The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett - Sadiq Khan: Why Are Police Officers Attacking Women? How Safe Are We REALLY?

Episode Date: January 26, 2023

From sharing a Tooting council flat with 9 other family members to shaping the lives of 9 million people as the mayor of London, Sadiq Khan knows where ambition can take you. He also knows what the responsibility to his city has cost him, affecting all the other most important responsibilities in his life, from his mental health, his faith and even the safety of his family. Discussing everything from Donald Trump to responding to terrorist attacks, this is a landmark conversation, that breaks through all the usual smoke and mirrors of politics and takes a honest look at the person behind the power. Sadiq: Instagram - https://bit.ly/3j7Mehi Twitter - https://bit.ly/3j7ZXou Follow me: https://beacons.ai/diaryofaceo

Quick one. Just wanted to say a big thank you to three people very quickly. First people I want to say thank you to is all of you that listen to the show. Never in my wildest dreams is all I can say. Never in my wildest dreams did I think I'd start a podcast in my kitchen and that it would expand all over the world as it has done. And we've now opened our first studio in America, thanks to my very helpful team led by Jack on the production side of things. So thank you to Jack and the team for building out the new American studio. And thirdly to to Amazon Music, who, when they heard that we were expanding to the United States and I'd be recording a lot more over in the States, they put a massive billboard in Times Square for the show. So thank you so much, Amazon Music. Thank you to our team. And

thank you to all of you that listened to this show. Let's continue. Let's be frank. Donald Trump was obsessed with me. The mayor of London wasn't somebody of my background, my faith, he wouldn't have responded the way he did, would he? Mayor of London, Sadiq Khan, is the first Muslim mayor. Has made some powerful opponents. The new image of Britain's multicultural society. The mayor is with us. Do you think London's safe?

Well, we've reduced homicides, knife crime, gun crime. I don't think people feel safe in London. I'm not excusing it, I'm explaining it. The cuts have got consequences. There's been a lot of instances of police officers who have attacked, raped women and girls on the streets of London. What are you doing about that? We're doing it now.

How? I've been criticised for this. Since you were elected mayor, what are the things you look at and go, do you know what, I failed there? Well, that's a good question. But I'm running for re-election in 467 days' time. I'm not going to answer that question honestly because nobody else is going to use it against me.

You can't tell the truth because someone might use it against you? I think most MPs have got to be inauthentic. I'd tell you why, because... What's been your hardest day as London mayor? There's been a few. At least 58 people were killed in the fire at Grenfell Tower I still remember

the images I still remember the heat one family six people wiped out and a number of terror attacks in London London Bridge

Westminster Bridge Finsbury Park I went to a lot of funerals that summer was hard yeah Sadiq, give me your context. I spent a long time reading through your backstory and I think it's an especially important place to start because it appears to be much of your reason for being and your reason for doing. So can you take me right back? I want to hear about Pakistan.

I want to hear about your earliest years in London. Sure. So firstly, it's a pleasure to be on this, Stephen. Can I just say two things before we start? It's not me being a sycophant. And please don't think I'm being patronising. But firstly, I think you realise that you're a massive role model to so many Londoners.

And there are people that you will never meet who you've had an impact on. And so thank you, firstly, for that. And I meet people that you don't meet who, when I say, who's your role models? And I pray you in aid to give examples of the hard work you do. So thank you for that. But secondly, congratulations. It's always lovely to meet somebody who's incredibly successful, who's normal. So my family's story is quite complicated. My grandparents and great grandparents were in India, both on my mum's side

and my dad's side. And the story of India is India was part of the British Empire. And the short version, the long story, is in 1947, the British decided to give up India and partition India. I don't want to go into divide and rule and stuff, but there'd been sectarian violence now between Muslims, Sikhs and Hindus, and a Muslim in India wasn't safe. Just like a Sikh and Hindu, generally speaking, in West Pakistan and East Pakistan weren't safe. Why? Because these countries were going to be ostensibly Muslim, and the middle India,

ostensibly Hindu and Sikh. So my grandparents and great-grandparents left everything behind, everything behind. So my parents had experienced being immigrants once already, right, from India to Pakistanistan and they had a comfortable life in pakistan middle class up middle class uh my dad decided he was in the pakistani air force he went first to australia uh and if any australians watching this this is no aspersion on your country it's's a great country, right? He didn't really like Australia. And so when he went back to Pakistan, he didn't want to go to Australia to live. And he came to London and he made London his home. And this is a London which, yes, when he first came, there were signs saying, you know, no blacks, no

Irish, no dogs by blacks, anybody who wasn't white. And when I compare my mum and dad who traveled, you know, three, 4,000 miles, learned a, anybody who wasn't white. And when I compare my mum and dad who travelled, you know, 3,000, 4,000 miles, learnt a new language, learnt a new culture, raised a family, I was born in Tooton in St George's Hospital. I first lived a mile up the road in the Henry Prince Estate on a council estate. My parents moved a mile the other way after when my dad managed to save a deposit for a house.

And I now live a mile and a half from where I was born. So I've literally gone a mile radius, a half from where I was born. So I've literally gone a mile radius, right, from where I was born. My grandparents and my parents had this huge strife and travel all this way. So I'll be the first Khan in three generations not to be a migrant because I'm staying here. That whole experience,

growing up in a house of 10 people, eight siblings in total, in a council house. Flat, flat, yeah. Council flat. The immigrant story you've told there, watching your parents struggle to provide for all of you, what imprint has that left on you when you look back and go,

that's why I am the way that I am. That's, it's really, I'm really trying to get at the real defining attributes, the things that make Sadiq different from the average person on the street, the work ethic, the piss, but you know. And with that, I also want to know, you know, one of my guests on this podcast that was the coach for Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant said that we all have a dark side and much of our dark side is, can be attributed to the thing that makes us quote-unquote great oh you've seen the last dance yeah oh god it's amazing my favorite from upstairs in the wall yeah so so um so I think you tend to mirror emulate and be like those you're around you copy their mannerisms their behaviors and

so forth and i i was raised in a family where we felt incredibly privileged my mom and dad both made sure we understood that this privilege meant we had a responsibility to you know listen to your teachers at school to work hard um and you know to to you know, listen to your teachers at school, to work hard, and, you know, to not be a shirker, basically. And so, you know, all of us not just had a really good work ethic, still do. All of us also, it's interesting, I was thinking about this the other night, I've given something back, whether it's coaching in boxing or whether it's, you know, volunteering at a swimming club, whether it's, you know, politics or whatever, because that came from our parents, what we saw in relation,

and also what we saw was going on the estate and what our friends were doing and stuff. And, you know, and the interesting thing about our estate was everyone worked, all the dads worked, most of the mums had a job and, you know know there was a work ethic and a sense of community I'm not pretending it was brilliant you know roasting into classes and stuff but yeah so you know that you know my wife often you know jokes that you know I can't sit around doing nothing I've always got to be doing something because I always saw my dad doing something even if I went on you know the odd day he'd have off he'd take us to museums take us to galleries go out on a tour of london go to hyde park so so there was no there was no time for doing nothing um and so it's really and so it's hard for me to actually spend

downtime go to the theater just do leisure or you know read a book for for the sake of reading a book and stuff because you know there were go-getters i i saw that throughout your story um and i heard it from some of your colleagues as well that and i also heard you say in fact in one interview where you said that you work seven days a week that's not very healthy yes and no so um i'm very lucky i'm privileged i'm on Mayor of London. I did a meeting last week with my staff, my sort of top staff, and I said to them last week, listen, I've got to reapply for my job

at the next election. In this term, we have 475 days left. That's now down to 467 days left at the time we're recording this. We've got to work on the basis that there is a possibility, I'll try my best that it doesn't happen, there's a possibility I will not be re-elected. When I reply for my job, Londoners will say no. We've got to use every single day we have left, every hour we have left, to make sure we maximise the living for our city,

to make it safer, to make it fairer, to make it greener, to make sure we maximize the living for our city to make it safer to make it fairer to make it greener make it more prosperous you can't afford to waste this time it's a privilege it's a privilege to what about you though and your and your family and all the other things that make life you know worth living it's not just work right yeah but but some of the stuff i do is work without being work i'll give you an example so uh i might go and support uh uh a theater production my support is going along to watch it and they can then amplify it i've been there right but it's a great night out for for my wife and i or i might do something with with my daughters and stuff you know but i recognize that my my wife and daughters and my mom and my brothers

and sisters and my in-laws you know have made sacrifices by me doing my job and daughters and my mum and my brothers and sisters and my in-laws you know have made sacrifices by me doing my job and you know and i'm cognizant of that and i'm grateful for that you can't do the job that i'm doing without the support of your family by the way you can also do this job i work three days a week the previous guy did that right you can do that right but he may not have felt privileged to do the job i I think it's a privilege. And I remember when I was in government, and I remember in 2010, the last year I sat around the cabinet with, you know, Gordon Brown and the team. And I think there were some incredibly talented people around that cabinet in the prime of their game. some incredibly talented special advisors in the prime of their game we lost the general election and their peak years they're not in government they're not

