The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett - The Manipulation Expert: "You're Being Manipulated!", "Use Jealousy To Manipulate People!" & "How To Know If Someone Hates You!"

Episode Date: March 18, 2024

Understanding the laws human nature is one of the most crucial skills in life, so why do so few of us take the time to learn them? Robert Greene is a New York Times bestselling author, whose books include, ‘The 48 Laws of Power’, ’The Art of Seduction’, and ’The 33 Strategies of War’. In this conversation Robert and Steven discuss topics such as, how to avoid a midlife crisis, ways to eliminate self-doubt, how to use body language to get what you want, and the dark truth about human psychology. (2:00) Why did you write a book about human nature? (3:59) How do we reverse a lack of self-awareness? (6:26) How to get rid of qualities we don’t like about ourselves (11:20) Where does our dark side come from? (14:54) How to pursue that thing you’ve always wanted to do (27:19) The unseen importance of creating a sense of urgency (29:12) How to know if you’re following a false purpose (35:42) Should a young person just be saying yes to everything? (39:39) How to manage other people that get in the way of what we want to do (42:31) Do we have to lie to be successful? (51:16) How to read someone's body language (53:57) A smile says loads about how someone feels about you (56:16) People's personalities are contagious (56:43) Frenemies, what they mean and how to spot one (1:06:07) What's the most controversial point from your book? (1:08:50) Does equality exist when we all strive for power? (1:11:54) Becoming the best, what it really means (1:17:36) Is death a motivator for you? (1:24:14) The importance of relationships (1:26:26) How to deal with dark thoughts (1:28:34) Advice for people going through self-doubt & hard moments (1:32:42) Why did you write this book, The Sublime? (1:37:08) What would be your parting message to the world? (1:42:59) How can we rise above our emotional reactions? (1:44:40) How has your research influenced how you view politics? (1:52:03) The last guest's question You can purchase the special 25th anniversary edition Robert’s book, ‘The 48 Laws of Power’, here: https://amzn.to/3TA1NOm Follow Robert: Twitter - https://bit.ly/48V4gaG Instagram - https://bit.ly/3Vj8TYE YouTube - https://bit.ly/43lMjRf Watch the episodes on Youtube - https://g2ul0.app.link/3kxINCANKsb My new book! 'The 33 Laws Of Business & Life' is out now - https://smarturl.it/DOACbook Follow me: https://beacons.ai/diaryofaceo Sponsors: WHOOP: https://join.whoop.com/en-uk/CEO Uber: https://p.uber.com/creditsterms Shop the Conversation Cards: https://thediary.com/products/the-cards 

Quick one. Just wanted to say a big thank you to three people very quickly. First people I want to say thank you to is all of you that listen to the show. Never in my wildest dreams is all I can say. Never in my wildest dreams did I think I'd start a podcast in my kitchen and that it would expand all over the world as it has done. And we've now opened our first studio in America, thanks to my very helpful team led by Jack on the production side of things. So thank you to Jack and the team for building out the new American studio. And thirdly to to Amazon Music, who when they heard that we were expanding to the United States, and I'd be recording a lot more over in the States, they put a massive billboard in Times Square for the show. So thank you so much, Amazon Music. Thank you to our team. And

thank you to all of you that listened to this show. Let's continue. You need this skill. If there's somebody in your life, and you don't know whether they're a snake or whether they're genuinely your friend, approach them from an angle and surprise them. And for a second, you detect what we call... You should become aware of that. Robert Greene is one of the best-selling authors in history. An internationally renowned expert on power strategies. He's been referenced in songs by Jay-Z, Kanye West.

The godfather of power, seduction, and mastery. We have this idea that if I apply myself really hard, I should be successful. But I kept noticing this blind spot that people had. They were terrible in dealing with people. And if you're not careful and constantly misreading people, they could manipulate you. They could wound you. But if you follow the process that I lay out, it will be the best defense you could ever have in your life. You know all the tricks people are playing on you. We have to learn to look behind people's masks. Being a human being means we lie.

But you know what doesn't lie? Body language. Eyes are hard to lie. The smile tells you a hundred different things if you know how to read it. But the problem that you have is you think it's a natural skill. I'm a human being. I know how to read people. You don't. You're operating in darkness. But I do believe everybody has that potential. So the first thing you do is frenemies. Do we all have frenemies? Yes. They sabotage you, hurt you, and you don't want them in your life.

And one common sign of a frenemy is... Quick one, quick favor to ask from you. There is one simple way that you can support our show, and that is by hitting that follow button on this app that you're listening to the show on right now. This year, in 2024, we're trying really, really hard to level up everything we're doing. And the only free thing I'll ever ask from you is to hit that follow button on this app. It helps

this show more than I could probably articulate. And it allows us, enables us to keep doing what we're doing here. I appreciate it dearly. On to the show. Robert, you wrote a book about human nature in 2018 called The Laws of Human Nature. Why did you write that book? Well, it's the fruit of a lot of experiences that I've had. So I wrote The 48 Laws of Power, and prior to that book, I was somebody who never had any power in life. I was sort of a failure. You know, I had gone through so many different jobs. And then all of a sudden, I write this one book, and people are coming to where we have so much power at our fingertips, right? And it's so easy to get attention and on and on and on. And we have this idea that everything in life should be easy.

It's all about just, well, if I apply myself really hard, I should be successful. But I kept noticing this blind spot that people had. They were terrible in dealing with people. They were making all of these mistakes. Everybody wears a mask. You wear a mask. I wear a mask when we're out in the public realm. We don't exactly say what we think, right? We're all a bit strategic. And if you're not careful, you're constantly saying the wrong things. You're constantly misreading people. You're doing things at your job that you think are going to impress, but they have the opposite effect. And then something bad happens and you're confused

and you're emotional. It was like this circle atmosphere of pain around the globe of people suffering because they don't know how to handle the people in their lives. And because we're so virtual and we're so locked in our phones, that we're becoming worse and worse at reading other people, at understanding them. You know, when I'm sitting across from you, I can see your body language. I can see your non-verbals. I can see all sorts of things. I can deal with you as a human. But when I spend 95% of my time behind a screen, you know, and that's even how I date. Basic human skills of understanding, of connecting, of empathy, of reading, they're getting hopelessly degraded. That's my long-winded

answer for why I wrote that book. If there's someone listening out there and they can relate to certain parts of what you've just said, maybe it's a lack of their own self-awareness or maybe they have poor sort of awareness of others. Is there a starting place to reversing that? Is there maybe a most important skill that we need to master as at the foundation of that transformation? Yeah, it's very simple. It's to get down on your hands and knees and realize you're bad at dealing with people. The problem that you have is you think that it's a natural skill. Yeah, I'm okay at it. I just kind of wing it. I understand what I'm doing.

I'm a human being. I know how to read people, et cetera. You don't. You're operating in darkness. You're groping around. Just realize, first of all, that you need this skill. And once you realize that, the first thing you do is you look inward. You look at your own nature. You look at the things that I write about in the book about narcissism, about irrationality. And instead of searching for people around you that fit those categories, look at yourself. So it all begins with self-awareness. You are the best subject of human nature. So when I was writing this book, it was actually quite painful. So I'm writing a chapter on narcissism, one of the longest chapters in the book, because it's a very important subject. And I'm telling myself, Robert, you're quite a narcissist. You didn't think of yourself

that way, but you have all of these classic tendencies that you're writing about in the book. It was painful. But in order to come to understand narcissism in other people, I had to sort of understand it in myself. So step number one is I need this knowledge. I'm actually not very good with dealing with people. It's caused me problems. Go back and review the problems and mistakes you've made. Mistakes I've made as well, many, many times. And then

when you realize that you want this knowledge, then you begin by looking inward. But if you think that it's not needed, that you're not, it's just, oh, it's kind of interesting, or maybe I'll sort of dabble in it, it won't mean anything to you. You have to feel that pain that you've been through in life. And it's kind of an ongoing pain. It's one that I still have, even though I wrote the book, where I misread people, where I inadvertently hurt them when I didn't mean to hurt them, you know. And I feel that, and I suffer from it. And so the pain that you feel, the emotions that this turns up, motivate you then to become better at understanding other people. What if you find things in yourself, like you said, that you don't like?

You find narcissism in yourself. You find darkness in yourself. What are we meant to do with that? Are we meant to heal it? Resolve it? You're meant to look at it. You're meant to confront it. I mean, I have in the book a quote from the great writer Anton Chekhov that people can't begin to change themselves until they

know who they are, until they understand themselves, right? So we all want to change. We all want to be better at ourselves. But until we know who we are, until we realize our flaws and our weaknesses. So the main law of human nature, if I could summarize it, is we don't like to look at ourselves. It's always the other person. They're the ones with the problem. They're the ones who are aggressive or passive aggressive. They're the ones who feel envy. They're the ones who are rational.

But me, no, no, I'm a paragon of virtue. I'm always moral. I'm always good. I'm always good. I'm always smart, et cetera. So the point isn't to beat yourself up and go, damn it, I'm an awful human being. We're all humans come from the same source. We all have the same ancestors. We all have the same flaws in our brain.

