The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett - The Gaslighting & Conversation Expert: This Is A Sign You’ll Divorce in 10 Years!

Episode Date: December 22, 2025

Trial Lawyer and leading communication expert JEFFERSON FISHER reveals how gaslighting and narcissism work, why people don’t listen to you, and the courtroom tricks for respect and power! Jefferson Fisher is a Texas trial lawyer and leading communication expert. He is the founder of Fisher Firm, creator of The Jefferson Fisher School of Communication, and author of the book, “The Next Conversation: Argue Less, Talk More”. He explains: ◼️The fastest way to spot a narcissist in under 30 seconds ◼️The phrase that instantly exposes gaslighting ◼️Why people stop respecting you mid conversation ◼️The courtroom trick that makes people listen ◼️How to control any conversation without raising your voice 00:00 Intro 02:56 These Communication Skills Will Change Your Life and Career Trajectory 09:40 How to Have Control Over Conversations 12:14 The Psychology Behind Feeling Comfortable in Any Conversation 15:42 How Your Body Language Can Influence Others’ Opinions 20:38 The Traits of Confident People 22:40 Dealing With Difficult Conversations and Gaslighters 24:38 The Words Gaslighters Use Against You 31:00 The Attachment Style Most at Risk of Being Gaslighted 39:19 This Is What Manipulators and Narcissists Do 42:55 How to Stop a Narcissist 49:15 Your Reactions Reveal So Much About You 51:21 How to Stop Being Easily Triggered 55:00 How Being Honest With People Can Help You 01:00:34 How Our Parents’ Arguments Shaped Our Love Relationships 01:15:19 Find Your Priorities and Set Your Boundaries 01:17:20 People Pleasers 01:23:01 Relationship Arguments: Can They Be Good? 01:25:24 A Big Indicator That Something Really Matters to Your Partner 01:33:19 The Secret to Spot Anyone Being Fake 01:34:58 The Fake Laughs 01:42:05 These Small Moments Will Have the Biggest Impact on Impressions 01:53:30 Top 5 Things to Become the Best Communicator at Anything 02:03:02 Phones Have Become Our Pacifier to Relieve Anxiety 02:04:25 Stop Overexplaining 02:08:11 The Power of Taking Pauses to Think 02:10:50 One of the Best Traits of Leaders 02:17:43 How to Help Someone Grieving 02:27:09 The Counterattack to Bullies: Expose Them 02:34:22 Huge Relationship Unlock: Energy Checking With Your Parent 02:40:16 The Predictor of Whether a Relationship Will Last Follow Jefferson: Instagram - https://bit.ly/4pzxZ21  Facebook - https://bit.ly/4rUhTS6 TikTok - https://bit.ly/4aihiDv YouTube - https://bit.ly/3YplSIG  You can pre-order ‘The Next Conversation Workbook’, here: https://amzn.to/3XSHOvH  The Diary Of A CEO: ◼️Join DOAC circle here - https://doaccircle.com/  ◼️Buy The Diary Of A CEO book here - https://smarturl.it/DOACbook  ◼️The 1% Diary is back - limited time only - https://bit.ly/3YFbJbt  ◼️The Diary Of A CEO Conversation Cards (Second Edition) - https://g2ul0.app.link/f31dsUttKKb  ◼️Get email updates - https://bit.ly/diary-of-a-ceo-yt  ◼️Follow Steven - https://g2ul0.app.link/gnGqL4IsKKb  Sponsors:  Adobe - https://Adobe.Ly/OneBetter Wispr - Get 14 days of Wispr Flow for free at https://wisprflow.ai/DOAC  Stan: NO PURCHASE NECESSARY. VOID WHERE PROHIBITED. For Official Rules, visit https://DaretoDream.stan.store

What are the five most important things for anyone who's striving to be a masterful communicator to get what they want out of life? The first is authenticity, and presence is the highest form of authenticity. Okay, on that point, I'm going to play this video on the screen that went viral of Marley Cyrus and Amy Campbell. I haven't seen this. That's painful to watch. Number two. Reduce the amount of distraction. Three, stop over explaining.

Number four. Know how to deal with their sadness. And I'll go through all of these in detail. But number five is you have to know how to handle the narcissists and the gaslighter. What do I do? Let me show you. First, you need to. Yeah, for a lot of people, that kind of blows their mind.

Jefferson Fisher is back, and the board-certified trial lawyer is using his expertise in conflict resolution and communication. To teach couples, friends, employees, and everyone in between how to master difficult conversations. Here's the truth. You have to invest in your communication. I don't say what needs to be said at work, I'll lose that promotion. Same thing in relationships. Most relationships don't fall apart because they fill out of love. They fell out of communication because of 100 moments where repair could have happened

and it didn't because you said, this is so stupid, this is so small. Like there's a recent study showing that the biggest predictor of the child's well-being within the parental relationship is not whether they were married or divorced. It was how they deal with conflict. But people are definitely afraid of the conflict at their hand because they don't know what to say. And so I want to help them feel controlled enough. feel confident in this. And it's knowing things like being right is overrated.

If I respond first with frustration, I'm going to lose every time. Or if you want to know how to handle the insults, the patronising, the dismissive, the first thing you have to do is that's the mistake I've made multiple times. Just give me 30 seconds of your time. Two things I wanted to say. The first thing is a huge thank you for listening and tuning into the show week after week. It means the world to all of us. And this really is a dream that we absolutely never had.

and couldn't have imagined getting to this place. But secondly, it's a dream where we feel like we're only just getting started. And if you enjoy what we do here, please join the 24% of people that listen to this podcast regularly and follow us on this app. Here's a promise I'm going to make to you. I'm going to do everything in my power to make this show as good as I can, now and into the future.

We're going to deliver the guests that you want me to speak to, and we're going to continue to keep doing all of the things you love about this show. Thank you. Jefferson Fisher What you do professionally How do you sort of characterize your profession? Well, I'm a trial attorney by trade. What does that mean?

That means I help clients with legal needs and board certified and personal injury. It's when people get hurt. I have trials. So that means there are other attorneys that don't ever go to a courtroom. I go into a courtroom. And you stand before a judge?

A jury. You have a judge, have a jury, you have a court reporter, a bailiff, I have opposing attorneys. There are people in the room. And you try and convince those people of your point of view to get a particular outcome? Advocate my client's facts in order to get the result that they want. So why did you think it was important to write a book about conversation, talking, getting what you want from the conversations we have with people we care about? Because I have seen time and time again that when I am training a client is what I call. I'm preparing them for cross-examination, for deposition.

They really don't know how to engage in conflict. And so I can't think of any other profession that is more entrenched in conflict, maybe outside of a boxer or some, you know, UFC something, that deals with actual conflict and sits there and listens to it all, then in the legal world, in a trial attorney. And so, yeah, it's my job to advocate, based on my client's facts, to get them the result that they want. The reason why I wrote that book and how that book applies is

I took a lot of the lessons that I teach every one of my clients and put them in that book because I'm sitting there preparing them for cross-examination and realizing, oh, wait, they are deathly afraid of the conflict that they're in. Because most of the time, it's the most emotional, stressful, overwhelmed they are ever in their life. They're in a place that have never been.

They don't know what it's like. They've only seen it on TV. And so it's my job to kind of take their hand and say, this is how we're going to do it. And how does that apply to the average person in their life? People think that the goal of any argument or any conversation is to win. And same for a trial. They say you want to win a trial. I've seen it so many times where I've gotten the result that they want and I've realized they still have the problem.

They still wanted the apology. It all would have been resolved. There'd be no case if somebody had just said, I'm sorry. And so you find that for the everyday person, it's my job now and passion to be able to help them get into conflict and say, I feel controlled in this. I feel confident in this. Now I know exactly where I'm going in this because I've been there before. And it is not a skill that comes naturally. It is a skill that is learned.

and what do you think is the sort of variance and outcome how would my life change if i became an absolute master in this you know if i started from zero in this regard and then i became a master in dealing with conflict and dealing with difficult people and dealing with people that gaslight me and dealing with narcissists and all these kinds of things why would my life be different and in what domains it's quite a lot yeah first would be you would be equipped for outside of necessary expertise, anywhere you wanted to be in life. People feel like communication is zero cost. It costs you something. If I'm not speaking up in that relationship, it costs my own sense of worth. If I don't say what needs to be said at work, I might have lost that

promotion. Everything the bill always comes due. If you can think of every time you didn't say the thing as like a receipt at a restaurant, every time it's... it's a bill of what I am not putting into my life because I chose to either say something or not say something at the right time. And when you realize that if I can speak with confidence, well, that's me gaining a little bit more. If I can say things with control, that's me gaining just a little bit more. A second benefit of it is that you realize being right is overrated. If you tell me the sky is purple, knock yourself out, Stephen. It doesn't have to touch anything with me on who I am or any of my opinions.

We're opinion-making machines. I feel like that's all on social media. It's to be set up to give your opinion on things that most of the time will rarely ever touch you. And if you can have the peace of mind of knowing, I don't need to agree with you to understand you. If you have an opinion, I don't have to give one back. If you say something, I can choose not to say anything at all. and for a lot of people that kind of blows their mind of you mean i don't have to respond no you don't have to say anything if somebody's talking really fast you can talk really slow they forget

that you have full autonomy in it and when you realize that it's you who's taking the wheel you take the wheel of your life but what about justice jefferson yeah do you know justice like this person has wronged me they've said something wrong they've i don't know they tweeted at me something which is incorrect, I need to correct the record, justice. I think we all have a sort of in an innate sense of justice. We want things to be fair and right. Yes. Justice is an inherent value that is high priority for a lot of people, for good reason. You might say, well, they've wronged me. This isn't right. That's all well and good. The question is going to be, how long do you want to carry it? How long do you want to carry that feeling? Because I can either choose to let it go.

I can choose to say the thing. It's not at all my position that you should be stepping on eggshells and not say the thing and be a wallflower. No, it's the opposite. I'm saying you say what you need to say in a way that is controlled, in a way that is signaling. I'm saying this because it needs to be said, but not because I have to say it.

There's a lot of people who feel like, well, something needs to be said, but maybe you're not the one to say it. Maybe you're the one that needs to, maybe it doesn't need to be said right now because if they're not willing to listen, well, then what good is it ever do? What I like to say is, you know, for you to learn how to stand up for yourself, you first have to learn who's worth getting out of your chair for. I'm not going to be making big moves for something that is not at all worth my time. So, yeah, justice is absolutely worth it, but when you go, I'm the one that has to be carrying this, a lot of the times people do things to you, and it's nothing to them, but yet it's everything to you, and now you're just, you're walking around for 20 years with a comment that you could have said something way long ago and decided to drop it, but you chose to carry it, and now you're the only one that has the weight of that. if I'm dealing with someone who's in a position of power, someone who's a, I don't know, a senior to me at my company or even someone who in my social group is a bit more higher up in the sort of social pecking order and they're continually putting me down or being difficult or even a partner that I'm romantically involved in, what are the hallmarks of someone who has control over their communication and what are the hallmarks of someone that doesn't? Like what is it that makes, because when you speak, it feels very composed and controlled, what are you intentionally doing to achieve that effect? I'm wanting you to match my rhythm.

I'm wanting you to come to my frequency. People get it wrong when they go big time to an 11, a big emotional reaction. If I have a big emotional outburst, am I signaling that I'm somebody who's trustworthy, reliable, and confident, or am I signaling that I am out of my depth? I don't know what I want,

and I am not to be believed, right? Because it's, when you have an emotional outburst, everybody thinks you're just being emotional. And they don't, all of a sudden, you're not credited for the truth of what you're saying. So sometimes emotions can get in the way of what needs to be said because of how you're delivering it. So when I say, I'm going to talk to you in a way that's going to sound more controlled, it's, I'm slowing down my words, I'm lower my volume. Why? Because I want to pull you down here. And if I can pull you down here, well, then we can talk about a lot harder things rather than feeling. like have to rush. So if you want to talk to somebody in your relationship or somebody that's

kind of higher up on a pecking order, so to speak, when you can show them that change doesn't bother you, when you can show them that you don't have to rush through this situation, people feel that you are giving them a sense of comfort. In other words, in conversation, everybody is looking for an anchor. When you go to a meeting, we listen to the person who's the anchor, they're usually the person who says a lot less, the person who's observing and listening rather than always giving their opinion about what you should be doing. Those are the people you don't listen to. As soon as you, if you've ever heard somebody to say, you know what I think you should do, does it ever make you want to do what they said? No, it's because they've made it

their idea. Now they're telling you what to do. If I were to say to you, you can't do that, what's the first thing you think of? Yes, I can. You know, it's the same kind of concept where it's me lowering to be the anchor in the conversation. And when you're in a case in front of a judge, is there anything else that you're intentionally thinking about with, I don't know, your body language or the eye contact or any of these other things that you've learned over time are really important to get your message heard? I'm speaking like I've been there before. Explain that to me.

Walk into a room like you've been there before, as if everybody else is just visiting. So what I do before every trial is I will go in. there before the jury comes in. The judge comes in, everybody comes in. And I say to myself, this is my living room and everybody else is just visiting. And so I will touch the chairs. I will put my hands on the banisters. I will walk around. I will feel that space and feel it in a way of saying, I have been here before. And when I can exude that kind of confidence that every juror that watches, all of a sudden it calms them down. They go, who can I rely on here?

Who's more trustworthy? Who's more credible? Because that's what it is. When you're persuading, when you are advocating your case, it's who, ultimately it comes down to who is more credible. And so when I can not get emotionally flustered, like I've seen it so many times where a judge rules against me. and I act as oh, that's exactly what I wanted.

You know, I'm acting as a, thank you, Judge. And the jury is never going to know really any different, but I've seen on other attorneys, or the judge rules against them, and they go, or they roll their eyes, or they act frustrated, and what does the juror think? Oh, they must not have wanted me to hear this information. This must have been bad for their case. So if you are always reacting to situations in which,

you have to be emotional with in a sense that you're not paying attention to who's watching you. Okay, on that point. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So when you say rules against you, you mean during the trial, there's something you request. Exactly. The judge might say no, and you say, thank you, Judge. Yeah. You act as if you're not defeated.

You act as though that's exactly what you've expected. It's the whole idea of that's not going to shake me. So a lot of the times you'll see in real court, not TV, the judge, judge will say, counsel, can you approach? And both attorneys come up and they play some kind of noise cancellations where only the attorneys can hear the judge. And the judge is making a decision at that time that we don't want to hear it to let the jury know. Why? Because it's information that might swayed the case in some way and not be as objective. And you have to pay attention to how the attorneys are walking away after that meeting's done. If somebody looks

defeated, it just signals, oh, this is information that they must not want. Or they're objecting. I've seen so many cases where there's one attorney who objects to everything. It's my rule if I really want to have one objection, the whole trial, because to the jury, an objection is me keeping evidence out. So if you always object, always object, always object, you're just signaling there's information I don't want you to hear. But if I have the confidence of knowing there's really one objection, I know that's going to be material to my case, how they know I've been there before, this is not something. that's going to be making or breaking my case.

It's all of credibility. If they don't trust me, they're not going to trust my client or my client's case. I think also it illuminates to me how much of communication is non-verbal. Because in that example, you're just talking about how they're watching your body language and how you've received something. Right. And if you were defensive with all those objections, or if you were defeated in the judge's ruling,

that would work against you even though it's really nothing was set. like nothing significant was said. Yeah, it's a balance of knowing, am I going to choose to react because of personal ego if I didn't get my way, or am I having the better mindset of I'm advocating on behalf of my client?

