The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett - The Man Who Made $100M Before 32: The Secret Was To Stop Letting Them Control Me | Alex Hormozi

Starting point is 00:00:00 I do $106 million launch. My mom got to see it, which is really cool. She dies four weeks later. It was just like, how am I supposed to show up right now? So I rate these tweets as notes to self. I had never heard you talk like that publicly before. Yeah. I'm like, what do I need to hear right now?

Starting point is 00:00:16 And I'll write that, which is like, I just have to keep fighting. And people will judge how much you love someone by how much you choose to suffer. I don't think the person that you lost probably wants you to suffer. One of the lessons that I've learned from an entrepreneurship perspective translated into life is We will get these moments of dissatisfaction or discomfort and be like, life sucks. I need to change something. But my emotional discomfort is not an adequate reason to change what I'm doing.

Starting point is 00:00:39 And so there's all these other skills that are still required to be successful in business. But if I can compress 14 years of business advice, the first thing I would say is you have to decide whether you care more about your future than what other people think about your future. Like someone's version of you has to die because everything in the very beginning of entrepreneurship comes down to one thing which is fear. And it makes sense to be afraid. It's because we want certainty.

Starting point is 00:00:58 But the only way to know is to start. The second thing I've learned is that the fastest way to build a $10 million business is not the fastest way to build a $100,000. Because focus and patience are the two enduring competitive advantages because they're so anti-human. And so this is where entrepreneurs will skyrocket and I'll unpack that concept. So how are you thinking about your business in the world of AI? I'm a big AI advocate. But people are using AI in the wrong places. Like outsourcing thinking and decision making to AI is a really bad decision because you will just get dumber.

Starting point is 00:01:26 This is the best asset I've got for now. So I want to keep it as sharp as I can. This is like the absolute raw truth I could possibly give, which is the single best financial decision that I ever made. And that is... Guys, I've got a favour to ask before this episode begins. It's the algorithm, if you follow a show, will deliver you the best episodes from that show very prominently in your feed. So when we have our best episodes on this show, the most shared episodes, the most rated episodes, I would love you to know. And the simple way for you to know that is to hit that follow button.

Starting point is 00:01:55 But also, it's the simple, easy, free thing that you can do to help us make this show better. and I would be hugely grateful if you could take a minute on the app you're listening to this on right now and hit that follow button. Thank you so, so, so much. Alex, I feel like we have to start with AI because it is front of mind for both, I think, my audience, but also for entrepreneurs that I speak to at every step in the journey, whether they are, I was with Adara, who's the CEO of Uber the other day in New York, and that's what the conversation was about AI. but then I speak to startup founders who are trying to build a software company and can't find a moat that is defensible. Those conversations are about AI.

Starting point is 00:02:38 How are you approaching this as an entrepreneur? How can we use AI to do the things that are the normal functions of the business at a way better, way faster, et cetera? What I'm seeing a lot, especially with founders or people are starting out, is they're using AI to do a lot of dumb things really fast. And they're trying to build companies that the models are going to swallow up pretty much immediately anyways, are already have for super. users and it's just going to like become easier. And the question that I would ask for the entrepreneurs who are, you know, AI maxing right now. And again, I think it's very good to adopt new technology is, are you making more money? Just the very simple, are you making more money now? And even though you're token maxing and spending all this money old tokens, but like, are you making more money?

Starting point is 00:03:21 And I had a business I looked at the other day. They had 11 VAs that were doing, I can't remember, some sort of like data cleaning work. VAs. Yeah, virtualist assistance. So low, skilled labor overseas that was doing work. I think it was something in the neighborhood of like $11,000 a month is what they were paying for these 11 VAs. And they were doing a good job and it all worked. And they then spent $350,000 to try and create an AI system that would replace what these 11 virtual assistants were doing. But that means they spent three plus years of costs on what these 11 virtual assistants were doing. And it wasn't even the constraint of the business. It was just a process they could automate, not that they should automate it, because it's not the thing

Starting point is 00:04:05 that's limiting their growth. And so they still need more customers. And that wasn't the thing. This was like part of their quote process or something, but that wasn't the limitation. They didn't have enough demand. People were using AI in the wrong places. They're trying to start AI businesses when they shouldn't start AI businesses. They should use AI in their business. They're trying to advertise as AI businesses when you should just advertise the thing that your customer cares about, which is the solution to their problem, the outcome. None of that's changed, but because you got really excited about it, you think your customers are going to be excited about it,

Starting point is 00:04:32 but most people are, a lot of people are afraid of AI. So it's not necessarily even a positive, and it's not making you more money, which is the final question. When you listen to someone like Elon Musk, he says that work will become optional in the future. And I sat here with a couple of experts on AI. They kind of explained to me what it is. And from a very simplified perspective,

Starting point is 00:04:51 this machine that has these neural nets in it, which have lots of parameters, basically connections like the human brain does. And when they train it, the parameters become, reinforced the ones that made the right decision and the ones that made the wrong decision are like basically cut out. Again, I'm simplifying this. These brains, these digital brains are getting bigger and bigger and bigger. It's like almost inconceivable to me, based on what they've

Starting point is 00:05:12 said to me, these area experts, that at some point it isn't able to do a lot of the cognitive work that people are currently doing. My question really here is like, where does the value remain in a world where intelligence is cheap and abundant and hard? higher, one could say, and also in a world where robotics are coming over the horizon, too. Like, where is the value? I think stakes. For example, AI can give all of the recommendations in the world, but someone has to own the decision. And so as of right now, maybe it will in the future. AI isn't a citizen of any country, it doesn't pay taxes. And so somebody has to be responsible. To liability. Yeah. And upside, on the flip side. And to take this into different

Starting point is 00:05:54 domains from the media perspective, imagine Jimmy, said, Mr. Beast, has a video and they're like, Mr. Beast is going to replace by AI. He's not going to replace by AI. Because if he had a video that said $5 million, and the $5 million wasn't real, and the Lamborghini wasn't real, there'd be no stakes. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:06:11 Like chess, right, has become more popular now than it's ever, like, than it's been in recent history. But robots can beat humans at chess. Mm-hmm. But no one cares. I think about the F-1 as well, you'd still want Lewis Hamilton in the car.

Starting point is 00:06:22 You take him out of the car, you stop watching F1. Right. So humans want stakes. And so there's the compensation side of it, which is that somebody's going to be responsible, someone has to risk the money, somebody paid for the token, somebody owns the LLC, someone owns this. And so there is value in the judgment and the assumption of risk and upside, which can be money or just the responsibility.

Starting point is 00:06:42 From a media perspective, we still have to introduce stakes into the show. Now, of course, there's going to be the fiction world. They're going to be much harder hit. But if you're trying to do a reality TV show, the real part has to be there. One of the things that I find really interesting about you is you spend a lot of time thinking and in a world of artificial intelligence, a lot of people are now deferring their thinking to these frontier models like Chat Chitbity or Claude Gemma or whatever. And we've spoken about this before, but one of the things we both agree is that knowing the right questions to ask, clarity of thought, critical thinking, making the decision is going to be one of the things in a world of AI, that's critically important. So my question to you is, like, how are you having good ideas, cultivating good ideas and giving your sort of mental space to be able to think about problems? What's your practice?

Starting point is 00:07:25 I'll text this from two different angles. So first is, I think outsourcing thinking to AI as of right now is still a really bad decision. If you, it's like, I think anybody who's used AI for any period of time knows that you can get it to agree to anything. And that's frightening when it comes to making decisions. And so every time I'm like, you know, I think it has gotten a little better. I'll just give it like a really obvious decision to make. I'll go, okay, let's open up a claw, let's open up, open AI. Let's open all them up and I'll ask the same question to all three.

Starting point is 00:07:52 And they're just all over the place. And so I'm like, okay, this is still back to my head. judgment, right? Number two is that if you do delegate your decision-making to it, you get dumber. Now, there's all this research from streets that people in the podcast who talked about it, and it's like, I for sure, like, this is the best asset I've got for now. So I want to keep it as sharp as I can. Do not delegate the hardest work you have, the hardest thinking work you have, because you will just get so weak, so fast. A new idea that sprung into my mind over the last, I'd say three to four months that I've kind of been chewing with is this idea of what happens

Starting point is 00:08:22 when you go long. So long-term thinking and how you build differently today if you just extend the time horizon and then how you can beat competition just by, like, instead of thinking in terms of, okay, you know founders, they always think in terms of five years and then exit.

Starting point is 00:08:38 But what happens if you think in terms of like 50 years? What are the different decisions you make in terms of the foundational blocks? And this is why I have these blocks. Because I saw you do something on YouTube with some blocks before. Could you explain this idea of sort of long-term thinking in terms of foundations? We do this.

Starting point is 00:08:52 exercise in person with entrepreneurs, because I think it's so powerful, which is, if I were to say, hey, build me the tallest tower using a series of blocks, if I say you have five seconds, you're right here, right? And that's, that's all you got. And you're like, oh, it's time. Hands off. If I said, okay, now let's assume we had a little bit more blocks than I could build in five seconds. And I said, okay, what if I said you had five minutes? Would you build it differently? What if I said you had five days? What if I said you had five years? And you have unlimited blocks. Right. Yeah. And so what happens is the foundation, completely changes based on the height of the building

Starting point is 00:09:24 because of the time horizon you're thinking in. I had a mentor telling me this a long time ago, I really stuck with me, which is the fastest way to build a $10 million business is not the fastest way to build a $100 million business. Even in the fastest way to build a million dollar business, not the fastest way to build a $10 million business. Like you could probably build a one person agency

Starting point is 00:09:41 to a million dollars a year pretty quick. One client. Right. Yeah, it's just like, you could do it really quickly. Getting to 100, though, you think about it differently. You would, and so I think, to your point, one of the still outstanding competitive advantages that you can have as an entrepreneur from a thinking perspective is just thinking longer. Yeah. It's really been front of mind to me. It's funny because when I started thinking about, do you know why it is? It's because I told myself in this season of life that I was going to do the business that I'm running now, which is our holding company called Steven.com forever. And I immediately noticed that I made a different set of decisions. I started thinking about the factory I called it, which is, you know, Elon's example of it's building a prototype is easy. Building the factory that builds the cars is 50x harder. I started obsessing over the factory, which in part in this analogy could also be seen as the foundations that we to make this durable over the long term.

Starting point is 00:10:32 And then speaking of Elon, I look at the decisions he made with both SpaceX, which I'm an investor in, and Tesla, where he was like, you know, I could have bought the batteries from Ford, but I'm going to make a completely new battery from scratch. You know, I could have used other people's electricity charges,

Starting point is 00:10:46 but I'm going to build the entire charging network across the United States from scratch. And this is someone who's thinking long term, and what happens then is they have the most durable moat seven years from now. And that's, so this is, that becomes the value, the business and actually it was all a byproduct of just thinking over a longer time horizon. Entrepreneurs and startup founders, as you know, we like rush to like get the exit, raise as much

Starting point is 00:11:08 money as we can. And it looks like you're an unstable building there. Yeah. It looks like that. Strong wind, right? Right. I could blow that over. Even during the exit process, if it's a fast, you know, company, it's like, you're kind of like,

Starting point is 00:11:21 just please stay. Yes. Just never, everything stay fine. No one leave. You know, like, no big accounts. Go away. You're just like holding your breath for six months and being like, please just go through. And then if it goes down to this for like a week or two and they're like, hey, why are the billables?

Starting point is 00:11:38 You're like, no, it's a momentary. It was expected. It was actually in our, did I not send you the updated for? It's a whole thing. And I'll do with the drawing because it might be a little bit easier. But like, if you were to build a hundred story building, you'd have to dig way deeper. You'd have to have a much, you'd build with different materials going up. And so there's a hundred decisions.

Starting point is 00:11:59 that get made that if you're doing 100 stories versus one, you choose differently. And where it gets really tough is that people, they want to have it all. And so say, I want to have the speed of building a one-story building. But then they get to one story and say, well, actually, I want to have a 10-story building. But the foundation wasn't right.

Starting point is 00:12:18 And so this is where entrepreneurs will do this. They'll skyrocket here and then they plateau. And then sometimes, unfortunately, the correct step is that you have to take two steps back, rebuild the foundation, and then it goes up again. And so I think, to your point, focus and patience are the two enduring competitive advantages because they're so anti-human. Yeah, so anti-human. So anti-H Instagram. I've got no announcement to make this month because I'm doing boring shit, like hiring. Like Bezos, like the decision, I still think about this, like the decision that he

Starting point is 00:12:52 made that he was just like, I'm going to have a logistics company be my competitive moat. He's a, like he started as a bookstore online. And to go from there to like, no, we're going to own the trucks and the warehouses and be better at warehouse and delivery than anyone else. That's what we're going to do with our online internet business. But like, who can unseat Amazon right now? Really tough. What's interesting as well. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:13:19 At that particular moment now where the entrepreneur hits this, they come to people like me and you in the street and they say, that they can't get past here, a bottleneck. Yeah. What is it that they should have done? So many entrepreneurs come up to me, they might hit, I don't know, 500K revenue, a million revenue, and they come up to me and they go, I don't know what to do, how do I get to 10 million from here? Yeah.

Starting point is 00:13:37 And I think in part what you're saying is they should have made a decision earlier on to build a slightly different type of company from zero. I'll say what the million-dollar business owner is missing when they're trying to get to 10 is what they would have done differently is they would have stayed longer in the product market phase or trying to make sure that the customers who come in keep wanting to spend money with them, which they either do periodically. So like if you buy a soda that you like,

Starting point is 00:14:00 you keep buying it. It's not like you're on a subscription, but you just buy it regularly. On the other hand, there's subscription revenue, which is truly recurring, like your Netflix subscription, whatever. But they know that

Starting point is 00:14:11 when that customer comes in contact with the business, they're going to stay, and that money's going to keep going, which is what allows it to stack. And so if we think at the most basic level, if every time you get a customer, they never left, then the business will do nothing but grow.

Starting point is 00:14:22 It will either stay the same or it will grow whenever you get a new customer, just keeps growing. And the difficulty of the $1 million entrepreneur is that getting to a million you can do really quickly, or 10. And I know that the world is like, I can't believe that. I promise you, you can do it if you just learn enough skills. But that can happen really quickly because it just doesn't take a lot of moving parts to make it happen. Getting to 100 or getting to a billion dollars from a revenue, I haven't gone to a billion yet, but I feel confident I know what we need to do, the million dollar entrepreneur is trying to fit a billion dollars of new sales in in one year.

Starting point is 00:14:49 And that's the problem is that at the end of next year, because all the customers they signed up to make their million dollars are gone because they aren't good enough. They have to go back to the market, market and sell and get another million dollars to customers. So they think, oh, if I want to get to $2 million a year, I have to go sell twice as many customers, which is true. But if we had to compare two companies, let's say we have company A and company B. All right, we have company A company B. They both are selling 100, you know, new widgets a year. Okay. Let's say company B loses all of the 100, but they want to double because it's an entrepreneur. he's like, I got to grow. And so he sells 200 people here too. Well, then let's say he's got

Starting point is 00:15:26 $2 million in revenue and he's got $1 million for revenue here. And let's say year three, he sells 300 units, because he lost all 200 again because he has no stickiness. And so he makes $3 million. Okay, cool. Now, let's say this company A sells 100 year one. They make a million dollars. They keep all 100 customers. Okay. But let's say that that company keeps the same number of people they're selling new. So 100 new customers come in this year, but they keep their old hundred. So now they also have 200 customers and do $2 million. And then year three, they keep their same hundred and then the hundred from year two. So they have 300 total customers because they got 100 new. And they have three million. So both of these businesses on paper, your entrepreneur

Starting point is 00:16:06 friend comes to you and says, hey, I've got a $3 million business and I've got a $3 million business. Which one do you invest in? Now, you and I do this every day and we're like all day we do this one, not this one, because next year, he's got to go and sell 600 new customers. Now, where this gets, you can start seeing this in the financials because I can tell you that the cost of getting 300 new customers cost significantly more than the cost of getting 100 new customers and having 200 customers that are existing and still paying you. And so you're going to see that in the bottom line getting compressed. And this is where growth at all costs becomes a problem. But for this entrepreneur, he spent the time to figure out how to get all 100 customers to stay. Now, if he encounters your distribution or my distribution, and then all of a sudden we say, great,

Starting point is 00:16:49 now I know that I can bring this thing 10,000 new customers, then this thing becomes a billion-dollar your business because we solve the most important part first, which is that the revenue stays. And so when people build in a rush, they don't build a good enough thing. And so as a result, you scale really quickly. And this is where knowing marketing and sales can be dangerous because the better you are at marketing and sales, the faster you can grow revenue. But you get to a point where you have a certain velocity of sales. I can only sell 100 people or 200 people or 500,000 people a month, whatever it is.