It's not like you're exceptional. It's not like you're the one person that doesn't have a narcissism, that doesn't have self-absorption. So realizing that you're connected to all these people, that we all have these flaws and weaknesses, is actually not a bad thing. It's a good thing. And then by examining yourself deeply, you can begin to change some of these things. I don't go like, oh, damn it, I'm a narcissist. I'm self-absorbed. I think a lot about myself. I love talking about myself, which is something I'm afraid I do like to do. The point isn't, well, oh, well, I'm just depressed. There's

nothing I can do. Once I'm aware of it, I can begin to change it. But if I'm always repressing it, if I'm always thinking, no, I'm good, I don't have those problems, then if you can't see them, how can you change them? How can you deal with them? How can you become a better person? How can you change those qualities that you don't want? One of the most important things in the laws of human nature is that you have patterns, that you are compulsive. It comes from your character, these patterns that you see patterns, that you are compulsive. It comes from your character. These patterns that you see in your intimate relationships.

You always fall for the wrong person or you sometimes fall for the wrong person. You see it in your work world. I make these mistakes. I get fired for this reason, et cetera, et cetera. And they're good patterns. But we tend to repeat over and over and over again these compulsive behavior.

Being aware of these patterns, being aware of these things, you can now begin to have the power to change them. A lot of people climb the mountain of awareness. I was thinking about people in my life that have climbed the mountain of awareness and in my own life. Things that I'm aware of, darkness within me that I'm aware of or challenges or patterns I'm aware of, taking the next step from, so I think becoming aware is painful and then doing something about it is difficult. It's painful because there's a lot of cognitive dissonance associated with figuring out that you're not who you

want to be, you know, And then doing something about it requires breaking what feels like old neurological pathways in my brain, you know, trigger. You think about the habit cycle. Breaking that is difficult. I look at it very differently, I'm afraid. So I think actually it's worse when you're not aware of who you are. When you walk around in this world with all of these false ideas about who you are, you don't even know who you are.

You're wearing this mask. You're not authentic. You're behaving in the world as if you're somebody else. And you're not aware of that, but it's causing you pain. It's making you suffer because you're not aware of the real person that you are. You're not authentic. And coming to terms with some of these dark qualities is actually a very enlightening experience. It actually can be euphoric. You go, I am an animal.

I'm not this saint. I'm not this paragon that I thought I was. I'm an animal with flaws. I can embrace that. We're all like that. And it's a good thing. And feeling like you have this and you're coming to terms with it. I have a chapter on the dark side of human nature. Everybody has a shadow side. I have it, you have it, right? And seeing that shadow side, which is something you've been repressing since childhood, and dealing with it and confronting with it,

is actually one of the most wonderful experiences you can have in life. Because repressing all of these things is what is making you miserable in life. But coming to terms with who you are and being aware of it is actually liberating, you know? Where does it come from, our dark side, what you talk about in chapter nine of the book? Well, I think it comes from childhood. So when you're a child, when you're three or four years old, you're like this complete person.

I compare it to like this round ball. You have good qualities. You have loving qualities. You love your parents, perhaps. You love your parents, perhaps. You love your siblings, perhaps. But you also have these other darker qualities, these kind of aggressive impulses. Sometimes you hit people. Sometimes you say nasty things, right? But you're a complete person. It's natural. It's who you are. It's how you were born. It's like a round ball and it's complete. And then slowly, year by year, month by month, you have to cut off that dark side, that backside of yours. In school, you're told, don't ever show that part of you. Your parents are, come on,

you got to be nice. You got to get along. We want to be proud of you. All of those aggressive impulses that you have, all of those feelings where you felt envy about somebody, whatever, you wish you had what your brother or sister had. So they all go underground, right? You force them down. You don't want to deal with them, but they're still there because you're a human being. Those emotions don't leave you. They just get pushed down and they go into the backside of your head. That round ball now becomes cut off. It's like the moon with

a dark side and a front side. And when you're out in the public and you're in work or in social situation, you're only showing people that bright, happy side, the good side, and you're doing the damnedest to conceal all of that dark energy inside of you. And then suddenly, because you're doing the damnedest to conceal all of that dark energy inside of you. And then suddenly, because you're not aware of it, it comes out in explosions. Very typical thing is you suddenly get angry and you burst out with an angry email or you yell at somebody, you say something kind of nasty. And then you look back and you go, where did that come from? That's not really me. I'm not really like that.

I feel ashamed about that. But what you must realize is that's part of your shadow that's speaking. It's coming out. You're just not aware of it. You're trying to control it too much. And I say the best thing in life to do is not to take out this dark side and just throw it around the world and be nasty and aggressive. That won't work. But you have to find ways to take that energy because that dark side contains a lot

of energy, a lot of power, and use it and channel it into ways that are productive. So I happen to be someone who has a fair amount of aggression, I have to admit. I'm extremely competitive, right? Even in of aggression, I have to admit. I'm extremely competitive, right? Even in card games, I don't like losing. So I've channeled it into my books. I take all of that energy and I put it into making the best books that I can into ambition. So if you're ambitious, channeling that energy into becoming the best and beating the competition is a productive way of using that dark energy. If you feel angry about a cause or something that pisses you off about the world, some injustices, instead of whining about it, etc., you go out and you do something. You do something, you get involved in a movement or whatever.

You channel that energy into something productive that's the way to deal with the dark side and that's you can't go throughout life imagining that you're the same because you're not you have these qualities in your book about the strategies of war the second strategy of war that you write about is do not fight the last war. And when I read that, what I understood it to kind of mean was about not being rigid. You know, how does one dismantle their, the prison of convention that they live in? So for that lawyer or for that person that's working in the financial district who is, you know and they're a lawyer they're a stockbroker and they're miserable um they have somewhat been imprisoned by their own identity which is like a set of ideas from the past and i'm really obsessed with how we

get out of the way of our own identity so that we can live our most fulfilling lives because even me you know there's and probably even you, I've created this perception of who I am and I'm like following the instructions every day. Yeah, it's a trap. You can't fall into that. So one of the laws of power that I have, one that I think is very important, I think it's law 25 or 26, I don't remember the number,

is recreate yourself. So the moment people start, know who you are, they identify, they create your identity. Oh, Robert Greene is this person who writes these dark Machiavellian manipulative books. Then I'm trapped. I'm trapped by their perception of me. And I always have to be like a little dog performing for them, right? And I don't want to fall into that trap. You have to recreate yourself. You have to use your personality and who you are as clay that you are molding. You're like an artist. And so you change yourself for each person that's different. So for me, it means I don't write 48 Laws of Power Part Two. I write now a book that's not like the 48 Laws of Power at all. For you, it's doing your podcast, but changing it up. Or maybe you do a different podcast,

or maybe you go into a different career set, or maybe you become a CEO or an entrepreneur in a different direction. I was recently on Andrew Huberman's podcast, one of the most successful podcasts besides yours in the world. And he, I don't want to sound like bragging, but the book mastery helped him a lot because he was a professor, I believe at Stanford. I hope I have it right. Everything was going well. He was on a fast track in neuroscience, but he was miserable. He hated the politicking. He hated all the bullshit that you have to go through in academia. And then he read the book and he goes, I don't know how old he was. He must have been in his early thirties. He goes, I don't want to do this. I want to change. I want to recreate

myself. He decided to go into podcasting to take all of his knowledge about science and neuroscience and bring it into a different medium. And so that's extremely powerful because if he'd stayed in academia, he would have gone down the path that we're talking about. It sounds a little sexier than being in finance in your 47, but being stuck in academia when it doesn't fit you with all the nasty politics that go on in universities, your 47, but being stuck in academia when it doesn't fit you with all the nasty politics that go on in universities, etc. That is a path for misery if he doesn't fit. So you have to kind of go through this process all the time and not let other people tell you who you are. In the case of Andrew Huberman, who transitioned from an academic to a podcaster,

it's quite a feat because there's lots of forces that try and hold our existing identity in place. A lot of people. And to sort of cross the chasm, get past all of that force that says, no, we want you to stay with us, Andrew. We want you to be an academic. Who do you think you are, being a podcaster? You know, that force I'm so intrigued by because everyone, regardless of where they are now, if they're going to try and venture to somewhere else, a better place, they're going to encounter that. How does one work through that? What is that? How do we understand that force that's trying to keep us down? It usually happens when you're successful that people start giving you these identities

that kind of define who you are. And if you're okay with it, that's fine. But I'm a big believer in listening to your own pain and listening to your own frustration. So when you feel frustrated in life, you have to go through a process. You have to look at it and you have to go, what is the source of it? Normally, the first thing you'll do is you'll blame other people. You'll blame the world. You'll blame your spouse, your children, whatever, right? And you won't really look at what it is, why you're frustrated. And if you look at it deeply enough and you go, I'm really frustrated because I'm not enjoying my work. I'm making money. I'm going there every day and I'm going through the motions and I'm successful

and people admire me, but I'm not happy. I'm frustrated. I'm upset. You've got to lean into that pain. You've got to lean into what frustrates you and go, I can't go on another five years like this because the mind and the body are tied in. There's no difference. We're all one. We're all a unity. And so when you start having these frustrations, these desires that you're not acting upon, it creates physical problems. You're not aware of why suddenly your blood pressure is rising, why suddenly your back is having pain like I'm having right now.

It's all interconnected. And when you're not doing something that you're not engaged with, your whole being goes out of whack. Everything doesn't work. You've got to listen to it. You've got to understand it. And you've got to go, I want some joy and some excitement in my life. I want a challenge. It takes some fearlessness because leaving a prestigious job at Stanford, we've got money.

