The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett - Roman Kemp: Why Communication Is More Important Than Ever

Episode Date: March 7, 2022

Roman Kemp is the breakfast radio host on Capital FM, waking up millions of people every day. He is also a television personality, featuring on a variety of popular shows including Celebrity Gogglebox and I’m A Celebrity… Get Me Out of Here! and Soccer Aid. Roman is an charismatic and outgoing guy, but last year his sensational BBC Documentary revealed a new side to him and has helped millions of men with their mental health. In Our Silent Emergency, Roman explores the mental health and suicide crisis affecting young men and is looking for answers, after losing his best friend in August 2020. It was a hard project for Roman to make, and while filming it he had to take a break for a month to gather his thoughts. But his efforts in opening a dialogue around the crisis is aimed to help those who are struggling in silence. It is available to download on BBC iPlayer now. Follow Roman: Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/romankemp Twitter - https://www.twitter.com/romankemp @Joesbuddyline aims to promote and protect the mental health of young people, from Primary school to University - https://www.joesbuddyline.org Follow me: https://beacons.ai/diaryofaceo

Quick one. Just wanted to say a big thank you to three people very quickly. First people I want to say thank you to is all of you that listen to the show. Never in my wildest dreams is all I can say. Never in my wildest dreams did I think I'd start a podcast in my kitchen and that it would expand all over the world as it has done. And we've now opened our first studio in America, thanks to my very helpful team led by Jack on the production side of things. So thank you to Jack and the team for building out the new American studio. And thirdly to to amazon music who when they heard that we were expanding to the united states and i'd be recording a lot more over in the states they put a massive billboard in time square um for the show so thank you so much amazon music um thank you to our team and thank you to all of you

that listen to this show let's continue basically that documentary became my own therapy she said he's gone still such a weird thing that people don't want to talk about, but yet is the biggest killer in men our age. Roman Camp is truly remarkable and deeply inspiring. It's all about creating tools, you know, in our brain to learn how to deal with these issues. Your brain becomes Mike Tyson and is just beating you up and you've not had one boxing lesson in your life.

So you just can't do anything. You're just taking it. If you had told me 10 years ago that would be my job and that's what people know me for, I honestly would not even know where that would have even started. I'm pleased that I've got

a good core friend group around me. I'm glad that I've got my parents around me. I'm glad that I've gone out there and I've taught myself the tools that I need to go and fight Mike Tyson in there and be able to go up against him. And that's why I feel passionate to be able to go and do that for kids now.

Without further ado, I'm Stephen Bartlett, and this is The Diary of a CEO. I hope nobody's listening, but if you are, then please keep this to yourself. Roman. Hello. off roman hello what were you like as a kid tell me as a kid i was i'd say verging on um verging on attention seeker and yet always just performing i guess i loved uh mimicking and like and doing impressions and things like that like when when i first realized that i could do impressions i would do non-stop and i would i would go home i'd watch my teachers and i'd say to my parents oh this is what my teacher did today and i wouldn't just say what they said i would perform it for them how they did it so i think i was very much so like high energy kid i would say verging on an

adhd kind of assumption but um it was definitely a big change kind of when i went through my teenage years brothers and sisters older sister 32 very different from you yeah but to be honest like she yeah she is to be honest she she kind of she's someone that her name's harley harley moon one word very pretentious parents basically doesn't necessarily mean anything i think my parents were must have been slightly intoxicated after after the birth and it was a full moon so they named her harley moon but kids with harley moon and roman at that time were a little bit strange so yeah just no greater meaning other than the very pretentious parents but um yeah she she's she's an amazing kind of person i i got my work ethic from her from your sister from my sister yeah my my mom and my dad are are really supportive and and they're always like you know there in terms of like

anything i do is great they love it like couldn't ask for better parents, but Harley was the first person I knew that she went out at 15 and was straight away at 14, whatever it was. It was like, I need to get a Saturday job straight away. Like she was the one doing it. Like she wanted to do it. She was asking my parents, when can she go and do it? And I used to be quite, there's part of me that was a bit jealous of that

because she kind of had this like maturity quite early on where she was making money and she went out there and she became a portraits photographer and then a big celebrity portraits photographer and was being hugely successful so she was that person that I was like I need to keep up basically when you say I need to keep up basically a lot of the stuff that I read about you and your relationship with your dad in particular um there was some it felt like from reading what i read that there were some issues with you feeling um i guess not good enough because of his because of the fact that he had been so successful in his career as yeah is that accurate um yes and no because it to be honest i'm so again i'm so lucky because the

parents that i have are so supportive of what i want to do and it's the same way however they've parented me is the same way i want to be with my children i'm a massive family person i believe that everything i'm doing now is for is for my family and to create better people um but i think with my dad and my mum in that, in that respect, you know, my mum was part of the first group to ever perform in Asia. Do you know what I mean?

Like in terms of Wham and Pepsi and Shirley was insane. You know, my dad part of Spandau and acting career and all these types of things. I'm insanely proud of that so for me to then say i'm not good enough for it or could never better it puts a downer on those things i think so i put it kind of in separate boxes i'm not trying to emulate them because in my head they will always be my heroes i sat here with um eddie he han and a lot of the people like umar from from he runs pretty little thing.com and his dad obviously runs boohoo.com which is yeah they're

the founders and that they they often spoke to that feeling of when you've got successful parents it can feel like a there can be thoughts that creep in that make you think um often illogically especially in the case of all those individuals i've described that you've got you've got like a you know a mountain to to emulate or there's you know there's a pressure that yeah but that's that's society like like i i always use this as an example it's like you know you look at um you look at any any famous kid like that there is me myself being a an offspring of someone who is famous to people that are famous. I will still look at, you know, Brooklyn Beckham and see him getting a

scholarship for a photography thing and go, Oh, I bet he's got that because of his dad. And I'll catch myself doing that. And then, but that's a normal thing to feel. That's a normal thing to feel. I'm sure he hasn't, I'm sure he's got great talents, but I, I fully understand why people would look at me and go, Oh oh he's got to where he is because of his dad let me tell you at the beginning i asked my dad hook me up like help me out and he couldn't like he genuinely like that because of what i wanted to do was different but i would say with with my dad it's never it's never the pressure and with my mom it's never the pressure of how well you're doing and like you know tick this off tick this off look what i've done you've got to do this this this this

this this this it's not that the hardest thing with my old man and my mum for that matter is the public perception of them is how it is which is they are so nice and like there are these amazing people i I always feel like for me and my sister, there's more of a pressure for me to be able to have a good relationship and a wife that in the way that my dad has, that for me is more of a pressure than anything to do with work. The relationship that they have weighs massively on me because I don't want to ever go through a divorce. I don't want to ever go through a divorce I don't want to ever you know go through problems because they never did so when people ask me that question I'd rather like I'd do anything to have their relationship over their career yeah yeah when

you were that age say like 14 15 when you were thinking about what you wanted to be when you grew up what was your aspirations at that point um I kind of i signed the record i signed a a record deal uh at 15 um which came through in such a weird way like like it was like meeting people and someone saying oh would you would you want to try and do would you want to try and do songwriting and i had an interest in it and i worked with a few people worked in management companies as a saturday job and then they were like yeah cool let's do it and i signed a development deal with universal music which basically means you're the label's bitch right where you'll be a part of any project that they want you to be a part of so they they basically own any output that you have and what you can do

oh i mean you got paid at 15 it was okay and look at the same time i was being able to sit in meetings with people who are now heads of labels and and you know meet all these people and kind of grasp and understanding it's definitely helped with me now having you know interviewed so many artists in terms of what they're going through because i've witnessed some form of that and i did that for three years about three years from when i was 15 to 18 hey listen when i when i signed i signed a deal at 15 and then i went in to do my gcses no wonder i did bad on my gcses i could care less i literally i walked into some of my gcses I walked in the room signed my name I walked out I got a U in maths because I signed my name like like I was distracted at that age and I kind of guess I knew I didn't know exactly what it was but I knew that world was normal to me and and like the music world was

normal to me the film world was normal to me because I've grown up in it and i guess that's why i wanted to do it it's never been anything to do with fame in our house do you know what i mean like the idea of what you want to do when you're older was never attached to oh well i'll be really famous if i do that yeah what was your first sort of real real job then real job uh radio yeah so no so i i basically i i did i did um universal for a while and and worked with you know in a band and in bands and projects or whatever right and i then reached a point where that all ended like really abruptly partly because i just couldn't do it anymore and it was a lot i felt like it was a lot, I felt like it was a lot to take in. And I remember just sitting with my mom and just like, I was like, must've been 18

and I was just crying. And I was just like, I just, I can't be a part of this. Like, this is too much. Like the expectation on young kids in the music industry is a lot. What was, what was the, well, it's like, it's, it's lot. You're putting in your own emotional being into, you know, music or into, you know, this kind of like thing. I guess the only way I can describe it is how, you know, kids must feel if they're young footballers and they're trying to make it and they get cut from teams. It's a lot of emotion going up and down and up and down.

