid and be an ally. You should do, you should be, you should be in that fight because an injustice anywhere is an injustice everywhere and it will affect you and actually the racism and the transphobia and the homophobia and the misogyny and the um the way that we are like so like don't talk about disabled people and and what they need or people with disabilities the disabled community

is like all this does is like keeps money in the most powerful people, the most powerful people's hands. Like, we all need to really come together. And, like, to me, it's, like, the corporate greed. Like, that's really what is, like, causing so much of this. And then, like, corporate greed, because so much of that is, like, made by Republicans, they're, like, look over here. It's trans people. Look over here. It's gay people.

Look over here. It's food stamps. Like, they're like, look over here. It's trans people. Look over here. It's gay people. Look over here. It's, it's, um, it's food stamps. Like they're being lazy. Like that's why we don't, those people are being lazy. These people don't even work. These people are fucking crazy with their trans. Their, their kids are running around. Like, you know what I mean? So it's just a lot of like smoke and mirrors. Now, as far as hair care, we're obsessed with JV and hair. It's definitely gorgeous. Can I just say, can I just say on this, um, your team said to me before you arrived, they said, we've, we've worked with with a few people but nobody's ever been so deeply obsessed in the product and been authentically obsessed in the product as you have so i've went through and i've had a little sample of all of them they are the most exquisite exquisitely

smelling products i've ever thank you have the wonderful of um ingesting nasally um well done i heard this is breaking records thanks um Pre-wash cup oil is amazing. Well, I think for me, I really love formulas. I love formulas that work on all hair types. So for us, I'm really big on like the amount of product. Like if your hair is finer in density, you're going to use a little bit less. If your hair is quite thick in density, like a lot of hair per square inch, you're going to use a little bit more. That's an amazing heat protectant right there that has niacinamide and charged lemon protein in it. So it's, it has no hold. So that's amazing for people who just like want to put a little bit of nourishment in their hair. But it also has great heat protection. Even if you don't style

your hair with a blow dryer or a curling iron, you're still experiencing heat from your body heat in the sun. So it's just a great hair hydrator um but no hold if you wanted for you if you wanted to like bring out your waves a little bit um we don't have any air dry cream in there but uh it's over there yeah air dry cream you could like put on your waves when your hair is wet and then like run your little like i saw it's the foam uh no it's a cream air dry cream but you can like really like take that out with like a little like your little wave brush and really just like get like bring out your waves um you could do like a sponge roller with that um i love our little air dry cream it's great for textured hair it's really great for like 1a through 4c that's on damage that's great for anyone who's got like

highlights heat damage swimming a lot you've sold me and i'm i can't wait for my hope you love it we'll send some to you and your partner oh we've got a huge bag here thank you so much you're so welcome we have a closing tradition where the last guest leaves a question for the next guest. Yes, who's your next one? Who's your next one? What about your life do you think is abnormal and why? Oh, okay.

Whatever. Maybe like my five cats, three dogs, and seven chickens. And that's like maybe more animals than most people have. But I get so much joy from my family. And I don't know

if I really want human babies. I love my fur babies maybe that's that's i think why it's my life is so fun do i get to ask the question of the next person yes but do i get to know who the next person is i just have to ask a random question of someone i don't even know yes and also they'll be turned into cards that people will play with their families and stuff oh so it can't be what's the sluttiest thing you've ever done?