I don't know if he had tenure or not, or perhaps he did. You know, it takes some guts because you're leaving something that you know that's a convention, that's stable, et cetera, et cetera. But you've got to go, it's not worth the price. It's not who I am. I'm going to suffer for it down the road. And so, you know, let's say he decided to go into podcasting and it failed. All right, so be it. Then he learns that and he's somebody who's very smart. He would have figured out another way, another direction to go in. If my book, The 48 Laws of Power, hadn't been a success, I don't know what would have happened to me, but hopefully I would have figured out another way to go, you know, because I also had to drop a career direction that I was

going in. But you've got to try. You've got to be able to try and you've got to go say yourself, it's actually a great thing in your 30s, let's say, to go, I need something new. I need something completely different. I need a new challenge. I'm going to drop this. I'm going to start something. You won't believe the energy that will suddenly rise up in you, right? You'll suddenly feel invigorated. You'll suddenly feel youthful again. I'm not stuck in this thing. I can try something else. I'm so intrigued by two things within that. One of them was going back to the case of Andrew, who left Stanford and became a podcaster, was my brain, you said, he's an intelligent guy, he would have figured it out if he'd failed. My brain also was saying, he could have always gone back. And there's a real illusion sometimes, I think, in most of our lives where we don't realize that if we mess up in this thing, as I think Jeff Bezos calls it, this is probably a type two decision where we can walk back through the door.

But it's this sort of illusion that we're going to really lose something great if we fail, that stops us taking that first step. And the other thing I was curious about is this idea that pain is a catalyst for change. And do people need to get to that point in their lives where they go, I'm just so sick of this, to change? Can someone change before they get there? Unfortunately not. Sometimes the bottom has to drop out before you realize what you really want and what you really need to get in life. I wish it weren't that way.

But feeling like you're suffering and that you need a change and that if you go on this way, bad things are going to happen is the greatest motivator of all. Because if you're moderately discontented with your job, you're going to constantly be justifying it to yourself going, it's all right, it'll get better. There'll be a new boss or I can always move from this job to another company similar. You'll justify, you'll never get out of it and the trap will just close in on you and you'll never get out of it, right?

It's those moments where, damn it, I hate this. I can't go on. I'm heading to suicide. I'm heading to depression. I'm heading to drinking. I'm hitting bottom. I don't like where I'm going. It doesn't have to be quite so drastic. I know I'm exaggerating, but you have to feel a degree of pain and frustration to say, I need to make a major change in my life. The other thing I say is, in the same book you were quoting about warfare, I have what's called the death ground strategy, where you feel like, so he's going into podcasting. And if you go in with the attitude, well, if I fail, I'll just go scurrying back to Stanford.

That's a recipe for failure in itself already. Your attitude is already half-assed. You're already half into it. You go to yourself, I've got to, I'm cutting my ties at Stanford. If this podcast doesn't work, I'm not going back. It gives you the energy, the motivation, the desire to actually make it successful. But if you're always going through life kind of with half measures going, well, if I start this business and it fails,

I'll go back to living with my parents and I'll do this other job. You're not going to put your full energy into it. You're not going to give all of yourself into it and it's probably going to fail. It's really, it's so true. It reminded me of something I was reading in one of the psychology journals about a study they did with participants where they asked them to do a puzzle

and offered them a delicious snack as the reward. And then in one group, they said, this is the only way to get the snack if you do this puzzle. And then in the other group, they said, by the way, the same snack is also available in the vending machine down the hall. And then the people in the second group where they had a plan B were less committed to doing the puzzle, spent less time trying to solve it and did worse in the puzzle. And it's this idea that a plan B actually psychologically does distract you from your plan A. Yeah. We're animals, right? We have a certain nature,

which is what I talk about in human nature. And our earliest ancestors, just to go back to something I was talking about, our brilliance, the power of our species is we are actually very physically weak compared to like chimpanzees and cheetahs and lions, et cetera, et cetera. But we use our brain and feeling the necessity,

feeling that we're gonna die unless we don't solve these problems, right? If we don't use our brains, if we don't create tools, if we don't work together as a team, we're gonna die, we won't survive, is what makes us inventive. It's what makes us creative. It's almost like a barometric pressure.

That's the metaphor I like to use. What's that? When you feel that pressure inside of you and it's very heavy, like weather that's very heavy and thick, you're motivated, you feel it. I've got to get up in the morning. I've got to do this. I've got to get up in the morning. I've got to do this. I've got to accomplish this. When that pressure goes away and you don't feel any pressure in your life, you can do anything and there's no consequences for it. You'll just waste

time. You'll waste years. You'll waste months. You'll never accomplish anything. You give somebody a deadline, right? They'll accomplish in two months what it would take somebody two years to do without a deadline it's that necessity it's that sense of there's a there's a sword at my back i've got to get it done it makes you get things done it gives you the energy it's get rich or die trying to quote somebody you talk about that in the strategy um the book about the strategies of war that chapter four or strategy number four is about creating a sense of urgency and desperation and when i was reading that i was thinking to be fair i don't know any great leader that isn't a little bit urgent and a little bit desperate and even if they feign that desperation to galvanize

people there's something about creating urgency and desperation in your life that is an incredible tailwind. Is there any practical ways that you think the average person can create the required sense of urgency in their life so they can get things done? Well, it's kind of like a level here. So you need challenges in your life. That's sort of what the death ground. So you need challenges in your life. That's sort of what the death ground is about. You're challenged. You better rise up to it. If the challenge is too great, if you're like, I'm 24 and I've never written a book, but I'm going to write the best book ever, you're going to fail because it's too far above you.

You're never going to reach it. If it's too low, you're never going to have the energy. It's too easy. It's not going far above you. You're never going to reach it. If it's too low, you're never going to have the energy. It's too easy. It's not going to motivate you, but there's a sweet spot. I don't know. I'm just, you know, just drawing it here and be like here, where it's a challenge. It's above what you can do right now. It's not so far above that you can't possibly do it, but it's enough of a challenge to mean, God, I better get my act together. I better get the energy to get together.

I better change my habits. I've got to get up earlier. I've got to work harder. It's not like I have to get up at four and force myself and work out, et cetera. I can get up at 6, 6.30, an hour earlier, and I'm going to meet this challenge that's a little bit above my level. That's a powerful way of motivating yourself. You need challenges. You need constant challenges in

life, or you're going to stagnate. It's just the law of nature. You talk about false purpose as well. What is false purpose? And how do we know the difference? Your purpose in life is something that you're born with. It's like your destiny. This is what you were meant to accomplish. This was what you were meant to be, what you were meant to do. And we were going through, we were talking about that in terms of your childhood, et cetera. Right?

But we humans are not born with that purpose engraved in our heads. We don't wake up when we're seven going, that's my purpose. If it were that easy, it would be that simple, right? But because we don't have any direction, you know, animals don't wake up in the morning if they're not nocturnal and go, what am I going to do today? I can go here, I can hunt for this animal, I can hunt for that animal, I can eat this. No, they don't. They operate by instinct. They have a purpose. It's automatic almost. Okay. We don't have that. We have to find our purpose. And because it's so deep and so important that if we don't find it through this authentic process I'm talking about, we'll find it somewhere else because we need a purpose in life. We need something to live for. What will that be? It will be drugs. It'll be some kind of

cult that I have to join. It will be some kind of political movement where I can get out all of my anger, invent all of my frustrations. It'll be on and on and on. It's something that has nothing to do with who you are personally, but it's something that you can believe in and can give you a sense of purpose. But it's not really who you are. It's like a drug. It's drugging you into believing that you have a purpose. But it's not the real purpose that you were born for. That's what i mean by false purpose and when we find our purpose if we are able to and lucky enough to discover it what's the variance and what someone's capable of that's found their person purpose versus someone that hasn't do you think like what's the difference in how they show up how they deliver the results they create the impact they have when you your purpose, it's like everything falls into place, right? You don't need to almost do anything. You'll find whatever you need to find. Good things will come to you. I know that sounds woo-woo. I know that sounds mystical,

but I definitely believe it, right? And so it's not like you have to try so hard. Yes, you have to learn skills. Yes, you have to apply yourself. Yes, you have to work hard, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. But things just go so much more smoothly when you have it. So for instance, one thing that happens when you have a sense of purpose, and I hate, it's something that I feel. So I know my narcissism is coming out again. I know what I don't want. You don't know the power of that. You can't imagine how powerful that is. So people come to me all the time with,

Robert, we can make a lot of money doing this. We could try this. Let's make a TV show out of the 48 laws of power. Let's do this. Let's do that. Let's make a game. I'm not interested. It's not my purpose. No, I don't want it. If I didn't have that radar, I'd be spreading myself out into eight different venues and I'd be, you know, all of my energy

would be scattered. I wouldn't have that focus and I'd probably end up being pretty miserable because I would have lost my purpose. But when you have a sense of purpose, it's like, no, I don't want to do that. I don't want to do that. I don't want to, I want to do this. Yeah, it can be rigid. You have to be a little bit flexible. So if somebody comes to me and goes, Robert, what about this? I'm open to it. That sounds moderately interesting. All right, maybe I'll try it, you know? And I do open things like that. I'm going to be doing, in a month, I'm going to be recording a French version of, you know, the masterclass. There's a French version of that. So, you know, I'm not so rigid where I can only write books. I can try other things because I can see value in it and it interests me. It's a

challenge. Being able to say no is so important and it's so empowering and that's what a sense of purpose will give you to among other things there's a quote that says something like distractions come dressed up as opportunities and to even know what a distraction is you first must understand what your goal and what your purpose is, or else it's impossible to distinguish between a distraction, Robert, let's go start a game, or an opportunity, which sounds much more like that mastermind thing. And I think about this all the time. You know, the more clear I am on the goal and what my purpose is, the much easier it is to understand what a distraction is versus an opportunity, because they do look the same when they come into my inbox. Yes. Well, the other thing i do is i kind of game it out so somebody comes to me

they go let's do a television show the 48 laws of power and believe me i've been through that about 85 times people coming to me that and we have even attempted it but i go I've worked in Hollywood. I've worked in television before, before I've had my books. I know the process. I know how miserable it can be. I know how you have no power. I'm a writer now where I write books and I have all the power. I have all the control. You go into Hollywood, you go into television or film, 85, you know, 800 other people join in and they all have their ideas and they change this, that, you have no power. And it's meetings and meetings and meetings and talk, talk, talk, talk, talk. I game it out and I go, I don't want to get into that trap. I don't want to be spending a year having meeting after meeting, after meeting,

hearing about this possibility, having it changed by this producer. I game it out and I go, no, I don't want to do it. Can you do that when you're younger? Can a 21-year-old? No. No? Takes a fair amount of experience in life. Because when you're 21, everything looks great and exciting.