You know, you win at one point and then the loss is so hard. And when you're going through puberty, imagine that at the same time. You don't know how to handle that. And what were they trying to make you into a songwriter no so i was i was part of bands mostly yeah yeah yeah so they put me in bands like i was you know bass playing or or it was like oh would you want to write a song for other people do you want to do this this and that and don't get me wrong it was an amazing experience and one that I would still do now 100% I think that again it's it's everything that I've done obviously makes me the person that I am now and gives me the ability to do what I do now um and I I just at that point had just reached a moment where I was like I can't do it anymore so

and then I said to my mom I was like I was like I need to do something that is nowhere near media and I'm just gonna go and get a regular job every day and I ended up getting a job basically just cleaning toilets and cleaning equipment in a gym near me and I did that for about a year and a half and it was horrible fucking hell a year and a half is it it was it was it wasn't great it wasn't great i went out there i did i got all the what was it pc qualifications and all that type of stuff so that i could work in a in a gym but literally it's just glorified toilet cleaner essentially like i was just cleaning cleaning running machines for about a year and a half and then during that time i kind of realized that my creative side was like really struggling in terms of like,

I couldn't, I've always wanted to create and do stuff. So I knew how to like edit film and I knew how to film as well. And so with my money from working at the gym, I went out, bought a dslr started filming stuff and filming for friends and like rappers and like grime music videos and things like that just to make some extra cash and at the same time on the weekends i'd just make my own stuff and i'd put it on youtube and i'd just have fun with You know, I knew that world was a world because

I was, I'd come from a school where I sat next, my classmate was KSI. But that in that moment, you're like, so I know that's possible. And I think that's something that's so important for so many people when they know it's possible. And that's the problem with, you know, sometimes that's where I think people get stuck in worst case and worst case to say is a class system because they don't know what you can do and what your potential could go to. Yeah. Um, but you know, I'd seen JJ do it. I'd see Simon do it and all those types of kids. And I was like, you know what, this is, this is an amazing thing that they're doing. I'll give it a go.

And, uh, and from there, I was suddenly just kind of turned into this presenter role, I guess. Did you ever have an intention of doing presenting? No, God, no,

absolutely not. I would have been very happy just doing camera. Genuinely. I love, like I've always, still to this day, I will stand by, by the time I'm 60,

I want to have at least directed one feature film wow 100 you'll do it 100 no i know i'll do it because i'll make it happen i don't care how low budget it is but i will do it so how how so tell me about your first proper presenting gig then and how that came about there was a football company called football daily i know them yeah yeah and so this was right at the start of when they started out and uh they were just a group of lads that were just pushing out content and i just had this idea for a for a video that was based on uh like a football pickup line video and it was just silly and they were like well could you just go out and

film it for us and i was like yeah fine and then they were like actually do you want do you want to do you want to just be in it and do it if that would be because it was cheaper and quicker yeah right so i was like okay i'll just go out and do it and then from that they then started asking me to go on to like chat about football i mean football something that's so massive in terms of my life i'm an arsehole fan i'm sorry about that but how are you man united oh man united where you from london i don't hear a mancunian accent so that's good man united um no so but you know it's like i i started doing like silly kind of prank videos that then turn into chatting but it kind of all merged into one i ended up getting gigs with channel 4 mtv capital were

asking me to do like outside broadcasty bits basically just like for the breakfast show they'll go let's cross over to roman who's at wimbledon you know what i mean but those are so important those are every like you know with presenting is, is air miles is you, you've got to do it like, and, and you've got to do all of those jobs because they throw different challenges to you every time, you know, and, and they will come back and you'll look back and you'll go, I'm so pleased I did that really shit job because I know what I got out of it. You know, there is no, there's never a thing as a bad job ever because you will always get one thing out of it. Whether that just solely be,

I've done jobs that I never want to talk about ever again in my life. Like in terms of like how bad they were. But I learned that from them. So the next time I come to that point and I go, hang on, this is one of them. So therefore it was a good job to take. I'm not making that mistake later. At that time your life did you did you at that point have an idea

of what you wanted to do in the future when you were doing the football daily stuff and uh i if i'm honest i i wanted to i just wanted to be football presenting because that's what i loved and i was enjoying myself i was i was happy and i was at a point where i feel like i'm getting paid to do something that i don't feel like i should be paid for you know and i think that's that's always been my focus always it always has been am i happy doing it yes okay we'll keep on doing it and i think that's most important with anyone actually, again, it was a conversation with my mom that she said to me, she was like, what is it that you want to do?

And I was like, I don't know. I don't know. You know, I had so many things. I was like, should I, should I try and be an actor?

Because that's what my dad did. Or should I try and do music? Because that's what my mom and dad do. Should I stay there? And then she was like, no, no, no,

but forget about that. What do you like love doing? Like what, what makes you happy? And I was just like, like i don't know i'm just chatting about football with my mates she was like why can't you chat about football and make that your job and i was like well i don't know anyone in that and she goes well why can't you just make your own stuff and show people that you can do it i can't i wish i had a mom like yours man honestly like like that's what i'm saying like but these conversations are real conversations that she had with me she was

literally saying well you just have to show people that you can do that i was like well how am i gonna i can't just walk into sky sport she was like why not my mom really kind of again my dad my dad is too nice he's too good of a cheerleader anything i want if i said if i said um you know when i was working at the gym or anything like that if i said oh i had to clean this treadmill today and i think he goes yeah but i saw it and it was so good it was so good but that's what i mean you know the the best parents i couldn't have lucked out more you know if if we are living in a matrix world where you select your pod of who your parents are i have done so well um but yeah my mom was the person that was really like you know

what is it you love and and i said that and she was like you know create your job you know make it and and I and I did and you know she's my mom's very spiritual in terms of manifesting and I listen I'm more a coincidence person but um yeah she I think my mom always my mom always says this this one thing to me which I will have forever and I will always teach to my kids. And I think, you know, going back to what you were saying about that pressure of having parents that do what I do, you know, and we're all part of the same world. Having famous parents, the one word that people will constantly say to you is that you're lucky.

Constant. Yeah. They will constantly say to you is that you're lucky. Constant. Yeah. It will constantly say to you, oh yeah, but you got lucky because you got this, or you got lucky because your parents did this. And I always used to say to my mom, I was like,

I've just done this really cool thing. And all people say to me is, oh yeah, but you got lucky. It's like, so my mom used to say to me, she was like, she was like,

yeah, but break that down and you know break down what what luck actually is and she was the first person to say that phrase to me where she said you know luck is when preparation meets opportunity and it's so right you know I prepared myself in terms of I went out and I did the mileage I did all the rubbish jobs I learned about football you know all those types of things. I spent those hours, you know, wanting to be the best I could be at it. And then it just so happened that an opportunity

in life arose where I could show that skillset. And from now on, that's all I ever look at, luck ass, you know? And so when people say that I was lucky on something, I was like, yeah, but I prepared to be in that situation and it was fate that the opportunity was there. A hundred percent.

