The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett - Rio Ferdinand Reveals The Training Ground & Dressing Room Secrets That Made United Unbeatable.

Episode Date: April 12, 2021

This week’s podcast guest, is not like any I’ve had on before... I am proud to introduce to you my friend, and football legend Rio Ferdinand. As a former Football player, he is one of the most decorated English footballers of all time and regarded by many loyal fans – one of England’s greatest players. I grew up as a United Fan, watching him, idolising him and now he is my mate. Growing up on an Estate in Peckham, Rio’s parents encouraged his curiosity. Many of you, may not know, Rio danced ballet to a high standard before choosing to pursue a career in football... and well, you might think you know how the story goes. You don’t. In this open, intimate and honest conversation Rio talks about his achievements, failures, successes and how his life experiences have made him the father he is today. Rio has broken many football records during his premiership – He joined Manchester United in July 2002 for record breaking fee of £30 million. He has featured in the PFA Team of the Year four times in 5 years. More club magic spread, as the club followed with another Premier league Win in 2006-07 all under Sir Alex Fergusons lead. During Rio’s time at United, Rio respectfully won 6 Premier League Titles and 14 Trophies. Rio announced his retirements from professional football on 30 May 2015. After retirement Rio has joined BT Sport as a Pundit. The BBC one documentary - Rio Ferdinand: Being Mum and Dad. The documentary won the Robert Flaherty Award for Single Documentary at the 2018 BAFTA Awards. Rio is a special guy, not least for what he’s achieved but for who he is. Today, you’re going to find out who he actually is. The philosophy to life that he swears by, and the culture required for you to win in an ambitious career - but also the culture required to win in your personal life. Follow Rio: Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/rioferdy5 YouTube - www.youtube.com/@5magazine Twitter - https://twitter.com/rioferdy5 Follow me: https://beacons.ai/diaryofaceo

Quick one. Just wanted to say a big thank you to three people very quickly. First people I want to say thank you to is all of you that listen to the show. Never in my wildest dreams is all I can say. Never in my wildest dreams did I think I'd start a podcast in my kitchen and that it would expand all over the world as it has done. And we've now opened our first studio in America, thanks to my very helpful team led by Jack on the production side of things. So thank you to Jack and the team for building out the new American studio. And thirdly to to Amazon Music, who when they heard that we were expanding to the United States, and I'd be recording a lot more over in the States, they put a massive billboard in Times Square for the show. So thank you so much, Amazon Music. Thank you to our team. And

thank you to all of you that listened to this show. Let's continue. How did they create high standards at Old Trafford? Because I want to create high standards in my team and within my life. You must now know that there's certain fundamental things that matter and a lot of shit that doesn't. What are the things that matter? If people were in 10, 20 years, say that's Rio played for Man United, I haven't really done what I'm here to do. Do I even need to introduce my next guest Rio Ferdinand former football player one of the most decorated English footballers of all time and as a Man United fan probably one of my favorite

players of all time ever and he's played alongside some of the greatest players ever but he's also been managed by the best manager ever. I grew up as a Manchester United fan watching him, idolising him. And now he's my mate. So this is going to be a fairly interesting conversation. After retiring, he's become a sports commentator for BT Sport. He's become an author. He's become an entrepreneur.

He's the founder of a charity, a foundation. He's a non-executive director, which we'll talk about today as well. And as you'll hear, he's also so much more. Some things that you probably wouldn't expect. He's also a husband and a dad. One that's experienced tremendous, unthinkable tragedy. Tragedy, I pray, that most of us will never know. Rio is a special guy, not least for what he's achieved on the field, but for who he is. And today, you're, not least for what he's achieved on the field, but for who he is. And today, you're going to find out who he actually is, the philosophy to life that he swears by, and the culture required to win in an ambitious career, but also the culture required to win in

your personal life. Without further ado, I'm Stephen Bartlett, and this is the Diary of a CEO. I hope nobody's listening, but if you are, then please keep this to yourself. I'm trying to find the right words to ask this question because it's one that I haven't seen been asked in previous interviews of you, but what are the key things that happened when you were very very young that made you choose football as your future or enabled you to to take that path because a lot of kids grew up in London a lot of kids do a lot of things they have a lot of passions but for some reason as I read through your story football was this ballet as well but football was the the path that you chose to take above all other things yeah it's a good question

because when I was younger I was into everything I was running around on the estate I was doing gymnastics a couple of times a week I was doing ballet I was obviously playing football I was doing athletics

I was doing a drama class why were you doing all those things there? because I just was interested in it all I liked it I enjoyed it and my mum and dad were really, my mum especially, were really like,

if you like something, go and do it. Try it. They were always like that. Go and do it. What's the worst it can do is you don't enjoy it. I used to do karate sometimes as well.

And I got to a point, I think I was like 13 or 14 years old. And obviously my dad was having to come from East London. Obviously we live in South London. He'd drive to East, Northeast London, drive home, pick me up from school, take me to West London to play football, back to dropping friends off on the way.

It's hard graft. And in the end, I got to 13, 14 years old and my dad said, listen, you're doing a lot at the moment. You're going to burn yourself out. So let's just pick something that you really enjoy you want to do and just go for it and I was like it was like an easy conversation it was difficult enough I had to let down our fault and disappoint

Central School of Ballet where I was doing it which is a real like a top school in London in Farringdon and I made good friends there the other stuff, I wasn't too that concerned about it. But four years I was, three or four years I was at the Central School of Ballet. So I'd got good relationships there. Told them I couldn't do it. And then went full throttle and full steam ahead with football. And it was just,

it was the best decision I've ever seen made in my life in that sense. But I knew that that was my passion I liked the other stuff I enjoyed doing the other stuff there were good distractions from what was probably going on my estate as well probably my parents thought like that as well but football was the something that I got out every day from when I knocked on my friend's house borrow a ship or just go and play football etc so ballet interesting one a lot of people don't know that you did ballet and i but it sounds like you did at a pretty good level yeah i've done gymnastics gymnastics at the london olympic games and they obviously i didn't notice there were scouts there from from ballet schools or someone

was watching or a family friend was there and they said oh he looks like him i don't know how what i had or what i was my posture or something like that looks good to be a ballet dancer so i went there and i wasn't really one for saying no to stuff i was like i'll try it i'll try anything and they said and one of the reasons i was going to be able to get off my estate meet new people new girls maybe as a young kid and then it was in a different part of london traveling so i've done it it's funny i read i read a tweet the other day which was kind of linked to something you said there and it said on the way up say yes to everything when you get to the top start saying no to everything yeah yeah and it's

like yeah and it's like and i'm almost saying that as well when we the conversation we're having now about like the stuff you're up to now now yeah like what's what's the i always think this what's the worst really that can happen as long as it's not a health issue I might fail I might

I might not be good at it I might fail who cares it's like with the boxing I wanted to go trying to be from a professional footballer just trying to be

a professional boxer crazy yeah but what's the worst that can really happen I lose a fight my life goes on

that's it so but some people they can't allow their ego to be squashed maybe at a certain point or their pride and they're sitting there as this macho person they can't feel vulnerable at any point and when you try things there is an element of vulnerability that comes with that because you're opening yourself up you're leaving yourself a bit wide open for criticism for failure but I'm not scared of failure. I never have been.

I'm not fearful of it. And that's what I try and put in my kids. If you fail, what's, what, get up and go again. People like, they trap themselves in their career and their sense, their sort of self-identity because we were talking before we started chatting about like me trying to resist my labels and I've left social chain.

They think they are an ex. But from a very, very young age, and I'm kind of connecting the dots now through the rest of your life. And are an x but from a very very young age and i'm kind of connecting the dots now through the rest of your life and even now you worse you're a kid on the estate in peckham and that is an identity that's not one that's also conducive with ballet no is that is to such that the different ends of the spectrum yeah like you just wouldn't associate one with the other and again i i wasn't we were speaking just as you mentioned before before we came on here.

One of the things that my mum used to say to me is that don't let anyone tell you what you are. Don't be pigeonholed. I mean, you go and find out and explore and find out what you are. And you've got to have experiences to get to that point. It's not going to happen overnight. It's not going to happen in your childhood, not in your teens. When you get to become an adult, you'll start working your way and finding out who you are and what you are and i've always thought that so going to a ballet school

i could have been ridiculed my mates i was one of the boys on the estate but at the same time i was confident enough that oh you're going ballet laughing i don't care what and i know i'm good at football i know i'm good i'm fastest runner on the estate in my age group. I can keep up with older boys. What? Just because I go ballet, what? There's nothing wrong. Who are you? To answer that question,

you know, your mum's telling you to go out and find out who you are. Did you ever answer that question? Not really. I think that question, you don't really answer it in the end. I think you're always evolving. It's like, for instance,

something you said earlier, it pricked my ears about, you said more or less the same thing just in a different way probably a more eloquent way about not wanting to be pigeonholed and

like my aim in my life now like people think you've played football and you've done all these amazing things as a footballer I've done really well at football I acknowledge that but

slight understatement but I don't that's not enough for me like my next phase of my life I don't want to remember when someone sees enough for me like my next phase of my life I don't want to be remember when someone sees me my success in my next phase of life is when

someone sees me and says that's Rio do you know Rio and they mention something that I'm doing or I've done around that time not that's Rio as a footballer if people were in 10 20 years say that's

Rio played for Man United I ain't really kicked on I haven't really done what i'm i'm here to do to set and setting out to do which is to evolve and become something different and make something of myself somewhere else and i think my my family were a lot like that whether my mom that was successful or not they were always to us make something of yourself be something nothing there's no there's no barriers to that so that's the way I've always kind of thought about things what if it what if I said to you now how would you feel if I said you couldn't ever do anything else and that like the football thing was it and now just I'll just laugh I would

laugh it would make me laugh because I don't see no I don't see barriers yeah and I'm fortunate as well by the way I understand that I've got to a position where there are a lot of boundaries that have been kind of put down yeah yeah for me to skip over because of my career as a footballer yeah and you you're getting that now as someone who's been really successful in your field so you see that color and age etc get put to the side because always we acknowledge what you've done yeah yeah and so we do sometimes have a easy there's not as big a barrier to entry for certain things for us but then you still got to go in and produce you still got to go and prove yourself and so even things that i've gone on the board now for a company the gym group as a as a ned oh really yeah which is it's out of my comfort zone because i

like fitness but i don't understand the business behind that. And what goes into having a actual, having 125, 180 sites and managing that. And there's a property arm and there's a commercial arm and there's a market and, and that all coming together under one umbrella and having to manage all that and to be a part of those conversations.