Like, I've been, let's say you're a witness and you're opposed to me, and I'm asking you a question. And I think you said something that's contrary to the evidence that I have right here. rather than me getting messed up, are you sure about that, Mr. Barlow?

Let me go, you know, I have this piece of paper here and I get really worked up versus me putting, you said something and I put my hand on the paper, and I said, you sure? Like all of a sudden, it's a moment of, it kind of piques their interest of like what's happening. Oh, this attorney knows.

This attorney is somebody who's confident and has this, what I call, in the pocket presence. I'm not trying to be too forward. I'm not trying to be too back. I'm just in the pocket, like a jazz band. Like, everybody is on, everybody's on beat. And so I'm not rushing. I'm not slowing down.

I'm just right in the pocket. In the pocket. Is that what people call aura? Swagger. Maybe some people call it. Yeah, aura. You could have it for anything in any context. I like to say in the pocket because it just reminds me of the right timing is my timing.

And that is I'm going to match how I need to be of what's most authentic, what's most genuine to me. If you were to ask me to read something really fast, it wouldn't sound like great, because that's not my personality. And so if I know that I am acting and speaking in accordance with the values that I hold, and I'm saying, everybody here is just visiting, this is, I've been here before. Let me, y'all don't know where to go. Let me show you. And I have that kind of mentality. People will listen to you forever. They'll find that attractive of saying, how does this person know where they're going? I can follow them.

It's just, it's natural leadership to speak in a way that says, I know where I'm going, I've been here before. I think that's probably good advice for people who have important meetings or are going on dates. Yeah. To maybe get there ahead of time and familiarize yourself with the location. Yes. Just so you, you know, you don't have the added anxiety of like stumbling through the physical

environment, like you're looking for the thing or trying to find the toilet or exactly. I don't know, trying to figure out how to make the past. PowerPoint presentation, airdrop onto the screen and all those kinds of things, which we've all seen before. Yeah. I always, anytime I go to speak, I spoke this past week in Santa Barbara. I went ahead of time before my speaking time to go. I want to see what the room looks like.

I want to see. How can I touch and say hi to the people that are working AV? How can I meet them? How can I? If you really want to be better as a professional speaker, talk to people in the crowd before you speak. Get to know people's names. it's going to naturally lower you. Get to know their names.

Ask them why they're here. Say, I'm so thankful that you're here. I'm really looking forward to the message and getting to talk to you today. When you can go in and touch people, it's a different sense than if I'm going into a room totally cold because you don't really have the vibe.

You don't really know how that is. So, yeah, going to a restaurant ahead of time, that's great. Not bringing your phone, even better. You know, getting able to be a sense of knowing I've been here before I want to welcome you to my space When we talk about people that have aura

You must have met a lot of people in your career And your life generally that you felt had a sense of aura Yes What was it about them That gave them that aura What is it? It's a frequency of peace for me I think of people

And you think of people in your life who you have felt most comfortable with, the person you feel like I can just be myself. I can finally let everything down. And for me, it was my grandparents' house. As soon as I walk in, it's a different feeling of time kind of stand still. They want to know about me.

They want to know how am I doing. It's that feeling. I could talk about people who seem like they have aura and they just have a glow about them. it's usually of they're not trying to prove anything to anybody they just naturally exude that kind of charisma because of the security of knowing who they are and what they can do and I guess what's the opposite of that then sometimes it's easier to understand something by understanding the opposite what would that look like I would say that authentic people authentic aura as you said doesn't come from

people securing themselves to you. That's for insecure people. The people who are authentic know that I am good exactly where I'm at. Oh, you want to rush? I'm really no rush. What happens today happens today. Is it really due today or it could it be done tomorrow if I had to? If it's a slower pace, I find that there is so much kind of what they call cowboy wisdom on these kind of things where, and I'm from Texas in the south. So it's kind of this, knowing that the right time will come when that time is right and not having to push that. So if you want to look at the opposite, it's the opposite of aura is insecure. It's name dropping. It's having to be friends immediately. It's having to prove to you

how much money I have, or whatever, it's everything else, being everything to everybody else except myself. People who have a sense of style, their own sense of style, naturally have an aura. Why? Because they don't care what in the world anybody else is wearing. This is what I like. My daughter, right, she's six. We tried, setting out clothes.

Forget it. She can come down in a leper print tutu and her sunglasses and whatever she, you know, wants, and you know what, she thinks she is the flyest thing in the world. I mean, that's, I never want to take that out of her. The people who have a sense of fashion, the sense of who I am, and they didn't have to look cool to anybody's social standard, but it's, do they really care what anybody else thinks? Usually people with aura do not. And sometimes when you come up against, I mean, we were talking before we started recording about since this book's publication, what have been people saying to you and what

are the chapters, what are the chapters that have stood out the most of people? And you mentioned that it tends to be things around dealing with difficult conversations, dealing with difficult people. And one of the phrases that's been arguably overused a lot in society is this phrase gaslighting. Yeah. And the definition of gaslighting that I managed to pull was gaslighting is psychological manipulation where one person purposefully lies or manipulates the other to make them doubt their own reality, memory, or sanity. Do people talk to you about gaslighting a lot? Yes.

Now that you've written this book. Yes. And what do you think gaslighting is? It's one of those things that's been used so often that we almost have to like pause for a second just to define it again. Yes. Let me put it this way. The difference between gaslighting and lying.

Lying is a surface level of, I could tell you, instead of having a silver cup, this is a red cup. Well, that would be a lie. Gaslighting is I'm trying to alter your reality into mind. I'm trying to make you question how other people perceive you, including myself. How you perceive yourself. If anybody's ever questioned, am I crazy? Am I the crazy one? Is it me?

Is it everybody most likely you're probably being gas led? And here's the truth. I have been the gaslighter. Everybody has been the gaslighter, whether they intentionally know it or not, because it's all that feeling of preservation, of defensiveness, of I don't want people to know the truth of what's happening in my life. So I'm going to mislead. And gaslighting the intent is to alter your reality, to make you question what is real and what is not. So I might do something wrong and then I might come home and know that I've done something wrong and intentionally

try and sell my partner a version of reality that makes them fundamentally question what they know to try and spare me the critique or to control them? Yes, to protect yourself. It's self-preservation. Say, let's say you and your partner had come home from a dinner, all right, and you're just in a very critical mood. And maybe you're trying to distract from something else that's going on in your life. And you're being critical of a story that she shared at dinner. why would you, why would you ever say that?

And she goes, everything was fine. You're like, fine, no, it was not. Did you not see how they reacted? No, no, no, no. Listen, I know you don't want to hear this, but everybody feels that, you know, you're a little bit much. And I'm the one that needs to tell you this. You see how you're all of a sudden starting to alter how she feels in that moment?

And I've seen the other side of that. And it is, it is not at all something. that you can come back from without serious relationship work to be able to find a way to say, okay, how are we really walking in truth? Because you get so far away from radical honesty and conversation. So gaslighting is not something to be taken lightly, but I will say people often apply to the wrong thing. They'll use it as a sense of saying, you're saying something I don't like, so you're gaslighting me. You know, we're in an argument and you're pointing out something that hurt your feelings, oh, that's gaslighting. And they use it as an excuse.

It's almost a form of gaslighting. Exactly. That's exactly right. And in a weird way, it can reverse that way. But imagine me saying something hurtful to you. And you go, that really hurt my feelings. I go, well, that's just my boundary. I just have a boundary about everything. Or this is, you're just gaslighting me. You know, I've never met somebody who talked about their ex without saying my narcissistic ex. You know, I finally just got out of a narcissistic relationship. It's never us, right? It's always. the other, it's always the other person. And so there's these words that we can kind of pepper and salt in the sentences that are also still another form, if we look at it, a form of

self-preservation. Look at all they're bad and don't look at mine. Why is it important that we don't gaslight others? And I ask this question because everybody listening now is probably going to want the answer to the question, which is what do I do about a gaslighter? Yeah. But again, this is avoiding the responsibility that we all have a like a tendency or at some point in our life have gaslighted somebody else. And, you know, I don't think my audience is just the gaslighted. Yeah, exactly. Statistically, clearly, you're also all the gaslighters.

Right. So how do, why is it important that we don't gaslight other people? And is there a way for us to avoid, you know, getting into a situation with our backs against the wall and we end up gaslighting someone? It's important not to gaslight somebody because every time you do, you're removing yourself further and further from the truth, the truth of how you feel, the truth of your relationship. You are withholding reality from that other person

rather than having radical honesty about what's happening. So it degrades the relationship. It degrades another person's self-worth. And in many ways, gaslighting steals their reality. It's not something you can give back without, a lot of work. It's taking in some sense. Now, it can be absolutely intentional and it can also be unintentional as a form of self-preservation. And if you feel like you are being gaslit, the secret to knowing is slowing down the conversation. If I am staying still in the conversation,

Meaning, you could say something to me that's a form of gas sliding and making me question, did I, oh my goodness, did I really say that? Did I really hurt their feelings? Did I, and get into my head, and I start kind of jumping around and trying to change what I did. But if I were to say, Stephen, I remember that differently, and that's where I stop, then you can try other things and I'm going to repeat. Yeah, I remember that differently. it's standing in the truth of what you know rather than being concerned and misled by giving someone the reins and the leash to drag you around and if i um if i think about i think it's thinking about all the times where i think i might have gas let someone

you know in relationships backs against the wall um and you're having an argument with someone or it's quite difficult in my head to know the difference between the word like just saying something that isn't necessarily true, or is your perception of things versus, like, gaslighting? Is the difference in your mind in tension? Like, if I give my version of reality, we were at that party, you said this thing, I saw the person roll their eyes, and then they walked away, I think they're really offended, I think you offended them. Right.

What's the difference between that and me gaslighting someone? Between lying and gaslighting? Yeah, like, I'm trying to understand, in that context you gave about going to a party, someone said something, and then they walk up. What's the difference between if that's how you saw reality and you're communicating it versus gaslighting someone? To the intention. It's the intention. And the tension is, I'm the one in control, not you.

Okay. So you are trying to control the narrative. You are trying to be both director, producer, and actor. For your own agenda. That's right. For your own film. And for control. I'm the character in my own movie.

Hi, I'm the main character. and you need to behave this way, you need to believe this, you need to act upon that. And so the more I can try to manipulate that reality, and what's so wild is it becomes so manipulated that you believe it too. Now that falsehood has now become your fact in some sense, that the really good liars convince themselves that that lie is the truth. Is there a certain type of person that's more susceptible to being gaslit or to being victimized in any way with conversation, in your view?

Anxious attachment. The ones that are, they, people who can't regulate by themselves, they have to co-regulate. Meaning, most of the time, men are good self-regulators. Just give me some time by myself. give me an evening, give me an hour, let me walk outside, and I'll regulate myself. Most of the time it's been my experience, women are not like that. They co-regulate most of them.

They need you to also make them feel good. They can't be good if you're not good. We're not good. I'm not good if you're not okay. So it's that whole, I'm not okay if you're not okay. And so in many ways, they need you to be able to calm down themselves, and they don't self-regulate as well. And so the people who are most susceptible to gaslighting are ones who need co-regulation, people who are anxious attachment, meaning they need – are you okay? Are you good? Do you need anything? Are you sure you're not okay?

and versus the people who are more avoidant and three, the people who are typically more insecure. So do you think women get gaslit more than men? Yes. But women still gas-like women, right? Of course. But just men are more than... When you're talking relationships, when you're talking relationships,

that's my personal opinion is because from my feedback, from the people that have read my book and the people who give me feedback on my book, yeah, it's majority, vast majority are women. I'm not saying that's some empirical study on it, but what I will say is women are just as capable of gaslighting. And women can certainly gaslight women. And it's, I'm saying this with the mindset of everybody gaslights,

whether they know it or not, and they have in the past, most likely they can think of a time in the past where they did. without knowing it, but it is, that would be my opinion that most of the time men are the ones that do it to women. It's reading some research here that says multiple studies on emotional abuse in heterosexual relationships show women report higher rates of gaslighting in coercive control than men. Men do report gaslighting too, but less frequently and usually in different forms. And as it relates to workplace data, surveys from management and organizational psychology

show women are more likely to have their competence questioned, their memory doubted. or their experience dismissed. Women in male-dominated fields report the highest rates of gaslighting, and women of color report even higher rates of being told their perception is wrong or that they're misinterpreting things. Sounds like that tracks. And also in medical settings, women are less likely to be believed about their symptoms. Women's pain is underestimated.

Women get later diagnoses for multiple conditions like heart disease and autoimmune disorders, ADHD and Autism, and the list goes on and on and on. If I had to say who does more, you know, I'm not trying to put some kind of like headline of men do it more than women. In my experience, it tends to be the guy. And, you know, what does that information show me? It shows me that that sounds about right. I do think from the people that follow my content, listen to my content, because I stay very connected to my community of so many women say, I feel like I'm in this workplace and they are doubting my competence. They're doubting my ability to make decisions. I'm not being

believed. I'm putting, I'm being put down. I'm, whether it's not even their experience, it's just because of their gender. And those are real, those are real questions. Does that mean that that's gaslighting? Probably not all the time. But for me to say, that's, that's a dumb complaint. You know, that's just complaining. In many ways, when you start denying that reality, then you have the same problem. Do you know, I am, I've hired thousands of people over the last decade, and I have to say, sometimes it's hard, it's difficult to understand the plight of someone else when you haven't lived their experience, like you haven't been a woman or whatever. It's impossible. It's like very difficult. So you kind of just have to take them for their

word sometimes if you've not lived it yourself. Or you can look at data or whatever else. And I do have to say that I have experienced male executives who were extremely dismissive of their female peers in a way that was 100% inconsistent as it relates to genders. What I mean by that is I can think of several male executives over the years who I observed dismissing or diminishing or not giving the woman in the room the same credit really for no other reason than she was a woman. And so it's a very real thing. And it's not every man, I have to say this,

but there is a certain particular type of person who, for some reason, in my experience, would see a woman in the workplace or in the high sort of upper echelons of the professional environment as being less than them just because of her gender. So when I hear what you're saying about women are predominantly coming to you talking about these issues of gaslighting,

it does kind of track with what I've seen. I'll tell you this. I've never had a man. come to me in all this time that I've been from my book to my content this number of years ever say I think I'm being gaslit it has always been the woman

never never what about the conversation around like dealing with narcissists because this feels like it's kind of one in the same the words are used in the same sort of vernacular but do you have men coming to you saying that I think my partner's a narcissist yes you do yeah that I do have

yeah it's always it's always they're married to one or just got out of a relationship with one. But it's never them. And what do you say to someone who is dealing with an narcissist who is dealing with someone who repeatedly gaslights them? Let's say it's in the context of work. Yeah.

What are they meant to do, quit their job? Well, that is an option. So let's not rule that out. Okay. If it's worth it to you. Because that's the question of what's your purpose here. And this is where you're going to be forever. Then there's some things we need to put in place.

But what are you to do? You are to limit the, interaction, like limit the exposure, talk less, neutral statements. So if you can, many ways you can, just limit the amount of physicality of, I don't have to see you, I don't have to communicate with you. I know you work three doors down, but I don't have to be your best friend and you certainly don't have to be mine. Two is understanding the game that you're in. It's a game for narcissists of praise or provoke, meaning if I am not showering you with praise,

then the narcissist will turn to provoke in order to create an argument for the same effect. They delight in frustration just as much as they delight in your praise because they get the same type of control. I've seen so many expert witnesses in my field that are what I would term are narcissists.

They can never possibly be wrong. They don't do empathy. And again, this is me with the understanding of, hey, we all have narcissistic tendencies. You know, we all have narcissistic traits. And narcissism is a diagnosable condition that you can have. I think more people would qualify more than they think. But how do you handle it day-to-day? It's knowing what kind of game you're in, and it's a game you're just not going to play.