I mean, I even get that now. People will say to me that I got, got lucky. And I always cite one particular example, which was when I, I, when I was 18, broke kid up in Manchester in Moss side, see Manchester, up in Manchester and I was living in Moss side and I sent an email at 3am in the morning to the first person that came up on linkedin asking if they'd invest in my business and i was asking them for five grand they replied within a couple of hours and said they would if i if i assembled a team and i was super lucky the first person i emailed gave me five grand i was up at 3am in the fucking

morning i show the email on stage where i removed the times the little thing blocking the time stamp and i go you can call it luck, but I know where you were at 3am on that Saturday morning. And so again- But you created that opportunity. And that's what I'm saying. Like that opportunity just was there. And you had to have all the back knowledge

to be able to do, to provide it. If you just went to someone and said, oh, I want that. And then they were like, well, what have you got to show for it? And you had nothing. They wouldn't have done it. And another example that i actually learned actually from someone was interviewing me the other day if i got a dice and i rolled it a thousand times yeah eventually i'm gonna get like a coin let's say eventually i'm gonna get heads 10 times

in a row yeah just because i flip it a thousand times if i flip it a hundred times it might not happen but again it's like increasing the opportunity because of the amount of just flips if if I had prepared in my life to do a different type of job I'm sure there are so many opportunities that I have missed in this life that I'm living that would have been better for a different yeah that's basically how there's constant opportunities especially when you know that's why we're so fortunate to live in a place like you know we live in London like well I live in London like you know I mean it's so fortunate to live in a place like you know we live in london like well i live in london you know i mean i'm so fortunate to be able to be here and and you know not be in some you know shit part town that's why i always that's why that's to be honest that's why i always love uh you know i really like i really like you know the kind of grime scene and the the rap scene in in the uk

and all that type of stuff because these kids have come up from like bad areas with no so low opportunities and they've made time of it you know which is great so when did when did you get the call from capital and how did that happen so i had i had a call from them that was like um yeah can you come and do um uh this was whilst i was doing, I must've been doing football daily stuff. I was doing stuff for like for music, like just little hosting bits online. And then someone called me and they said, um, oh, will you come and, uh, do a demo, like come in and just do like a quick, let's hear how your voice sounds. So I was like, yeah,

come in, did that that thought nothing of it didn't really hear back then a few weeks later will you do some outside broadcasting bits where i remember i had to go to wimbledon and chat to people just in the queue rubbish like do you mean right rubbish stuff but all air miles you know all stuff that to this day, I still know exactly what they taught me in my first demo. And after that, it kind of went to a point where I, they offered me a show that was like, they were like, yeah, you can do like bit, bit roll show. So like 1am to 4am on a weekend, every two weekends. Do you know what I mean? And you're like, and, and, you know, a lot of people are like do you know what i mean and you're like yeah and and you know a lot of people are like you know all my mates again were like well graveyard shift but i was like yeah

but i'm off i'm gonna well to be honest i yeah well that one that it was so great because it because it was in the middle of the night i could make any mistake i wanted no boss is listening so no one cares right i could learn i've learned you know all the buttons and all those types of things i don't know now, I know radio presenters now that are like, what do you mean you do the buttons? Yeah, yeah, it's more fun. Like, you know what I mean? So it was, again, it was that moment

where I had to learn and I knew that and I wanted to learn the craft as much as possible. And with radio, I kind of just accidentally fell in love with it. If you had told me 10 years ago that i was hosting radio and that would be my job and that's what people know me for i would honestly would not even know where that would have even started crazy which is odd and it's hard because i get you get a lot of radio is a very you know as i say

it's a clicky place because a lot of people went to student radio and like, you know what I mean? Like those types of things. And I didn't take that natural path. To be totally honest with you, I said to myself, I was like, right, I'm on capital now. This is when I was 22. Yeah, when I was 20, well, 20, yeah, 21, 22. And I said to myself, I was like, right, I'm doing 1am to 4am every couple of weekends now. Within, well, in 10 years, I want to be doing The Breakfast Show.

And I did it in three, two and a half, three. And like that for me is still like the best, you know, achievement that I can name for myself. Why do you think you did so well in radio? Because I kept pushing and I kept, I kept like, I always like, I speak to, you know, younger radio presenters now, or even presenters that are there. And I always say, what show are you doing?

All this type of stuff. And then there'll be worried to say what I now say to them, what show do you want to do? And they won't want to say it because there's someone else there, but it's like, well, if you don't, do you know what I mean?

Like I was there every single day. I know every, every other week I was knocking on the boss's door saying, I'm better than that person. I can make it better. I can do this better. I can do this better. You got to do it.

No one's, no one, no one owes you something. Do you know what I mean? No one owes you that opportunity to have a better show or a better TV show or whatever. You know, if I go to a commissioner at a TV channel, I sure as hell have to go in there with a better idea

than what they've currently got. Otherwise, what's the point in being there? I'll sit there and go, oh, can you please give me a show? No. Like, I've got to prove that. I've got to show why. And that's all I did on on on cap to it was literally like i remember they gave me they they said to me there was like there wasn't any show slots going and i was like what have you got and they were

like saturday five till eight which was a horrendous show slot because 5. PM till 8. PM, which isn't like everyone knows that is dog territory. How come? Like, just because it's just low ratings, right?

People are getting ready to go out. Do you know what I mean? On a Saturday night, no one's really listening to the radio, those types of things. Not, it's not quite 8. PM where you're going to get him doing pre drinks and those types of things.

So it's just low ratings statistically. And I was like, I don't care. give me the show. I was like, I'd like you to show it. And then we took that and me and Joe, my producer, we gave it the highest ratings within that slot that there's ever been for one. And it did some record in terms of weekend numbers ever on capital why because we changed it we before capital was always um constant happy happy happy

as quickly as you can in between the song just say as little as possible move on move on move on move on well i wanted to create a show where i was like no that's not what if if saturday at five o'clock is quite a dead period for kids that were my age at that time which was like 2023 and i was like a lot of my mates are these youtubers and these types of things why don't i get some of them on we'll just play some games we'll have more fun with it and we just kind of created this a vibe you know instead of just going the classic route of what, of what they wanted to do. And because it was a rubbish lot, they just kind of said to me,

try it out. And we tried it and did it, you know, but it's just having that belief and just being like bang on the door and be like, look, if it works, it works. If it doesn't, it doesn't take it off me. So I'm pleased that we did that. And that kind of led to me then going into like an evening show slot you went on to do a documentary which i i watched which was incredibly moving for

a number of reasons um personally i've got a you know one of my maybe my best friend and my business partner for the first seven or eight years was um was depressed as we were running the business and i had no idea yeah So I only actually found out in hindsight. And he said to me when he came on this podcast, actually afterwards, after he had had a problem with alcohol and I'd caught him in the laundry room, we lived together at like 3m in the morning drinking alcohol. And I, cause at the time I didn't understand what mental health, um, disorders were. So I just thought, Oh, he's got he's a piss head yeah yeah you know what i mean but obviously that's i've come to learn that that's a symptom yeah something um and then it all came to a head one day where he got really drunk and

started exposing himself in front of employees and so long story but um then we had a chat and it was the first time we had a chat about what was going on yeah like anger or assumption and then he opened up to me and we cried on some sunday in the office and he started his journey to get seeing a therapist etc your documentary was just it was just exceptional for so many reasons can you can you take me through yeah because i because i know that you're working alongside your best friend joe, at the radio. Can you take me through, I guess the first question is, did you know anything was at all troubling, Joe?