advising the government had i known in 2005 when i first became an mp and had you know tony and gordon sat down with 300 plus mps and said, listen, we've got to maximise these five years between 2005, 2010. I think things may have been different because we'd have realised it's a privilege we've got to use every day we have, you know, and so I'm not criticising Tony and Gordon, but I'm saying you don't know how long you've got your job, right? And so my view is you make the most of it. There's time to rest later on. That's also not guaranteed though right well you know in terms of life generally yeah but you know i love my job i've i've been

lucky to have three big jobs i was a lawyer for 11 years loved it loved being a lawyer i was a parliamentarian and a minister for 11 years loved it and i'm now the mayor i've been the mayor for the last six and a half years and so if you're lucky enough to have a job you love and your family is supportive you've got to have a supportive family my wife is so supportive she's not just a an incredible cheerleader she gives me good advice she pulls me up you know when I when I bring the arrogance home or I have delusions of grandeur you know she makes sure I put the bins out she makes sure that I'm doing my bit here cleaning up and stuff you need that at home that of, you need that sense of normality at home. My daughters, geez, I mean, you know,

there's no ears of grace in my house. They're both back home now to finish university. They're both working. And so they're supportive. They support what I'm doing. They know I'm here. If I spoke to your wife and I said to her, I said, what are you, what annoys you about Sadiq?

Because I could tell you what my girlfriend would say. She'd she said Stephen is just an hour and a half how long you got and uh it's a long list I'm sure there's a long list of stuff I mean I think I think uh because people don't get to see that the impact that being a politician has on the family at home now this is one of the things I'm super interested in with all my guests is um how they how that then impacts all the people we don't get to see. Yeah, yeah. That's right. So what I did at early stage was I involved my office. So my team in my office, a lot of them are now my best friends.

I've worked with them so long. They know Sathya and they know the kids. So simple things, you know, my team will send Sathya my diary for the week in advance. So Sathya knows what I I'm doing the nights I'm out the nights I'm in which things she'll be coming along to and so the family's involved in that at home we have uh you know on on the fridge so it tells us who's at home for walking Luna and so forth and so we've got it only works when you share what you're doing and stuff my wife's got her own you know she's got two jobs herself so it only works if you know everyone's on the same page it does not work and a lot of

my friends in politics marriage breakups a lot of my friends in the law marriage breakups you know all the sorts of problems stuff so you've got to have not just somebody who you know is supportive you're doing it but he's an active player and you're doing it. And you've got to make sure that parts of your work life are shared with your home life. There's a couple of conditions we have at home. What is the biggest friction though? That's the question I ask.

Yeah, so, I mean, we don't have much friction at home. I mean, work-life balance is an issue. You know, me missing another family event or me not being able to go to

a distant friends or relations social event, but we don't really do friction. I'm trying to think that the last time we had, it's diary management, so last Saturday, for example, I was doing something for work and then I promised to go to a party in Eastbourne, an anniversary party of a friend and then do something back in London on Sunday.

So managing that with, negotiating that with my wife and my daughters was quite a feat. You mentioned you were a lawyer for just more than a decade. I'm always, I think the word is sceptical. I said this to Matt Hancock when I spoke to him about like why politicians become politicians. You had a great job, you know, paid a lot of money. You made the decision to quit that job very abruptly

and go into politics and become ultimately a Labour MP. Why? So the sort of the qualification to that question, you're right by the way, that's all right, is it was the MP for Tooting. Yeah. So what I wasn't going to do was give up my legal career. And by the way, it wasn't just a great little career, but I had a great future ahead of me because, you know, just the two of us ran the business.

Very profitable. Gone from being, you know, a business we just employing eight people to more than 50 when I was a partner. But the opportunity came to be the MP for Tooting. Tooting I was born and raised in, literally. The MP for Tooting, a guy called Tom Cox, had been the MP my entire life. I'd never known any other MP. I'd never been inside the chamber of parliament. I didn't know any friends who were MPs. I didn't really know any friends in politics, I don't think. I was a councillor in my spare time, serving the local community. As a lawyer in my spare time, I was chair of Liberty,

human rights group, chair of legal action group, a legal aid charity group. But the opportunity came to be the MP for Tooting, and I couldn't say no because you know it was the chance to represent my community in parliament and the way I described at the time

because people were saying what are you doing why it doesn't make sense was you know I was blessed to have a good legal career

and if I won a case for my client he or she benefited or if I settled a case if the case went to one of the higher courts we'd send a president sending a president means that other people benefit from the president of the case went to one of the higher courts, we'd send a president. Sending a president means that other people benefit

from the president of the case because you've changed the law. And that's a big deal. And I was blessed to do that. But when you're in parliament and you're part of the government, you can pass legislation or amend legislation that affects millions of people.

So not just people in Tutin, but people across our city and our country. And being the MP for Tutin was why I gave up the legal career, not to be an MP for MP's sake, to be the MP for Tutin. Why does that matter to you, helping millions of people? It's public service, right? It's the ability to impact and improve people's lives. I could have, you know, when I left law school, gone and worked in the city and, you know, being a city lawyer.

But I chose to do the law that I chose to do for a variety of reasons. You know, it's important for me to be a lawyer practising, you know, discrimination law, you know, issues around police misconduct, issues around employment law, doing litigation, the sort of cases that I undertook. What motivated me was this issue of action on behalf of the underdog, being the advocate for people I grew up with who were routinely, you know, at the wrong end of the sus law, stop and search,

people I knew who were unfairly dismissed, people who, you know, I was aware of who had been discriminated against, you know, acting for the victims of miscarriages of justice. That was important to me. Why? A number of reasons. My inspiration for being a lawyer is,

have you read To Kill a Mockingbird? No. I wanted to be Atticus Finch, right? We all wanted to be Atticus Finch. And then when I was growing up, this program on TV, you're too young to remember it, called LA Law, I wanted to be this lawyer called Fuentes.

Jimmy Smith played this lawyer who was doing these really good cases. But also, I remember a number of things happened around that time where I felt helpless. The way my dad was treated in his bus garage, the bus garage was closing down, felt helpless. We couldn't do anything about it. Going on a march was fine, but you need to challenge this in the courts if you could. If you couldn't use the court system you know going on a march is fine but you need to challenge this in the courts if you could if you couldn't use the use the the court system you got to change the laws you know seeing friends treated the way they were and and i thought

it's not wrong but there's no way of helping you know people who need help and being a lawyer is a noble thing i know people i know lawyers get a bad bad rep you know uh some lawyers do earn a lot of money but people who do the law that i was doing you, some lawyers do earn a lot of money. But people who do the law that I was doing, you know, don't earn a lot of money. Some do, and I was very lucky to do well. But it's important to me, public service, to act on behalf of these people. Who acts on behalf of the person who's receiving under police misconduct? Who acts on behalf of the person who's, you know,

discriminated on the grounds of their race or gender in the in the workplace so what i got from that is your dad was i'm trying to understand the personal reasons why you chose that path which is like you know like we've all chosen our paths for for interesting reasons i think a lot of my path was defined by my own insecurities as a kid what i've heard there is your the thing about your dad's bus umot being shut down? Bus garage. Bus garage. And then there was some of your friends in your life had experienced certain types of abuse that were because of their race, but also mistreatment by the police.

That was your personal motivation. Yeah, that's right. So those are my experiences. My experience growing up was that, you know, actually life isn't always fair and you need somebody to be there to help you um and it's never been about you know it sounds you know uh frankly speaking a bit you know wankerish but it's never been about yourself making money none of my siblings have you know following followed path which is interesting

actually none of us have followed paths where it's been about, you know, making money for money's sake. It's about doing a job we enjoy and trying to give something back where you can, whether it's being a teacher, whether it's being, you know, a coach or whatever. Over the last 10 years, in your own view,

which direction do you think London has gone in in terms of, like, safety and in terms of desirability and in terms of world influence over the last let's say 10 years because it's I think it's my view that it's it's it's probably gone in a negative direction in terms of like influence safety and yeah I think generally like the respect of the of the capital and I think I mean a number of factors have contributed to that obviously the pandemic has been a big one but, I think generally like the respect of the capital. And I think a number of factors have contributed to that. Obviously the pandemic has been a big one,

but then I think generally the knife crime issue and the safety issues, and these are all things influenced by biases, right? Because I was, when I moved to London, I was burgled really badly. 3am in the morning, came in my house, stole everything. We never heard anything back from the police. There was no interest in helping us. So, but just