I know I don't have to say anything to that person. Two, I'm going to limit my distance to them. And three, I'm going to use neutral statements. I'm going to use neutral statements like, that's good to know. Thanks for sharing. Noted. Things that they can't grab onto and continue to have in a conversation. When you think of like the hallmarks of a really, really one of these types of people,

what are the way the characteristics that I should be looking out for if I'm dealing with one such person who is going to try and manipulate me? He's going to try and gaslight me. What do they do? They can never be happy for anybody but themselves. They can't be happy for you. They can't be happy for other people. These are the types that if you were to say,

hey, did you see that Stephen just got this award? Isn't that so great? It's just nominated for whatever. And they go, I mean, I guess that's fine. You know, when I did this and they started talking about themselves. They can never be happy for somebody else. They can't be happy for you. They have to find some way.

to turn the conversation of why the world is so hard and so pitiful for them that the world was against them and they couldn't get it, but they were just as deserving. I mean, I guess that's fine. I mean, you know, I do this, but nobody, nobody listens. Nobody really cares. They find that they have a very victim mentality. So two is a victim mentality. Everything happens to them in some way.

And three, they can't feel for other people. They don't do emotion. It's always about the perception of, what others would think. They're very, very sensitive to how others might portray them. So they're going to give you a different view than they give other people. And so the couple might be terrible. But for a narcissist, they're going to put on a face that the relationship is perfect to everybody else.

And everybody goes, you must be so blessed to be married to that person. And you're going, you kidding me? They're fooling everybody. And it's a very helpless position. Have you ever had a narcissist try and pray on you? Yeah. Yeah, I'm in the legal field, man. Expert witnesses have opinions to them that are unquestionable. You can't. This is their opinion and nobody else could ever argue with it. When I have another expert who says just the opposite. So a lot of the times, they are very condescending. You know, that's fine. And they have their opinion and this is all there is and how dumb of you to ever question me. And usually what gives it away, is if I feel like this is somebody that, okay, they can't be reasonable. They're never going to give an inch on what's reasonable.

I will ask this. I'll say, this is typically in a deposition. I'll say, and you think the jury's going to like that. Or you think other people are going to agree with you. And all of a sudden, they kind of change in an instant to be able to match what the jury is going to think. So if I ever to say, and you think that's okay, and you think others are going to find that okay, And you think that the jury, when they hear this, they're all going to agree with this very hard-line opinion. I've seen it every time.

It's only when I reference other people, the presentation of themselves to other people, that they kind of put on a show. Why? Because they know that the perception of the crowd is everything. They need everybody to like them, to fawn. over them. They want their idea to be the best. And so they will manipulate the situation to be the chameleon, to make sure that everybody loves them, at least in their mind. It's not a reasonable thought. So they will typically change their opinion to sound more palatable, even though they could have admitted to that two hours into the deposition. Do they tend to talk more or less than the

average person in the room? Much more. Hmm. Is there a thin line, between just being insecure and being a narcissist. Because one of the things I was thinking about is you said earlier that they tend to bring everything back to themselves. And I was thinking about all the people that I know that if we were having a conversation about your book doing really, really well, the first response to that would be their mention of their own book. Like they would immediately bring it straight back to something about them.

And I was wondering, some of those people I just have in the category of just being a little bit insecure and that they just, you know, they're a search for validation. So I'm wondering where you think the line might be between sort of narcissistic behavior. and just, like, extremely insecure. Maybe there's not a line. Maybe extreme insecurity is narcissism. Both can be true. You know, I'd say that not all insecure people are narcissists, but all narcissists are insecure.

I would say that if I had to give some kind of line, it would be the interest for growth. Insecure people are looking for ways to grow and to secure and attach. narcissists, they're not looking for anybody to attach on to. They're looking for people to support them, you know, to please them. And so they have no interest in growth. To them, they've learned all they've have to learn. I am the best. I cannot improve anymore. That to me would be the difference. When you dealt with narcissists in your own life and in the courtroom, what is the reason why they couldn't pray on you? What did you do? as defense to stop their games, their typical games working on you?

I don't chase their words. Often one of the biggest things I see wrong in conversation is a narcissist will, same for a gaslighter, they'll dig a hole, all right? And then they expect you to fill it, meaning they're going to say something to frustrate you. And you go, no, no, that's not what happened, don't you remember? And you start chasing it. and then they just dig another hole and you keep going and you keep going

and you're exhausted because all you've been doing is trying to plug holes. You're not having a real conversation. And when I can give it a very clear definition, a very clear signal of noted, you know, I'm just going to stay right there. I'm going to see, I'm going to put down the shovel

and stay right there with them and maybe I'll say something as neutral as got it. I don't have to chase it. I don't have to say anything. And to me, the people that have those narcissistic traits, once they realize that they can have no game with you, that you're not going to play, they find somebody else.

They find somebody else. If you've ever had somebody come to you and they're the more emotionally toxic type of person, they always have some kind of problem. They come with you and they have this problem. You go, I just can't, right, this moment, I will. And 10 minutes later, what's happened? they don't have that issue. They've already gone to talk to somebody else.

I was watching a Dame Dash on the Breakfast Club. I don't know if you've seen it. But it's really... Another Breakfast Club. But it's Dame Dash is on there because he was, he filed for bankruptcy and Charlemagne has sat there. And Charlemagne is... I've actually interviewed both of them, both Dame and Charlemagne. And Charlemagne is very relaxed and every once in a while just tells Dame Dash that he thinks he's broke. And then Dame Dash is like very like hot-headed and like trying to prove

all the reasons why he's not broken like really like you know gassing himself and I it was it was an interesting it's an interesting video to watch I think it's the more recent one that came out within the last year because it does show in my view how to deal with someone who has a very

has a significant ego which is Charlemagne just never change his state like no matter what the volume is no matter how much emotion no matter when he starts calling him some quite personal insults. Charlemagne's demeanor, his tone, his posture. Yeah.

Doesn't change. Unbothered. Unbothered. And you can see it's super triggering that you just can't get to this guy. Like, it looks like Dame is like really annoyed that he, and he tries to say more offensive things. He goes, you're a, you're this, you're that, the other. And it's funny because I was watching it this morning. And it for me, it kind of tracks with a lot of the stuff you're saying about like just not going with them. Yeah. Just not following them. Because they want you to go somewhere. And there's a certain conflict they want to get in with you. And if you just kind of refuse and just stay anchored to whatever your point of view is, it's funny to watch. They want to push you. Yeah. My dad, I can remember growing up, I'd be in the passenger seat. He's

driving. And he ever had it where somebody, you're in the pasture seat and somebody's just rearing a bumper right on them? And I'd be looking in the side mirror. I'm like, I kind of start stressing out for him. You know, I'd had somebody's really riding the bumper, you know, right behind. And, I mean, just like clockwork, what he would do, we have shoulders on our, on the roads there in Texas. And rather than trying to speed up or get mad, he would just kind of pull over to the shoulder.

And he would say this every time. He'd say, go on with your bad self. Every time he'd go, go on with your bad self in the rear rear rear rear. Like, that's how unbothered he was by that of, I feel like so many people get road rage. and so many people talk out loud to the cars while they're driving. And it just never got him worked up and realizing my value, in my worth, of knowing who I am, is not at all determined by where you feel I should go. It goes back to that idea of, if you want to tell me, the sky is purple, knock yourself out.

Now, I don't have to be right, and you don't have to be right, and you don't have the ability to push me. I can move and you have your own. I know my lane. I know my speed. I don't have to match anybody else's. So when somebody is unbothered, it's not because they don't care. It's not for lack of care. It's an understanding, it's discernment of knowing I know who I am in this moment and why in the world would I try to be anybody else. Wouldn't life be amazing if we could all be untriggerable? It'd be more peaceable, that's for sure. It's interesting because, again, just reflecting on that interview I watched this morning,

when Dame Dash calls Charlemagne something really, really offensive, I noticed that as a viewer, I immediately look at Charlemagne to see his reaction to figure out if what Dame Dash just said was true. And do you see what I'm saying? Yes. He turned to him and said, you're a X. Right. And then Charlemagne just kind of laughed.

Yeah, yeah. It was like water off a duck's back. So immediately is the viewer, I go, well, that can't be true then because Charlemagne doesn't seem to care. Exactly. Well, it's not the lack of care. It's just the opposite. It's all the more care of knowing who he is. So if I were to tell you right now, I hate your purple shirt.

It's the most ugliest purple shirt I've ever seen, Stephen. Like, your shirt is so ugly in that purple. Does it affect you whatsoever? No, because I'm not wearing a purple shirt for anyone listening on Apple or spot. That's right. That's a good point. Right. But you see how you already know the characteristics of you.

You already know what you're wearing. And it's not just your clothes. I'm wearing my confidence. I'm wearing everything that your parents, your loved ones have instilled and put on you. I'm wearing the armor of my faith. I have all these other things that I'm wearing. And if you want to say my shirt's purple, that that doesn't affect me at all because that's not who I am. And so often people get mixed up of arguing about, no, I don't have a purple shirt on.

When, why would you ever argue with that? It's that quote by Abraham Lincoln that I love, if never argue with a fool because an onlooker can never know the difference. Right? And so it's knowing, no, I know exactly who I am and what I'm wearing. And this sort of speaks to the fact that your reaction determines how onlookers will interpret everything that's happening. Like, you know. Oh, the worst thing you could do to somebody who insults you is laugh. I mean, what does it do? I mean, it infuriates them, right? But same thing with a bully. A bully says something to you that they know was meant to hurt you.

And if I were to turn around and say, did you say that to embarrass me? I mean, what are they going to do? They could say yes, they could say no. Either way, you're realizing I'm not getting get any reaction. What you're showing them is, for you to do this, it's just not going to be fun for you. It's going to be zero fun whatsoever for you. And so they'll find that with somebody else. It's always your reaction that's going to determine how the conversation goes forward.

There's a lot of people listening right now that are a long way. away from that. Very easily triggered, seeking justice, you know, whatever it might be. For those people, is it like a muscle they have to build? Or is there, what is the journey to getting to this level of sort of mastery? It's a discipline. It is in the same way that people invest in so many other things in our life. We invest in our health. We invest in self-help books. We invest in the podcast that we listen to. It is the same. You have to invest in your communication. We don't get taught in school. We don't, you know, I went to law school.

People think I learned this in law school. No. Law school teaches you how to read the law. It doesn't teach you how to read people. You had to, to me, if you or somebody that is in a position of expertise and to share something, it either came at great personal cost or you're making it up. Like, it is something that you have learned, right? That's true.

And so, I mean, whether it's through skill, knowledge, training it's i've you want to know how that i know these things because i've lived it you know i i have been on the bad side i've been on the good side and it's it is not it's never something that's just going to come to you we are emotional creatures and we're hormonal creatures so how do how do you think about our emotions our hormones our health our physical cognitive state as it relates to like walking into the courtroom and being ready like how much of it you know because if i've had zero hours sleep and I'm, I don't know, hungry and whatever else, and I've had an argument and I'm stressed about something. It's going to be significantly harder to show up and be a great

communicator and win the argument against somebody. Right. So do you think about these things? All the time. I mean, the emotions are right. They're connected to the words. And how do you prepare to be ready for battle? It's an emotional awareness of how I'm feeling and also how the other person is. Because if I just respond, if I respond to their emotional reaction, I'll miss it every time. Same thing in relationships.

If I respond to the reaction, I'll lose that moment to actually speak to the need. So even in the courtroom for me, if I know that I'm a little sleepy, I know I'm a little hungry, I'm a little grumpy, you know what, I can either try and pretend that I'm not,

or I might get up, friend the jury, and say, good morning, everybody. I have to admit you, I'm a little grumpy. I didn't need all that much this morning. Anybody else grumpy? And then everybody starts to kind of nod. And now, hey, we all kind of relate, not to my words, but now to the feeling. And now you trust me more. I trust you more because I'm being more authentic.

And do you think people should do that in their own interpersonal relationships, which is just call out their state? Absolutely. Because perfection is not relatable. Struggle is. emotions are. If I were to come to you and say, and you say, how are you?

And I go, good, everything's good. When it is not, am I being authentic or am I being fake? But if I were to say, let me tell you, I've had a morning and it's tested me in a way I was not expecting, and my mind is just not here. Does that make you trust me more or trust me less? Trust you more.

Every time. So when you can share your struggles with people, I'm not talking about your deep most inner desire struggles, I'm saying, let me put it this way. Sierra and I check in with each other every morning. It's my wife. And it's only about 10 minutes after she drops the kid off, kids off. And we kind of run through how we're doing.

And the number one thing she asks me or tells me, he goes, you told me a lot about what you're doing. You haven't told me about how you're feeling. And that's the truth of the default. I think of a lot of men and a lot of people. I'm going to tell you what's going on, what's on my agenda, what I'm doing. I haven't told you a lot about how I'm feeling. And we store all that stuff up because it's still there.

But if I can share with you, what is my struggle, what's happening? Not just the good, but more importantly, the bad, I mean, it's always going to bring that authenticity into the play. Women and men are very different in many ways. We're very different in many ways. Men are, I don't know, it feels like men just, you know, again, I'm stereotyping here, so it's not all men and people are different. But just speaking generally, the stereotype is that men are typically a bit more emotionally composed or, shall I say, flat, and women have more emotional fluctuations. One could look at hormone changes throughout the month and talk about why that might be, et cetera, et cetera. I've had many scientists here talk to me about hormone fluctuations and how that impacts how someone feels.

But what this means in our romantic relationships is sometimes we meet each other on very different wavelengths. Yeah. So in my relationship, my partner's probably seen me cry once. Right. In seven years, maybe twice, but probably once. I've probably seen her cry 500 times, maybe more. Yeah. So it feels, it almost feels like, and it's going to be completely honest because I just think it's helpful.

So you can fuck me up online if you're only bit. It sometimes feels like we're a different species. Like the way that I interact with my guy friends and the way that the sort of wavelength that my romantic partner and my girlfriend operates on are very, very different. So it's very easy to like misunderstand. And we spend a lot of time talking about how men need to be more emotional and more, I don't know, men need to change how they are

because it's the problem. But what about the, like what about, about the other side of that, which is, do women also need to think about, do we need to meet in the middle? It's what I'm saying. There's certainly a space to meet in the middle. Like, he's right in that. I don't know. Is there a person that's right in this configuration? Am I meant to be way more emotional and be, or is she meant to be way more composed? Because I think that's often how both sides feel. They feel like, why aren't you kind of? coming to my wavelength on this issue.

But I think here's what you're missing. She would be much more composed if you would be more emotional. Hmm. And so a lot of the times what I find in my own marriage is when I show emotion, the more composed she is.

I mean, if I start screaming and crying, I think my girlfriend's going to... I'm not saying screaming. I'm saying show emotion. What kind of emotion? Of being in it with her. And what does that look like? That means you're going to say

things that make her feel it, there's a difference if I just go static. That's what happens to me a lot, truthfully, is let's say we're in an argument about something or something came up, and see you're as emotional about it. If I dismiss it, okay, this is so dumb. Really? Right now, this is, because arguments never come at the most opportune time. They come at the worst possible time. Yeah, that's, hello, that's all relationships. If I dismiss it, right, does that make a make her come closer to me or further away from me. And if I'm pushing her further away from me, why would she not be more emotional? Why would she not be further away from me if I dismiss that?

