The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett - Simon Cowell Opens Up About His Heartbreaking Loss, "losing them was the hardest thing that happened to me"!

Episode Date: June 10, 2024

From working in the post room in a record label to becoming the world’s best known music mogul, this is the Simon Cowell you don’t see on TV. Simon Cowell is a world-renowned record producer, talent scout, and music mogul. He is best known for being a judge on some of the world’s most popular TV shows including, ‘The X Factor’, ‘Britain’s Got Talent’, ‘Pop Idol’, and ‘American Idol’.  In this episode, Simon and Steven discuss topics such as, being bankrupt at 30, working his way up from the bottom, his life threatening accident, how his son’s birth changed his life, and his one and only regret about One Direction.  (00:00) Intro (00:52) Early Context (02:38) Your Parents (03:53) Your Work Ethic, Where Does That Come From (06:41) The Importance of Respect (10:23) Making the Decision to Pursue Entertainment (15:45) Working in the Post Room at a Record Label (19:24) Making His Way Up in the Music Industry (23:21) Starting a Record Label with Your Boss (28:40) Creating Your First Smash Hit Record (31:58) I Don't Know How Music Is Made, Staying in the Mind of the Consumer (39:40) Going Broke Right After Creating Your First Smash Hit (46:39) Meeting Pete Waterman, a Moment That Changed Everything (50:37) Being an Early Adopter of TV (59:50) Following Your Gut Regardless of the Criticism (01:06:30) Finding Westlife (01:09:30) Your Father Passing Away (01:17:37) Your Life Changing After Your Son, Eric, Was Born (01:23:09) Loyalty, Why It's So Important to Me (01:25:35) Setting New Work Boundaries in My New Life (01:29:15) Advice for a Young Simon Cowell (01:32:03) The Importance of Hard Work (01:34:30) Your Accident, Breaking Your Back in 3 Places (01:39:39) Going to Therapy (01:45:56) Foundational Advice for Anyone Starting Out in Their Career (01:49:39) The Importance of Legacy (01:53:02) The Rise of Bullying (01:55:02) One Direction (01:58:11) Searching for a New Boy Band (02:03:33) Harry Styles (02:05:54) AI Within the Music Industry (02:09:48) Will One Direction Get Back Together? (02:11:14) The Last Guest's Question Follow Simon:  Instagram - https://bit.ly/4c5bKK0  Twitter - https://bit.ly/3yKu9xg  Simon Cowell Launches Nationwide Hunt For Next UK Boyband Phenomenon Audition, sign up here - https://g2ul0.app.link/WnrZDXcwjKb Watch the episodes on Youtube - https://g2ul0.app.link/3kxINCANKsb   My new book! 'The 33 Laws Of Business & Life' is out now - https://smarturl.it/DOACbook  Sponsors: Linkedin Jobs: https://www.linkedin.com/doac Colgate - https://www.colgate.com/en-gb/colgate-total Uber: https://p.uber.com/creditsterms

Quick one. Just wanted to say a big thank you to three people very quickly. First people I want to say thank you to is all of you that listen to the show. Never in my wildest dreams is all I can say. Never in my wildest dreams did I think I'd start a podcast in my kitchen and that it would expand all over the world as it has done. And we've now opened our first studio in America, thanks to my very helpful team led by Jack on the production side of things. So thank you to Jack and the team for building out the new American studio. And thirdly to to Amazon Music, who when they heard that we were expanding to the United States, and I'd be recording a lot more over in the States, they put a massive billboard in Times Square for the show. So thank you so much, Amazon Music. Thank you to our team. And

thank you to all of you that listened to this show. Let's continue. It was the most devastating thing that ever happened in my life, thinking, what have I got to live for? And, um... Oh, gosh. I have to keep it up. Please welcome Simon Cowell! The scale of his success is staggering. Who's changed the landscape of television and music. Absolutely dreadful.

As a kid, you were quite naive, weren't you? Seriously naive. Trying to take on the world with a music publishing company which fails in the car park. And then you go from there to, I'm going to start my own record label at 24. I met Sunita in this club and I thought, I'm going to make a record with her. I don't know how a record's made. I can't read music, but let's just do it. The first time it flopped, second time it flopped. Even when I had the hit, I owed the bank 500,000

pounds and I'm broke. But I would rather be mocked for being different than being safe. Do you remember this single? That album hits number one. Yeah, but this was a real bittersweet time because I get a phone call, which starts with, are you sitting down? And I was on a downward spiral from that period. I became a ridiculous workaholic, working until seven o'clock in the morning, suffering from depression.

And the truth is, I still suffer from depression at times. What about One Direction? The one thing I regret about One Direction is... So, boys, if you're listening... Simon, in order to understand the man that sits with me today, what is the early context that I must know about that will help me to understand the Simon Cowell that all of us know so well?

What is that early context, the oven that you were cooked in? Well, I had a happy childhood. I was always bored, though, really bored at school. I always wanted to have a life where I would be interested and have fun. When I was told the school days are the best days of your life, I'm thinking, oh, my God, this is terrible because I hate school. So I was really determined to do something where I would be actually just having fun. That's what I kept thinking to myself. And I want to start making my own money. And one thing my parents did do when we were very, very young,

because in those days you could actually, even at the age of about seven or eight, you know, in our neighborhood, is go around to people's houses, knock on their door and say, can I wash your car? Can I mow the lawn? Because my mum and dad said, if we pay for the holiday, you've got to earn your spending money. So I'm like, fine. But I used to love it. If you got 10 quid for washing a car, I mean, it was like, bingo. It was the best feeling. You mentioned your mother there.

Can you tell me about the influence that your mother and your father, Julie and Eric, had on you? When I lost them, particularly when I lost my mum, because then it was kind of final. It was the most devastating thing that ever happened in my life. It was as bad as things could possibly be. And we just had the most amazing relationship um uh my mum was the disciplinarian i remember i must have been about four years old maybe even younger and and i remember where i was i was sitting in the car and she said something to me and she said manners maketh the man and i'm like what does that mean she goes manners make of the man and then she explained

what that meant and it's always stuck in my head because it's such an old-fashioned way of saying be polite both my parents were very kind of uh old school um they were very respectful to everyone i always remember that and i looked up to both of them and I always knew at any time I could go to them when I needed advice and they would always give me the right steer and they were always there for me. Your work ethic is renowned. Yeah. I've spoken to a lot of people in your team currently and one of the things they always described is through much of what got you to where you are today is an insane work ethic and when i say insane i mean insane with every sense of the word where does that come from because you know you said your childhood was happy and typically when someone has a pretty insane work ethic you there's some

kind of trauma at some point you know but you, I couldn't quite identify what that was. It probably comes from my dad worked for a large corporation. And before he retired, he said to me, don't work for a large company because when you're 65 or whatever, they're going to retire you and you'll never hear from them again. And that is exactly what happened to my dad. And it was heartbreaking because he did work hard. He was a very loyal person to the company he worked for. When he passed away, he didn't have any money. That's probably what made me realize, A, I don't want to be in that position. And secondly, the only way I can achieve that is by working for myself. And I always had this

crazy vision of if I work for a company and I don't get on well with the boss, he's going to probably invite me to his house and talk about golf. I just always had this in my head thinking I couldn't think of anything worse than having to suck up to a boss who doesn't like me. And the reason I kept thinking my boss would never like me is because I was so bad at school and my teachers were quite strict with me. So I thought work was probably going to be the same. So that's what drove me. And, you know, my dad also, you know, he knew, knew you know because I didn't do very well with

my exam results and he did say to me it's quite clear somebody you're not going to make university um have you made up your mind what you want to do and I said I want to do something I think in entertainment I'm not sure what and he said look you do, you're going to have to be patient because it's not going to happen overnight. If you want to do well, you've got to learn to be good at it. And it could take 20 years. It could take 30 years. But understand that.

And I'm like, I'm fine with that. And I really was fine with that. Your dad seems like a man that gave a lot of actual advice. A lot of advice that, frankly, I read your book as well, that you can still remember to this day. Because my parents taught me things, but vicariously by watching them. I can't think of a single sentence that my parents said to me that was advice. But you've got so much advice that you recite from your father,

which I think is pretty remarkable. Well, yeah. He, I mean, one of the things that always stuck in my mind and it was quite an odd thing to say to a 12 year old he said everyone in life simon has a sign on their head and it says make me feel important and i want you to think about that i'm thinking sign you know i have no idea what that means. Why do you say that? Maybe he's had a couple of drinks. And then I forget when I realized what it meant.

But boy, did that stick in my mind, which was if you want to do one in life, it's going to be a team effort and make sure you recognize every single person on that team. And so if I walk into a room, I instantly, I think pretty much from the point I understood it, is that I can walk into a room and I can see, I see everything in one moment. I see the person who's opening the door i see the person who's doing a particular job so in other words i see the room always as a team and you did that the minute you walked into this room because there was what 10 people here from the person i opened the door the person i got the coffee the people and you know take care of the cameras and you and this is rare and obviously i've done 300 of these conversations.

You went around to every single person in this room and took an interest in every single person, which is, it's not typical. Especially when you're dealing with people that have a big sort of public profile. We've had people walk in, completely ignore me for 10 minutes, sit down and text and take phone calls. Unfortunately, I've seen a lot of that as well yeah and i see an awful lot of hypocrisy which are people yes who who on the outside you know they they show one side of it i then always see that person when they're off camera and who they really are and And they are the opposite. They will just, like you said, completely ignore everybody. The worst thing is, and I had this as I was trying to get my career

started, there's nothing worse than when you're talking to somebody and as they're talking to you, they're looking for someone more important than you. I remember feeling that, you know, at an early age of my career and how that felt. And it was very demeaning. And I suppose, you know, those two stories about my mum and dad, they were really, really, really important things. And they must have known that that would mean something for me later on in life. And I've said the same thing to my son, Eric. I remember the first time I said to him, Eric, manners make us the man.