generally i've lived in other parts of the world you know sure sure you know lived in the middle east lived in spent time in dubai lived in new york for many many years um new york's not not necessarily safe at all but other parts of the world seem to be much safer and it's funny because when i speak to some of my um friends who've been successful in business and they talk about why they're leaving the UK it's one of the top three reasons there's always safety it's always I don't feel safe in London um before I before I before before we had this had this conversation I was listening to um Amir Khan talk about him being robbed on the high street in London coming out of a restaurant at

gunpoint you see the footballers the Arsenal players all being robbed at knife point on mopeds my girlfriend had her phone snatched out of her hand while walking. And you just think, God, it's not safe to be in London. First, I'm really sorry about your experience. I hope I wasn't too distressing. So if you look at London over the last 10 years, the last 20 years even, if you park Brexit for a second,

because we can come back to that in relation to the impact of Brexit on London. London is a global city. I don't want to go to various metrics, but we're doing incredibly well as a global city in relation to foreign direct investment, in relation to the diversity of people coming to London, in relation to the tourism to London,

in relation to retention of talent, in relation to the diversity of our economy. It's not just financial services, professional services, legal services, life sciences, higher education, culture, tech, so forth. So the underlying strengths are still there and we are doing incredibly well. We punch well above our weight in relation to the rest of the country. Because of how well we're doing, we contribute, roughly speaking, every year net to the Treasury, 42 billion pounds, and it's been going up over the period of time. So we, you know, as a slice of the national pie, contribute far more than we're supposed to, be remind

the size of our city. And that's because we've managed to attract talent and keep talent. That's why I'm here. But the reason why I might go is because it's because we've managed to attract talent and keep talent. That's why I'm here. Yeah. But the reason why I might go is because it's... Well, let me come to that in a second. And so one of the challenges we've had post-Brexit is to keep that talent here. And we can talk about some of the stuff we've done to keep it. In relation to safety, it is a fact. And I'm really sorry for your experience, genuinely, Stephen, because I meet too many people like you being the victims of crime.

But I'm afraid the bad news is since 2012 and nationally 2013 serious violence has been going up since 2013 across our country including London. London is not separate from the rest of the country in feeling the impact. Now without excusing criminality and I'm not excusing those people who burgled your house by the way and I'm not saying this with their motivation but there is a link between and crime is complex causes by the way without excusing it and I believe very simply you've got to deal with it in two ways one is to be tough on crime

more policing give them the support they need to make sure they deal with the criminals I call it a public health approach and I come to that to explain what I mean and tough on the complex causes of crime in relation to dealing with underlying causes, deprivation, poverty, alienation, inequality, and so forth. You can't escape the fact that since 2010, we've had massive austerity in this country. So there have been 21,000 fewer police officers across the country in the last 12 years. That is a fact. We've got youth clubs that have closed down,

youth centres closed down, after school clubs not taking place weekly clubs not taking place unemployment's gone uh high until very recently and so forth i'm not excusing it i'm explaining it and so uh you know when i became mayor one of the things i promised londoners i would do is to be straight with londoners about the problems in relation to, I was quite clear straight away saying, listen, these cuts have got consequences and we've got to recognise there are consequences. So I'm going to use the limited powers I have and raise council tax.

That's one lever to bring money in and use it to pay for more police officers. And I was criticised for doing so, but I had to do it because of your experience was one I'd heard too many times before. So we've paid for 1,300 more officers, not enough, but it's all I can do. There's a limit how much you can raise council tax to,

it's a regressive tax. But also use business rates money to open up youth clubs again, youth centers, employ youth workers, have summer schemes. We have now 32,000 mentors. We're going to get to 100,000 over the next two, three years. Mentors are crucial in my view. And the good news, I'm not complacent at all. And Amir Khan's experience was also awful, was the good news is we have

bucked the national trend. So across the country, homicides are going up. In London, they're going down. We've reduced homicides, knife crime, gun crime, teenage homicides, burglary since I became mayor. Nowhere near low enough because we've got to invest more in the police and invest more in the causes of crime. And when I talk about public health approach, Stephen, what I mean by that is this. Think of crime as you would a public health issue.

What would you do? You deal with the infection, you've got to kill the infection, right? More police officers, you know, got to arrest people. You've got to stop the infection spreading. Really important we stop, you know, the crime spreading, people thinking that you can be successful by being a criminal. We've got to stop it, deal with the gang, so forth. But stop the infection occurring in the first place. Stop the crime occurring in the first place. And, you know, it's a source of pride to me. We've not made the progress,

but our policies, being tough on crime, invested in the police, and we are reforming the police at the same time, but also invested in young people, is leading to the turnaround in London. And we've bucked the national trade in London. And as a global city, sorry, as a global city, you speak to, as I do regularly, the mayor of New York, the mayor of

Chicago, the mayor of LA. Those are our comparators with respect, not... Do you know what it is? I just, I would just like to feel really safe. When I go to other places, if you go to somewhere in the Middle East or Dubai or whatever it it might be you feel exceptionally safe you know so to be honest i went to indonesia i was indonesia a couple of weeks ago i was in bali i said to my girlfriend i said you could leave you could leave your wallet on the floor here and it would still be there an hour later when you come back you do that in london you know not only have you lost your wallet you probably come back you've lost your shoes or something you know like and i just there's all sorts of great charity generosity and you know

londoners aren't quite all quite like that, Stephen, to be fair. I don't think they feel safe. I don't think people feel safe in London. And more so if you're a woman or a girl. If you think you don't feel safe, one of the big challenges that we've got is making sure that women and girls feel safe. Is this all solvable, in your view?

Without a doubt. How? We saw in the 2000s, between know, the mid-naughties, huge progress made in reducing crime. And it was dealing with the two things that I said. You've got to be tough on crime, tough on the causes. You've got to invest in policing, but also invest in dealing with the causes of policing.

It definitely is solvable. We've made progress in the past. We're making progress in London now. We've got to make sure at the same time, of course, you know, we reform the police. We'll publicise issues in policing. London has got to make sure at the same time, of course, you know, we reform the police, we'll publicise issues in policing. London has got to be

the eyes and the ears. There are some amazing citizens in London who, you know, would return the wallet to you, you know, if you'd lost it

or left it around in London. We'll report something taking place. We'll come forward if they're a witness of a crime. We'll come forward

and support the police that are a victim of a crime. We'll join the police service. These problems are definitely solvable. We've done it in the past, we're doing it now. And the possibility, you know, in the not distant future of a, you know, changing government and a government that invests in public services, it's definitely solvable. On the one of the points you made there about the infection spreading, I thought was quite compelling. I was reading about the story of um i think it's har's rat wally the story of an 18 year old guy who was in twickenham was approached by a 16 year old kid ended up being stabbed to death by with an 18 eight inch knife because he got into an argument with this person and when that 16 year

old that stabbed him to death was asked he said he stabbed him because he was people in his life had been um victims of knife crime and he he thought he was scared that hazrat would have a knife himself that's the infection you're talking about yes basically what happens is um some young people that i speak to um will think the way to be safe is to carry a knife because they suspect you might be carrying a knife right and so we've got to get the message across that you know leaving it home with a knife doesn't make you more safe it makes you less safe so if you go to a primary school not a secondary school a primary school uh across the country by the way and you have a classroom of 30 people, and you say, how many of you know somebody carrying the knife? You'll be shocked the number of hands that go up

in a primary school, right? Secondary school is even higher. And so there is this belief amongst young people that carrying the knife makes you more safe, not less safe. And by the way, I went to a tough secondary school, lots of fights. Nobody even thought about to a tough secondary school, lots of fights. Nobody even thought about taking a knife to school, right,

or getting involved with knives at all. And, you know, so we've got to deal with that issue at source to make sure young people understand the dangers. So we're going into school, speaking to young people, people with credibility. You've got to have somebody who's the message carrier needs to be somebody who kids respect and will listen to, right right and so getting people to go into schools to explain the dangers sometimes it's a bereaved mum a bereaved mum can be really effective in explaining the story about

her son tends to be boys about her son and the dangers of carrying the knife so we're going to stop it at source we've also got to make sure frankly speaking that there's intelligence led stop and search because if you're carrying the knife i want you to be stopped and searched if you've got a knife taken off you i would make progress in taking knives off people which is saving lives weapon sweeps is really important but also if you're caught carrying the knife there's got to be serious sentences there's got to be a consequence of you carrying that knife but you know and that's why we've got to have these conversations that's why it's the public health approach and it is leading to you know huge reductions you know over and that's why we've got to have these conversations. That's why it's the public health approach. And it is leading to, you know, huge reductions.

You know, over the last year, we've had a 55% reduction in teenage homicides. Not enough. One is one too many. You know, a few homicides last year, then when I first became mayor. Not enough, but we're making progress. Because the investment is now starting to pay dividends in relation to youth clubs, youth work, going into schools, more police officers. There was a big drop in knife crime, wasn't there? Was it 2020, I'm going to say?