No. I've known Joe since I started, six years. Six years straight, being with that person every single day almost like a boyfriend like that's that's that's like like we work together every day we go out you know all the time like like after shows all those types of stuff weekends go out if I had lined up my favorite goes over 10 20 if I had 30 mates i'd say 30 mates um i would probably put him last as to to who i would suspect would ever do anything like that i mean to put it to put it into context obviously the documentary you're talking about obviously being you know about male suicide and and male depression it was even this world that i'm in now, I really do not wish I was part of

this world. Like in terms of like, I wish I didn't have people talking to me about suicide, but this is where we are. You know, it's how life goes. That's, that's it. Um, but when it came to, to Joe, my, my producer, yeah, he, you know, he was the first person when I went to Wimbledon that day, he was the first person I met when I, when I did my demo for the first, first time, he was that person that was there with me this is someone that taught me everything I know in terms of my professional being now on in terms of radio he taught me everything and sat next to me literally two foot away from me every day on every single show you know laugh together as I say go out together all those types of things but i think joe took his own life in august last year um and that for me was a moment where

i i kind of i i had dealt with my own kind of suicidal thoughts and my own kind of depression. And Joe was very much aware of that, which is why it was so strange to me and why I felt like I had this piece of paper in front of me that said, everything you know about, or you think you know about someone that is suicidal in quotes is wrong because it doesn't have any form of symptom because that's why each suicide is different to the next and you can't you can't nullify it you can't be like oh if someone it's you'll know someone's suicidal because they'll look like this this this this this you'll never find those answers which is a scary thought but it's also um you know like what like what you said there like you didn't know that mental health disorders were a thing.

That puts you in a higher risk category than it puts me. The majority of men that take their own life have no idea that mental health disorders even are a thing. Most of them think that people are just kind of lying or people are just attention seeking when they say they have depression that's over 70 percent of men that take their own life are in that situation they see it as a means to an end they don't like what's going on in their life how do i make it stop take your own life it's it's it's so strange so yeah so sorry in a long-winded way i would never have thought that joe would

have been that person at all no that really does um make you think about all your friends right 100 but that's why but that's why like wow you know and and look when when i when it came to to making the documentary joe died in aug. I started making that doc in November. Two months, right? Because one, all I know how to do is through creative stuff. I don't, my writing's like, you know what I mean? I write something down.

I'm not going to lobby government because I don't know how to do that. Do you know, all those types of things. I just know how to make something and and i knew also selfishly i knew that if i do a doc i'm going to be able to meet people that have tried to take their own life i'm going to be able to meet psychiatrists i'm going to be able to meet professors and learn the science because i was so convinced in my head i was like i need to know all the things that i need to be looking out for for my other friends yeah basically that documentary became my own therapy and and

people watched it and i think that's why you know i realized after that shit like it is one it's everywhere and two there is no there's no way of telling so therefore the only people that can help those people are their friends and that's what the documentary is it's not a documentary about suicide it's a documentary about friendship and how we now have to take ownership of our mates what did that journey of creating that documentary and your own experiences teach you about? And this is one of the things that's really fascinated me for a long time. It's like, we're seeing this apparent increase in mental health disorders. And I say apparent because sometimes it's hard

to distinguish whether it's because of the increase in awareness that we have more people putting their hand up and say, listen, I'm suffering. Or it's because of the world has changed, social media, whatever you want to call it. And and people are we're living in a less um healthy way but so we're seeing this the data shows that there's a pretty significant increase in mental health disorders things like treatment resistant depression i'm actually the creative director one of the big investment investors in a um a tie which is one of the maybe the biggest mental health psychedelics business in the world so i do a lot of i have spent a lot of time looking at clinical studies and obviously psychedelics is it comes that depression more from a place of like what's

happened to you versus what's wrong with you yeah yeah yeah it's about like ayahuasca yeah yeah like it's yeah it's more sort of like trauma-centric approach to looking yeah what have you learned about what's causing the increase in mental health disorders from your journey? Um, it's, it's tough. I mean, I can only speak from a male perspective, um, obviously. Um, and I only ever have done because I, it's so easy. And the thing, the thing that the most, the thing that I saw the most was, oh, um, everyone's saying to me, wow, it's social media, isn't it? It's social media. The fact is it's not like, like social media is there. Yes. And, and it, and it can, you know, create a trigger or anything like that for someone that may be feeling down. I don't think it's the sole purpose. I can

also be madly inspired by social media. I can also be made to feel really really happy by social media i think the main problem with men is is purely down to is is almost toxic masculinity it's our it's our own kind of fault you know the pressures that we put on ourselves um to to be you know the person that we want to be to to to have the body that we want to to have the things that we want and to to have the job the family you know even the pressure that i put on myself to have the family that i should have you know i'm i worry that if i come to like the age of 50 and i don't have that how am i going to feel you know and it's all about it's all about creating tools you know in our brain for kids as young as five and and you know throughout primary school to learn how to deal with these issues throughout time like people have had depression it's just

how our brains have worked you know i mean that's how our brains are wired there's always been depression yeah you know you've got a right point in terms of like the data i'll obviously show that there's more because there are more cases don't get me wrong like throughout the pandemic obviously is i always like i don't go too much into the government stuff but i think it's so like grotesque to even trap people in their homes in the way that obviously they did do and not think about the mental health side of things because they haven't they completely ignored it like the like the government completely ignored how much of a problem mental health side of things because they haven't they're completely ignored it like the like the government completely ignored how much of a problem mental health will be during the

pandemic people being on their own not being able to go about their lives you know and also the trauma that that's going to have later on in life for kids you know i learned a stat the other day that is horrendous right and this is something that you know when i was asked will i go out and make another documentary and i think for this stat i want to because i can't quite believe it any business or any school has to sign a health and safety declaration right and that's how it is they all have to sign a piece of paper that says, if you hurt yourself here, we'll sign that. 100% of schools up and down the country sign that. There is also a declaration of mental health, right? Where a school has to look after a kid. If the traumatic event happens within school, they have to make sure that, you know, their mental health is looked after.

In the UK, 2% of schools have signed that why so you're saying that 98 of schools up and down the uk look at mental health and go nothing to do with us school is the most traumatic time in anyone's life if parents knew that if parents knew that the the schools don't care about your kids mental health then that that is what is you know that's what's putting us in a situation now where men are killing themselves because we don't know we've never been taught how to deal with it no one's ever looked after us teaching us how to deal with it you talk about toxic masculinity there one of the things that's always associated with that is just men's lack of willingness to like make a phone call and to a friend and say listen i am not okay and you know

you you also have been very open about the day where you were feeling like that and your super woman mother yeah once again um she she called you coincidentally or yeah yeah yeah coincidentally well it was kind of like yeah i went to call her and then like shit like i texted her a couple times and then she just called me because you were feeling bad so you text her yeah i mean people will tell you this but when you're in that zone you know if you're in a absolute spiral everything goes into a right blur all i know is that i was in my house and i was in my pants and i was i could not stop crying and i couldn't stop worrying about everything and my head was going like a whirlwind like i was worrying about stuff that wasn't even logical like what was your brain telling you i can't even like i can't even describe it like it's like the only way it feels like anything in my head that could have been a problem

was a problem have you ever had like you know when you're you're hung over and well like the next day i don't know if you drink but the next day right if you have a hangover you have this like paranoia thing like throughout like stuff just makes you feel a little bit edgy whispery like yeah yeah yeah it's like that but a million times the only way also that i talk about it is like it's like paranoia and it's like mike your brain becomes mike tyson and he's just beating you up and you've not had one boxing lesson in your life so you're just kind of like you can't do anything you're just taking it right and it's like your things like you look bad you've not done this your tax bill's this