He was about two. And he's like, give me. And then he repeated it back completely wrong. I said, say it again. And then eventually, I think he must have been about four. And he was very polite to someone and I said

I'm very proud of you Eric and he went manners maketh the man daddy and I'm like you've got it they really looked at the patience trying to indoctrinate

the two year old but you turn to your father and you express that you'll pursue entertainment and music at sort of 12 how old were you when you first said that to your father i probably i was yeah i would have been about 12 ish um there was nothing i excelled in at school at all you were surrounded by music people and entertainment people where you lived i think your dad at one point worked at emi yeah he he worked for their real estate division is is that where music because i'm trying to figure out where music came from i've got this kid that's naughty not

paying attention in school i read the stories about you holding up a bus with a spud gun they called the police because you were holding up a bottle of Spud Gun. And I'm thinking, where does music come into it? Because it doesn't appear that you were playing a huge amount of musical. Well, I loved buying records. So just, you know, going into a record shop and saving up enough money to buy a single or an album was just everything. So most of my spending money would go on records.

I can vividly remember going into my bedroom with a brand new album and just loving listening to every single track on it. It was such an exciting feeling. So when you leave school and you go off and try and find your own career, you worked a few jobs. You were a trainee at Tesco, I think at one point. Well, my dad, he said, okay, you failed all your exams twice. So you're going to have to get a job, Simon. And since you're not qualified, what about Tesco's?

I don't know where that came from. I'm like, doing what? And he said, well, you know, you could end up maybe managing a store or something. And I'm like, okay. So I turned up at this interview. And I'm like, okay. So I turned up at this interview and I remember I wore jeans. And before I even sat down, the guy said, how dare you? How dare you come in here wearing jeans? And I'm like, I'm sorry. He said, well, how dare you? And I was so annoyed. I said, you know what? I'm really glad I came here because I never want to work for you or your company.

And by the way, your office looks like shit. I'm worn out. So that didn't go down well. My mum made an application for me to work for the civil service. So I was interviewed to be, I think, like a law clerk or something. And they actually had a chart which told you exactly how much money you would make at the age of 64. And I'm like, that's not going to happen. Then my dad thought I should be in the building trade and I was going to have to work at this sort of building site, whatever it was, for two years to learn everything.

And I thought, no. And then eventually I got a job as a runner at Elstree Studios. And the second I got that job, it was like, brilliant. I was so happy. And it was hard work. Why? Why was that job? You described it, I think, as a sliding doors moment in your life. Why was that job? Why was that your, up to your heart? I'd kind of worked out that how to become a director, you know, you have to become a third assistant, second assistant, first assistant, two years in editing, suites, blah, blah, blah.

And I was up for that. I thought this is something I think I would love. Unfortunately, the contract I had only lasted for two months. And the executive producer was so mean that he said after two months, well, that's it, we don't need you anymore. But the PAs liked me so much they paid for my salary. But he was so awful, this guy. Every time he would come into the building, I used to have to hide under their desks.

And he caught me one day and he said, what are you still doing here? And I said, well, nothing. He said, well, who's paying you? And I said, nobody. And he said, well, you're not allowed to be here. And he threw me out. And then I nearly got a job on,

actually I was offered a job as a runner on The Shining. They were just making that. I saw the hotel being built on the lot when I was a runner. My mum at the same time had made an application for me to work in the post room at EMI Music Publishing. You're how old at this point? I was about 17 at that point, yeah. So I had this choice of I could become a runner at a big film studio on what looked like a great movie or I could go in the post room at my music publishing. And something made me go.

And I'll tell you what it was I passed the studio where I was going to work as a runner one particular day and there was a queue of people just outside the building and I went up to someone and I said you know what's everyone queuing for and they went work I said what do you mean they said well no one here is on contract and when a new production you know happens it's pretty much first come first served and I'm thinking god this doesn't sound very reliable I don't like the idea of that so I think I'll take my chances and I'll work in the music publishing post room. When you say the post room, do you mean where the post is sent?

Yeah, literally. So it wasn't a very nice building. And it was almost like being in a garage where we were. It was definitely a basement. There were two guys who used to work. think one of them was called harry or something they were probably in their mid to late 60s and i'd turn up all cocky you know right i've got a job at the post room and i'm gonna do this and i'm gonna do that and they were like just make us a cup of Tucson and blah, blah, blah.

But it was good because I did get a chance to understand what everybody did in the company. And I think I was making £18 a week at that point. And as the months wore on, because I thought someone's going to realize I'm really talented and offer me a great job. And I literally would walk into everyone's offices pretty much every day and say, can I have a job, a better job? And there's nothing going.

I literally, even the managing director, I just walked in one day and I said, I'm Simon. Can I have a job? Because I'm really passionate. And he just threw me out of his office. Were you asking questions about the industry to those people in those offices? Always, yeah. Every time.

Every time. There were a few people who were really, really kind to me. And they explained what they did. They explained to me how music publishing worked, what they do for the writers, the catalogues, everything. So I started to get an understanding of how the music business worked. I also glimpsed some of the checks that were coming in, being in the mailroom, and my jaw dropped seeing how much Kate Bush, for instance, earned. It was like, bloody hell, if you do one of this business, there's a lot of money.

I had no idea. There's something about that in terms of career advice, because I really heard that even though you're in the post room, you're peppering people with lots of questions. Now, there's a lot of people working a lot of jobs right now who might not have understood the importance of being curious, even if you're at the very start of your career or the bottom of the proverbial ladder. But that seemed to be really pivotal because there's a lot of people that would work in a postroom and know nothing else but the postroom. But you were annoying people. I was actually, maybe in a kind of a charmingly annoying way. I was always, you know, very polite. I was very on time. I would always say, here's your mail, sir, ma'am.

Is there anything else I can do for you? And while I'm here, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And so I was sort of like the company pet. However, it did start to gall on me after a while about how little money I was making and my brother making a lot of money now being an estate agent. And I wasn't offered a job out of the mailroom. I thought it was going to happen after about a year, after 18 months, nothing. And so I said, right, nothing's happening here. I'm going to become an estate agent. he got me to work for a company called Hillya Parker May & Rowden.

Now, even by the name, you can just tell the kind of people who were there. I mean, they were just awful, awful people, really snobby, really mean, really rude. And after a month, my mum said to me, you're really unhappy, aren't you? And I said, yes, I'm really unhappy. I hate this. And then my dad knew the guy who ran EMI Music Publishing. This is where I was in the post room.

And I don't really think he connected me with my dad because my dad actually said to him, I can't believe after 18 months, he didn't give Simon at least a little promotion. He went, I didn't realize that was your son. Or so he claims. I'll never know. Anyway, the next thing is an opening suddenly arrives

and my mum i remember her face she said i've got some really exciting news for you and i said what she said i think uh there's a better job for you at emi music publishing and you've got to have an interview and it was working in the international department of EMI Music Publishing, which basically means that writers that were signed, say, in America, Germany, whatever, this department administered their copyrights. And the job that became available was a song plugger, which meant all of the hundreds of thousands, if not millions of songs they published, my job was to get other people to cover those songs so they could generate more money.

And to do that, it was quite a difficult job because it was the country music division. Now, at that point, country was not very popular in the UK. And a lot of these songs were unknown. And what made it really difficult was, is that this job was actually promised to somebody else in the company. And obviously, it got out that I got the job, because my dad helped me get the job. Forgetting the fact that I already worked there for 18 months, it just looked like I was given,

even though it paid, I think, 30 quid a week or something. It wasn't like a high paid job. And no one would talk to me for the first six months. So I'm like, it's terrible. So I locked myself into this room. And I just thought, no one's talking to me. I'm just going to listen to every one of these terrible country songs. And I listened to literally thousands and thousands of songs over six months, compiled a list, and then just went out to all the record labels, met up with as many A&R people as I could, and said, I think I've got a great song here, and it will be perfect for one of your artists.

And I did get a lot of the songs covered. Are you, what, 17, 18 years old? I was probably about about 18 19 at that point um and then uh my boss uh said i think you're really bright simon um why don't we start a company together uh and i was like it's a bit early, isn't it? I'm like 19. And he said, I've been here for 16 years. You're never going to make much money. Let's just do it. I've actually found someone to back us.

So I met these people. They owned a recording studio. I had a really, really bad feeling. And I said, I just, I don't think I can do this. It's too early. I don't even know what I'm doing at the moment, let alone run my own company. And he said, well, I think you better go and meet these people

and tell them that the answer's no. And he did it. He knew what was going to happen because I went and they persuaded me. And I knew I'd made a mistake. So we started this company. We had about £40,000 seed money. Our offices were in an NC Peak park.

I think it actually used to be a loo, our office. It was just so bad. And I'm like, oh, God, what have I done? I just got this job with EMI and now I'm working in a loo in a car park and this is not going to work. And after about 18 months, I just left. Your own company? Was it ENS? ENS, yeah.

Alison Simon, right? Yeah. But then I met somebody who was a manager who managed Hot Gossip. And he had a really cool office in South Moulton Street. And I just really liked him. He was really funny. And I said, can I work for you? And he went, doing what? I said, I want to start a record label. And he went, seriously?

And I said, well, you've got this great management company. I think I know how to make records. Let's just do it. And he went, I'll pay you £40 a week. And we agreed on £55. And I'm like, brilliant. I don't know. I just suddenly from feeling really this isn't working

to I've really got a feeling this is going to work You were quite naive, weren't you? Oh yeah, I mean seriously naive Because it's like a kid is trying to take on the world with his own music publishing company which

fails in the car park, Lou, and then he goes from there to I'm going to start my own record label at what, 20, 26, 25 years old? So you start this record label. Is that Fanfare Records? Yeah. So I met Sunita in this club, the Embassy Club,

which is a brilliant nightclub. I liked her. She liked me. And I said, oh, i run my own record label nice and i thought it's a great pickup line and she said oh i'm an artist i went really i said um have you made any demos and she said yeah so i said well can we meet again and uh and we did meet again and she did play me some demos and i said actually you've got really really good recording voice um and at the time uh there was this particular kind of uh sound, dance music, which is really becoming popular.

It was all originating from, I think, the French part of Canada, where a lot of these records were originally made. They were all breaking out of gay clubs across the UK. And I just had this idea for Sunita, which was, she was so beautiful, so much fun. And I thought, I know what I'm going to do. I'm going to make a record with her and I'm going to break it through the clubs across the UK.