Starting point is 00:17:16 And at that point, you either have to always be seeking more distribution because you have a hole in the back of your bus, but the moment the sales stop, the business craters. And I would say that that is more common than the alternative, which is that you actually have a sticky business. The other thing people talk to me about when they come up to me in the street, when they hit that moment where they're doing about a million in revenue, is they say, you know, my customers love me. They keep coming back, but I've ran out of time, basically.

Starting point is 00:17:38 Yeah. This is an interesting one because a lot of times, if I have the same response where someone says, hey, I'm running out of time. The first question I'll ask us, what's your margin? If they have really thin margins, they can't afford to get help. That's the symptom, but not the root cause. The root cause is either that their offer is incorrect in that what they're offering, the price and the terms of their delivery are too low compared to each other. You're offering too much for too little. Or you don't have a marketing or sales motion that allows that value to be demonstrated to someone so they'd be willing to pay a premium.

Starting point is 00:18:10 On pricing, how do you think about pricing? Is it a subjective thing or is it an objective thing? Do I go look at the market and see what everyone else is charging and then decide that? Or is it what I feel like I deserve? I think what we feel we deserve matters the least in that. I think it's all about what the customer is willing to pay. And so one of the hardest parts for newer entrepreneurs is they sell out of their own wallet. And so it's like if I have somebody who's really good at fixing cars, they're like, well, it's not that hard.

Starting point is 00:18:36 You just do a little screws here. Like I wouldn't pay anybody for that. Like, I do it for free. It's like, yeah, but I don't want to do it. And I would pay you a lot to do it because I don't want to fix my car. And so because it's been easy for you, you think it's easy for everyone. And because you think it's easy for everyone, you're not willing to charge a lot for it. And so they get into this vicious cycle of undercharging and having not enough margin.

Starting point is 00:18:56 And then as a result, having to do more of the work. And then if they get more work coming in, they don't want to say no. And so then they basically fill up their entire plate so they have no access capacity. But that they don't have the time to train anyone. They don't have the time to interview. then don't have to attempt or the cash, right, to for the next person. And so usually when someone's like, I'm overwhelmed, if I say, do you have a lot of margin, then either, yeah,

Starting point is 00:19:18 you're running 70% margin, dude. Like, hire some help. If they don't, then it's two or three steps earlier where the offer's wrong, the sales motion's wrong, which typically they're mispriced. Do you get it all the time when people say to you, you know, Alex, I tried to hire someone and they fucked up, and so I can't trust anybody to do it as well as I can, and the clients love me.

Starting point is 00:19:36 I think it's ego. Yeah. I think we want to be special, and I think we like to be needed. And I think that it is not the business's job to solve your emotional needs. The business's job to serve the customers. And so we are not as unique as we think. If you could go back in time, you could teach yourself a tenth of time because you know all the mistakes that you made and the right things that actually ended up working. So it's like, great. Instead of taking 10 times as long you did to learn it the first time, go back as though you were teaching it the right way to somebody else. And so you can collapse the time to teach someone how to do that. the job. And most times what founders are looking for is a unicorn, right? They're like, okay, I have two employees and I do everything. And so I need to hire someone who's just going to be like me and just do everything else. It's like, it's not going to work the way. And so I use this little analogy that I like, which is, so we have our horn of the unicorn. This is going to be so bad. Here we go. So we've got our, all right, here we go. We'll give a little hoof, maybe a little, some tail. Here we go. And here we go. And we need to have some sparkle.

Starting point is 00:20:37 because it's a unicorn special. Okay, let's go a little bit of a donk there. But they're trying to replace themselves with the unicorn, but there aren't any unicorns. And we know this. And so they go through interview and interview, interview, and then they never find anybody

Starting point is 00:20:45 because they can't find a unicorn. But if you were like, how do I find an animal that's got a horn? Well, you can go find a rhino. Okay, I've got a rhino. They've got the horn. It's like, okay, and then I need a horse.

Starting point is 00:20:55 I can go find a horse. And then I've got to find the sparkle. So I'll get some fireflies for the sparkle. And then I'll get a horse for the horse. And so just like that, instead of saying, oh, someone has to live my exact life and have gone through the exact same trial and tribulations

Starting point is 00:21:09 to figure out all the unique things that I know, it's like, no. They try to find in one person what they can more easily find in three. This is relationship advice as well, isn't it? Right, yeah, demanding your partner be all things to you, your coach, your guru, your therapist, your biggest cheerleader.

Starting point is 00:21:26 Yeah, it's exactly that. It's just, and I think in some ways there's an ego element that I think is very reinforcing, which is that I'm so special, no one can do what I can do. And I think that's a very attractive lie that we like to believe. I guess there's also inherent in that insecurity and fear that you see in these early entrepreneurs that if I hire another person, I now have the responsibility of paying them. Right now it's me, it's safe, I can control this. But if I bring on other people, they've got mortgages and families.

Starting point is 00:21:55 So now it's terrifying. So a good way to justify my fear to myself is by saying, I tried, I can't trust anybody, I couldn't find anybody good. I guess it's just going to have to to be me, myself and I. And I think if that's what you want, like, go for it. Yeah, I just like, I think there's, I think there's going to be a lot more soulopreners, you know, in the coming future. There already are. I think it's a goal question. It's what do you want? What mistakes did you make when you start hiring? Oh, my bar wasn't high enough. Okay. I think of the most basic level, like, what is the job? Like, if you remove everything else, what survives? And I think holding the standard survives. Because if you're the one responsible, then you have to be the one who

Starting point is 00:22:31 determines what is good enough. It's my view that in every given department, the person who's highest up should have the highest standard. And if somebody ever gets to a point where they have a higher standard for ACU than I do, they should run it, not me. Have you seen a change in the types of questions that you're being asked? Because the world has changed, people are more interested in personal branding or business or whatever else. Are people asking you new questions? No, actually, I don't think, yeah. What are the questions that you get asked? I get asked a lot of like, hey, I'm thinking about doing this thing, what do you think? I'm thinking about starting this kind of business.

Starting point is 00:23:03 I'm thinking about starting a podcast agency. What do you think? I'm like, it doesn't matter what I think. I'm like, and so I'll just ask the next question, which is like, well, what have you done so far? When did you ask that? Well, because the answer nine times out of ten is, well, I mean, I haven't, I was just thinking about it. I'm like, okay, well, then nothing's happened. What's going on there with those people that come up to you and they say they're thinking about something,

Starting point is 00:23:26 but they haven't done anything about it. I'm guessing that they want to talk to me about business stuff. And so this is the only business-related thing that they can talk about. And so that's probably when they talk about it. Or they bring it up. Or they want to feel like, in some ways,

Starting point is 00:23:36 it's kind of like productive procrastination or that I'm going to somehow give them one answer that's going to like finally get them over the hump of starting. But most people start because, one, starting feels like this very amorphous thing. When it, like, I was sort of saying, like, has there ever been something that you don't know how to do? Well, whenever I,

Starting point is 00:23:56 approach something that I don't know how to do it, always feels amorphous. It's like this big thing and I don't know where to start, like how do I grab onto a piece of it? And so having gone and attacked like these amorphous things like start a business, which actually means nothing, you have to break things down to much smaller steps of action. That's why for me the most basic thing to start a business is like get an LLC, open a bank account, have the ability to process money, and then ask a stranger if you can do something for them in exchange for money. As soon as you do those four things. Congratulations, you're a business owner. You've already beaten like 95% of people who, and you've also changed your title from an entrepreneur to entrepreneur. And I think that is one of the

Starting point is 00:24:36 just, just like when a customer buys from you versus just consuming your free stuff, their identity completely changes. They're now a customer, which means they're far more likely to purchase future things from you than somebody who's not bought something. That's why, you know, ascensions and renewals are much easier than getting somebody by the first time, right? And so I think to the same degree for us as entrepreneurs or people who aspire to be an entrepreneur, it's like, go make the first dollar. And then as soon as you have that, you have that. And then as soon as you have that taste of like, oh, this isn't, I actually grabbed the corner of this thing. I understand. I just got to get them to give me money to do something. Or I can build something and then have

Starting point is 00:25:05 them buy it from me and then I have to figure out how to build more of them, right, if it's a thing. But like, that's it at the most basic level. And everything else is just is confusion. If you could go back to the starting blogs and whisper something in Alex's ear when he was starting up, advice that would have made the journey easier, more profitable, whatever, what are the sort of layers of advice you would have given him at the starting blocks? So I've actually thought about this a lot. If I went back in time and I saw an older version of myself,

Starting point is 00:25:33 if he appeared in this room right now, let's say 20 years from now is looking at me, my hope is that he would say nothing because it would mean that it worked. Now, if I was going back and let's say that I hadn't taken the step and I hadn't been able to make the jump. What would I say in that instance

Starting point is 00:25:49 is you have to decide whether, you care more about your future than what other people think about your future. Someone's version of you has to die. It's either your desired version of you or someone else's desired version of you. And the thing is you're going to be with you a lot longer than they are. I think everything in the very beginning of entrepreneurship comes down to one thing, which is fear. And justified. It makes sense to be afraid.

Starting point is 00:26:14 Like there's a lot of risk. There's a ton of unknown. There's so much stuff that you don't know. But the only thing I can also say is that it also puts you in the exact same position as every other person who started an entrepreneur. trip. They didn't know. And the only way to know is to start. And to have faith that you will not know the way up the mountain, but as you walk up the mountain, the fog starts to clear. And the fog will always be there, but you'll always be able to see the couple steps in front of you. And so your responsibility is to only take the steps that you can see in front of you. That is it. And then once you take those

Starting point is 00:26:43 steps, the next steps will become clear. And I think that's where there's an obsession with knowing the entirety. And it's because we want certainty. We want to know that if we do all of these things it's going to work, and you don't. You want certainty from a world that will give you none. And if you're uncomfortable with that, entrepreneurship might not be real. But I even say that, and I almost regret saying that because I was so risk-averse when I started. Like, people see the content now or they see you now and you're so confident and great on

Starting point is 00:27:12 podcasts. And like, but I'm sure the first podcast you did, you like look at it and you just absolutely cringe, right? I had a video that I put out that was like the first content that I made that I was like reacting to my own first content. And it's horrendous. It's horrible. But the thing is, is that you have to be willing to be cringe. You must embrace cringness. You will not be cool. It will not look good. You will suck. And everyone will know you suck. And you will know you suck. But again, it's do I care more about their version of me or my version of me? And am I willing to be a working progress or am I unwilling to do it because I want to keep my current station in life?

Starting point is 00:27:46 But the thing is, is that you're at a local maximum. And there's a desire in you probably, if I'm talking to my younger self, to be at a higher maximum than I am right now, I feel like I'm capable of doing more, but I'm so afraid of risking this tiny little bit that I've built for myself. But the reality is that the only guarantee that you have of all the paths in front of you is that you stay on the current path, you will not get what you want. So there is a chance that you get what you want if you move, but there is zero chance if you stay. And I think those were some of the thought processes that actually got me to take action was knowing that I for sure guaranteed 100% would be dissatisfied with my life if I had not taken the shot.

Starting point is 00:28:23 And then playing out plan B with excruciating detail. And I think that's also one of the big ones for fear. Is that like fear only exists in the vague, never in the specific. Also, so does confusion. Right. So the fear is I'm going to do this thing and I'm going to fail. Fails not specific. And I'm, and then everyone's going to hate me.

Starting point is 00:28:42 And then eventually I'm going to get ostracized and die. Like we catastrophize everything because we're revolutionary beings, right? We're mammals. But if you really think, what does failure even mean? I asked someone to buy and they say, no, is that failure? What if I ask another person? What if I ask 100 people? What if I ask 100 people? All 100 people say no. Am I allowed to change what I'm offering? Yes. Okay, so you get another 100 people and maybe one of them says yes. Okay, but even in that period of time where you had the 100 people who all

Starting point is 00:29:10 said no to you, and let's say you quit your job and so you have no income, okay, what are the options available to you? Can you talk, can you go and sleep on a friend's couch? Can you go back home? Your tail between your legs? Well, it's only tilt between your legs if you stop trying. If you go home and say, Mom and Dad, I want to save up some capital so that I can extend my runway so that I can go after this big goal. Mom and Dad might be cool. It might be friends. It might be, or maybe 10 friends going together because I split a bedroof. So I had a house with six people in it. And I split one of the bedrooms with another guy. I beat 400 bucks a month. And I had a mattress on the floor. And I was never there. But it was just like, I tried to keep my living expense as low as possible. And I think,

Starting point is 00:29:45 one of the big ones especially is that people are unwilling to sacrifice their short-term lifestyle and appearances in order to achieve their long-term goal and so they're handcuffed to their lifestyle and so you'd be astonished at how little you can actually live on if you try to live on little this goes back to the long-term thinking argument as well which is like if you think about your status in 10 years versus today

Starting point is 00:30:06 yes and I'm willing to take this dip one of the things you said was really interesting and it's gone to me that most people might not realize this about people like you which is that you said there's uncertainty all the way up. Now, I imagine an 18-year-old entrepreneur listening to Alex Amosi, they're going to be thinking, oh, he's got everything figured out all the way up. And he's no longer living with uncertainty, fear, confusion, ambiguity. He's no longer having to think hard about how to solve a problem

Starting point is 00:30:29 because he's got all the answers. But actually, as you described it, in my head, I imagined all of these, this sequence of almost never-ending doors that all just have a cryptic message on them. And you imagine you go through one door and there's 10 more Oh, okay, this was the right one. And then there's 10 new ones that all have a vague language on them. And you've got a pick which one to go through next. You go through, okay, you bounced off that one.

Starting point is 00:30:54 Shit, you took it out. Lost some money. You go through another one. Okay, this was the right one. And then there's 20. Actually, your optionality is increasing with the more success you have. So there's more doors and more decisions to make, more uncertainty. Which most people don't realize.

Starting point is 00:31:06 But actually, as you were saying, I was thinking, fuck, this is exactly what I'm going through now. I was up till the early hours of the morning with one of my colleagues yesterday night. and we're just figuring out which daughter walk through. So this is really interesting because the earlier you are on your journey, the more specific the advice is. Because if you do not have a business,

Starting point is 00:31:24 the first step is the same for everyone, which is you must start an entity and then you have to have a bank account so that you can exchange money and you have to have a way or manner of collecting that cash. Now, of course, you could have cash business, but I would say most people use credit cards now. So you have a processor, a bank account, and an entity.

Starting point is 00:31:39 It doesn't matter what business you start. That is the first step. Now, as the business grows, you have more resources. The nature of the business is different. And so the number of doors that are ahead of you are actually multiplied by a huge factor. And so right now, it's actually never easier to know what to do than when you start. And so it has nothing to do with you not knowing. Of course, you know, we just said it.

Starting point is 00:31:59 It's everything to figure out why you're not doing. And more specifically, whose voice you're listening to that is not yours, that you are afraid of disappointing, or afraid of their judgment. And if you can identify that voice, and you actually put a name on it, it's not like, oh, what are people going to think? It's not people. It's probably like two people.

Starting point is 00:32:19 And if you name me, you're like, oh, it's just James and Betty. Yeah. So this is really real. So one, when I was about to sell Jim Lodge, I really, it was actually a very hard decision for me, super hard. And when I exited,

Starting point is 00:32:32 one of the reasons I almost didn't exit was because there was somebody that I knew in my circle, not even like a super close friend, that I realized when I got really clear on whose voice, I cared about, I thought that they didn't think that $46 million was enough money, that they wouldn't think it was legit. I'm dead serious. No, it was like, that was my, that was my, it's like,

Starting point is 00:32:50 he's just funny to hear it. He's not going to think, he's not going to think I'm legit. It was only when I was like, am I going to not do this and let him control me? Because that's what it is. They control you. And I think when you say it in those terms, it feels like much heavier. Like, I'm letting my mom or my uncle or my brother or the, like, co-worker, John, control me. because that's how much I care about this guy's approval. I have to care about my approval more. I want to say this in more detail because I think it's important. The person that you see in front of you is not the person who took the leap to start the business.