you're this you're this you're this you're this are you ever going to do this you're never going to do this loads of like voices and at that point i just said to myself you know i can't i don't know what to do and the only thing i could think about was i was okay well i'll just i'll just you know take my own life i'll just kill myself that's that's how honestly how i felt because i was like that's the only way to stop this and then as as you said my mom called me and uh she kept me on the phone for about an hour because i was at the house and i'd like in my head i was like oh i'll just go to the train station and just you know do like you know take the jump for a train that's honestly what went through my head and then it's like at, at that point I was like, okay, fine. And then I was speaking to my mom and my mom got there within an hour

and we just kind of, do you know what? I don't even remember her getting there. It's a very strange place to be. It's an actual, you know, break, they call it a mental breakdown for a reason because I can't, your whole mind just blanks. And that's the same thing that I've spoken to a lot of people that have attempted to take their own life

and they all say the same thing. Those moments that you have are completely like just so intense that your mind goes, implodes and you don't even know. And that's why a lot of men will will tell you that when they you know if they take it to that step which is a huge step to to decide okay i'm going to take my own life a lot of men go that was my happiest moment because i felt like in that time i was in control of my life which is a really scary thought and a really sad thought that they feel like the

biggest amount of clarity that they've ever had in their life in the moment where they felt at peace was when they felt like okay i'm gonna do this and everything will stop but the problem is is that that's not the answer and it's really not and when i speak to you know in the documentary i speak to joe's mom keep in mind this is three months after her son has passed away and she's had to be told that her son who she's raised has taken his own life she she sums it up in such an amazing way which is kind of touching on a very dangerous topic of selfishness around suicide which a lot of people don't want to talk about but it's the the truth which is suicide isn't necessarily a selfish act by that person. But the problem is,

is that no matter what pain that person is feeling in that moment, no matter what pain you're going through in your head or sadness, you do not get rid of that by taking your own life. All you are doing is you are transferring it to everyone around you. And you are transferring that. that on average 180 people get um affected by one singular suicide and and that is what you are doing and it's just a fact you know like for two months i absolutely hated joe i hated him after he died i felt quite cold because i was just like how could you do that? I felt like, how could you

leave me, your mum, your dad, your sister, how could you do that? How could you let someone find you? Like, do you know what I mean? So it's, it's, it's, it's in that, that you realise that no matter how much that clarity is there and you feel like you're escaping a problem, you are passing that onto someone else and that's what's left behind you and i know for a fact that i know like i would put so much money on that if he was here right now he'd look at me and say sorry mate made a mistake 100 so much so much i was thinking about there so the first thing is my business partner also said to me he wanted he was considering jumping in front of a train that's what he said to me in our private

conversations the other thing is just this this um it's really it's really hard for someone who's not been through what you're describing there what you went through and evidently what joe went through to understand the, that place, if you've not been there, this is why it's so valuable. And like I was thinking, you know, must,

as you kind of alluded to there, you didn't choose to, for everybody to ask you in every interview about this topic, but the, the immense value that it's like, it's doing on someone like me, who's been fortunate enough not to be in that place, who can now understand from your description

there that mike tyson description can now understand that how that must feel yeah but i can't but i can almost but the thing is the thing is is what's better is because you are in a higher risk category than me yeah i know which is fucking terrifying yeah because but but now that i've spoken to you about it and that you're you're not because because that's that's the problem is that you know all of the guys that i spoke to said to me they were like didn't think mental health was a thing was a thing didn't think what i was going through was depression thought i was just rubbish and just thought i you know i wasn't where i wanted to be in life just wanted that to end that's the the realization of it you know and and again it's it's that thing of you know it's a it's a topic that no one really wants to talk about and is is also why i was so adamant that the worst okay

this is the worst thing right is if you're in that state your mate's in that state right the last thing he wants to do is talk to you about that so why is the kind of push always oh if you're feeling depressed you should talk no that's the last thing i want to do if anything you're going to make me revert more right you're going to go make revert more, right? You're going to go back more. The pressure should be placed on us as friends to make that call and to make that conversation happen with anyone that you would ever suspect. Even if you don't suspect it, make sure. How sure are you? How sure are you of the people in your phone book or your close friends that they're not thinking these thoughts? Not sure enough. But that's what I mean.

So all you have to do is have that conversation, but that will take you having that conversation. I always say, I do a lot of talks for businesses about mental health. And I always leave it with, you know, go away today, choose three people in your phone book that you speak to regularly

and ask them, ask them, them are they okay but do it twice you know and that's something that i learned from a group of lads who had lost their mate they they now look after each other by asking at the beginning of the conversation are you okay have the conversation and then just go back to it and be like so tell me are you okay choose three people do that two okay rule on them and tell me that you haven't found something new from at least one of those people it's fact like like it's so messed up for us as a society you know especially especially living in living in london like you know which is just a horrific but amazing place you know it's this beautiful you know cultural place it You know, it's this beautiful, you know, cultural place. It's my home. It's,

it's everything, but it is also a treadmill and you've got to get on it. And if you're not on it, you're not even in the picture. And that means that conversation switches to, what do you do? How can I profit off that? And the most important thing in a conversation should always be are you okay when you say to your mates hey how are you you go yeah i'm good glaze over it like why is that not the most important thing that you ask someone and it should be it should always be and and that's why for guys we forget that so you have to go oh shit okay well i'll ask it again you know and and that is you know be i want people to to be the the hero to to their friends that i know i wasn't to mine

because i know i wasn't and no matter how many people say to me ah he did what he did because of you know that was his prerogative and that sort of stuff yeah for sure but the fact is that if someone had had this conversation with me I probably would have brought it out with him. And I would have, I know if I'd got to the crux of it, if I had asked Joe those questions, if I had said to him, are you okay? If I'd done that twice, if I'd spoken to him, seen how he is, I don't think I'd be here.

I don't think I'd be having this conversation. And I want other people to understand that, that it's up to us as friends but you spoke to Joe about your struggles about me and did he ever did he not ever reciprocate and say well I've also been no no but that's that's that's his that's his thing what was he like as a guy in terms of being wicked was he was he a a guy that talked about deep topics like you've got your friends yeah was he talked about listen Joe is someone you've got your friends. Yeah, yeah. Was he talked about deep topics? Joe, listen, Joe is someone that is ridiculous. Like I still find it now ridiculous

even talking about him because it's like if he had known that I was out here talking about people, about him, it's odd. It's odd to be able to be speaking about one of your friends. And like, I don't know, it's odd. But he's someone that was the most outgoing

funny creative guy he always he teetered on genius and idiot constantly um he would have the most ridiculous ideas and at 99 of them you know out of 100 of them 99 would be ridiculous and one would be incredible and and that one incredible thing is the thing that we'd always champion and push forward but he's someone that yeah like i say like every single one of my friend group i've never known a more smiley person i've never known someone more happy-go-lucky more just happy to be there and that's why i say if that can happen to him best believe it can happen to anyone else did anybody ever find out what got him to that place or any any did he not leave him

no again this is another thing is hollywood believe would make us believe that people leave notes. They're not. Over 90% don't and never know. And that's why it's just a horrible, horrible, harsh thing. And it's so final. That's the problem is it's so final. Also, another thing is, you know, girls can't be taken out of this conversation as well because when I worked with the Nottinghamshire um street triage team who are an incredible team of of people that are police and mental health expert that go out on calls together so it'd be a mental

health nurse right with with a police officer and they will respond to um a mental health crisis right so someone trying to take their own life etc and i said to them i was like oh you know i went there and like in the mode of like oh yeah so it must all be guys that you speak to and they were like no actually it's around 90 of our calls are women having mental struggles or trying to take their own life and then you look at the data and you're like how does that make sense but the problem is is that us as men being men we choose more final methods in terms of how to end that pain and that's the unfortunate reality of it you made that documentary it was i mean it was it was everywhere and everybody was talking about it yeah really really far reaching in fact i know that the amount of people calling suicide and sort of mental health um support lines shot up

drastically it's a crazy thing it's like 700 percent or something crazy like that yeah 720 odd percent um but with that you then carry this i guess this like social you you become the ambassador for something right i do not want you become the ambassador for something, right? I do not want to be the ambassador for it, but that's how life is now. And the only reason why I'll go out there and do it is because of Joe's family, genuinely. It's not easy, right?