And I just had this crazy idea in my head for a title and i said to this uh guy i met he hadn't had a hit before um uh this is sunita blah blah blah blah blah uh i want a record this is how i think i'm going to break it i want it to be called so macho and he looked at me like right so we made two records one was called so macho the other one was called god you've got it is the other side cruising this is the record that's it oh my god that's a great sleeve by the way it's fantastic yeah that's right so macho and cruising the problem was is the guy I was working with says to me, I'm expanding into book publishing. I'm like, okay, fine.

So he didn't really take any notice of what I was doing. And then he said to me, I've been a public company, basically wants to buy my business, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Great. I'm shutting down the record label. Are you kidding? I've just made this record. I think it's going to be a hit.

And he went, no, I'm shutting it down. And I said, what does that mean for me? He said, well, you're out of a job. And I said, look you i know you've made a lot of money you're probably going to make a ton more do me a favor would you just give me five thousand pounds i don't want a salary but with that money i will make the video i'll get it distributed blah blah blah recorded video everything he went, let me think about it. And I kept calling him over the weekend and eventually said, okay, fine,

5,000 and that's it. So I thought, okay, that I think should be enough. And that was, you know, I suppose one of the biggest turning points in my life. If he had said no at that point, I'm not sure what I would have done. What would you have done? I would have hustled it from somewhere because I really did believe in this. The minute I heard the record, I just thought, this is going to be a hit.

How did you know? I just felt it you know i i had a good i the the funny thing is when i first when i actually made my first record the uh the producer said you want to come down to the studio and i said no and he said why i said because i don't want to know how a record is made he said why he said because i want to listen to it as anybody who buys records. If I know how a record's made, it's going to sound different to me. So to this day, I don't know how a record is actually made. I don't know how it started. Does someone play a bass line or keyboard? I mean, I literally haven't got a clue. That's so strange. Because I know it would be enormous. It's like when people do magic on my shows.

I'm not the person who goes, I know how you did that. I go, I believe in magic. And I will literally make myself believe in magic. And with music, it was sort of the same thing, which is I don't want to know too much. I just I don't want to pretend that I can read music because I can't. I don't want to make myself believe that I can be a producer because I probably couldn't be a very good producer. But I think I could be a very good A&R person, which is find an artist, find them the right song, and then, you know, break the record. And it took me about a year and a half to break that record.

It was tough. I just want to pause on that, what you said there about not knowing anything about music or how a record is made. What I heard there, I guess in between the lines is you want to remain the listener and not the creator because you think it's more valuable to maintain the perspective of the consumer. Completely. A hundred percent that. I mean, you've hit the nail on the head. This is exactly that. And also, I didn't want to ever, you know, because I've met some successful producers, you know, over the years, you know, and I had this vision of, because I heard stories of A&R people who went into studios pretending they understood how to make a record and hadn't got a clue. In fact, one guy actually had literally a piece of metal, like a train track or something, literally a piece of iron, and he had it on his studio wall, and he called it the whack-o-meter because all these idiot A&R guys

used to come in yeah I don't really like the mix of the record and he'd go yeah I know exactly what you mean let me just adjust this and so he would just pull the lever down and the guys would go night and day and I couldn't think of anything more embarrassing so I've always been the first to say I don't know how our records made I can't read music um I haven't really got a clue but I think I would say I do have a good ear for a hit or a potential hit there's something really transferable to marketing I've obviously spent the last 10 years working in marketing and one of the the most passionate things I've said on stage a gazillion times to my teams is trying to get us out of the perspective of the creator and into the perspective of the person

that's going to see it out in the world. And I have to say, it is like an impossible task. Yeah. It sounds so simple. And what you're describing is what I've fought so hard to try and convey to people. Well, I think you can do that if you believe it yourself. And I did have this strong belief in myself that finally I'd found something I could do, which was make a record, you know, make a terrible video. And I mean, because obviously we used to have to physically

manufacture the records. So I didn't have a lot of credit. So I had to do a lot of deals, you know, with these people. Look, I'll pay you if you'll make me a 10 i think 10 000 was the minimum or something i mean the whole thing well i had to go through to get this record into the charts and it was all about getting into the top 40 and it took me three times first time it flopped second time it flopped and then what what I did was I said to the warehouse, I said, what is the problem?

They said, well, the record's selling, but it's not, it keeps selling, Simon, but it's not enough to get it into the 40. So I said, well, why don't we hold the order? And they said, well, we're not really supposed to do that. What does that mean? In other words, just say it's out of stock on the computer, but it's not out of stock. Just don't let them have the record when they order it.

In other words, let's build up the back orders. So we built up whatever the back order was and then all the people who'd ordered a record three months ago four months ago suddenly all these records arrived that week and it worked it got the record into the top 40 it squeezed in and i got a breaker on top of the pops and the record just exploded after that oh and here's the crazy thing is the the guy who gave me the money to run the record label goes off and merges with this company a public company and it goes bust all the public company went bust it goes bust. Oh, the public company went bust. It goes bust. And that's part of the reason why I went broke,

because all the time there was me on my own, literally with one person running the record label, and we made a lot of money on that one single. But actually, the mother company was broke um so at the time i had the hit everything suddenly crumbled at that point simultaneously so i have my first here and i'm broke i actually it's funny you say that because what we're talking about earlier, I listened to this last night and I saved it to my favorites. It's just a clip of Rick Rubin. You know Rick Rubin, right?

Yeah. Talking about music. Do you play instruments? Barely. Do you know how to work a soundboard? No. I have no technical ability and I know nothing about music. Then you must know something.

Well, I know what I like and what I don't like. And I'm decisive about what I like and what I don't like. So what are you being paid for? The confidence that I have in my taste and my ability to express what I feel has proven helpful for artists. Sounds almost like what you just said to me. Well, yeah. I mean, not many people say this, you know. Most people, you know, will say, yeah,

I know a lot about making records and this and that. That's a very different skill set, you know. My skill set, I suppose, is similar, is, you know my skill set i suppose is similar is you know fortunately you know getting it right as to what i believe people will like in whatever i do that's really what it comes down to when you said it and then when i heard rick say that i thought oh my god you can build an unbelievable career based on not being technical at something, but taste and conviction. Absolutely right. And also understand, because the one word you're going to hear all the time when you're starting off is no. It's just that word you hear over and over and over again, because are nervous and if you really really really trust

something uh because you know i'm looking at that sleeve now i cannot tell you how many times the word no was described in the breaking of that record and i i had to trust my own gut. That's all I had. I could have gone, you know what, it's over. The guy's shutting the thing down. But I really had this conviction that other people would like it. And I would take the white label into clubs and I would get the DJ to play the record and I would see the reaction. Sometimes not so good, other times amazing. And that was enough to give me that conviction, which is, yeah, this is what I call a crossover record.

It can become a big pop record. Because of circumstances heavily outside of your control, Fanfare Records collapses, owing the bank $500,000 and you're left with about five pounds in your pocket. And you move back in with your parents at 30 years old, my age? because all of us were encouraged to buy shares in this company because we were told the company was doing really, really well. So the bank manager was practically forcing me to borrow money, you know, because he said the shares are going to go up in value. And at the same time, I thought everything was just going to be wonderful. So I bought a house.

I bought a Porsche, of course. I had a gold credit card, which no one explained to me how that works in terms of the interest rates. So I'm living it up. And when it all came crashing down, yeah, I owed the bank nearly 500,000 pounds. So I had to go in and see the bank. And they had the nice guy and they had the not so nice guy. And the not so nice guy was, not so nice guy was okay where's the money right well you lent it to me you know where it's just gone and the other guy's like yeah well you know it was partly our fault and blah blah blah blah blah so I said look all I can tell you is uh if you bankrupt me I don't care uh because I don't have anything. I don't have a job. I don't have any income.

I've just got this debt. What about the Porsche? It all went, the whole lot. Even when I sold the house, I still owed money on the mortgage. So I was on paper bankrupt, yes. So I moved back in with my mum and dad. And that was really told me what great people they were because there wasn't one moment where either of them said, you know, you failed or this or that. It was like, it's a life lesson, Simon, and you'll get over it. And I managed to find a bank, amazingly, to lend me because basically I negotiated the debt down. We worked out what the interest was over the period of time, what the capital

sum was, and then I got into half that and I said, somehow, I'll pay it back cheap. So I found another bank who just backed me. I just sold myself. And I said, look, my first record I ever made went to number two, whatever it was in the chart, sold a million copies. This is what my career is going to be. What happened was out of my control. And he said, I don't know, I've got a feeling about you. I'm prepared to lend you some money to pay back the other bank,

which meant I didn't become bankrupt. So I went back to live with my mum and dad, and it was actually quite an interesting time because I remember, and I've told this story a lot, is that I had to get from a particular destination in the West End to where my parents lived. And I had about five pounds cash. And I remember thinking, it's literally all the money I've got left in the world.

And I'm not sure the five quid's going to cover the taxi ride home. And I think, I know, we just about made it. And I said, I'm sorry about the tip because I haven't got any more money. It was about 10p or something. Fortunately, I had a very, very good lawyer, a guy called Tony Russell. And I said to Tony, look, I'm not in a great place. I'd met him, actually, because he represented George Michael. And he sued me when I'd made a mega mix of, which we used to do. We used to literally get in session singers and say Kylie Minogue,

just record eight Kylie Minogue records with someone who sounded like Kylie Minogue, mix them. So we used to call them mega mixes. And they'd sell about 10,000, 20,000 copies. We used to export them all over the world. I did a wham one. We got sued by George Michael. That's how I met my lawyer because he was representing George.

And I said, I'd rather you represent me next time. And he was brilliant because he said, look, I think, Simon, weirdly, what's happened to you is the best thing that's ever happened. And I said, why? I said, I'm broke. I don't have a job. He said, but you succeeded so far, Simon, with everything you put out. Because I have had success with some other records along the way.

He said, I think you should get a label deal, which means that you own part of the company with a major label. So I'm like, okay, if you can get me one, brilliant. And we went to meet two companies on the same day, BMG and Universal. And literally that day, at the end of the day, Tony calls me. He said, I've had two calls. I went, go on. Universal has said no. I'm like, shit.