Like that stuff is what excites, I am super interested in that type of stuff, in the workings behind the mechanics of all these type of businesses, in different industries. So that's like- Do you not feel out of your depth? Yeah, but I always find something where I can cling on to that,

that I just try and find something within a conversation that would allow me to gain confidence through talking in that conversation. Do you know i mean i might not understand everything and when the conversation's finished and the laptop's closed i'll i'll be somewhere looking and finding out i didn't understand that i'll call that person back or call someone on that on that call just to clear up a few things i haven't quite grasped but there'll be something within that conversation where i feel that i can

add some sort of value that i think all of that is a is a very again very synonymous as to why you're like even sat here today because a lot of people in that situation would a just fucking avoid it from the jump and then b if they encounter something they don't understand on the call they'll probably bounce then or they definitely wouldn't inquire because by inquiring you're actually making yourself vulnerable yeah yeah a lot of people don't want to avoid vulnerability, right? And being exposed. And it's so funny that the people that, from what I'm hearing from you,

like the people that achieve the most success are the ones that are at some point willing to look fucking stupid. Yeah, you got to. No one gets to where they're going to get on the cleanest without a bump on the road. Yeah. You don't get,

you have to have bumps in the road to be able to get there, to experience them vulnerable moments so that when you are there, you know what it's like. And then you can drag people up with you. Yeah, yeah. And you become stronger with more people.

That's how I always think. There's a lot of people when they get to the top and stay on the top of the mountain on their own and don't want to bring no one up. I don't agree with that. I'm always like, I want to share and help

because that is the foundations of me being stronger for a longer period of time and can sustain success. But it is, I don't know, it's an important thing for me as well, which again, I'm never scared to do, is to ask questions. It's the same thing with football.

You don't understand something what a manager's telling you or a coach is telling you. Don't go away and have a bit of a blurred idea of what it is because then you're going to be judged on that, not understanding and not executing.

It's going to repeat. Exactly. So you want good habits, but you've got to understand what it is before you can create the habit. So that's why I try and always ask questions.

If I'm wrong, if I feel I'm not sure or certain, I'll definitely ask questions. Isn't that crazy? You've achieved all the success, you're a a football legend and yet you're still voluntarily throwing yourself into really uncomfortable situations which you don't need to be in yeah in terms of finance anyway like you don't need to be it or in terms of like a status you don't need to be there and it's funny because there's loads of people that

aren't haven't achieved that that are that will never throw themselves into uncertainty but it's it's but again this is probably why they're the ones that stay where they are yeah exactly that's probably why you sat here yeah they don't grow they don't yeah and like and all those people who will stay there some of them are like oh i just want to stay here but a lot of them they're scared to open up because of that vulnerability and then feeling silly if they're told oh you got it wrong but it's not uh i'm not like that everyone's on this earth for different reasons and some people happy just to be like stay in a situation they're in and be very happy just going along that that road and no spikes or drops uh i'd rather have a drop at some point but to get i know that spike's going to come

somewhere through being able to do the things we're talking about in your in your group chat with your friends from uh from your estate I heard there's a group chat um you've been doing the research I didn't need to research your career because I was there watching but just you know it was I was intrigued by when you said you've got this group chat with your your friends from back home and stuff and one of the topics of conversation is something that I talk about a lot in this podcast which is there's a growing culture of like softness dare I say it and like avoiding discomfort and also there's this crazy thing on Instagram at the moment which is like demonizing hard work as if it's like because of the mental health revolution we've had and everyone's which is

a great thing and everyone's aware of the impact you know of this thing called mental health there's now this other thing which is like well you can overwork and you can burn yourself out and hard work if i advise it as an entrepreneur even though i've never met someone or had anyone sit in this seat who didn't work hard then i'm somewhat toxic because i'm telling people that success and hard work. Yeah. Yeah. And it's like,

you're, you're, you're looking down on people. Yeah. Almost like, and I don't, I listen, I don't agree with none of that.

I've got to be honest, work hard, man. That should be just an absolute normal ask of any person. And I always keep talking about my kids because they're a big part of my life, but that's all I talk about my kids. When they talk to me about school, football,

washing up, your chores, that's what's been one of the great things that we've had a lot of negativity about the COVID situation in this country, staying at home, et cetera, homeschooling.

But one of the great things to come out of it for us as a family, these kids know their chores and they're doing them properly. And that's why I say, do your chores right because them habits there will lead on to other things in your life going forward your football stuff you won't take shortcuts you're taking shortcuts over your work shortcuts with

your football shortcuts making your bed shortcuts with your schoolwork homework etc it will all be the same you need high standards everywhere but are you scared that because they've grown up in a different circumstance to what you had? I always have this conversation. Go on, that's true. You know what I'm going to say?

Yeah, I'm trying to instill that in them. How do you do that when they're living in like a really nice house and they've got... That is, that is,

the guy who comes up with this, the answers for that is the main man. Because it's so difficult. I was doing a podcast yesterday with um eddie hearn oh yeah and he's like the generation my children are so his father was well off successful and he was where my children are now and he was saying like one of the things that he was he was scared of being that rich kid. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? And so he'd done everything not to go out and work and to go and have a hard, hard,

hard working mentality and to be a success himself. Our friend Umar was the same. Umar. Exactly. So Umar's, all three of them, by the way, I like that.

All three of the Come On Honey kids. Do you know what I mean? They're exactly the same in terms of they've gone out to, they never had to work. Their parents would spoil them and they've all knuckled down and said yeah we've been given

an opportunity now you've got to go and execute and they've gone and executed beyond belief and I see Mahmood who's

of Boohoo who's the father of Omar and the guys and that's what I say to him man you must be so happy, man. What do you mean? Your kids, man, what they're doing, how hard they work, created these wicked businesses, but you gave them an opportunity.

But what they've done with that, you can't be disappointed. He said, no, man. He said, for me to sit here and just see them, what they're doing, what they're doing, that's where I want to be, man. And it doesn't matter how much money you make or how big of a business. My success as a parent

is that my kids get up every day, they got a work ethic and they do stuff to the best of their ability. If they do that, whatever job they're in, they do that, then I think you've laid the foundations

for a good life for your kids. Whether it's in, you know, you talk there about having high standards being one of the really important things for your kids. This is something that clearly, you know, was demonstrated when you got to Old Trafford and you joined Manchester United for that record transfer. But how did they create high standards at Old Trafford versus the other clubs you'd played at?

You know, West Ham and Leeds, etc. What was it they were doing that kept those standards so high you then also talk about going to QPR and seeing low standards and certain type of negativity in the changing room but what was it that they were doing or not doing because I want to create high standards in my team and within my life so good habits right every day good habits Whether it's punctuality, again, work ethic,

attention to detail, intensity, when you're training on a training pitch, respecting each other. All those things just, they come together and it creates a culture at the club. And I've been at West Ham,

I've been at Leeds, two very good clubs great clubs but they they didn't have that that culture which meant there was ability to win

but it starts from somewhere so Alex Ferguson already won at Aberdeen so he knew how to create that culture he went to Man United didn't have that winning mentality at the time when he went there he created that and it all stems i always think great leadership is definitely what gives you an opportunity to be successful and i i noticed that throughout my career and

when you've you've set the foundations and you've created that culture you don't as a as a leader have to be there every day in that sense he was at the training ground every day how many times do you think he came into our changing room no idea you wouldn't feel one hand really

no never came in the changing room in the training ground we're there every day because he knew that the culture was set and then he had lieutenants like me

Giggsie Gary Neville etc who were then filtering that down to any of the younger players on new signs who didn't know the culture yet. And then those players became the culture leaders.

And so it was crazy, man. And even, for instance, if he wasn't at a training ground watching training, the training intensity might drop that little 1%, 2%, but you'd notice it because the manager's not there. Because he wasn't in the building. Because you didn't feel him, that aura. He could be on his phone making bets, which you normally would be,

not interested in training, but his presence alone was enough. And when you look back and you think leadership is just key, and we were talking about investing earlier, investing in the leader. The people, yeah. The people. It's so important, I think. I think every industry is like that. Football's where I'm The people. It's so important, I think. And I think every industry

is like that. Football's where I'm from and that's what it's like there. But I see since I've retired, that's replicated in other industries, 100%. Isn't it funny as well

with culture? Because what you said there is basically like something I used to think at Social Chain, which is if a culture's strong enough, new people become

like the culture. If this culture's weak, the culture becomes like the new people. 100%. Do you know 100 percent you know you couldn't have put it any better and i'll give you an example like and i again i didn't i didn't say it as eloquently as that when i was playing football but berbatov came to may united oh yeah casual burs he was wicked player beautiful touch sexy looking footballer wicked and before big champions league

I think it was Barcelona he just weren't working hard enough for the team and I need I had the ball on this side of the pitch

and I needed him to come over and help he's just walking and I ended up just kicking the ball off and going crazy what are you doing get over

wait when I get over then we'll do it and going crazy. What are you doing? Get over. What's wrong? Wait, when I get over, then we'll do it. And that's again, that's not our culture. At Barcelona, they play, they wait. That's their culture. That's not our culture.