For every woman to be more emotional as a man, tears are not necessary. Connection is, being in it, is saying things that make her feel, that you're genuinely feeling it. The difference I find with men and what I struggle with is I can, can say that I'm sad. I have a hard time expressing sad. I can say that I'm really regretful. I have a hard time expressing that. I think that is something that happens a lot with most relationships, and I think that happens a lot with men of we were emotional, and we got taught early that you are not to cry. I couldn't even tell you how many times I ever saw my dad cry. I think this is it. The modeling we had as well is my dad.

That was either angry or completely static. And when I say angry, he was very, very rarely angry. Right. But when I saw him engage with my mom on an emotional level, it would be him yelling back. Right. If he wasn't yelling back, he was completely just like, he was just very calm, static, but emotional. There was no in between. Yeah.

It all comes down to repair. How quickly you get to repair. That means, can I validate the feeling that she has? Validation is repair. It's not weakness, it's repair. In my world, relationships don't fall apart because of one big failure. They fall apart because of a hundred moments where repair could have happened, and it didn't, where you just chose not to. Or you could have said, I'm sorry, but you withheld it.

I could have chose to validate how you're feeling, but I could have chose to validate how you're feeling, but I said that's stupid. And it's those, the hundreds of those little bitty moments where all of a sudden, no wonder your world's apart. Because you chose in those little bitty moments not to do the repair because you said, ah, this is so stupid, this is so small. Yeah, it is small. All the more reason why you should repair pretty quickly.

And so when you can validate those concerns, even when you say she's being emotional, you're not, when you go into that static mode, when I go into that static mode, It's a choice by me to do something different, not say the thing I always say, not be dismissive, not find ways to try and convince her that she shouldn't feel this way. But if I validate, if I say things like, I can see how you feel that way. If that's how you interpreted it, you know what, I don't blame you for feeling that way. I can see that. That sounds scary.

That sounds frustrating. If I can choose that, it's this, like, this isn't the key for me. And trust me, I'm talking to myself here. Yeah. All right? Because every guy I feel I can be like, okay, this is right in. If I can make the hard choice in that moment to put aside my frustration, just for a moment, put aside my personal frustration and validate the feeling and say words that speak to her need,

need to feel heard, the need to feel safe, the need to feel like she's not being too much, then all of a sudden, it all shrinks. And you know what? My frustration kind of goes away. Why? Because everything's better now. We've had moments of repair. And then if I still am really frustrated, then I can bring it up. Hey, can I bring up something to you that you said that's really bothering me? And then you do. How, as a man, do you know that you're not setting a bad presidents for the future. And what I mean here is if I constantly, you know, justify how she's feeling and I seek repair and then when she's happy, I just let it go. There's, I think sometimes there's a worry as a man that if you just lay down and take everything, then you're just going to

get more stuff in the future. Like you're setting a bad precedence for the future of this relationship where sometimes actually, no, I wasn't in the wrong or I know I do disagree with this. Right. And I think I've observed a lot of relationships, especially with some of my guy friends, where because they like never stood up for themselves, they're not like living in a prison. Right. They like never stood up for themselves. Yes. And so they've kind of lost all of their autonomy and agency and control. And they, you know, even when you're listening to this, there's probably people you can think of in your life where the guy has always opted for an easy life in the short term. And now over the long term, he has a really hard one. Yes. And again, men and women. Of course. So this is the

balance I'm trying to understand in your view is, you know, when do you pick the fight? And when do you say, no, that's not versus just laying down and taking it? This is quite personal to me as well because I think my dad did that a bit too much. I think my dad, he never, he never chose the fight. And then I look at how that played out over 20 years. And I'm like, damn, it's completely changed me because it means that I will now go through the conflict and stand up for myself when I hit a place where I'm like, I'm not going to be able to honor that few for the next 30 years. I will stand my ground. Do you know if there's like an area where we might, say my girlfriend's unhappy about a

certain thing I do. Yeah. If I don't think that I'm going to be able to promise to not do that for the next like 10, 20, 30 years, if I, if I'm unwilling to change, I have to stand my ground. Because if I can see today, it's hell tomorrow. Yeah. What I'm hearing, what I'm hearing is fear of. of autonomy, fear of my rights, fear of my dominance. Yeah, like my freedom being.

Yeah, yeah. Well, it's, you wanna hear probably the number one word you'll hear with relationships that are on the brink, it's caged, man feels caged, you know, the man feels caged. And really all that is, it's a lack of confidence of knowing if I, I am willing to do something different than I can't have anything else. So it's thinking in terms of zero sum.

See, both can be true. I can, you can still validate how she's feeling and not at all touch what you still know to be true. So you can still disagree with her. But every time we go into a conversation, We walk in with a need, a need to feel loved, understood. It is always depth. Like you think of like a kid, right, my son, my daughter.

If when she was small and she screamed or she cried or told me no, still tells me no, you know, of all these things. And I just said, no, are you kidding me? You're going to tell me, and you're crying right now, really? And I get all upset when she screams. But with kids, we don't do that. We go, she's hungry, she's tired, she's scared. And we just forget that we're all just big kids. And we all have those, like, hidden needs underneath us.

And so you still can stay in your ground and say, so let's run it. So let's say, for example. A specific example. From my ex-girlfriend, I was on my phone in bed and I was sending a message because there's something going in my business back in the UK. And I was in Asia at the time. Yeah. And she said to me that she wanted to make a rule where there was never any phones in bed, ever.

I could never touch my phone in the bedroom. Right. And as I thought this through, I thought, God, I thought about all the scenarios where I might need to touch my phone in the bedroom. And I realized that what would end up happening is I just wouldn't come into the bedroom. I'd like go and do it in the toilet or the shower or I'd just like, I wouldn't come to bed if I needed to do something on my phone. Right. And so the conversation went where I was like, I realized in this. moment, I had to kind of like not lay down on this issue because I would disappoint her in

the future. I was setting myself up to fail in the future. If I accepted this and made her some kind of promise that, you know, agreed that I wasn't going to touch my phone ever again in the bedroom. And so that was one such example where I'm like, I think I actually need to stand my ground a bit here or I'm setting myself up for a future expectation I can't meet. So in that moment, what did you think her need was? Her need was connection. And she was interpreting me being on the phone in that space as a disconnection in some way. And could it possibly be perceived as that? 100%.

Okay. But it wasn't the phone. It was the, it was me not, it was her not feeling connected. In my view, at that moment in time, in that particular week, because I was so busy in that particular week that I think she was trying to find a symptom or a tool or a guarantee or a promise to express the feeling of disconnection. So that's why I look back on it and go, it was actually something else. That was just a symptom of a feeling she had at that moment in time, probably.

Right. But that was an example where, like, if I'd conceded, it would have, it would not have been sustainable. There would have been more arguments in the future. I'm not saying you concede. I'm saying there are times that if you want the key to the relationship, it is putting her comfort over your inconvenience. So what should I have done in that situation? Give me some advice. Do you think?

Well, you've already kind of named it. One, it's not you saying, the wrong thing to say is, well, you were just on your phone. I mean, you're on your phone all your time. You're on the phone all the time. What are you talking about? And you start arguing because now you're responding to the reaction. You're not addressing the need. If you were to slow down and say, look, I still want to be connected with you.

Is there any kind of place where I can still take care of what I need to take care of and also be connected to you. Or if there's a situation where you say, well, what about this? Before I just get my phone and grab it, I'm going to tell you what I'm doing ahead of time. Or I'm going to ask. Maybe that's where it is.

You don't want to ask. Hey, Greg is supposed to email me some slides or a deck or whatever. Can I check that out real quick? You hear how she's probably going to say yes. But the fact that you are saying, hey, I'm acknowledging our connection right now. And see, it might make you uncomfortable. I don't like anybody telling me what to do.

I don't have to, I don't want to report to anybody. Okay, that's fine. Well, then you just know that connection is always going to be weak. And so you're signing your name to that. I don't think, I mean, I have lots of thoughts on phones and houses and where they should go. But if you were to have, instead of arguing the, what are you talking about? you're on your phone all the time. And instead, said,

I can see how that would make you feel like I'm not paying attention to you and letting her respond to that. And you're saying, look, I don't want to, me being on this, this is not at all me trying to signal that I'm not trying to be here with you. I'm trying to escape on you and have that conversation. And that's where you can say, it is important to me that I have these things. And for me to be able to connect with you and kind of rest my brain, I need to take care of these things.

What's the best way that I can do that? I think then that's when you actually are able to have a conversation of, like, let's make a game plan. That makes sense because if you put your inconvenience over her comfort, she will always discredit that to you. Your bank account will always continue to go low. But if you say, look, I'm willing to do a little bit of inconvenient things to make you feel better. make you more comfortable, I mean, that only grows your account. I mean, that when you have a relationship that can last a whole lot longer. I think I'm slightly traumatized because I think the model that I had of relationships

meant that someone can increasingly sort of encroach on your freedom. Yes. Until you are virtually powerless. I think that's a lot of guys. I've felt that. I've certainly felt that. Yeah. So I try and fight back, and sometimes I think I overdo it.

And this is one such example where actually, objectively, when I hear myself say, she asks me not to, like, being on my phone in bed, I'm like, well, that's kind of a reasonable request, to be honest, like, the bedroom can be a place where we just, like, go on the phones. I could just do it at my office and then come to bed when I'm ready. Right. But I think I get my backup because I've just got so many examples of men who, like, didn't stand up for themselves. Yes.

And then we're rendered powerless down the line. So it's like, if I give you this, then tomorrow you're going to say, maybe, you can't be on my phone in the kitchen. Yeah. And then maybe I can't be in my phone in the bathroom. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I just thought, well, if I just stand up for myself here, then I just hold off the... What I'm not all saying is that the guy go, yeah, sure, that's fine.

And then she asks for something. Yeah, sure, that's fine. And you just, you're super passive with everything. That's where I think you do feel like you're just, you look around, you've given up everything to where you don't feel like I have anything to grab on to. I want to throw in another example that a lot people relate to. A lot of men have, like, a hobby with their guy friends. Right.

Like, watching the football, talking shit in the group chat, I think it's so important to defend those things. Absolutely. Even for her attraction to you. Like, I think I have no evidence to say that this is true or just a feeling. I think to some degree that my partner likes the fact that I'll stand up for myself in certain areas. No doubt. And that I'll say, no, no, no, this is me time. This is for me.

I agree. And I can imagine the opposite, the passivity, or kind of rolling over as being a really, like, unattractive thing. Absolutely. I think where you are laying yourself down or just rolling over, that can be very unattractive. You need to have a backbone. At the same time, you can't be so extreme that your way is the only way. But when you choose to say, no, no, this is, I'm willing to take a stain here, then I think, to me, it sends a signal of strength. Strength of mind, strength of will.

But for me, when you have those things that are your hobbies, the things that you really like, a sign of a good relationship is that she's going to be happy you get to do those because they make you happy even though she might hate it and think it's annoying and it's weird and you're taking up that space in the garage and whatever

but if it makes you happy and they know that this is your space and this is your time because you have to have those things that fill you up right and the truth is the marriage isn't enough, the kids aren't enough your job's not enough you have to have things

that personally for you, by yourself, if your thing is to go to a pond and go feed ducks, go do it, you know, to be able to fill yourself up. If, if, I know for parents, early parents, there's this mindset of I have to be with my kid all the time. I can't ever leave my kid that I need to just be there. But what you find is you'll be so much better when you actually go take care of yourself

and go on that guy's trip. go play that round and go off or whatever it is that's actually going to feed you and fill you up and then I can be there for you all the more. I think some people's partners, they're not like that. Some people are in a relationship where their partner cuts out as much of these things as they possibly can so that they can control their partner. I mean, I think we've all got a friend in a group chat. Oh, yeah.

Who has kind of like seems to have lost all their freedom and their autonomy and agency since they've been in that relationship. They'd say they're on a leash. Yeah, they're on a leash. Like, they can never come to the thing. That's not okay. And it appears to be a consequence of boundaries, like not reinforcing your boundaries early. It appears to me to be a bit of a slippery slope boundaries.

Oh, yeah. Do you know what I mean? Like where you kind of make a concession and because you've made a concession, they're more likely to pursue another concession. Right. And then before you know it, you're behind bars. alone.

Yeah, and frustrated and wondering how you got here. I know we've spoke about boundaries in the past. To me, it ultimately comes down to, am I protecting the priority? So if I know that my marriage is the priority, I'm going to set boundaries that protect that. I mean, for me and my life right now, whether I'm working on a book or speaking or a podcast or whatever, it's, am I setting the boundary up to, be protecting my family and my relationship. So you have to first define what is the priority

here. So if the priority is knowing that we want to be, you and your partner want to be in a relationship and you know, make sure that Thursday is date night. Okay, that's nothing gets scheduled on date night. There's certain things that just aren't movable. The answer is no. And when you can have those really hard nose, it makes feeling the time of everything else all that much easier. But that's, I mean, it ultimately comes down to are you being real about it? Are you being fake about it? In your view, you talk about being nice and being kind. I've heard you talk about this on your podcast.

What's the difference between being a nice person and a kind person, and which one should I aspire to be? Stop being nice at the expense of being real. So nice is something that we got taught really early on. Hey, be nice. Play nice. And if you believe forever and always that being nice serves you well, you will ultimately serve it. You will people please.

You will only choose to say the nice thing. You will, nice is very surface. If you went on a date with somebody and I was like, how was a date? And you said, she was nice. Yeah, yuck. Yeah. Does that mean that was good? No, of course. But you're wanting to say the nice thing. And so it becomes very much about pleasantries of what's something that is politically correct or whatever it is. Kind is very deep. It's related to the word kin. It's connection. So where nice is concerned about surface, kind is worried about connection. So nice people say, oh, I can't tell them the truth. wouldn't be nice. That wouldn't be nice. I can't say that. Kind says, I care about you enough to say the truth. I care about you enough to tell you the truth. So when you have the chance,

don't choose nice at the expense of being real. Choose the kind thing. If you and I were in a conversation and I was like, I could really, I could just go, yeah, man, that sounds great with a decision you're going to make because I just I don't want to upset you that that wouldn't be nice versus me saying Stephen out I have to tell you man this doesn't feel right to me which one's the kind thing of telling you the actual truth it's being authentic to it so a lot of people they they look back and they're just people pleasing that's all they've they've been because they've always chosen what's nice not what's kind you must get a lot of messages from a lot of people pleases all the time and what is it they want from you

They're wanting to know how to stop pleasing other people and to start pleasing themselves. Like, how to always say that there's not a problem with people pleasing as long as you're one of them. You know, of, it's okay to do things that other people ask you to do and you want to serve other people. I'm not saying it as a servitude way of I can never have any of my own voice. it's it's where you constantly are put yourself in inconvenient places for the sake of other people hoping that they will see your true value so they conflate the pleasure of others with the value of themselves and so meaning i mean nothing to myself if you're not happy with me i mean nothing to myself. If I can't please you, you want this? Oh, okay, I'll go get it. But you need this?

Let me do this. Oh, I already thought about this. You love this. And they've forgotten their own sense. And so I've met people that have, you know, a lot of it's also early childhood. Right. They learned that to save the marriage between mom and dad, they need to be everything to everybody. They have to give up. They've missed childhood in order to please everybody else. and so it becomes a pattern of safety. It's a survival skill of knowing for me to survive in this, for me to have worth, well, I can't do it unless everybody else is happy with me. Are there any case studies that come to mind of people that have read your work

and have made real transformations that have shocked you or made you happy or proven to you the profundity of being able to take control of conversation? We took us a survey poll within my membership. And it was already, I think it was like 93% of people with, even in the first three chapters of my book, it had already significantly impacted them in their job, their family, and exactly what they were reading the book for. Because everybody picks it up for the conversation they have in their mind. You know, people don't watch my content to handle, to know how to handle the last conversation. They watched to know how to handle the next one.