BMG has said yes. I'm like, seriously? There's a caveat got one year and within that one year you've got to sell X amount of records and I'm like I'll do it and I did and that was kind of how I got myself back up and running again by the way the other thing I should mention is I said to Tony by the way I don't have any money to pay you the lawyer I said so you know I I'm not sure I can afford you and he said well I I believe in you Simon I think one day you will end up repaying me and I'll always remember that and years later of course you know we did a lot of deals together

and of course I repaid him but I mean the fact that he was there for me at that moment I mean that was again a life-changing moment for me. There's these people throughout your story that seem to be so critical, mentors, people that were there to catch you when you fell and treated you in a pleasant way one of those as well was peter waterman you described meeting the day i met peter waterman was easily the most important day of my career you said that in your book i don't mean to be, very quickly that it was unlikely I was going to be able to sign or find singer-songwriters. So I was going to have to find artists who needed songs written for them. So I needed to find the best pop writers, you know, literally in the world. I heard this record on the radio and I just thought, wow, whoever this is, this record is brilliantly made.

And I found out it was produced by Stock Aitken and Waterman. No one had heard of them at this point. So I call up Pete and I said, hi, my name is Simon Cowell, blah, blah, blah. Can I meet you? And he went, yeah. So I went down to his studios and we met. We were sitting on these literally wooden boxes. The studio was like a real mess.

And I said, I've got this record I'm about to put out. And he put on So Macho, took it off. That's a hit. I went, yeah, I know. Will you produce a follow-up? And he went, no. I said, what do you mean no? I thought I was doing him a favor.

And he went, I'm too busy. And I said, doing what? And literally the place was falling apart. And he gave me this awful wink. He went, you'll see. And then the next three to six months, the whole Stock Aitken and Waterman explosion just happened. Because obviously Pete had been making other records in the meantime,

which no one had heard. And out of nowhere, all of his records were just hits. So I thought, okay, I've got to persuade him to write Sunita's follow-up. So I just used to turn up at his studio literally every single day and make tea, sit in the studios, blah, blah, blah. And they were so busy, they didn't really notice me. And after about a year and a half, Pete was in the studio and he turns to me and goes, why are you always here?

And I said, well, I'm trying to work out how you do it. And he went, I'm not paying you. I said, I don't want to get paid i just i want you to one day write her follow-up and a few months after that i was in my office i get a phone call i've got you hit mate and i got in a cab went down to his studio and he played me the demo of Toyboy and I thought that's going to be a gigantic record for her. Internationally as well, I could feel it. And Pete, you know, made everything...

Because Pete, again, I mean, Pete will pretend, unlike me, he'll say, oh, of course I know how to produce records, blah, blah, blah. He may do, but Pete's skill is, I've always described Pete as the best DJ in the world. He could go to any city in England at one in the morning and he would know instinctively what records to play to the audience that were in that venue and he made everything simple which is you find a great artist and you you match them

with a great pop record and that was it when you got that job at bmg one of the things that i read was that you were really focused on television, which was unusual. Television as an outlet for the music and as a distribution platform to make the music successful, which is unusual at that time to think about television. Why did you think about television? And why were you pushing that upon your bosses at BMG? I took the view, it didn't matter to me what the record was as long as it sold a lot of records. So it just occurred to me one day. I forget what it was. It might have been, I think it was the Wrestling Federation or something. Someone told me they'd sold out Wemmbley stadium you know the the american wrestlers

wwf yeah yeah in um 80 000 seats in like 27 minutes and i'm like what and so i learned a bit more about them you know they're selling everything and i'm thinking actually their fans are so crazy about them they'll buy a they'll buy an album so i met with them and i said have you ever considered doing this and they went no and i said well i'll uh pay you x as an advance i phoned up pete waterman i said how do you fancy making an album for the wrestlers I'll do it instantly he just got it and um we we got all we flew all these wrestlers over from America they all turned up as their characters it was hysterical The Undertaker Hulk Hogan you name it they were all there and uh my boss at the time was so desperate for me not to do this. She actually got down on her knees seriously and was praying and said,

look, Simon, I am begging you not to do this because it's going to be such a catastrophic failure. And I'm like, well, I'm doing it. I just don't see, don't understand why you don't get it. Have you felt like that a lot in your career, where you feel like you can see something others can't because you're thinking more from first principles there. You're thinking they sold out an arena. They have an avid fan base. We can attach music to an avid fan base equals hit. Yeah. You've summed it up very eloquently, and that is exactly it. However, and you know this, what is very straightforward to us is not straightforward to other people.

They're thinking he's gone completely mad. I mean, no, but I'm thinking, yeah, but you're not a seven-year-old boy. This is who's going to buy the record. This is somebody who's going to buy a board game or cereal with the wrestlers on it, whatever. I did it with the Power Rangers, Zig and Zag. I didn't care as long as it sold records. We did this one.

That's it it's brilliant oh my god we had so much fun doing this we really really really did um uh and you know what was interesting is actually when i made the video i i kind of turned myself into a kid again because i you sort of have to believe it for it to work you know because i i treated it as if this was a serious record the record had to be a great record doesn't this go back to what you said earlier on about being able to embody the listener-consumer? Yeah, yeah. Because your boss at the record label there was saying, no, this is not how it's done. This is not what we do here. Whereas you're thinking again from the mind of a seven-year-old

or an eight-year-old. And that's hard. Yeah, well, I didn't think, I thought logically it made a lot of sense i used to sit in these a and r depart um meetings with really really serious a and r people who would literally go bright red with anger when i would play them something like this you're making a mockery of this label and the music business is like well who? It's number one in the charts in 28 countries. I just didn't understand why people would take it so seriously.

And this sold millions and millions of copies. You sold millions of copies for a wrestling album. Yeah. Using a passionate fan base as the... And you know what? It was fun. It actually was a fun project um and when i worked um at bmg i got to know a lot of the people in who worked in the telesales department um and these were the

girls who would literally get uh orders from the record shops and i got to know all of them and they were really really fun people and uh but they they were like the back background you know but they were I used to call them the punters you know they completely got it and I always used to say if you hear of anything just let me know you know if is there a demand for something I always just I just want to know what's going on every day and one particular day uh I said anything happening this morning and they went yeah uh we're getting a lot of calls about um um something that was sung on soldier soldier last night so anyway cut a long story short. I tracked down Robson and

Jerome. And I said, Hi, I'm Simon Cowell, blah, blah, blah. I kind of got Jerome to say yes, Robson just wasn't having it. So I was like a stalker. I would not let it go. I got hold of his parents, everyone, his friends. I mean, to the point, I think I got a legal letter saying, could you stop harassing my clients? And it's like, well, when he says yes, I'll stop harassing him. And eventually he agreed to a meeting. And I'm so excited. I'm in the cab going to the meeting and I'm so excited. I'm in the cab going to the meeting

and then I suddenly went, Christ, I don't know what he looks like because I've never watched the show. What do I do? And we were meeting in this wine bar or something. So I just walk in and I'm like, hi, I'm Simon. And then this hand shot up, Robson, I'm like, hi.

And we sit down, I said, here's the deal. I'll pay you both 50,000 pounds each to go into the recording studio, lay down your vocals, and if you say no, you keep 50 grand each. And he looked at me and he went, are you serious? I went, yeah. So literally the following day, they said, right, we'll do it. Thinking we're about to make 50 grand each for a day's work. And we're never going to put the record out. So I get them in as quickly as possible.

And I get a phone call from robson i want to see you oh dear so i walk in they've laid down the vocals and i said what's the problem and he goes you are a complete c word and i went why he said because you knew exactly what was going to happen didn't you and i don't know what you're talking about. He said, yes, you do. He said, put it on. And they played me the record. And they both realized at that moment the record was going to be a hit record. And I kind of forced them into doing it.

And they were happy and angry at the same time. For two years, they were the biggest selling uh artists in the uk i mean they outsold oasis every bomb really it was absolutely i cannot tell you we had some we couldn't make enough records we sold so many records and this was this particular track was number one for i think seven or eight weeks or something yes number one i mean i think all the records went to number one. It was actually quite incredible. And that was probably the thing that really cemented this thing about my which was absolutely trust your gut, go completely in an unconventional way. And that more than anything else made me realize the Power TV.

Because also when I eventually did see the episode and I saw how it was cut and the storyline and just how everything worked and why there was such a demand for that record it was wow that's that's a great lesson but simon what about if your gut is wrong because you've worked with people that trust their gut and they're continually wrong that they just don't have it they just don't have it right yeah whether they't have it, right? Yeah. Whether they're musicians or they're A&Rs, you know, there'll be a lot of people listening now that are like, okay, Simon said, trust my taste, trust my gut, just go for it.

And then in reality, they, you know, it's a question of like self-awareness, I guess, which is difficult. Well, I can relate to what is happening to a lot of people in the music business right now, which is the frustration they must feel, which is, I'm talented, I've uploaded my music, and I'm not getting anywhere. What do I do next? And I know what that feeling is. And what I decided to do was,

why don't I go with a slightly different direction from everybody else? I don't want to be part of the herd. If I follow everyone else, I'm just going to be a sheep. I don't want to be a sheep. I'd rather be somebody slightly unusual, but successful rather than safe, cool, whatever. So I always say, particularly today, you've got to make noise amongst the noise.

And that means, you know, do your research. You know, if you're going to cover a song, don't copy the original, you know, find a song that could have been written 12 months ago but actually was written 30 years ago and rearrange the song. Do something different with it. You know, there's so many things you can do which are different to what other people are doing because that really is about getting

your first step on the ladder, which is prove that you can make some noise amongst everybody else. And I do know what that feeling of frustration felt like. However, it's also about trusting your gut as well. When you make noise amongst the noise, there's a cost. And you talked a little bit about the cost of that. It's the skepticism, it's the negativity, it's the criticism, it's the get back in line. And a lot of people, especially if they weren't rebellious kids that had a problem with authority and such, can't deal with straying from the conventional path

where other people have walked the blueprint, how things have always been done. You have to go through the thorns, through the bushes. It takes a certain type of rebel, one of which is sat in front of me, that is willing to go through the thorns in life. Yeah, and don't be afraid of what other people say about you for doing that. Because when people say it's not cool or whatever, well, who defines what is cool or what isn't cool?