You want to play Barcelona, wait, go Barcelona. Here, it's not the same. And if you don't buy into our culture, you won't be here long. And that's the way it was at United. If you came and you weren't in the, you didn't buy into the culture

and immerse yourself in it and become part of the fabric of the place you weren't there more than a year or two or you definitely wasn't an integral member of that squad

and so it was definitely like you say the culture is just you have to become part of that culture that you go into if it's strong enough you see this in business

it's crazy you should do I feel like the perspective you've got from being in that changing room and understand because this it's the same principles in business it was the same at social chain and when we grew the company and i realized that i had to be like did you drive that 100 and my like it got to the point where what you've described is people would understand who we were without us having to say and you'd have your disciples basically introducing new people to the company and going that's not a social chain thing to do and we get that all the time you'd say you people in the

office okay and for example and the crazy the other point i was going to say is when the culture is that strong you it's so easy to see when someone doesn't fit or they don't stand out we had you know someone start on their first day at social chain and they're doing their initiation and then they at the end of the initiation they did two middle fingers and then walk back to their they don't stand out. We had, you know, someone start on their first day at Social Chain and they're doing their initiation. And then they, at the end of the initiation, they did two middle fingers and then walked back to their desk. I said, go get him.

We fired him. He's gone. First day at Social Chain. And then the second instance where, and it sends a message to the team because they, I never knew, it was instinctive to me.

I said, that's not Social Chain person, get him out. There was another instance where we had a girl join who someone had hired. And they told me that she used to like bully people at her last place and she had like a really bad attitude and stuff and actually one of the guys two of the guys in our team said oh yeah we used to work with her

and she was a bit of a bully so uh i i remember having the conversation and i said you can't like i in a very very nice way i said she she can't be here tomorrow because that's not who we are here and my team were like but we need her for this client. We need her for this project. I was uncompromising. I said, no, we're not having her here. I don't care if we lose the job. I used to say to my team,

I can't have my name attached to a culture where we have people in it who are like that. So she's gone today. We'll figure it out. If we lose the client, whatever. And it wasn't until years later that you hear the team come back to you and they say that moment

where you weren't willing to let that person we needed in the team because they weren't right for the culture. The team said that to me and it's exactly what I hear from you. I'm not blowing smoke up my own ass because I didn't realise at the time. But you recognised that.

It wasn't intentional. It was I just wanted to enjoy my life in the company to be a really, really clear certain way and I felt that that's what we needed to do to succeed. And in hindsight, and as you say it to me, I'm like, oh yeah, it was being unnegotiable, right? Yeah, and that's what Sir Alex Ferguson was great at.

If he saw something that was going to be detrimental to the culture of the club, it was out. That was a non-negotiable. Even if you needed them. So you look at Roy Keane. Yeah, yeah. He was the captain, was the leader. The rules have been broken, you're gone. David Beckham, peak of Keane. Yeah, yeah. He was the captain. He was the leader. The rules have been broken.

You're gone. David Beckham, peak of his powers. Yeah. Going out of a Spice Girl. Bringing all sorts of eyeballs to the football club. Making it an international play. See you later.

Yap Stam, the best centre-half in the world at the time. Said something about some of the players in a book or something. Goodbye. Ruud van Isteroy,

the best number nine in the world at the time, goodbye. Like, if you don't fit the culture and you don't adhere to the rules that are there, goodnight. And we'll move on and we'll build around other people.

It's crazy. It's like, and at the time you sit there and you think, Bex, you can't sell Bex, man. Jesus, who's going to come in? it's like, number seven, time you sit there and you think, Bex, you can't sell Bex, man. Jesus, who's going to come in? Like, it's like,

number seven, sells all the shirts. Like everyone loves him. Everywhere we go, Bex is like a Beatles. Like crazy. Same with Rudvan István. You're thinking,

how are we going to score goals now, man? Who's going to score us the goals? Rooney and Ronaldo are really young, still inexperienced. But he had that belief and that vision just to like, it was the culture over everything.

No one's bigger than the club. Yeah, no one's bigger than the club. It's so true, man. And again, like you say, that reverberates around the dressing room. Right, you better stay in line. You better just like, live by the rules that are here already

and stay part of that culture. The hard work, the intensity, the respect and so he would dig out the most experienced player who hasn't even done anything and you'd sit there and go

what are you what are you shouting at me for but he was doing that to you because he knew you could take it but the effect that it would have on the young ones

or the other ones do you know what I mean so playing the mind games man I love it it's good but the mad thing is when you're love it it's good but you only the mad thing is

when you're in it like you're saying you're talking about social change you probably didn't realise at the time but when you sit back and you're outside and you look back in that bubble

you think shit man yeah that's why I didn't think about it but that's why I'd done it yeah it was right

and I'm right now or I'm wrong whatever it is do you know what I mean that's how we think about like certain things that fergie done you think actually he weren't just lucky man he actually obviously was plotting and planning that type of stuff i am i wonder how much of that stuff was intentional with him though in terms of like he i'm sure he wasn't going in the back room and

planning it it's just like surely it's just like who he was. And I sometimes think, you know, you get managers that will come into clubs and they'll try and be like Fergie, but you can't because you can't act for that long and that consistently, because from what you're saying about Fergie, it's like, it's not like four things he's doing. It's a thousand things he's doing consistently,

which show his values. Right. And you can't act for 27 years, whatever it is across a thousand touch points. So it makes me feel like, how do you teach that? It felt almost like it was just instinctive to Fergie. Yeah, I think it was instinctive. That's just him.

And don't forget his experience as well would have played a big part in that. He was at the club for like 26 or so years, 27 years. So there's a valuable amount of experience gained in that time. But I always look at it like, when I went into the main night change room, I sat there and just looked around and thought, who's good at what? And let me just take elements of these people and add it to my game and my preparation and my recovery. And that's what I've done.

Ryan Giggs was great at recovery and preparation, done yoga and stuff like that. Took that out of his of his book roy keen leadership the way he demanded standards on a daily basis skulls his best levels in training every day like all them things i was just trying to trying to be like little parts of different people and then that allows hopefully for you to grow into a better person a better player etc and i think that's the same with with other industries and business since i've retired it's like you go in and try and be like someone else you're gonna fail because you can't be like the original but if you're taking bits from elsewhere you might be able to

get beyond that what you see as the best because you're getting more you're taking more good things from that person but then from various other people to build maybe past that and that's the way i'll try and work with stuff now in my life there's no one person gonna make that's gonna make me the best at what I want to be but a group and taking from everywhere I've got a better chance people never talk about the things that Fergie was bad at well Roy Keane does but other than that I never hear people saying and I've got his book somewhere knocking around as well but you never hear players talking about some of the things where you think, do you know what?

I actually think he would have been more successful if he didn't do that thing. Do you know, it's weird. When people die or when people retire, you only remember the good stuff, really. Interesting. You only think about what they were, their existence before becomes magnified

and they're built up even bigger sometimes and fergie i think that's with him as well because you just don't you don't think i can think of instances or tactics he got wrong that's easy to find but but he'd always make stuff right it was weird like um even for instance the anti-racism stuff and the situation I saw a documentary my brother brother done

yeah yeah yeah so he won a couple of awards actually yesterday I saw it in your story as well yeah so he the situation happened with him and John Terry

and I decided not to wear the the next well during that period once a year all the teams are given t-shirts, show racism the red card

or kick racism out one of the campaigns. I wasn't willing to wear it because I didn't believe that they supported enough during that time. So I said, I'm not wearing it. He went crazy.

Find me. I was like, we ended up winning the game, which was okay, which was lucky. But the next day, I went into his office to just try and explain to him why I hadn't won the T-shirt. And to be fair, he said, you know what, I understand.

And I'm sorry for the way I reacted. But stuff like that, he might make a mistake or he'd done that wrong, but he'd always rectify it. He'd always come back round, he'd get you back round somehow. And because he was just like a, I don't know come back round, he'd get you back round somehow. And because he was just like a, I don't know, he just, he knew how to deal with people. He knew how to treat people

to get the best out of them for what his main goal was. How'd you teach that? I don't know, man. That's just, I think that's something that's inside. Being able to deal with people, read people, treat your team. Do you know what I mean? So that they're running through brick walls for you.

Because he'd come in a room and he'd say to you, you're not playing. And you'd want to scream and your blood would be boiling. But he'd leave the room and you go into the changing room and you're sitting in there gearing everyone up.

Come on, boys. Not sulking. Because he's told you Tuesday you're playing because I need you for that game. You've missed one this is a big game but you're going to play on tuesday like normally you miss a game you you want to go home and cry about it do you know i mean but he's managed to build you back up and that's my management and in any industry that's that's like a massive part of again culture, but maintaining and sustaining a successful company or a successful football club.