Man, yeah, I'll do that. Why not? Yeah, it'll be fun. I'll meet some hot girls. I'll do this and the other. Great, you know, et cetera, et cetera. You know, you don't have that radar. Everything looks exciting and enticing. It takes the pain, I keep going back to that,

of things that you wasted your time in and things that failed, things that you didn't like to teach you. The ability to say no and to save your energy for what you really love. Should a young person just be saying yes to everything? You know, the problem that we have is everything has to be this way or that way, has to be black or white. And it's not like that. It's kind of in between.

You can learn to dance in life. You don't have to go this way or that way. You can kind of do both. So the best advice I give people is your 20s are the best years of your life. Actually, I think the 30s are, but let's just say for argument's sake, your 20s. You're young. You probably look pretty good. You're healthy. You've got all these things going on for you i want you to have some fun and i want you to have adventures i don't want you to be 22 and go and get a job at goldman sachs for the rest of your life so you need fun you need adventure you need some looseness you know you want some experiences but it has to have some direction to it it can't just be i'm going to write poetry i'm going to do rock and roll i'm going do rock and roll. I'm going to go and

learn chemistry. I'm going to become this, that, and the other. No connection at all between all of these things. Just trying everything for the sake of novelty. That's a recipe for not being successful. Because what you want to happen is you're 30 years old now. You've let your 20s are behind you. It's usually a time of reckoning where you go, shit, I'm not so young anymore. Okay. You know, I'm getting older. All right. I've had my fun.

I've had adventure. I'm ready for something serious. And I've learned some real skills in life. For me personally, I learned how to write or whatever it is. You didn't just go try 80 different things. You kind of had four or five that you did, you experimented with. All right, now I know what I love.

Now I can go down that path. And in mastery, I often tell the story to people of one of the masters I interviewed was Paul Graham, who was the man who started Y Combinator. You probably heard of Y Combinator. You've probably heard of Y Combinator. He was somebody who got into AI when he was like 18, 19 years old. He was like at MIT, I believe, right? Back in the late 70s when nobody was even thinking about it. Okay. He was a hacker because his father was a scientist who had computers back in the 70s,

and he learned how to hack early on. Okay, so he went down the process of going into academia, of going into programs of computer programming, et cetera, et cetera. And he was on a track, just like Huberman, at MIT to become a professor, to become proficient in it, and he hated it. It was soul sucking. He didn't like the politics. He didn't like dealing with the people.

He didn't like academia. So he quit and he became a painter because he loved design and he loved visuals. He comes back to New York. He's living in a loft. He's painting. He's happy and he's not making any money. And then he hears an advertisement on

the radio for i think it was maybe netscape one of the earliest um you know internet whatever you call it and they're saying the future in for computers is being able to sell buy and sell products on the internet he ends up creating the first, I think, the prototype for all the things that we have now. Yahoo ended up buying it for like $5 million. And then the rest is history. He spent his 20s trying something out, learning real skills. He went somewhere else, learning something that he loved. And then he's 30 and he combines the two together. And he's a classic example because he gets very bored easily. So Y Combinator is worth billions of dollars, extremely successful. He sells it and gets into something else because he likes writing, et cetera. He's kind of a prototype for a lot of what we're talking about.

We've spoken a lot about self-awareness and self and all those kinds of things. What about other people? You know, the only thing that seems to stand in the way of all of our goals in life are other people. So if I want to become exceptional at understanding the human nature of other people and using it in my favor, where do I start there? What are the sort of foundations of being great at using other people's human nature to my advantage that sounds very narcissistic and very uh awful but it's it's it is what it is part yes it is what it is exactly people as i said the main mistake we make in dealing with other people and it's a common mistake that I make as well, is we take the appearances for reality. We take their masks for how they appear to us, for their politeness, for their smiles, for their saying, oh, I loved you, et cetera, for the reality.

And we have to learn to look behind people's masks. We have to learn what's really, really going on behind them. And we have to learn some basics about human nature. People like to believe that they're essentially good, you know, saintly virtues, however you want to do it. People want to believe that they're intelligent. You never want to feel like, I'm not stupid, I'm intelligent. And the other third thing

is that their willpower, that they're in control of their lives. They do things because they decided to do it. To make people feel insecure about their intelligence, right? To make them feel like they're not moral or they're not good. To make them feel like they do things not because they choose to, but because they were forced to or because they're not aware of themselves. They hate that. They're going to hate you. They're going to resent you. They're going to resist you.

Knowing some basics about people like that gives you the power to use that for influence, for persuasion. Okay? Understanding envy in the human world. And on social media, envy is like a nuclear bomb. It's just exploded. Our tendency to feel envy to compare ourselves to other people. You've got to use that for power. There's great power in that in a marketing publicity sense.

Virality, getting other people to be interested in what other people are doing. That's how things sell themselves. If you try and tell people what they should buy, as opposed to look at what other people are doing, I want to join in on that, right? Knowing about these basic qualities in human nature, about how we like to compare ourselves, how we have these certain opinions about ourselves, et cetera, et cetera, gives you all of this power to take that human nature and use it for whatever purposes you want, for good or unfortunately some people use it for bad. Do we have to lie to be successful?

And I say this because through reading some of your work, I heard sentences such as, you should keep your true intentions hidden in social situations. You say a lot about like kind of cloaking yourself in various ways you talk about showing up as an actor that sometimes we do need to show up as an actor in our lives so in order to be truly successful i know it's a little bit of a difficult question but do we have to lie look steven being a human being means we lie, right? The moment you open your mouth and you speak, you are essentially not telling the truth. You know what doesn't lie?

Body language, nonverbal communication, the way you smile, the look in your eyes. You can't lie about that. But children three or four years old are already learning to craft what they say to mommy or daddy to get what they want. They're very clever. They're very strategic, right? They know that if they say what they exactly want, they won't get it. They learn to kind of whine and complain and put a certain tone in their voice and to be an actor, a social animal like we are. We are actors in life. Get over this idea about guilting about it. I'm so sick of that. We are actors. We are descended from chimpanzees. Chimpanzees are consummate actors. Read the

literature on that. They know how to deceive incredibly well, and they don't even have language to deceive, right? So we are actors. The moment you go out in the public, you're not telling people, oh, you're fat, you're ugly, your writing sucks, I don't like what you're wearing. You never do that. You're an actor. When you see your father, you act a certain way. When you see a little kid, you act a certain way. When you see a little kitty cat, you have a certain tone in your voice. When you deal with your boss, the person who pays for your podcast, I don't know if there is such a person, you act a different way. You're constantly changing who you are and how you act. One moment you're

Robert De Niro, the next moment you're, I don't know what other actor you are, but you're changing your roles depending on who you're dealing with. I'm so tired of people not recognizing this fact that we are all actors, that we are constantly deceiving. Yes, there are differences, there are qualities of lying. You know, I understand that. There's Donald Trump lying, and there's the lying of the everyday white lies in which we have to say certain things to get ahead. There are degrees, I understand that. And some lying can be very harmful and very counterproductive in the end. But the moment you enter the world and the moment you open your mouth, you are in some ways already an actor and you are already using forms of

deception. Why can't we be our true selves? Because it would irritate people. Because it would grate, you know? I don't know about you, but I appreciate politeness, right? I go somewhere and I know someone's being polite. I know that they're not necessarily meaning it, but it's nice, right? It's kind of smooth. It kind of makes everything sort of smooth. If people weren't polite, I'll be grating

and like two pieces of metal constantly hitting each other. It'd be so annoying. You'd want to kill yourself or you'd want to kill people. You'd become a murderer, you know. Social life depends on that kind of smoothness, those interactions. So we need that to some degree. If we were just always telling people what we really thought, our world would collapse tomorrow.

What about showing our weakness? I've got this quote from you that says, if you are weak and ask for little, little is what you will get. But if you act strong, making firm, even outrageous demands, you will create the opposite impression. People will think that you are confident and that it must be based on something real. You will earn their respect, which in turn will translate to real leverage.

Well, it's about certain situations. So I don't want you to apply that idea to everything in life. And some people make the mistake when they read the 48 Laws of Power, they think, well, I'm going to use that everywhere. No, it applies to certain situations. So let's say you're negotiating. And I know I dealt with this myself. I'm actually a fairly timid person by nature, but I've learned to cultivate the opposite. So if you're negotiating a price for what you want for your time, for your services, and you're not very confident and you kind of ask for a little, that's what you're going to get because people aren't going to, they're assuming that you're not really up to the task. You say, all right, $20,000 is enough. That's what they'll give you.