You know, this is just about you, your career, your passion. And if other people, you know, mock you for being different, then I would rather be mocked for being different than being safe that would just bore me I've been called so many terrible things from serious people in the music business but it just just doesn't really matter you know did it ever bother you um is it a muscle you've had to train do you know the only thing that bothered me was, like I said, when I first tried to get my record played on Radio 1 and I saw the process and I thought, this is something I can't change.

I cannot change a stuffy old producer's mind about liking a record he knows nothing about. So I have to find a way to force that person to play the record. And the way I can do that is to get it into the charts. So I have to find a way to get it into the charts that forces them to play the record on the top 40 countdown. That's always what I had in my head. In other words, if you really, really believe in it and the conventional path isn't open to you, then you've got to go, right, then how do we navigate a slightly different path that eventually gets us what we want? Let's not go the obvious route. And I'm not going to lie,

every time I do anything new, there's always part of the thrill is it may not work. And every time I film a series, BGT, AGT, whatever I'm filming, every year there is one day where I'm like, it's over. It's over. I hate the acts. I'm bored. That's it. And then the following day, I'm like, my God, I'm bored. That's it. And then the following day, I'm like, my God, I love this show so much.

I mean, I'm so up and down like that because I can't fake how I feel. You know, when I'm bored, when I'm miserable, it really shows. And when I'm happy, then you know I'm happy. You guys may have heard our most recent news, the launch of Flight Studio, which is our brand new podcast and media technology company. As we scale this new company, we also need to scale our team. And my first port of call for hiring across Flight Studio has been LinkedIn Jobs, who are a sponsor of this podcast. We're hiring for around 30 to 60 roles right now and LinkedIn has been me and my team's go-to. The platform makes the hiring process intuitive, smooth and

super efficient. LinkedIn has helped me and my team source professionals we can't get anywhere else. Even those who aren't actually searching for jobs right now but might be open to the perfect role with us. In a given month over 70% of LinkedIn users don't visit other leading job websites they visit LinkedIn. So if you're not looking on LinkedIn you're looking in the wrong place. So today I'm giving the Diary of a CEO community a free LinkedIn job post. Head to linkedin.com slash DOAC now and let me know how you get on. Terms and conditions apply. I've got another single here. It's a single, but it's part of an album, Matt. Do you remember this one?

Oh, yeah. Westlife. So you're sort of, I think, 39 years old. And your band, Westlife, their album hits number one. Yeah. And do you know what? This is, my dad passed away right at this time as well. So this was a real bittersweet time for me because my dad,

he never knew this, but my dad was amazing at spotting hit records. You know, I would play him certain things I was making. Oh, bless you. You're afraid to have been here. Yeah. things i was making oh bless you you're afraid to have been here yeah yeah he uh when i when i first started to have some success and my records went to number one he he was so proud um and he again when i signed this band he said i think there were going to be huge for you simon really yeah and but this was a really crazy story about where how we signed the band because uh louis walsh was always calling me uh i've got the best band in the world i've got

this band in the world and that's okay louis okay i'll come to dublin i went to dublin he showcases this band i absolutely cannot bear them and i said this is never gonna work they just don't look right louis i don't think i just the answer is no i think a couple of them are okay but you're wrong i said okay fine i'm wrong but i'm not signing them and then three months later he calls me and he goes um i've taken your advice uh will you fly back i'm like okay so i fly back uh They start the showcase for me. Within 30 seconds, I said, I'm in. Done. You're here for my lawyer.

Do you want to hear any more? Nope. I can see it. They sound great. They look great. Blah, blah, blah. We signed them. And then a month later, it turns out that he has dyed one of the guy's hair blonde

to sneak back into the band uh and that's shame because when when we uh auditioned them the second time they all have blonde hair i don't know why that made a difference but uh it's a typical louis story um they still succeeded, though. They did fantastically well, yeah. And in fact, I think we still have the record of, I think it was their first seven singles went to number one, and I don't think that's ever happened again. You described that moment as bittersweet.

In your book, I read that you called home to tell your sort of family that this album had gone to number one. Yeah. And the news that you got back was that your father had passed away from a heart attack. Yeah. Yeah. I went to Germany to this big conference and, you know, I did quite a big presentation on the group

and the reaction in the room was huge. And so I also was hearing the record was really selling and I called and I could just tell something wasn't right and i think someone said to my mom don't tell simon while he's there and then i phoned back and she told me and i'm like god i can't believe it because i genuinely at that point in my life, I just believed my parents were going to live forever. I mean, it was that. And yeah, it was tough. However, I do believe in God,

and I do believe, because the hardest thing when you lose your parents is you can't even think about them afterwards because it's too difficult. You know, everything is. And then after a while, it's like when I have a question in my mind, I do talk to them in my mind. What would you do?

And I know what they would say. So I really do still believe they're with me. But that was very bittersweet moment, you know. And probably, you know, that, you know, I would have swapped everything. I'd succeeded, you know, kept him around, you know. And all the things that, you know, he taught me over the years, it all just, you know, it was the longest trip home from America. You know, that flight, it was bad. It's a credit to the man. Yeah. And, you know, like I said, look, thank God, you know,

he was very wise and he did give me a good steer. And like I said, a lot of things I still do now. I still think of what would my dad say, you know, because he only lost his temper with me once. boy when he lost it it was like i don't want to go there again but you know he he never hit me he nothing like that you know but he raised his voice once at me and that was enough you know but he was very when he was angry, you knew it. But I also, you know, I think he would have got a real kick out of seeing me on a TV show.

I know he would have just found the whole thing really, really funny. He didn't see you on a TV show? No, no, no. That came a few years later. But, you know, at least he'd seen me, you know, succeed but you know at least uh he'd seen me you know succeed you know and that meant as much to him i know as it did to me does the the purpose and the meaning of all the work you're doing change when you lose someone who was so central to um why you are where you are i'm thinking about your your the sort of immediate

people often describe they understand the nature of what their priorities should have been in their life when they experience the loss of a parent because you're right we grew up and even now it's almost like i think my parents are going to live forever yeah hasn't crossed my mind i'm living my life as if they're going to live forever yeah yeah well like i said having gone through you know which was no question in my losing you know both my parents was the hardest thing that ever happened to me but i can sit here and honestly look you in the eye now and and say because everyone says you know when you lose them you know in time it'll get better and you think no it won't and the truth is it does as long as you believe and you have to believe that their presence is still there with you and i do

genuinely believe that with my mom and dad and um oh gosh I have to give you a minute. Okay. My mom, my mom um uh you know she started to get dementia but you know fortunately you know saw eric she really wanted me to have a kid and she bought him this um brown blanket and he still has it literally everything is about the brown blanket you know it was with my brown blanket and he said to me when he was about two or three after you know she passed away he away. He just looked up at the sky one night and he said, I'm thinking about Grandpa Eric and Julie. And it was just the way he said it.

It was like, gosh, why would you say that now? And that's when I genuinely really started to believe they are still somehow with us. You know, it's not a total loss. And I think, you know, maintaining that amazing relationship with both of them you know up until the point both of them passed away they were my best friends you know i could tell them anything we could talk about anything and you know it's it's how i feel for eric you know it's just that pure love you know they just want the best for you and in in return, you feel the same about them.

And it's how I feel about Eric, you know, it's everything starts to become full circle. Thank God, you know. You described the loss of your father in your book, where you said, it put everything into perspective. All the things I thought were important, chart positions, doing showcases with the band and everything else none of it meant anything any more yeah that's true really yeah genuinely um uh i can say that because of course i I really, really enjoyed every successful moment of my career,

even when things haven't gone quite to plan. There's still a story or something to be learned from it. That combined joy versus the devastation you feel when you lose someone, it really is meaningless your life really seemed to change drastically when eric was born yes i think that's even like a bit of an understatement because yeah when i speak to your team about simon pre eric they describe a man that is a workaholic, to say the least. I was reading about you staying up till 8am in the morning

frequently to work. Yeah. Just this absolute obsession with detail and working Sunday, Saturday, calling people at all hours. True. Pre-Eric Simon. Give me a true reflection of that man if i was a fly on the wall in his life what was what was i seeing every day well i think particularly when i lost my mom

um uh i just was on a downward spiral at that point. It was like I had lost everyone. I've lost my parentless finality now. And what I said about the material things I've got, everything just meant nothing at that point. I was desperately unhappy. I wasn't particularly enjoying my work. And I just thought, you know what, I'm just going to become a vampire then. And I would work through till 7 o'clock, 8 o'clock in the morning.

I would wake up at 2 or 3 in the afternoon. And I actually got addicted to that kind of lifestyle, which was I just loved the intensity of it was almost like because of the loss I'd had, I've got to find something else to fill it. And it was I'm just going to become a ridiculous workaholic. And I was very successful, but I wasn't happy. Really, really wasn't happy. And it was like the expression, is this as good as it gets? That's how I felt. There were certain people in my life at that point giving me advice

who would just shouldn't have been in my life um and uh and then when I got the call from Lauren which starts any call which starts with are you sitting down you know what's coming next it was like are you sitting down yes well and she told me and yes it did uh uh absolutely uh change changed everything in my life i mean it made me happy again for me it was perfect because you know like i we were talking earlier on about our childhoods, you know, it was just brilliant. It's like fantastic. I remember the first time I watched Jungle Book with him

and I'm looking over and seeing the joy he had watching that movie. It was like, oh my God, I remember how I felt when I saw the Jungle Book. He saved you in many respects, didn't he? Without question. Without question. he saved you in many respects didn't he without question without question yeah i i really really had reached the point where nothing mattered even to the point where i almost can't even remember everything from that period it hit me so hard i was like because the hardest thing also was being on television as well. Because I'm like, God, I feel like a clown here, you know, because I'm dying inside. And yet, you know, I've still got to, you know, do what I'm being paid to do, you know, as best as I could.