So the pandemic, we saw a reduction, a number of reasons, obviously, for three months, people, but there was a lockdown and stuff. But that progress we've carried on, but it started going on before the pandemic. We first started investing in, it's called the Young Londoners Fund in about 2018, 19, but it takes some time to get youth workers back employed, youth centres back open, and also young people starting to have these points landed on them.

It's not, there's not, you know, a light bulb moment. It's got to take time, spend time with them. That's why mentors are so important. The reason I made the point at the beginning, Stephen, about you as a role model is, you know, I'm a firm believer in you can't, you can't be if you can't see it, right? I was lucky. I was lucky that I saw at home, my mum working really hard, my dad working really hard, my big brother's working really hard. I had role models. A lot of young people haven't

got that role model at home. The youth worker is that role model. A youth worker is an amazing asset to a young person if you've not got the role model at home in relation to a big brother, a friend, somebody you can ring up, somebody to give you careers advice you know a lot of young people don't know how to put up a tie right they're not to shave can't go for a job interview those soft skills we're teaching young people now you may think why are you teaching young people those soft skills because they need those soft skills right well knife crime is up since last year though isn't it no it's gone down so basically is it knife grinds knife grinds gone down since i became mayor uh homicides gone down since I became mayor. Homicide's gone down.

Since last year? No, robbery's gone up a bit. Robbery's gone up a bit for a number of reasons. We're dealing with, yeah. That's me. Yeah. Robbery's when you're, yeah. Oh, out and about, okay.

Robbery, sorry, robbery's burgled with violence. Right. My last question on that topic is, do you think London's safe? Well, I ask that question by your answer. If you don't feel it's safe, it's not safe. Do you feel it's safe? Yeah, I do. Because my comparator isn't, with respect, Bali or Dubai.

My comparator is New York, Chicago, those cities, because we are a global city, Stephen. We're not Cheshire. But if it's not safe for you, it's not safe for me. I speak to too many women and girls. They say it's not safe. I speak to too many women in particular who say they're imposing a curfew in themselves not to go out at night time because they don't feel safe.

In that case, it's not safe. I speak to too many, you know, people who are worried about their safety. And, you know, perception is important here because it's fear of crime that you're talking about because of your experience, right? And you'll speak to your friends, and not unreasonably, they'll be apprehensive and scared. So it's a problem for me, and we've got to address it.

Women and girls, there's been a lot of talk recently about instances of police officers who have attacked, raped women and girls on the streets of London. What are you doing about that to prevent that happening going forward? So in the last few years, there's been at last publicity given to the fact that every three days across our country a woman is killed at the hands of a man every three days and that's a sobering fact

recently we've seen which is the tragic murders of sarah everard um you know zara elena you know bieber and nicole uh you, and many others, Sabina Nessa. But also we've seen people who we entrust to keep us safe, peace officers, police officers, the people we go to when we're the victims of crime, being involved in the most serious crimes possible. Sarah Everard was abducted by a man using his warrant card, raped and killed by a serving police officer. We had David Carrick, somebody who'd been a police officer for almost 20 years, we discover throughout most of his 20 years, had been a prolific sexual offender,

using the fact that he's a police officer to commit some of those crimes but also it appears there were opportunities for the police during the vetting process to find out this guy was a criminal and not just stop him being a police officer but take action against him my view that i've been making clear for a number of years now and i've been criticized for this is i think there are systemic cultural issues in the police service. One of the reasons why I ultimately lost confidence in the previous commissioner

was my lack of belief in her ability to understand this as an issue, have a plan to address this, have a plan to win back the trust and confidence of Londoners. And so we've got to make sure we have a reforming commissioner doing this job. Unless the guy at the top or the woman at the top understands the problem, how are you going to fix

it? I think the new commissioner and his deputy understand there's a problem and they've got to plan to fix it. But they're taking on board the recommendations from an outsider. You can't mark your own homework. You need somebody else to look into things, tell you how bad things are, make recommendations and follow the truth. So we got an outsider, Louise Casey, to look into what's going on in the Met Police Service. She's published an interim report. The commission has accepted all the findings.

She will now publish her final report later on this year. We need to change the rules around how police officers are employed. So if a member of your staff had a nickname, The Bastard, that would raise questions for you, right? Why is this guy's nickname amongst his colleagues, the bastard? Or other nicknames that police officers involved in this stuff have had. No action taken against them. Because it's very difficult for the commissioner and others to get rid of dodgy officers.

The regulations make it difficult. We're not asking necessarily in all cases for criminal prosecution. We're asking for those officers to be at least sacked. So we're lobbying the government to change the regulations to make it easier for the commission to get rid of dodgy officers. We've set up a hotline for people can ring in and police officers can ring in about dodgy behaviour of other officers. From City Hall, without government support, from City Hall we're investing more money in ramping up the vetting processes. This guy should have been spotted a mile away. I've also asked the commissioner, it was his idea to be fair, to go back 10 years and look at every single time a police officer has had a complaint met against them of this nature to see if any other opportunities missed with other officers.

We've also got a new unit which we're investing in, an anti-abuse and corruption unit. But my view is this, by the way. In London, we've shunned a spotlight on this, but there are other police forces around the country where, you know, I'm sure there are other issues where that spotlight's not been shunned yet. And so it's really important for us to recognise these are systemic cultural issues across our country

that demand addressing. What's been your hardest day as London mayor? There's been a few. I think Grenfell Tower. I still remember the images. I still remember the heat. I went to a lot of funerals. That summer was hard.

I'm still in touch with the families. I see them often. And whenever I see them, it comes back. But Grenfell was just... It still sticks with me because it could have been us. It's a council estate, diverse estate, lovely community. Those families will never be the same again and every time I go there and I spend time with the families

you just think at what these families are going through one family six people wiped out another 11 year old child who'd won an essay competition. And, you know, when you speak to those who were the judges, she would have gone on to being, you know, this amazing woman, lost her life in that fire.

And so 2017 was hard because we also had at the same time the awful fire at Grenfell and a number of terror attacks in London, London Bridge, Westminster Bridge, Finsbury Park. That summer was hard, you know, because I spent a lot of time, I like to, I think it's important for me to spend time with bereaved families. So when I was an MP, when I was a lawyer, I spent a lot of time with brief families, my clients. When I was an MP, there was ever a homicide in Tooting, I would meet the families, ask to meet the families. When I became mayor, I started a practice where

whenever there was a homicide in London, my office would write to the family and say, look, obviously give them my condolences, but give them my details and meet with the families. And so after Grenfell, I went to a lot of funerals, a lot of families, and those families' stories stay with you. And I'm still in contact with a lot of them.

That summer, June 2017, you referenced the London Bridge attacks as well, where I think three men in a van mounted the sidewalk, then jumped out with knives and killed, I think, eight people in total in Borough Market. When you see this happening, you're at home, right? 10pm at night, you're watching the telly, you see happening what goes on in your head so just just to reassure uh people watching so we do a lot of preparation a lot of practice a lot of planning on those sorts of things so you see you try and and you're never ready for it but you try to do what you can in advance understand it because i'm not a police officer i'm not nmo5 um i'm not counter terror but i'm the police commissioner so i need

to understand what you're doing uh so so i can understand your job and so i i've always tried to understand what you're doing so i can be at help not hindrance and so when it happens there's a lot of uncertainty in real time what's going on but the good news is our police and other partners are trained for the phrases a marauding terrorist uh there's a phrase for it uh there's training for it and and we learn from other countries when this happens so the first time this sort of uh terror tactic was used that's well known about was in delhi a number of years ago so our police have learned what's happened there and so we practice a lot of this stuff in relation to what what the firearms team will do in this situation what the police response will do what my role is going to be

where i should be and so forth and and also you've got to give assurance to londoners you can't play into the terrorist hands what does terrorist want you to do a terrorist wants to terrorize you and have panic spreading changing behavior in a way that's perverse and so forth so it's really important the response i have to a terror attack because i could inadvertently be playing into the hands of the terrorists. Where does emotion come into all of this? You're seeing, you know, carnage, you're seeing death. Is there a place for emotion in all of that? In real time, there really can't be. In real time, there can't be. And that sort of stuff. There can be when it comes to a fire in Grenfell, which, you know, which is a different sort of

thing. But because people are looking to you to provide leadership and panic doesn't isn't good leadership and so one of the reasons why you know i've asked for and we've had the practice the preparation the planning is to make sure there isn't panic and there isn't emotion because you've got to make rational decisions and provide reassurance in a cool calm way you know you can't go to a cobra meeting and be hysterical you've got to be explaining the facts, what you've ascertained, what you're going to do, what buses are going to be diverted, what tube's going to be stopped, you know, and so forth.