But if you raise your price high and you say it with the right voice and you believe in it, they're going to go, wow, that person is confident. And if they turn you down, that's fine because somebody else will give you that price. If you set your own value by what you believe about yourself, if you think that you're worthless, if you're not very good at it other people pick that up as you were talking i was thinking about adam newman from we work and this conversation i heard with him and the founder of softbank in the back of a taxi where adam newman's asking for a billion and then the owner of softbank this very eccentric chinese very rich asian man goes

do you know what adam the only problem with you is that you're not ambitious enough. And he writes him a check, I believe for like five or $10 billion in the back of this taxi after like something like 12 minutes of being with him. And I always thought about that and thought, Jesus, what if I just started asking life for way more? If I just multiplied all of these emails that I send and requests I make by 10, what would happen to my life over this course of 10 years? Well, yeah, you probably would have gotten a lot more than you got without asking for that. Yeah, because we're creatures that, as I said before, we look at the appearances of things. Look, it's a very easy metaphor here. You go into a social situation like a party,

and you go up to somebody who's kind of nervous and insecure and anxious. And I'm not criticizing that because we all have insecurities. I have many of them myself. But you go up to somebody like that, and it makes you feel kind of nervous and insecure, right? And you're kind of fumbling for words, and a bit of awkwardness happens. Reverse that, and you go up to somebody else, and they're kind of confident. They look you in the eye.

Their voice is strong. Their body language is strong. They connect to you. Whoa, you think it brings out that part of you was like that you might be intimidated, but also might bring out your own kind of confident self. I remember being around 50 Cent, who's a very charismatic, confident to the point of ridiculousness. And it was very infectious. I felt that way after being around him for a couple hours. I was with him for several months. It rubbed off on me, right? We have these kind of viral contagious effects by people. So if you project strength and confidence,

you know, and I understand it's a little different for women, which is an interesting subject because sometimes projecting that for a woman will rub the wrong way because people will think that, and it's a terrible thing about us, that women are judged by a different standard, or that'll seem like they're a bitch or something like that. So I understand that there are nuances here and that the game is different for women as it is for people of other ethnicities as well. So it's not just one way or the other, but to the degree that even for the woman

that you have this air of confidence, that you believe in what you're doing, that you believe you're worth it, it projects itself to other people. You don't have to scream and shout and you don't have to demand $10 billion. But if you feel confident, if you feel you're worth this amount of money, it will project outward to other people. Body language. I want to talk about that. You said earlier, it's one of the things we can't lie about.

Is there anything that you still look for today when you're trying to read someone, their body language? Are there certain cues? Is there postures? Well, you know, in reading nonverbal communication, it's a different form of intelligence. It's not algorithms. It's not formulaic. It's human. It's emotional. It's empathetic. It's a reading without words. It's attuning yourself to other people. So I attune myself to people's emotions, to the vibe that they give off in an overall sense. A gestalt is one thing that I like to do. So if I had to give it a word,

I would say anxious, or I would have to say outgoing and extroverted, or I would have to say impatient or whatever. There's an energy that kind of defines them. It's a word and that word is not precise, but there is an overall feel that I get from a person. And then I'm always looking at specifics. It's not like I'm sitting there consciously in my head going through a checklist. I'm just feeling certain things. And I'm feeling that the eyes are kind of dead. They're not engaging with me. And you can't put that into words, but you know the feeling.

So when someone's looking at you, but they're not really looking at you, you know what that feels like, don't you? And a lot of psychopathic people, a lot of narcissists do that. So part of their face pretends to be interested in you they are looking at you in the eye but they're not really looking at you they're thinking of something else they're seeing in you what they can get out of you they're seeing you as an object right eyes are hard to lie they tell you something now actors very skilled actors can kind of create some of these impressions. But one thing that they can't fake is the tone in their voice. And actors will tell you that it's the hardest thing to actually consciously control.

So the voice of a person tells you a lot about their confidence levels, tells you a lot about, you know, just about their general emotional tone, about their character, about who they are. It's very difficult to fake. And when it's hesitant, when it's like stammering, when it's not, you know, you can kind of sense something from people's voice and it's very hard to fake. And then the smile, the smile tells you a hundred different things if you know how to

read it. There's the authentic smile, which I'm not going to fake right now, but well, I just, it lights up the whole face, you know, like you really feel joy. You can't, you don't, you can't forget your eyes go up, your cheeks go up, everything kind of connects together, right? The fake smiles. You know, we've all seen the fake smiles. Just when the mouth goes up and the rest of the face doesn't bother. Stephen, I really like you. You're really wonderful.

You know, most of the time, most smiles are fake. But you can kind of, when you see the genuine smile and you go, that's what caused the genuine smile, you should become aware of that. And then body language tells you a lot. Like is somebody, when they're talking to you and you're standing up at a party, is their body kind of facing another direction while they're talking to you? Are they kind of looking out that way while they're talking to you? That means they're not really interested in you. They're not really engaged in you, right? Also, when you catch people by surprise and they don't have the time to put on a fake smile, I often tell people to do this. Like there's somebody in your office and you don't know whether they're a snake or whether they're

actually genuinely your friend, but you suspect it could go either way. You kind of approach them from an angle, right? And you surprise them and you come up to them and you go, they look at you. And for a second, you detect what we call a micro-expression of disdain. And then they put on the smile. That micro expression, which scientists, psychologists have studied lasts for like less than a second, much less than a second. You have to be able to read it,

but it reveals whether they actually like you or they're totally false. They can't fake it. So if you come to straight on though, oh, hi, Steven, I love it. Great to see you. They come to straight on though oh hi steven i love it great to see you they come to oh they kind of pretend then they try and act and you you can get clues like that there's so many ways to read body language it's such a fascinating subject i could go on for hours about how important is it you know you're talking about colleagues and team members there, and earlier you said that people are contagious.

How important do you think it is to the success of our lives, and I pause there because success means it's a personal thing, it's a professional thing, to surround ourselves with the right group of people and to be intentional about that? It's very important. I have a chapter in the 48 Laws of Power about infection. And I think it's an experience many of us have had where you're around somebody

who seems at first glance to be very interesting. And they become your friend, maybe. They're very dramatic, and they have all these stories to tell, and they seem almost slightly larger than life. And you engage with them, and then you become friends. And then slowly, slowly, slowly, it becomes clear that they're a little bit nuts, right? They're always talking about how this person screwed them, how that person screwed them, how this boyfriend or girlfriend was so awful and so nasty. You're going to realize, is this true? Or is it maybe they are the problem? But now they're your friend and now you're emotionally attached to them. And now they have room to play all these

kind of games on you and all of their drama starts infecting you. And now they have room to play all these kinds of games on you and all of their drama starts infecting you. And it's like, God damn it, I want to get away from this person, but I can't. They've infected you with their negative energy and it gets under your skin. And so you have to avoid people like that. You have to read before you get involved with them

that they are a drama queen or a drama king because there are just as many men out there who have this quality. You have to see that they play the victim of everybody else, but actually they kind of bring it onto themselves. Some people are genuinely unfortunate. Bad things have happened to them and it's not their fault. I'm never saying it's a misconception about that chapter that you should avoid everybody who's unfortunate there are people and a lot of people out there whose circumstances have put made them you know in their what's going on it's not their fault right but there are other people you have to recognize that the bad things

that happen to them are things that they have brought on because they have this infecting power. It comes from deep insecurity. You don't want them in your life. Being around insecure people will make you insecure. Being around confident people who kind of know what they're doing, who've got their act together, who are trying to make things and accomplish things. Because there's so many people out there who talk and talk and talk, but never do anything. Being around people who do things, who get things done, who've made a business, who've

made this, that, or the other, their goal to be around because they'll infect you with their positive energy. Frenemies. Yeah. Do we all have frenemies and how do we spot frenemies? Well, hopefully we all don't have them. But in the laws of human nature and in several of my books, I talk about the phenomenon of envy, which is a very, very powerful human trait. It has roots, very ancient roots. We know that in hunter-gatherer societies from thousands of years ago, envy was a real problem. And so they create all kinds of rituals to avoid envy, where the moment somebody in a tribe received a gift, they had to give it to other members so they wouldn't face envy. Because facing envy, you could be murdered for it. So you

learned all of these rituals. And we've noticed that chimpanzees feel envy. You give one of the higher up chimps, because they're very hierarchical, a grape. And all of a sudden, all the other chimps are very wanting that grape as well, and they feel envy, and et cetera, et cetera. So it's an extremely human emotion. The thing that we don't realize, though, that the people most likely to feel envy, first of all, we all feel envy. We're all comparing ourselves to other people. I feel it all the time. Right now, I envy Ryan Holiday because he's, you know, so 30 years younger. He's sold so many books.