But, you know, I put on a ton of weight uh I was eating just junk um it was like if I had got hit by a bus the following day well I'd be dead but I wasn't worried about anything like that you know was there a darkest day in that period that you recall? Yeah, the whole time was dark. Yeah. I can absolutely relate to when people reach the lowest levels you possibly can, where essentially being alive doesn't matter anymore because you just go, what have I got to live for? Did you have those thoughts? Yeah, yeah. I'm not thinking I want to take my own life,

but thinking if something terrible happened, it wouldn't bother me, you know, to myself. What I have learned, fortunately, is unfortunately we are all going to go through this and it's how we cope with it. And being able to talk about it, you know. unfortunately, we are all going to go through this. It's how we cope with it. And being able to talk about it. I mean, I've spoken publicly about mental health,

particularly men's mental health, because there's no question. I do still suffer from depression at times. I've really suffered from depression in the past. I am actually very thin-skinned at times, particularly when someone is disloyal. You know, I take things like that very, very badly. I noticed this because I read, it's interesting, I was reading loads of articles and loads of things trying to try and understand obviously doing all this research and

the word loyalty came up over and over and over again as something you would say sometimes in interviews as being really critically important to you yeah i was thinking why is of all the people i've interviewed why is loyalty the word that he uses when he describes artists he's worked with and bands and very right louis walsh yeah i watched an interview where louis walsh said um the thing simon loves about me is i'm loyal yeah um uh because of um you know a lot of what we spoke about today, my upbringing, my working life, nothing was ever handed to me on a plate. But when people took the time, like Pete Waterman, there have been, fortunately, a lot of people over the years

who've been amazing have come in and helped me achieve because I could never have done what I did without, you know, the people who worked with me over the years. I've just been very lucky in the main. Ninety nine percent of the people have been just fantastic. However, I, yeah, I take it really badly when someone who you consider to be a friend rewrites the narrative afterwards and they become, because things haven't worked out for themselves, they have to blame somebody else. And it's like, but we're all in that position, you know. There's certain things I can't talk, I would talk to you. Privately, yeah. Privately about why that particular time some other people I was working with. Look, again, on the bright side, as long as you're happy today, which I am, thank God, and I'm at peace today, thank God, then a lot of the bad things that happened previously, it's like, well, that's your destiny.

If the lights had been red instead of green on a certain day, Eric may not have been conceived. And that's how I look at life, you know. Your new work-life balance, I find it quite interesting. You've put a lot of sort of parameters and boundaries in place with this new post-Eric Simon Cowell, some of which are, you know, you don't work Fridays. I read that.

Not really, no. Not really, okay. You don't engage in emails after I read that. Not really, no. Not really? Okay. You don't engage in emails after sort of 5.30, 6pm, really? Never. Interesting. Never. Do you have social media?

I have it, but I don't look at it. Okay. So how do you stay away when you log on your phone? Well, you know, I don't have a phone. You don't have a phone at all well i have a car phone which i occasionally use um which is actually an american phone and i swear i don't even know how to use it you don't have a mobile phone uh i have one that sits in the car okay uh nine times out of ten um i'll use somebody else's phone because I don't even know how to work anymore. I hate them

so much. Because I'll tell you why. I think they're boring. It's almost like, for me, it's like having a toaster with you all the time. It's like, it's a toaster. And a phone is just as boring. You know, it's like toast is nice and occasionally a telephone call is nice, but not all the bloody time. When did you make that decision to get rid of your phone? When I realized by not being on it for about three or four months a year, I was happy at that time. And then when it was like, oh God, it's time to turn my phone back on,

I started to dread it. And then one day I thought I'd lost it. And it's, oh, God, I've lost my life. And it's, oh, stop being so dramatic. It's a stupid telephone. I don't use 99% of the things on it. And I actually really like talking with people like we're talking now i like meeting people and i like talking from a landline if i have to because the sounds nicer as well i think people would be

pretty shocked to hear that simon cowell doesn't have a phone because you've got this like business empire you have to run you've got all these people these artists these tv you know all these things how do you navigate like my i'd have some like i'd have like an existential crisis if someone told me that i had to get rid of my phone because i think well my business is going to crumble or or obviously it depends what what you do um so what i do weirdly it kind of helps because um you hear about the important things in life. You don't hear about the unimportant things. And that's the best way, I suppose,

describing the advantages. So when something really serious happens, within seconds, you'll hear about it. When it's just some piece of gossip or something, which I'm really not interested in, and someone said, did you hear about so-and-so? It's like, no, which I'm really not interested in and someone said did you hear about so-and-so it's like no and I'm not interested because I'm not so if someone has to get hold of you how do they contact you I always say honestly if you want to get hold of me and you know me

you'll you'll get hold of me you just will promise you really will you will get hold of me you just will promise you really will you will get a hold of me um uh like obviously you know i i have um a pa um i have a partner um i have friends um how does she get hold of you uh she calls me at home and i mean drives her crazy but uh what would you say to the workaholics out there including me that i haven't quite yet had life teach us the hard way oh my god i don't know where to start like what would you say to sim Simon at 31 years old, which is how old I am? where your gut is telling you this isn't worth the effort. But your ego is sort of saying, but it's your idea, so it must work. There are always going to be moments where you have made the wrong decision. And sometimes it's bailing out earlier than you should, rather than just, let's just hang on to that.

Or also understanding that certainly when you're doing something creative, I believe that you can only really be creative when you're not tired. I'm certainly at my best when I've slept well, I'm feeling fit, I'm feeling happy, then I'm in a completely different mindset. You know, I would, because I still see each episode before it goes out about three or four times. So don't forget these episodes are about the length of a movie. So I'm watching the equivalent of two movies a week every second, every sound cue, every audience shot.

I mean, it's the focus you've got to give it. It's unbelievable. So I think I would have said, you know what, Simon, why don't you enjoy what you're doing a little bit more? Is the fifth day going to really make a difference if you're working better on the four days? It's not really going to make any difference, is the truth. By the way, it's much more fun having a three-day weekend

than a two-day weekend. And it's just stuff like that, I suppose. Did you used to think that if other people weren't working at the same tenacity as you, they weren't as interested? Because I'm thinking about how you now interact with the people you work with. If back then you're working till 8am in the morning, I imagine you're dragging a lot of people with you. Yes, I was.

Yes, I was. Great laugh. It's so funny. yeah i i i did drag a few people along with me um and i apologize um having said that one thing you can't escape is that to be good at anything you've got to put the hours in it is hard work i mean look yes people win the. You hear about these crazy success stories, but they are one in literally a billion. I mean, for me, the majority of people I've met who haven't inherited anything, but have just built something on their own. They've done it because they're talented. They've got great instincts. And importantly, they have really, really put the hours in uh because if somebody

you know comes to work for me at say 21 years old and says you know 5 30 right i'm off and don't bother calling me on the weekend i'm gonna go well i i'm not gonna bet the house on you you know uh i when i was younger genuinely i didn't even think about weekends it was like um when I was younger, genuinely, I didn't even think about weekends. It was like when I was a runner, you know, I would do 18-hour days and loved every second of it because for every day I was doing it, I was learning something more. And then I think, you know, there is a point where when hopefully you realize that you've kind of got your groove, you know what you're doing, you're being successful, you've got a good team around you. Then I think it's a question of, okay, well, then don't kill yourself in the process.

I mean, seriously, find, and this is, you know, going back to phones, you know, which is, and I'm the same with emails, is even if it's great news and you get the news at 7, 8 o'clock at night, you can't just go, right, I'm going to sleep now because your brain's going to go into overdrive. And I think, you know, getting good sleep is crucial, absolutely crucial. You hear about these people who survive from four hours sleep at night. I'm like, how? You know, I need like 10 hours if possible.

I really believe that sleep is the best medicine your body can have and the ability to be able to sleep peacefully, you know, that's really, really important. Imagine if old Simon had you say that. He'd be like, yeah, right. You said don't kill yourself in the process, but 2020, you had a very very serious accident yeah which was unfortunately at the time of the pandemic so we're all trapped inside anyway you

were on a electric motorbike where you had an accident and broke your back in three places you had a very intense six-hour surgery which included having a metal rod put into your back to stabilize it um and according to all the accounts that i've heard you were very lucky to be alive yeah yeah yeah actually yeah uh it was pretty bad um i think that's an understatement what i've heard uh again there is a silver lining because I wasn't fit. I thought I was fit. I looked okay, but I wasn't fit. I was really getting up.

Even though I changed my hours, I was still getting up, going straight to the telephone, and I would sit by that telephone for hours and hours and hours. And I really wasn't getting the steps in. I wasn't eating properly and all this kind of stuff um so once i um you know i i it was a bad accident and i knew it was bad the second it happened uh and and the recovery was pretty difficult however the i had a fantastic nurse and she literally, she was like, you know, how a cuckoo just pushes the bird out.

She just one day said to me, just get out into your garden. You can walk 20 spaces. Just do it. And I did it, and it was hard. And then I just built up, built up, built up, and then I started to build up my step count over time. And then when I really had to put the proper steps in a day, my feet were just like ragged because they weren't used to walking.

So it was weird. If I had to go back in time again to get to where I am today, I would have gone through that again. As bad as it was, the upside was worth it. Because if I hadn't broken my back, I don't think I would have ever realised how unfit I really, really was. You spoke about, because the pandemic is an interesting time to have a debilitating injury like that,

because you're trapped inside as it is. When you have a back injury or any severe injury like that, you're immobilized. Yeah. And all of this has a really significant impact on your mental health. Because I've sat here with people who have had a back injury, like Craig David. I remember him telling me the darkest depression he had in his life was when he injured his back and couldn't move much anymore. Yeah.

And how that has a knock-on effect of all things. But you have the pandemic as well which is keeping you indoors and i heard you were you're in inside for a long period of time because of that injury because of the pandemic um you stayed in your your house there for a long time was it almost a year or something crazy yeah what was if i was a fly on the wall in in that house during that time what would i have seen well again the hard really the hardest thing was uh uh because you know the guy had to it got so bad i had to sign a form you know just before i had the operation which was you know if this doesn't work out, will you allow us to switch the machine? I'm like, well, that's encouraging, just before I'm about to go under. So I'm thinking, oh, this could be it.