And so to be able to provide the results that they're wanting is a blessing. I've just finished writing my third book. I haven't ferned up the title yet, but I have started mocking up some different designs, and I've been doing this with Adobe Express, which is one of our sponsors. What I love about Adobe Express is that it makes it so easy for me to obsess over the tiniest details, the typography, the font, the color, the text placement. The stuff that might sound petty to most people, but actually compounds to create something that stands out, something that's one better than the rest.

And designing my cover art has reminded me of how many creative things I've learned over the year. But it's also reminded me that there are so many creative minds around me that are also sitting on their own secrets. So I've created the one better guide in Adobe Express to bring those tips to you. And in it, you'll find principles from the very, very best in their industry turned into quick and easy practices for you to apply. So you can train yourself to create exactly like the best performing teams in the world do. Just head over to adobe.ly slash one better to download Adobe Express now and make sure you visit the learn tab to discover how you can become one better than the rest.

Is there a particular moment of conflict which stays with you the most when you think about a difficult conversation in your life? Yeah, there was one that I talk about my book that was probably the most gut-wrenching at that time was me leaving the law firm. I was at, having to talk to my dad about leaving that firm. But that's, let's say that's in the book. What's fresh for me now, you want to talk about that? I mean, what's fresh for me now is conversations that I've had with my wife, with Sierra, and I'm having a hard time reaching. And she's having a hard time reaching for me, where I kind of just go static,

where I do feel sad, I do feel remorseful. or I'm trying to, and I have a hard time expressing it. So the best thing I can do in that mind is I use my words to be able to say, you know, I feel regret for what's happened or what I've done. And I may not be shown it right now, but I, this is not something I'm proud of. To be at least able to show in my words how I'm feeling. So let's say, for example, it's about anything related to, if it could be any argument. really with a husband and a wife or a spouse or partner or whatever it is.

But we had one not too long ago where we knew we were going to be traveling for a bit. And sometimes if it's just the two of us, what's going to happen, you're going to have some spats about probably the dumbest things you could probably have a fight about, but that's what happens. And I said to her, I was like, well, if we do this and do that, we're not probably going to argue about it. It's going to be fine. And she said to me, she said, well, either way it's good. Meaning if you don't argue about something great, but if we do argue about it, that's good too, to be able to see it as a chance to understand

each other a little bit more, to know each other a little bit more. And it's not without being radically honest with the person you want to be with and that's hard for a lot of people. I had a friend of mine said to me the other day

that the thing that annoys her most about his wife is just like how long she takes to get ready and he really like offloaded it to me in a way where I'm like this is a problem for him.

Yeah. She just takes so long to get ready and she's like which means they're always late to things a lot of guys can relate to this including myself. But the way he said it to me was surprising

and I remember thinking should he just go and have this conversation with her, or is this like an illegitimate concern to raise? And I think that sometimes because you're talking about your experience with Sierra and her saying, like, either way, it's a good thing, are all arguments warranted? Like, is that argument, you take too long to get ready and it's pissing me off? Is that a valid thing to raise with your partner? And therapy, they say if it's hysterical, it's historical. Meaning, if it's really that big of a a deal, then there's probably something deeper going on.

If it's really affecting you that much, it's like those people who say, well, he's always pushing my buttons. I ask, well, why is there a button? You know, if it's always getting you worked up, there's probably something deeper that you're not noticing. It's probably related to something that happened

when he was a kid, or something that maybe it's, here, let me give a good example. You know, and our marriage, I'm the spender. She's the saver.

She can turn a penny into a dime, right? She can pinch a penny into a dime. And she got really frustrated with me of, like, why do you always need the nicest thing? All right? And that's typically if she has an option of several things, even if I don't know the price tags, I typically end up going with the one that's most expensive

and that infuriates her, right? Because she wouldn't do that. She's going to wait for it to go on sale. She could have something she really, really wants, and she's just going to track it forever in her mind until it goes on sale. And that gives her a satisfaction. Me, let's just go buy it. And I'm not saying I'm crazy, what's what I'm not like some crazy spender.

But this is an issue that has always bothered her and bothered me. And what we had come to find out, we had actually used this with my AI, actually. But what we had come to learn is that the reason why, it affected me so much, like, why do you always use the nice thing? This is related to when I was a kid. As the oldest, I didn't get much of the nice thing. My stuff was typically hand me down from a friend or something else, or I didn't get the nice thing.

And at some point, along the way, you equate that to your sense of worth. And so when I first had the ability to pay for anything for myself, yeah, I bought the on-brand cornflakes. You know, I bought the on-brand medication because to me that was equal to how I wanted others to perceive me. And so when she realized that, oh, it's not just me wanting to splurge or have some kind of, you know, you just think you have to buy the best. It was like, no, that's actually it's a reflection of when you buy me something nice,

I feel like you equate that to how much value I hold. I'm not worth buying something nice for. And so it was related a lot to my stuff. And we got to talk the same about her stuff of why she doesn't want to buy the thing. So it's like that. Having these super conversations with your friend of why does it bother her when she takes forever to get dressed? Well, most likely, it's related to something in his past that's bothered him that he's not seeing. yet. Are the conversation worth having? Yeah, I think it's absolutely worth having. If it's

bothering you that much, yeah. If it's hysterical, it's historical. I think that's a really good point, which is we're all just dealing with other people's inner child. Like, we're all dealing with, it's just like me as a child facing you as a child. I know we look like adults now. I have no gray hair, but it's really still us just playing out the stories and narratives from our childhood oftentimes. You're exactly right. They say in therapy, the worst thing about parents is that they had parents, you know? I mean, they, it's so easy for me just to look at my mom and me forget that she had parents, you know, that what they did to her, rather than me just looking at what my parents have done to me. You know, and, and that's the definition of the

generational cycle, and it's choosing to do something different with, with who you are and who you want to be and how you want to raise the next generation. But we're, it's, it's all, survival skills. It's all childhood trauma that's related to, when people, I have a section in my book of having people define out their own

the communication skills they saw growing up. Because most of the time, if you feel like arguments have to be this big shouting match and everybody's yelling, and it's also typically cultural, you know, of how certain cultures, how they argue, and how

loud it is, and if everybody, versus there's some cultures and families that it's very quiet. Like, I'll never forget going to a friend's house when I was about seven, and his parents, while we're eating cereal, like, just had at it. And I was mortified, like, arguing. Arguing. Arguing. And, I mean, yelling at each other.

And I am, like, Bowlinghan mortified. And my friend is just eating cereal like, hey, I'm bothering him whatsoever. It's just another Tuesday. You know, and whereas I grew up with, if my parents argued, it was going to be in their bedroom. You know, I knew if they were going to, they went to close the door and they were going to have a conversation that they didn't want us to hear. And so everybody has been modeled something different where, like, there's, I've seen it on the negative side where people feel like you don't really love me unless you want to fight with me. it's because that's all they've been modeled. Fights.

They have to say the most hurtful thing. They need to be in tears. They need to be saying horrible things to each other for them to feel any kind of love. And I've also seen it where people are a wallflower. They don't want to say anything. They want to be really hesitant because bad things happen when they spoke out at home.

They realized that telling the truth wasn't good for them. They learned that lies protected them. It's interesting when you have, have one parent that conducted themselves in a certain way and the other parent was the opposite, what then happens to you? Like which communication style you then adopt? Which parent takes more of an interest than you is where it typically goes? The one you're most of the time with. And see, I know people who their parents are kind of absent, but they spend a lot of time with their grandmother. And so I know a guy who, he sounds just like his

southern grandmother from Kentucky, you know, because that's who he spent most of his time with. And so it's who takes the most interest in you. It's where the parents, what I find so interesting in communication, we talk, everything is learned from how we were raised is at one point in time, there was a utility to what you were doing. There's a utility to lie. It protected you, protected maybe your mom, protected maybe your dad. There was utility to it. There was a utility to manipulating, to be able to say things weren't this way in order to keep the family together. So there was a utility to the very skill that you still have, and eventually it catches up with you. What is it about our communication, do you think, that makes us accidentally

disliked by the people? It sounds fake. It sounds fake. And how does it sound fake? Give me some color. If you want to know the secret, if somebody's being fake with you, there's really three things that you got to know. Number one, it's what I call bestie bombing. Bestie bombing. Yeah. So instead of like love bombing, it's bestie bombing. I have people who come to me all the time of, I feel like somebody's being fake with them. And what they're doing is it's, oh my gosh, we're literally the same person. I think we're best friends. We just met. Like I just, we, or you're talking about we're just standing next to each other at the same. party and they're like, oh, we've got to go, oh my gosh, you're my best, you're my soulmate.

And it's like they give way too much right out of the gate of how much they love you. Ah, yeah. And it's, it's nothing, it's not what secure people do. Secure people don't attach to you instantly. Is that a form of manipulation? No, it's a form of insecurity. It's a form, because if it would be manipulation if they actually meant it. But they don't.

It's these inauthentic relationships that all of a sudden, it's like, oh, my gosh, we're going to be best friends. I love you so much. And you're like, I don't even know your last name. What are you talking about? So you see that a lot. Two is the over compliments. We all have this sixth sense to be able to sniff out if that's real or not. Like nobody needs to teach you if it's a fake laugh.

or not. You know what I mean? Like, yeah. I don't know. Was that real? I'm not, Stephen. It's so funny, yeah, because we think we can spot everyone else's fake laugh

and not can spot us. Exactly. Yeah, that's exactly right. It's like, but nobody had to teach that to you. Nobody had to say, hey, if you hear it like this, it's a fake laugh. No, no, no. We all, as humans,

we have an ability, a sense, to go, and that didn't sound real. That's not a real smile. You know, people have their, like, photo smile and their real smile. and the same with the laughter or like that's not that wasn't that funny or they over compliment something they compliment your shoes I mean and then they have really oh my gosh I love that outfit and then all of a sudden they've turned their head you know what I mean they're not really

truly engaged in what it is it's just it's it's a ritual to them of that's how they've learned because to me if you have to perfectly curate yourself this the sense of perfection You're not getting the real human. You're getting a person in character. You're getting them in and seen. You know, they have to, like, get into it. And so it's something that's so fake every single time. And then the third that you have to watch out for

are the people that aren't willing to actually have an interest in you. Meaning they never ask anything about you. they're only wanting to talk about themselves. Like, have you ever been in a, I know you have, and you're networking in a big room and somebody's looking at you and all of a sudden they're looking at the room. Like they're looking for who they're going to talk to next. And you've lost them.

And so it's like, why we're both just kind of here saying things, you're going to slow down our words, so it's not as awkward. And you say things like, yeah, that's crazy. Yeah, and like while you're both looking for somebody else to talk to, but that's what happens. You realize you come out of focus and they're looking for the next person. A really surprising point of feedback or a compliment, someone gave me once.

And it's surprising because I never considered it to be something that people were noticing is when I do like meeting greets, and you're meeting, say, 100 people before or after a talk or whatever, and they're coming up one at a time, I will get DMs in the preceding days of people telling me that they liked the way that they watched me pay attention. to someone else. Do you get this? All the time. Yeah. They're watching. They're watching how interested you are in the person that's talking to you. And I didn't, I didn't, obviously it's not something I thought about before until

probably had about 20 messages over the last year or two from people saying, and do you know what I noticed, Stephen, how much you were paying attention to the person that spoke to you. Right. Not to them. Exactly. They were in the line waiting, but it's the person, and I just thought that's so interesting that we judge other people by how they interact with other people while we're watching as well. Right. And that being interested is seen as makes you likable, I guess. Presence is the highest form of authenticity.

I can talk to you, but am I here with you? Do I have my eyes with you? Am I interested in you? Am I going to, am I easily distracted? Am I have my phone? Am I really paying attention? Or am I making sure that you know you are the most important thing? that's happening in this moment, even if it's a glimmer.

And even if it's for 30, 20 seconds and you're doing a meet and greet and you're saying hi or you're signing their book, do you ask them their name, do you use their name? Do you look at them with intent of true, genuine thank you for being here? None of this would happen if not for you. People are watching the whole time and they know. I mean, it's such a, it's like what you know it when you feel. it kind of thing. And to me, it's presence. Am I truly here with you? Because even at the house, you know, you can say, well, I'm home all the time, but are you just looking on your phone?

Are you just sitting on the couch? Are you always reading? Are you, that's not presence? I'm going to play this video on the screen for anyone that's watching the video. But it immediately made me think of this clip that went viral of Marley Cyrus and Amy Campbell. I haven't seen this. they were doing a meet and greet together and they were just chatting to each other and kind of ignoring the fans

and you can... It's right behind you. One, two, three. There you go. And I just remember thinking this is like the antithesis of what we've just said. It's painful to watch.

I know it's painful for the people. I mean, it's several layers of where one, it's in an area of really little forgiveness. You know, if you think of somebody of her caliber, so to say, of like her celebrity, right? Seen thousands, millions, it's happened, and is there really room for just having a conversation with somebody? Like, if you're her, how do you, what would be the justification, right? If you could just pause and say, what is it? Maybe you say, well, there isn't any.

Okay, that's fine. But let's say, one, when it comes to presence, there's really not any room for forgiveness. It's either you're present with them or you're not because this kind of thing can last forever. Second of all, people will forget what you did, but they'll never forget how you made them feel. And people will remember you, Stephen, of they will tell their kids and their grandkids of the time that they met you, you and how nice you were, how present you were, and how you were genuinely interested in them. And that makes all the difference. If you have one slip-up, that's when I say it's not very forgivable. When you have one slip-up, it's showing applied to all. Because if you can do it

to them, you can do it to me. The slip-up will also travel much further. Faster, too. Yeah, faster. Because I guarantee you, you know, you think of all the meet and greets that somebody like that has had, and it's had genuine real interest. They mess up one time, they get tired one time. Well, then all of a sudden, that's what travels way faster. So, but the thing is that that's why I say presence is the highest form of authenticity, because if you can take that moment to be truly interested in somebody, because who am I? You know, I'm a guy from a small town who made videos in my car, and you're going to come to my book signing, and you traveled, and you flew in two hours? Why would I not? Hold up. Take the line. Let me spend three minutes with you. Can I give

three minutes of my life to talk to you? What are you doing here? And so when you have that humility, and there's several people, I know you know many names, of they forgot how they got what they got. Oh, yeah. I have a really interesting example of this recently where we appointed new chairman to our company. He's called Nicky. And incredible guy. He's been at, like, he's been procter and gamble doing product for, I don't know, 12 years, then went to Boston Consulting Group and was one of the senior figures at Boston Consulting Group for 25 years. And, you know, he's in the home stretch of his career. And he joined our company. And he is, you know, he's achieved so much. He's worked with the biggest, the best in the world globally.

So he's got the right, one would say, to be a certain way. That's what someone might say. But I'm over here in Los Angeles. He joins the company as chairman. And the interesting thing, the interesting feedback I got, I know, 5,000 miles away, was a very junior member of the team came up to me and said, oh, I love Nicky. And I was like, explain.

And he went, he sat down with me. and gave me an hour of his time. That was the reason he loved him. That was it. That was it. It was presents. And what I later found out was that Nikki went into the company and there is hundreds of people and he sat down with every single one of them, regardless of whether you're an intern

or whether you're the CEO. And it's always stayed with me how much that has mattered, how much that has shaped his perception, just disproportionately he's brilliant and everything, but disproportionately shaped his perception just by giving someone the most valuable. thing, which is just their time. Yes. And I'm, I mean, maybe it's a story of how to be a good partner. Maybe it's a story of how to be, you know, in the public eye.