Another important thing in London, in that sort of context, Stephen, is we can't afford to happen these reprisals, right? People wrongly thinking every Muslim's a terrorist. We saw in America post 9-11, you know, somebody wearing a turban attacked and killed because people thought wrongly that he was involved in terrorism in 9-11. So there's that part of reassuring the community tensions as well. I guess, about you in London, really kind of mocking what you'd said. How do you feel about that? Is it, I mean, from my point of view,

it's incredibly bizarre behaviour for a world leader to be taking such a stance after such a tragedy. But how did that feel on that day, emotionally? It was odd. Let me tell you why it's odd. There's basically an understanding we have. There are certain cities and certain parts of the world are targets of terrorists because of our values, because of our way of life and so forth. And so there's a sense of solidarity.

We saw what happened in Paris. You know, we saw what happened in 9-11, right? There are other examples around the world in Manchester, the awful, you know, events of the Ariana Grande concert and so forth. And so there's always a sense of solidarity. And you'll see the awful, you know, events of the Ariana Grande concert and so forth. And so there's always a sense of solidarity. And you'll see world leaders, you know, mayors and others, sending a message of solidarity.

And it's unusual, it's exceptional, actually, for particularly our closest ally, right? Special relationship. You saw our prime minister's response to 9-11, you know, Tony Blair, George Bush. And you have Donald Trump responding the way he does. And let's be frank, you know, if the Mayor of London wasn't, you know, somebody of my background, my faith, and so forth, and he didn't have the views he had about people

of my faith and my background, he wouldn't have responded the way he did, would he? Has that played a role in how people have treated you in terms of on the other side of the aisle, people that have political views? Do you think some of, I'm reflecting now on much of what Meghan Markle said about how like the institutional, her claims about institutional racism

impacting the way she was treated by the press and by the institution itself. But when I think about you being, you know, probably Britain's most famous Muslim, you are the mayor of London. Do you believe that there has been instances, and there are just generally a bias because you are a Muslim yourself?

And how does that rear its head on like a day-to-day, month-to-month basis? Well, looking backwards, I mean, I'm sure you've read about the uh my first election campaign in 2016 right my faith was used against me by my opponents uh you know you're kind of a muslim mayor links with terrorism so forth so forth for no other reason but because of to be frank my faith right um and that's why it's so important to win because had i not won if you're an asian or a muslim or whatever you're thinking hold on a sec it's so important to win. Because had I not won, if you're an Asian or a Muslim or whatever you're thinking,

hold on a sec, it's not possible to be the mayor of London because of your faith that holds you back. And that's why winning was important for a variety of other reasons as well. But you know, the thing about our city is notwithstanding the prejudices against the religion that I practice, because a minority of terrorists do bad things using the name of Islam. This city voted for not just an ethnic minority, not just a religious minority, but the religion he belongs to is Islam. It's this thing wonderful about our city,

not just tolerating difference, respecting, embracing and celebrating it as well. But I can't escape the fact that, you know, being a Muslim, when we're living in a climate of Islamlamophobia you know has challenges as well it's not a secret so i'm not divulging any breaches of you know national security the christchurch shooter in new zealand you know referenced me in his in his diatribe the finsbury park terror terror terrorist you know referenced me uh in his terrorist attack in finsbury uh park outside uh the mosque you know i'm not giving equivalence

to donald trump in relation to terrorists but donald trump for a period of time was obsessed with me and so that leads to you go to social media some of the stuff that i get on social media right uh you go to uh some of the far-right groups some of the stuff that I get on social media, right? You go to some of the far-right groups, some of the stuff I receive there. Some of the, you know, in vertical commas, mainstream journalists who use me as clickbait, they know if they use my name,

it's going to attract traffic to their social media channels. They know that. Because you're Muslim. Of course it is, right? Because we know that there's a currency. There's a currency, right? And we know for reasons that, you're muslim but of course it is right because we know that there's a currency there's a currency right uh you know and we know for reasons that you know you know aren't fair to muslims the vast vast vast vast vast vast majority who live in the west love the west uh law abiding and so forth but the actions of a small minority means we're all labeled we're all demonized and so

i was reading the independent and they were talking about the death threats you'd received on social media you'd come out and talked about some of the comments that people had made to you calling you a um words that i probably can't even repeat and i won't repeat to be fair um but very derogatory racist uh homosexual at times terminology towards you which oftentimes included death threats and the independent had written an article showing what those those threats were have you ever felt like your safety was at risk yeah it's been a few times yeah yeah uh uh and that's one of the reasons why you know i now have police protection not because i asked for it

for a year i said no. And in the end, my wife and my chief of staff said you've got to take it. Why? Because, two reasons. Because if I'm out with my family, their personal safety is being compromised, right?

I can't have that. If I'm out with my staff working, their personal safety is being compromised and I'm not willing to take that risk either. And so, you know,

there'd be specific threats. But the problem with police protection is it means you lose your spontaneity. So, you know, I came here by tube. I'm not, you know, the police officers on the tube with me, right? You wouldn't know they were there, you know, and so forth. But they've got to be with me when I go to a restaurant,

when I go to the cinema and I'm walking my dog when I'm going in the tube, right? And so it restricts my ability to just, you know. Have you ever been genuinely worried about your safety? A couple of times, yeah. There was an occasion where, yeah, there's been a number of occasions. I probably, I don't want to give them the credit

by making them know that I was scared and worried about my safety because, you know, they all think they can do it again. But yeah, there have been occasions, even with police protection. My part team are brilliant, you know, but I've asked them to just because you know they all think they can do it again but yeah there have been occasions even with police protection uh my part team are brilliant you know but i've i've asked them to just you know keep a distance because i want i don't want them to be next to me like i mean i'm a celebrity or the prime minister you know i i like the fact that i'm a normal joe uh and i try and be as much as i i can but there have been times yeah of course they

have um uh as mayor but there have been times i've been more of a security before i was mayor you know when you know and you know that's uh and that's you know 9-11 was traumatic for a variety of reasons thousands of people lost their lives it was just awful what it did though was it gave it gave permission of people to treat all of us uh you know, in a way that I had not experienced before. So when I was growing up, the P word, the N word, the W word were sometimes used. And, you know, my white friends, black friends and me

knew that was like, we'd see the red mist and there'd be fight, right? You couldn't, yeah. But it was never about faith. And I'm not saying one is better than the other be fight, right? You couldn't, yeah. But it was never about faith. And I'm not saying one is better than the other and stuff, right? But something happened where it became about faith and the Islamophobia stuff. And there is still a great sense of solidarity

in relation to people still defend me who aren't Muslims and stuff, right? What it does is a number of things. Firstly, if you're a mum or dad and you're Muslim and your son or daughter is thinking about Korean politics or public life, you say, you know what? If someone like Sadiq Khan is getting that sort of stuff, I don't really want you to get involved in politics. Or, and this happens a lot,

if you're somebody who wants to amplify my social media or be supportive and you do it and then you get this diatribe of hate because you've done that there's two responses a nine out of ten people say i had no idea that you received that stuff how can i help one out of ten people will say you know what this is a bit too much you know i'm not i'm not gonna actually has it ever affected you personally um sleepless nights in relation to hate abuse i worry about i want to make sure my wife and kids are safe i want to make sure they're safe um at the moment i've got the you know i'm i'm lucky I've got a police protection team keeping me safe, right? But we, you know, City Hall receives threats and, you know, so we're in this ridiculous situation where because of the hatred against me, people are writing letters and emails to City Hall staff who in the previous 16 years haven't had this. We've had a mayor since 2000 and we're going to provide our

staff and this is this is not ridiculous the ridiculous place us receiving hatred but we've got a duty of care to our staff right our staff are traumatized upset all the rest of it so we now got to support our staff in ways never done before so that keeps that worries me the fact they've impacted my staff reading this stuff the emails uh reading letters that come in they met to my staff reading the social media they met to my family reading this uh stuff i'm not going to allow anybody to change my behavior i will not cower but also i will not let you know if you're bullying me that i feel it so even if i was being affected and i'm not i won't tell the guys that i'm being affected because it gives them it gives them solace it gives them comfort it means they've

won i'm not going to do that but but in this kind of medium i think there is value in sharing sharing those sharing that because people don't realize right so it's it's it's a world that we don't know so we don't care about so we don't as a society do anything about because we don't even know it exists i mean much of what you've said is news to me the fact that you're telling me your staff need i'm presuming psychological support because of the amount of abuse you're getting and at the heart of that is your your religion and your race so often other things will come into it but you just have to read just just when you get a chance you know it's not good for your mental health but when you get a chance you just have a look at some

of the stuff that that people say about me and it's not all bots by the way but has that ever infected you because i can tell you i've had abuse targeted me and it affected me and i don't mind saying that because i think it's just it's just the truth to be fair so has it ever has there ever been you know anxiety worries no no it's affected me in the sense that you know i've spoken to social media companies and others about the responsibility they have about their algorithms about you know employing staff to take this stuff off you know my staff not me have reported some of this stuff to the police and actually taking it some people have said some of this stuff because the incitement elements of it i think there are issues here about the ease with which uh social media allows people with hateful spite spiteful, racist, criminal views

to have those views amplified where they wouldn't 20 years ago. So 20 years ago, 30 years ago, so when I was growing up, right, you could only bully me if you saw me in the playground or if you saw me down the street. You could only call me names that way. You could maybe write me a letter if you knew where I lived. Now you can do it from your bedroom without even being in the same city as me, the same country as me.