You know, he's got all this great stuff. I know what envy is like. I feel it. We all feel small degrees of envy. But there are people, I call it passive envy, but active envy means people act on it. They do something to hurt you. They sabotage you in some way. Frenemies are the classic scenario. So somebody who feels envious of you ends up befriending you. And consciously, they may not be even aware of that. They think, well, I do want to like them. But unconsciously, they feel envy. They think that you have success that you don't necessarily deserve,

that you have what they want, right? They become your friend and they charm you, et cetera, et cetera. And then lo and behold, you start noticing all kinds of behavior that's very ugly, that you weren't expecting because they're your friend. They start saying bitchy comments that get under your skin, that make you feel insecure. They take things from you. They act in ways that are hurtful, but because they're your friend, your first instinct is to blame yourself. Well, maybe it's my fault that they've done this. Maybe I'm actually to blame for what

they're saying, et cetera, et cetera. So I believe behind the frenemies phenomenon is this phenomenon of envy, where the person secretly wants what you have and they're becoming your friend so that they can wound you. And what's best to do is to recognize that. And one common sign of a frenemy of somebody who's befriending you out of envy is they're in a rush to be your friend. Normally, we like to take it a little bit slow. We just don't let anybody into our lives. We like to vet them a little bit beforehand, right? We don't trust everybody. But the person who feels envy is like, I love you. You're fantastic. I want to be your friend. We got to hang out. Let's go

out for dinner the next night, et cetera, et cetera. They're in a hurry. That's a sign that something else is going on because that's not natural. What about when friends become frenemies? Because sometimes through the process of us changing, you might inspire that envy. Yes. Like your status changes. We've all had to deal with that. I've had to deal with that as well. You have success and you came from a background where you weren't so successful and your friends are still there and they envy you and they're not very nice to you.

And it's not a good quality. And I understand the quality. I understand where it comes from. And I've, I wrote about it in human nature where we're all aware of the, of this, of the, what we call schadenfreude. Schadenfreude means you take pleasure in other people's pain. So you hear a friend didn't get the job that they wanted to get, and you go, oh, I'm sorry. But deep down inside, you're kind of happy. We all go through that, right?

The opposite is mitfreude. It's an expression that Nietzsche coined, which means you feel joy for other people. I like to try and cultivate some of the higher qualities in life. So if something good happens to somebody, my first thing is I might feel a twinge of envy, but then I go, it's great for them. I'm actually very happy. I'm excited. I share their joy in what has happened, right? But it's not natural. So when somebody that you know and you've known for a long time has success in life,

your first thing is to be, they didn't deserve it. They kind of cheated their way to it. Okay, as we talked about in the very beginning, you confront that ugly emotion in yourself and you go, that's not who I want to be. And you go, I'm going to make myself feel the opposite. I'm going to make myself feel happy for their success. It's not natural. And most people don't go through that. And I know personally from people I knew before I had any success in life,

they're the ones that give me the fewest amount of compliments for my books. They never read my books in the first place. They're very spare with what they say. They've got a pinched look on their face. Whereas people I've never met before in my life give me all kinds of compliments. Why is that? Because they're envious. They're upset.

Are you threatening them? Because they see themselves like you because they knew you and you're from where they were from. So you're even more threatening. You're holding up a mirror to them in a way that makes them feel even more uncomfortable. Well, they're not going to feel that way.

So what people will go through in that sense is, and this is how I think through, oh, Robert sold himself out. He wrote a book that's evil, that's nasty, that's manipulative. I didn't think he was like that. I thought he was this nice person. Oh, I don't like his book. It's ugly. They'll go through that process. They'll stay my friend because we've had years and years together. It's very, very common. At least I know that. They do that with my books. Even though my later books aren't like the 48 Laws of Power, they still have it in the

grain that this guy who used to be so sweet and nice wrote these nasty evil manipulative machiavellian books he sold out what is it at the heart of the 48 laws of power that some people are triggered by like what is that what what was the single most triggering concept or the most most controversial or the concept that people just had a surface level allergic reaction to on site? Without even really reading it, they just, oh, I don't know. Yeah, they read the back of the book. They read the names of the laws and they go, oh, that's ugly. And a lot of times they've had to deal with ugly people in their lives.

And so that's when I see the authentic disgust reaction. I understand it, that they had to deal with someone who was very manipulative and they find it disgusting. Of course, when I get to have a rational discussion with them and I calm down their emotional reaction, I said, look, if you had the 48 laws of power before this person manipulated you, they would have never been able to manipulate you.

That book is the best defense you could ever have in your life. It's like a shield. Once you've read it, you know all the tricks people are playing on you, right? They know they're posing as a friend and acting like a spy, right? They're concealing their intentions,

you know, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. It's showing you all of these tricks, Okay. But that's when they calmed down and they were able to say that. But the idea that we're not angels, that we don't all have the best intentions in life, that I'm writing a manual, they think, for how to manipulate, how to deceive, how to con people, triggers people very much. A lot of people who've suffered in life, who've had a lot of pain, understand that there's irony in the book. They don't read it the same way. They read it knowing, yeah, I've had this happen. This is what people are like. I'm okay with it. I'm cool with it. And I must say, I don't know if this will come off wrong, but a lot of the readers who responded most positively to the 48 Laws of Power early on

were African-Americans, people like 50, people in the hip hop business, et cetera. They didn't have any illusions about human nature, about how good we are, because they've seen the side all throughout their lives, right? 50 said when he got into the record business, he was shocked at how political people were, how manipulative they were. So they weren't having that same reaction. They weren't having the guilty reaction like, oh, I don't want to read about that. Why do we even have to discuss that? That's not positive. That's not helpful. That's, I think, a lot of what triggered people. It's funny because I was speaking to a CIA agent recently, and he said something at the end of our conversation to me. He said, you know,

one of the things I've come to learn from being in the CIA is that I no longer believe that equality is possible. And he said equality, equality. Yeah. Because that's just not the way that the human world works. And we all pretend we want equality. We all pretend we want everyone to be equal. But if you look at every game we play, whether we're politicians or we're business people or whatever, it's all about hierarchies and power and getting ahead, even that the sheer nature of being a politician is campaigning to get into a position of, you know, objective power. And I wanted to know what you thought about that. Well, I mean, there's some truth to it in the sense of there's something in our nature that is hierarchical, that has deep roots in us. But I do believe in one form of equality. And that is everybody at their birth has the possibility for following the path that I talk

about in mastery, for being great, for fulfilling their destiny, for being the unique individual that they are at birth. So everybody is born with a DNA that will never be replicated in the past or in the future, right? There is a uniqueness about every person. And there's a uniqueness about your parents, about your background, about your early years, right? And that uniqueness is a seed that if you cultivate it and you use it and you know your purpose and you mine it for power.

In mastery, I interviewed, one of the masters I interviewed was a woman named Temple Grandin, who was born with severe autism. At the age of two, she was about to be committed to a hospital for the rest of her life. She was like, almost like in a walking coma. So for some reason, they got her a teacher to teach her language. And she started emerging a little bit. And then slowly she blossomed. And she realized it was something common to a lot of autistic people, that she had an incredible connection to animals. And a lot of autistic people have that. She couldn't connect to people. They were so tricky and deceptive. She didn't know how to deal with them. But animals give her a horse, a dog, a cow. She felt like she was one of them. She ended up following that path and becoming a high-level animal behavioral scientist.

She was born with autism, about to be committed to a hospital, and yet she achieved incredible success in life as a scientist. I do honestly, and I'm not faking it, I do honestly believe that everyone has that potential. But it's not equal in the outcomes of that. There are a lot of people, the majority of people don't follow that path. But I do believe everybody has that potential. Is that potential like objective greatness? Or is it our own subjective greatness?

I can become the greatest version of steven or do you believe that everyone could become great in the context of you know the very best in the world like you know steve jobs or no they're not gonna you don't have to be the very best in the world i mean i uh when i mastery came out we were uh the new york times wanted to do a story about my house in the home section. Okay, well, why? But all right. I never get any publicity from mainstream media. So, okay, fine. So, I had to quickly upgrade my house because they were going to come over with photo photographers. And we got a man over to do the tile work on my patio, which looked like hell. And I told people, this guy was a true master. He wasn't like making six figures.

Nobody would ever write an article about him. He will die and no one will ever know that. But I could see in the quiet quality and how well he understood it and the care that he took in it and how much he enjoyed creating a beautiful effect with tile work, that he was a master. He doesn't have to be the best ever. You don't have to be famous and successful. There are grades of this.

There are degrees of it. Some people, it's just being a great parent. They're very social. They're very empathetic, and they're not maybe going to become an extremely successful finance person, but they're really good at raising their children and they put a lot of effort and care into it. That's fantastic. You don't have to be famous, you don't have to be Steve Jobs. There are levels of it, right? But the sense of this was what I was meant to accomplish and I'm following it and I'm happy what I do. I feel

fulfilled by my work and I can go on doing it. I take it seriously. I care about it. I do believe that anybody can have that level of power in their life. I think I struggle with that, if I'm being honest. Yeah, please. On a personal level. I struggle with enough being enough. And also, I think I've grown up in the generation where there's so much comparison everywhere we look,

when we open up our phones and Instagram, that you kind of always are led to believe that you're not quite there yet. Now, I've contended with the idea that maybe that's a good thing because it drives you forward. It's that pressure you described. It's that creates that urgency, that desperation. So maybe I should never believe I'm there yet.

But then also I wonder, am I going to defer happiness off into the future? Because I think it's behind some kind of accomplishment or job title or, you know, success in my life. And, you know, when I hear about that tiler, I go, that person that was tiling your patio, I'm really jealous because they sound contempt with much less than would make me contempt. What is the correct, correct answer? Is it to be the happy Tyler who's tiling the patio or is it to be the impatient Steve Jobs that's striving for the personal computer?

Well, it depends on who you are. We're all individuals. We all have our unique energies. It's the fact that you engage, you love that you're emotionally connected to, that it gives you a sense of fulfillment, that you're not looking over your shoulder, oh, I could be doing this instead. I'm fine with that. It doesn't have to be the Steve Jobs who's continually dissatisfied, who's Faustian, who always has to have more. I'm not against that

either. I don't know why we have to be so judgmental. If people are following the path and they are in love with what they do and they have a genuine connection to it, I'm not going to judge it because they're not famous or because they're not trying to be the greatest, the Michael Jordan of tiling or whatever, et cetera. I think it's fine.

