The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett - Reggie Yates Reveals The Secret To Staying Driven & Reaching Your Potential

Episode Date: July 26, 2021

Reggie is someone that’s been on our screens for the best part of three decades. Making his first tv appearance on Desmond’s at the age of just eight years old. This would kick start a career in acting, tv presenting, radio DJ, singing and documentary film making. In the last decade, Reggie has become synonymous with critically acclaimed documentaries. His films include the BBC3 Extreme series including Reggie Yates: Extreme Russia, Extreme South Africa and Extreme UK which are all available to a worldwide audience on Netflix. In 2016, Reggie was awarded Best Presenter for the critically acclaimed Extreme Russia at the Royal Television Society Awards, Best Factual Programme at the Edinburgh TV Festival, and Best Multi-channel Programme at the Broadcast Awards. Reggie is a unique person, the journey he’s been on is one to be admired. I’m sure in this conversation today you’ll begin to understand what got him to where he is today, the factors that made him so driven and adaptable. Thank you Reggie, thank you for your honesty. Follow Reggie: Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/regyates Twitter - https://twitter.com/regyates Follow me: https://beacons.ai/diaryofaceo

Quick one. Just wanted to say a big thank you to three people very quickly. First people I want to say thank you to is all of you that listen to the show. Never in my wildest dreams is all I can say. Never in my wildest dreams did I think I'd start a podcast in my kitchen and that it would expand all over the world as it has done. And we've now opened our first studio in America, thanks to my very helpful team led by Jack on the production side of things. So thank you to Jack and the team for building out the new American studio. And thirdly to to Amazon Music, who when they heard that we were expanding to the United States, and I'd be recording a lot more over in the States, they put a massive billboard in Times Square for the show. So thank you so much, Amazon Music. Thank you to our team. And

thank you to all of you that listened to this show. Let's continue. Reggie Yates, he's a critically acclaimed filmmaker, a writer, a director and an entrepreneur. First time I saw a machine gun was in my estate at like nine years old when the police were raiding a flat on my floor because there was all kinds of craziness there. I mean, you're just playing on the balcony as a teenager presenting kids TV with Air Force Ones and a Mecca tracksuit. It says something. I'm on the BBC and I'm dressed like the boys that you cross the street from subsequently you know i've had kids come up to me bro i loved watching you because we dressed the same we taught the same and you were doing that and when people say things like that to strangers it's so powerful for me empowering others is a huge part of my drive right now working with young talented people and i love that i have that relationship with people

because i never had it growing up. There was always a distance between me and the person that was helping guide me. Shortening that distance for me in the lives of others is what success feels like. Reggie Yates. He's a critically acclaimed filmmaker, a writer, a director and an entrepreneur. And over the last three decades, he's been on our screens. And through that time, the world has

changed. The platforms have changed. And he has certainly changed. He's been involved in scandals, wild success and unfortunate failure. Reggie's work as a filmmaker is extraordinarily diverse, and he's travelled across the world meeting those that have oppressed and those that have been oppressed. And this conversation is the same, incredibly diverse. We'll touch on everything from love, relationships, struggles, family, mental health, ambition, cancel culture, and everything in between. Thank you, Reggie. Thank you for your honesty, because I know that the people that are about to listen to this podcast are going to take a tremendous amount of important value from it. So without further ado, I'm Stephen Bartlett, and this is The Diary of a CEO. I hope nobody's listening, but if you are, then please

keep this to yourself reggie um location environment family where do you come from um i am the child of african immigrants uh both my parents were born in Ghana and came to London as children. I was born on Tottenham Court Road. So I'm London, London, London. And I was raised in Holloway. I moved to South East London when I was 14 and 18. I moved out and I've been a Londoner ever since. And I say that because I've lived all over, you know, London's quite a tribal city between football and the club you support and the area that you're from and your connection to it. I've lived all over and I call South London home now, even though I didn't start there and I didn't school there really. But I love it there. And it's nice to return to the place that I spent a chunk of my teens. So two parents from an African, from Ghana,

Ghana, they came here when they were? My mother 11, I think my dad was maybe 15 or 16. So tell me all about that and that experience because I know that in terms of like education and perspective on the world and all those things from my own mum's experience she couldn't read or write. So we had a ton of wars growing up because I dropped out of university after one lecture so we didn't speak for three years. I know that African parents have a certain perspective and I know especially from reading about how you've handled things like fame, press, drugs, alcohol, and the avoidance of all of those things. I know, I feel like much of that must have come from those kinds of values. Yeah. I'd say it's a combination of things. It's a combination of the mentors that I chose,

the environment that I was in at home. And that massively comes down to culture, you know. And that's why I was really interested in your connection to Nigeria, because culturally, for me, where my parents are from has informed massively, in a lot of ways, my outlook. And culturally, obviously, you know, when you've got West African parents who were born there, um, you're raised in an environment where education is everything, because as far as they're aware, that is the only way to unlock, uh, another life for yourself. My grandparents came to this country in search of a better life for not just themselves, but their children and ultimately us, their grandchildren. And it worked, you know, my mom got an education. Uh, I got an education to a point and weirdly my social

education and my extracurricular activities have given me a career. So, um, more than anything, I think it's the values of an African house that have given me what I believe to be a healthy life. Um, and I mean that in every sense of the word, um, people talk to me a lot about being grand grounded and understanding what being humble is. And I think when you've come from nothing, but at the same time you enjoy everything, um, it changes your perspective on what success looks like. And that was the house that I was raised in. We celebrated every day because we essentially were striving to be happy and happiness didn't come from material goods. It came from success and achievement on a level that made everybody in the house proud as opposed to what was going on outside the family home because culture was everything. And do you feel that, do you still feel that? And did you ever fully believe that happiness

would come from success and achievement? Do you still deeply believe that? For me, happiness comes from being fulfilled. I think at my most happiest and at my most calm, I feel like I'm able to love and I feel loved. I feel as though I am professionally and personally fulfilled. I feel as though I'm creatively fulfilled. They're the moments when I feel my most happy

and they're the things that I'm chasing, if ever I was chasing anything. And what was the kind of difference between your mum and your dad? My mum was Nigerian. I don't really have to say much, but my mum was Nigerian. My dad was the antithesis of that. My dad was a, well, is a older white male,

very passive, very, very calm. Usually doesn't speak. Wow. And my mom was, she can shout for seven hours at a tone you've never heard in your life without like taking a breath. Amazing. So was there a huge difference between the sort of values

or the approach of your mom and your huge difference between the sort of values or the approach of your mum and your dad that had a sort of significant? Well, my dad's a musician, was, is and continues to be. But he wasn't in my life. My parents divorced when I was quite young. And then my mother remarried another Ghanian man who was also from a similar background. And in terms of who they are slash were as people it's very different um i think i get a lot of what makes me me from my mum my mum was incredibly social she loved music i've spoken about this before she used to always cook with this sony ghetto blaster above the cooker and you know it's west africa zine so you're using a lot of palm oil so there

was like the the ghetto blast it's so like clear in my mind it's just covered with red oil and like there was there was no cover on the tape bit so you used to have to push a tape in and there was like marks on it as to where her favorite radio stations were so i was raising a diet of pirate radio and pop um and that was my mom it was just a vivacious big social animal like i remember her 30th birthday because you know she had us quite young and her just went with a fag out window, like having a little dance or whatever, and like turning up her favorite records. And my stepfather is not that, you know, he's not particularly social and he's, he's quite different. And his dad was in the military. So he was, I imagine not that dissimilar to your mother, it sounds like. So, um, there were two very different types of parenting

in my house and as i say my biological dad wasn't present and ironically we're probably really similar given our you know our expression through creativity have you ever reconnected with him yeah um so i did who do you think you are yeah the bbc one show yeah and it's it's really interesting because they they've started carving up episodes of the show and putting them on YouTube and they chunked my episode into four parts. And on my father's side of the family,

my biological father, they've been mixing for generations, you know, like three of my grandmothers are Mariah Carey black, you know, like they're super, super fair because there's been generations of people that are of mixed origin. And with um previously being part of the British empire and being part of the commonwealth and Ghana finding independence in 1957 there was a huge uh English contingent

particularly uh in around places like Cape Coast um when it came to trading when it came to gold etc um and that's part of my family legacy massively. So, you know, my mom was bitterly disappointed after they did the research and realized that her family background, which was just one village versus my dad's side, which was lots of different people from different places in Europe coming to Africa and mixing and so on and so forth. So when we made that show, I realized that they wanted to start the show with a conversation between he and I talking about the family and I hadn't seen him or spoken to him in over a decade. So we met up just before we recorded and it was, it was weird

because I hadn't seen him in so long. And then when we did record, it's interesting, like the film starts with the sequence with he and I sort of chatting and he's playing thumb piano but the last time we saw each other with each other was the day before but prior to that i was a lot younger so yeah i was a teenager the last time i'd seen him so it's i don't know i don't really have any bitterness towards the man because i understand him a lot better now as i've grown and as your friends become fathers you sort of start to identify just how many people are actually naturally equipped with fatherhood and not everyone is and unfortunately my father just didn't seem to be one of those guys one of the things I I've got to be honest I worry about with my own experience with my parents is that there are slightly toxic traits

that they have and I think this is the case with all humans but you know my my parents is that there are slightly toxic traits that they have and i think this is the case with all humans but you know my my parents are humans too yeah um that i'm i'm concerned i will pass on like with through generational cycles and i think the less aware i am of those things the more they stand a chance of like showing up at some point and running the show when it matters the most yeah do you have those fears have you ever had that you know i had those fears i don't have them anymore okay uh and the reason i don't have them anymore is because i recognize that you know i define my my present and my future my past i have no control over but um who i am today and who i'll become is down to me um And that also is massively dependent on my understanding of

my childhood trauma, of the things that if unchecked could define me. So I've always been desperate to define myself, even when I didn't realize that I was doing it. So, you know, growing up in a council estate up the road from here in Holloway and having friends who have exactly the same setup at home, you know, before my mother met my stepfather, we were a single parent household on benefits. My mom doing whatever she could to, you know, feed the family and move us forward. And that was the same for the other boys on the estate. if i was hanging out with cory or tyrone or whoever um their house felt like mine and i was determined to not be defined by the things that we were being taught to normalize you know and as a result i just have decided that that's not the life

that i'm gonna have and my children won't god willing i have you are when you look at your career you you are a tremendous outlier in terms of the journey you've you've you've taken and what you're doing now that's very kind thank you and then you trace it back and go you've came from a council estate not too far from here for you to have gone on that journey and achieve the things you have i always i always think there must have been certain factors in those early years that made you take a different course to those friends that might still be on the estate now. It might have been, you know, we talked a little bit about values there. It might have been, you know, I don't know, something someone said to you, an experience you had, or just the

conditioning, whatever it is. But my question is, do you know what those factors were that made you an outlier? I mean, you sound as though you've done a lot of work on yourself. And in the little bit that I know about you, I can tell you. I get to meet people and ask. So I learned so much from these kinds of answers. Right. And I've made documentaries for over 10 years. So it's the same thing.