Starting point is 00:33:22 I belabored that decision for six months. I had almost like a pre-can answer and people were like, oh, so what are you doing with your career? I was like, I'm a consultant, like to do a business school and then someday start my own business. It was like I could say it in my sleep. But the someday start my own business, when I tried to think a little bit more first, principles. I was like, okay, well, in what way is this business school going to help me start a business? And when I looked at the starting salaries of business school, it was like $120,000

Starting point is 00:33:46 a year after you went to a good business school. And then I thought to myself, well, it cost me $60,000 a year and I can't make money during that period. So I'm going to lose $120 for sure. And at the time I was making $50,000 a year. And so I was like, so it's $240,000 is my, call it my opportunity cost for the end two years. Do I think that I can take the money that I had saved up and in two years get to $10,000 a month? I was like, I think I can do it. And so that was part of the reason that I ended up not going to business school. And it was because of a question on the business school test was, how will a booth MBA help a short and long-term goals? And I just sat there for three days trying to answer it.

Starting point is 00:34:19 And I realized I was like, I don't know if it will help my long-term goals. So, I mean, it's good that they have those questions because it actually forced me to answer it. Now, back to the six months, I read, I was probably reading no joke a book every two days because the job that I had had high seasons and low seasons. And during low seasons, I basically just read books. and they were almost all self-help books. And I got to this point after reading however many of them, that I looked back at my life and realized it was exactly the same. And I thought, oh, if I don't do anything, my life's not going to change.

Starting point is 00:34:48 And so I had this idea that if I just keep reading these books, somehow my life was just going to change. And that was like one of the realizations that I had. I had the friend who was also in a white collar job like I was, and every night we'd probably get on the phone for two to three hours and talk about how we were going to start a business. And I had this I had this IKEA carpet that I bought that was a cowhide carpet. And the spot where I'd walked back and forth was like worn out on the cowhide because of how much I would just pace in my small flat just going back and forth just talking about the ideas that I had to start a business.

Starting point is 00:35:21 Every time I wanted to start it, I would tell my dad I want to start the business. And he would be like, let's not be unreasonable here. He's like, you've got a good job. He's like, you're following the plant. You did Vanderbill in three years. You had good grades. We were going to do two years here. then you go to one of the top Ivy, you know, MBA schools, like, you're good.

Starting point is 00:35:37 Don't like, this is part of it. This is part of it, right? I acted with such cowardice that I had to, I had to drive halfway across the country before I could call my dad to tell him that I, that I had quit my job and that I was going to start a business. Because I knew that if I had done it while he was there, he would talk me out of it. Because he had already talked me out of it a bunch of times. Why was he doing that? I learned a little bit about his background over the last couple of days.

Starting point is 00:36:03 Got some photos, I mean. Oh, that's right. The OG. And I think there's context in his own story, which completes the picture. So whatever people see of my success, I think in a lot of ways when my dad accomplished, the more I think about it is bigger. My dad fled during the Iranian Revolution, right? And then he went to go to France to become a doctor. But he didn't speak French.

Starting point is 00:36:28 And so he had to try to go into medical school and take Orgo in a language. that he didn't understand. And so he failed two years in a row. His brother was like, go to Belgium, start fresh, go to a new place. And so he ended up getting all the way through medical school. And then he met my mother in medical school. And then they came back to the U.S. Now, his medical degree didn't transfer to the U.S.

Starting point is 00:36:48 And so he had to get a U.S. fellowship in order, a residency or whatever. But no one would take a Middle Eastern guy who had a super thick accent, who was fresh out of medical school. And there was all these U.S.-based people here. And so for two years, he ran x-ray slides. He finally gets a residency. And then he decides when he comes back. to Baltimore, which is where I'm from, that he's going to, instead of join the practice that my

Starting point is 00:37:09 mother had with her father, he was going to go out on his own, which is pretty palsy, right? He didn't have a foreigner, didn't have anything. And so he asked to find out how much a construction costs for building your own surgery center. And it was like $250,000 then. So it was a lot of money. He didn't have that. And so he looked at all the legal requirements for what it entails to be a surgery center. And then he went to Home Depot and built a surgery center that met all the and got inspected so that he could have his own surgery center in his practice. Then, right as his practice is starting to work, my parents got divorced. They changed the locks on the door because he had like a separate thing. His patients show up and they didn't know where to go. It was an ugly divorce.

Starting point is 00:37:47 And so then he's starting his own. And this is when he was talking to me then. So fast forward now. He's like, I've been in practice for, you know, 20, 30 years, whatever. He's like, those years, I didn't even think about him. I think I was like, I feel like I'm not moving fast enough. I feel like I need to need to do these things and he's like, dude, a year, two years now, he's like, it's nothing. He's like, when you're my, you're not even going to think. You don't even remember it. The honest truth of the matter is that I really desperately wanted to prove that I could do it on my own.

Starting point is 00:38:17 Who did you want to prove that to? I don't know, everyone. Me, him, the world. I remember being terrified about the idea of winning the lottery. Sounds really weird. When I was in college, I bought a Super Bowl ticket because it was like a billion dollars or so. It was like, let's do it for fun, whatever. And I remember having this moment right before the number was going to get called of sheer terror of what if I win?

Starting point is 00:38:39 Because I was like, I will never be able to prove that I have the medal that I can do it. And of course people would say that now if someone wants to give me a billion dollars, I'm happy to use it. Because to be fair, though, because I already have this, I already have the status and the track record that I built this. And there's also the reason that like when I started my business, like I didn't take a loan. Like I used my own money that I'd save because I wanted to be. mine and I knew I would know. And I think, yeah, my dad had absolutely perfect intentions. He gave me what I believe to be for vast majority of people, probably pretty good advice. It just wasn't the advice that I needed for the goals that I had. There's an interesting thing because people like me and you

Starting point is 00:39:18 make business content and we talk about entrepreneurship a lot. I often wonder if we're leading some people astray in the context of some people actually should take that advice. Some people shouldn't become entrepreneurs. And how does one know if entrepreneurship and its broad definition is for, them or not. Or like working in a company, having, you know, having a great job is for them. It's funny, we were, I was doing the show once and I said to the producer who was just off camera, I said, do you think I'm happy? So this is, this is someone who gets to see me for six or seven years behind the scenes every day since we're on my kitchen table, has been there with me every corner of the world, the best and the worst of times. I went, do you think I'm happy?

Starting point is 00:39:56 He went, yes. He said it quickly. And then he, and then I said, would you want my life? And he, he couldn't have said no more violently, so much so that it was almost offensive. He was like, you're having, and then I went, would you like my life? He goes, no. And he was like, and he was like laughing. He would not want my life,

Starting point is 00:40:13 but at the same time, thinks and believes, having seen me behind the scenes for seven years, that I'm happy. And in there, I think you have something, which is the sort of subjectivity of journey. Like, is this your journey? How does one know listening to this now,

Starting point is 00:40:27 if they should be an entrepreneur or not? So I'll give a couple of frames because decision making is, probably both do it with a lot of our time. So one is what's the goal? What do I want to have happen? Everyone says the same things here. They say, you know, I want freedom to make my decisions.

Starting point is 00:40:39 I want, you know, financial freedom. But then we have to be specific. And so just like fear only exists in the specific, goals have to exist in the specific in order for them to be real. And for you to make accurate decisions. And this is why I'm so obsessive about language and like observables and things like that. So what is, one is, what do I actually want to have happen?

Starting point is 00:40:57 And then number two, what does that change about my actual daily life? On this first point, funnily enough, I said to you freedom, and then I immediately realized that the least free person in the child. Dude, this gets, okay, this is great. So I think about this. It's the freedom to choose. But I think people stop at freedom. There's this almost fetishization of independence and keeping your options open

Starting point is 00:41:21 and options maxing, right, for your life. But all of the best parts of life come on the other side of exercising an option and walking through a door. but in so doing, leaving the other doors that you could have walked through behind. And so the secret to getting a life you want is making a commitment. But you will not get all lives you want. And so at some point, you have to sit at the precipice and you have to make a trade. And if you say, I want this more than something else.

Starting point is 00:41:50 It means I know I'm not going to get this. And I choose to say that I want this more. And I think this is where people just sit at the crossroads. And that is what takes the majority of time, not just getting into business, but also when in business. People will sit at the crossroads of like, what type of company do I want to build? What type of product? And what type of business do I want? And we sit there and when I see people get stuck, it's almost always unmade decisions. Because unmade decisions can last forever. Whereas if you're in, if you're in a trial loop of feedback, feedback, feedback, like you'll figure

Starting point is 00:42:20 it out. Like you'll move. But if you're in an unmade decision, it can sit there forever. And that's like the freedom to choose. We have to choose. Are you seeing this sort of new generation that I've grown up with all the tools to start their own business, they're in this personal brand era where everybody can make content and build a brand and then do like panel talks for a living or sell like ads on LinkedIn. What is going on here? This sort of younger generation, under 30 now, keeping their options open, wanting freedom. If you compare that to say maybe my dad, who, you know, one job did that career for 20, 30 years of his, it was. you've looked 40 years of his life. It's a very different world we're living in. There are more people starting businesses than ever before. I know since COVID, there's,

Starting point is 00:43:06 at least in the U.S., the stats that I looked at recently, it's like there's been more new businesses per quarter. It's been growing really aggressively, at least in the U.S. And so more people are starting businesses. And so I think that lowering the cost of entry has gotten more people across the line. I think having more access to information has gotten more people across the line. But why aren't, why isn't everyone going across the line? I think there's a couple things. One is, to your point earlier, I don't think it is for everyone. And so I think the issue there is one of motivation. They have too many carrots, so good things, keeping them in their current position,

Starting point is 00:43:41 and not enough sticks or bad things, getting them out of their current position. And I think it's a Tony quote, Tony Robbins quote, which is, the pain of staying the same has to be greater than the pain of change. And I think that when that happens, and it could be the pleasure of change, could be, has to be greater than the pleasure of staying the same, equal opposite, but I think most people who are in that slice, there's pain. And so you will change the moment it is more painful to stay the same. I've spent the last decade building and investing in companies. And so often the conversation around marketing budgets follows the exact same pattern. The budget gets approved,

Starting point is 00:44:16 but then the results don't come back. And most of the time, the creative pitch and the offer is fine. The problem lies with the audience. Ads reach people who will never buy or refer. nor do they have the power to sign off anything at all. And this is why so much budget gets wasted. LinkedIn ads, who a sponsor of this podcast, lets you reach them specifically by job title, seniority, company size, industry, the skills that they have and much more.

Starting point is 00:44:42 You're no longer hoping your ad reaches the right person. Instead, you're defining exactly who sees it. And LinkedIn ads drives the highest B2B return on ad spend across all major ad networks. Give them a try at LinkedIn.com slash diary. And if you spend $250 in your first campaign, you'll get a $250 credit for your next one just by going to LinkedIn.com slash diary. Keep this to yourself. Terms and conditions apply. For the last couple of years, I've been working on something that I realized every podcaster listening

Starting point is 00:45:13 to this, but actually probably every creator listening to this, might just need. Podcasting is difficult for many reasons. And one of them is that these hosting platforms don't give you much information. And also, because they're so fragmented, you kind of have to go through every single platform, uploading it to YouTube and then taking the same big old video file and uploading it to Spotify's platform. It takes huge amounts of time and that friction means most of us don't do it. That is the problem we set out to solve and so we built something called Flightcast which you can find at Flightcast.com. And today Flightcast is also one of our show sponsors and some of the world's biggest podcasters are now using our platform to run their shows because it gives you an edge.

Starting point is 00:45:49 It saves you time. It gives you analytics most people won't typically get. It allows you to use AI to be more informed on your show and it has growth tools that other hosting platforms don't have. So podcasters that are using Flightcast have this unfair advantage. So go to flightcast.com slash DOAC now. Do you think life rewards you somewhat proportional to the hardness of the problem that you solve? So I think a hard problem doesn't necessarily guarantee that it is a valuable problem. Like if you run a marathon very hard, doesn't necessarily make you more money. So like there's lots of hard things that are out there that will not turn into monetization. The second thing is, I think it depends on the size of your goals. And so if you want to be a millionaire, you do not need

Starting point is 00:46:34 to solve a hard problem. You just need to do a little bit better than other businesses that are wildly underserving their customers, which I promise you, there are plenty. You can just have a pool cleaning business that just cleans better than the other guy and shows up on time and all you've got to do is knock on doors and ask if they want to switch because their current company probably doesn't pay attention to them. One of the things that, you know, a lot of founders, entrepreneurs are thinking about the moment is producing content. We're living in an interesting time where a kid in Mumbai or a kid in Manhattan can both produce content using LLMs at AI. They can produce videos theoretically. If you imagine any rate of improvement, they're going to be able to make videos, photos, churn out your quotes.

Starting point is 00:47:12 They could use your quotes, change them a little bit and have an agent post them for them. Where is the moat in content where you think about, if you think about supply demand dynamics, There's fixed demand. The Financial Times did a report saying that time spent on social media is starting to dip a little bit since 2020. For younger generations, for older generations, it's still sort of like going up or flat. But for Gen Zs, it's like starting to come down a little bit. So stagnant demand, tsunami slop coming in of AI content, huge supply shock. Every unit of content itself is going to become less valuable, therefore.

Starting point is 00:47:45 And the algorithms are getting more violent, or I should say are becoming more, someone with 10 million followers can get 2,000 likes. Back in my day, 15 years ago, when I started on social media, if you had a million followers, you've got a million likes. Or a million views, shall I say? What's the game of content in such a world? Everyone's making content now. To your point, what's the moat?

Starting point is 00:48:05 Reality is the moat. Reality is the moat. I'd say the number one biggest business influencer, I think on the planet, is Elon Musk. And he happens to own the biggest business on the planet, be the richest man. Jeff Bezos, huge business influencer because he has Amazon.

Starting point is 00:48:23 Warren Buffett, probably the number one investing influencer. Like people fly around the world and when he talks, everyone listens. And so even if a teacher in Des Moines, Iowa, word for word quotes Warren Buffett, and let's do one better. Let's say makes even better advice than Warren Buffett does. It's still not going to get the same views because they just forgot to build Berkshire Hathaway

Starting point is 00:48:43 and have 100 years of track record. And so what I'm saying there is that when reality is the mode, it means that your brand is the mode. It means your reputation is the mode, which can only happen in reality. Now that said, I do think it's going to affect different types of content differently. If you're in the world of making fictional whatever stuff, then yeah, I think it's going to hit you much harder. But even then, there's still going to be the standard holder. Somebody has to determine that this slop is too sloppy and that you still have to work really hard to make the AI, make exactly what you want, and have it at the caliber that you want it to be at.

Starting point is 00:49:19 Have you made any changes to your content because of everything that's going on with algorithms and AI? Yeah. I'm focused on only doing things that only I can do. Most people can't get hundreds of business owners to fly out in person every month that are all million dollar plus business owners to seek advice on real business problems

Starting point is 00:49:40 at 3 million, 5 million, 10 million a year, 500K a year. Most people don't have that. that. And so I can demonstrate expertise in a live and interactive fashion a way that other people can't do. I think that live is something that, I mean, AI maybe in the future we'll have some AI avatars that can go live, but at least in the short to medium term, I think live is good. I think IRL, as in like, it's actually real people talking, which is we talked about the Scalar Phil show that we just launched. It's real entrepreneurs and there's stakes involved. I think that is something that is not going to be replaced.

Starting point is 00:50:15 But if we think about content on this continuum, all right, let's make this continuum risk. When I see risk, it's the risk that a consumer has in consuming the content and executing on it. And so if we differentiate entertainment and education, is entertainment the point of the content is to be consumed. It's the only objective of entertainment.

Starting point is 00:50:35 The point of education is to change behavior, right? So that's our split. Now, entertainers will get hit harder than educators will, the entertainers that have stakes involved will be able to maintain that moat by still focusing on IRL, real stakes, real stories. Now, in the education world of risk, let's put something that's really low stakes.

Starting point is 00:50:57 There we go. So we've got beauty on this side. If I have an AI influencer who does a makeup tutorial, I don't think the risk is super high that if the tutorial is good, that a girl's like going to not use the tip that they made in the thing.

Starting point is 00:51:12 I think that's pretty like, likely. If you go maybe a little bit riskier, let's say I have some personal finance stuff. Well, what's the credit? So the credibility and beauty is beauty. The credibility of personal finances, do you have personal finances? Right. So who's the number one influencer in personal finance? My opinion, I think is Dave Ramsey. He also happens to be, I don't think he calls himself this, but I think he's a billionaire. And he's got a massive, I think he's public, $300 million a year of revenue that he's done. And I think there's some other newer, newer age people I think Vivian 2 is she's a personal finance person.