Talking about that. No, it's not. Like I'll give you examples. You know, I'll go to parties now and you like the main thing that like lads lads will come up to me and talk to me about is how how they feel which is nice in a way but it's a lot it's a lot yeah i won't lie that it's a lot it's a lot like that there are days where i i don't want to talk about i have people like again like i'll be out for dinner or something like that and someone will come up to him and say,

oh my God, that documentary, blah, blah, blah, blah. I wasn't thinking about my mate taking his own life, but now I'm thinking about it. Do you know what I mean? But that is life. Like that's always how it is. And the only way that I can kind of get around that is by, you know, you can tell, by the way that I talk about it,

I'm still passionate about it, you know, because I've been scarred by it. I've got such trauma attached to suicide and mental health. And that's a trauma that I'll always have. You know, when you, when you look for things, you know,

one of the questions I've asked, you know, other people, you know, that have been through what I've been through. I said to them, when does it get better? And their reply is,

it doesn't. You just learn to deal with it a little bit better. Do you know what I mean? Like you just learn a different technique to stop thinking about it. And, you know, that will be with me forever. I'll tell my kids about Joe, you know, I'll be bang on top of my kids' mental health, you know, what's going on with them.

But again, i just think it's throughout all of this you know as you say being apart and having these conversations now is is crazy and weird do you still feel a bit of anger sometimes towards joe for doing that um yeah every now and again every now and again that's normal yeah you know it's normal every now and again i'll be like every now and again it's more so like me and my mates will have a story and we'll laugh and then at the end of it we'll go like why like mate come on like because i know like i know that if he was there what he'd say to me yeah i can hear it clear as day he'd say i'm sorry mate many mistakes and and that that's what's so sad and it's like i know that whatever it is that he

was going through it ain't worth and it never is worth no matter what anyone's going through is that this this this is not an option it's not an option i've i'm mistaken because i can't remember her name so please forgive me if she ever hears this or friends ever hear this um there was a mum that that recently um got the wording changed around um the phrase commit suicide so now that that is not a phrase that that should necessarily be said so it's always you would refer to it as take take your own life because to commit suicide is actually an illegal act and therefore a lot of young a lot of parents were left with a child who if they had written it down that they'd done that that they would go down essentially as a criminal a criminal because you're committing an illegal act um so that phrasing is gone now which is quite nice is a nice thing um but you know suicide is still such a a weird thing that people don't want

to talk about but yet is the biggest thing you think how much i think how many cancer adverts think of any testicular cancer adverts you see on a daily basis now put that together with how many male suicide adverts do you see you don't doesn't yeah it doesn't compare it's the biggest killer for our age how have you found being in the public spotlight you talked a little bit about there about like people coming up to you at dinners and parties and stuff yeah like when you're in the spotlight anyway people come up to you and just say oh i love your thing yeah right but now they're coming up and say how have you found all of that in terms of the doc the doc or just in general really i mean in general mate like to be totally honest i don't know any different

yeah genuinely because i like it for me it was uh it's like in the same way that i could say to you how is it in that bit how is it hitting puberty it's like you'd seen people above you go through that so you kind of knew what to expect oh okay and you kind of dealt with it do you know what i mean whereas like for me because i was people coming up to me now saying oh can i get a picture and if i'm with a mate i have to say to the mate oh can you hold the phone and, you know, take the picture. I was that person. Oh,

right. Holding the phone half my life. Yeah. You know, so it just, it's always been, always been there. At any time I was a kid,

any, any time I was a kid walking into a pub, going to a football match, walking into a restaurant, anywhere. I clock people looking at my dad or my mom did you understand that they were like famous yeah mate loved it yeah loved it loved it like like put it this way my sister was always my sister was always uh really shy my sister was always really shy of it and my dad

always tells a story where he said it was a show and tell at school and um i must have been about six my dad was in eastenders he'd just joined eastenders and um his character name was steve owen in eastenders right and um and it was a big thing that he was in there and the fireman came to school like to show the fire truck and to you know show how this is our equipment and what type of stuff and they said any questions and my dad and my mom said i put my hand up and said you may think that's cool but my dad's steve owen so i've always i've always been insanely proud of my parents you know like and and you know i credit them for you know my dad has always been very patient with everyone and in terms of like people wanting pictures or stuff like that he always does

it yeah he always does it but but he taught me something else which you know we had a little bit of a chat about this before but i i he's never let me take pictures with people ever and i don't do that and and i always get i get told off about it because people are like oh if you're hanging out with this person you take a picture oh so if yeah. So if you want to take a photo with like Justin Bieber, then he's not going to. Yeah, even footballers. Right. Like when I was a kid, all I wanted was like, you know, take a picture. If I met a footballer, I'd want to take a picture. He was like, nah, enjoy that moment with you and that person. A picture is nothing. You know, it's gratification for someone else to see it. He goes, you should enjoy that moment,

live it with your eyes and, and, and, and speak to them. And if, if and if you really want to you know make a moment in that person's life go up to them and say you know you know what i really really like your work i really appreciate what you've done i really like this that goes so much further than you know if someone came up to me and said i just want to let you know that i really like what you did that means so much more than anyone just running up to you and going get a picture take a picture run off yeah yeah it's like do you know what i mean yeah you know you must go through the same thing yeah you know if someone came up to me and said mate i really love your podcast i really love you know everything you've done the business the businesses that you've created yeah it means so much more yeah um so i'm always pleased about that so yeah so so

fame in terms of for me has always kind of been, uh, there's pros and cons to, to our jobs now. Fame is a con, is a, is, is a bad part of it. The good part is that we get to do fun stuff. Interesting.

You, the good part is you get to speak to interesting people. Yeah. Sat here. The, the con is that when you're out for dinner, someone may have watched that conversation yeah and want to interrupt you yeah and talk to you about it yeah i went to i was i

was went to the like united way game the other day and i always get it in certain places so like whenever there's a younger demographic dragons is going to change that i was talking to my team this week because yeah like bbc one's a slightly more parenty audience really change that you'll see that so when i'm in my when i at Old Trafford in the like gallery area, which is all predominantly a little bit older people. Yeah. No one bothers me. If I go out into the,

if I go to an away day, honestly, last week, someone had their arm around me the whole game. I love your, show me on his phone. Look, I love your pocket.

Yeah. And I'm like, please can I watch the game? Yeah. Come on. He's like, and he's like, and you know,

and you think, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm wearing a fucking hoodie and like, you know, but yeah, but that's like COVID was a good thing and that says well yeah it was a really good thing no it's actually a conversation i started having and you've experienced this much more than i have which is just i will there become a point where i become more of an introvert and don't want to go to places because of the amount of people that are like it's exhausting

right and i don't want to be i'll never be an arsehole i know that for sure i'll never say no it's tiring right it's tiring for sure but naturally that will happen because your life changes like you're gonna be on a tv show that is watched by millions of people like like this is that's you know it's what my dad what my dad always says you know and that's you, that's why he always says to me, you can't, you know, people that get angry at fans or whatever, and like, you know, or rude to people, you can't put your head above the parapet and not expect to get hit. Do you know what I mean? Like, how can you do that?