But I was in so much pain. I was just thinking, just please, please, just get me out of this pain. And the first three days afterwards i was like actually it's painful but not as bad as i thought and the doctor said yeah you've got pain receptors in your spine right now they're going to wear off in a couple of days get ready and when they wore off, it was like, whoa, it was unbelievable. And then I'm on all these pain-healing drugs, blah, blah, blah. And do you know what I'm doing? I'm phoning my lawyer saying, where's my will?

And then I'm also trying to sell a show at the same time. Unfortunately, my PA knew I was just all over the place. And she was saying, yeah, the person you're trying to get hold of isn't available right now. But you know, obviously, I was just so delirious. I was just all over the place for the first three days. Because after a traumatic injury like that, you are. But I had a fantastic surgeon. I really got off the painkillers much earlier than they thought I would, like a month earlier. And that was, for me, really significant. And then when I started to put the steps in

and getting up to 20,000, 30,000 steps a day without my feet falling apart, it was like actually it was worth it, genuinely worth it. Is this when you first went to therapy, around this time? It was, yeah. And I think it was probably because after that injury and all the time I'd had to think about things, I really had a chance to kind of really think things through and go, it would be actually crazy for me not to go to therapy after everything

I've gone through and talk to somebody who is an expert, who you can trust, who can advise you. And it's a bit like really going to the gym. You know, it's like, wow, you feel great afterwards. And it's, you know, you think initially, oh, it's going to be embarrassing. How do I start the conversation? But they're so good and they're so well trained at what they do. It gave me,

I don't know, it just made me feel better in so many ways because stuff that used to bother me, I would talk to them about and you almost kind of get the answer, you know it's going to be, but someone needs to tell you other than yourself if that makes sense yeah you know the answer but you kind of need someone to validate it yeah um did you go to the i've been to therapy i've also been to therapy with my partner do couples therapy yeah i've done that which is really useful yeah my god ours would make the best reality show on the planet seriously um what was the when you went to the therapist was it because of how you were feeling following the the back injury and the pandemic or was it just more broadly that you hadn't processed

a lot of things throughout the last couple of decades was there a specific issue you went with that's a good question i i think i i met a met a few people who were in the entertainment business, and we spoke a lot about how do you deal with this, how do you deal with that. And two people in particular said, we went into therapy. And they said, have you tried it? And I went, no. They said, try it once, see how you feel.

And when I went, it was very interesting because what you realize is that most of us have actually bottled stuff up, you know, somewhere in our bodies. And it's like a release. And we all need that release because there's something in your brain which you haven't spoken about or something that's bothered you and you don't know who to talk about or whatever, whatever, whatever. And actually, it's not a weakness. If anything, it's a strength to be able to admit that we are all vulnerable, that none of us are perfect, that we do need help, and there are people much smarter than us who can just help you. And why not take advantage of that? Because I promise you, I don't believe there's a single person in the world

who would go to a great therapist and then walk out and go, yeah, I didn't need that. But we all do, right? In the same way we're discovering things about nutrition and you know food and the importance of that and you know a lot of what we were talking about social media and some of the negativities all these things you know we we're not programmed i don't believe to deal with so much so so quickly So we've got to find, you know, different ways of not just sorting your bodies out, but sorting your mental, you know, it's not even mental health.

It's just life, you know. It's that, you know, just having someone who's trained to to to give you better priorities other things to think about things you don't have forgotten about all those kind of things i learned through doing it has it had a big impact on you massive yeah massive yeah and in fact i i got out the habit only because of my schedule and i'm due due back, I think, in about two or three weeks' time. And I literally can't wait because I really do think I found someone special. His name's Justin. If he's listening, Justin, you are the best.

I adore you. And I consider him you know a friend i i really really like him and respect him sometimes we don't get to say to people how much we appreciate them and all the impact we've had on them until they're gone because especially as men sometimes we can be a little well i'm just speaking for myself here i can can feel a little bit, I think how I was raised, a little bit about expressing my emotions sometimes. So Justin, for example, what would you say to Justin in terms of how he's helped you if he was listening?

I think he, if we had a list of what's the most important things, the top 10 list of priorities, he's changed the order of what would have been my one to ten. He's shuffled the order. So something that might have been number eight might have become number three now. And he's simplified my way of thinking, which is he said to me, Simon, I think you actually

overthink a lot of things, by the way. And I'm like, actually, you've got a point, I do, actually. And a lot of what, you know, we've been talking about today, a lot of this has come from working with Justin. And, and like I said, having absolute no embarrassment whatsoever about the fact that I needed it. I think, like I said, a lot of people, in my opinion, do need help full stop at some point in their lives. And it is nothing to be embarrassed about it isn't eric comes to you and says dad you've built an incredible business you've been incredibly

successful dad i need some advice i want to be successful in my career too i'm planning on doing something special which i don't know what what it is yet dad but i want to be successful in when i go into the professional world what do advice would you give me, Dad, based on the career you've had? What are those foundations, those fundamentals? I'm going to say to him, be good at what you do, and therefore be patient and learn. And the learning and the getting there is as enjoyable as being there, because in my opinion, it is having gone through both sides. I've been at my happiest when I'm broke. I've been at my unhappiest at times when I've been wealthy and I've also been happy when I've been successful. The most important thing is on a Sunday night, you want that feeling of excitement that Monday is coming and it's something to look forward to. And that this is what we're

supposed to do in our lives is do something which we enjoy and it's not a question of having more than other people or less it's irrelevant there's always people who are less than you and more than you that's not really the the measure of of of your happiness. Your happiness stems from achieving something, believing in something, and just loving what you do. I'm very lucky because I still love what I do. I mean, yes, there are times I'm like, God, this is a long day today, or it hasn't been a great day, but overall, I pinch myself still because I'm fortunate enough that I am able to do something which I really, really love doing.

I love creating things. I love thinking of things. And I also like the idea that somehow I'll make it happen. And even if it takes me 10 years, if I still have that strong belief, somehow I'll try and make it happen. And if it doesn't quite work out, at least I can say, well, I gave it a shot. I'd also say to him, don't blame other people if it doesn't work out. You know, you have to trust your instincts

and you have to have a strong work ethic um but enjoy that and that's why you know as i said finding something which you're passionate about is is for me it's the most important thing more than anything else and because like i you know, going back to the time when I was in the post room and an estate agent, you know, I loved being in the mail room a thousand times more than being an estate agent. It just, you know, it was a great example, you know. When I, you know, changed jobs to make more money,

it actually made me more unhappy because I didn't like the people, I hated the job. I don't want to say all estate agents are bad, by the way. This particular company at the time, and it might be right now, were awful then. But that's what I think I would say to anyone I like or didn't like, find your passion and then try and be the best at it. Legacy.

Legacy, yeah. That's been front of mind for you recently, hasn't it? Yeah, it is a lot, yeah. And to your point, when we're doing something like this or something I've made in the past, I'm always aware. Or if I'm editing a clip on a great contestant, I'm very aware that that is their legacy as well. And I want to make that clip like perfection in my mind, you know.

I want every second of it to be beautiful and cinematic, you know, because they live on life online forever, these clips now. But, yeah, legacy is, I think about this a lot, definitely. And I think somewhere I read, it was a great quote about, I'm going to say this really badly, but it's along the lines of, if you live your life with your eyes open wide enough, you will eventually find the person you're looking for, i.e. my Pete Waterman. Because don't think, certainly when you're younger, that you've got all the smarts to do it yourself. You know, being smart is finding the person who is smarter than you, who is willing to take you under their wing. But to get that person to take you under their wing, you've got to show them, i'm prepared to put the work in as well and if you could paint the picture of your own legacy the legacy that eric will remember of simon cowell what was what is that legacy that you would like to leave him with and i guess the world with? Oh, well, I think I like people.

I mean, I genuinely like people. I remember being about six years old and seeing somebody, I think it was the Ideal Home exhibition, and I went, oh, my God, it's so-and-so. I'm completely starstruck, and I i went oh my god it's so and so i'm completely starstruck and i just went over hi can i have your autograph and he went no and i was like i was destroyed and and i i i have never ever said no to somebody it drives drives Lauren and even Eric sometimes crazy because I don't care in the middle of dinner or whatever I'm doing. If someone wants a picture, an autograph, I'll always say yes

because I take it as a compliment, you know, because they've watched something I've made. And I also know in reverse what it feels like if someone's rude to you. Because if you don't like people, you can't do this job. So I hope my legacy will be that, you know, I kind of achieved everything, you know, without a head start. And I've treated people well. That's what I would like to think I'll hand over to Eric, both of those things. Although you have changed your life in many ways,

pretty extreme ways, very extreme ways, from the sort of the pre-Eric Simon to the post-Eric Simon, who has put boundaries and balance in place and is focusing more, you know, you talked about that priority list of 10 things with your therapist. It's quite clear in everything I've read that number one priority right now is the family.

Yeah. And everything is secondary to that. That's accurate, right? Yeah, yeah, it is. But I think what concerns me a lot at the moment is, and I hope things are going to change, is that I do see bullying on the rise. And I think that is partly due,

well, actually a lot to do with social media. I do see, unfortunately, people unhappy because they think they need material things in their life to make them happy. And look, of course, it's better to have money than not, but it's not everything. And, you know, like I said, I can genuinely say that because I've experienced both.

I preferred it when I had money, but it wasn't the end of the world when I didn't, you know. And so I just, I get sad a lot of the times when I think about people who think, well, you know, I'm not great at school, so what am I going to do with my life? Or I need everything by the age of 21, or blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. It's like, actually, you know what? It doesn't have to be that way. You know, if you really, really do have the patience,

and like I said, you might have a friend who's got a more flashier job and blah, blah, blah. But if you're in it for the long haul, you're going to be better off at the end. It's trying to get that message to people. I was just thinking then about One Direction. In fact, I'm friends with some of the boys, I say some of the boys, one of the boys from One Direction.

How do you make them ambitious but at the same time not lose their mind because because i sat with liam and he was he was on the podcast and he's he talked about his struggles struggling with all of these things that the change in his life we all wish and dream for that yeah but then the reality is something that no one can be prepared for yeah the brain is not set up in such a way to deal with that amount of hysteria around you. So has your thoughts around this changed or evolved based on your own experiences as Simon and the things you've been through? Well, personally, I think it's better to have success than not. Yeah.