Starting point is 00:51:47 I think Erica Colberg touches in this. She's the legal, legal gal. Anyways, all this to say, all of them have more credibility. Like if you just start giving out tips on how to save money, there's no credibility. Reality. There's no reality. You have nothing to back it up. Now, we keep moving further, let's say business, where if you make a wrong call, you could lose your business.

Starting point is 00:52:10 Here you lose some money. Here you lose a bad day of makeup. So the risk goes up. The riskier, the higher the consequences of being wrong, the more people are going to, I think, double down on credibility of source. What's interesting is I also heard, as you're describing, flying these 100 business owners out to Vegas, is I heard scarce, hard and scarce. And I thought a lot about these two words as sort of the pillars of my own content strategy, which is with an LLM, a kid in Mumbai could churn out a video. But the reason why we have, you know, somewhat of a moat here still is because it is hard to shoot on nine cameras.

Starting point is 00:52:51 It is hard to bring Alex Homozy here. It is hard to get Alex Homozy to say yes to doing this. It is hard to get Michelle Obama or J.D. Vance to say yes to doing this. So it's hard from a production perspective, but also from like to accomplish this is hard. And then what you described, I heard a lot of the like, I had hard answer guests. Who can bring 100 entrepreneurs to Vegas who are all successful in their own right? and have them ask you questions. So that's great content for us to watch.

Starting point is 00:53:17 It's like really impossible to... Very hard. If I had only had a $46 million exit, I don't know if I would attract the number of entrepreneurs that we do now. But now that we do 250 plus schools, a billion-dollar plus company, it's like I have credibility that the YouTube, the content, right, is not like I still do business. You know what I mean?

Starting point is 00:53:40 We have chains of brick and mortar that were involved that I just don't talk about because it's not relevant for most people. Let's look at the opposite then as well, just to show people what the opposite of hard and scarce or of this approach is. What types of content should we all kind of stay away from now? So I think commoditized tips and tricks when you have no, again, like proof is in the pudding.

Starting point is 00:53:59 Reality is the moat. It's basically the opposite of that. So if you are posing, if you are pretending, if you have no proof that you were good at this thing, again, this is on the education side, then there's a big, I call the big Vegas wispy. Why should I listen to you? right? Why should I listen to you? And if you can't answer that question for, I'll say a prospect,

Starting point is 00:54:19 you know, prospective customer within the first like couple of seconds, they'll just listen to somebody else. Because the reason that credibility matters so much is that it's actually lower effort to consume information from somebody who's an authority. And so if I'm, if I'm listening to somebody who doesn't have proof and I'm listening to investing advice, I have to really think like, is this true? Does this make sense? If I'm listening to Warren Buffett, I don't have to think that. I'm like, I'm sure he's right. Now when someone's like, how do I get into this, you do what no one else do? Well, if you are getting in, then document, like, document the proof of effort. So you can do you can have proof of outcome, just like what we do, right? What you do? But then there's,

Starting point is 00:54:54 when you're starting, there's proof of effort. Jimmy's first viral video is him counting to like a million. It's proof of effort. When you have nothing else, you have time, you have work. If you want to make, if you want to say, hey, I want to get into sales stuff, it's like record your entire day of you selling. And then when you overcome something that's really good, that's real life with real stakes. Clip the moment, right? And show yourself, it's like, I took 22 calls today.

Starting point is 00:55:18 Let me tell you the best moment. I did a 12-hour day. In three minutes, I'll give you the best moments. It's like, people want a deal. And so I think about that as a compression of time. And the reason that people listen to the people who are further ahead who've done all these things is because we can compress time. You say, hey, you could try and figure this out on your own.

Starting point is 00:55:35 But if I can compress 14 years of business advice into 37 minutes, that's a good deal. Do you know what it reminded me of? Seven or eight years ago, when I used to have, you know, big clients, Uber, Coca-Cola, whatever around the world, we used to do a lot of like social competition, social media competitions. And I used to have this mental framework. And I used to have this mental competition. And I remember the day when I first heard of you and you were coming on my show and I was looking through some of your writings. And you almost had an identical framework. Yeah. So the core, so each of the books has one core concept. And then it breaks down how to use it, et cetera. But the value equation comes down to what's the Alph? come and some outcomes are worth more than others. If I can help you cut your hair versus I can get you to be in perfect shape, perfect shape is worth more. If I can get you be a billionaire versus perfect shape, billionaire is worth more.

Starting point is 00:56:22 Right? So we have outcome. And then we have perceived likelihood of achievement. Perceived likelihood of achievement. Okay. So this is the, okay, interesting, yeah. It's the inverse of risk. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:56:32 How likely do I think it is. And then we have, on the downside of this, we have time delay. How long is it going to take me to get the thing? And then we have effort. Is this a sacrifice? Is this effort and sacrifice? No, different. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:56:52 So effort is all the things that you have to begin to do as a result of a decision that you don't want to do. Sacrifice are all the good things that you have to stop doing as a result of a decision. So if I get into fitness, I have to stop eating the stuff I like and I have to start eating stuff I don't like. I have to start waking up earlier. I can't sleep in as much. I have to be sore where I wasn't. before. And so that's my effort and sacrifice piece. The time delay is, okay, if I can get in shape in three minutes versus getting in shape in three months or three years. Okay.

Starting point is 00:57:21 The outcome is, am I getting in shape or am I being a billionaire? And then how likely is this to happen? Because on some level, like if I buy a PDF of a fitness program for $19 or I pay $3,000 for a personal trainer to train me in person three times a week, my perceived likelihood of achievement of buying the PDF versus a personal trainer is much higher. Now, the effort and sacrifice is actually going to be relatively fixed. But this is a lot of the opportunity. But this is a the part that goes up. Now the time delay, if done rut, should also be fixed there. But this is what explained the difference in value on a product level. But the value equation works for everything, just like it, just like consuming content. What's my outcome? I think I'm going to learn some shit

Starting point is 00:57:55 about investing. How likely is it that I think he can provide value or if I consume this pretty high? What's my time commitment of consuming this? If I'm going to watch a four-hour video, fewer people do it than a three-minute video, right? And then you don't really actually have to do any work when you're just purely consuming content. But if I wanted to take action as a result, then that's another part of it. But it's still going to cost me 20 minutes, which is a sacrifice. I could be performing Netflix.

Starting point is 00:58:15 Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's true. I think if we're using consumption of media as the thing, the effort and the time delay, basically are we talking time delay to outcome? I'm going to be rich. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:58:24 Or am I talking? Yeah, the time is always going to be a component. What's interesting is that having looked at a zillion different offers over my life and thinking about value, the one that I think is most slept on is this one. How quickly they can accomplish X outcome? If you want to get into business,

Starting point is 00:58:41 and just completely disrupt it, look at what everyone else is doing and do it half the time. You can do that in just about any business because there will always be someone who's willing to pay a premium for that. Goes back to what Jeff Bezos said about betting on things that won't change.

Starting point is 00:58:53 Yeah. Like his whole mantra around that has been one of my, like, I would say one of my true pillars of like, how do I plan for the future? Give people context on that for those that haven't never heard Jeff talk about that and what that means.

Starting point is 00:59:03 So he, I think I saw it as an interview that he did. And they said, so give an X, Y, and Z. What do you think about the future? And he said, you know, I don't really think that much about what's going to change. He said, I spend a lot more time trying to think what's not going to change. And then we bet really heavily on those things. We believe that customers will prefer cheaper prices 10 years from now just as much as they do now. We believe that customers will prefer

Starting point is 00:59:24 more selection to less selection, 10 years from now as much as they do now. We believe that if customers can get something in two hours, they will value that more than if it takes them two days. We believe in that. We can bet in that. And so he just thinks about these elements. And if we're thinking about the value equation, how easy did they make buying? It's one. one click. How fast does it come? It's almost immediate. You have a history of buying from them. And this is also where the reviews come in. How likely is it? Well, if it's a five-star with 5,000 reviews, it's pretty high. If it's got a one and a half and it's got two reviews, I'm probably not going to buy it. Even it's the same product, just because of our perception

Starting point is 00:59:57 of it. Right. And then the outcome is what I'm willing to do for the price, right? I think about this time delay from a moment because of one thing that kind of loops over the whole conversation of this point is that people will abstract the value of a positive future outcome to zero if it is long enough in the future. True. Even if it's guaranteed. You can guarantee that you will be rich if you invest, you know, $100 a week or $200 a week, whatever, into an index fund, right?

Starting point is 01:00:24 Pretty much. And if you do that for 34 years, you will be fine. Because it's 30 or 40 years and because the latte is today, the discount basically takes it to zero. There's two lessons that I think that are really, really hard to learn. I think Williamson talks about this, but like unlearned. or unteachable lessons, things like that, lessons that are difficult to observe unless you go through them.

Starting point is 01:00:46 One of the guys who worked for me, he said, you know, I consumed your content for, you know, years. He said, but seeing you at the office at 4 a.m. every day, when you don't need to do this at all, the consistency of it is like, I don't see that in the content. I mean, I see the output of that. And one of the things with consistency is that you need to be consistent in order to witness consistency.

Starting point is 01:01:10 Like, you can't even, You can't even observe. Like, even if I did a time lapse that takes 10 seconds of me, you still don't perceive it. So there's the consistency piece. And I think the other one with regards to the long-term component is patience. Also, to be too fair, focus. Because Sharon, my partner says this.

Starting point is 01:01:28 He says, people only see the choices you made, not the options you had. And so you can't really witness focus. You just see winning. And so to the same degree with patience, again, you only see the win. Like if you look at a marathon, people are there at the beginning and they're there at the end.

Starting point is 01:01:45 No one's here in the middle. Yeah. Because it's the only fun part. The content of a marathon would be the intro and the exit. Like you'd literally make it into a clip that's 30 seconds. It'd be like, hurrah, yay!

Starting point is 01:01:54 And then maybe a couple of mile markers. And it's like, wait, we compressed this. What a bargain. Great return on time. You can't really witness patience unless you've literally followed it from the beginning, which of course you'll have your OG people

Starting point is 01:02:04 who are with you in the beginning of DRIV's CEO and they've seen the patients start to play out. But it's one of the things that like one of the ultimate gifts that I would hope, and the equal opposite of this is Steve Wynn, I think, talked about how his, the best thing in the world is that someone comes their first time to one of his casinos, bets big and wins.

Starting point is 01:02:20 It's the best thing ever. The worst thing that can happen is that the first time they come, they lose their money, because then they never gamble again. And so it's like he wants that big reinforcing event up front because then you can become a gambling addict, right? And so to the same degree, my hope for like my kid in the future or anyone who's trying to start out is that they, They have something that happens in their life where they're rewarded for delaying the outcome

Starting point is 01:02:45 and having a big jackpot as a result of the consistent effort where they delayed the reward. Because as soon as you do learn that lesson, you see how big the big can be when you wait. Yeah. It goes back to what we're saying about long termism as a strategy. But also, yeah, I only needed to look at that graph, the compounding returns graph once, actually looking at my own audience growth and saying that I did a thousand posts on Instagram and reached a thousand followers

Starting point is 01:03:13 and then in my last three when I had 7,000 followers, I gained 300,000 followers in three posts because Carousel's who dropped in Instagram was rewarding everybody for Carousel back then and me seeing that graph and then going, oh, it's slow, then it's fast in success and then starting the Dyer of a year

Starting point is 01:03:29 and for three years nobody fucking listening and then all of a sudden it was like, it was just fucking crazy, it just went vertical line up and go, oh, it's the same Instagram graph I saw all those years ago. So actually, you know, it's slow, then it's fast. But most people, if you've never experienced slow, you think, oh, I'm inadequate, I fucked up, I'm dumb. But you now, you have that religion.

Starting point is 01:03:48 Yeah. There are mistakes of picking the wrong path, but I think there are more mistakes of abandoning the right path. How do you know, though? So there's a handful of, I think, entrepreneur questions that are eternally unanswerable, which is when do you push and when do you pivot? Like, how much risk do I take on? Like, should I consume or invest? you don't know when you die. True.

Starting point is 01:04:10 Right? And so with the push and pivot one, the best answer that I have to is, because I get this one a lot. Like, hey, it's really hard. Should I pivot the business, change it or should I try and push through? My actual answer is,

Starting point is 01:04:20 if you had a fundamental assumption that you based the business on that has been proven untrue from your business activities, I think it makes sense to pivot. If none of your original thesis are incorrect, it's just not happening as fast as you want

Starting point is 01:04:33 or as easily as you want, then you push. What's interesting is, like the nature of being a founder as well on that is going earlier than the world. Like when you think about outside success, like everyone understands space now and they're like, oh, we can do reusable rockets now. We get it. But being the first guy or the first woman, I think is really the essence of a founder. They go earlier than the world's current available evidence. And thus there needs to be some kind of framework that you have. One of my frameworks,

Starting point is 01:05:01 which I've never articulated before, and I don't even know if this is going to sound correct, but it's just always guided me is, do I believe that I'm offering even a tiny group of people scarce value? So when I started the diary of a CEO, I was making Facebook videos with people like Jshahe, we could get tens of millions of views on Facebook watch back then.

Starting point is 01:05:21 No one was mentioning it. So I remember that I made this video about relationships that did 33 million views. No one would mention it. No one. And then I started this podcast called The Dyer of a CEO in my bedroom. I went to Apple, bought this microphone for $100, I've plugged it into garage band, tried to edit it myself, uploaded it.

Starting point is 01:05:36 And like my two best friends, the look on their phases in the office, Ash and Oliver, when they listened to it, they had never reacted to me like that ever before for the Facebook videos I've made. And then, when I didn't upload the next week, Oliver Yonchev came to me and said, when's the episode coming out? For me, that was it. Yeah. For me, I was like, I've done something here that's delivered scarce value to the world, so much so that one of my best friends who's very honest with me is asking me when the next one is. And so now I follow that. So when I'm thinking about the bets we make on the future,

Starting point is 01:06:05 I'm obsessed about finding things that are delivering scarce value, even if they're unscalable. I think you bring up a really good point about the unscailable part. Because, so two parts of this. So one is people will not do things. I see beginning entrepreneurs. They're like, well, that's not scalable. And I'm like, you're broke.

Starting point is 01:06:22 Yeah. You're broke. It's okay. You can not be skilled. You can just make money. That's okay. But it also assumes that your future soft with more skills and more resources won't have the ability to figure out how to scale it.

Starting point is 01:06:33 Yeah. And most things are like, we're building cities in the middle of the fucking ocean. If you're starting a business, and this is where you have to not sell out of your own wallet, and that's the nature of the offers book, is start with the most absurdly valuable thing you possibly can. So whatever price you want to charge,

Starting point is 01:06:50 add one or two zeros to it. Okay, and it's like, that's crazy. I agree, crazy. What would you have to do in order for that to be worth it? And then you list out all the things you do. I mean, well, if I was going to get somebody in shape, I'd probably go to their house. I would help them grocery shop. I would drive them to the gym and back from the gym to make sure that they actually did it.

Starting point is 01:07:07 For a hundred grand, is it worth it? And they're like, well, it's not scalable. It's like, well, you only need five. And I think when you're starting out, there's huge value in having unscailable services because, one, you'll get better customers because you're going to be charging much more for something that's a little bit more premium. And the value of talking to people richer than you will do more for you than what you we're doing for them. So like they will shift your worldview, which is why like a lot of people

Starting point is 01:07:33 like caddies who talk to all these millionaires when they're playing golf. It's like they learn so much from the people like how do you make your money? Like they learn so much worldview of, oh, I shouldn't be thinking this way. I should be thinking like this. So one is you get that. The second is that you are able to practice the unscailable thing. Yeah. And then you can figure out how do I, how do I take the scarce value? Okay, this is not scalable. Fine. We can just say it's not scalable. okay, are there elements of this that are scalable that I now know because I've done it rather than because I thought about it? Because your thought experiments, and I'd say for myself too, are pretty terrible. Like our ability to predict the future is pretty god awful.

Starting point is 01:08:12 And so we think we know what it's going to be like. And we usually have no idea. And so it's like, go do it. You'll collect way richer data that no one else has done because it was unscailable. And then you can actually create something that's more scalable that is unique because you actually went through it. And from a, this is getting a little bit more business haddy, but from a branding perspective, saying, hey, I have a handful of clients that pay me $2,000 a month to do this premium thing. For those of you can't afford that, I now have this thing, you've already anchored high. They see you as the person on the hill because you deal with these unscalable, my private clients. And then you can have, like you look at the Tesla model of start with the Roadster, and then you have the Model S, and then you work your way down to the masses. And so I'm a big believer in pricing. as high as you can, make the very premium thing first, let that be high cash flow, high margin, low scalability, so that you can then have the money to start working your way down to more people.