You know, you learn so much from your environment if you're willing to drink in the information. Yeah. And I just, in thinking about between therapy and also being present in moments like this, you know, yes, there are cameras, but I'm having a conversation with you and I'm learning from you.

And that certainly was the case in 10 years of making films, you know, for the BBC. So when it sort of comes to me looking at how I've become the person that I am and how my journey has played out the way that it has done, it's an amalgamation of different moments and instances. But fundamentally, it comes down to a desire, even as a kid, to understand and be aware. And it's progressed into this idea of being present and understanding the moment that you're in and why you're there and and taking as much from the moment as possible so as a child i would always ask questions and i was far too aware of my environment for my own good

so for instance i'll i'll never sort of forget going to my friend kieran's oh no yeah it was kieran buckley's house i went to kieran Buckley's house in Barnsbury and my mum was very protective so she wouldn't let me play at friends homes I know you know how that goes and I went to Kieran's and I was in the garden and he had this massive massive beautiful Islington garden with several trees in it and I asked him how come you got a park at the back of your house um and his mother sort of overheard and laughed a bit and it stayed with me and he's like it's not a park it's my garden what are you talking about come on free it in you're in gold mate and then you play this game you don't think about it and then i remember going back to my council estate and looking at the

the one tree that me and cory used to climb and think i don't have what he has. Why is that? And then you start to think about these things and then start to understand class and where you are. And even so far as the area, you know, I started to really recognize the power of my walk to school, even as a kid, before I got to secondary school, I was like, this is really weird. Like I live in a borough, Islington in North London, that has everything from council estates with immigrants and white working class, right the way through to multi-million pound houses. And I lived on a road called Liverpool Road, which is such an important road that I've only become aware of how important that road is to my journey in recent years. So I lived at the Holloway end

of Liverpool Road. And Liverpool Road is a long road that runs through Islington. And at the other end is Angel. And Angel gentrified years before Holloway did. Holloway is a very different place now. And they had a Waitrose, they had a Sainsbury's, and you had these gorgeous, massive townhouses. And, you know, if you deviated off Liverpool Road,

you'd be in Barnsbury, and there were these beautiful little villagey roads. And holloway was where the people that i grew up around lived and you had these estates you had every kind of madness you can imagine happening on my estate like i remember my first the first time i saw a machine gun was in my estate at like nine years old when the police were raiding a flat on my floor because there was all kinds of craziness there when you're just playing on the balcony on your estate on on the floor that you live on and you got armed police there you know let alone the other times that you see other weapons or you see other things happen um and those walks that i would go on where i would be like wow the bit

that i live in versus the bit that i'm walking through versus the bit that i'm going to to go to school i know what bit i want to live on so i better start the bit that I'm going to to go to school. I know what bit I want to live on. So I better start thinking about how I'm going to get to that bit of the road. It's so fascinating you'd say that. And it took me in my head back to my own experiences being a kid. And this really vivid memory I have one day of looking up at the sky and seeing a plane and then looking down at my street and thinking, I wonder if all of these families, this is what they wanted from their life. And then the plane for me was the juxtaposition between a family going on holiday. I'd never been on, like other than coming from Africa,

we'd never been on holiday. So I was thinking, oh my God, people are going on holiday. And then I look down at my street and I look up again and I see this plane. And a lot of people will have that, but it takes a different mind to then think, I to be on the plane I want to be at the other end of Liverpool street um but then also I have some idea about how to get there or maybe you didn't have some an idea about how to get there but maybe just the I mean I don't know if you believe in that manifestation just that I want to be there so I'm going to make decisions over the next 10 years in that direction right well my journey's super weird right because from the age of eight i was a working actor so i was constantly reminded about my difference just by being present and by being aware even as a child so it didn't take much for me to realize

you're not like your friends reg because you're currently working while they're at school and you've been allowed time off school to work so straight away you're like okay i'm a bit different and this is a bit of a weird situation to be in and then you look around and there's a hundred people on set and you're the only black person both in front of all behind the camera and you go okay wow um i'm not like any of these people here and the conversations that you hear about what people did on the weekend or where they're going that even or even conversations about wine like little things that people take for granted culturally anybody drinking wine in my house you know i mean like chaleur was a big deal you know um going to sainsbury's was a big deal like we used to walk to dalston with backpacks to go and buy meat and tinned tomatoes and carry

them back because we never had a car what does that do to you though when you're on set everyone else is a different skin color and they're talking about things that you're not familiar with in terms of like let's be honest like class yeah right absolutely what does that do to you and does it put a chip on your shoulder does it make you more ambitious does it make you think fuck i'm out of place i'm an imposter yeah well it could have put a chip on my shoulder and i'm incredibly thankful that it didn't What it did do was make me so hungry to create an environment where I could feel comfortable. And what that progressed into was understanding that it's going to take me a while to get to the point that I'd like to be at.

Therefore it would be and become my responsibility to create that for someone else, to create that for another eight year old me or 15 year old me. And I feel incredibly proud that I'm able to do that now because I recognize the power of it. And regardless of those moments of feeling out of place or, uh, being sort of feeling as though, you know, your class is being, is being waved in your face. Like I told this story the other day to a friend of mine, who's I'm a godfather to his child. It's one of my good, good, good good friends uh sam wilkinson he's a director who i made a lot of my documentaries with and um he's got my gorgeous little godson in his hands little teddy and we're chatting away and i was telling him a story about uh being at this primary school in israel and where you've got kids from

estates and kids from quite you know affluent homes all in the same school and at lunchtime you had these kids with thundercats lunchboxes and these incredible sandwiches and Kit Kat minis, all the things that I never had in my house, you know, you're sort of looking at tinfoil that hasn't been used 50 times. And you're like, Oh my God, they're throwing the tinfoil in the bin. What the hell? What the hell is going on? They're not being made to fold and put it back because you could use it for dinner tomorrow. Anyway, so you're like taking all of that in and every lunchtime i'll never forget um pat god blessed her uh the head dinner lady uh this big lady big lady um would walk out and she'd go free school dinners and all the kids that were on free school dinners used to have to stand up

and go and get your food and it sort of broke you a little bit as a kid because your mates were just a bit like oh my god God, can you imagine? And I told this story to Sam and he started crying. And Sam started crying, I think, not because, well, I think he felt a little sad for little mini me, but he also, as a father, imagined his son in that position. And I'm sure we'll get onto family and fatherhood and stuff. But I, you know, I realized how much fatherhood has softened a lot of my friends and also has made me very sort of cognizant of my journey and also just how important my childhood was in shaping who I've become.

And when you were there, when you were in school, when you were eight years old and working and acting, what were your dreams for the future and how big were they? Could, could you, what was that internal monologue saying that the end of reggie's story would look like i don't know what it looks like now yeah and then i

never had any sort of desire to create it or paint it i just knew that it was fun and i enjoyed it and i didn't quite understand why i was getting paid to do it really i just didn't get it because it was like you mean I get off school and I get to play make-believe with people that I've seen on telly and you're going to pay me for that. I remember my mom opening a bank account for me because I did a job and this money started coming in.

And, you know, suddenly you've got tens of thousands of pounds in your account and you're not even in secondary school yet. And it's like, well hang on this is this is crazy because mum's desperately trying to save to put this on the table or to make that happen and I'm getting to do something that's fun and it's paying me really well and I get to do it with Stephen Fry and Hugh Laurie like what that there though for me speaks to a really critically important part of like success which is at a very very young age you got to see behind a curtain and the curtain was in my view just from hearing what you said i can do something that i actually like yeah and people

will pay me for it and imagine most kids from that estate all they'll ever get to see is you work in the factory or whatever you have to hate your work and you get paid fuck all for it yeah that's what did they you know well it's interesting you said it because you've actually weirdly picked up on a really interesting point because um something happened on set in a moment um of realization even as a child that only came back into my head popped back into my head a few years ago and i recognized how important it was and actually put it in my book uh and that was um work to me based on my grandparents and my mother was something that you hated um my grandmother worked the buses she um was a cleaner she did all sorts of stuff she was a cook for London Underground at one point. Was it London Bus? One of the two. My grandfather had two jobs. At night, he was a security guard at some random factory in King's Cross. And during the day, he was a mathematics professor at a university.

You know, this is an incredibly educated man, but because he wanted to build a home in Ghana, and he wanted to look after everyone, he literally worked all the hours that God would send. So whenever anyone spoke about work They hated it And then the first job that I ever got as an actor When I was eight years old was Desmond's Which for anyone that has seen it Will know like retrospectively how important that show was

For those that don't know what it is Desmond's I believe is Channel 4's longest running sitcom And it's not on TV anymore and it hasn't been on for years. But Desmond's was about a black family in Peckham who owned a barbershop. And it was a comedy about black life and just about life. And because it was so human, even though it was massively flavoured by this Caribbean family, People loved it and it was massive and it ran for I think seven seasons, right? So the first audition I go for is Desmond's. And I remember going to Humphrey Bartlett, I think it was the name of the production company in Kentish Town.