You need to be able to build people, pick them up, knock them down sometimes, but be able to keep them on that track with you. The contradiction I hear within the story you recount of Sir Alex versus the one I see in the newspapers is you hear about kicking the football boot at Beckham and this guy who in the sidelines looks like he's out of control but what you're describing

is like super self-aware yeah calculated and he's actually pretending to be out of control when he needs to be we used to talk about it all the time

especially me and Emmanuel Vidic and Vidic's a deep guy loves talking about deep stuff gets deep into stuff yeah he loves it I thought he was just

a murderer no no he just loves like the beyond behind how was he thinking about that murderer no no he just loves like the beyond behind how was he thinking about that etc we always talk about the manager and like

you look back and it's like everything he'd done was like calculated like the way he spoke on the TV blaming the ref

so like very rarely did he come on he didn't come on TV and ever hammer none of the players individually we could lose a game and the referee would be the back page

the next day but he's taking the heat off us he's making us think about it's not us we're not down in the doldrums

it's because of the referee that's dangerous sometimes you've got to there's got to be self-accountability but he makes there's enough self-accountability

in the building but also the focus is over there now not on us as a team so we go again without that pressure oh they've lost they're not as good

anymore but the referee was the reason do you know what I mean just like that's just like calculated this is what I'm doing for the goodness

of my team and the betterment of my team is good man but people think anger and like you were a player that wasn't afraid to shout at someone

I heard you talking about some of the players you were a player that wasn't afraid to shout at someone. I heard you talking about some of the players you gave a hard time, like Anderson, et cetera. What is... Still. In the chat room, in the WhatsApp group. Yeah, really? Yeah.

What role does anger play in leadership then? Because you see it in football, but if I were to start screaming at people in the same way that you did to, I don't know, Berber or whatever, imagine if I just fucking kicked this table and said to the team, what the fuck, the camera's not working i would be i'd be cancelled everyone would walk out yeah i talk about this with my missus quite a lot now we'd like

some of the stuff that we are when we're talking about memories and whatnot and how we spoke to santa or what's happening in the change room would never happen in the office because it's like you say it's like that that relationship's over. It's gone too far. Whereas you could have a fight at football and then you're shaking hands and having a laugh in the shower after. It's so different. It's just a different way of working.

But I think it's understanding people. I don't think you treat any two people the same in that sense. Like the blanket treatment, I don't think is the best way to treat a team because everyone's different. Everyone takes advice differently. Everyone takes criticism differently.

So you've got to be able to pick the right people to be able to shout out, to pick the right people. You've got to get an arm round. And that's about, as again, a manager, a captain,

knowing that team, knowing the players individually. All this coming into work and ghosting everybody is mad. I don't get it. I don't think you can create that environment for success if you're going to come in and not know nobody. And another one of Sir Alex's great traits

is that he knew everything about everyone. Like if you're... My granddad was in hospital once. Met my granddad probably twice in the players lounge after a game. Knew my granddad's favourite drink, brandy. A flower was turned up at my mum's house. Do you know what I mean? It's like that stuff there,

then people are coming to work for you every day after stuff like that. It's little things, little details, not any time out of your diary really. His PA's probably done it all. But his name's at the bottom. It's like, little

percentages like that are just a key. It's funny because those little gestures help you know that he does care about you. Regardless of what happens on the training ground or in the match, fundamentally he cares about you and wants you to do well. You're not enemies, you are. I think by him setting that

as the foundation it's clear that having that as a foundation allows him to put pressure on in the right places it seems yeah

and you're not his mate yeah well really no you're not his mate I speak to him more now than I did when I played really because there was that line

and that he felt was always needed to be there that we can have a little laugh here and there, but in the end of the day, I'm the manager. You guys do your thing there and have a laugh, et cetera, but then there's that line you don't go past. But he just got it right,

and I think that's down to experience as well. He would have learned that. And a lot of the guys used to say he was even crazier before you guys came, when he was younger. So he's obviously worked. And he worked out as well. The new generation of player couldn't take that anger

and that craziness like the old generation. Like probably my generation, probably the last generation that you could do that with. The next ones, the younger ones, the Andersons, the Narnies, the Renardos, etc., that's not the way that they... They don't respond as well to that type of criticism and anger and aggressiveness.

What was the angriest you ever saw him? Too many times. Too many times. The times when he kicked the boot at Bex's head was a... And you were in there? Crazy one, yeah. That was crazy. What happened?

What was the angriest you ever saw him? Too many times. There were too many times. The times when he kicked the boot at Bex's head was a... And you were in there? Crazy one, yeah. That was crazy. What happened?

It was... It was mad. It was funny, man. It was actually funny. I've got to be honest. Crazy one, yeah. That was crazy. What happened? It was mad. It was funny, man. It was actually funny, I've got to be honest. I can't lie. But the manager, he kicked the boot in anger because he asked Bex to do something tactically that he didn't carry out. And he booted.

And listen, anybody, I don't care. Ronaldo playing today on Messi wouldn't have hit the target the way he hit the target. It was so clean and the ball went in slow-mo like bang and it hit him in the head

and then obviously Becks got was upset got up and I just remember the gaffer was devastated you could tell you could see

when he looked at him he sat down he was just slumped almost like that's not what he'd done he kicked the boot for he kicked it in anger and it accidentally hit

Becks in the head so he looked devastated with it but that was one it was I'd had a few scrapes of him

in terms of I didn't agree with things that he'd done a couple of times and I was screaming and he didn't he didn't take too well to it and he lost it and he just would go

purple over the top of you and just spray you screaming in front of you like that like crazy so but he was what it was it was never personal

which is that why you respected it and you kind of it kind of it kind of always was washed away because he

you knew that deep down he just wants you to do well do you know what I mean it wasn't vindictive it wasn't personal just do what I'm telling you to do and you will win

I heard you say that that culture isn't there now it's all friendly now isn't it everyone's mates everyone's like for instance everyone's

mates and commenting on each other's posts on social media so you're more attached to someone you're more

involved with someone. Whereas before, I would only see certain players twice a year, home and away. So I've got no attachment to you. So to me, have a bit of venom or to go at you a little bit was normal. And I've got no qualms about doing that because I ain't going to see you again. Don't care.

I might see you at England camp or something like that, but that's like three or four times a year. So we're colleagues. Exactly. We're not really matey. Whereas now in the tunnel, they're all shaking, cuddling.

Yeah, man, comment on your post the other day. It's very different. I'm not saying it's bad, but it's just different. Is it bad? So I don't know. It's just like,

it's different. So going into battle, into a game, I've got no emotional ties or no social media ties to anybody so i can there seemed to be that bit more it i don't know if there's more passion before to now but it seemed to be like there was yeah because and i think all of this stuff with social media makes it a bit more fluffy and people are hugging and shaking hands and whatnot now because they've spoken or had a message or liked a post. Very different. I remember last week there was a tweet went out from one of the United press people and it was just a quote

of something Harry Maguire had said on the field and he'd basically screamed I don't know Rash or someone else and he'd said like get fucking back in line or whatever

it's like trending on Twitter yeah yeah because you don't see it because you don't see it anymore and then also you know love him love him or whatever

but watching Oli fist bump the managers with a smile on his face we've been grown up as United fans with a set we would

Fergie would look fucking furious to even have to look at the opposing manager and and it just feels different now and then we look at

where we are and how we're performing in the big games and we're not winning like we used to and we're all saying oh that you know we're coming like

Arsenal or something everyone always like clings on to the history and the past that's the problem as a football fan I'm the same like you just want it to be

like it was before please but it's never going to be the same it may be a successful or even more successful one day but it will never be the same so our expectation then

will sometimes just have to change a little bit but yeah I mean, again, it was coming in anyway because like, for instance,

I remember Gerard Pique hugging and fist pumping, et cetera, in the tunnel with Fabregas. And we were mad rivals with Arsenal at that point in that pizza gate and all that stuff.

And he got hammered after that Pique in our changing room. What are you doing? Before a game, you're sitting there chatting or make fun of him a little

bit there's two different ways you ridicule and get someone in line either humour or being firm

and he probably got both but it was that was you could sense a change coming it was coming and obviously

social media I think has accelerated that definitely Ed Woodward as well there's a lot of controversy surrounding him at the moment

again because for better or for worse have you had him on? no not yet no it'll be good yeah when we can travel a little bit more

we'll let I think he'll come on but I remember hearing the story about the exit treatment that you had with him and I wondered if you were still somewhat

bitter about that I heard you know one of your last games at the club and he comes into the training room and tells you that you're not going to last games at the club and he comes into the training room and tells you that you're not going to be playing for the club anymore.

You didn't get your send off. Yeah, of course. I think there's nothing that anyone could tell me that wouldn't make me feel that was the wrong way. Would Fergie have done that? No. In Fergie Zero? No.

He would have told me before the end of the season because he didn't know what it meant. But the difference is that Fergie was a footballer and he knows what it means. He knows what it is to be able to say thank you for your support, et cetera. Just have that little runway to ascend off. Now listen, I understand not everybody can have it that way,

but if you've got, if you know, and you've got the opportunity to give someone the best possible route out of a situation, you give it to them. And my situation, I think it was, you could see down the line from a month, two months before that, that you knew what was going to happen with me.

So give me the opportunity to have the best possible send-off given the time, given the relationship that I'd built with the club. So that was my only discrepancy of the whole way it worked out because it wasn't like, oh, actually, a knee-jerk situation decision so but i think listen ed knows how i feel about it but we've moved on past that i speak to him on the phone about various different things anyway we meet up sometimes that's cool but those small moments that's an isolated incident but that's that isolated incident is

attached to a wider philosophy in the same way that fergie had this like wider philosophy of like you know sending your your granddad the flowers and that's attached to a wider philosophy so although that's just one instance i think the risk that i would see and when i hear things like that is i think well that same philosophy of like not really caring being that empathetic it's got to be popping up in other places right like oh 100 and that again we've said culture about 10 times already in this conversation yeah but that's that's a part of a culture like there has to be like you say compassion empathy respect as a family right like that's what the club was And that was the way I used to explain Man United.