Starting point is 01:09:09 Well, if I was to forensically analyze your business now, and then I brought in Alex who started that business on day one, and I go, look at how unscalable all this stuff is that he's accomplished. I actually would make the case from what you were just saying that actually the essence of value creation in business is solving problems that didn't look scalable. I was just thinking about even the Darius here from the minute you leave. Like so right now the team in there that are doing the testing, they're actually making you a book as we speak. They took photos of us while we were sat here.

Starting point is 01:09:37 And when this interview ends, they're going to walk in and hand me the book. I'm going to sign it and pass it to you. That book is going to contain quotes from fans that loved our last conversation. They're currently printing them off on Polaroids. They're writing in it. When this conversation's done, we're going to test your name 300 times using ads to see how to introduce you. I know Alex Hamosi is going to win because you're a big name now.

Starting point is 01:09:53 But you think about when we started the podcast. Imagine me there with on Garad. band. With a $100 mic. That's not scalable. It's not scalable. I use this frame a lot, which is that you are trying to solve

Starting point is 01:10:06 tomorrow's problems with today's resources. It's a fallacy. It's ridiculous. You don't have the money. You don't have the skill. You don't have the connections. Don't have resources. You don't have the experience

Starting point is 01:10:14 and the track record. But future you will. But the hard part is future is a stranger. And so I think we make a lot of this content to try and approximate as closely as possible to just pull the first step. First, I'm going to take. to say, believe, like, you will figure it out.

Starting point is 01:10:29 Like, as long as you do not quit, you'll win. Like, you just have to not stop. It's basically it. You just have to not stop. As long as you get feedback, and you take the feedback, and you improve, and you do that long enough time, and you win. So just to be clear that you're not saying pursue a bad idea all the way and just be stubborn about the pursuit of a bad idea.

Starting point is 01:10:47 You're saying iterate your way. Yeah, we have to get feedback. Yeah. I mean, if you want to have a doggy skateboard, and you pitch 100 dog owners on the doggy skateboard, And then none of them want it. And you're like, well, I really believe in this doggy skateboard idea. And then you bring them the doggy skateboard and then they really still don't want it.

Starting point is 01:11:05 You probably shouldn't sell doggy skateboards. So you should quit the doggy skateboard business? Yes. But you shouldn't quit business. Okay. I think it's local versus global. Even if you just reframe failure in that way, it makes it way more palatable. Like, you figuring it out is a lot of failures.

Starting point is 01:11:18 I mean, how many failed episodes, failed headlines, packaging? Oh, my God. You forgot to turn the mic on and did the whole episode. I'm sure. Yeah. Someone came in and stole the fucking hard drive with audio on it. It's like, there's going to be 100 of those. But as long as it doesn't become a global failure of I'm no longer doing this, then you're good.

Starting point is 01:11:36 One of the smartest things a business can do is build like a bigger company without actually hiring like one. But the problem we all face is that most companies don't have every skill in-house. So when I look at the businesses seeing real success today, the consistent pattern with all of them is how quickly they move. They bring in specialists with skills in emerging areas to keep themselves ahead. Even in our company, we spent the last year pulling in talent across areas like AI-native strategy, no-code builds and product workflows. And we find this talent for our long-time partner, Fivert Pro. Their premium service only shows you vetted talent, so you've always got the safeguard that anyone you pull in to help you with a complex project has the skills that you're after

Starting point is 01:12:16 and will deliver to the same high standards as your internal team. And most importantly, they'll keep up with the pace. It's a simple strategy, but it lets us stay agile without compromising on quality. So if you need these kind of skills in your business, head to pro.fiver.com to find a pioneering talent to fill your business's gaps. That's pro.fiverr.com. One of the great fascinations I have, and almost one of the unteachables is self-awareness. Yeah. I'll say judgment. Judgment. Yeah. Because I, have you ever had someone come up to you and say something grandi, they want to go to the moon, let's say, hypothetical? And you look at them and you go, you're not a space man. Do you know, You know what I mean? And how do you, how do you, how do you then give them that advice,

Starting point is 01:12:56 which is like raise oneself awareness, know what you're good at and what you're bad at? I think what people are trying to get at is an understanding, a more accurate understanding of base reality. And the people who are achieving the things that you want to achieve and you have been able to, fundamentally, if you're doing stuff and what you want to have happened is not happening, your model of the world is either incorrect or the variables you have are incorrect. How did you cultivate a more accurate vision of reality? So I'm a big believer in behaviorism. What's that?

Starting point is 01:13:27 Operant conditioning, which is basically how you train machines, how they figured out how to train AI, which is reinforcement training, is the exact same way you train humans. Okay. And so when you see yourself as the subject that is being trained, then we can make better predictions of will people buy? Will people take this offer? Let's say I've got a grandpa, and he doesn't want to take his medicine. And the medicine the doctor said was going to extend his life by 10 years. Okay. The nurse is at home with me, and she's going to try and give grandpa the pill.

Starting point is 01:14:01 And he says, it tastes like shit. I don't want to have it. It just brushes her away. She comes back. She throws her hands up, and she's like, you lead a horse to water. You can't make a drink, right? The operationalist or the behaviorist would say, no, you've made many other options, the more likely option than taking the pill.

Starting point is 01:14:18 And so what we need to do is make the pill the nicest thing. an easiest option available to him. And so the first thing you would do is you'd crush the pill up. And then I would say, okay, let's put it in some lemonade. Put it in the fridge, make it ice cold. All right, I'm going to bring out some peanuts that are salty. I'm going to put it in front of the grandpa, right? And then I'm going to come out with a chess board or a backgammon board.

Starting point is 01:14:39 And I'm going to sit in front of him. I'm going to set it all up and say, hey, I know you said you wanted to play backgammon. And I've said, no, the last three weeks. Here's the lemonade. Do you want to play? If you finish the lemonade, we can play. how likely is it that grandpa now drinks the lemonade? Super high.

Starting point is 01:14:54 But at the end of the day, we just, we didn't persuade. We arranged the conditions to maximize the likelihood of the outcome that we want. What people miss is that the amount of attack vectors that people who succeed approach a problem with is orders of magnitude greater than someone who is starting out. Is they're like, I talked to three people, and that was it. And they said they didn't want it. And I tell this story because it was it was one of those big moments for me, which is I had a mentor. He said, you should put some flyers out. That's how he advertised. He had a big chain of 22 locations.

Starting point is 01:15:28 And I was like, I'll put some flyers out. I put 300 out. And then nothing happened. What one person called and they said, I digged his car. And then I was like, thank God he didn't. I didn't have any money. So he called me up or I called him like a week or two later. And he was like, oh, how'd the, you know, how the flowers go? And I was like, I was ready to, I'm going to show you. Yeah, I'm going to show you. dude nothing happened man and he didn't even like i was like i was waiting for him to try and fight me and he was like well what was your test size i was like hmm i was like i put out 300 flyers and he was like yeah it's tough to know if anything works at 300 he's like we usually put out 5,000 per test batch until we know it works he said then we do 3,000 a day after that and so he was

Starting point is 01:16:12 doing 150,000 flyers a month, and I'd put out 300. And so as much as people don't think that, like, it's like work harder, it's the volume of activity in output that people who are a hundred steps ahead of you really is oftentimes a hundred times more. Now, it seems unfathomal because you're looking at the top of the hill and saying, how do I get there? But you start by making one. And then you learn through how painful the inefficiency is, like when you're editing, that you're doing the split test for the headlines, 300 of them at a time. You learn because you're like, this is so painful, it works, but my God, is it painful, that that is what motivates you because you want the payoff, but you don't want the pain to figure out ways to make it more efficient. And then when it

Starting point is 01:16:53 becomes efficient, you did the scarce work that no one else wants to do, because no one even knows it works as well as it does. And then all of a sudden you have that, you have a scarce, competitive advantage over everyone else. At the very top of that, I heard this idea of like doing and listening at the same time. And this sounds very simple. You're talking about reinforcing enforcement learning being the way that you tune yourself to reality. Yeah. But you even said yourself, once upon a time, you were doing a lot of listening, books. You were reading and there wasn't much doing.

Starting point is 01:17:19 Some people just do the doing and no listening. And so they don't tune. But this sort of like doing and then sort of reinforcement learning based on the outcomes is how one cultivates their self-awareness. That's actually the most accurate definition I've ever heard of like, that's actually how you get more in tune with the world. It's through painful sometimes feedback. Data.

Starting point is 01:17:38 And then the other thing I heard was you're talking just about like, just believing in human incentives. And this, like, it sounds like a, it took me 10 years to just settle on the simple idea that humans don't really behave outside of their incentives unless they're psychopaths. And that's like why they go to jail because they acted outside of social incentives. They like killed someone or something. Actually, when you think about team building or customers, the first question should be, why aren't they?

Starting point is 01:18:03 It's like, what are the incentives in which they are making their decision? And you talked about that example there of giving someone the gammon board and some, You're changing his incentives? Yeah. We just need to move the levers around. And so it's like if you're not selling well to get to a business situation, it's like you haven't made buying from you the most convenient nicest option. It's such an important way to think like you offer someone a job and they say, no, I don't want the job. You can think lots of things.

Starting point is 01:18:26 But actually, if you just reason it down to the first principal incentives, what was, and it could be a seesaw, like kind of like your value trade here. What did I offer them? What did it cost them? Yeah. And was that net positive? So I have this. So I write all my persuasion like this. This is how we do it.

Starting point is 01:18:46 So we say plus plus, plus minus, minus, minus. This is the easiest way to write copy, the easiest way to think about marketing. If you do the thing, you get more good stuff. If you don't do the thing, you get more bad stuff. If you do the thing I want. or so you don't do the thing, you get less good stuff. And if you do what I want, you get less bad stuff. And so this and this are our persuasion elements that we say to do the thing,

Starting point is 01:19:20 but we also have to call playing the don't, which is like, hey, also, we have these situations of, let's say that you don't sign up for my fitness program. Well, that means that you're not going to have these times with your kids in the future, right? Less good stuff, right? You're going to have more health issues, more bad stuff. And the people who you care about who you want approval from aren't going to give you that approval that you so desperately yearn for. And so we just ping pong between these persuasive elements,

Starting point is 01:19:50 but all they are is saying, more good, less bad, if you do, the stuff I want. And as someone who employs hundreds of people now, this is kind of how I think about behavioral change in a big group of people. You can stand in front of the team and say, hey, everybody, adopt AI, by the way, please. Please adopt AI. But their incentive structure is to do their job. And have you read The Innovators Dilemma? It's one of my favorite books of all time on the subjective.

Starting point is 01:20:12 No, but I'm familiar with it. Talks to the same thing as well, which is just humans just act inside their incentive structure. Want to change humans, change their incentive structure. A lot of people who are delusional when they start out think that they're going to change people. And I think one of my favorite market, I think Gary Halpert said this is a copywriter. He said, we don't want to create demand. He said, we want to channel it. It was just such an interesting nuance.

Starting point is 01:20:37 He's like, that demand, like the demand needs to be there. We just need to just carve a little bit of that river and point it towards us. And I think when you're thinking about for you with the show, the attention is there. The attention is being spent every second of every day from every human. And so we're not going to create attention. We're going to channel it. And we're going to make our option the nicest, most convenient option compared to alternatives. And then it's really just getting into the very gritty details of who I need to make this for.

Starting point is 01:21:04 Then you get into avatars and sub-segments and markets. what makes it attractive to one person might not make it attract to another. And that is why probably one of the highest leveraged decisions that you make with the business is who do I serve? Do you have to be intentional about that

Starting point is 01:21:18 when you're starting a business or offering any product to anyone, whether it's content? Do you have to, at the start, decide who it's for? Yes and no, which is a terrible answer. But to start, you just need to get anybody to give you money.

Starting point is 01:21:28 You have then met the requisites for being an entrepreneur. You've accepted money from a stranger. Congratulations, you have a business. Most businesses that I encounter, especially in services, because it's 80% of the, at least in the U.S., is 78% of all businesses are service-based. Typically, it starts with accepting all money from everyone because you're like,

Starting point is 01:21:44 oh, I do podcast, agency stuff. Oh, you want a startup. Yeah, I can help you too. Like, because they have a pulse on a credit card and one of those was the requirement for being a customer, right? You take what you can get, right? But you quickly realize that it becomes very difficult to scale that, and that's okay because you had to do what you need to do to survive and get started,

Starting point is 01:22:03 and that's fine. But usually between one and three million, you have to make a decision where you say, hey, in order for me to scale this, now that I have the resources and the experiences and the skill, I can say these customers are easier to deal with and pay us more than these customers. And if I didn't have to serve 10 different types of customers and I only had to serve one type of customer, it would make the operations in the back way easier because I could start templatizing and start systemizing what our delivery is. And on the front end, if we're advertising people, instead of saying we do advertise your podcast agency for everyone, we say, we help. doctors generate patients using podcasts. It's like, oh, all of a sudden, the correct customer knows that this is for them, right? And so now we're attracting the right people. And then those people are the ones that we already figured out through trial and error

Starting point is 01:22:48 and feedback are worth the most. And then we have a more scalable product because we don't have to make 10 things for 10 people. We make one thing for 10 people, right? Cut once, sell twice. That's the idea, not cut once, sell once. I almost hate this question, but I'm going to ask it anyway. Are there any obvious businesses that have emerged in your point of view because of what's going on in the world that a young person that wants to cut their teeth should probably be aiming at? 15 years ago, for me, it was starting an agency.

Starting point is 01:23:15 I think that opportunity is a little bit saturated now, if they're I say. I think that the nature of agencies has changed. I think if you want to do like a Reddit reputation management now, that's kind of a more emerging offer because Reddit's become a bigger and bigger platform and people look there. Like I think the old school meta ad agency might be harder to crack into than some of the more newer opportunities that exist and clipping agencies, things like. Those things are still opportunities right now, I think. So if we have beginner opportunities and then we have what I think are great opportunities that are, let's just say not and just AI. Because there's the obvious answer of like start an AI thing and automate for small businesses. And yes, you should absolutely do that.

Starting point is 01:23:50 And there's lots of money to be made there. Great. Okay. Outside of that, what's not going to change? What can you bet on? I'm going to bet that humans are going to want to still. want to look beautiful in the future, as they do now. I think people are going to want to stay young looking. And so I think the longevity, med spa, look a certain way, peptide, all of that

Starting point is 01:24:13 world is going to crush and is already crushing right now. There's a huge supply demand issue. Believe it or not, I think wealth advisors, because I see so many businesses. And once I pay attention to are the people who are making more money than I think their skill level would connote, right, would make sense for it. Like on the flip side, I say, like, if I see somebody who's doing $20 million a year as a restaurateur, I'm like, bro, you could probably do $200 million a year in a different business. I had a conversation with a gym owner that was doing $10 million a year, and it was a service-based gym, not a facility-elease-ish gym, which is different. Like, a crunch fitness is just like, you use the equipment, whatever, but a true service-based

Starting point is 01:24:49 gym, which is either personal trainer or semi-private training, really hard business to scale. Easy to start, hard to scale. And he was like, what do I think, you know, what do you think the opportunity is for me? I was like, honestly, dude, you could dig your exact skill set, because you've got 100 employees and you're trying to deliver an amazing experience, but with low-skilled labor, you have to maintain culture, there's all of this stuff that you have to do. It's like, if you took that same skill set and just applied it to a superior vehicle, you'd make more. Now, you might not want that, and you might be happy with your existing business,

Starting point is 01:25:15 which keep on, just know that it's a harder, it's a harder business. So all that to say, I think wealth is a big bucket. Wealth related services are still crushing. Insurance, risk is still going to exist in the future. So there's going to need to be insurance. People are going to to fractionalize risk, which is what insurance functionally does. The longevity, looking nice is one.

Starting point is 01:25:38 And then anything that's not cool has like a discount applied to it is always something that's very interesting to look at. It's kind of like trash. Like no one wants to be like, oh, so what do you do? It's like, I'm in trash. You know, like it just, it doesn't have the same gravitas as I'm a doctor, except that guy could be a billionaire. Right.