And you, you're not happy. You want to crush it. You want to have the number one podcast. That's fine as well. Why can't we have, you know, that kind of diversity in our world? The most important thing for both those types of people, the people that have that sort of insatiable sense of ambition, but also the people that are contempt with whatever they're doing in their lives from what i heard there is they both love what they're doing and they both have those core components that you described earlier like they both feel the challenge in their work still and that challenge might be okay i'm going to do a bigger patio today or it might be i'm going to launch a billion dollar business tomorrow

for someone else and it's really about those cool components of like challenge meaning purpose yeah yeah because what you don't want is you don't want to be in your 50s in your 60s facing death you know because your days are numbered who knows how long you're going to live and you're going to go damn it I could have done something with my life. When I was a child, I had these dreams. I thought I was going to be really great at it. And I never realized it. I went off on these other paths. I was lost. I thought I was happy, but I never really fulfilled any of those childhood dreams or those fantasies. You know, it's a terrible, terrible feeling.

And I want people to avoid that. As long as it's something that engages you, that's connected to that child that you were, it's something that you love, and that you can create these challenges for you. Is death a motivator for you? Well, it certainly is now, you know, because my days are literally numbered. You reach a certain age and you know, you can literally count the numbers of the days that might be left to you. And I nearly died several years ago with my stroke, came this close to dying. You know, I was driving my car.

And if my wife hadn't suddenly seen something, I wouldn't be talking to you here right now. Either I would have crashed and died, or I would have had such bad brain damage that I'd be a vegetable. So I know about death. I feel it in my body every day I wake up. I do my morning meditation. I'm aware. There's a practice that I have in my meditation where this could be my last thought. I could die 10 seconds from now. What do I want in my head in those last seconds? Do I want to have some petty little thought about somebody who did this

or said that? Or do I want to have something else greater in my head? I'm constantly aware of my mortality. And with the book that I'm writing, it's always in my mind because frankly, I'm aware that I might die before I finish the book. So now I've written two-thirds of it. If I die tomorrow, the book can be published. And that's okay. I can live with that. But I'm in a hurry to get it done because I know it could happen at any moment. And it almost happened to me.

So I'm continually aware of it, but not in a bad sense. In a way of it kind of gives meaning to my life. It makes go, they take it all for granted. They walk around unaware of their mortality, of how their body could break down any day now. I'm aware of it. So I'm not going to feel envy because my mind is at a different level. I'm aware of the ephemeral nature of life. And it makes everything kind of beautiful to me.

It makes me appreciate everything around me. I don't mean to be too saccharine about this because it could come off that way because there is a dark side to it. And I definitely, in my dreams and in my thoughts, I have a lot of that darkness. But I believe the awareness of death is is a beautiful beautiful thing it's it's it's it's it makes everything intense and makes everything a glow with that awareness if you were my age i've just turned 31 wow you're a kid jesus christ man I hate you I was 31 I was the biggest loser that's amazing

if I could transplant that awareness from your head to my head it's hard that you've got from the life you've lived but also from

that stroke incident and the perspective of your mortality that it gave you and the ephemerality of life that it showed you, how do you think I would live my life differently? How would you have lived your life differently when you were 31? You know, I make a point of I never go through that exercise because I believe in something called amor fati,

which means love of your fate. Everything happened for a purpose. I wouldn't have done anything differently if I had to go back because it all led to the right things. So if I had been in a hurry when I was 22 to be successful as a writer, I would have never been able to write the books that I wrote. It would have all gone askew. Who knows where I would have ended up. I'm very, very happy with it.

I don't regret anything. But if you're young, what often happens is because your life, the pattern of your life, if you think of it as a weaving is only like for you is only like a third woven, right? For me, it's like two thirds woven. So I can see all of these patterns that you can't see in your life. But at your stage, you tend to think, I've got all of this time ahead of me. I'm so young. I can do this. I can go travel here. I can do this business and that business, et cetera, et cetera. You don't feel that sense of urgency. You don't realize that tomorrow you could be hit by a car. Tomorrow you could suddenly be diagnosed with cancer. People are dying now in their 30s and 40s. I read, unfortunately, when you get older, a bad habit is you start reading the obituary pages.

I don't know why. And you start reading about people, a lot of people who are in their 40s and 50s are dying left, right and center today for various reasons. It can happen. And what it does to you is it says, I only have so much time. I wanted to accomplish this one thing that I've been putting off. Okay, you wrote your book. Maybe there's something else that you've always wanted to do, but you have never done. And you're kind of putting it off.

A sense of urgency, a sense that your time is relatively short is a good thing. The other thing is, it makes, as I said, it makes everything a little more intense, a little more aglow is the word I like to use. So I used to swim like three days a week and I would swim long distances and I loved it. It was my greatest therapy. I just loved getting out of my head and just going, being in the water. Okay. But I never appreciated it until now when I can't do it. So I want you to appreciate you going to the gym, having your health, to being able to do these things. Don't look at it like take it for granted. And it pisses me off that young people take all this stuff for granted. They think that I'm privileged because I have this success center.

No, when you're young, you have all those privileges. You have your health. You have other things that could be taken away from you. Don't take for granted these things in your life that you have that things that could be taken away from you. Don't take for granted these things in your life that you have that are not going to last forever. Think in those terms and think of how more intense everything around you becomes when you have that mindset. One of the things I think I worry that I take for granted is my romantic relationship with my partner. And, you know, hearing your story of being in that car that day

it's literally evident that your romantic partner can save your life she did and um yeah uh you know we've been together for a while i'm not going to say how many years because she doesn't like hearing that. So, you know, we have a deep, rich past and it's a wonderful thing. And she saved my life and saving someone's life, man, it really is important. It really means a lot. It kind of changes things. And in my book that I'm writing now, I wrote a chapter on love, which is something I've never written about, obviously. I've written about seduction, et cetera, but I've never written about love. And I wrote about the incredible, the sublime quality that you can have when you allow yourself to go deeper and deeper and deeper into that falling process, where you get rid of your ego,

you get rid of your defenses, you get rid of your defenses, you get rid of all the resistance, and you just let yourself fall, fall, fall, fall, fall. And you connect to someone on that deeper, deeper level. It's, as I say, it's a chapter in the sublime because it is a very sublime experience. And the reason I wrote it is I feel like people are missing that now because they don't want to be vulnerable. They don't want any pain. And falling for another person and letting go of your defenses opens you up to pain, right? And we don't want to experience that. We want to be invulnerable.

And it's like cutting off all the richest experiences in life. And so I wrote that chapter addressing that and say, let go of your defenses, let go of your resistance, let yourself go into that process of falling, feel what it feels like to have your ego dissolved in the presence of another person and care more about them than you care about yourself you mentioned a second ago dark thoughts and dark dreams we all have dark thoughts our dark thoughts are our own how do you go about dealing with dark thoughts and what are those dark thoughts that you're able to share well you know um in my dreams i'll be doing all kinds of weird things a lot of times there'll be guilt like did i actually murder that person are the police actually after me damn it what's going

to happen what's going to happen? What's going to happen to my reputation? Then I wake up, you know, so all that kind of stuff happens. But also doubts about myself and depression and about, I've dealt my whole life with feelings of like not being very worthy. Like even doubting my success, doubting that my work is any good, doubting that I deserve it. I had a lot of periods in my life where I wasn't successful. And I kind of had it ingrained in me that I could do better, I could do better, I could do better. I wasn't a good parent to myself. I was very tough on myself. And a lot of my dark thoughts are I'm still very tough on myself. And it's like, you know, the other dark thoughts that I have is

I can't do the things that I used to be able to do. Is life even worth living when you can't hike, when you can't swim, when you can't go out on your bicycle, when you can't travel normally? Is it really worth it? Maybe death wouldn't be so bad compared to that. I go through that and then I go, yeah, I talk myself out of it again and again and again. But my dark thoughts are about myself and my doubts and about the

state of my body as it is right now kind of thing. If I said to you that I had those same doubts about, you know, if I was, if we were identical in every way and i said robert i'm having a lot of doubts about i can't go out on my bicycle i can't do the things i used to do i'm wondering if life is worth living and i asked you for advice i said i don't know what to do about this self-doubt i have about these books that i've written what would you say to me well um i would say um there's a lot of people who talk a lot in life who bullshit their way who say they've accomplished this that and the other and they've never done anything you have a book out there that you can be very proud of that you can die tomorrow and it's like

a memento that will live on forever and you've accomplished it. You've accomplished this stuff with your podcast. You've actually made things. So focus on that. Focus on the fact that so many people never get out of bed and amount to anything. So you've built things, you've accomplished things, focus on that. And then about your body, well, you know, when you're dead, it's all gone. Who knows what there is on the other side. But just think of the insanity of what it means to be alive. And that's another chapter in my new book. The odds against you, Stephen, of ever being born are absolutely insane. And I describe those odds in the book. And I go through from the very first cells that ever, from life forming on planet Earth

to the evolution leading to us sitting here is unbelievable. So that you are alive is an incredible, astounding thing. And you have to think about that. And you have to think about just seeing the sky, just being aware is an amazing thing. So I often think about people who are suicidal. There are a lot of people like that in life, particularly nowadays. And I know because I went through that period most strongly in my early to mid-30s as I was contemplating the lack of success in my life. And what kept me going was I still

believed that I could accomplish something. So even in my darkest moments, I managed to pull myself out. But then I think of people who maybe don't have that energy, who are kind of going down that hole. And I know from my own experience that hearing somebody tell them that life is an incredibly amazing fact won't have any effect on them, right? Because it doesn't connect to them emotionally. And I often think, how could I connect to them emotionally? How could I make it clear to them that there's I often think, how could I connect to them emotionally? How could I make it clear to them that there's something there that's worth preserving? I don't have the answer here today, but I think about that all the time. Like how would I deal with somebody

who is suicidal? And I get people writing me like that. And I've had relatives in those situations before. So that's something i think a lot about it's it's a difficult question to answer what you have to say to that person in that situation to get them to believe in the sublime to get them to believe that this life is worth living i ponder whether what maybe you need to do is to get them to take the first step to create evidence for themselves somehow whatever that small first step is I think that's great that's that's spot on that's exactly what you have to do they have to come to the realization themselves and through some action that you get them to do, which gives them a little bit of an ounce of belief in themselves,

then the spiral can turn around. So I think you're right. It has to come from them and it has to come from something that they actually do. All the talk in the world won't really help them. What that is is something that I would like to think about and it depends on the individual, but I think that is the is something that I would like to think about. And it depends on the individual. But I think that is the way to do it. You're writing this book at the moment called The Sublime, right?