I left Leeds, which was like a family. I used to say this is a smaller version without obviously the success, but a smaller version in terms of the people here been here for 30 years, 40 years, 20 years.

My dad used to work here. My mum used to work here. It's a family club. Man United was that when I was there. My fear is that it becomes something else. Some of the waiting staff, I had a box at Man United. And when I was there my fear is that it becomes something else some of the waiting staff I had a box at Man United and it's funny

this is a staggering thing for me because you don't think the waiting staff in the box are gonna notice a cultural shift at the club right but they would tell me they said to me you know when Fergie and David Gill were here

it was different I'm like how did it touch the waiting staff that served me because they said to me you know when fergie and david gill were here it was different i'm like how did it touch the waiting staff that served me because they know all their names yes that's what they said to me they know all their names they it's like they had a relationship david gill had a relationship with the person giving me a steak and it and i just thought that was staggering that this you know anything how strong the culture must be and how important it must be for the waiter giving me you know some chips to be like it's different now the dinner lady at the training ground actually spoke to on the way here funny that's just me a voice note but the dinner lady carol she could have

banter with the manager or david gill like first name terms banter that had been spread over a number of years so they could go back and have a proper back and forth he knew the name of the groundsman but it was like and and if if i if i'm at man united now that is part where i'm going that that has to be recreated bring that back because that's a strength like i said before about strength in numbers that's the foundation of the football club people come in that place and think oh my god they're all Man United here they all feel part of it that creates

does that start with Fergie and David at the top? yeah I think it has to and that's why I look back on things like that and like you speak to any of the people that work there

that was a big part of it because everyone thinks it's the first 11 the team the squad the first team that play that's everyone thinks it's the it's the it's the first 11 the team the squad the first team that play that's man united it's not it's the fans and it's all the people that work behind the scenes to enable that first 11 that team that squad to go out there and perform if them people

out around that aren't working that's what the managers say all these people the kit man the physio nutritionist the dinner lady etc these lot help you enable you to be successful so don't forget that do you know i mean and all those people have an expectation of the performance and like the they all become winners like as a united fan growing up i was like we win yeah 100 and and you know as a fan i was like yeah no we we come and we win and then at some point when fergie left I'm like I'm not so sure really what happens sometimes

and you know that crazy thing Fergie had in the last couple of minutes of every game where he thought we're going to fucking win this there's only two minutes left but somehow

but you know like all the things I just mentioned there about the club as well that does that is a byproduct of success as well that becomes easier it's like a self-fulfilling cycle

yeah exactly when you're winning it's like everything when you're successful and you're winning everything's kind of when you're successful and you're winning everything's kind of run smoothly doesn't it yeah

and then obviously when things start to go a little bit wrong you see so many more bumps in the road so many more splinter groups come out

and start pointing the finger etc so I just think that it's keeping it getting that culture right and getting the people

who feel part of the club and then you win with that as well. There's no better kind of... And you've got to defend it, right? You've got to defend the culture again because the culture is the thing

that made you win. Yeah. And so you might get some, you know, big people getting too big for their boots or whatever or distracted.

And then Fergie's just got this great reputation of defending that culture as the most important thing. And people say, why did he win? How did he win for 20 odd years? No one else has managed to do that in the modern era. And it's just that.

But I always put it down to as well, things like dedication, desire. He was always the first in a training round. I used to try and beat him to get in a training round sometimes, take my kids to school and get there. We used to start at like half nine, used to be in at half nine. I used to get in sometimes him to get in the training ground sometimes take my kids to school and get there like we used to start at like half nine used to be in at half nine I used to get in

at eight o'clock and his car's there already last to leave most of the time that's again that goes back to the point I said about

showing your kids rather than telling them be early be it just be there then they know he's always there can't be late why are they know. He's always there. Can't be late.

Why are you late? The manager's there. He's been 26 years and he's early every day and you're not. He's obviously prepping. You don't do your prep work in the gym, why?

I remember Joaquin called a meeting because he thought the young players weren't doing the extras. Why are you going home before an experienced player there

is that what you said to them yeah when you're you're the start of the ladder what's we called an actual meeting yeah so that

he just said to the lads listen go like after training or coming or before training or come in a changing room and everyone sat

down and he's like listen I've got to say it because I'm seeing it every day and it ain't good for the club some of you young boys I'm seeing you and some even it ain't good for the club. Some of you young boys, I'm seeing you. And some are even the players

that are a little bit older than that. But how can you be going home before him? He's doing extras, working outside. Or he goes in the gym. Or before training, I see Santo doing that and you're just messing about in the canteen or something like that. It's valuable time.

Don't miss it. Short career. Things like that. But that's, again, the manager allowing people to manage a changing room. And't miss it. Short career. Things like that. But that's, again, the manager allowing people to manage a changing room. And that's how it was there. You had people that managed a changing room and you had the manager

that oversaw it all. What was the difference between some players that arrive at Manchester United and ultimately end up reaching their potential and then some that don't? And there's been a lot of,

you know, well written about players that never reach their potential. Was there a commonality that you saw that made it because i'm like gary neville i'm like he wasn't the most i like the guy you know he's actually managed me once in this charity game like the guy but he didn't strike me as the most naturally talented player work but he thought yeah and then you've got dedication, attention to detail, application on a daily basis.

This is the thing. A lot of people think, I've worked hard for two weeks and I haven't got any rewards out of it. The manager's still not playing me. I'll give up. No. That's got to be, we were talking before, a lifestyle. Hard work every day is a lifestyle.

That should be the standard. That's the standard that is here. And you've got to be at that every day. There's none of this taking your foot off the pedal because it's difficult. Carlos Queiroz said to me, you can't just switch it on and off. Like that mentality, that intensity,

the dedication, the hard work on a daily, but you can't just go, I'll work hard on Monday to Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, I'll just chill. And then Saturday, switch it on again. Habits, lifestyle, all the time like just chill. And then Saturday, switch it on again. Habits, lifestyle, all the time like that.

So when it comes to match time, it's not a big shift because your body can't deal with that. Your mind can't deal with that. If it's normalized, this is normal on a Saturday, three o'clock, 60,000 people screaming,

a hundred million people around the world. That's not pressure. I do this every day. One of the like alienating things when people might hear you talk and they think, oh, well, almost intimidating. It's like, well rio's mentality is just so

fucking like disciplined and you know he's got it now and then i did listen i weren't perfect this is what i was gonna ask is like tell me about tell me how you weren't perfect yeah i weren't perfect it took me a long time to start understanding like your body understanding your mindset and my state of mind had to be at tip top condition both mentally and physically on a game day and

at West Ham I didn't have it Leeds I didn't have it because I was inconsistent I was really I trained hard but then I'd be going out every other night

I'd go out four or five times a week parties pissed like West Ham I don't remember a lot of results or certain things when people say what about that game when you i actually can't remember i was that i used to go out and get pissed so often and then i got to main united and i just was

surrounded by people that had won and i was desperate to win so what do you do to win i'm going to copy off him him him like him, like we spoke about before. And then you become part of that. And then you realize that none of these lot are going out all the time. So if I'm going to go out and continue that lifestyle I had before, my levels are obviously always going to be a bit below these guys because you can't sustain that.

You're always working from a lower standpoint. So I changed that. And listen, I still made mistakes, but my intentions and my desire was to always be as good as I could be. I wanted to be better than Vida, Vidic, John Terry, Sol Campbell. I need to be the best. When people talk about the best centre-back, I need to be the first name on their lips.

So what can I do I was that obsessed with it do you know what I mean and why the lads wouldn't have probably

known how obsessed I was with it because I would never show that really but inside the thought that someone thought

that someone else is a better centre back than me used to like it would eat away at me why

because I just pride ego we all got egos you want to be the best and I was never ashamed like it would eat away at me why? because I just pride, ego we all got egos you want to be the best and I was never ashamed of myself to feel like that I'll say that

I didn't say it at the time because it etiquette it's not the thing to do in American sports they do it they talk like that which I wish there was more

because naturally I'm that type of person I would say it I think I'm the best so I don't care I would say now I thought I was the best centre back but I was always

I just wanted to be the best whether I was or not it's for other people to decide but I was that was always my intention You and Vidic partnership a lot of my friends at the moment

I swear I've been I'm a big fan of Harry Maguire and what he does mainly because from what I hear, he's one of the only leaders in the back line, like, you know, always shouting. What was it that made you and Vidic

so successful as a partnership? Because my friends, they'd do anything to have you guys back. What was it about you two? Because you're known as, in my opinion, the best centre-back partnership we've ever had. That's why I'm here, because I knew you'd say that.

I appreciate that, man. No, I don't know man he had attributes that just complemented mine and vice versa he wanted to go and attack every ball when the ball got kicked in the skies

he just saw one thing and that was the ball and he was better at that than me okay but I read stuff and would clean up around all of that and was more of I don't know I

read the game probably a little bit different to him and but at the same time I was capable of going up and winning the ball and then he'd do that with me whether he was as good at me

at cleaning up or not for other people to decide but like I don't know it was just we just compliment each other and and what it was there was a pride about our defending us too so you see a lot of people it's like me i'm the best i want to be the best which is true but the overriding factor of me wanting to be the best is that we don't concede and we're a partnership. I'm going to be, I've got your back. And that's what he used to say before a game. Fede, you go up, I'm behind you, don't worry. When I go up, you're behind me, yeah?