Starting point is 01:25:53 And so if I look at like, oh, I do, you know, I do waste management for old people. like, you know, human fecal matter. It's like, someone's got to, you know, like, someone's got to figure something out, right? And so those are the types of businesses where it's like, look where no one wants to look. Look at, look for things that people would not want to say at parties. There's usually big opportunities there if there's obviously money where I said old people, because right now it's so, wealth is so concentrated on that. I did my favorite video of the year, I did this breakdown. And because it was my favorite video, I think I got like 300,000 views.

Starting point is 01:26:24 But like, but what I did was really interesting is that I took wealth in the United States. and I had it represent $100. 100% of wealth is $100. If you looked at it, right, and you had a circle for all, you know, 100 people at different percentiles, right? There's like $2 in the bottom 50th percentile. The bottom 50 percent of people has roughly $2.

Starting point is 01:26:46 Of the $100 in wealth. Wow. It's crazy. And then you've got your next 40, and I think that was like $27, something like that. Then you have your next 9%, which has like 36%. And then the top 1% has 31.

Starting point is 01:27:04 Hopefully the math, math. But it's somewhere in the neighborhood. And so when you look at that division and then you're like, who should I serve? Many people who are starting out are here. And the only people they see are here. And so their view of the world is not accurate. And this is why they stay broke. Because they try to sell to other people who have no money.

Starting point is 01:27:29 and then assume that no one has money. The interesting thing I noticed, and I think anybody that's brand of service business will be able to relate, is when I started out, I was selling to startup founders who had an app idea, whose marketing budget was approximately $10,000,

Starting point is 01:27:45 and I was asking for $10,000. Per year. And they were watching me. They were counting every download they got on their apps, and slowly we managed to move up. And the remarkable thing is, this is a crazy thing to say, but it was easier from a client management or a client account management perspective to deal with Coca-Cola

Starting point is 01:28:03 than it was Dave with his dating app idea. Coca-Cola, who would give you potentially six figures in budgets, would be a little bit more casual than Dave with his dating app idea where he'd put his mortgage on the line. But it's not easy to move up because to get that meeting with Coca-Cola to be able to present to them. You've got to earn it somehow. So it's all good saying it, but the reality of getting up there is... They think more about credibility track record. They'll work with people who are highly credible and who they can see a reality behind.

Starting point is 01:28:35 And so there's nothing wrong with starting to sell the friends and family, but the goal, again, that's if your goal is to make more money with the business, should be to move up market. And if you look, so this is kind of interesting, something I've noticed, if you look at the price of a service, and this is specifically for service businesses, the price of the service almost has a one-to-one correlation with how advanced the business

Starting point is 01:28:59 and business owner are, just as a forcing function. Because in order to go up in price, like a service business done well means you did a good job. You have more demand than you have supply. And so what do you do when supply and demand crisscross? You go up in price. And so you continue this loop. And as long as you continue to deliver more value

Starting point is 01:29:19 than you're charging for, you continue to have more demand. And you just keep laddering up. And this is why price is such a strong signal for value, which why when you're starting out, it's hard to hear us say, hey, add a zero to your price tag, add two zeros to your price tag. Because if someone comes to me and says, hey, I want to do all of your social media management

Starting point is 01:29:35 for $2,000 a month. I'm like, dude, you can't even handle me. Like, even if I said yes, you can't. The math doesn't math. There's no way you can do it. And so if someone comes to me, like the minimum I'm probably going to be willing to spend is, I don't know, 15,000 a month for a vendor. Like the minimum I could really possibly, and it'd be probably a smaller shop. And I know the founders probably still integrally involved in final next. I'm okay with some founders like being good and basically me seeing them as a

Starting point is 01:29:58 fractional employee that I'm paying less, and that works fine. All that to say, like, you want to have your price go up, one, because you serve better customers, two, because you have better margins, three, because there'd be less headache. And four, because it's a signal of how good you are what you do. And the best businesses and business owners will know, oh, this is for me. You signal to them that you, like, you want to go out market, but you have low market prices. There's something called the Van West Endor pricing analysis. You might have heard of it. It's from the 1970s. I do this most times when I launch a new offering. And so there's four questions you ask. Number one, at what price would this be so expensive

Starting point is 01:30:27 that you wouldn't even consider it? Number two, at what price would this be so cheap that it would be impossible that it would be able to be valuable? It'd be too cheap. At what price would it be right at the edge? You'd have to really consider it, but you'd end up buying it.

Starting point is 01:30:40 And then at what price would it be a bargain, a good deal? And so when you actually take a scatter plot to this, and now, I used to have to do these manually. Now you can literally just take the data and put it right in the AI and say, hey, runner Van West, from Dorpe Analysis on this, which is amazing.

Starting point is 01:30:52 So you can get it in six minutes. And so you get these, there's four points on the graph if you have the scattered dots. And so you have the point of marginal cheapness, which is basically beyond this point, the majority more people will think it's too cheap to be believable.

Starting point is 01:31:09 And above this price, it's too expensive to be considerable. And so what you can find is you can do area under the curve to see at what price would I make the most money if I had a higher friction sales process. And if I wanted people to simply purchase it, so if I want to have an automated sales process,

Starting point is 01:31:25 sales process where my range is. And so there's a range in there where it says, okay, right here is the point where you'll make the most number of sales. Now you'd have to factor in margin, like gross margins of the product. But you can guess, like this is how when you want to launch a shampoo, this is how they do it. And so we can price it precisely. Is it a bellcuff or is it? Oh yeah. So is it like a, yeah. But sometimes it's so, interestingly, sometimes you've double galsions that'll happen. Because it's different customers. Yeah. So when, So when I run these, I ask those four questions, but I also ask for the customer stats. So then I can slice it by saying, what do the rich customers think?

Starting point is 01:32:03 What's the pricing curve for them? What's the pricing curve for poor customers? What's the pricing curve for home services? What's the pricing curve for? And so then you can get really, really accurate with initial pricing. Of all the ideas that you've put out into the world, what are the sort of headline ideas or questions that you've found to be most compelling to people? Almost all the core concepts in this book come down to figuring out. out who you want to sell, what you want to sell them, and how to get them to buy. And most of

Starting point is 01:32:34 my content focus is more in acquisition since the vast majority of small businesses, say one to 50 million. Not always. But I'd say 70% of businesses, this is rough estimates that come through our doors, are demand constraint. They could use more customers than they have. 30% are supply constrained. The phone's ringing, but they just don't have enough account reps. They don't have of technicians, whatever it is. And so what's really interesting about this, all of these folks when taking an aggregate, is that every problem is a marketing problem. And I'll sell you on this idea. So if we were to think about a business as, okay, we've got lead gen, right, as activity number one, we've got nurture as number two, we've got sales, we've got onboarding,

Starting point is 01:33:22 and then we've got retention slash ascension, right? Getting them to keep paying and get them buy more shit. Now, this is the demand side for customers, right? Hopefully everyone's kind of aligned with that. Now, if you're supply constrained, which means that you have more customers than you can handle, more people are interested in your stuff, let's say you're the solopreneur and you're like, how do I, like, there's only one of me. What do I do?

Starting point is 01:33:46 Like, yeah, you're supply constrained. If you had unlimited you, you could make more money. Right. So what's the equivalent version of this? On the supply side, you have application generation. And then you have application nurture. What does that mean application not? Basically, we're working these leads.

Starting point is 01:34:05 We have these applicants. We need to get them scheduled. We need to get them booked. We need to make sure that they're not getting lost in the process. You know, like how quickly can we line these interviews up, all that, right? We have the interviews themselves, which is the sale, right? And then we have onboarding like you do for a new employee. and then you have retention

Starting point is 01:34:21 and then the ascension is they're going up, right? Are they moving up? Which means that you just treat humans the way you treat humans in a pipeline and a business. And so if you have a demand problem but you know how to get employees,

Starting point is 01:34:38 then do the stuff that you get to get employees to get more customers. If you know how to get customers, but you don't know how to get employees, use the exact same process, which means who's writing the right? the copy for your ads and your promotions and your outreach attempts. Well, somebody probably should take a look at it. If you haven't looked at this, by the way, and you're a slightly bigger business owner, you will be horrified by the outbound messages that are getting sent on your behalf to people. You'll be horrified by the job postings that your company is putting. And you're like, no one would respond to this. How would you think this would work? From a nurture perspective, the leads aren't getting worked. No one's following up. We're not giving them any materials to sell them on our business, just like you would with a prospect. Like,

Starting point is 01:35:20 Why don't we have case studies? Why don't we have a video sales letter that tells us the whole business? So every person who comes into account watches a VSL for me. And it's a 13-minute thing of just be like, here's how the business works. And it's, this is our real estate arm. This is like, and it shows everything. And like, I'm giving proof. And this is John.

Starting point is 01:35:36 And John's an employee. And John loves it here, you know, whatever. And so then in the interview itself, it's like, do you have a script? Well, you have a sales script. Why would you not have an interview script? Precan questions. Do we roll play this? Or we roll play this.

Starting point is 01:35:48 isn't this just as important, if not more important? Is there more leverage on getting one 10 out of 10 talent person than just one customer? Yeah. On the onboarding, are we just, do we have any process? Do we have 30, 60, 90 of what's going to happen over the next 30, 60, 90 days? And what is required for them and what information they need to consume so they can become proficient? And then once they are onboarded, what's their career path look like? How do they, like, one of my favorite questions is when I have somebody I really like,

Starting point is 01:36:16 I say, what would it take for you to work here forever? What would it take? Just tell me what it take. I can say no. Just tell me what it take. And then I can start moving the pieces around to figure out how I can get this person to stay forever. But the same thing happens. If I have a customer that I like a lot, like, what would it take for us to be your sole provider forever? Especially because I know you have more enterprise experience, sometimes saying, hey, let me be the sole provider. Let's go exclusive. Let's lock in a three-year contract. And I'll give you these other things for free if we lock in it. And I'll never work with these three competitors. Yeah. And so almost all problems. in business can be solved by more people finding out about your stuff, either to work for you or to buy from you. Which also means that you probably have ongoing marketing to your customers. I think there shouldn't be ongoing marketing to your team and employees. Do we want our customers to give us referrals? Yeah. Do we want our employees to give us referrals? Do we have an incentive for people to bring referrals? There's a great story. A friend of a friend had a $10 million

Starting point is 01:37:14 dollar or your business. He talked to somebody in the exact same space as him, who was way further ahead, and he was in business that had, like, agents that worked from, like, kind of like a brokerage. And the mentor told him, so what's the incentive that you have for your agents to bring more agents? He's like, oh, I, you know, I pay him 500 bucks if they bring a new agent on. And he was like, okay, what do you make on a productive agent per year in gross profit? It was 250,000 a year. Productive agent, gross profit. He's like, so you're only willing to spend $500 to make 250,000? He's like, what would you spend for 250,000?

Starting point is 01:37:49 He was like, I mean, I don't know, 50 grand. He was like, yeah. So why don't you make your incentive 25 to start? So he took his incentive from $500 for referral to $25,000. And he took his company from $10 million to $400 million. Yeah, it's crazy.

Starting point is 01:38:05 I think about this a lot. Even with recruiting, like, people are like, oh, headhunters cost a lot of money. I'm like, fucking hell. For really exceptional talent, it's almost, it's always a deal. always a great deal. Going back in time, if I were to give the, like, what has changed about me then versus me now is that my standards for talent are significantly higher and my tolerance

Starting point is 01:38:25 for letting someone be mediocre and stay are lower. I think probably all the entrepreneurs I've ever interviewed would say that exact thing. I remember one particular entrepreneur who's built a hundred billion dollar business publicly listed. He said at 20, I thought hiring mattered. 30, I thought it was kind of important. At 40, I've realized it's the single most important thing. And this is a guy that's built a $100 billion publicly traded company. And I was like, but it's funny because that's what all of them say. Yeah. But this is a broader relationship advice lesson, which is just the best and worst decisions

Starting point is 01:38:55 you're making your life of people. And I mean, I look at some of these things here and I go, I mean, it's true for you. Yeah. And all right. This is a photo of your lovely wife. Nugget Zone. You think about the variance of your outcome if you had chosen someone else. I do think about that.

Starting point is 01:39:10 I do think about that. It's probably the single best financial. decision that I ever made was marrying Layla. Because, and this is, this is no shade to any, any, any relationship that exists of mine or anyone's, you know, people optimize for different things. And I'm not saying I optimize for finances. I'm saying, but within that lens, she was just down. And she believed in me, a lot of times more than I believed in myself. And I think, I think that's all anyone really wants, or at least for me, that I wanted was, and things is that hasn't stopped.

Starting point is 01:39:53 As the stakes have gotten higher, I remember there was this business that I was, that I was working with and I was going to meet with the whole team. And I was like, this is like a really tough problem that they're asking me to help with. And I was like, and she just like, cut me off and she's like, good thing, you're the best at it. And that you're going to give them more help than anyone else could. And it's just like, whether that's true or not, it was exactly what I needed to hear in that moment.

Starting point is 01:40:15 And so I also say this to people we're starting out. It's like, I do not have perfect self-security. You know what I mean? Like, I wouldn't say it's imposter syndrome because that's not true. But, like, I have doubts of, like, I don't know if I'm able to solve this. I mean, I hope I am and I keep working on it, but like, I don't know. And as the problem becomes more complex and have higher stakes, it's like, this is harder and will cost more if I fail.

Starting point is 01:40:42 The pressure feels the same. I would say the only difference is that we have more resources to handle them. And so in a lot of ways, when you're starting out, it's kind of like fighting a bear with your bare hands. But when you're further down, it's like trying to slay a dragon, but at least you have an army. And so the foe is bigger, but your resources are bigger too. And in some ways, it's almost easier later than it is when you start. But you only earn the right to face those foes by going through the earlier stages when you didn't have the resources because you learn the grit. you learn the scrappiness.

Starting point is 01:41:19 And I think that, like, it's a right of passage. And Layla was willing to go all in. And I would say that, like, if anything, kind of like a jockey bet for VCs, like you bet on the horse, not the jockey, not the horse. When she saw me, I had, you know, a handful of gyms. And it wasn't like, I'm Alex Hormozzi, the, you know, whatever I am now. I was just a gym owner. And I was 26 and I worked really hard.

Starting point is 01:41:42 And she was like, I don't know where we're going to go, but I know how. Alex is going to work tirelessly to get there. And she just always believed. And I think that if, like, I think the person that you were married is either going to increase the likelihood that you hit your goals or decrease. And you should need to decide whether that's important to you. If you were single, do you think you would be as successful as you are now? I wouldn't be as successful.

Starting point is 01:42:10 Because number one, there have been plenty of moments because I don't struggle with anxiety. I struggle with apathy. not caring. Why do I even bother doing this? We already have enough money. Who cares? Layla, in a lot of ways, has bigger dreams than I do. I've always had big goals for finances,

Starting point is 01:42:28 but at a certain point, and I think I hit this kind of like last year for me, which is weird because I always, like, people were always like, when is enough enough? And it's kind of like working out. I got to a point where I was like almost 250 and lean, and I was like, this is more than enough. I'm going to come back down.

Starting point is 01:42:45 And so I've had bigger. goals than most people for my fitness or muscles or whatever. I've had bigger goals than most people for money. But I also was like at that point when I hit it, I was like, I think this is enough for me. And Layla was like, it was never about the money for me. It never was. And I think that's why our dynamic worked really well. But she's always cared about the team more than anything. And she's like, her dream when she and I met was to build a place that people love to come to work. And if you do that, and it also has a good business model behind it, marketing and sales and pricing and all those other stuff,

Starting point is 01:43:18 it's like you end up making a lot of money. But I would have probably taken my foot off the gas earlier if it hadn't been for Layla. I think I would have struggled more operationally because Layla is, Layla will never get the credit that she deserves. But Layla is the, is a pure operator. Like, unbelievable leader,

Starting point is 01:43:39 that talent that I probably wouldn't have been able to either get or keep stay because of her. Like, I think if there was like a divorce in the business, I think the vast majority of people are going to be. I'm serious. Like, I know, like, self-awareness. People know what I'm good at. And I know people are loyal to Layla because she's just there for people. And so for those reasons, I don't think I would have kept my foot on the gas.

Starting point is 01:44:08 I don't think I would be able to operate nearly as complex of a business as we currently have. And on the inevitable, like, troughs of my most. motivation, she was the one who kind of carried me. A lot of people will be listening now, and they might be listening with their partner. Maybe they're listening alone. And they're thinking, you know, my partner isn't all that supportive of me. And dare I say, some people will be listening now and think their partner is actually against their ambition.