Like you're choosing to go on a show that is watched by millions of people. So therefore, if you go out, you need to be more careful. You need to, you know, like, you know, know understand that that people are going to want certain things and that's fine but that's just that's just the world you've you've met a lot of very um famous supers mega stars and you've partied with a lot of them and been very close to a lot of them i'm reading some of the stories about justin bieber when you look at some of these people yeah that have been wildly successful yeah what what have you noticed about like their happiness and like the ones that are happy the ones that you think oh god i'm concerned for this one what is the what's your general observation are these really happy people honestly i think it's it's all about

it's all about the values it's always about what are they doing it for, you know, and the family life, you know. There's people that... What I always find so interesting is I think one of the reasons why I'm able to, again, do the job that I do and speak to those people who are on such high pedestals is because you've got to remember that I've grown up with a godfather who is, or was, and still to this day,

one of the most famous singers ever in George Michael. And growing up with George, I saw very quickly that the more famous you get, it does not become more fun. It doesn't. You don't know who's your friends. You don't know those types of things and i think that that can lead people to be into a bit of a troubled situation you know

you get approached by so you don't have a good core friend group like a big core friend group that can lead to everyone around you being yes men that just want to be on the payroll that will do something because they think that it will help in their career and those types of things i'm uber fortunate i've got really nice friend group and the artists that i know you know i was speaking from a music music background the artists that i know that have those incredible friend groups are just amazing people like ed sharon yeah ed is incredible like but ed's values are so correct you know and his his parents are lovely people as well in terms of you know the pleasure of you know having dinner with his dad and stuff like that and like they they're just people that understand that this is just fun the

creativeness is just the fun you know all the fame and those types of things are just a side note you know ed ed does everything he does now i'm sure because he's he's so family orientated and that's so important you know he's married to cherry who's his childhood sweetheart you know it's the same i'll give you another example it's like nile horan's one of my good mates nile's friend group is all his friend group from young school School, isn't it? Young. And they will kill him in conversations or like, do you know what I mean? His cousins will rip him to shreds

and all those types of things. And all it does is just ground him constantly. And it's that grounding nature that if you don't have that within this world or that world, you're going to struggle. Justin, for instance, was someone that was taken at like nine he didn't have a chance to to build a proper friend group didn't even have a chance and so you worry for people like that because you know that's why you know he's now found faith and

that's his thing and and that is his grounding moment in his life and his wife of course she's a exactly she seems to be a good that's what i mean so it's you know for him he has those things for me it is this cool group of cool group of mates and you must meet a couple that you're a bit concerned about in terms of always because i've met a couple of you know famous people and i thought fucking oh they're not happy no you know could you feel it when you meet them with their energy and all the time instantly uh there's there's there's a few people that that you know i don't even know that well and i've ended up having to reach out to because i feel like i probably should and it's sad it's

really sad like sometimes it can be a sad existence money can make you feel amazing 100 it can buy happiness but that happiness can run out like that's the thing as quickly as your bank balance can run out that happiness can run out like and people struggle like people really really struggle and it's and this is again this is another thing what what i learned with making the doc about suicide and talking about you know mental health was the first thing I saw when um when people uh heard it like a press release came out saying that I was doing a documentary about suicide Twitter was like what what does a celebrity kid know about struggling and blah blah blah mental health and these types of things but the thing is is that it's all you know those struggles that you see artists going through or you know addiction problems or those types of

things it's all just it's only relevant to what their life is you know those problems the problem that someone in a lower class system has in their head will be just as high as someone in a upper class system because it's just relevant to the circumstance and it's big in their head and that's what people have to understand is that no matter what the problem is you know people say oh it's an upper class problem or whatever like they like first world problem that's what people say right it's not that that's not to be looked at it's it's just something that that's what's affecting you and you don't wear a uniform for depression there isn't a job title for depression yeah you know one of the things you said at the start of this conversation was about um one of the expectations that you do feel

a bit of pressure to me is the one in your sort of romantic life right yeah? Yeah. I've struggled with that for a long time, I've got to be honest. Yeah. Struggled with girlfriends, dating, all that stuff, Tinder, all of the way that people date in the modern age and just like finding good people and really putting the effort in because I can't be bothered with the small talk.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So tell me about that. Are you a single man right now? I'm single right now, yes. Yeah. To be honest, it's like, my one thing that I struggle with and i've i've had girlfriends that you know in the past where i've i've i've been an absolute arsehole and like of

course like do you know what i mean like and i've let work get in the way i've let that lifestyle kind of get in the way but the one thing that i know is that i i want that relationship i see my mom and dad have i want that like more than anything you know and i just i think the thing that i panic about more is you know it's it's an odd thing but it's like like for me i think it's an insecurity that a lot of men have that never talk about as well which is will i be able to have kids when I'm older? People never talk about that. But like, I never hear any of my mates talk about that, but I'm always like,

oh, that's my biggest fear. Someone says, what's your biggest fear? That. Cause I think that my sole purpose in this life is, is just to make other people that are nice. Like,

that's how I feel. So, you know, for me, I'm such a family person. I feel like at this point in time, I worry that if I got into something would i be able to give that person what they deserve in terms of being a partner because i am work focused

and i do like and i'm enjoying my life right now i'm enjoying doing what i'm doing and i don't want to like defer from that have you struggled when you're in a relationship and if so what is the what is the in your sort of self-aware opinion what is the reason why you struggle in relationships um i struggled in relationships in the past and i still will struggle now going forward because i always have this massive fear that there is resentment on my future partner's part do you mean i i never i couldn't be with someone that doesn't really work or do those things because i'd be so scared that they'd look at me and think oh well it's fine for him because he can get this or afford this or do this and this and this do you

know what i mean i always try my best to to make sure that i'm with someone that i can raise up as much as people on the outside raise me up you know because that's that's a horrible thing that i see so much and look i go through it even now like you know people come up to me and they go oh my god your dad is such an amazing person blah blah do you ever think about you with your dad and with you with your dad and all this type of stuff and i'm like you know my mom is wicked like do you know what i mean and that i think that worry that i always had with my mom and i always felt like i had to stand up for my mom and be like hang on she played at Live Aid as well do you know what I mean she had a number one record as well I always feel like I worry that in a about that in a partner and I want to always make sure that

a partner knows that that no matter how many people are coming up to me and saying oh you know you're doing really well doing really well I'll always be there and say yeah but she's doing this that's so interesting you know what i mean do you know what i i don't because i've not i've not been through that yeah but that's that's what i mean that that's that's the thing that i think is so important i see so many asshole people like and i've seen it my whole life right the celebrities that you they introduce themselves to you or you you speak to them and their partner just stands there and they don't even introduce them to you and you must have seen that growing up because that that feels like it's very front of mind for you whereas i guess yeah yeah for sure

people just don't want to talk to my dad but it's like you know it's a partnership you know my bad dad's always obviously my mom now yeah fine but like i don't want that i don't want my partner to feel like everyone just wants to talk to roman i don't want that like i i really don't want that I don't want my partner to feel like everyone just wants to talk to Roman I don't want that like I I really don't and I had people and or for my partner to think what I do isn't as good as what he does or doesn't earn as much money as what he does or doesn't you know get as much gratification as he does does that mean that you go for no it means that I got I I I have I love like women that have their, you know, life going on or like a busy or those types of things that attracts me more than anything.

You know, you look at the girls that I've dated in the past, they're girls that are doing their own thing and they're fucking good at it. Like, and you know, and it's one of the reasons to be totally honest with you. It's one of the reasons why I don't really date English girls ever. I love someone not knowing what I do for a living. I love someone not caring at all if i was to ask one of your your two last exes if i said why did your relationship with roman end what do you reckon they'd say um too focused on work too focused on what he's doing um i'd say that that's interesting i i was that

guy for a long time maybe still am yeah but there's nothing wrong with being that and that's that's what i have to learn there's nothing wrong with being that because if you are happy in your life if you are you know getting that fulfillment which i feel like i am then that's okay there's a time for everything yeah i see it for me it was like a chapter so there was a phase of my life where i was very very very selfish but i always wanted romantic connection in a relationship i started to actually learn the importance of it studying some stuff and seeing that men that um had a romantic partner for their lives were lived like several years longer got ill way less and i

was thinking okay maybe having a relationship isn't as is equally important as just making millions of pounds and then i started to feel i don't know you get older you've had a lot of sex with a lot of people that you just can't remember yeah and you thought well that wasn't it that didn't feel yeah the day after so you go okay this is more substantive to have a meaningful relationship and then i've started to realize that, this is only ever going to work if I compromise a little bit sometimes. And also find someone worth compromising for. Yeah. But a relationship is all about a compromise.