That's what it was all the time. You challenge, I'm behind you, don't worry. Just go for the ball, go for the man, take the man and the ball. I'm here if it goes wrong. And it's that having that sense of security for each other. There was a chant, a Vidic's chant, about him being a bit of a murderer.

Yeah, yeah, crazy. How did he feel about that? He's quite an unassuming guy. He's really like, he's not really taken by anything. Right. They say that about me? Oh, cool.

It's good. Not bad. Not bad. And then carries on with life. He's really just chilled, man. He's so different to what he's like on the pitch. He's just a chill guy. He's an intense guy

to be fair intense and some players may have found him at times quite moody at times and just really

in with what he's doing because he's so intense and he would really like to think about a lot of stuff and probably overthink certain situations but

I got on really well with him he's one of my closest guys at Man United when I was there. You still talk to him now? Yeah, I talk to him now on the text and stuff. He's living in Milan at the moment. Oh, really?

Yeah. One of the things that has happened since your playing days is there's been a huge rise in the conversation around mental health. It wasn't a conversation back then, really. Even for me growing up, I didn't know what it meant. I'll be completely honest. I thought mental was um someone goes crazy psychiatrist yeah yeah just in a straitjacket or something that's why we always thought it was that's all the depiction of

someone that's lost their mind and um we've come to learn about it in a much different way now we view it as a sort of intrinsic part of health but everyone has mental health and it it can sit on some kind of spectrum right based on what happens um i was wondering back then like the players in that dressing room they had mental health then they had mental health issues and stuff then but i'm guessing it was never addressed it was never talked about or i've done a documentary on bbc about that grief and bereavement and stuff and obviously mental health is a huge part of that and I got to understand mental health through that journey of making a documentary and understanding that when I played again mental health was not a thing at all and it was never

considered there was no compassion and if you acknowledged your mental health and started to talk about it as, I have problems or an issue, it was then seen as a weak link. Whether it was spoke about or not, it was there. That would be the case. That would be how you would see that whole situation. And so no one then talks about it

through fear of being called the weak link. And I look back now and think, yeah, definitely, if we would have been more open, if we had had today's thought process about mental health, we would have got more out of certain players, definitely.

Really? Yeah, because Louis Saha, for instance, what a player. Yeah. Unbelievable footballer. Had injuries, but along with the injuries that brought a mental health problem for him and like a bit depressed and down and whatnot because he

felt he's letting everyone down that's what you feel when you're injured you feel you're letting your teammates down and it's hard to deal with sometimes especially if you just keep getting little injuries and you come back you go again you, you come back and people start, oh, he's always injured. Mentally, he's not strong, is he? Don't fancy it. And as a player, you know them conversations are going on. So you start thinking about that.

And when people see you, you think he's doubtful anyway. And so that mental warfare that goes on, it could be sorted out through conversation. Acknowledging certain things, but you're taught in a macho dressing room that talking is seen as a weakness back then i think there's big changes now like you say the narrative now is very different so you'd like to think it's changing and clubs are more aware of that i am i remember watching that documentary remember i think i remember where i was when i watched it

because it really really hit me and like there's i don't watch a lot of tv but also i'm uh it's quite hard for to make something impact me but because you were so vulnerable as someone that i you know grew up watching as a kid and you were able to to be emotional it it yeah it really it hits it hits you in a completely different way tell me about your thought process why you wanted to do that because i'm betting it wasn't easy right no it was it was it was crazy it was hard man but it was it was mainly for my kids if i'm honest and for everyone else because i wanted my obviously my kids lost they lost their their mom so again it's like most to that same point you can't just keep telling them sometimes it'd be nice to have something you can just show them and that speaks for itself

and is visual as well and so they get a clear idea of where we're all at where we was at and how we've got to this point of hopefully a little bit of healing and on that journey we realized actually we're going to help a lot of people here so many more than just selfishly our own family so it became like a real real positive journey for us in that sense of of working out what it means to talk to communicate your feelings how much benefit that is to you as an individual, but also other people, working on relationships and how it can change your relationship when you are talking. And so again, it was a difficult journey because you've got to open up, like you say, show that vulnerable side to you. And again, that's probably again how we started

the conversation. I wasn't scared to do that it was a difficult situation but I wasn't scared of doing that because I knew at the end of the day my kids are going to benefit from this and whatever that

however this journey goes I'm willing to to be a part of it for that one reason and then when it was finished and we won a BAFTA

in the end with it and the great part of it is that you walk down the street or you go down the island Sainsbury's or Tesco or wherever it is

and an old aged lady or a man come up to you you know what sort of the tear in the eye or something like that and the throat's all croaky

and I watched your program I've never spoken before, really. You helped me. That stuff, that's the reward that you get from something like that, that I didn't anticipate. And one of the things you said when I was hearing you talk about mental health, and really, I guess, the crux of the documentary

is that the healing comes from opening up and communicating. And in fact, you might never get over what what happened and you don't necessarily need to but it's like when you take it out from the the closet in the back you know back part of your mind because you were talking about compartmentalizing it a lot and that was how you were you were handling it at first and you know i think a lot of the data shows that when you try and compartmentalise grief or trauma but it comes at you in other ways right and it jumps out and you get bad habits you fall into

holes that you never knew were ever possible to go down and then to get back out of them it becomes like almost an impossible journey so it was and that's how I probably would have been with a lot of stuff

in my life before you just compartmentalise it you put it over there you don't think about it but you've never dealt with it you've never got that situation out

and unpacked it and then used it to bring some sort of positivity to your life people don't want to open it though no because it's scary yeah

vulnerable and today I'd rather just get through today than unpack that stuff yeah and feel have to go through that stuff i have to go through them feelings them emotions have to have that hurt a little bit again but i've we said it to the kids all the time like like sometimes crying is such a a relief sometimes and the weight off that goes off your shoulder sometimes when you you do release that emotion is like, it's crazy.

You can't really put it into words what it feels like at times that you've had that, them moments where you felt really down or you're missing someone and then you have a little bit of emotional time on your own or with friends or with family, whatever it is.

And then there's a smile immediately comes sometimes out of the back of it because you feel actually I actually feel better now and you move on you carry on with your day but it is

it's a that type of situation that we've kind of been through it's never gone but you learn how to deal with things that bit better all the time

What are some of the sort of techniques you use to try when you do feel down or you feel like you know there's something bugging playing on your mind and stuff and you might be getting a bit anxious about something is there anything that you've learned from your experiences that helps you um in those moments like outside of talking what strategies or is there one of the things that i was um i've started doing this is something i sound really strange is

when i so what will happen with me is something will be playing on my mind and I try and tell myself, oh, you can deal with that, you're fine, whatever. And then three hours later in the shower

and you're still thinking about it and I know that it's going to harm me if I don't like address it. So I will literally, this sounds like fucking bonkers, first time I've ever said this, I'll literally say it out loud

and I have this like weird conversation with myself where I say, Steve, like you're feeling, I'll just go literally, you're feeling like this because of this and this. And yeah, it's making you feel a bit like,

you know, it's making you feel a bit bad at the moment or whatever. But, but then I try and reason with myself as if I'm talking to someone else and it has really helped me. It's, but it makes me feel like a nutter. Yeah.

I understand a hundred percent what you're saying, but you know, unfortunately I've got an unbelievable wife who I can talk to. Like communication is a massive part of where I've improved in my life, 100%. So that conversation you're having there, I'll have with my wife.

And I'm lucky. How has she helped you with that? Oh, massively. I don't probably tell her enough, but like what she's brought to my life in terms of being able to open up, to communicate, not only with her, but with my kids now. I speak to my kids in a different way now

in terms of, because I know, communicating and letting them show their feelings, trying to just always, if there's a situation that's, for instance, Mother's Day has just come. Obviously, in my house, it's quite, my mum passed away and the babies's their mom passed away as well so mother's day is and then kate's a new mom so there's so many dynamics in the house on that one day the emotional kind of energy in the house on that day is like through the roof and so to manage that and to make it a day where everybody's enjoying it and happy

and celebrating mother's day is that's a task in itself but talking to the kids we had a conversation on mother's day at the table was eating food and stuff and it was like um my little boy was like, I said to him, you don't post anything on Mother's Day, do you? And he's not an emotional poster anyway. He just posts about what he likes, like football and stuff and whatever.

So he's like, yeah, I was actually thinking of doing it this Mother's Day, but obviously because I wasn't sure what to do with Kate and mum. So I didn't know what to do. And it was like, Kate almost like, I think she started crying really. Because I don't sure what to what to do like with Kate and mum so I didn't know what to do and it was like Kate almost like I think she started crying really because like I don't want you to feel like that post what you feel don't worry about no one else just post what you feel because no one can tell you what you feel and you're not going to disappoint anybody

do what you feel do you know what I mean and it's like those conversations I would never have had with my kids before because I just wasn wasn't, I wasn't in that, in that, in that zone. I was always very like, again, compartmentalized, very closed,

closed, but emotionally zero coming out really. Like, but that was conditioned because my dad was like that. Oh, right. So, and we talk about that in the doc as well.

Like my dad was very, very, he wasn't open with his feelings really. And old school, and old school very old school west indian man so that follows through generations so so yeah talking is and communicating with with the kids and kate and she's the one who's really brought that since i've met her in that sense and i i'd never be able to thank her enough for that. Just that one element, let alone the other stuff that she's brought to the table.