And we went up to their production office and my mum was excited. You know, she was prepping me on her little cards, like to get my lines down and everything and I got the job and then I had this random moment that when I think back it's crazy for me as a kid to have made this realization I had this realization and that was I was um I was on set surrounded by people that looked like me and my family you know you had Shirley who was the matriarch of the family who actually looked like my gran you had Norman who played Desmond who was the matriarch of the family, who actually looked like my gran. You had Norman, who played Desmond, who was like the super funny old guy. My granddad was this funny old guy that used to make inappropriate jokes all the time. And all the makeup artists were black and they would give me little boiled sweets. And everybody was just so fun to be around.

I was just surrounded by this blackness, but in a professional setting. And everyone was at work and they were having a great time. And something went off in my head and I was like, wait, hang on a second. Maybe what I've seen in my family and their relationship with work doesn't apply to everyone because these people look like my family and they're having a great time. So what would it be like if I did that for me? And that's exactly it. And a lot of people don't realize that and that's why i referred to it as you got to look behind the curtain right and once you see it you can't unsee it once you make that connection that you can love your work and it can be in line with your passions i mean

right now the stuff you're doing in your career is seems to be perfectly in line with your interests you know and i've i heard about you know at one point you were doing work in music and you're interviewing pop stars and you're asking them questions you didn't want to ask them. And it feels like you've really got closer and closer and closer and closer

to doing work that's intrinsically fulfilling as the years have gone on. A lot of people don't realise that, Reggie, and they don't ever get to see behind that curtain. So what would you say to those people who have the dreams dreams but they've always believed that work is a nine-to-five thing it's a chore it's something you do to fund your passion yeah or your free time well it's really difficult in this era because there are

so many experts uh on social media or on youtube and who were releasing books or whatever you know there's a ton of people who haven't had any life experience which is why people like you i think are so important and i'm not blowing smoke here you know, there's a ton of people who haven't had any life experience, which is why people like you, I think are so important and I'm not blowing smoke here. You know, you're having incredibly important conversations off the back of living a life and doing something. And you're still so young, you have earned the right to say, this is what I think and feel, and I'm willing to share it. And you continue to learn on camera. Making documentaries is a huge part of me learning on camera and learning with my audience. And I'm sure that you can attest to this. There's something incredibly powerful

about saying, I don't know, but I want to learn. And when you do that and it's documented and recorded, people come along with you, you know, and in this moment, there are so many people that just see the end result that want to be Gary V or, you know, want to shout advice and be, be the tough love guy. And there is merit in that. And I think that, you know, for a lot of young men, particularly you can look at some, I'll use Gary V as an example. I think he's fantastic in some of the things that he does and the way in which he delivers a message, because some people need to hear it. Similarly on the other side, um, a book like The Secret, for instance, you know, if you don't have people constantly reminding you of things like, uh, a book like the secret, for instance, you know, if you don't have people

constantly reminding you of things like, uh, some of the messages that are in the secret, um, you might need to turn to a book that has them all in one place, you know? And I think it's incredibly difficult for people to, to be honest with themselves about what they're capable of without willing to do the work and so many people want the end result but don't respect or understand the value in the journey and we live in a microwave era where everything happens overnight and people come up and come down from social media stars to reality tv stars or whatever and it just it breaks my heart that nobody's willing to just look back a little bit and see that everything that they're doing has happened before. And it all ends in one way. And without sort of rattling on about it or anything, I had a conversation

recently where I realized how fortunate I've been to have been around for so long, because I've had a career for over 30 years now and I've seen the cycle play out over and over and over again so like being 12 years old and interviewing the Spice Girls and thinking oh my god this is the most amazing exciting thing ever and then seeing their peak because you know I've interviewed them for Wannabe then you see their peak and then you see the movie you see them on packets of Walker's crisps and then you see the fallout and then you get to where you are today and you see how that has played out but that's sort of like a bigger arc but you could go even smaller you

know in the boy band era you name them i interviewed them from the backstreet boys to five over here to whoever i met them when they were new and excited then i met them when they were arrogant and horrible and then you meet them when everything isn't happening anymore and they've got that album no one wants to buy you see the cycle happen over and over again today it's reality tv starts only the cycle isn't three albums if you're lucky it's three years if you're lucky it's three years sometimes it's three months they do love island twice a year now yeah you don't get to a million followers before there's a new sexier you on the show, you know? And what does that take to, I guess, in some degrees, to reinvent yourself through, as the world changes, as platforms change, to stay relevant, you know, what does that take?

I have no desire to remain relevant. I don't care. I will just continue to follow my passions. And I recognized the power of platform when I was 18, when some random kid's mom stopped me on the street and said, you're a role model for my son. And I hated her for it. And then I realized I have no choice in the matter. And the minute I realized that regardless of how I feel, people are going to look at me because I have a platform, I understood the power of that platform. And that started a thinking process that made me desperate to get out of entertainment and get into documentary because I felt as though with that amount of eyeballs, I should have something to say. And that's why I think documentaries have naturally led on to me becoming a writer, director and filmmaker and using art to actually say something. And everything that I do now speaks to my purpose. That journey you've described over, you know, 30 odd years and the cycles and the staying, you know, being at a point now where you can still do what you want on a big platform,

there must've been a ton of failure through that journey. And people don't talk about that because that doesn't make for good Instagram posts typically, you know, like the day you get rejected from the audition or whatever. What are the, some of the critical moments in your journey where you encountered failure or rejection and you had that sort of mental conversation with yourself to figure

out what the hell this means and what we do next? Um, I, uh, have done a lot of therapy and I'm really thankful for it. I started in my twenties and now in my, my late thirties, I understand the importance of getting to know your shadow. And my current therapist who I've been with for a while now is an incredible human being who has given me new tools for the tool belt. I'm using the language now. I'm using the language. And just some of the things that he's given me have really helped me to understand me at my worst. And one of the big triggers for me is when my character is questioned. And I've always struggled with the

idea of people getting me wrong or thinking that my intentions aren't pure. And I had a situation a few years ago now where I said something publicly that offended a lot of people. And my argument was, no, no, but I didn't mean that. I didn't mean that. And what I came to realize was your intentions mean nothing if you hurt people. And in sitting with the community that I offended deeply, which breaks my heart because my first ever mentor, Anna Sher, who gave me my career in television, is from that same community as well. And I learned and have learned so much about that community and that faith. And I felt as though I let so many people down. And in having those conversations and understanding that, bro. It's not actually about you

It's about knowing the power of your platform understanding that you have a responsibility when you open your mouth because you've worked so long that people listen to you now bro and Respecting the fact that regardless of what your intention is If you hurt people you have to behave accordingly. And that was a huge moment of failure for me that I have learned so much from and that I'm proud of the lessons that came from it. And those lessons, I think, have set me up in such a way

that I'm excited about my future because regardless of everything that I've done I feel as though I'm only really getting started now and everything that's happened feels like practice in a way so I'm gonna ask these questions because I I'm scared that at some point I'm on Dragon's Den now I I have a podcast where I speak my mind and I'm gonna say some shit at some point I've said to my team before I'm like I know at some point I'm going to say some shit at some point. I've said to my team before, I'm like, I know at some point I'm going to say some shit that is going to get me in trouble, something that I didn't mean or something off the cuff or whatever. And when I say didn't mean, again, to your point, it doesn't necessarily matter. But if I meant it or not, what my

intentions were, but can you talk to me? And we're kind of talking about like cancel culture here. We're talking about, you know, someone that has a platform that's speaking their mind, that is using words in various ways. So you're referencing there, there were some comments made, there was an uproar within the Jewish community. What was your mental journey from the second you said those comments to where you are now? Can you give me like a little bit of the journey of like you see the uproar yeah is the initial feeling of like you don't get me that's not what i meant absolutely yeah and then there's is there anger there is there this and then there's no anger it's just disappointment

because you know better it feels as though it's the biggest thing that's happening anywhere in the world to anyone and it really isn't but the bottom line is that you have caused offense to people that you care about. You have working relationships with people and so on and so forth. And there's a lot of vanity that kicks in. Hence me saying what I said about, you know, you feeling it's the biggest thing because suddenly your entire world is made up of people who are either disappointed or let down or angry with you and rightly so and you just have to sit in it you just have to sit in it and make those difficult phone calls and also be willing to learn and understand that you were wrong and I think when you are at your core a good person which I believe am, when someone tells you you're not, oh, it's really difficult to get your head around. But leaning into that, and like I said, getting to know your shadow, understanding why that's such a trigger, understanding what that is setting off for you in terms of things that may have happened in the past, et cetera. Um, it's, uh, it's a process that you kind of have to go through that gets

really, really dark and difficult. And then you come out the other side saying, okay, I'm, I'm proud of that dent. Like I'll never forget it actually. And this isn't, this is a horrible clang name drop, but, um, uh, Daniel Kaluuya said to me that, um, actually off the bat, like he and I had a conversation about this whole situation and he said, bro, um, there's a reason that golf balls have dents in them i was like what do you mean he said well you know golf balls with dents go further and i was like i want to steal that yeah and kalua is so right you know um i learned so much in that situation that it weirdly strengthened my relationships with a lot of people from that community and also my knowledge is better and my knowledge of self is better in terms of how i manage myself in complicated moments this idea of the shadow getting to

know your shadow i find that so fascinating it's good stuff isn't it yeah it's really good i've had that expression before um yeah well i wish i came up with it but i'm gonna pretend i did but it's just knowing it's knowing what your triggers are, knowing yourself at your worst and being comfortable with it. You know, I can proudly say that I can't, there's very little that could happen to me now that I don't have something in place to help me navigate it. You know? I've been having this conversation with one of my best friends

and he's, I'm going to take the context because I think because you've had you've been through the therapy maybe you can offer some advice sure he was saying to me the other day that he is so easily triggered in the moment by certain things he thinks it's because he used to get bullied when he was younger on the playground right but for example if someone was to say that he was wrong or present evidence which proved he was wrong or his romantic partner who he's currently with were to get in a little bit of a tiff with him, it's kind of like this red mist and he can't control it.