Right. Maybe it's also a story of how to be a great colleague or team member or a leader. Yeah. Or just a great human. Yeah. I think there is, when you're always in the habit of giving, giving then feels a lot like receiving. So when I'm giving my time, it also feels like I'm receiving.

that time back, when I can continually have that spirit and you have that knowledge of humility, and they say, what does humility mean? It means you realize that you are just as weird and terrible as everybody else. When you realize I'm the chief worst person there is, I'm not better than a single person that is in line to do or attend something or sit in an audience. I am no better. I've just been through a lot, still been through a lot, and so I know a lot. And when you have that mindset of, I want to meet and touch every single person, if I were to come in here and only talk to you, but not talk to your team, what do you think that's going to do? When you can go somewhere and not just talk to who's the most popular,

but also talk to who's the least like it's it is a you will always get way more and for yourself and for the other person when you can lower yourself to say hey we're just humans in a room how's it going it's interesting that we um we're figuring people out by how we observe them vicariously we're talking about it in the context of like a meeting greet a second ago yeah what you said there tracks perfectly with that which is when you walked in the room you didn't just speak to me you also asked Berta, who's recording the podcast today, what her name was. And then you said to Berta, you said, thank you for doing this. Right.

Now, isn't it funny that I remember? Yeah. Isn't it funny that that was like two and a half hours ago? And I remember because it was really memorable to me that you did that. Because not everybody does that. Not everybody will, you know, notice that Baird is in the room with us and she's running all these cameras and she's putting it together. But for some reason, just before we started recording, you made a point of asking her what her name was and then thanking her for doing this today. Yeah.

Most people don't do that. And as you walk away from today, I'm not going to remember that you walked in and said something nice about me or whatever. The most shocking thing, and therefore the most memorable, because it is the most unusual, because it is typically the most overlooked, is you acknowledging the other people.

And I've noticed this as a paradox that I almost need to put words to. But I remember something I wrote a long time ago saying how you, useless absurdity will define you more than useful practicality. And what I mean by that is the example I was giving was in the context of my old gym, where they have this massive climbing wall in the entrance. And I came home to my girlfriend and said,

there's this incredible gym, it's massive. They even have a hundred foot climbing wall in the entrance. What I'm doing is I'm pointing at the most absurd thing to give you a shortcut that tells you everything about that gym. Now, if I point in the most absurd thing, you know the gym is big. Oh, I got chills. Yeah, yeah. Do you know what I mean?

Yes. If I say there's 100 foot climbing wall, you know there's lots of running machines. Right. So if I, when I leave here and go, he was so nice. He even spoke to Bertrand and thanked her for doing the podcast. I'm using that as a shortcut because it's the most standout absurd thing to tell other people everything about you. Yes. I love that.

And this is why we should value the seemingly petty and seemingly small and seemingly inconsequential. Because other people don't. Therefore, it creates maximal impact. Yes. That's why the big conversations rarely matter. The small ones do. It's the small ones with strangers. It's the conversations you don't have on the stage.

It's the conversations you have in your driveway. It's the conversations you have in your backyard at the coffee shop. It's the conversations you have somebody passing by in the elevator. Like, it's those, that's what defines the human experience. If I were to text you a compliment, right? That's one thing. But if I were to say, hey, I just finished lunch with so-and-so, who you also know, I've got to tell you, this person loves you so much.

And I share with you what they said about you, you're going to take that differently. If I wanted to give you, let's say if somebody wanted to give me a gift, right? But instead, they didn't give it to me. They gave it to my kids. I mean, that's how much more would that define how much they care, right? It's anytime I go on a stage, I make it a priority that I know the guy who's, or girl who's putting on my, the AV system, the lapel mic, the everything. I want to know their name. I don't know how many times they've done this today, how they're doing,

because it's so easy just to turn and keep talking to who's important and act like they're just doing it. When you can truly talk to the people, that's just a regular person and forget that you don't have to just stick to the somebodies. You don't have to look always for the somebodies. I used to say that, again, this comes from employing a lot of people, that we all have invisible PR. and it shows up in the moments that matters the most,

but it's built in the moments that seem to matter the least. Yeah. And the example I always think of is working in the New York office many years ago and getting a message from my team member just saying, oh, Jenny's so nice. She just Tim tripped over and Jenny immediately got up from her desk and ran across to the first aid kit and sorted him out. She's so nice.

And I'd hear that 3,000 miles away. And then a year later, I'd be sat with Jenny during her, promotion conversation. Yeah. And that one thing she did, that small thing she did, was often the time where I'd go, do you know what, this person is a certain type of person and we should double down in them. And then I've got the opposite as well.

I've got a little thing someone did to someone who was not necessarily their line manager or significant. Yeah. And even things that happened to me years ago, when I came up to, I walked up to someone famous. I've told this story before. It's so crazy. I told this story in the podcast like episode three. And no one listened. And then

like three, four years later, the podcast got bigger and people started listening to people go back to the old episodes. And this famous person tweeted me like four years later. I was like, I heard you're talking about me in the UK, blah, blah, blah. But I was just sharing it as an example for like Invisible PR where someone,

I'd gone up to someone famous and asked them a question and they just like, bang. Yeah. Like, made into me. Right. And I, you know, I don't know what they're going through that day, but it always, you know. But that's, but that brings it around like full circle, because like we just said, you could have those little moments where it's, it's the rock wall, right?

Where little moments of connection, of presence, of real authenticity of them being with you that you'll remember forever. And I bet, if I had to guess, there's a moment in Stephen at the playground growing up that or a teacher, somebody in your life said something that was nice and you've remembered forever. Oh, yeah. But I would also venture it a bit. Yes, before you even said, I thought of the moment. Oh, okay.

Playground Stephen, where somebody said something hurtful or rude or said something about how you look or your appearance, maybe not even recess, but sometime in your life. Oh, yeah. And it was just something maybe it was about, for a lot of people, it's like their weight. or their appearance or their looks, and they've carried that around with them forever. And that, like, without knowing it, that person gave you an insecurity for the rest of your life.

And so it's so wild to me how the positive is remembered, the negative is remembered much longer and travels a lot farther. And, I mean, it's, when I ask that to a group that I'm talking to, there's hands that are always way more raised for the negative, for the one thing that the power of your words lasts way longer than you'd ever think. The ripple effect will affect people you've never met. I mean, you think of the people who you've touched

and the people you've never met, but yet they have a perception of you based three persons down. Right? And how I talk to my kids will affect how they talk to their kids and their kids. Children I'll never meet. And when you realize that how I talk to the person behind the cashier affects how he or she talks to their kids when they go home.

Based on what I said, we'll determine whether they come home and say, I had a really bad day. I had a really hard day. And it's because of what I said, because I was rude or I was impatient because they didn't get it to me fast enough. And all of a sudden, without knowing, just as much as the positive last, so does the negative. It's now what I chose to say is responsible for how they're treating them. for how they're treating their own kids. And that's how we are as humans, right? Like, the reason why we survived is because we're good at gossip.

That too. We're good at passing on stories. So, you know, I could tell people before they met you if you were a risk. No, yeah. I could, you know, don't go near him. Don't go near that cave. The threat. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

A person in there that's going to kill us. Right. It's a survival adaptation, I guess, in some respects, to be gossipy and to pass on people's reputations. But we've always asked, what's the news? You know, people going through town from town to town. you didn't really have a paper. It's, do you have any news?

So I'm going to push you to close, to give me the five things that you think are most important for anyone who's striving to be a masterful communicator, conversationalist, to get what they want out of life, which is really what I think is the last domino when we talk about body language or communication tactics, all the things we're talking about. I think people are trying to get something out of life, whether it's to have a better relationship or to, be respected or get a promotion to be successful. I think that's probably the output we're

looking for ultimately. Do you agree with that? I don't want to, like what is it that? What's the last domino that people are looking for when they talk about this stuff up here? Self-worth. Self-worth, okay. Am I enough? Am I enough? Okay. So what are the five most important things to summarize? If you had to give me five. The first is oftentimes, If I cannot be genuine with you, if I cannot be real with you, then I can be nobody to you. And on authenticity, you know, in your bad day, are you still authentic at work? Yes. Like if you're really, you know, having a bad day, do you show up to work as your authentic self?

I would say yes. I mean, there's obviously certain parameters that are within social norms of just because I'm having a bad time and in a bad mood, does that give me a right to rip you a new one just because you said hello to me that morning. You know, no, but I think that there is certainly a space to say don't act like you're happy when you're not. What about lying? Is that a violation of authenticity? So colleague comes up to me, they say, what do you think of my new haircut and you think

it's terrible? Yeah. What do you say? It's an interesting choice. Probably is what I'd say. So you wouldn't lie? No, I wouldn't. I would probably change it to where it's, I'm glad that they like it.

You know, I don't have to like it for you to give any type of worth. If you like it, that's awesome. And authenticity as a strategy builds trust over time, so that's a long-term game, I guess. Yeah, no, I came across some research recently where it was in social settings. Those that are more authentic are also the ones that are more trusted and the ones you want to be around more. Why do people struggle with authenticity? It goes back to this point about people-pleasing, I guess. But there is a certain type of person, I think,

that probably struggles to just be, you know, just to show up in all the ways that they are to be themselves. They grew up in places that weren't safe, whether physically or emotionally. They grew up unsafe. And so they're always tense. They're always anxious. They're always worried.

about the next shoe to drop. They can't rest. You see people that had come from very hard, harsh environments. You'll see the survival skills that have come out of that. It's because they simply didn't have a place to be safe. Number two. Reduce the amount of distraction. Reduce distraction.

Is that the same as saying, like, increase presence? Well, that is the benefit of it. Yeah. If you want to increase your presence, you have to eliminate distractions. And that means eliminate how often you're on your phone. I've got some thread here. Do you know why this is here? Yes.

Well, you explain. Well, I mean, so just a piece of very pretty red string. And this string is going to represent the connection between the two of us. So I give you the end of it. What I just gave you was a piece of string, and it connects between your hand and my hands, and it's taught right now. So this string right now represents the connection between us and conversation. It's tight. It's very tight.

I'm going to ask questions throughout this that don't think about what the right answer is. Just go with your gut instinct of how it feels. So right now, it's tight. And if I look at you in the eye and I say, Stephen, how's it going, man? It's going good, yeah. What was something that frustrated you yesterday? My haircut didn't go to plan. Tell me about it.

It's just not good. It's not good. I don't like it. Do you find that some of the biggest struggles you had yesterday was mostly with business or personal or tell me something with business? Struggles with business yesterday. Oh, go ahead. Okay, so you're on your phone now. and the connection has been reduced. Yeah, so I just pulled out my phone, and now I'm looking, and what did you feel in the line? I felt like the tightness went. It went loose.

Yeah, it went slack. But that's the physical. What is emotionally how did that feel? It felt disrespectful. Yeah. And see, if I had just both had both hands on it, like this. Now, let's put it taught again, and I'm talking to you, and I say, so what are you looking forward to this weekend? I'm looking forward to... No, go ahead. And this is me just turn.

It's still tight. Don't worry. I still am connected to you. You know, don't worry about it. I'm right here. Go ahead. Yeah. Exactly.

You see how all of a sudden you wanted to let go now? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, for anybody listening. So we both had it tight. I look at my phone while still holding tight where I'm saying, no, no, I'm listening. Go, go right ahead. And all of a sudden, you are the one that let go of the line. Yeah.

Isn't that something because all of a sudden, you gave up on the conversation? You didn't want to be in it anymore. What do you typically do if somebody's at dinner with you and they pull out their phone? I mean, you look away or you can speak to someone else. Or you pull out your phone. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly. It's like they've given you permission to now pick up their phone.

Somebody gets on theirs and you don't want to look awkward or odds. You normally get out yours. The next thing you know, both of you are on your phones at dinner. We were supposed to be communicating with each other and you're just staring at your phone. I think, I sometimes think this with me being an interview, having this iPad in front to me, I'm like, should I get rid of the iPad? Maybe I should. Because I write things down while someone's speaking to me, and I do worry sometimes that

if I'm like looking at a particular point or fact or whatever, that I'm... It's a little bit different. So there's a part of this that is, it's a production, we have cameras, we have lights. Like this isn't a normal, just if you and I were having coffee. But let's say you and I were having lunch. and I'm talking like this to you and I put my phone right here. Do you feel a difference?

Yeah, I do, yeah. Do you feel I'm more connected or less connected? Less connected. Yeah, and if I... I'm amongst priorities, not the priority. Do you feel any different if I'd flip it over? Yes, I do. And my face is down.

Yes, I do. Now, it's a signal of... That you think this is more important and you don't want to be distracted. Imagine what would you feel like if you were on a date or got together with a friend and you just said

hey where's your phone he said oh I just left it in the car I just wanted to sit with you yeah it's incredible does anybody do that no no nobody does that but imagine imagine if right now

there was let's say a woman is about to go on a date and she asked the guy where's your phone and he goes oh I left it in the car I mean what kind of you think he was kind of weird yeah almost like

what? You mean you want to be solely interested in me? I'm signaling that there's nothing else more important than what's going on right here. That's such atypical behavior. Some people might see it as a red flag. That's probably true. But if I have right here, even if I put it face down on the table and I'm talking to you, I'm at least still having my world, my business, my stress, my chaos. It's my, it's my pacifier. You know, you're not going to ask me to take away my blanket, are you? Yeah, yeah, exactly. And so it's still there in the conversation with us. So even if I put it down, or I put it with my legs, or I put it in my pocket, which I think is much better of not letting it come out at all. But it's, what's the strength of the connection? Because we've all been that person like we just showed with the string where they get out their phone while you're talking and like, yeah, yeah, right? Go ahead. And you go, I don't want this. You let go because it's like, this isn't real connection. So if you want to be a better communicator, you have to understand the definition of true connection. That's keeping it taught.

I'm so shocked when I go to restaurants with my girlfriend, because we have a rule, and this is actually a rule that I completely agreed with. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which is like, when we go on a day or we go to a restaurant, there's no phones. Exactly. We're not going to be on our phones in a restaurant. It's mind blowing. Mind blowing.

We went to, when we were, we've been here all this week, and we went to a restaurant, I was here and I saw so many couples and people and friends that were just, at the table and it was dark evening and all you see it's a glow of phones is everybody just sitting there on their phone it's just, it's crazy to me or the people that are on their couch

with the TV on and both of them are on their phones and they're supposed to be watching a movie together you know everyone people watches a little bit in restaurants yeah I'm not going to pretend we don't yeah they're just like I'm not going to do that yeah yeah but so we will be in a restaurant and we just sometimes play a little game where we kind of guess

how long people have been together based on how they're behaving. Oh, I like that. Yeah, that's fun. And so it tends to be the case that it's the younger couples where there's a man and a woman and they're both on their phone. And I just can't believe what I'm seeing. Yeah, it's pretty wild. I got my phone a lot. But if I'm on a date, I am not going to be sat there looking at a screen

while she sat there looking on a screen just in total silence. Even if I've known this woman for 35 years. Yeah. It's become so much of an emotional pacifier. When I don't like the angst of having to wait in line by myself, I don't like having to sit on the subway or the tube or the metro or whatever by myself. I get out my phone. It prevents me from having to have dialogue.