That's it. It's always about compromise. And it's about finding someone that is your best friend, not about, you know, someone that you just find really fit. Are you compromising? Do you think? At the minute, I'm not because i i feel like at this moment in time and i'll be totally honest with you after um after i lost joe after joe died i

kind of got in this mindset where i was like you know what i just need to live my life i just need to do what i want to do uh and not feel like if i i didn't personally i didn't want to get into a relationship because i felt like some of my relationships or some of the moments that I've been with people, I feel like I wasted my time. And I can't not feel like that. So many people, so many girls feel like that about guys that they've dated.

I'm sure that this is this podcast. And I felt like that too. And I felt like, you know what, why was I trying to compromise when I need to enjoy myself a little bit, you know, and find that kind of happiness and i and i firmly believe that that time will come i'm a definitely a relationship person 100 yeah but you know i believe that time will come but right now i just know that it's more so in my head it's

like i know that i could get into seeing someone or whatever but i just know that it'll reach a point where i can't give them what they deserve and a girl doesn't deserve to have someone that might be too tired that day to even text them yeah yeah do you know what i mean yeah yeah like and i'm someone that likes my own space so it's hard so looking forward to the future then one of the things you said earlier was that you are the type of guy that like knocks on the door of your boss's office and says listen i want that show this is what i want so tell me what it is that you want looking forward professionally in your future. As to where I am right now,

I'm very happy where I am right now. Like very happy. Therefore, I'm not urging myself to knock on any doors. Genuinely. There are things that I feel passionate about, which I really feel like I'm going to make this knock on any doors, genuinely. There are things that I feel passionate about, which I really feel like I'm going to make this and I want to make this going back to, you know, schools and mental health, which I think is a really important thing. And I have a platform and to be able to do it. So I will do that. I think the common question I always

get asked is, oh yeah, so what's the next step? TV. And it's it's like no it's i'm 28 years old and and i've got in my opinion the best job in the uk i get to wake up every day and and feel like i'm back at school waking people up every day that time will come that pressure that i that i'll put on myself to go and find the next thing or to think about where I want to move next will come later on. Right now, I'm in a genuine position where I love what I do. I get up at silly o'clock, but second I'm there, I'm happy and enjoying it. And I don't feel like, you know, we spoke about this earlier on as a, as a presenter, if I came out of radio tomorrow, I'd be worried. I'd be thinking, oh shit, have I been on TV

enough this month? Have I, have I tweeted enough? Have I done Instagram enough? Like, I love the fact that my job now, I don't have to think about that. I don't have to post on Instagram if I don't want to, because I i don't have to post on instagram if i don't want to because i've just spoken to seven million people that week do you know what i mean and and been with them through a journey every single day the pandemic was an amazing thing like in terms of i remember i had two weeks two weeks holiday in april 2020 and I was going to take it. And my dad called me and was like, you can't. I was like, what do you mean? He was like, you can't go on holiday.

He was like, this is like the most important time that you will ever have to, you know, be with people and go through this with them. You can't just walk away. They're relying on you to do that. This is your responsibility to do it. He actually got quite angry at me because he was just like, no they're relying on you to do that this is your responsibility to do it you actually got quite angry at me because it was just like no it's your responsibility to do that to to provide some form of normality for those people and um and so i did and you know

throughout the pandemic it was you just we created these relationships with people that are working you realize how much radio means and you you create friendships with listeners and with people up and down the country that you meet and that to be able to go in every day and say that's my job is an amazing thing and i really truly genuinely love it in the spirit of one of the things you said to me during this conversation now that we've been talking for a little while i feel like i have to ask you yeah how are you doing i'm doing all right i'm doing all right there are bad days there are bad days where you know you kind of you kind of think you know did do i really want to be in talking about suicide do i really want to be going over a trauma

that's in my head you know do i want to sack in the whole job and and just i've got enough money now to live a nice nice little life somewhere quiet and just go and do that but i think those are all kind of moments in my life that are you know moving forward and like you said like i think there's so much more life for me to learn i think that I am happy. If I think about it, I am happy. I'm proud of the things that I've achieved, you know, little things, little things that I've achieved.

You know, whenever people ask me, what am I going to do in five years? I'd rather say to them, well, this is what I did five years ago. The last five years looked pretty decent. So I'm comfortable in my, you know, ability moving forward you know i think that i'm definitely tired which is one thing always tired what do you mean by that

always like tired in a physical fatigued way okay which getting up at 4 30 will do to you um but no i'm okay as i say there's there's up days and there's down days but those down days i'm pleased as well that i've got a good core friend group around me i'm glad that i've got my parents around me i'm glad that i've gone out there and i've taught myself the tools that i need to go and fight mike tyson in there and be able to go up against him and that's why i feel passionate to be able to go and do that for kids now we have a closing tradition oh yeah each guest that comes on the podcast writes a question for the next guest inside of the diary of a ceo so um okay how could you be more authentically you? Woof. By being off my phone.

I'd say. And I mean that just because when I did I'm a Celebrity Get Me Out Of Here, that was the happiest I've ever been. Easily. In there, I was Ro

which is what my friends know me as that was me like this here is someone who has to work has to do all these types of things and that

and has all these other sides but there I didn't have any phone no expectation no nothing i completely forgot the cameras are on you all those types of situations so so for sure the more i can stop working and enjoy moments without work that's how i can be more authentic than me interesting thank you so much honestly roman you know um you know i the amount of um the amount of value that your openness to do what you're doing and i see it as you are like doing a service for society and especially because of the the horrific nature of the statistics surrounding like mental health and suicide i can't tell you even for me what this conversation has done in terms of opening my eyes yeah and like i know

like so i just i guess what i want to do is i just wanted to thank you because i also i don't envy and i'm going to be honest i don't envy the position of people coming up to me all the time and talking about a topic like that yeah i find it hard just even now people talking to me about oh here's my business idea yeah yeah yeah and i sometimes open my dms and i'm having a good day working out and then i'll see a message which is very which is of a similar vein which is very very tragic and it will just push me off a little bit yeah so for you to to choose knowingly to put yourself in the position of being a involuntary advocate uh like the ambassador of this this topic is such a self do you find it hard saying suicide

you do there's a little part of you that's not just up there yeah it's so weird it's not a swear word when i first did the documentary when i first did the documentary sorry to cut you off please continue after tell me how great i am but but when i first started making the documentary when i first did the documentary sorry to cut you off please continue after tell me how great i am but but when i first started making the documentary i felt like and you're you know you're we're going to talk about today we're going to talk about it's weird but it's it's a normal word it's life again it's the biggest killer in men our age like suicide is a very normal word it makes you feel uncomfortable doesn't it yes it makes and that's what has to stop but i just could see

in your eye there yeah i was thinking about these dms and i was thinking i'm an ambassador for suicide yeah suicide sounds you know what suicide it sounds like it's a really emotional word yeah so with emotional words we tend to you know use them sparingly yeah i was just intrigued because it's something that I had. Let me finish off. Sorry. No, but I genuinely mean that from the bottom of my heart. Like it's, it's what you're doing.

As I said, I don't envy it's not easy, but the tremendous, I think, service it's doing to society at a time when we need it the most and we need people that are willing to have those conversations and be honest because a lot of men are still caged is it's like impossible to quantify i don't think you'll ever get to see the good you do but i just want you to know from my perspective and just on me personally from seeing that documentary that god if i can't think of many greater goods that someone can do for men in this day and age so thank you as a man but as just as

a citizen of society as well thank you well i very much appreciate that and thank you uh for having me on your podcast thank you so much appreciate it Thanks for watching!