And then 10 minutes later, he'll go, I don't know why I do that. Yeah. How did you find out what those triggers were? And you said you've got something in place to deal with it. What is that? Because he was like, in the moment when I'm sat with my girlfriend at dinner yeah

and the trigger goes if i walk off that's storming off if i go silent that's sulking so what the fuck am i supposed to do yeah um well it's gonna sound ridiculous but listening is really difficult when you feel as though you're being challenged. And nine times out of 10, any conflict I've ever had hasn't actually been about me. So to have the resolve to shut the fuck up and listen, sometimes allows you to get through the things that are triggering or annoying or make you angry or frustrating and get to the heart of what something what's actually being said and why and then when you get to that it just becomes so much easier because most of the time it's not actually about you you know maybe something you've said or done is triggering to the person that you really care about you sat across the

table from you and if you're willing to get beyond the fact that they're saying something that in the moment makes you angry you can actually move forward together in a way that just didn't exist before the the thing that's jumping in and that's it's it's commanding your brain to try and win or to go for victory or self-defense though yeah that you know that can come from the playground that can come from a comment your dad made you when you were four or whatever so especially if you're someone who has come from nothing and has succeeded yeah you know it's you against the world for a huge chunk of that you know earlier stage it's very easy to need to win everything in life especially arguments but most of the time winning an

argument actually ends up putting you backwards because what you described there is um from what i understood is ego yes you have to build and i genuinely believe this too especially because i was a very young entrepreneur in rooms with you know people that were not the same skin color as me and three times my age when i was first pitching my my ideas and at some point you have to develop a sense of like huge confidence and self-belief which has to kind of flirt with having a big ego because i promise you, like, as you'll probably know,

I don't want to speak for you. So I'm saying probably there people will try and fuck with you, especially if you're, I mean, of course, cause everyone's trying to win in their own little personal war. Especially if you're an outlier. Yeah.

If you are the T1000. Yeah. People really want to figure out how they can break you. Yeah. And some people get off on that. Yeah. And I'm sure you've experienced it. I certainly have, but I don't know. want to figure out how they can break you yeah and some people get off on that yeah um and i'm sure you've experienced it i certainly have but i don't know uh in my experience a lot of the time

when i find those that that that conflict where i find people trying to push buttons it doesn't take much thought to recognize where it's coming from right and most of the time it's not about you i mean books like uh ego is the enemy or, you know, uh, start with why, like they're really, or leaders, leaders eat last. Yeah. The Simon Sinek book. Simon Sinek, yeah. Um, that's a great one for ego. Um, I, I, I sort of learned a lot from that about how to lead and also what true leadership can do and that sort of unnatural thing of not being submissive but allowing someone to find their answers with your guidance as opposed to you telling them is so powerful because it just

makes the bond so much stronger you said i read that you wrote that you had what part of your therapy sessions was to really understand your issue with father figures and the sort of tricky relationship you'd had with father figures yeah yeah uh there was a disappointment that i felt even as a young age uh in that i didn't have the perfect dad at home or at least a dad that i felt that i deserved as a kid because a good kid i was i was working i was doing well at school I was coming to my sisters like I thought I was a good kid and I felt that I deserved a different kind of dad at home especially someone as someone who was so obsessed with tv you know I'm looking at uncle Phil going why can't I have what Will and Carlton have you know I want an uncle Phil um and in going to some of the houses

of kids that I was going to school with and seeing how their dads fathered them, it made me, um, disappointed that I didn't have that at home, but I've spoken about this before, and this is a book that I've been working on, uh, called bits of dad. Um, and I was incredibly fortunate, um, to have bits of dad, um, because of what my mother, uh, invested in me. So my mother taught me from quite a young age to recognize what a good man looked like, which helped me pick the right friends and ultimately pick the right mentors and people to follow. So I say bits of dad because I would look up to and ask questions of Mark who worked at the play center at the afterschool club at my school.

And he would help me with sort of dealing with some of the dynamics in my friendships at school. And then I had Billy McQueen, who I call my TV dad, a producer who I met when I was 12 years old at Disney, who would answer any professional question that I needed help or guidance with. And then there were these other men who helped me with self-discipline or money or even football or even you know conversations about women and relationships and amalgamated they made the perfect father but i had the bits and the bits were enough for me so when you're going to therapy was it a question you're posing to a therapist about how you get a better relationship with father figures or was it a um was it about authority was

it about bro we've had so many conversations about dad i couldn't tell you what it was specifically but i think just knowing that being a good man is such an important thing for me in my future and knowing that i didn't have quote unquote good men at home uh has always been something that i've revisited and tried to unpack and understand and um it's something that's in the front of my mind in a lot of ways as i said you know that so many of my friends are now becoming fathers seeing how they parent and also seeing the decisions that they make and now becoming a godfather for the first time you know i'm not dad i'm dad of jace you're saying so i could yeah yeah you know you you go around you pick up you change nappy

sometimes i haven't changed teddy's nappy just yet because he does massive doo-doo um but um knowing that when that kid gets a little bit bigger I can help Sam this guy who's a mate of mine who I love dearly in maybe the bits that he can't do or the bits that he doesn't want to do and I offer a different perspective as well I I one of the really sort of fascinating point, I've just become a godfather again. Congratulations. Second time last week. So that's, and I'm particularly close to the dad.

One of my best friends worked for me for seven odd years. So I feel, and it's also the child is, so my friend is, the dad is black and the mum is white. So the kid is probably going to look a little bit like me. So me so i feel a greater sense of responsibility it feels like my first my first real kid um there was something you said a quote where you talked about really understanding how precious your time was and the the actual quote is no one like me has had this opportunity so i'd be a fool not to make the most of it I really want to understand that like driving force within, within you, that's, that's still driving you today. And I've sat here with so many successful people, so many successful black men. I've analysed myself and it tends to be a bit of

a cocktail sometimes. Your story from the council estate shed some light on that. And, you know, Liverpool Road, that really shed some light on it as well um and the bit we talked about being underestimated and you know feeling sometimes like the outlier in certain rooms yeah um but that thing about time and that sense of responsibility you speak to is because that you saw that word in your writing that was your feeling of responsibility yeah it's really complicated and I think the idea of responsibility comes from understanding that I was one of the first people to uh be given a platform either on primetime or on children's tv and so on and so forth and because I've always been myself uh regardless of who I was at that time and And, you know, having been on TV for so many years,

that version of me has continued to progress, you know, as a teenager presenting kids TV with cane row and, you know, uh, air force ones and a mecca tracks or academic sweatsuit, knowing that I'm not just wearing this to my dressing room. I'm wearing this on camera says something. It says something I'm on the BBC and I'm dressed like wearing this to my dressing room. I'm wearing this on camera. It says something. It says something. I'm on the BBC and I'm dressed like the boys that you cross the street from. That was like, I understood even at 18 that that was a thing that meant something.

And subsequently, you know, I've had kids come up to me over the years saying I grew up with you on TV and bro, I loved watching you because we dressed the same, we taught the same and you were doing that. And it just made me feel like I existed. And when people say things like that to strangers, it's so powerful. And I assume that that might be the case even as a teenager. And I'm so glad that I was right because that desire to be me, whatever room I'm in,

has served me well. And that's gone from presenting kids' TV right the way through to writing and directing now. Like I've just completed my first feature film, Pirates, which will be out this year. And I'm a producer, I'm a writer, and I'm a director on this movie about three men of color. Men.

18-year- olds, right? And I employed the crew. I am sat there in interview rooms, interviewing heads of department, deciding who is going to ultimately set the mood for this thing that really matters to me. Because as a writer director, it starts with the script, but as a director, you're on set and you've got 150, 200 people working for you. And if you don't lead in the right way, they'll decide what this environment is going to be. And the big concern for me was I'm looking at three versions of me.

I got a Moroccan kid, a Ghanaian kid, and a West Indian kid who were 18 who were leading their first movie. I remember being 18, desperately trying to get auditions for movies and not getting them because it was a very different landscape then. West Indian kid who were 18 who were leading their first movie. I remember being 18 desperately trying to get auditions for movies and not getting them because it was a very different landscape then. So I understand the responsibility that I have today to put on for those guys, for Reda, for Elliot, for Jordan. It's my responsibility to put on for them and create an environment for them

in a way that just wouldn't exist if the man at the top of the tree didn't intrinsically understand them because nobody understood me coming up. That's where the responsibility comes, you know? So this is a tough question to answer because I would find it tough to answer, but I'll answer it as well if you want me to. But what is the best, and in your own self-assessment,

what is the best and worst part of your leadership style um i think the it's easy to say the best isn't it always is the bit i'm great um okay let's start with worst i think the worst part of my leadership style is that i want everybody to have a good time all the time oh okay interesting i do please explain desperately well when you're responsible for the environment when you pick the people if it goes left or if you pick the wrong person it's on you and it's your fault and that feels shit when you get it wrong and it affects people that you care about that feels terrible so I desperately want everything to work out in an environment where I'm responsible you know so I think that that's probably one of the biggest

failures that I hopefully will be better at in the next project you know to be really transparent sometimes you have to replace people midway through a shoot and it's knowing when is the right time and also having the balls to say you don't quite get what we're trying to do so thank you for what you've done but you're not your services are no longer required you know that's difficult yeah especially if you empowered them to begin with yeah and to take it away is tough um i think the thing that i'm good at is people management i'm good with people i'm good on a one-to-one basis as well as with the group. And I think the thing that I'm best at is understanding my actors because I once was one. And knowing that, you know, they just want to do a good job and are individuals.