So instead, I'd rather just look at my phone and watch and scroll versus communicating. Imagine waiting for your haircut, and everybody in the room is actually talking to one another like they used to. it would just be wild to you. Everybody in a doctor's office in the waiting room, everybody's looking at their phone. So, yeah, to me, it's such a distraction. And that means even at the house, too, I think even more so when it comes to the house. So that was point number two, which was reducing distraction and therefore increasing presence. Three, stop over explaining. You have to invest in the right words, meaning if you are constantly just, gushing words the whole time does it make you want to listen to that person more or less oh yeah

i mean you just kind of discount it yeah yeah all of a sudden it's it's kind of like the that story about the boy who cried wolf like you you talk so much that the message gets lost if i'm always talking a lot it's easy to tune it out it's like it becomes its own static but if you choose your words if i'm going to slow down so how do you How do you stop yourself from over-explaining? Instead of being a waterfall, be a well. Meaning rather than trying to gush out information, get them swept away in your message,

you have a confidence in holding your knowledge. If they have a question, I'll ask. You're available for the question should they want to ask. I'm going to give you always exactly what you need if I choose to be a well with my information rather than just gushing. Because when I over-explain, all somebody's doing is indicating that I don't really know if I believe what I'm saying

or you believe what I'm saying, so I need to say more. I notice there's such power in when someone asks you a question, taking a moment to think, and actually sometimes I notice some people will actually say, let me just think about that. And the minute they do that, I am immediately doing the opposite of discounting what they say. I'm now actually at bated breath to think about, to hear this very thoughtful, considered thing they're about to share with me. Whereas you see a lot of people do the opposite, the minute they're asking. anything. It's just like the floodgates open. And they start filling the silence with,

and they start thinking out loud. Exactly. They're the external thinkers. What I teach is let your first word be your breath, meaning when you put a breath where the first word should be, everything else flows. If I start gushing, what I'm signaling is, you know, I don't, most people wait until they're talking. to figure out what they want to say. Yeah. And so they say, well, what I mean to say is,

well, I say all that to say because they're still trying to figure it out. But if you were to ask me a really hard question, and rather than having that knee-jerk reaction, I go, that's a good question. Let me think. Then you're going to be, you're going to be in it. You're going to know whatever is about to come out

has actually been thought about, is actually going to be something you want to listen to. Now you're going to be more curious. Now you wait with bait of breath of what's going to happen. So when you think of business meetings, the person who goes, oh, actually, you know, I disagree with that. If you look at our latest studies and they just start, blah, la, la, versus when somebody asks, you know, Stephen, what do you think? And you go, and you just hold that silence. It's like a cliffhanger.

Everybody wants to hear what you said. People who are confident, they don't have to say something. to show they know something. They choose their moment. They choose their timing. It appears there are also the people that are most likely to turn around and say, I don't have the answer to that.

Yep. People who are truly confident know they don't always have to get it right. They know that they will get it wrong. Confident people, confidence does not mean you have to know all the answers. Confidence means you know that you don't. When you have the confidence of knowing,

I don't know everything, all of a sudden, you sound a lot more real. There's also something about you just being the type of person that's willing to sit in silence, but also just take up more space and time. That signals respect. The very fact that you would have the audacity to say, someone asks me a question,

and I go, hmm, let me just think about that for a second. It means that I'm not, you talked about rushing earlier. I don't rush. And there's something quite aura about that. There we go. About the fact that you're not the type of person that can just take seven seconds. Right.

Because you are. You're kind of stealing seven seconds from everyone there. Right. So that you can think. And you would think that the harder the issue, the more time that is necessary. You would think. And instead, everybody's equated it to immediate. I think when, let's say we're on a ship and we're in the middle of a storm,

who's the person that they all look to to say, I'm freaking out, I'm scared. but the captain isn't. You know, this person knows, she knows. And we're constantly looking for that person in times of emotional stress. We're wanting someone to, you know, I'm too anxious, but I can go to this person because in times of crisis,

they say you walk, don't run. You know, I'm, when I act like I've been there before and I've seen this, I'm telling everybody else, oh, well, all if he's not, Worried, I shouldn't be worried. If he's not upset, I don't have to be upset. A lot of doctors, a lot of professionals that deal with conflict and crisis management, it's their job to be as calm as could be. Because if they reacted in a way that set you off or sit you on edge,

then there's no, there's no anchor. And then it's a bad place to be. But yeah, just having that, let me think about that for a second, has a different tune of, oh, wow, this person they know who they are they I don't rush that's just not what I do it reminds me of every time I've had turbulence on a plane and I've looked at the flight attendant to see if this thing is going down that's so good yes I've done that I can't tell you how many times I've done that where I'm looking at the the hostess like just walking go ahead still passing out snacks and not bother I'm like okay we must be fine we do that in conversation every day we're looking for the calm flight attendants we're looking for the anchors the captains the people

who in times of stress and turbulence in our life, we can look to and say, if they're okay, and if they're good, then I can be good. And when you can be that person for others, you're a leader. You are the leader. This is probably the defining trait of, I think, people that I have employed over the years

that I would consider a leader or not a leader, is how different they are when shit has hit the fan. Yes. And if there is seemingly no difference in the way they're conducting themselves, leader. Yep. emotional regulator. They bring the temperature down. And then you have the inverse where the minute any kind of sign of trouble, there's stress, there's, there's overwhelm and it's contagious. And what

they need is the calm flight attendant to regulate them. Right. So I think, and people I think who want to be leaders in their professional lives should really think about this. Like how do you show up when things are hard? I always tell the story of one of my friends called Oliver, who when I employed him, must have been seven, eight years ago. Okay, he wasn't my friend when I hired him. But the defining trait of Oliver was that he would deliver me good and bad news the same. Yeah. With the same sort of nonchalon, calm demeanour. So he'd walk up to me and say, you know, we've just signed Uber across America. We're going to be there. And then the days where everything was on fire. He'd walk up to me.

Steven, can I have a chat? I'd say, yeah, yeah, cool. He'd say, just so you know. And then he'd deliver some of the worst shit I've ever heard of my entire life. But he'd do it in such a calm way that I both, I was calm and I thought he had it under control. Right. And I remember always thinking, I need to put more people under this guy because he's going to bring us down. And so I just think as employers, I wouldn't have known that my boss

or my employer is thinking this unless someone had said it to me. They're watching how I deal with things when shit hits the fan. They're always watching. Always. I mean, you take people that are watching you and your team. You have a large team. When you are upset and anxious, everybody feels it. It spreads.

But if you're the one that's calm, that spreads too. And so it's – and you have to get to the situation where if you're upset, then people know it's something to be upset about. of if, you know, I had a friend in college, he was upset about everything. I mean, he just was a hot head. And he got upset about the smallest things. How can you possibly tell the difference between what is a small thing and a big thing if you're always having the same level of reaction?

But if you have a calmness, and let's say, then you have an explosion because it happens because you're human, that's when people know, this is something serious. because if you always operate it at a 10, nobody's going to appreciate it when it's really an 11. When you think about like military generals and leaders, they also have this other side to them, which is they do also protect the standard. And I think there's a balance that's almost needed here

between being nonchalant in those moments where something bad's happened, we can't control it now, and then how you defend the standard. So like you watch the military barracks or whatever when they're going through training, these leaders are like screaming at them about the standards. about the buttons, about iron your shirt, make your boots clean. And so it appears on one end that they are petty about something. And they are, you know, these leaders are emotional.

You look at football managers. Yeah. Or sporting managers. Yeah. They almost exist in a bit of a dichotomy, which is like knowing when to be controlled and then knowing when to be emotionally, seemingly emotionally irrational about something. Yeah. And I think those, in that, Those specific situations are also part of a system. You know, this is a system that they've seen produce the outcome that they want. So they know that there's a utility to having that big reaction or there's a purpose behind it. What I find is the negative is when you have people who there's not a utility. They just, they don't have the words.

The leaders who, let's say, curse a lot because they don't really have the vocabulary. You know, they would rather have big emotional reactions. But when you have that type of language that is not going to show that you're in control of your emotions, you're just less believable. All I had to do was brain dump. Imagine if you had someone with you at all times that could take the ideas you have in your head, synthesize them with AI to make them sound better and more grammatically correct, and write them down for you. This is exactly what Whisperflow is in my life. It is this thought partner that helps me explain what I want to say

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We'd love you to be an investor in the company. And so I signed up for both of those offers. and I'm now an investor and a huge partner in a company called Whisper Flow. You have to check it out. Whisper Flow is four times faster than typing. So if you want to give it a try, head over to whisperflow.a.i slash DOAC to get started for free. And you can find that link to Whisper Flow in the description below. So many of us are pursuing passive forms of income and to build side businesses in order to help us cover our bills.

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All you have to do is share what it is. Learn more at dare to dream.stand.org. So that was number three. Stop over explaining yourself. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The second one was reducing distractions and the first was authenticity. Number four.

Know how to deal with their sadness. A lot of people are hurting that you don't know are hurting. and a lot of people are grieving that you don't know or grieving, whether it's the holidays, whether it's an important date or event that you don't know about in their life and they're hurting and grieving.

If you really want to be a top-level communicator, you need to know, not to say, not only when the times are good, but also when the times are bad. And how does one be there for someone when they're going through their moments of sadness? Is there any principles that one should think about? Yeah, when somebody is,

grieving. What you do not do is begin with, let me know if. If what you are about to say begins with let me know if, it's the wrong thing to say. Let me know if you need anything. Let me know if I can do anything for you. Just let me know. Anything you need, let me know. All you're doing is giving them a chore. This person's already grieving at this moment. it's they're going through something you don't even know how to feel and you're now given them a chore of they're supposed to be on their own to have the ability to pull out their phone text their need to you that's never going to happen have you ever had somebody say let me know if you need anything actually let you know that they needed something never never because you've now you've made it more comfortable on you and now more of an obligation on them. And we go, well, you know what, I said all I need to say, let me know if you need anything. Let me know how I can help, right? When all you've done is just given them an obligation, you've burdened it even more. Of course, they don't want

to burden you. They don't even want to, they don't even want to live in some of these moments. They don't want to exist. They don't know how to do it. And saying, let me know if, isn't going to help them. Instead, here's what you do when somebody's grieving. You do the thing. Whatever you thought about doing, go do it. If you wanted to bring them dinner or said, let me know if you need any food, just go get them food. Go do the task. Go run the errand. Go show up and do their laundry.

Go mow their yard for them. Go do the thing. If I really want you to be there for me and you really want to be there for the other person, you don't have to ask. You just go do. And second of all, I find a lot of time people who are with somebody who's greedy, even they don't know what to say. They want to say something. Like, I want to say something, but I don't really know what to say. I just feel uncomfortable. What I say is not going to be enough. And so they just stare at their phone and they kind of takes out a sentence and they delete it

because they don't really know what to say. The best thing to say is just to validate how you would assume it's going to be feeling for them. Nobody deserves what happened. This is totally unfair. I can't believe that this has happened. Nobody deserves this. Be able to express and confirm that what they're feeling is exactly what they should be feeling. Don't go in with the, at least they're in a better place. Hey, you know what? Everything happens for a reason. That's not the right time to say that, if ever, to be able to try and make them feel better of, oh, you know, I just, at least they're, you know, not, is there anything I can do? Any of that kind of stuff, it's like, yeah, I know what you can do. You can bring that person back. That's what

you can do. But that's not going to happen. You can't do that. And so you catch yourself in a corner where you genuinely have an interest. Like how many times people say, you're in our thoughts, you're my thoughts and prayers? Thoughts and prayers, you know, praying for you. And they haven't once sent up a prayer, right? They're just saying it. If you really mean it, text out the prayer to them. Text the prayer. Dear God, I say, you'd be with Stephen right now. Send the prayer to them. why not encourage them in that versus just saying hey just keeping you in my thoughts if you are then text them thinking about you no need to respond you think just putting it in a facebook comment is going to do enough just here in our prayers that's that's not connection and that's not

authentic that that's that's the easy shortcut i think i've spent my whole life struggling with those moments where something bad has happened to someone or they've been through something and you've found out over text message and you don't know what to say. You're like, I'm so sorry. And the amount of times I've written something and then deleted it and written something and deleted it. And I actually got some feedback from Samir, who is a very well-known YouTuber creator. And he's part of a YouTube channel called Colin and Samir.

Their houses burnt down in the Palisades fire. And I'd say, what, four, five, six months later, He came up to me in New York and said, thank you for the message you sent me because it was specific. And I know, there's a, we have a clip of it because we were recording at the time. I'd just come off stage and he was at his event in New York

and he'd come up to me and said it. And it always stayed with me that he remembered six months later. I didn't even really remember the message I said. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. He remembered six months later that when his house had burnt down, they both just had, I think they both had like less than one-year-old kids. and both of the houses had burnt down I sent him something specific

I could help him with. I can't remember the details of what I said but he came up and said thank you for sending me something. Lots of people sent me messages but I remember you sent me something specific. That hits the theme of when you stop trying to be

what's most convenient to you and start doing what might be just a slightly a little bit more uncomfortable, a little bit more work, a choice to do something different, and be more specific in the thought, to not just say, so sorry to hear, right?

That's injustice. I mean, that doesn't even touch it. But if you were to say, you were to say, what is happening is totally unfair. I agree with it, be specific with it. Same thing with, it's the same with compliments. The more specific it is, the more genuine it is. The person that you remember the longest,

the person who's able to be right there with you and say exactly what you're feeling in that moment. And make a genuine author to support. A real, and also, as you said at the start, not an offer that they have to accept. Because no one accepts them. Yeah. Or to make it a condition that they have to reach out to you in order to you consider giving it instead of just doing it. Or even when you feel that, like, I don't really know what to say, but I'm, you know what, if I were them, this is what I'd want and go do the thing. Otherwise, don't say it if you don't mean it. I mean, that's just the, to me, that's a sign of you're not their person because there's so many people that are just fair weather friends, that they want to be there and be part of the success. but when your face is on the floor and you're at rock bottom,

the people you'll remember are the people that show up. Amen. I've heard that so many times from my guests on this podcast where they talk about their hardest moment. And it's always who showed up in that moment. Number five. If you want to be a better communicator, you have to know how to handle the insults,

the backbiting, the dismissive, the belittling, the patronizing, the words that people use to try and of, like pain. What do I do? If you want to handle somebody who's trying to hurt you with their words, the first thing you have to do is have a bunch of silence, or it's five to seven seconds, so of nothing. Make it enough to where it's uncomfortable where they know this is not going to be fun.

Number two, is you ask them to repeat it. I need you to say that again. I need you to repeat that. Most of the time, people can't do it. And number three, if I need to, I ask them, did you mean? Did you mean for that to sound rude? Did you mean for that to sound short? Did you mean for that to sound upsetting?

And what it does is allow you to be able to operate in a way that doesn't allow their words to hurt you or to touch you or they cut you. Whenever somebody is saying something that's to belittle you or insult you, they're putting a big spotlight on themselves, and they're hoping to throw it on to you to get your reaction. So they're going to say something hurtful to you, and then it's like, they're turning the spotlight right to you. And then when you ask a question,

when you have much of silence, it allows their words to kind of echo back to them. And a lot of people will, before they even have to say anything, though, I shouldn't have said that. The more silence you have, the more awkward it becomes, and they kind of have to take it back. They realize you didn't take the bait. But when you put the spotlight,

you ask the question, did you mean for that to embarrass me? Did you mean for that to sound hurtful? They can't bear the thought of saying yes to that. So they have to tweak it. They have to fix it. They have to go, no, no, no. I mean, what I'm meant to say was,

and they go a different way. Now, if they were to double down and say, yes, that's exactly what I meant. You could say, thank you for letting me know. I was thinking about, like, the neuroscience of what's going on there. Yeah. When you get someone to admit that they're hurtful,

I remember interviewing some neuroscientists who talked about the idea of cognitive dissonance, which is where, like, we all have a perception of who we are. And I guess by what you're doing there, you're creating the cognitive dissonance which is the cognitive mental discomfort by making me kind of look in the mirror at who I just acted like.