Starting point is 01:44:35 What do you say to those people? Figure out what you want. Like, we have to make trades. How do you, do you know what? It's tricky because some, Some of those people might say, right, fuck it, I'm going to dump her or him. And then they pursue the business for two, three years. They become successful and they're lonely as hell.

Starting point is 01:44:55 And they look back and go, do you know what? That was actually my insecurity and my shame. That drove me to do this. But now I've got the mansion and I'm here alone. I should have, she was a good girl. He was a good guy. I speak only from the perspective of how do you align the conditions to maximize the business outcome. That's where I come from in terms of how I'm speaking about this.

Starting point is 01:45:17 In terms of maximizing subjective well-being and your happiness, those factors are completely different. And so I think Arthur Brooks has this amazing visual example that I love, which is imagine two scenarios. One of them is that you drive your brand-new Ferrari to a three-star Michelin restaurant, and you have the corner booth eating the best food in the world looking out of you alone. Or piling into your beat-up, you know, Camry, going to a Denny's with your five-thes. best friends, which one is the one you think you're going to enjoy more? It's obvious. It's obvious. It's the second one. But we live our life like the first. And so I think if, again, it comes down to what you want. If you're like, this girl guy, whatever, like satisfy so many things, like, you will not find the perfect person because you're not perfect. And so it's just what on the stats of

Starting point is 01:46:14 this person am I willing to make trades on? Am I willing to have? Am I willing to have? have somebody who's maybe not the most supportive of my career, but maybe they're supportive of my subjective well-being. Maybe they're supportive of my extra coolers. Maybe they're supportive of my spiritual journey, whatever. They might just be supportive in different ways. And so, again, it's what do you want? And I think people, I had a, my first boss, or last boss, rather, said this thing to me, and it's really stuck with me. She said, figuring out what you want is 99% of the work. She said, the easy part is getting it. And I thought about that a lot because I was like, no, the hard part of scanning it.

Starting point is 01:46:49 And it's like, no, it's like, it's how many layers deep did you figure out what you really want? And I think that's, because when you really know what you want, then it's, then you just align the world to go get it. It's very hard to know what you want. Yeah. Because there's all these near-term temptations. There's this external noise. There's Instagram telling you that you want this. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:47:09 No, you need this. Yeah. So being able to drown out all of that noise and get to some kind of signal. and also to your point about sacrificing everything you could have had, you know, two, three, four, five. We want the upsides of all paths without the cost of each. And so this is why I still believe the decision making, which is the least sexy topic of all time, but still the most important. Decision making is the highest leverage thing that you can do in life, making good decisions. And is there, I mean, we've talked about frameworks.

Starting point is 01:47:40 Is there any framework for making a better decision as it relates to what we're talking about here? I think it's answering the first part, which is, what do I want to have happen? What do I want to have happen? Yeah, that's even that, that's, you know what, I'm probably speaking from experience here because when I was, what, 20 years old? Was it 20 or 19? Mark Knorr, friend of mine, mentor of mine, gave me this diary.

Starting point is 01:48:02 And I remember the first page I wrote in it when I wanted. And what I wrote was before the age of 25, Ranger over Sports to be my first car, a million dollars, six-pack girlfriend. I'll throw up there's picture of it on the screen. And I actually took a photo of it in my range. over at 24 years old. It's like a... But was that actually what I should have written down?

Starting point is 01:48:20 Well, I think it's probably what you wanted. Yeah. And then you updated your wants because you got it. Yeah. You found out that you wanted different things. Fortunately, there, my time horizon was quite small so I could figure out in three or four years without any, without any, like, damage that that was not the right thing to write down.

Starting point is 01:48:35 But some people orientate their lives to, like, I need to become a, let's say, billionaire. And the sacrifice to use one of your words along the way is, family, friends, mental health, health, and then you get there, and you go, gosh, I can't turn back time, I can't rebuild relationships, I can't call my mum now, she doesn't answer where she's gone. So that's kind of why I always pause on this question of what do you want, because I think we're actually like, as you say, like terrible at knowing. And I don't know a better way of knowing. Than getting in and deciding whether you want it or not. I think one of the interesting things

Starting point is 01:49:09 with wanting is that we only want what we don't have. You know, people who don't have kids want to have kids, people who have kids remember the times they didn't have kids, people were single when to get married, people were married, you know, reminisced by the times they get single. But I see that as inherently human, which is that we only remember good and not bad.

Starting point is 01:49:30 And that's a behavior thing. So like the reason that when you get drunk and then you're hung over the next day and you say, I'm never going to drink again, and then seven days later you drink again, is because punishment fades rewards sticks, which is why you go back to the old girlfriend and you still long for them, even though when you get back, you're like, oh my God, I first she was crazy.

Starting point is 01:49:45 What was I thinking? Right, but it's because we only remember the good, which is good to know, and I think evolutionary because it's like, you remember you got berries there, but you don't remember the sacrifice, like also the same degree from, like pregnancy. Horrible experience for many women, not all, but many women, it's a horrible experience.

Starting point is 01:50:00 But then you get this reward at the end, which is this baby, and then that just like fades away. And then you're like, you know what I want? Another baby. Speaking of babies, Alex. Yeah. There you go, you give me a jump off point. Layla's pregnant?

Starting point is 01:50:13 Yeah. How long until the baby arrives? Four months. Four months. Yeah, exciting. What are all the feelings? I can see a mixture of feelings in the face. I'm stoked, you know?

Starting point is 01:50:26 I'm stoked. I'd say I have elements of fear, mostly that I want to do a good job, you know, being a father. I can see Alex that you're scared. I can tell because I know you're, I've sat here probably for 10 hours over the last. I don't know how many years. Yeah. I'll tell you with the issue that I've been struggling the most with,

Starting point is 01:50:50 which is how do I define a good parent and how do I define a good child or a successful child? Which then just gets into sort of a meaning of life question, which is why I think it's so difficult. But like, I'll take the parent one, for example. If we define a good parent as a successful outcome for a child, one in what domains, right? Is it a billionaire who's lonely?

Starting point is 01:51:15 and sad. Is that a successful outcome? I don't know. But let's just assume the world's version of success, and I won't enumerate it. How many people who have all that success had bad childhoods? Do we now call their parents good parents? Can I posit something? And I've not had kids either. But what would happen if you removed both questions? Oh, just like, I'll just take it as it is. Well, I'll say it's very, I almost want to say it's impossible for me. because you control. You'd like to be able to control your out. I want to know what I'm doing.

Starting point is 01:51:48 I want to know where, like, I want, I ask what I want to have happened so that I can align all of my life to try and make that happen. And so if it's like, and even the question of like, what is a successful child is, is it a child who's happy? Many people would say, I just want my kid to be happy. That's fine. Is it my child is the maximum, makes the maximum impact on society? Different upbringing.

Starting point is 01:52:12 And like the trades that we make at the beginning, I probably won't be able to have a kid who has both, or at least the degree to which I can steer. So I have three other siblings. I'm the youngest of four. And one could theoretically say my parents were a constant, the environment to some degree was a constant. There was slight changes.

Starting point is 01:52:31 Us four, you've got this, me, the youngest, this crazy like entrepreneur, didn't go to university, blah, blah, blah, blah. You got Jason, super genius at school, rewrote the textbooks to make them smarter. Works in this business now, my business. mathly rewrote the on the front of the newspapers. Kevin,

Starting point is 01:52:45 smarter than all of us. Savant-level genius. Said to me when he was younger that he could learn any language in four weeks, fluently, if you gave number one in the world and runescape at one point. People would watch him online play. Super genius. Decided he doesn't want to go into the world of work.

Starting point is 01:53:00 And then my sister, who, you know, I think she qualified as a lawyer, and she's worked in hospitality and stuff. All of us extremely different. My parents were a constant environment. was a constant. I say all this to say that maybe just like running experiments

Starting point is 01:53:15 as we do in business, maybe like the job, and Jeff Bezos talks a lot about this, is to like stay out of the business of the output and focus purely in the input. Because some of the questions you were saying there are like, what do I want them to accomplish? Are they happy?

Starting point is 01:53:26 These are all outputs. No, for sure. The other thing that I noticed when I interview executives, I always ask them, tell me about your kids and they tell me about the kids. And I go, are any of them the same? I always ask the same question.

Starting point is 01:53:35 And they go, no. We've got this one, who won't stop bouncing off the walls. This one, that's an empath and is like super shy. did you do anything different? No. So, like, you know, I think you're almost probably be guaranteed to miss expectations and be let down if you get involved in the output.

Starting point is 01:53:51 Yeah. So obviously there's nature and nurture. There's kids who are going to have genetic predispositions for different things. So let's say that's half. And then the other half is the nurture or environment. Now, that is still something that I'm not going to be able to control 100% anyways because you guys did have different environments. You grew up in different grades, talking different people, having different teachers, went

Starting point is 01:54:08 to different universities. I had three older siblings? Yeah, there's, yeah. All of those are variables. And so in some way, it's a bit of chaos of you can't. You can't control. But if we eliminate all control, then what's the point? And so I still come back to the like, well, I'm going to try to control the controllables.

Starting point is 01:54:25 Yeah, inputs. And right. But if I have, if I'm, so it's like, I need to know where I'm going, the output, in order to direct my car. But what I'm focusing on a day to day is I need to shift gears. I need to drive the car. need to fill it up with gas, me focusing out, but it's not going to get us there any faster. But I have to know where I'm going. And so this is, again, what I've struggled with.

Starting point is 01:54:47 Now, to be fair, I can not figure it out, and the kids can come either way. He's not going to wait for me to figure it out. And I'm sure maybe someday he'll look at this podcast and be like, my God, Dad, Jesus. You know what's interesting. The car analogy, I think might not be apt because I was trying to find another analogy. And the one that I stumbled upon was a plant, growing a plant in your house. You put the seed in the soil. and you might think,

Starting point is 01:55:10 I really want this to be six foot, and I really want 100 leaves, but you, all you can do is water it and get it sunlight, and it's going to be what it's going to be. Yeah. You can say, please be six foot,

Starting point is 01:55:22 please be a football player or whatever, but you can control the input, which is the water and the sunlight. It's funny because, like, my immediate situation goes back to the grandpa story, which is like, well, I could put it in front of the sun

Starting point is 01:55:34 or I could put it in a shady room. I could, like, I could determine how much I'm going to water, what kind of soil is. it's going to get. Fine. There are other variables that, like, and so, again, I would be like, do I want to grow the tallest plant?

Starting point is 01:55:44 Do I want to grow the plant that has the most fruit? Well, I would either prune the plant so that it would grow taller. Like, these are all things. Now, can I change whether it's going to be a peach tree or an apple tree? No, that's going to be based on the seed that I plant. And that I don't have any control over. But there are some things that I can control. And of those things that I control, I would like to know what I'm optimizing towards.

Starting point is 01:56:04 And I'm sure that this will just be a wonderful lesson in humility for myself. And it'll be great, and people laugh in the comments, be sure. But yeah, I think, to ask me, like, we were talking about Layla earlier. I would say, like, one of the foremost things that I love the most about Layla is that Layla has never tried to change me. She's like, that's Alex. Like, you can want him to be a peach tree or an aptly, but, like, he's going to be Alex. He's going to dress that way.

Starting point is 01:56:30 He's going to, and if tomorrow he feels like shaving his face and having a fu-manchu, he's going to do that. Like, I'm going to try and optimize to the degree that I can to equip. the, you know, my son and hopefully future kids, um, with as many skills as possible to get what they want out of life. And I think that's, that's what I would say that I, that's where, where I have settled on is I'm going to use all the resources I have to give them as many skills as I can to handle life. And if I can do that, then if they want to go to London or they want to go to L.A.,

Starting point is 01:57:02 at least they'll have the skills to get there. Um, that's as far as I've gotten. I can't wait to see. I saw this quote that you tweeted. Oh. And there's two quotes you tweeted that I was very curious about. The first one, which caught me off guard, I think I actually texted you when I saw this, was this one. Do you want to read this one out? Yeah.

Starting point is 01:57:19 So this was February 2025. At your funeral, friends and family will argue over who gets your belongings. People will talk about the food and the venue. Your life will be summarized in two to three paragraphs. Conversations will shift from your life to their lives. Your friends will drive away thinking about what's next on their to-do list. Some people won't be able to make it because something can. came up. And most of the people you know today won't even be there. You're going to die. People move on

Starting point is 01:57:42 in weeks, not yours. Do what you want. Why is that so important to hear? I think about death probably multiple times a day. And I think that that's actually been positively correlated with subject of all being. I mean, older people are incredibly aware of the fact that they're going to die. And I think that's what allows them. Like, I look at, so there's a, I'm sure you've seen this There's this graph that shows how people rate their subjective well-being over the lives. And it's a smile graph, which I think is ultimately hilarious. But kids are really happy. And then they get more and more responsibility.

Starting point is 01:58:20 And then your peak unhappiness is like 45 to like 55, somewhere in there. It's like it's the crunch. You're taking care of kids. You're taking care of parents. You have a career. And to be fair, in some ways, it's good because you're at your peak earning. So you're making your – most people are making their most money in this window. But they also need to do it.

Starting point is 01:58:38 it, but they're very stressed, right? They're stress really thin. And then as they kind of get into 60, 65, 70, and when I think about each of these two extremes on the child side and the elderly side, and elders are often a lot like kids, if we think about what, like, they rely on other people. They're mostly just like, they play games. In each of these situations, they have very little responsibility, and they don't care about what other people think. If you have, if you a toddler go out with like a tutu and cowboy boots, it's because they don't care what other people think. And when you're at the end of your life, you're like, I'm going to die, dude. And one of the things that I've been very obsessed with is borderline, but probably accurate,

Starting point is 01:59:16 is I'm trying to think, how am I going to see the world when I'm 80? And how fast can I get to there now? Because I care more now about what other people think than I will when I'm 80. And I just want to pull as much of that forward as I can because when I see those 80-year-olds, I'm like, that guy does not give a fuck. And I'm like, I really want that. And so I write a lot about death because it's, Like, these tweets are notes to self.

Starting point is 01:59:41 They're, like, they're not, it is not a, it is not from a pulpit that I say those. These are, um, as a self-help to Alex when I write these things, because it's like, I probably, when I was writing that in February, oh, yeah, February 25. So February 25, the first quarter of 25 was the hardest quarter that I've had personally in eight years. You tweeted this at the same time. Yeah. I haven't felt this miserable in years.

Starting point is 02:00:06 Shit's just hard sometimes. You have tough season. reasons, bad losses, and what makes it harder is you don't know when it'll end, but no, it will end. So for anyone going through it right now, you do the only thing you can do. Keep fighting. I text you when you tweeted that because I'd never heard you talk like that publicly before. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, it was a really tough quarter for me. I mean, mind you, I don't have kids, so that variable wasn't there. But every other variable that probably could have gone, quote, wrong was, actually, ironically, outside of business, business was fine. But it was just

Starting point is 02:00:40 everything else. What do you mean by that? So I would say we were making plenty of money. Yeah. But I had, I think I had nine lawsuits that were open at that. Really? There's a lot. There's nine open lawsuits.

Starting point is 02:00:54 And they all, like, it was like, and they were all different. Like, ex-employee investment that two or two or three were investments that we had made that like one of them got caught and stuff. And then it was like, are we going to get pulled? It was just all this, just stuff. Just a lot. And then Layla had, like, I think I told you, she had a really horrible, she, like, tore her colon. And so that's been, it's like, it's like an 18-month recovery. And so she was in the thick of, like, going through the pain of that before, about to get the surgery.

Starting point is 02:01:24 And so it was just like, everything sucked. And Bill Ackman had this really great interview where there's a snippet that I ended up saying, which was he was, he had just lost like a billion dollars. He was getting divorced. And there was, like, one other thing. I think there was lawsuits because of the billion dollars, whatever. And he said, when you're going through that, those rough patches, he said he focused on the only thing he could do. When it's like, you're not going to solve this in a day. Like, you can't finish it.

Starting point is 02:01:51 And I think that's what's so painful about it is you have this open loop that whenever it, whenever something reminds you of it, it's like you get into this loop again of like rumination and just like, oh, what if it goes wrong and catastrophizing? And he's like, you just have to take one bite at a time. And then every month or two months, you can look back and be like, I made some progress. And he's like, he just focused on making progress and chipping away at the problem. And I think that was more or less the approach I had, which is kind of like the two feet in front of you, like, what are the things that I can actually do right now? I will do those.