You just, you don't, you don't talk to her and you think you might not talk to her enough though. I don't tell her enough. Maybe how, how, um, I tell everyone else,

like all my mates know that she's been unbelievable for us. She's like, Oh, you don't tell her. I probably don't tell her enough sometimes. Right. And that we sometimes have conversations and she, I'll go,

yeah, but I told her so late. He was And we sometimes have conversations and I'll go, yeah, but I told her, so like, you was like, you done it, and she went, oh, you told them before me. Yeah.

Like, which is crazy really, isn't it? You should really just tell that person. Why don't you? I don't know. It's the old me, still about.

Really? Probably, yeah. Yeah. Probably the old me is still about, I don't know, and sometimes a bit like shy, not shy, but embarrassed maybe. I don't know. sometimes a bit like shy not shy I'd be embarrassed maybe

I don't know to say that yeah but it's yeah I should I will I will I'll send you the clip you can just let the clip

in she'll see this on it and she'll go why didn't you just tell me like yeah yeah it's true that's incredible

as a guy that's single me and has struggled for various reasons I'm thinking am I sorry yeah no not you so yeah as a guy that's single me and has struggled for various reasons I was thinking am I sorry no not you sorry

as a guy that's single and has struggled over the years to get into a relationship because I've been busy well this is what the bullshit I tell myself what is commitment issues

is it well well my parents so there's a slight issue from my childhood where like my mum and dad used to scream at each other all the time

so I just learned that relationships were like prison because my dad would sit there passively my mum screaming in his face and I would I just learned that as a man prison because my dad would sit there passively, my mom screaming in his face. And I would, I just learned that as a man, when you get in a relationship, you're in prison and your freedom's gone. And I'm, so I'm someone that like

really doesn't want to give up my freedom. And whenever I get close to that commitment, I feel the fear, which comes, clearly comes from my childhood. But what, what are the things that you, you know, as a guy that is super successful over the last you know couple of decades and now is running businesses and chasing a bunch of other ambitions that you have what are some of the things

you've learned about how to have a successful relationship as a busy guy one of them is communication I guess but yeah communication

but I think time management is massive as well really and yeah time management like and Kate's helped with that as well like managing

your diary like I'm busy I've got a lot of stuff on and out that I enjoy and I'm one of them passionate about which is key but I'm as passionate if not more about my family as well so managing that diary to make sure you've got quality time and you've got enough time with your family but also you know you're going to work is so key but also the time when you're there be there okay do you mean like i speak to a lot of guys who are managers a lot of my friends are managers now and that's why i'll never go into management i don't think because as a football manager you have to be you have to live it breathe it every minute like that's the same in business but there's i don't know with football i just find there's a different it's quite different we're talking about the way that people talk to each other at football

it's different to an office there's elements that are probably different as manager I feel but as a football manager you're at home you're having Sunday dinner with your family but you're not there you're thinking about logistics you're thinking about the nutritionist

has he sorted things out with the players that player is he going to be fit this week or not I need him fit logistics, you're thinking about the nutritionist, has he sorted things out with the players? That player, is he going to be fit this week or not? I need him fit. That player just got injured at the weekend, I can't believe it. I was thinking about how am I going to replace him? What formation am I going to play? The other team have got a formation. They play different at the weekend. I need to watch that video, I need to watch that for that 90 minutes. They played two games last week different, I've got to watch them games as well. That's without thinking about like doing your team talk and doing your tactics on the training pitch and setting up your training

sessions for the week without thinking about any and and so when you're at home you're not home you're not there really you're you're physically there but mentally you're not there you might not be there so i never i never wanted to get in that position especially given what we've been through so um i definitely i just kind of wrote that off as being something I'll do because of that reason. And we were talking again, before we start recording about your real deep desire to make sure that football isn't a thing

that you become known for, right? And I find that fascinating, but like it's a big mountain to climb, right? Like to get known for some of the things you're doing now, you're heavily involved in business, you're investing, you've got five. What are these, we talked about focus as well at the start of your journey,

deciding that it wasn't going to be gymnastics, it wasn't going to be ballet, it was going to be football. What is it now? So that's what I mean. That situation, that scenario is almost replicating itself now. I'm in that space right now. So when my dad said to me,

Ryo, what do you want to do? Make a choice. I've retired and the last four or five years, I've been working out what I'm going to do. I'm trying this, I'm trying that. I'm not scared to try this, I'm not scared to try that. If it doesn't work, it doesn't work. But then I know that's not for me.

And I'm kind of getting to a place now where i'm starting to drill down and focus on a couple of different spheres what are those to go down so the the five youtube channel yeah and creating that football hub that football place to be um my foundation um which goes into communities and gets kids that from disadvantaged backgrounds, gives them the opportunity to get an education and then the opportunity to get into work, um, through the relationships with a few of the commercial companies that I've built relationships with over the years. Um,

what else? There's the management company, football management company. So we've got managers and players past and present that we manage probably about 85 95 players

which is that's one of my passions and I get to mentor players within that which is the best bit for me where so for instance England player

Michael Keane Ben Godfrey Mason Holgate the Murphy twins even Chris Wilder I speak to as well. But I get to mentor these players who I can have some sort of effect

given the experience that I've gained over the years. So to have played that little role in a lot of these guys, and I do that with the Premier League players and Nationals to players that are from lower leagues or just starting on the journey who haven't made it yet. We were 17, 18 years old. So I get great kicks out of stuff like that as well do you know which path you're gonna take i don't know i'd love

to be able to do all yeah but i know it's not possible to be super successful spreading yourself in like that so i will eventually go this is me it's funny because when i when i speak to you and i've spoken to you i've seen all my punditry stuff of course yeah yeah which is interesting yeah when i speak to you when i spoke to you last time when we met a couple out i don't know a year or two ago standing in the sea for about 35 about an hour i think i think we're talking remember you remember that in dubai standing oh that yeah yeah i was talking about the other time where like i came i came to like where roughly where you live you came to social chain one time yeah yeah i came to where you lived and then I forgot

the Dubai time yeah but every single time when I speak you look at me in a certain way and I can see it you're like

listening very and then you start asking questions around certain things and you're very very very very curious and I've noticed this I feel it

when I start talking you look at me like this Umar does the same thing yeah yeah because you're you're another you do a lot of stuff you're doing this

you've got a book coming out you're investing you've sold it you've been a part of a company that was valued at 200 plus million pounds like you're doing so much stuff

there's a theatre show you're doing or whatever you mentioned before so there's so much stuff that you're doing you're spinning plates I find that exciting how the fuck are you doing that

i want to know i don't want to know like sometimes it's nothing about what you're doing for me it's how you're doing it i mean like even the podcast i'm i'm just like all the little things like that i love it so i don't know i'm i'll just i've got a curious mind in that sense, definitely. When I was young, I was curious to find out what nightclubs looked like inside. I mean, that's all I wanted to do was find out I wanted to get in nightclubs.

That's what I've done when I was at West Ham. So I mean, you're a young player, just coming up in the Premier League, getting invited to everything. I was curious. I mean, but that's for the wrong reasons. You've lived this crazy life, right? You've lived a life that me as a young kid

growing up in Devon and Plymouth, I was watching my little tiny little one foot TV with my brothers, my three brothers sat there. You know, that was the life that I wanted to lead. And you've gone through that journey. You've now come out the other end and you're doing all this other crazy stuff. As you look back on the span of your career,

you must now know that there's certain fundamental things that matter and a lot of shit that doesn't what are the things that matter you must now know that there's certain fundamental things that matter and a lot of shit that doesn't what are the things that matter because i'm a little bit earlier on so i'm still figuring out some of these things i'm like oh look oh, look, money. This is interesting. You know, like... Health, man.

Really? Health is the biggest thing. Because when you're healthy, you're so happy. We spoke about it before. Like, confidence, it breeds how happy you are. It energizes you. But if you're not healthy it can be devastating so health is a massive thing which i probably i didn't consider for many years probably till we

hit that bad patch in our lives um i took it for granted i mean the pandemic now has been another and the pandemic is an absolute like if you wasn't awake then you are woken now to health and what does that mean for you in terms of staying healthy now The pandemic is an absolute, like, if you wasn't awake then, you are woken now to health. What does that mean for you in terms of staying healthy now? Well, we spoke about it before in terms of, like, what does health mean to you? It's passing it on to the next generation of kids, my own kids first and foremost, but then, like,

kids to understand that going to the gym and just, like, in and out, little fads here and there, health kicks here and foremost, but then like to kids to understand that going to the gym and just like in and out, it will fads here and there health kicks here and there isn't at me. Yeah. You're talking about me. It's not a lifestyle. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Like, and we've got friends that we both know who are like that as well. And you've been like that before. It's just, it's not, yeah, it's not the way it's not healthy for starters but up here it just leaves you you're always chasing something whereas when you get consistency with your lifestyle and health

your healthy lifestyle there's like almost like a an exile like oh actually i get it now and it becomes it's not it's not a drain on your life It becomes something that adds value to your life in the end. And I think that's something to try and transfer that over to this next generation of kids is, I think, a key way. And this pandemic is something that I think can accelerate that, and it will accelerate that. Because, like I said, I'm on the board at the gym group now, and trying to get people to understand

and get back into coming into gyms is a massive push it's a massive it's a key part and how do you do that because it's not only the importance of a spreadsheet it's actually you're doing something that's going to help people now and prevent illnesses from being healthy a lot of the time and help their mental health which people yeah yeah that's what i'm saying people think it's just physical yeah it's not like i'll go in the gym and that hour is unbelievable three four times a week because you're on your own or with a partner or pt whatever it is and some of your best ideas or best flushing of things is there all my ideas do you know i mean it's like because you're having that time alone and you're getting to sit and not think about anything else but your reps or

whatever it is and then actually bang, bang, something hits you. Shit. That's kind of, for later, that's one. I'll go back to that. It's unbelievable. It unlocks so much. It does, yeah. It's my time.