If I don't think I'm a hurtful person. If I say something super hurtful and then you ask me if I meant to be hurtful, you're immediately like speaking to my identity. Yes. And I don't want to, I'm not a hurtful person. Right.

And that's causing the dissonance, which is the sort of the disparity between who I think I am and how I just behaved. Yes. And so I have to alleviate one of them. I have to make sense. Nobody believes they're on the side of bad. They always think they're in the sight of good.

So by you saying that to me, I immediately have to confirm that I am a person who's intent on hurting others. Yes. That's not at all what I wanted to do. I just wanted to gaslight you a little bit. I just want to cause you pain. Yeah. And so at that moment, it's what they're thinking and feeling is, I want you to hurt like I'm hurting. I want you, I want to feel the control because I don't have a sense of control now. I'm feeling a certain way. I'm upset. So if I can make you upset, well, then I can have, now I can feel, better and more justified about how I'm feeling. And so some people will, especially the manipulative ones, they'll be upset, say something

to make you upset, and then turn around and go, I don't know why you're so upset. I'm fine. I'm just fine. I don't know why you're so upset. And because they've just left you in it. Now they, all they've done is just pass it on to you. I don't like this feeling, so now I'm going to give it to you. And I'm totally good.

What are you talking about? I had a situation in a gym a long time ago where I was on a machine and a guy, he said that these machines were his, so he wanted to use them all. And he just came up to me, this was a long, long time ago. And he was so, like, out of pocket. Like, he was, you talked about being in the pocket,

super emotional within like 15 seconds, this sort of slightly older gentleman, and basically, like, asked me if I wanted to have a fight. And it was so bizarre to me that I felt like an observer. And I genuinely... Anybody else seen this? No, it was just eating him in the gym. And I was so, I was...

I felt like David Attenborough. Like, I was just like, and I inadvertently did what you said, which is my tone didn't change at all. I spoke to him like this. I mean, did you just ask me for a fight in the gym? I was like, and then the more, because I asked genuine, like, genuine curious questions. And it immediately disarmed him. Yes. I don't do that to strangers in the gym.

I'm like that. My tone was so low. Yeah, but that's what it is. It's, are you okay? You know, it's, you're having to like have to check on them for a second. Because most of the time, when you're hearing them yell and say ugly things, you're, things, what they're truly signaling is, I'm not okay. There's always something else that's going on. I've done it before where somebody said something hurtful, and I said, how did you expect

me to respond to that? Or how were you wanting me to respond to that? How did you think I was going to respond? And it's, I've never had it where they got, well, I expected you to say an insult. Like, it's always them backpedaling and then trying to explain how they're feeling in that moment because they they don't know they don't know how to do it but if i can stop put aside like you did your frustration and say are you asking me for a fight right now you know is that what you're really asking for that kind of are you okay kind of thing that'll all of a sudden your frustration now goes away you've changed the frame completely absolutely because the frame they wanted was aggression maybe that's the the language or the frame that they know as the way to solve

problems but yours was like in that scenario changed to curiosity which was like what how did that yeah anytime you actually have a mindset of instead of having something well don't have something to prove have something to learn and so in that moment you could have easily tried to prove something of who do you think you're talking to do you know what i you could have played that car instead you actually got curious of what's going on here are you asking me for questions are powerful that way. Questions are disarming for somebody who's trying to be aggressive with you because they're not looking for that type of mirror. They don't want a mirror. They don't want to see the ugly that they're putting out there. But any time somebody has that very aggressive, I have so many people who go,

somebody said this to me and was so ugly and said this horrible thing. And they're looking for a quick comeback, which I can give it to them. But if they really care about the relationship, I say, okay, I assume they said it at normal volume. What's their need? What are they really feeling? Because if you just respond to the reaction, you're not going to hear the end of it. And we all have triggers.

Same. I definitely have mine. I can't say anything. I'll tell you one of the biggest things that has helped me, too, in any, if anybody's wanting to improve their personal relationships with a partner or anything. it's one is understanding validate first

frustration comes next if I respond first with frustration I'm going to lose every time so it's validating it's saying of course you'd feel this way it totally makes sense I can see how you'd feel that way acknowledging that it's okay

for them to feel that way otherwise the partner's going to feel like I'm being too much and if I'm being too much then you're going to leave right it's the same sense of abandonment so if I can hit that you're not being too much I have the capacity and I can be elastic in this relationship because I'm not going to be my best self all the time too.

But if I can give you a safe space for you to be messy and me to be messy, then you're actually going to have that relationship. Number two, it's understanding that resets is your Uno Wildcard asking for a reset. If I were to say, you know what, I didn't say that right. You know what? Can I try that again? I didn't say that the best way, did I? You know, I could have done that better. As soon as I start and ask for a reset, I've never had anybody told me no.

Nobody goes, no, no, you have to stick with it right now. Go ahead, keep failing. In a video game, we wouldn't, why would you keep playing if you knew you were ultimately going to lose? It's you restart, you try again. And so, giving yourself the grace and the other person to grace, to have the ability to start over again is a necessary part of communicating in relationships. And three is slice it thinner. A lot of the times, if we're having a big conversation,

somebody might bring up the past, that past thing, and we just kind of add it on and climb it on when we start to kind of feel hopeless about it. But if I can slice each issue by itself and say, I do want to talk about this, I want to address what's in front of us first. That makes everything go a whole lot better. But if I can slice each part and see the need and validate that,

I've always seen that go better. And on that first point about how you engage with your partner during conflict, one of the most useful things I heard recently was a clip I actually saw of Brunei Brown talking about when she comes home after like a long day. Yeah. She will tell her partner how much she has in the tank. It's so good. And so she'll turn to her partner and say, listen, I've got 10%. I can't do this today.

Right. And I remember getting the clip and sending it to my partner because it's those that's some of the vocabulary that probably would have really helped a lot of my relationships which is just first expressing where I'm operating from so good and I don't think anybody is going to be on the receiving end of honestly I've got like 10% in the tank today and go nope I want to do this now exactly well using percentages in conversation is incredibly helpful both in relationships like bernay mentioned of saying you know what I got 10% you got 40% let's put it together we're going to make it work but I at least know where you're coming from

Same thing at work, right? I've seen, what I encourage is when people are in a meeting and they can put out an idea, right, rather than going, what if, because what happens is everybody just starts to kill it, you know, they start pointing arrows at it because it's, because it wasn't their idea, so we need to take it down. But if they come out and say, look, I got 30% of an idea, then what happens magically is that everybody else wants to join in. So if I were to say, look, Steve, I got 20% of an idea. I need you help with the other 80. All of a sudden, you take it as a, oh, me, I can do that. And then everybody else starts to build it up rather than trying to tear it down. Or even if in conversation, if I say, look, I know I'm not going to have the right words.

I'm going to have about 60% of it. Like, that at least is me confirming that I know what I'm saying is not going to always be the right thing to say. I wish I did that more. This is, I believe this is the clip I'm talking about. It was Tim Ferriss. Everyone says marriage should be 50-50. It's the biggest crock of bullshit I've ever heard. It's never 50-50, ever.

And so what we do is we quantify where we are. So if Steve comes home and he'll be like, I got 20. Just in terms of energy. Just energy, investment, kindness, patience. I'm out of 20. And I'll be like, I'll cover you. I got your brother. Like, I'll pull the 80.

Sometimes we come home, which we have done a lot. My mom has been sick. And I'll say, I've got 10. And Steve would, like two days ago said, I'm riding a solid 25. So we know that we have to sit down at the table anytime we have less than 100 combined and figure out a plan of kindness toward each other. Oh, I love that. Yeah, because the thing is, marriage is not something that's 50-50.

A partnership works when you can carry their 20 or they can carry your 20. And that when you both just have 20, you have a plan where you don't hurt each other. So good. That's the mistake I've made multiple times. I try and solve big problems with 10. It's the mistake we make every day. Yeah. I mean, for me and with Sierra and I,

it's usually if we're in a part of an argument, typically our argument's in pretty quickly, but the ones that go long, it's sometimes, you know, I just don't feel like it. You know, I could give an apology. You could give an apology. I just don't feel like being sorry right now. I will later.

But in the moment, I just got this stuff in me and I'm not ready yet. And so what happens for me and what's been so helpful is when I'm aggravated at that edge, and I don't want to give a thing, is to say, my battery's in the red. Like we say in the red because of iPhone. It's like once I know I'm in that place, we know it to time out because it's, or else you'd be two hours in and you're still, now you've just said way worse things, you know, that you're going to apologize for. And so often when the quicker you can get to a timeout, like if you want to know how well it can, relationship communicates, look how often they take timeouts because timeouts are, I mean,

they're, the amount of value you get and just a pause. And then even five minutes coming back to it, you have a different, like, okay, here we go, like a fresh, fresh start. Like, why would you leave somebody on the field for three hours and never give them a rest? And you think I can't, we do it physically, but I'm not going to do it mentally. Like if you want to know the key to the relationship, the metric that is the most valuable key to a relationship, is that the measure, the quality of the conversation is equal to the quality of the relationship. Said differently, the quality of the relationship is equal to the quality of the

communication. You look at all these couples that are divorcing, okay, or the couples that are in bad states. It's because they were okay in the positive, but they don't know how to deal with the negative. So it's the measure of not just, can we talk about the happy stuff? If you talk, I talk to these elderly couples have been married for 50 years, and I say, what's your secret?

it's it's not can you be happy in the happy it's can you how long can you sit with the hard and how long can you be in the in the sad times because those are going to happen and i see that so many with the people there's so many people who communicate with me or message or and they're going through a divorce or they have been divorced and you realize that it's it's not often that they fell out of love they fell out of communication they they stop talking to each other. This is, I think, one of the great myths we're sold when we get into our first relationship is we think that the sign of a good relationship is the lack of conflict.

But if you've ever been in a long relationship, I think over time you start to figure that it's not the amount of conflict. It's like it's how one manages the conflict. I read a quote, which I've never forgotten, which said, you can predict the long-term health of a relationship by whether each cut heals to 101% or 99%, i.e., does your conflict make you stronger. Yeah. And if I look back through the conflict

that I've had with my partner that I've been with a long time now, I go, it has actually deepened the roots. Yeah, it has to. Like it's been productive conflict, you know, which has made us stronger. And that in part is because

of many of the things that you talk about, which is like trying not to win every argument. Right. And all the things in your book. Yeah. That's Sierra, that's what Sierra talks about it. Either way, it's good. Like, it's the conflict, you want conflict in your relationship for the growth.

It is rare that you can have individual growth alone. It has to be relational. It has to be with other people. I can read a book on how to do something, but until I do it, it's a totally different game. So I learn relationally with things and with other people and places, but for sure, relationship. I mean, there's just no other way to go around it. You have to have the conflict if you want to be better. And I've seen so many times where the people, they face in their hands, they don't know how to talk to one another because they gave up on trying to repair, but they're all in on trying to blame.

And so when you are trying to kind of undo what has to be done, that makes it all the more difficult because it's just so many years where there could have been repair. but there hasn't been. And in turn, that really hurts the relationship. I read a recent study that the biggest predictor of the child's well-being within the parental relationship is not whether they were married or divorced. It was how they deal with conflict. I mean, because how many people have had parents that are still together but fight terribly. Yeah, I'm a call it, yeah.

And in fact, should probably maybe not be together. Yeah. Or those that they're divorced, but communicate great. Yeah. And they never put their child in the middle of it and didn't use the child as a male carrier between the two. To be able to do that is, I mean, you get to change the whole trajectory of a child's life. At some point, we have to forgive our parents, right?

Yeah, that's the truth. Like you said, they were kids too raised by parents. This is their first time still doing it. You have a workbook on its way in March 10th called The Next Conversation Workbook. Yeah. Practical exercises for arguing less and talking more, which really takes everything that you wrote about and turns it into an actionable blueprint framework

for people that really want to embed these habits into their lives. I'm going to link that below. Is it available for pre-order, will it be? Yeah, it is. There will be a pre-order link. So we'll put that in the description below. You're also working on some AI stuff, which I think is interesting. Yeah, thank you.

So I'm about to release an AI of, just my content. So it has my book. It has my podcast. Any of my social clips, it has it all. And so it's a small language model to where everybody can have their own personal communication expert, you know, 24-7 kind of thing. This is what they have on it. But where people get to practice. So what I love about it the most is, let's say you say, I'm about to go into a important meeting and I want to sound really confident. What can I do? Or I'm about to have a, my spouse isn't listening or really upset what I do. You apply those right in that moment and gives you a different way of prospecting, different way of seeing things from a different view. Or what I

definitely like is to tell it to be a boss, be my boss who's really mean and arrogant. And let's do an exercise of how to respond to this situation. And you test is that response going to be the best response and allow it to kind of have a different way of practicing things that maybe you need to be ready for. Because some people need to be ready for the hard response. I'll link that below too. Yeah. So you can have a play with that and sign up. I'm excited. We have a closing tradition where the last guest leaves a question for the next. Question left for you is who are you most dying to meet and why? Oh, that's a great one. A person I would love to meet right now, is probably

Brené Brown. Oh, really? The fact that you brought her up. The reason why is because I know that she's been in this space a long time and I feel that when she shares stuff, it's very genuine. Like, there's no guessing that she's real.

Yeah. She's about as real and raw as authentic as you can get. She's also a Longhorn, a Texas Longhorn fan, which I'm a fan. But I feel like when, And this is just me personally. I kind of got pushed into this field. And you always look for people that are your own anchors in life of who you'd want to be a mentor kind of thing.

And that's somebody who's, I feel like, has been in the world and knows and things. And it has just some credible knowledge that's helped a lot of people. She's most certainly authentic. She's incredible. Yeah. Well, listen, if people haven't bought you. your book, which is almost nobody. But if there are still some people out there that haven't bought this book, I highly recommend it. I think I included it in my W.H. Smith collection as well

in the UK. You did. Thank you very much. Such a smash hit success. It's a success on two dimensions. It's sales and its impact. Thank you. And it's also incredibly accessible. So it's not like a complicated science book. And it's written for normal people that are going through very real, relatable, normal problems. And I think that's why it's been so successful. I think you you approach these challenges from a very real place. And maybe that's in part why it's been so wonderfully received and so relatable is because, you know, you're a trial attorney that's bringing this stuff to the masses, but you're not like a PhD scholar who might have thrown up the drawbridge

because they've spent all their life in academia. And I think the way that you communicate is so relatable and resonant that it's no wonder that you've been on an absolute unbelievable terror over the last couple of years. it's phenomenal, like crazy, crazy incredible. So congratulations and thank you from all the people that you've given. Thanks, man. A little bit of light to, a little bit of, you've empowered them with information so that they can live the life that they deserve to live.

That's a special thing, Jefferson. I appreciate that. Thank you, Stu. If there's anything we need, it is connection, especially in the world we're living in today. And that is exactly why we created these conversation cards. Because on this show, when I sit here with my guest, and have those deep, intimate conversations, this remarkable thing happens time and time again.

We feel deeply connected to each other. At the end of every episode, the guest I'm interviewing leaves a question for the next guest, and we've turned them into these conversation cards. And we've added these twist cards to make your conversations even more interesting. And there are so many more twists along the way with the conversation cards. This is the brand new edition. And for the first time ever, I've added to the pack this gold card,

which is an exclusive question from me. But I'm only putting the gold cards in the first run of conversation cards. So get yours now before the limited edition gold cards are all gone. Head to the link in the description below. You know, I'm going to be Oh, Oh,

I'm gonna