Starting point is 02:02:23 And sometimes, and I remember in that season, a lot of what I was thinking about was, so I wrote, so when my mother passed this year, I wrote an article for myself. Yeah. I wrote an article for myself about mental toughness. And it was because I wanted to, of course, it's not like be mentally tough when your mother does. That's not the point. It was like, how am I supposed to show up right now?

Starting point is 02:02:42 That was kind of like the thought process I had. And so I basically, here, I thought like this, which is, bad thing happens, right? There's these vectors of what happens as a result. So you have how long or how many bad things have to happen before you change your behavior. So let's imagine this line is how. we're acting, how many bad things have to happen in order for us to change how we act. Are we shorter with our spouse? Do we not pay attention at work?

Starting point is 02:03:17 How many bad things? If somebody, the perfectly mentally tough person would be able to have an unlimited amount of things happen to them, and then their behavior would remain the same. Purely from that perspective. The next issue is, okay, let's say that you're not a perfectly mentally tough person, and something crosses your tolerance threshold, and then your behavior changes. And so we have this next measurement. So we have how long and how much can you handle?

Starting point is 02:03:43 We have how deep do you go when you fall? How badly do you change your behavior? Do you just, are you short with your staff or do you get into heroin? No, like how badly do you fall? And then the next piece is, how long does it take to you to recover, return back to original function? And then the part that I added to this is, and then when I return back to original function, am I better than I was before? Do I, am I the same as I was before?

Starting point is 02:04:09 Or am I permanently worse? In what dimension? Resilience or happiness? So I basically have term one, term two, term three. And then this is I term this is adaptability, which is how do you respond after a bad thing happens? Do you get better, the same or worse? You have tolerance.

Starting point is 02:04:32 Sorry, I think it was fortitude. which is how much bad stuff can you handle before it hits you. You have resilience here which is how long does it take you to return to baseline and then you have tolerance

Starting point is 02:04:45 which is how low do you go? And so through mapping these four vectors of behavior I was able to look at myself during this harder season and this was such a mind fuck because think about this, I do $106 million launch.

Starting point is 02:05:01 My mom got to see it, which is really cool. She dies four weeks later. I realized the goal, we talk about long term, right? $100 million, $100 million, $100 million, $100 million. The goal of the books was to have $100 million out at the end. The offer's book was an offer so good. People sell stupid things. I gave it away for free, made a 99 cents, gave a course with it.

Starting point is 02:05:17 No one had done that. And there was an offer so good. Leads, I did a huge, gigantic launch, but I didn't monetize because I just wanted to show what having crazy advertising for something would do. And I used all the stuff in the book to advertise the book. This book's about monetization. And so I had an amazing offer. and crazy advertising and a money model behind it,

Starting point is 02:05:35 which is why I made it $100 million on the weekend. So this is a multi-year project. And so I get to have this moment of like all these things come to fruition. And then my mother dies three weeks. It was the 19th, right? So it was, yeah, literally a month later. And so a freak accident. Yeah.

Starting point is 02:05:51 And so I'm just like, how am I supposed to like, what am I, how do I think through this? And so I wrote this for myself to think, okay, how am I supposed to show up? And also one of the things that I found really interesting was that people will judge how much you love someone by how much you choose to suffer. And why does how much I suffer have anything to do with how much I love someone? And I don't think that the person, if you did lose somebody, I'm sorry. I don't think the person that you lost probably wants you to suffer. And so we have this idea that we need to suffer to prove our love, which I was like, well, that's an assumption I'm coming in with. Do I reject that?

Starting point is 02:06:28 I was like, yeah, I think I reject that. And so, bad thing happens. That crossed my threshold. How low am I going to go? I was probably not like the most thrilled about life during that period. But I thought, well, what can I do? What are my controllables? Well, I'm still going to work more content.

Starting point is 02:06:43 I'm still going to help businesses because I feel good when I help businesses. Why would I stop doing that? Well, I'm still going to work out because I feel good when I work out. Why would I stop doing that? Did you have motivation, though? Were you motivated in this sort of cliche sense of the word? Did you feel like it? I would say yes.

Starting point is 02:06:57 but not for the reason that people think. I was motivated for two reasons. One, because I don't think she would want me to stop. And number two, because those things made me feel better and I felt bad. And so I wanted to feel better. I tried to change as little about my life as possible. And that is what got me through that.

Starting point is 02:07:17 And now some people will say, oh, you need to take time to mourn and say, why does the way I mourn have to look the way you mourn? And why do you, is there a right or wrong way to mourn? She must have been so proud of you. she was she was we talk a lot about your dad but we've never really spoken much about your mom no i don't she's a sweet lady yeah she always she always believed and so i think this last one right adaptability which is in what world can this make me better like how can how can this loss make me better

Starting point is 02:08:06 and also by the way like this trauma bad thing happens you're permanently worse, right? And so I was like, what would that look like? What would me growing from this look like? And I think part of that was proving that I can continue as my way of honoring her and her memory. And I'm going to continue to try and pursue the path that she knew I started pursuing when I left home. And I talked to her when I left, you know. And so, like, what's changed between then and now? I'm just closer to where I was trying to go. And I don't think she'd want me to abandon that path.

Starting point is 02:08:58 And so I just keep fighting. You had that conversation with Tony Robbins, which I found to be amazing. It's a fantastic conversation. I spoke to him about it, actually. I wondered if it had changed you in any way. You talked to him about happiness. You'd said that, you know, you'd said some similar things to me that happiness had never been a high priority for you.

Starting point is 02:09:15 Yeah. Did that conversation change your perspective at all on happiness? I would love to say that it did, because I think it would be like a better sound bite. Not really. So where are you now on the subject of happiness? Are you happy? I have a tough time with that, most because I just, I don't really even know what it means. Because there's some people that is like, do I feel joy, of course, but you can feel joy at a funeral.

Starting point is 02:09:48 Are you excited by your life? Are you excited about life on a daily basis? Yes. I'm intensely interested in my life. I'm very fascinated by the things that I work on. Does it feel good to be you? Sometimes. I think...

Starting point is 02:10:02 More days than not. Probably. One of the things that Arthur Brooks has been really helpful, you know his stuff, and he talks specifically to strivers, and I'm like, stop talking to me. So strivers, he defines as people who are strivers. They're high achievers.

Starting point is 02:10:17 And what's really interesting is he describes what the childhood of a striver is. he's like, almost to a T, this is what it is. He's like, it's typically an immigrant parent or something like that where they're trying to do a good job, and they basically withhold approval only when the kid does a good thing. And then what happens is the kid learns that love is earned. And then you learn that loop, you're reinforced for that loop, and then you do win more and you earn more love. And then you get into the big, biode world, and then you're like, how do I get more of this drug, this love drug,

Starting point is 02:10:45 which means I need to earn as much as possible. I need to earn as much as possible. So you just get addicted to the loop of working. And so I find this really fascinating. But the other part of his work that has been actually in some ways very grounding for me is about half of your subject to well-being is genetic. Hmm. Half. And to be clear, like, I'm super blessed.

Starting point is 02:11:07 I have a lot of good things that have gone from me. My mother's side of the family tree has a lot of tough mental stuff, very bad stuff. But they're also really brilliant. In some ways, I think to myself, like, maybe I'm not. just maxed out on my 50, and I'm crushing it. But the thing is, like, I don't know. Because like, we don't, you know, if you're, if you're born seven feet tall, everyone can see it. But some people are born probably one foot tall in terms of happiness. And they learn to play basketball really, really well at one foot. And people are still like, oh, he's only one foot

Starting point is 02:11:36 tall. So I don't, I don't know how to judge how well I'm doing. I would say that I have been way worse than I am now. I aggressively want to keep living. And to me, that's a, that's a really strong indicator for me. And to answer, like, Albert Camus is one of my favorite philosophers, and he has this quote that I love, which is, what is the meaning of your life? And his answer to that is the reason you don't kill yourself. And it sounds dark, but a lot of very dark things can be flipped into very light things, which is that when you ask someone that question, they'll typically answer like, well, I mean, my kids, my wife, the people that rely on me. And it's like, great, that's

Starting point is 02:12:14 why you're alive. And that thing can also change. Because like, if you asked me 10 years ago, I'd have a different answer than I do this, this time. And maybe in 20 years it'll be different. One of the remarkable things I learned from doing this podcast is a real appreciation for people's predisposition as it relates to mental health and the way that their mind is with them. Growing up, I thought everyone's mind was like mine as you do. And then, you know, you stumble across this thing called podcasting, you start interviewing people and going, what's going on in your brain? And they play it to you. And you go, they can't possibly be telling you. me the truth. It can't possibly be the case that there's other people and I remember sitting here

Starting point is 02:12:49 with a comedian who told me that inside his brain there's a voice that literally roots for his failure that literally tells him he's pathetic, he's going to fail, he's terrible, this was terrible, you've embarrassed yourself. And I thought, gosh, isn't that crazy that there is like a mental health mindset privilege, which most of us don't even acknowledge the privilege of? And when you speak, it's fascinating to me. In the same way that I might assume that, It's fascinating when you hear someone answer the question, are you happy? And they just go, yes, of course.

Starting point is 02:13:19 Yeah, right. Like, is that really curious to you when you hear people say, yes, I'm amazingly happy? Yeah. Is that curious to you? Sort of, I think, when I hear someone say that, like, probably my immediate gut response

Starting point is 02:13:31 before I even, like, think about my response, is, well, they probably haven't even defined what happiness is, and they just wanted to give an easy answer. Interesting. Like, that's what I immediately think. But, like, I, it's like, this is like the absolute, as raw.

Starting point is 02:13:47 truth is I could possibly give to anyone, which is that, like, I, I am very proud of the things that I've done up to this point in my life. Like, I can look back and be like, I'm proud that I did that, and I, and I feel that sense of accomplishment. And I, and I, what is the emotion attached to proud? I don't know. Is pride itself an emotion? I don't know. How does one experience pride as an emotion? Is that like a, it would feel very full? I'm, like, very happy that I did these things. Like, the books that you have in front of you, I'm incredibly proud of. If it was a facial expression, how would pride look? Yeah. No, not for me. I mean, I'm just, it's very soulful for me. Like, I'm very filled by this work. And that's why I keep doing it. And I know that when I die, I think the thing that will actually, the only thing that I think has a chance of living on past me, past when people even know who I am is these books. My YouTube videos are going to disappear. Like, all that stuff will go away. But I think, I think these books will survive. And I write them that way. Like, I write them kind of thinking that, like, the people who read this will not know who I am.

Starting point is 02:14:46 Should people come to you for happiness advice? No. Go find somebody's really happy. Here's what's really tough, though, right? Is that no one knows what someone's base level is. And that's so tough. I think I ask that because one, I think a lot of people assume that this work, learning how to be financially free and to build a business, is in service of this North Star, which we all agree upon, which is happiness.

Starting point is 02:15:11 So one would think, okay, what's the point building a business in getting a hundred million dollar deal or whatever? if it doesn't then lead to the happiness payoff. And if you're telling me that you're not the person to come to for happiness advice, I go, well, then what's this, then? Why do I need to do this? If this is not going to make me... Do you see what I'm saying?

Starting point is 02:15:29 Oh, I totally feel what you're saying, which is why bother pursuing this to begin with? Yeah, if it's... If you're not promising me happiness as the North Star. Yeah, I won't do that. Many people will sell you happiness. I will not be one of them. I try to sell quantitative things.

Starting point is 02:15:42 Like, I know that if more people find out about your stuff, you will make more. if you have a better way of monetizing and a faster way to bring cash forward, your business will grow more. If you have an offer that's so good people stupid saying no, they won't say no and they'll say yes. But you make no promise or guarantees

Starting point is 02:15:55 where that would lead you in your life. No, that's, to me, like that's beyond my scope. Fine. Like I know, yeah. And so I enjoy the topic of the happiness stuff because I love amorphous topics. But the conclusion that I said I started with when you asked about the Tony thing

Starting point is 02:16:14 was, it is my worldview, which could be wrong, that human beings, our internal feelings are like the weather. There's sunny days and there's rainy days and there's rainy seasons and there's sunny seasons. And we go through them all. And even if things get better, our baseline adjusts so that yet again, because if we think about a year, I actually give this example of my sales team. So we think about this as a year and we have all the days of the year.

Starting point is 02:16:44 half the days are going to be above average, and half the days are going to be below average. And every month, you're going to have a bottom 10% day three times. Because you have 36 days per year that are going to be bottom 10% days for no reason, purely because law of large numbers. And you're also going to have three days per month, which is almost one a week. That's going to be a top 10% day of the whole year. Pretty impressive. But it's one a week, almost. Right?

Starting point is 02:17:12 And so I think about this variability a lot. because when I'm having a, quote, bad day, because I have them. I have them all the time. And I just think, this is probably just the bottom 10% day. And like, and I think the, one of the, one of the lessons that I've learned from an entrepreneurship perspective that's translated into life is my emotional discomfort is not an adequate reason to change what I'm doing. And so we will get these moments of dissatisfaction or discomfort and be like, I'm, life sucks. I need to change something. And if you don't like your life in general, change something. But if you don't like your life today, maybe don't break up with your wife. Maybe you give it a day, right? And so I think, again, I come from the entrepreneur perspective, which is that people will have a bad day and then basically take it out on their business and then change a bunch of things and then destroy what they're with this fledgling business that's getting going because they had an emotional need that they could not tolerate.

Starting point is 02:18:06 And so that's why this graph has been so valuable to me, which is, is my bottom 10% day a big enough thing for me to change my behavior. If I determine that I can have a bad day and still do good work, that is a good day. Alex, we have a closing tradition where the last guest leaves a question for the next guest not knowing who they're leaving it for. Funny question. What would you do if you believed that super intelligent AI, better, faster, cheaper, et cetera, than the best humans at everything was just a few years away? What would you do? On the business side, I would build as much real-world proof as I possibly could and as much track record with as many customers as I could so that I could reinforce a brand that would give me some differentiation in that future marketplace.

Starting point is 02:19:03 So you'd focus on building a stronger brand from a business perspective? Why? Because I think in a world where everyone has access to a superintelligence, what are the things that are going to, like, will people still care about reputations in the future? Probably. And so I see that as something that won't change. Distribution will still cost money. like those things, I think those things will be true.

Starting point is 02:19:25 It might be less, but it'll still cost. And typically, again, because there's still marketplace dynamics. Not to get into the weeds on this, but from an entrepreneurship perspective, I would continue to build trust and distribution. From a personal perspective, I would think really hard about what it means to be human and why I'm here to begin with. You're going to buy a phone one day? It's not out of the equation. I mean, Layla's super going to go on that. On a ranch.

Starting point is 02:19:57 Yeah. We almost bought one actually the first time we sold. Where do I direct? So if people want to learn more from you, you've got your YouTube channel where you've just started this brand new series, which is really interesting. I'll link that below as well for people that want to watch it. It's kind of like a Dragon's Den Shark Tanky format where you're bringing entrepreneurs. They're competing for $100,000 through this knockout series of episodes.

Starting point is 02:20:19 Very interesting. These four books in front of me. There's another one over there, but these four here from the $100 million series have all sold more than five million copies since inception. You've actually broke the world record for selling so many copies of this book, this one. Yeah. In the short sort of a 24-hour period or something crazy like that. 2.9 and 24. Staggering.

Starting point is 02:20:42 I'll link all of these books below. They are essential reading for anybody that wants a cheat code. Probably a decade worth of a decade head start into the world of business. explained in a phenomenally accessible way with literally your drawings inside them. And the thing that I think has made these books so successful and become the Bible for many entrepreneurs, startup entrepreneurs,

Starting point is 02:21:02 but also entrepreneurs that are looking to scale through different seasons of business, is just, it's so actionable. A lot of books are highly philosophical and there's lots of jargon and stuff. These are like, this is what to do. This is what to do. And I think ultimately that's the most valuable thing.

Starting point is 02:21:20 So thank you for writing these. incredible books. Is there anything else that people should know about that you're working on or thinking about before we tune up, tune out? No? Just grab the books. Great. I'll link all of them below. Alex, thank you as always. I love talking to you, not just because it makes great content, because I second learn so much. And I've written so many notes down here from just bouncing off you that I'm going to go applying my own business. So thank you as always. I really appreciate it. Thank you very. Thank you.

The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett - The Man Who Made $100M Before 32: The Secret Was To Stop Letting Them Control Me | Alex Hormozi

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