I said, so now every day at 9pm, every single day without fail, I go to the gym. And regardless of how busy I am here, which is always too busy, every day the team say, they know that at a certain time I get up and I go to the gym. And regardless of how busy I am here, which is always too busy, every day the team say they know that at a certain time I get up and I go to the gym every single day without fail. And you see it as, okay, well, I'm trying to get muscles.

It's like, no, that's where I think of ideas. So health. And I'm really happy that you said that because I've had that revelation in the last year. And I think making health cool, thank you, making health cool again would help more parts of society than we realise. Especially guys that are looking

for a sense of purpose in their life, you know? Yeah, definitely. I think that, again, the pandemic as well may be creating a lot more health conscious people.

And it's just the ways in which they're going to work out now is going to be key. And even my kids are the same. Like, I say to them, I don't want to have to come home and tell you to work out. You should want to be key and even my kids are the same like i was i say to him i don't want to have to come home and tell you to work out you should want to work out just do it and then i'm sometimes i'm like you're driving somewhere and all of a sudden one of the boys or my little girl

they're running somewhere nice and that's like for me that's a success that's that's that's what i want to see do you mean because i'm not forcing them to do it if they're doing it off their own back now this could be like their lifestyle for them to do it. If they're doing it off their own back now, this could be like their lifestyle for the rest of their life, that they're healthy, living healthy, understand what it means. And my two boys want to be footballers as well.

So it's important for them to be physically active. As a dad that was a football legend, what do you do to help a son that wants to be a football player get there? Pray. I'll pray every night and just say please man let my kids be players like every other parent um i'd give everything for them to play football and be like top players seriously man but if they don't this is what i always say to them but there ain't pressure if you don't make it i don't care it's life i would

love you to be if you don't make it it's don't care. It's life. I would love you to be, but if you don't make it, it's fine. You do something else. One, unfortunately, is a centre-back like me at the moment. Why unfortunately? Because then he'll be judged

against me more. If he played a different position, like my other goalkeeper, my other one's a goalkeeper. Ah, okay. So no one's going to say, oh, he's not as good as Rio because he's a goalkeeper.

You know what I mean? So, but yeah, but they're both, they're both playing now. They're both a club, so they're happy. The biggest thing, they're both a club so they're happy the biggest thing

they're enjoying it which is great so it's a basic answer but it's so true do you know what I mean they're doing something that they enjoy that they want to get up

out of bed every day for and that's all you want and it goes back to the same thing when you're there you better be working don't want this like if a manager

comes to me and they're doing the appraisal of your performances the last two months I do it every quarter they come back and tell me that you don't want this. Like if a manager comes to me and they're doing the appraisal of your performances the last two months, I do it every quarter. They come back and tell me that you don't work hard enough.

You ain't going. Because it's embarrassing for yourself to hear that. But do you, is there anything that you can do? Can you like call someone and be like, give my kid a chance?

Because that's how always I thought it was. Yeah, but every footballer's kids would have been players then. That's true. Do you know what I mean? It's like saying that your child is going to be able to build a 200 million pound company because you have. Yeah, that every footballer's kids would have been players then. That's true. Do you know what I mean? It's like saying that your child is going to be able to build a 200 million pound company because you have.

Yeah, that's true. I mean, it just doesn't happen because there's so many variables that can affect that. I guess all you can do is just try and give them some lessons. Yeah, definitely some advice. But it's like when you become a parent, it'll be the same. Your kids don't want to hear it from you. You're their dad.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. They don't want to hear all this from you. You're their dad. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. They don't want to hear all this from you. You're their dad. They'd rather hear it from the Sunday league coach who's got no qualifications and listen to him. And I'm sitting there looking at my son like, do you realise what I have done? What I did?

Why you're here? And you're not listening to me. You're not taking my advice. You used to kill me, right? Really? But then I realised it's more about just giving them

the tools from a mental perspective to how to think and live like a professional do they know who you are they do it's weird

my son said this to me the other day he said dad until I got FIFA I didn't really know how good you was you know I said what do you mean he says like

because you're a legend on FIFA the game so now I know obviously I see your stats, they're sick, they're sick. How old is he?

He's 14 now. But like, it took him, he probably said, only like about until two years ago when he started playing FIFA that he realised,

oh dad, you're like, yeah. Before that, it was looking at me like I was just any man, like any guy. Like,

and I say to them like, yeah, and one of my sons used to go, yeah, but dad, you really know that though, seriously. I used to go yeah but dad you really know that though seriously i just go what's this guy saying what are you talking about i meet you but he was like but

that's how they were because they were just oblivious to it and a lot of players i've spoke to and i'll ask them did your kid know that you were like a top player not really they don't really yeah you must want to sit them down and show them some tapes. Yeah. But then you don't sit there and do that. It's almost like they've got to go and find it. And that's what they've done now since, obviously. They go on YouTube and look at stuff and say, Dad, you actually... You're not bad.

People are saying, like, you are Virgil van Dijk. Who's better? And, like, Virgil van Dijk is sick. And you're sitting there going, well, you make your mind up. You better be back in your dad. Who is better than you or Virgil van Dijk? I'd say me, innit? Plus he's Liverpool, you make your mind up that you better be backing your dad. Who is better than your version of Van Dijk? I'd say me,

isn't it? Plus he's Liverpool so I can't support that. Who is the best defender in the world in your view? Right now? Yeah, it's Van Dijk.

You think it's Van Dijk? Ramos. Yeah. Ramos, his age is obviously, it works against him but Ramos in terms of influence in the last seven or eight years

has been the standout because he's been a monster scores goals scored over 100 goals you know sent it back really

yeah crazy but Van Dijk the last two years has been the best Liverpool aren't

having a good time at the moment I'm not guided I'm not guided we've got some Liverpool fans in here and I tell you what I've made the most of this it's a beautiful thing every day I'm like going to it's the best we've got some Liverpool fans in here and I tell you what I've I've made the most of this

oh it's a beautiful thing every day I'm like watching the games I didn't care before I'm like watching sat there watching the games like I'm watching the United final

yeah just like that oh and then I'll text them oh you've just conceded what's the excuse today oh no fans all that nonsense no players got an injury

yeah heard it all you know you lastly you know you said you said that you're happy now happiest you've um you felt in a long time yeah yeah definitely like i'm just my face didn't actually say i did it my face didn't say no your face no i'm the happiest i've been man it's just because i don't know i've got three healthy children, four healthy children, now I've got a newborn just come.

A wife. Then he forgot. Who does everything, who's brilliant. Family, friends. Yeah, man, it's just... And business is going well as well.

And I can see... I can see stuff happening and evolving. You can almost, you can feel stuff happening and evolving you can almost you can feel stuff happening do you know what I mean you must have felt that with some of the stuff that you do

you feel you get onto something the momentum starts coming you can see it building so I'm in a good place man I'm really happy what do you want

what do you mean what do I want purposely ambiguous like what do you want what do you want when you think about what you want now what is it

I just I just want to be part of something that people go well that was that's the shit like that's

how they've done that fair play well played that's what I want why because that's how I've always been you play football

first and foremost I want because I want it to be a success, before that, obviously. But that recognition, I think we all have a little bit in us that you want that recognition, whether it's from your friends,

your close network of people, family, or outside that. Why, as a football player, did you buy the paper? Or do you go online? What number's beside your name? If you got a four out of ten buy the paper? Or do you go online? What numbers beside your name? If you've got a four out of 10, that paper's getting thrown away. Get a nine, a 10, 8, 10.

You're looking for that recognition. And I think we've all got a little bit in that. Why do you say well done to your team, members of your team? Because you know that person will feed off of that recognition. So I'm not ashamed to say that. I'm definitely like that as well.

Well, thank you so much for coming today. It means a lot and um you're an incredibly inspiring guy like i have no doubt that you're gonna you're gonna find that thing and it's gonna become um just as successful as everything else you've done in your life because you've got all the you've got the philosophical attributes that are conducive with success like you're you're not someone that got lucky you've clearly got a mindset that is conducive with success. Like you're not someone that got lucky. You've clearly got a mindset that is conducive with success. And especially when you talk about how curious you are with things. I like, when I say it, I mean it. Like the way you look at me

when I talk about something, like if I talk about something that's maybe a little bit outside of your realm of experience, you might as well have pen and paper in the hand because that's the facial expression, right? Yeah, I've got notepads at home. They're scanning, it's going in.

Really? So Umar, who I referenced in the podcast, is the CEO of Pretty Little Thing. And he was always the same. And he said to me, he was like, I've got notepads at home it's going in really so Umar who I referenced in the podcast is this year pretty little thing and he was always the same and he said to me he was like I'd get 16 year olds in this office

and I'd be like tell me about TikTok and he just sits there and studies them he doesn't know about it he knows about it but he will know through them and he'll learn

and he used to say to me I'm a sponge so Mahmood and Umar would invite me to the office sometimes four days a week and I'd just sit in the office and they'd just ask me questions. And then you'd see them sort of changing their strategy

a little bit on social media, et cetera. And their record speaks for itself. But yeah, you've been a huge inspiration for me for many, many years as a leader, as a guy. I didn't know you before a couple of years ago when we met and the guy you are and the leader you are is um is tremendously inspiring you're a good guy and you're incredibly inspiring as well so thank you

for making the time today but you inspire me now as well so it's uh kind of it works both ways i appreciate you appreciate you thank you cool man thanks Thank you.