Anonymously. Anonymously as well. And some of these algorithms amplify this. And some of these people have got big followings and they all jump in the bandwagon as well. And so, you know, there is a problem there in relation to how we deal with this stuff. But also, listen, it's happening to,

you speak to a girl in a secondary school. Some of the stuff she now receives, or, you know know black kids going to school now in their bedroom on social media right and so you know this is not just an issue for me i don't want anybody to feel sorry for me but it's an issue for everyone for everyone covid speaking of mental health i heard you said that during the covid period you you did suffer a little bit with your own mental health can you give me some detail on what you mean by that?

Yeah. Look, before we came in, we were talking about, you know, return to the office and stuff. And I'm somebody who, by the way, you don't realize this at the time.

So I'm somebody who I now realize thrives on working with people, being around people, uh, on company. Right. And I didn't really appreciate that until the pandemic. Uh, and I'm lucky.

I've got a decent-sized home. My daughters came home from university. My wife, we get on really well. We do. And so we can give each other space and stuff. And so I've got a garden. We've got a dog. But I realized there wasn't a light bulb moment, but I,

but hindsight, I realized I stopped shaving. You know, I, you know, I'd wear jogging bobs all day. Uh, I wasn't as communicative.

Um, of course I'd shave if I was doing, you know, morning breakfast shows or whatever. Uh, I, I, I didn't have my mojo. I'd like to think that I can inspire my team. I, I, I, you know morning breakfast shows or whatever uh i i didn't have my mojo i'd like to think that

i can inspire my team like i i've you know you don't you know it's like when you manage people right i didn't i just didn't i just there was something not quite right and i couldn't i didn't know that in real time i didn't you know i didn't but they were saying and i just and and in hindsight what i realized was that there were things i did in my normal life that gave me mental fitness and we were talking physical fitness mental fitness right and because i wasn't doing those i was suffering mental ill health now fortunately i needed to be medicalized, but it meant I had to think about the things I got to do to keep my mental health well.

And I struggled. And on hindsight, there was a period of time where I wasn't top of my game because I now am and because, you know, after a while I realized this and was taking steps to address that. And I realized I can't work from home in perpetuity. I need to be around people. I need that buzz, whether it's the banter on the tube, whether it's meeting my staff, whether it's that conversation before I go into the office, that team meeting. I didn't realize that's what helps me keep my mental health but also makes me you know be effective and

it's other things you know sport i didn't realize how important sport is to me i didn't realize not playing tennis not going for a run not playing football i didn't realize that because i thought i did that for keeping i thought i did that to keep physically fit not realizing actually it's an integral part in my mental well-being when you when you think about your your job as mayor over the last you know since you were elected mayor where where do you think you've let yourself down well that's a good question um i think i think you alluded to this early on that the seven days a week stuff. When you speak to most experts, and I speak to lots of,

I'm privileged in speaking to you, I speak to lots of people who, they say that's really important to get the balance right in relation to being fresh for the time where you've got to be on. My response is I'm on quite a lot. So I've got to use the time when I'm off

to make sure I recharge my batteries. And so I think that pace in myself, I've tried to run a marathon as a sprint. What about policies? Things you would have liked to have gotten done that you've not been able to get done? A lot of people have leveled the, you know, things like housing and will we be carbon neutral by 2030? What are the things you look at and go, do you know what, I failed there? Yeah, well, I'm not going to answer that question, honestly, when I'm running for re-election in 467 days' time, right?

Because the answer's going to be against me. But let me tell you some of the stuff we've got. We've done lots of stuff right as well as stuff we've done wrong. Is that real? Is that like a real thing where you can't tell the truth because someone might use it against you? No, see, I think the thing that I've been least effective about, and I've said this before,

is that we've not managed to persuade the government the importance of devolving more powers and resources to London. The government's... My dad used to say that, you know, you should judge somebody by the friends you keep, right? I've got a different saying, which is judge somebody by their enemies, you know? And the government don't like me, right? And so politics is the main reason.

And so the government, and I think I've sometimes not helped because of my pugilistic nature. And I worry, have London has been let down because the government see me as an enemy, not giving London the support they would give if somebody else was the mayor. And so I've tempered, you know, since I won re-election,

I've tempered some of that because I realise I can't allow my natural adversarial nature and my dislike of the government to get in the way of doing business with the government. So that's the honest answer. But by the way, I meant what I said about this. When you said tongue-in-cheek, well, can you not be honest? Yeah, because I'm still in the game, right?

So when you ask an ex-politician questions like that, they'll give you a candid answer, but you can't because it's like asking Tyson Fury, Tyson, what's the weakness in your game? What, you know, you wouldn't do that. I'm not saying I'm Tyson Fury, but I'm still at the top of my game. It's really interesting.

Part of me thinks it's an interesting game politics and all this stuff. It's not a game, it's not a game. You just said you're still in the game. I'm using your word, but it's an interesting game to and and all this it's not a game it's not a game you just said you're still in the game so i'm using your word but it's an interesting game to me because i don't feel like politicians can ever be truly themselves they can't truly speak their mind and i impart i wonder if that's actually acting against them i think there's almost this political kind of um this political i don't know philosophy or whatever where you kind of have to be a little bit cagey. You kind of have to never really answer a question.

You kind of have to get by. Yes and no. To his credit, Trump, the thing he did, and I hate to say Trump did anything well, but the thing he did, you know what you're getting with this guy. Whether it's good, bad, driven by narcissism, whatever, you have this sense that he's telling you what he thinks.

I've got at least 17 responses to that. Let me you a couple so one is which is interesting is i think trump's one of trump's tweets that he said against me was hashtag stone cold loser describing me right well he lost his re-election i didn't true right so he's a one term president Barack Obama isn't even George W Bush isn't Bill Clinton isn't he's going to try and come back and he's got a good chance I think DeSantis will probably get the Republican nomination

How do you feel about him coming back? Honestly Well I want him to come back and be beaten so I think politics the reason why I said about I'm still in the game is because it's a good metaphor because because i i you know i learn a lot from sports i love sports and stuff and a lot of leadership skills i get from sports but let me tell you why

why you're both right and wrong in relation to your observation which i think is i think is is right and it's wrong so when you're an mp i think you're right. I think most MPs have got to be inauthentic. I'll tell you why. Because in Parliament, there's something called collective responsibility. And you've got to stay in your lane for a start. So if you're a transport minister, you can really only talk about transport.

Because if I have a view about health, it will annoy the health secretary. Or if I've got a view about foreign policy or health, it will upset the foreign secretary, right? Or the budget. And so you've got to stay in your lane, which is a frustration because you've got to stand by the policies they've got in their other areas, right? So you've got to be inauthentic. But also this thing called collective responsibility. So inside the cabinet, what happens is, if there's a good, strong prime minister, there'll be an argument and discussion inside cabinet about policy

and you can have a different view. You can be honest then. But once you reach a view, when you leave the cabinet, all of you have got to defend that view and be advocates of the view. And that's why you're spot on. So, and it reminds me of being a lawyer.

I've got to say, hand on heart, there were cases I had where I didn't agree with the brief or like it, but I had to argue the case. I was a lawyer and the same goes we were mp the difference when you're the mayor or the president is you can be yourself so what's what's labor getting wrong um i think we had lots of things right to be fair come on there's not i mean i think i think you know when i think about the last two three years since k became leader, we've got a lot of things right. I think the frustration voters have, which I think is not fair, is we're not putting enough flesh in the detail, right?

And there's a reason for that, I explained. So the answer to your question, direct answer is we're not giving enough retail policy, enough reasons to vote Labour. Yes, time for change is effective, but people would say, what Labour's getting wrong is not giving details of policy. My response is, hold on a sec, you've got to peak at the right time. The general election might not be until 20 months away. So if Rachel Reeves, our Shadow Chancellor, came up with a policy on the budget, well, the economy in 20 months' time is going to be very different from the economy now. How could she honestly be asked to give a tax and spend policy now? Well, Keir Starmer announces a great policy,

the windfall levy on energy companies. Sunak nicks it, dilutes it a bit. So Sunak gets the credit, not Keir. Your best policy has been started. And so the point is, you've got to peak at the right time and the peroration has got to come in the weeks before the election.

That's interesting, because the question I asked is, what's Labour getting wrong? And you didn't answer, you didn't... I the weeks before the election. That's interesting, because the question I asked is, what's Labour getting wrong? And you didn't answer, you didn't... I didn't explain the retail part. That's the public perception of what Labour's getting wrong. I'm saying, what do you think Labour's getting wrong? But Steve, that's my point. Listen...