Some might require talking to before a take. Some might require being left alone. Some might require some coaching or some confidence boosting. Some might require being told to rein it in you know i with pirates i decided that i wanted to make sure that my three central guys were a little family before we even got on set so i contacted one of my mentors um richard curtis right director who uh wrote uh notting hill uh love Four Weddings and a Funeral. He and his wife, Emma Freud, who are an amazing, amazing couple, I met through Comic Relief, which is also something that they do.

I mean, they're kind of amazing. When I was 18, I met them through Comic Relief and they've been in my life ever since. And when I started writing off the back of spending New Year's at one of his places, I said, look, would it be possible to take one of your homes by the sea so I can go and write there? And they're like, absolutely. And they've given me, they've opened their doors to me for me to go and write at their, one of their homes. And the desk that I wrote a few drafts of Pirates is the desk that Richard wrote Notting Hill on.

So I'm rubbing the desk, going, come on, give me some of this good stuff, come on give me some of this good stuff come on um and prior to shooting i the guys allowed me to i asked them and they were absolutely fine with the fact they actively encouraged me to bring the boys to the house for the weekend and we spent the weekend by the sea cooking together watching coming of age movies talking about the movies uh very much about friendship and coming of age, but it's also set in 1999 with a whole UK garage backdrop. So the entire music in the movie is UKG and the boys are desperately trying to drive from North London to South London in a Peugeot 205

to get into Twice as Nice on New Year's Eve 1999. That's the movie, it takes place over one day, right? So, you know, we got like Spoonie on the phone or we got like the heartless crew on the phone and the boys were just sort of learning about garage and they were also forming these relationships and when we got on set everyone was like oh so you guys have been friends for years right and i'm like no we just you know just hung out and in now we're at the point where we started doing screenings people have watched it and they're like the chemistry between the boys is

unreal and i say all of this to say that the thing i'm most proud of is that i recognize what is necessary to get the best out of my actors and as a result i'm incredibly proud of what they've done and i'm just really excited for them because i know that they're about to have very exciting careers one of my actors red eyes moroccan kid and's amazing. He turned 21 while we were shooting, or during our break. We got broken up for COVID. We got stopped mid-shoot. And we went back, thankfully, and finished the movie. But Reda's this young, incredible kid from Morocco, London, of Moroccan descent. And he said to me, like in the audition, I was like, you're so naturally funny. Why haven't i seen you do more comedy and he said mate i only ever get the the the child of terrorist the young about to be turned terrorist role i only ever get those parts he said i've never read for comedy ever because i'm always reading for the same thing which is why when this came across my desk i've done everything i can to be good at it because i don't want to just play a terrorist yeah i'm more than that and for him to be in this film and to be so funny it's just

the most amazing feeling ever to give somebody that platform you've created so many critically acclaimed amazing documentaries right and they're so diverse in the subject matter thank you yeah no just i was going through you i was like fucking it's really just like it's so diverse but i i wanted i wanted to know of all and this might be like picking your favorite kid or something but of all the documentaries and all the moments and those those those stories that you've told is there something where you think this is why i started man that's so tough because there's something in every film yeah genuinely yeah it might even be the lesson that, you know,

you made a crap documentary and you knew it going in, but you did it anyway. There's been so many amazing lessons. So I think the thing that comes to mind most whenever I'm asked this question is the South African preacher. I made a documentary called The Millionaire Preacher. And there was this guy called Mboro who is still active as a preacher i mean he recently i think he got arrested for selling pictures uh to his followers uh that he took

when he went up to heaven wow so he recently i think has been arrested for that i'm not entirely sure what's going on with him now but anyway at the time when we went to make the documentary with him he had a congregation of about 10 000000 people and he was a multimillionaire, several Rolls Royces, you name the car, he had it, mansions, the lot. And his entire congregation was made of poor black people. And he fell out with me because he didn't think I respected him enough. Because I came to the film as somebody who isn't particularly religious but has a religious background I grew up in a Pentecostal Christian church my stepfather was Muslim I converted to Islam when I was a kid and in my teens I decided that faith really wasn't for

me in that context so I'm looking at this man thinking you are literally exchanging people's faith for their pay packet and I was disgusted by him and by everything that he represented before I'd even spoken to him, before I'd even begun to unearth who he was and what got him to that place. And it was an incredible learning experience when he decided that he didn't want to film with me anymore. And, you know, his armed guards were sort of like, you know, had their fingers on the trigger as I was trying to force the point that he should keep talking to me and he was just not interested. I came to realise that it's not about me. The reason I was there was not to have a personal experience.

The reason I was there was to make a film that could potentially shed light on an issue or teach something to people across the UK that I would never meet and ultimately the world as the film went on on Netflix and I had a similar situation when I made a film about um being young black and gay uh I have a a family member who I'm incredibly close to who is a gay man and um his coming out was this incredible moment for me in terms of realizing how difficult his life had been up until that point because of what he worried about, because of what he thought might happen. And I wanted to make a film about that. And cut a long story short, ultimately the film for me didn't feel as though it nailed it. And I was really really really disappointed and uh the production

company that i worked with at the time would always do screenings of the film as they the films as they went out so we went to the exec's house and we're in his house and we're in the kitchen watching it and the credits roll and as the credits are rolling everyone's sort of high fiving each other going oh we killed it we're trending on twitter this is brilliant everybody loves the film and i'm just like that isn't the film that I had in my head. That doesn't speak to the specificity of the experience in the way that I wanted it to. Anyway, point being, I went into my DM on all the social platforms that I was on at the time. And every single mailbox was filled with messages from young men and women saying, we saw that

you were making this film. So we purposely watched it with our parents and I've just come out to my mum because of the film you made. I was able to have a conversation with my dad because of some of the things that were happening on screen. Thank you for giving us that opportunity. Thank you for opening the door. And I felt like an absolute idiot in that moment because I was so busy worrying about being Mr. Program Maker and

making this film that was perfect in my mind's eye. Whereas in reality, the conversation that was being had had never been had before, let alone on the BBC. And as a result, it actively changed lives of people watching it literally changed the lives of people that messaged me wasn't about me and i felt really embarrassed with myself it's really interesting that balance of it being not about you but it yeah do you know what i mean it's that it's that it was it came it was birthed out of your own personal experience your desire to tell a very important story which had clearly moved you emotionally enough to commit your life a portion of your life to telling that story so it but but

also i completely understand what you're saying which is like the outcome is not about you i guess yeah um the experience is yours yeah but the experience that people take from the content, you will never own. I will never know how much what I do affects people or doesn't. There's someone out there right now who's seen everything I've never done and I'll never meet them. Similarly, there's someone who I'll bump into tomorrow who's just seen one film

and will have a really important conversation with me, you know, on a lot of levels for both of us potentially. I'm not responsible for what happens with what is created once it's out in the world and being comfortable with that is quite difficult but also quite freeing in a lot of ways and let's talk about money then so you mentioned money there what role does does money play in all of this stuff in success in your view in in life well i've never chased it which is probably why my account hates my guts you know i walked away from primetime tv that you know is a very rare air in terms of the amount of

people that get to host those shows that get millions and millions of viewers and also the payment that comes with it you know i didn't enjoy hosting those shows i didn't enjoy being in that space i didn't enjoy being told what to do and say, I essentially was being asked to not be me. And that didn't work for me. Um, and in walking away from that and focusing on documentaries, I walked away from a lot of money and knowing that I was going to take a hit financially, ultimately being able to get to the place that I am now as a filmmaker, um filmmaker was something I was very aware of. So money has never been a driver for me, but it's been something that I've been conscious on because you've got to live right. And also I look after a lot of people and I help a lot of

people and I support people. So I've always wanted to do that. So money has always been important in that sense, but it's never been important because I'm going to show you. That jump you described there, where you swing from being like a TV host to saying, do you know, I want to make my own documentaries, feels like a risk. It is. Yeah.

Massively. Talk to me about that, the feeling you had when you thought, do you know what? I want to go and pursue myself now. Yeah. And my sort of intrinsic, I always get roasted for using the word intrinsic and extrinsic on this postcard, intrinsic, fulfilling passion. Yeah. Despite that I'm going to have to take a financial cut potentially,

I might not, you know, and the risk, there's no guarantee here, right? This might not work out, might not get commissioned. Well, it's the same thing with radio. You know, I hosted radio for 10 years. I was at Radio One for a decade and I walked away. I left hosting the chart show, not because I was fired, but because I decided it wasn't right for me anymore because I stopped learning. And for me, it's always been about what are you learning? How much are you enjoying this? And does this align with where you are as a human being? Does this align with your passions? Does this align with what you care about? And you know, you touched on it yourself earlier in the conversation. When I recognized that I didn't want to talk to Harry Styles for 30 seconds about the new video, I wanted to ask how the hell are you managing all of this? You're

nine years old. Like, mate, how are you managing this? There are grown women that are hunting you down sexually and you're figuring out who the hell you are as a person. How are you managing bro? I wasn't allowed to have that conversation on Radio 1, but I was in my documentaries, you know? And, you know, every form has its limitations, which is why documentaries have grown into filmmaking because now I can actively write the conversation as opposed to sitting down with someone

hoping that they're going to give me the soundbite that makes that you know makes that uh exciting for the audience now i can write it and through some of my experiences in factual and life i'm able to create people and create characters that are flawed and interesting enough that trigger conversations in the way that i would hope to do in the approach to making a documentary whereas with a film drama specifically I'm able to literally lay it out and create it on my own terms and in in terms of yeah and so in terms of like fulfillment happiness mental well-being yeah how important is it to be your true self you know and you know again we talked about the LGBTQ community and how the

struggles they face and the suicide rates are higher because they they are forced in many instances to live a life that isn't true to who they actually are from your own experience i mean from mine i know that i mean when you're i mean you're doing it now you're making extraordinary work because it's connected to who reggie is yeah um you i'm guessing you're happy, right? You're fulfilled. And it all seems to be a really positively reinforcing cycle

when you get closer to that sense of who you are. You know what it is? It's looking at your diary and I'm sure you have a similar thing. You know, you look at your calendar for the day and you go, what am I actually doing today?