What is great, I mean, what I said to the boys, and, you know, it was quite obvious, you know, once they were on the show, they were going to be really, really successful with the right records. I mean, they just, for me, they were like the perfect group. Are they the most successful artist you've ever developed oh gosh I actually don't

know the answer to that no I mean I know they were very successful they sold a lot of records and they made a lot of money I said to them a lot of what we're talking about which is don't ever complain about paparazzi because they are going to take your pictures.

Don't complain about invasion of privacy because people are going to always want a picture taken with you. Don't complain about the long hours because there are going to be long hours. So if none of this, if any of this is a problem, just do something else. I mean, because I promise you, all of this is going to come with it. There'll be times where you're going to go, my God, this is a grueling schedule. And oh my God, can't someone just leave me alone for one minute because I want to have my dinner? Why are you taking my picture? That is going to come with the territory. And the truth is, it's worth it. It's a very, very, very, it's not even a price debate. It just comes with it. It's hard work. You are going to become well known.

And you are going to lose a lot of your privacy. If you want to be an accountant, you're not going to have any of those issues. It just won't be as much fun. So, you know, some people want to be accountants, some people want a more exciting life. I've always been a huge fan of bands because it's a much easier way. First of all all i think it's more fun being in a band than being a solo artist yeah uh particularly if you like your bandmates um it's a brilliant way

to get noticed if you want to become a successful solo artist like they've all become and being in the band was the catalyst to that you know I'm about to do it again this year. Yes, I heard about this. You're searching for another boy band. Yeah, and I'm doing it because, you know, right now there isn't, I don't think, a band who has been as good as One Direction since One Direction, in my opinion.

And if you look at the amount of solo artists versus bands right now in the world in pop music, it is unbelievable. I mean, if you think of Motown and that whole era, it was as many bands as there were solo artists. So something has gone amiss and the only way i know to put a band together is somebody has to audition them so we just thought you know what if i don't do it this year i'm going to really regret it So let's just do it. And we're going to document the whole process. So this time, you're going to see exactly what happens from the minute we go,

we're going to do it to how you logistically do it. How do you choose the people, blah, blah, blah, because I think it will be interesting interesting and and but there's no safety blanket on this in terms of i haven't gone to a record label and go and say right i'm doing this will you guarantee me a record deal i've got to hope that the band are good enough to get a record deal what's the secret sauce people i mean it is personality i mean i think that's the secret sauce? People. I mean, it is personality. I mean, I think that's the one thing about One Direction is they all had great personalities and they were just interesting people.

And the first time I saw them as a band, after we asked them to be in a band, I was in Spain and I saw them walking up the beach. And as they're walking up the beach, everyone's looking around. No one had ever heard of them at this point. And I thought, it's unbelievable. Everyone's looking at these five boys as if they're already stars. And there was just this glow about them.

And because, you know, I've had hits with bands, I've had misses with bands. And it could be that I was 1% off or I was 80% off. I don't know. But when it doesn't work, there's no money in the world that will make something that isn't going to work work. It's just one of those things. You've just got to hope you get lucky and find the right people.

Have you got better at it? I don't know. I don't know. It could be that I'm completely useless now. All I know is if I had to trust anyone to do it, I would trust me more than anyone else. I would. And are you waiting for a feeling?

Is it like, or is there like some kind of data in AI and some Excel spreadsheet that ranks them based on, you know, these things? Is it a feeling? Yeah, it has to be. And this is the difficulty, is that you are selling an act to somebody who I'm not. You know, your fans are going to be primarily teenagers.

So you've kind of got to guess what that audience are going to like. But don't overthink it because I've seen a lot of people, particularly recently, put bands together and they walk out and within one second, I'm thinking all of this is wrong. I can tell that someone's told them what to wear. I know what their spiel is going to be. It's all rehearsed, nothing spontaneous. And I'm thinking, why does that person, whoever's behind the scenes, why can't they let them just be themselves? That's why I said to One Direction, which is, look,

I can just give you a broad kind of over, like I said, this is what's going to probably happen when you're successful. And then after a few years, you're going to want to leave the band, that's going to happen and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, no, no, we're going to be friends forever. So yeah, whatever. Do what you like. And that was sort of it. I just said, look, when you've got a problem, come to me. It's really down to you to make this work. You've got to love the records you make. You've got to influence the records you make. You can't dance, so don't try and dance. Don't ever hire a stylist because you've already got great taste and just be yourselves and most

and really really have fun because they're like I said there will be days where you're gonna go oh god I'm really tired I don't like this and you know no one will leave me alone and then in 10 years time you're gonna look back on this and go wow we had a blast could you have predicted i know all the boys have done really well in their own endeavors but harry has become well he still is a megastar and often with boy bands once they break up you know they're kind of some of them fizzle out and whatever but harry seems to have just taken on you know he's really managed to find his own groove, it appears. I always, I'm not going to lie. I mean, the first time I met Harry, he sang a Stevie Wonder song.

We spoke about pies. So I'm not sitting there thinking you're going to become one of the most successful artists in the world in 12 years' time. I mean, no one would have thought that. I just thought, you're unbelievably charismatic and you're fun um and the audience are like like you and great and then for whatever reason it didn't work out in my opinion uh for them as solo artists you know for different reasons in that part of the show. And then we just had this idea in the moment to put them in a band. And then, like I said,

you know, where I think pretty much all of them have done great is that they've used the group as a vehicle to go where they really want to go in their lives. And would Harry be Harry without One Direction? Well, none of us could answer that. I couldn't tell you. All I know is being in the group definitely made it easier. Of course. And that's why I thought, interestingly, about seven or eight years ago,

I thought there's not going to be any need for these shows anymore because of social media. And here's the crazy thing, is that the amount of UK artists that have broken globally in the last, say, seven years has fallen off a cliff, literally. If you think about how many global artists, British, have broken globally in the last seven years, it's possibly three, which is crazy.

I can't think of three. Well, okay. So is AI a concern, an opportunity? Does it cross your mind? I think both. I don't think you'll ever beat the real thing. Having said that, it'll happen. I mean, sooner rather than later,

I think there already is a Japanese artist who doesn't exist and she sells out stadiums. So there's no question it's going to happen, but people are always going to be more interested in the real thing. If you go to a concert, you want to see those people. You want to say, I was within touching distance of that person, not something that doesn't exist. I would agree to a big extent.

I actually think that a lot of the people that are actually building AI, like Sam Altman the other day, he said he believes that there's going to be a huge surge in people's demand and desire for real in-person entertainment and experiences, especially in a world if AI causes a little bit of a displacement in the job market

and we have more free time, which is what he's the guy that's building ChatGPT. He says that we're going to see the industry boom around entertainment. And I've actually got a billionaire friend that lives about five minutes from here in a penthouse. Billionaire in biotech, AI, everything. He's just a super smart guy.

And when I sat with him, he said the same thing to me. He said, do you know what's going to boom? He said, people's need for entertainment. In a world where a lot of the work can be even, you know cars being a driver is the biggest employer in the world the autonomous vehicles that are driving around san francisco as taxis now are a glimpse of that future so all these people that are going to be displaced in some way will need we'll have a lot of free time yeah and that will cause us to be you know know, maybe live in communes, but also just to really go back to in real life experiences. And I did a post the other day about this,

how you see opposites rise, polar opposites rise together, like digital music surged, vinyl records become a little bit popular, and bowling alleys are now, you know, seeing a surge, and these sort of flight club, and these sort of in-person experiences because we've become so digitalized and i see entertainment as one of those things like the entertainment industry concerts festivals yeah it's being a nice place to run to from yeah headsets no i think you're right i think and it's it's a it's a good point you make about the the two opposites. Fast fashion, slow fashion.

We saw that rise as well. What is so fascinating as well is seeing these brands, which are 50, 60 years old, suddenly become super huge again, whether it's Lego, whether it's Mario Brothers, whether it's Barbie. Because sometimes, Mario Brothers, whether it's Barbie. Because sometimes, you know, there's this feeling of, am I just saying things were better because I'm just getting cranky, which is quite depressing.

And then I go, actually, no, Queen or David Bowie or Elton John were, are the best artists of all time. I mean, George Michael just is. And I don't think there's anybody in the world as good as George Michael today. I genuinely don't. I wish there was. By the way, he was one of the nicest people I'd ever met in my life. Really? Yeah.

But no, I think we're just going through a very interesting time right now and uh i'm a great believer embrace anything that's going to help you um don't dismiss it but um i still think you know when again when when i was talking to one direction i remember saying to them our goal is for you to have enough hits that if you ever reform that you can do stadium tours that means you've got to have about 10 hit singles um uh because that's what people want to hear they want to hear the hits um and you know if they ever did reform that's exactly what would happen are they gonna come back i doubt? I doubt it. You doubt it? I doubt it. Spice Girls came back? Hmm?

Spice Girls came back many years later? The one thing I regret is I should have kept the name. Oh, you should have owned the name? I should have owned the name. You didn't own the name? No. Who owns the name? They do.

Oh, okay. That's the problem. I could have made an animation or whatever. But when you give an artist the name, it's not yours. And that's my only regret. So if you're listening, I'll buy it back from you. So they all find it at the moment. In fact, we could do it as a partnership.

Well, I mean, yeah. I mean, sure. There we go. You were there. But that's the only thing I do regret because if one of the band members, for whatever reason, say they don't want a tour, it can stop the others touring. So if it was me who owned the name,

it wouldn't be a problem. You could do a tour with three of them. So that's what's stopping a tour because do they all own 20%? I believe so, yes. i mean i i can be very naive at times and that was me being very very naive uh so next time that will be part of the deal i have to own the name they can still make most of the money but i need to earn the name we have a closing tradition on this podcast where the last guest leaves a question for the next guest not knowing who

they're going to be leaving it for so the question that's been left for you by our previous guest was what one decision could you make today that would have the most positive impact on your life long term? Don't eat sugar. Really? Yeah. Yeah. Seriously. That's true.

I can't argue with it. It's just not good for you. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you so much.