If you say nothing, that's fine. No, no, no, no, listen. But my point is this. There's two points to that. One is, I say this with respect and love, advice I give to care, I'd this with respect and love, you know, advice I give to key, I'd give in private,

not in public, right? That's the first thing. And secondly, there's a general election in 20 months time. And, you know, my point about, you know,

I'm still in the game, is, you know, I want to make sure that privately the views I've got about what levels are getting wrong are sorted out

before the general election rather than teleg I've got about what levels are getting wrong are sorted out before the general election, rather than telegraphing to the opposition things were getting wrong so they can, you know, using the boxing metaphor, try and knock Keir Starmer out. But that's kind of similar to what you were saying about the MPs having to kind of stay in their lane because they can't be critical of anything else that's happening around them. I get it, it's a party, I guess that's how the system works. But as a muggle who doesn't really, isn't that interested in, well, I'm interested in politics, but I'm not heavily engaged in politics. But here's your conundrum though, Stephen. And it's a good conundrum to have,

which is the next general election, probably one of two people are going to be prime minister, right? Sunak or Keir Starmer unless sunak is goes the way of list truss and bryce johnson right and so politics isn't perfection it's relativism and so you've got to choose between one of these two there's no there's nobody else it's not kirstama or perfection do you know what it is though it's gone it's the appearance of perfection right because as you said he's perfect though in our lifetime no one is but that's what i'm saying it's the appearance of it in the sense that like you can't criticize labor so i can believe me i can look i'll give you publicly i mean i mean so publicly in the last in the last two weeks i criticized labor right on brexit i believe brexit's been an unmitigated disaster right i believe uh

that uh we've got to be much closer to the eu uh and that includes by the way yes outside the eu now we are outside the eu but being members of the single market and customs union that is not labor's policy right how does labor get back in power when i was younger listen again if i'm wrong about any of this political stuff please like with my dates and stuff please forgive me but i'm just saying um when i was younger labor were in power and then since pretty much over the last 10 years labor labor haven't been back in power what's labor getting wrong why isn't it resonating with the the voters and how does labor go about fixing that so the last 100 years i mean we've only been in power for a third of that to give you an idea of you know uh you know we're not the man united of politics, you know.

And so a number of things we want to do to win back power. First, we've got to change ourselves. So we've got to, the first part of it is reorganizing labor ourselves. So internal stuff, the internal wiring is wrong, right? What's wrong with it? So this idea that anybody is successful, you know, we've got so so this idea that anybody is successful you know we're going to bash this idea that we you know that the way we fundraise for our party the way we um employ staff and fire staff this sense of you know uh nepotism and stuff there's lots of things we got wrong you know um in the last few years we got to you know we sort ourselves out include an organization

employ the right people get rid of the wrong people, have proper social media campaign, that sort of stuff, proper campaigning techniques. So the internal stuff you've got to do, the stuff you don't see, how we select candidates, all that sort of stuff, right? The second part of it is be an effective opposition. Expose the Tories and call them out

when they get things wrong. We can't rely upon the mainstream media. You know 80% of the mainstream media is supportive of the Conservative Party. It's just a fact. So we've got to be an effective opposition in calling them out and holding them to account, including stuff that would otherwise not be seen. So call them out in relation to policies on the economy. Call them out in policy in relation to health service.

Call them out in relation to policies on education. And the third part, which is the crucial part, is to show the country we've got policies to be an effective government. And that's my point about the perception is we've not done the third part yet, and my answer is holding this door 20 months to go. My point is this. I don't want to win an election because it's time for change by itself. I want you to be inspired and enthused to vote Labour because of our policy offer.

And that's your challenge back to me. So what's your, why vote Labour, right? It's interesting. I've been doing a lot of reading over the last couple of weeks because I'm writing my new book and I've spent, you know, a good 30 days in total, probably in the jungle, reading about psychology and why people, what makes people behave and act and whatever.

And the clear answer from all of that research that i've done and all the studies i went through going back almost 100 years was that people respond emotionally instead of to logic and so when you say that we need to lead with better policies and stuff it kind of goes it stands in the face of all of the psychological research I've been reading that says in fact people are illogical emotional beings that are driven by their fears and desires and when I think about politics honestly right and I'm just being completely honest I think a lot of it is actually just a very instinctive feeling about the person you know and this is why I go back to the point about authenticity and why I really struggle with politicians sometimes is they just don't feel like humans they feel like these like robots that can't say anything or can't speak their mind and i just honestly i get that my

my view with labor is if they manage to get someone in to lead the party who felt like my mate that i could i kind of related to and tell me the good and the bad and was just a bit of a normal person not a suit not super rich not whatever didn't go to eat and whatever it is I'm talking about both sides here I actually think they'd win I think from many people and Boris Johnson did win right let's look if the test was if the test was who do I want to have a cappuccino with yeah or who do or who don't want to have their government finances get us through the pandemic uh mend our relationship with Europe there's a different answer but you're right it's an emotion and so there's a great phrase right you campaign in poetry and you govern in prose because exactly it's the emotion right

yeah you know it's the the emotion is really important but my point is is we see where it's got our country where has emotion got our country And so I think actually one of the failures of politicians, and I also plead guilty, is we've lost the art to be good teachers, right? Political education is lacking in our country. And so I think a good politician should use his or her role in an unpatronizing way to educate people. You know, you asked me really good questions about crime, right?

Now, the easy thing to say, you know, just just lock them up let's arrest ourselves out of this right that placed your emotion because you want the people who burgled your home to be arrested put in prison and the keys thrown away right probably i'm just right right but actually it's my job to in a non-patriotic way try to educate you without excusing criminality but saying it's a bit more complex than that, right? Yeah. But you understand though, I sat here with- I get the emotion, I get it.

I sat here with a neuroscientist called Tali Charlotte, and she has basically written a book about this, about how the brain has a default towards listening to emotion. She actually referenced Trump. She said in that debate with the doctor, I think it was in the 2008 elections or 2012 elections, when asked about the autism vaccines, the doctor who Trump was up against in the debate referenced facts, stats, and figures. It then comes to Trump, and he tells a story about one of his mates with a big needle.

You know, he uses all of this descriptive emotional storytelling language and tally even though she knows the science around vaccines she said she was a little bit put off giving her daughter the autism vaccine after hearing trump even though she knew it was nonsense and for me that just goes to show the power of like emotion and storytelling versus the feeble influence that stats and figures i I saw it in the Brexit campaign, right? So what happened in the Brexit campaign is, is Nigel Farage and his lot put up this poster. Yeah, about the NHS and about immigrants.

No, no, the poster was a queue of Syrians giving the impression that they're going to flood our country because of the Turkey allegedly joining the European Union. And emotionally, that played to people's concerns around immigration. I mean, Brexit was a proxy of immigration, right? And so it was an emotional stuff because rationally,

it doesn't make sense if you work for Nisad in Sunderland to be voting to leave the EU because you know your boss is going to be affected by it, right? Because it's... And so I don't disagree with what you're saying.

Your analysis, I get it. It's emotion rather than rational. My point is, yes, that's true in relation to human behavior. But actually, at the same time, we've got to be explaining to people that actually, it isn't X factor. It's about who's the best person to run our country. And sometimes that person, you know, is not going to be sexy he's not going to be charismatic some sometimes he will be another a course of an election and a campaign your personality comes out because you're right personality does matter to an extent but actually you know i want our leaders to know how to you

know how you know how a balance sheet works understand what makes a business tick understands the importance of entrepreneurship job creation public services stuff i want that too it's just it just seems like deep innate in human psychology is this desire to be motivated most by our fears our desires and and our emotions versus logic and sense and maybe this is a little bit of a skewed perspective i have because i've spent the last 30 days reading about this psychology and why people are influenced but um but the thing is you listen can i just want to ask on the positive side what are you what are you most proud of um following your tenure so far as london mayor what are the things that you go to you know what we really had an impact here for

the betterment of londoners air quality is the obvious example to think of god i walked when i was walking here from the tube station i saw the ultra-low emission street uh that hackney have done really really uh well so we managed to, so you don't see this stuff. None of us sees this stuff. But if we were growing up in London in the 50s, you'd see the smog. Right? Because the power stations, you could see it. You just couldn't walk because of the smog, more than a

meter and a half. It was a killer as well. So we can't see the nitrogen dioxide, the nitrogen oxide, the particulate matter, certainly the carbon emissions. But at least to more than 4,000 premature deaths a year, at least children having stunted lungs, at least adults with a whole host of health issues, me included, asthma, premature heart disease, deaths, cancer, and so forth. We've managed to, in two years, reduce the toxic air in the centre of our city by half,

and we're improving it more across our city. Air quality is obviously a big one. Council housing. You mentioned housing. We last year, well actually the last few years, we have completed more homes in London because of our policies than any year since the 1930s. More council homes than any year since the 1970s.