And we've all had those days where you see something in the calendar that you don't want to do. Seldom do I have those days. It's very rare that in the calendar that you don't want to do. Seldom do I have those days. It's very rare that I have something that I don't want to do. Professionally, particularly. And I'm really excited by that. And I'm proud of that.

You know, everything that I'm invested in professionally comes from a place of passion. So, for instance, I made, you know, talking about social media and all the rest of it, I made a drama for the BBC called Make Me Famous, which was a standalone one hour drama about the relationship between fame, social media and suicide. And, you know, I created a character

who was a reality TV star, who after being on a hit show, suddenly his star begins to fade. And there is a newer, younger, sexier version of him. Who's getting all the accolades and love and suddenly his rates going through the floor and what that does to him on a, on a mental health level. And the conversations and research that I was like embedded within, in the buildup write in the screenplay were incredibly eyeopening for me because I was talking to stars from reality TV past and present and hearing the difference between people who've been on reality TV 15 years ago. And today

it's heartbreaking, you know, and seeing the way that these kids understand fame and, and what they're searching for, you know, and also recognizing that i'm someone who's hosted reality tv you know and i have a really strange and unique relationship with it so my point is regardless of what it is i'm doing i care about it i care about it and that's anything from content to product i have a dairy-free ice cream you know i have it that sounds ridiculous but i have a dairy-free ice cream i'm a creative director and business partner on blue skies but this is a dairy free ice cream that is made in ghana it employs 3 000 plus people the people that work there all look like me and my family and they are being given an opportunity to not only have a career but be paid properly and it's on amazon fresh and it's in waitrose and people here

are enjoying it in the summer not thinking about it but what it's actually doing is incredible it's changed the community and this is something that i'm connected to so whatever it is i do now if it doesn't align with my purpose i don't want to be involved isn't it such a massive uh i reflect on this a lot and especially when i'm speaking to someone that has sort of immigrant parents that you know our parents central concern was survival yes and what a privilege it is that people like me and you can sit here and talk about meaning and fulfillment and pursuing a dairy-free ice cream from guys just it seems like you know i think immigrant children will and should hopefully understand the weight of that that response almost responsibility you know when when so close in your your your family tree there was people literally fighting for survival yeah

um i just think that's it but it is but the difficult thing about that is and this is a conversation i'm having a lot you know talk about people becoming fathers a lot of my friends are from a similar background you know black white black, white, indifferent, you know, whatever, children of immigrants or white working class. Now that they have worked hard and found a level of success and are now becoming the parents, the lives that their children have will be worlds apart from the struggle that they experienced. How do you navigate that relationship with your kid who for all intents and purposes is- Silver spoon. Is silver spoon. Because you've worked so hard,

you've now made it easier for your child. And are you going to be mad at that kid because things are easier? How do you raise that child with the same values? You know? I hope that's a rhetorical question. Well, I definitely don't have the answer because I'm single.

I'm not even a dad. So I don't have to have that conversation just single i'm not even a dad so i don't have to have that conversation just yet nice segue turning to me okay so you're single talk to me about that how are you just me waving a flag yeah find a partner is that what this is like tinder cast um amazing so so tell me is reggie yates hard to date? Absolutely. Why? For the same reason that you are. None of your business. It's the truth. It's the truth.

And I have a feeling everything I'm about to say, you will identify with. And that is the disclaimer. Everything I'm about to say will probably make me sound like a massive prat. So please don't judge. You're not like a lot of people. You're not like most of your friends

because of the life that you've chosen for yourself. And more importantly, the person that you've had to be to become the person that you are, which as a result means that your dating pool is small because if we're talking about someone beyond being attractive and needing to have the value system or the outlook or and this is the really difficult thing the understanding

that you require it suddenly becomes incredibly hard and uh one of the stumbling blocks i found is hoping that someone will become the person that i really feel that I need in terms of their understanding of me or expecting them to. And in doing the work and realizing the role that I play in that, I've been at different times, very responsible in that, those moments of conflict, should we say. Whereas today I'm just very clear about who I am and also what I need. And I think if you're very open and honest about that in the beginning, it makes it easier, but it doesn't make it easy. And the pool continues to shrink the more my world changes. Because a guy that was like a mentor for me always described me as a moving target.

He's like, Reg, we're moving targets, bro. Like, it's never going to be easy because you continue to learn, you continue to work on yourself and you continue to have that hunger to be better for yourself and for others. And it's incredibly difficult to find someone that is either on the same path

or has the empathy and understanding for you in the someone that is either on the same path or has the empathy and understanding for you in the path that you're on and the knock-on effects that that will have romantically so you said two things there that i really wanted to jump back to before we proceed um with this topic you said you've come to learn who you are and what you need yeah who are you and what do you need? I'm a fiercely creative person with a very young spirit who needs friendship and understanding and empathy. As a writer, you know, when you're building characters, one of my favorite things to do for my characters is write down what is the lie your character believes and I think for the longest time I believed that I would find a female me and I couldn't imagine anything worse today and also you know you have to understand the difference

between your character's wants and needs which is why I find writing so cathartic because I'm essentially doing therapy on me as I'm creating different versions of me at different points in my life and it's never going to be easy to be in a relationship with someone like myself or imagine you because we are moving targets I'm a hawk in the park um going back so what is it are you single yeah how's that walk going for you it's good okay so going back to what i need what does what does and i find this so fascinating because you've described it there like i've been on this journey over the last 10 years where what i thought i needed if you'd asked me 10 years ago i would have gone this hair color these eyes this waist size this fashion sense and as i've got older and

older it's just come down to these like fundamental i guess principles or values and now there's basically only three of them but i want to i really want to know where you are with what you just come down to these like fundamental i guess principles or values and now there's basically only three of them but i want to i really want to know where you are with what you think you need now i think it's very simple uh it's to be with someone that i can love unconditionally and that will love me back unconditionally that's the simplest version of it. And that is flaws and all. And I think it's also the desire to be understood and also the ability to understand. Because I feel like, Reggie, I feel like there's a lot of women out there that would love you unconditionally. And I still feel like that might not be enough. That's an interesting point. I don't know. I think... Because I've had

exes that loved me. I genuinely know. I'm thinking've had exes that loved me i genuinely know i'm thinking of one in particular loved me unconditionally but it wasn't enough okay so the point i was about to make and i think that this is something that might i don't know i'm interested to see if this speaks to you is the understanding part of it right i say understanding and it feels like quite a blanket term but what i mean by that is culture is such a huge thing for me you know like i'm walking around at the moment with this tiny little chain on but the pendants on it are which is a ghanaian symbol uh which means trust in god i've got a little africa symbol and i've also got my family crest right i don't even think about these things anymore.

But when I think about what I have on me, literally, my family is incredibly important to me. My relationship with my spirit is incredibly important to me and where I'm from are incredibly important to me. And there is a huge difference between empathy and understanding. And being in a relationship with someone that doesn't understand those three pendants and doesn't, well, if that doesn't understand those three pendants and doesn't well if they don't understand those three pendants they won't understand me so when i say understanding i speak to that and it's very easy to say that you can love someone

unconditionally but when you're someone like you or i who meets a thousand people a week some on the street some in situations like this, some through crew that you will never meet again. You long to come home, look at your partner and not need to say anything and for them to understand you. And that's why understanding is such a huge part of it. Professionally as well, right? Because you, because you, I mean, your work's going to take you all over the world and, you know, partner might think oh they might be trying to compete with your work they might be jealous of your work they might well does that mean he doesn't love me he's spending x amount of time away in a jail cell like what about me it's part of it yeah because

work is and isn't work um it's a part of who I am. You know, I go to the cinema twice a week. I've just put a movie theater in my home. And God forbid anybody tell me that I shouldn't be in there as much as I intend to be. Movies have got me where I am and have helped. I learned to shave watching Danny Glover teach his son how to shave on Lethal Weapon. Films are a huge part of my life and you gotta understand that you know uh you have to understand me professionally just as

much as you do emotionally spiritually and culturally do you think in relationships you're selfish I definitely was not so much now um I I learned I learned the hard way I've been in failed relationships and i've also even in my most recent relationship my desire to understand uh only went so far and i've you know done some more work on myself and ultimately didn't work out but i think i understand why and i definitely understand the role that i played in that last question on this particular one before you can just throw it back at me if you want it because i've just been like refusing to give my perspective here

because I really gain a lot from this kind of conversation. Yeah, sure. If you spoke to your former partners, what would be the one common theme as to why they think the relationship didn't work? I think my previous partners will say that I always operated with the best intentions but didn't

listen enough and listening is so important oh my god especially if you've got a lot to say and especially if you you've done work and you know stuff you think you know stuff um you can and I certainly did in my 20s fall into this belief that I knew enough and I didn't need to listen to you because you don't know as much as me. I mean, it's incredibly unhealthy and potentially quite toxic. So yeah, I think my biggest failure romantically has been to not listen. Interesting. What about you? I think, I think I've been very uncompromising and I'd say selfish.

I think I'm definitely probably in relationships other than my ex who's taught me a ton of really important lessons about myself and about patience and about just really realizing that. Cause I used to once upon a time when I was younger, I used to think it was all about finding, I've said this in the last podcast, but finding someone that was perfect.