More genuinely affordable homes than any year since records began. Not enough. We've got to do much more to increase supply to meet demand. Slightly shy of your goal? No, my goal is much more. So my target is 50,000, but we're not going to get there. And I've said to the government, we need more support. And actually, there's an opportunity if there's a recession coming

because of the way they counter the cyclical nature of the property market. We can have more home building, actually, and that creates jobs and people paying taxes and so forth. Look at what we've done in public transport. My first five years we froze fares, the night tube up and running. You know, we've got buses going all across London now, more buses, two million more kilometres of buses next year.

The Elizabeth Line, the Northern Line extension, Barkham Riverside extension. Look at what we talked about in relation to mentors. 100,000 young people have a mentor made progress from reducing crime invested in young people and if you're elected again what's your number one focus for London?

It's all about a future where you know we can deal with the four issues which are really important a fairer city so those who you know need need a helping i get the helping hand a safer city i think i think the perception is our city isn't safe i want to address the reality and the perception uh a greener city we've got to reduce carbon emissions i was the first global city to declare a climate emergency i've changed the net zero time from 2050

when i won't be around as the mayor, 2030, right? Will we get that? Yeah, but only a third of the powers I've got. The other two thirds, we need government support, retrofitting, building sites, so forth. The transport we've got, we're making progress there. But you think we'll get there? Yeah, and if there's a change of government

in two years' time, I hope they will be with Keira as Prime Minister, we definitely will get there. And a more prosperous city as well. I think our competitors are also our collaborators, the Paris's, the Singapore's, the Hong Kong's, the New York's, but they're our competitors as well. We've got to be more prosperous. You're 52 now, right? Yeah.

If you were to, God forbid, if you were to, if this were to be your last day, what regrets would you have about the life you've chosen to live and how you've lived it? Crikey. Maybe not work the seven days a week, maybe more time with my family. I don't think I've seen enough of the world. I've only ever lived in two. I spent three years in North London,

one year in Godalming at law school when I was in Guildford. I mean, I've seen the world as a tourist, right, but not, not, I'm not really experienced. You mentioned the long time

you spent in the jungle and stuff. I've not, I've not done that. Maybe I missed that. Got a picture here for you. That's my dad. He passed away. Was it 2000?

September the 4th, 2003. I remember it vividly it was it was the one thing in my life that's that's really knocked me sideways um and i still grieve my dad you know um and i've never got help, even though I was struggling at the time. So I think you should grieve for people you love. It should affect your mental illness. It should debilitate you. He was this amazing man, you know. This was a guy who, no airs or graces,

he'd watch the news, he'd read the papers, he would spend time with the kids. You know, he would never say no to overtime in the garage. Never say no to overtime in the garage. Thoroughly decent man. When he retired, he would spend time in the mosque. He was the muezzin. The muezzin is the guy that does the call to prayer did you

did you did you get to did you speak to him properly no that's that's a regret but we didn't we didn't get the call

you know Anissa was my oldest daughter was five when he four when he passed away Maura was two

they didn't get to know him really I didn't have the he would have loved me being a mayor he would have loved you know St Paul you know, St. Paul, you know, Southern Cathedral, the swearing in ceremony.

How old were you when he passed away? I was 33. And what I think about is I was too young when he passed. And, you know, I didn't, I was depressed at the time. I was depressed. I took, you know, sadly spotted it that I wasn't, I wasn't functioning. I threw myself, I threw myself into work into work um shortly after i ran to be the labor candidate actually because that's how i got through this uh uh time but i think about my youngest brother was only 25 when he passed and and i was and and and we've now i think since we've had kids that's that's made us much more touchy feeling talking about feelings and stuff we hug and we say i love you and stuff and we are there words unsaid to him yeah without a doubt what are those words um yeah they're between it they're between him and me to be honest but um

yeah yeah yeah we have a closing tradition on this podcast where the last guest asks a question for the next guest i'm not knowing who they're leaving it for you will know who this person is but i but i can't tell you um the question they've left is everyone gets really nervous when i get to this question i don't know why it's weird nobody cares about my questions but then when this one comes it takes people forever to answer if you could give one piece of advice to yourself at the start of your life what would it have been that's a good one um enjoy the experience why that

because often I don't know if you get to do it you're so busy you don't get to enjoy it when you speak to people who have talked teasingly about being an ex-politician they follow the memory but they don't enjoy the experience

and I remember saying I remember famous footballer Gary Neville being interviewed saying he didn't really enjoy it and I think I find that odd

you know you're not enjoying the experience and so enjoy the experience you know and actually you know when you're ambitious,

you're always trying to do the next thing, right? And I think ambition is important. It's important to have a grasp greater than your reach. But in the meantime, enjoy the experience. Have you enjoyed the experience? Loved it. I loved it. But, you know, but question,

have I savored it with my friends and family enough? Have I just been too busy and too blinkered in relation to sharing the enjoyment of the experience? And I try to do that more. So I try and include Simon and the girls more in the stuff that I do to make sure they enjoy the experience and my friends and my family and so forth. Sadiq, thank you.

Thank you for your time and thank you know, my family and so forth. Sadiq, thank you. Thank you for your time. And thank you for being here. I am, I'm very, as I said, I'm very compelled by politicians and the world of politics because it's not a world that I know necessarily well, but it's a world that I observe with great intrigue and wonder.

I'd say dissatisfaction largely, largely just because it just seems to be so far away from what I love about, I don't know, humans. Which politicians do you admire, either overseas or here? I loved Barack Obama. I thought he was great. We all love Barack Obama. Yeah, I know. He's the only one Barack Obama.

Exactly. I think because he felt incredibly human. I remember watching him cry after Sandy Hook and he just felt like a good man with a good family and good morals. And I kind of felt like he was authentic. That's a good one. Yeah, I think he's probably my number one. The problem is you set your bar so high.

I know. None of us are Barack Obama. Yeah, I know. But I think everyone has the potential to be, I mean, he's in some respects.ama's an easy one who else oh gosh i like bernie sanders as well another guy that i just i i connect with and i think he's very authentically driven um to make the world a better place um and i see that in your story as well i see you know when you hear your your upbringing your upbringing and you hear what your parents went through and your grandparents went through and that the plight of your, um, those that came before you, you see that

you can see a clear reason why sometimes I struggle with that. Sometimes I struggle to understand why people are going into politics. I think it's because of status or because they want to be famous or they want power. And, um, but, but I don't see that in you. I don't see, you know, you had a very well paid job before you chose to embark on this career path and your origin story is riddled with all the motivation one would need to pursue such a path.

So thank you. Thank you for coming here today. I wish you the very, very best on your re-election. I applaud you on the fact that knife crime has gone down since you became Mayor of London. And I would hope that by the time you leave office, the city feels a lot safer than it currently does for me. I really do hope we hit our carbon emissions targets by 2030.

I hope we're able to build more housing. And I hope London holds its status in the world as a place that people want to come live and stay long beyond their own sort of personal successes. So yeah, thank you so much. It's been a pleasure. Thanks a lot. And thanks for the kind words you said at the start.

It's very uncomfortable for me to hear that, but I appreciate it. It's important you hear that. And this is one of the things I've tried to do is, is rather than, well, it's very easy and you're very generous in your comments about me and my faith and my, my,

my background to be the only person in my position of my, who looks like me, there's only one of me, right? And the same goes for you. But what you do, which I've tried to do as well in different ways, is put down ladders for others. Right. Because there shouldn't just be one guy like you,

there should be many others like you. And the same goes in politics as well. And I meant what I said, because the interesting thing about you, and the same applies to you, you always watch what Idris elba does or resalmed or these other guys their work ethic and what worries me is somehow somebody's told young people you can get rich quick there's a shortcut to being the mayor or running the law firm or being a successful entrepreneur or being a pop star. You ever listened to what Ed Sheeran did before they became successful or Adele or Stormzy, that work ethic. And I meant what I said about you because listen, obviously there aren't many

people in your positions who look like you, let's be frank, who dress like you, who talk like you, who've got your backstory. Now you've never asked to be a role model, right? You will never meet people who look up to you. But it's a fact, right? And so I'm the mayor, right? And my job is to do this thing, what I call the London Promise. Work hard. I'll give you the helping hand.

You can be anything. And I love the way you do it with ease and make people feel, if I can do it, you can do it. And that's an art because you don't say it like, it's easy, I did it. But if I can do it, you can do it. And that's, that's, that's an art because you don't say it like it's easy. I did it. But if I can do it, you can do it, but you've got to work hard. Yeah. And I'm really happy. I'm really happy that we have a London mayor that looks like you, you know, your presence alone as London mayor is a really positive single signal to lots

of young ethnically diverse kids that are hoping to set foot in politics. And it's a real shame that you've been treated in terms of the death threats and the online abuse and such of Olga Way. But unfortunately, that seems to be the nature of, the nature of the world and social media. Hopefully we can change that. Thanks a lot. Thanks for watching!