So again, I was in search of like the female equivalent of me that was like super career orientated had the same beliefs as me so the world would give me but it was such a contradiction because i wanted them at my beck and call but then also wanted them to be busy and when you analyze what i was looking for of course it didn't exist yeah so the question in my mind moved from being, are they perfect? Are they worth it? And when it becomes, are they worth it? It's an immediate appreciation for their and your lack of imperfection. And also that there's going to be some really tough, difficult times

where it doesn't make sense to you. They're worrying about something irrational. They're upset about something that would never have upset you. But you have to, as you said earlier, you have to listen and said earlier you have to listen and you don't have to agree and in fact you don't have to tell them that you disagree yeah you just have to listen and hear them out and that's a skill that I've honed more recently in my

my last slash current relationship where even if I don't agree on everything I listen and I will hear them out and yeah i'm learning the lesson how much do you take who you are professionally into your romantic relationships it's a perfect question to follow up with um no no surprise that you do what you do because that's literally what i what i've what i always ask people which is in work context i've been taught or in order to succeed, I've had to be someone, a set of values, a way of speaking, a lack of compromise,

a clarity of vision. And it's worked out. And it works out. So I come home at night and I'm like, same clarity of vision. Same like that. No, mother.

There are emotions and somebody else's feelings. Yeah. I want, if she wants to go to the park and do a walk, I'm trying to, from my business perspective, trying to understand what the ROI on that is. I'm like, what? But that's not, I'm going to my steps. Yeah, like what the hell are we doing having a picnic?

Like I've got money, you know, so I've got money to make or something, but I've had to realise that I have to be two Steves to succeed or different Steves to succeed in different parts of my life in certain contexts. In a board room if i'm doing a deal with a one of the ceos of the biggest brands in the world who is smashing

his pen on the desk telling me i'm an idiot and i'm at war with him we're friends but this is how these some of these people do business i have to be a certain person right the person i have to be when my partner tells me something like do do you know, about their personal spiritual beliefs that I might not understand in the full context is completely different. It's not about being right or winning in that context. It's about listening, trying, seeking to understand and trying, if I can, to try and find the sort of mutual bridge

in which we both share values, even if the words we're using are different. Yeah. And I've been on that journey for the last i'd say two years because of this person i met who yeah who taught me those lessons it's empathy and understanding isn't it ultimately that's what it comes down to what about you on that on that question you asked me there about the person you are in work yeah and then the person you are well work has to be quite black and white in a lot of ways doesn't it you have to be very clear and clinical uh about what needs to get done to achieve the thing and that's just not

the case when you're dealing with a human being um if the thing is uh having a nice dinner and having a conversation where everybody feels heard um you can't be black and white about that uh there is a gray area that, uh, relationships, uh, romantic, platonic, professional, whatever that they, they can operate in that require wriggle room. And I think that at my worst, I've not allowed for wriggle room when it comes to somebody's outlook or perspective. Um, ultimately I am very happy that I am where I am. And I think I've ultimately made the right decisions in terms of my relationship choices and whoever I end up with hopefully will be the best version of themselves and I will be the best version of

myself and we'll figure it out. But what seems to keep coming up for me is what the foundations of any healthy relationship actually are. And the foundation for me that I'm in search of is friendship. I think if I want to not only spend time with you in the way that I would a friend, but also I'm kind to you in the way that I am to my friends in terms of allowances and allowing for being wrong and also figuring it out and also having a healthy conversation about something when you're on different sides of the argument bringing that into my romantic relationships has already started conversations in a way that feel healthier than anything i've ever experienced before how how did your parents how do you think

your parents relationship has impacted your ability to form relationships? Massively. Massively. Again, you know, we're talking about the journey of others, so I'll try and be as respectful as I can. But as an adult who is now a lot older than my parents were when they had me, I'm able to have a little clarity on their decision-making and understanding that their age probably played a big part in some of the decisions that they made. I'm sure it's the same for you. You know, you look at friends who get married in their early twenties or essentially find their life partner before they've had a life and you can have an opinion on it, but you're not

necessarily going to be right because there's no way of knowing. You can have an assumption as to where it's going to go and how it's going to play out because let's face it, who you are at 21 is infinitely different to who you are at 29, let alone 30 plus. Um, I just try my hardest to be as kind as I can to the decisions that my parents made and how that in turn affected me because I think culturally now we live in an era where we think more about our how our behavior affects others than ever before and you know the way in which my stepfather spoke to me at one point or the way in which they interacted in front of us as kids shouting whatever it was you know um i don't think it ever occurred to them the effect that that might have yeah that's not because they're bad people that's because

culturally that wasn't even in the conversation at that time so i hold no judgment towards uh parents from that generation um i've got no excuse though because you know when i'm a parent i know better i've had 10 years plus of therapy and also i exist in the self-help generation where we've read every book and we have conversations like this and i have conversations like this with my friends and i know for a fact that my dad and my stepfather wouldn't sit around with their group of predominantly black friends and have conversations about, you know, healthy relationships and mental health, etc. So this is the last time I'll mention them because I feel like I've said so much about them. But again, Richard and Emma, when I went to their house for the first time in Notting Hill and I walked in and saw this sign on the wall it broke my heart and excited me in a way that I've never been excited before and those two conflicting emotions stick with such a

visceral moment I had that no one in the room was aware of they've got a bunch of kids uh they have this lovely house where all their kids at the time lived at home and there was this neon sign on the wall that said everything is going to be okay With literally in lights on the wall in their house where their children were growing up And it grounded me to the spot when I saw it because I thought Subconsciously what is that doing to these children? That they are safe as a message in lights is something that they walk past every day to me that's what love looks like it's being able to tell someone you love them without having to say anything

based on the environment you've created based on who you are for them and them feeling safe. That to me was in one moment, a real sort of opener in terms of what I would be searching for and should be searching for. That feeling of safety from someone that doesn't need to be said. Is that in part because you didn't feel like you fully had that when you were growing up?

Definitely. I think it's partially because of what I grew up in and partially because of the relationships that I'd experienced up until that point, you know? It's funny because, you know, a lot of things can... We can sometimes play defence, but it turns out... Well, we think we're playing defence, but it turns out to be self-harm so we reject the chance of safety because we're not comfortable with it it's kind of like what i was describing when i was 14 and jasmine told me she loved me yeah i was playing self-defense but it was in fact self-harm you're trying to protect yourself yeah in doing what feels right

in the moment but ultimately you're killing something that could have been incredible. I think we've all been there. I certainly have, definitely. I'm just really thankful that I don't do it anymore. I remember sort of rejecting this idea of who my family was and how much of an impact that had on me. And then when I embraced it and I embraced the good and the bad, I was able to see so much of the good. know my father who i don't have a relationship with

is an incredible musician he's still part of a band to this day and you know i put on his album and i cry because it's like this man brings so much beauty and joy to strangers he wasn't able to give it to me but i'm objectively able to find that beauty in the art that he creates today you cry when you listen to your biological fathers particularly one song jesus christ which song uh it's called jojo song so we have the same name i'm um he's called reginald gates i'm reginald gates and um he's obviously garnet's because you're based on the day that he's born i'm quamna i'm tuesday and so everyone calls him jojo right so's Jojo's song. And it's a song where he's singing and playing the thumb piano.

And it's just, oh my God, it's beautiful. And to know that this man who for chunks of my teens, I really resented because I felt that he wasn't there for me, has this beauty in him, moves me to tears whenever I listen to him sing. And have you forgiven him? I forgave him a long time ago

because I think it was, like I said, the point when some of my friends started to become fathers, you realize that not everybody is going to get it right and not everybody's cut out for it. And I was just unfortunate to not have one of those world's greatest dad guys. I ended up getting a dad that just really wasn't ready to do it or grow up. And I can't be mad at him for his journey that brought him to being the man that he was when he became a father. And on that point, just to conclude that point of the relationships love point, do you think you're ready to be in that relationship that you said you think you need? Yeah, I think so. I think because I'm on my journey professionally and the worry of not getting there,

which could affect you romantically, doesn't exist anymore for me. That's a huge thing that is taken out of the equation of who I am romantically. I think because of the age that I am and the experiences that I've had, I'm very close to being who I will be for the foreseeable. Yes, I am a moving target,

but the target's moving a lot slower now. You know, the things that are changing in me aren't as big as they were in my teens into my twenties. So meeting someone today and being with them in five years, I don't envisage just being totally different people. It's so interesting. Sorry to, yeah, I love that point. And you talk about the moving target.

The way that I've come to learn, to sort of mentally understand it in my mind is like, you imagine two lines and they're from this point onwards, the lines start moving. And if they are 1%, if say the Reggie Yates line is just 1% to the right, you and the other line will move apart over time. And I think,

I love what you said there about like i think i'll be a similar person in five years time which means that like the degree of separation won't be it's less yeah so i think yeah that's a well the greater journey has been made up until this point and i mean that personally in terms of my development in knowing who i am the level of self-confidence i have, and also what I'm fighting for has suddenly been crystallized because as someone who has the ability to do lots of different things, I was running around trying to figure out who I was supposed to be. And at the same time, worrying about what I was leaving behind for so many years. Whereas now I've tried

loads of different things. I've had lots of different kinds of relationships i've traveled i've done all these different things that i know what i want for me and i also i feel fairly confident i wouldn't say i know but i feel fairly confident about what love looks like for me what success looks like for me and what fulfillment feels like for me which instantly makes picking a partner or being chosen a lot easier. In that stage where you're running around trying to figure out who you are. Yeah. For me, that was a very insecure stage in my life. I talked to you, I said, I thought I wanted Lamborghinis, right?

And it's funny because in that stage, when you're most insecure and you're most searching for answers, what I tend to see, especially on Instagram these days, is that is the stage where people arrive at the conclusion that they need a romantic partner to complete them right yeah and it's in fact what you've described is no mother like that's the stage where you need to do the self-work yeah and then people form these like oh well i had a huge gap so i filled it with a romantic solution yeah and you complete me is one of the most dangerous statements ever, right? Because you don't. And eventually we're both going to realize that I don't complete you and you don't complete me. You've got to be complete to meet someone who's complete, to begin something new together.

And it's that, um, the idea of, you know, your life, their life and the shared life, right. And being willing to recognize that they have to have a life separate from yours. And as you do, for you to build something together that's separate and different. And I'm excited about that because I feel as though my universe looks the way that I've always wanted it to. I love the friends that I have.

You know, they're like family to me. I love the home that I have. I love the relationships that I have with my mom. My're like family to me. I love the home that I have. I love the relationships that I have with my mom. My mother's like my mate now. It's really lovely. And all of that has been work that I've had to do on my own. So now I can come to the table as a healthy grownup and make healthy conversation and have healthy decision-making, you know?

Damn, society wants you to rush it though, doesn't it? It really does. You know? It really does. know it really does but i mean our parents generation all got married a lot younger than we didn't look at the divorce rates yeah i think being happy with who you are first is imperative to being able to recognize someone who is happy within themselves your work you're doing so much at the moment this is kind of where i wanted to to end this is you're doing so much across you know your books you know your podcast I think you've taken a little bit of

a break yeah yeah yeah I'm gonna get back to that but that's another conversation your documentaries your business what are you most excited about and what does the future look like what is the big professional I mean if there is one what's the big professional i don't know i don't mean milestones i mean the big professional feeling you know what i mean the big professional feeling is being creatively fulfilled in broad terms in more specific terms it's my business um we haven't actively launched yet but we are working and operating and that is five, seven. So I have a company called five seven, uh, which is, uh, people, products and content business, which has a core cause arm. We have passed the mic, which is a platform that we created for young creatives, which is growing and doing really beautiful things in terms of empowering diverse voices, right

the way through to content. We make everything from feature films like pirates or you know make me famous um uh right the way through to a product like blue skies so everything that we do at five seven has the fingerprints of my outlook on the world and this idea of understanding the power of platform like there are so many people that get to a point of notoriety and start selling slim tea. And there is no judgment on anybody that does that. But I, I judge you. Reggie doesn't, but I do judge you a little. I always go back to that mom in the street who stopped me and said, you're a role model for my kid and me hating it. And then finally coming around to realizing I have no choice in the mouth. If you have an opportunity to make movies, to sell products, to make TV shows,

to create a cause led initiative, why not make it good? Why not make it speak to what you care about? Why not make it something that can actively inspire other people to be better than you are and do more than you've ever done? So for me, empowering others is a huge part of my drive right now. And, um, working with young, talented people inspires me to be better. And as a result, I feel incredibly fulfilled. You know, I don't see myself as a mentor, but I've technically mentored three or four people and they're like my little brothers and sisters now that's how i see them they're my friends who come around for dinner football or whatever and you know guys and girls will call me and ask for advice on their relationship or on a decision that they have to make uh professionally and i love that i have that

relationship with people because i never had it growing up i had these bits of dad but i never had the big brother you know there was always a distance between me and the person that was helping guide me um shortening that distance for me uh in the lives of others is what success feels like so the big thing is being creatively fulfilled um financially free and ultimately understanding what it feels to love and be loved really and that's a journey that's what we hope for in your own view what is what is your potential um unlimited okay and i don't say that because i think i'm lebron james because i definitely can't dunk like lebron yeah but i do think that i don't think i know anything that i've wanted to do

like really wanted to do and i've really worked for i've achieved amen uh and because that has happened it can happen in any way shape or form my mother believes that she's quite a spiritual woman as most west african women are i are. I'm sure you've got your stories. But she believes that everybody's born with a gift, right? My mother believed that my gift is to see and to communicate. And she always said that to me since I was a kid. You know, you can see and you can communicate. And the communication thing has sort of panned out.

You know, essentially how I pay my bills, sharing ideas. And the see part of it is quite ambiguous in a lot of ways because what I've come to understand that to mean is that you know as a kid I used to dream quite vivid things and they would all come to pass to you know learning about self and doing some reading going to some seminars watching some stuff you understand things about manifestation all the rest of it and that dream thing has sort of changed into manifestation in a lot of ways and when things start to happen that you had in your head it teaches you that you can do anything yeah and that's how i feel right now i feel like i can do anything i had an idea at a funeral of all places

two years later it's a movie that is coming out in cinemas and i genuinely think that anything that i put my heart to and my mind to i can i can make happen i can make real if that's your world view and you but you believe that and you've seen it and you've got evidence for it in your life that when you think about something when you see it you can then create it is it frustrating when you speak to friends close friends other people who express their dreams to you that they don't have that too no it's not frustrating to me right up no but you can't you can't be like that and i'm very i'm very specific about words sometimes i try to be anyway i hate saying the word can't yeah i feel really strongly about this

you can't allow yourself to think that way because who they are is based on their journey yeah and they may beat that and get beyond that but you can't be mad at someone for where they are on their own trajectory yeah it's so it's like when i because i have the same world view where i've built those case personal case studies in my life that i could go from being in Moss Side, stealing Chicago Town pizzas, to believing and chasing that dream, failing along the way, messing up, failing, whatever, but being able to create the life that I was aiming for. And so when I see friends who express their dreams to me,

and I deeply believe that whatever, like we're not talking about going to Mars, right? We're talking about, I want to right we're talking about i want to be a whatever or i want to try i know they can do it every part of me knows it's possible because i've seen behind the curtain and and they have what it takes and to be fair when i started i had like my math issue my english and shit my parents weren't speaking to me we don't come from a family that had any money so i i know that the belief the self-belief alone the foundation of being born in such a privileged country yeah is is more than they need to go after that and I just have this fucking thing in me

where I'm like you know I'm like you can and it and it it you know I get I definitely I I get you and I hear you because I've definitely felt that before especially when it comes to young people that want you to help them or that uh want to mentor them. And you take a chance on someone and you give them all the information, you give them the blueprint, you give them all the tools and they still don't listen or they agree and they do the total opposite. Mate, it's like practice for parenting, isn't it it people that you love or are invested in aren't necessarily always going to do what you think they should do and you can't be mad at them for it because it's their journey and that is something that I'm incredibly thankful for that

the people that I've had around me have allowed me to not listen and make mistakes or go in another direction. Like I had a huge, huge desire to be a musician for a long time. And I was making music and I was offered a publishing deal and I was collaborating with everyone from, I mean, I won't even say the names, but you know, I made an album and I had a deal on the table. And I was adamant that this was what I was going to do. I was going to be the first person that could host Top of the Pops and perform on it.

Like that was, that was my thing. Right. And when my God rest his soul music lawyer at the time, Richard Antry, sat me down and said, okay, you see that Top of the Pops that you're hosting? You see that Radio One show that you got? You're going to have to leave all of that, bro, to do this. Cause you're going to tour, you're going to be in studio. We're going to send you here, there and there. The label will want you to record and blah, blah.

And I was like, I don't want to give all that up and it was like all right so are we going to sign this thing or not and I walked away from what would have been another career because ultimately it wasn't what I was supposed to do and I wasn't willing to give up the thing that I loved but I needed to spend three or four years of wasting the time of people that were producers and, and, and singer songwriters who'd come and collaborate with me. And people gave studios were giving me free time. Record labels were offering me contracts and they were rewriting them. All of this investment into me for me to say, now I'm just going to go back and do what I was doing before I met all of you lot sorry you know I've done it

I can't be mad at someone else who's doing a similar thing because there is that point in your life where you have to figure out through mistakes or through trial and error what you're ultimately supposed to do amen I'm glad you agree no I do because I would love you to challenge no I love but I that's why I do it because I know listen I know that I'm like so so many of my approaches in so many areas of my life is so imperfect but I love getting the perspective from someone else because everything you've said I completely agree with and of course you're of course you're right but I still contend with that feeling because there's this there's this like bias in me that i've had it's it's weakened over time but really wants people to um feel what i feel in my life and uh and that is a awful bias because it's projecting my own

values and world view and what i think happiness for everyone looks like onto them um so i i yeah you're not the only one you know a million percent have done that myself yeah and even in relationships right you absolutely absolutely if you do this you're gonna be like this which means you're gonna be just like me and you're gonna be great the most frustrating one is whenever you say to someone you say what do you want and they go this and you go okay here's how you get it and they go oh fuck you know and you're like well you said you wanted that this isn, that isn't even my worldview. You said you want to be a Costa Rican belly dancer.

Here is the course. And they're like, well. Well, the truth is uncomfortable, right? Yeah. And it's usually, it's usually harder than people want it to be. And that, unfortunately, in this conversation is both the case for someone like yourself

who sat on one side of the table saying, this is what you need to do. And on the other side of the table the person saying well I don't want to do all of that and what you both leave with is truth and that is that you can't control someone else and that is that you've really got to do the things that you aren't willing to do to get where you want you know amen listen Reggie uh you know the work you've done with your documentaries I just think is tremendous and I think I remember once upon a time listening to, I think it was Neil deGrasse Tyson say that the most important work we can do, or the most important people in our society aren't the people we elect into power, it's the electorate that elect them. And so therefore, the most

important powerful work one can do is educating the electorate. And what that really means for me is like the way that people think about whether it's sexuality or regimes in other countries, whatever it might be, is the way they think dictates who they then elect into power, which then impacts our laws and the society we live in. And that's the work you're doing. And I find that to be the most admirable, important work of it all. So thank you for doing that work. Thank you for being a role model. I mean, I've watched you as a young kid growing up in Plymouth you know for for many a decade and I you know you've been one of the faces that I even I could relate to on tv because you look like me um and so I want to thank you for that as well but also thank you for your time today because I think the conversation we've had has been very honest

diverse you've you know you've shared things which you didn't have to share and um I know that comes from a very selfless desire to impart value on people that might need it in various areas of their life so thank you that's incredibly kind thank you for having me it's a real pleasure thank you Thanks for watching!