Are you writing that book because of the situation you found yourself in after having the stroke and going through that journey of saying, why is life worth living? And going in search of the sublime that we all have inherently. Well, to be honest with you, about 20 years ago, I had the idea for the book. I read a book on the subject and I got excited about it because they were explaining it as it's a kind of experience that's very hard to verbalize, that goes outside of what we normally experience. And I got very excited by the idea.

And I planned to write that book. And then around after war, that was going to be my fourth book. And my agent was getting all prepared to sell it. And then I got hooked into 50 Cent. I did that book instead. I put it on the back burner. And then mastery came up and I got hooked into 50 Cent. I did that book instead and I put it on the back burner. And then Mastery came up and I got hooked into that. And suddenly it kind of got pushed aside.

And then in Human Nature, first of all, the last chapter in the 50 Cent book is on the sublime. It's about death and what 50 and facing it. Then the last chapter in human nature is about the sublime, it's about death and mortality. And the irony is that two and a half months after finishing that chapter in the book, I nearly died. But what I had planned originally was I was going to go to the Gobi Desert and walk across the Gobi Desert. I was going to go swim with whales, you know, literally whales in New Zealand. I was going to go to Tierra del Fuego. I was going to have all of these sublime experiences and write about them. And now I can't do any of that, right? All I can do is sit in my little room in my house at my desk and write the book. It's all in my head. The book is so much better because of that. So it's changed. I can't go to the Gobi Desert. I can't swim with whales or I drown. I can't go to Tierra del Fuego. I could

only sit in my office, look at the birds, go through the books that I'm reading and write the book, keeping in mind other people and what's going on in the world and their life and my limitations. So ironically, the book has become better because I had to go through this experience. But nearly dying, little bells were going off in my head. All right,

it's time to write that book. You're not putting it off any longer. And has it forced you to find the sublime in the everyday life? Well, obviously, I mean, I'm writing right now a chapter on what I call the daemon, which is an ancient Greek concept that all of us are born with like a guardian spirit right i know it sounds very mystical but a lot of psychologists contemporary psychologists have written about the daemon phenomena the idea that you have a second self a kind of higher self that in some ways guiding you it has a lot to do with some of the things we've talked about, purpose, et cetera. And I have to think about it. I have to think about it in terms of my own life. I have to think about, is there something else inside of me that's communicating

to me? What does that mean? How does that connect with other ideas about the universe? I get to read books about it. It's a very, very exciting process. It's keeping me alive right now. And then, you know, I write a chapter about animals and what's sublime about interspecies communication. And now I get to look at my cat. I don't look at my cat or I don't look at the birds the same way as I did before I wrote that chapter. So it's changing me and it's lifting me out of the kind of people who have strokes. We all have to go through terrible diseases, all of us, unfortunately, unless we die by an accident, cancer, et cetera. Strokes, the number one thing that happens is terrible depression, to suddenly lose your body and what you can do and so this has kept

me out of that depression i have to say you said that all of your books have been kind of focused on different subjects and that's very much the case there's sometimes three lines between the different books but they're all very much focused on a variety of different subjects if there was a message that kind of brings all of your work together, if this was your last day on earth, what would the message that you would want to leave the world with be? Wow, that's a really good question. A lot of my books have to do with the reality of our life and not what we want to believe, not our fake ideas about it, not our illusions, et cetera, but what life is really, really like. This is the human animal. This is how they behave.

This is what will seduce them. This is what will turn them off. This is how strategies will get us what we want in life. This is how you can master your subject. Not the bullshit thing that people tell you about mastery, where you can take a drug, where you can hack your way to mastery. This is the truth. This is the reality. So all of my books, the through line is, this is what the world is really like. It's not ugly. It's not beautiful. It just is. And it's great to just relate to the world as it is, to see things as they are. It kind of is liberating. And in a way, it is kind of beautiful to just connect to the reality and not being inside of your wishes about, why can't people be more like

this? Why can't somebody tell me this? Why can't they give me this? Why can't I be successful? Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Getting rid of your illusions and just looking at the way life is, is sort of, I guess, would be the through line of all of my books. Do you see life as a bit of a game? And is that a healthier way to view life? A game where we need to learn the rules and then play the game versus fight against the injustice of the rules of the game? Yeah, it's all a game.

Definitely. There was a great man on the left named Saul Alinsky who wrote a book called Rules for Radicals. He was a strategist for union organizing. And he hated, he would hate the world today with people with all of their virtue signaling and everything. He said, if you want to change life, if you believe that there's injustice, you have to be a strategist.

It's warfare. You have to organize. You have to understand the rules that will lead to actual change in this world. And whenever you enter the realm of rules and strategy, it is like a game, you know? And so, yeah, I believe that. And I believe people with all their moralistic ideas who think just because they believe that something is right, that it will get what they want. They're just living in it. They're fools. You have to strategize. If you don't, you're just bullshitting. You're just pretend, you're just virtue signaling.

You want people to see you as a saint. If you're not willing to get your hands dirty and to organize and to say, I've got to take this A, B, C, do you have to figure out the process of getting there? Then all you're doing is just playing a game of appearances as opposed to the real game of getting things done in life. What is the opposite of that strategy you're talking about? So I'm trying to figure out the average person that is currently not strategizing in their life. What are they doing?

Well, you know, everybody, I guess you could say everybody has a strategy, but their strategies are extremely ineffective. Their strategies are full of illusions. So human beings have to strategize because to wake up in the morning and to go, I've got to make breakfast, you got to strategize how you're going to cook and what you're going to make and what you're going to do to the day and what you're going to wear. You know, it to wear. It's human nature. It's just people do it very, very badly. And they do it badly because they're so emotional. Now, I'm not against emotions and emotions play a huge role and I'm writing a lot about it in my new book. But the ability to get things done,

you have to be in control of your emotions. You have to take a step back and you have to go, I'm not going to react. This person is pressuring me. They're saying these things. My natural tendency is to react, get my back up and bite back. No, I'm going to step back. I'm going to go, what's going to make them shut the fuck up? What's going to make them get out of my life? What's going to make, what's going to get rid of them? What's going to defeat them if they're an adversary? All right. I made that decision not to react,

to get emotional. All right. Now I have to think. If I do this, they're going to react this way. But if I surprise them with this angle, they won't know what to do. And then they'll react in a different way. And I'll be in control of the situation. I strategize. I go through a process of gaming out the possibilities here. And that's to be a strategist. The opposite is a book that I meant to write after Seduction, which is a book about human stupidity. To not be strategic is to be stupid. And stupid people create more damage in this life than anybody else with their bad strategies, their bad wars, the bad things they lead people into, their bad politics, etc.

So that's the opposite of strategy is stupidity. I also heard within there that sort of emotion, being emotionally driven is very much it doesn't allow you to have effective strategies because you'll get caught up in yeah you'll get personal things personal things and yeah and things that probably don't matter that ability to rise above though i think we all want to master that i would love to master the ability to rise above in all situations at all times. Well, you can.

When you're younger, it's harder because you've got your hormones, you've got all that energy, you've got all that adrenaline. It's harder. As you get older, it gets a little bit easier. Do you have a system that you use just to detach yourself from the emotion sometimes? Well, I'm not always good at it. So I've learned to not react emotionally when people say something that I think is going to be triggering. I just don't do anything. I go into my Zen mode. Oh, it's just life. It's just words. It's just verbiage. It doesn't matter. It doesn't mean

anything to me. I'm neutral. I'm unaffected. I'm in my citadel. Goodbye. Fine. It's just verbiage. It doesn't matter. It doesn't mean anything to me. I'm neutral. I'm unaffected. I'm in my citadel. Goodbye. Fine. It's okay. If I get angry and I write that email, which I still do, I don't send it. I put it in my draft box. I look at it a week later. What the heck was I thinking about?

I'm glad you didn't send that. You delay your reactions. But mostly, I've trained myself and i must say my meditation practices help me to not react when people say things that are so annoying that they get under my skin i just go that's them it's not me they're another human being they have a bad idea i don't care it's not my bad idea it's's their life. As you know, Whoop are a sponsor of this podcast, and I'm an investor in the company. And last month, I had the chance to sit down with Kristen Holmes. She's the VP of performance at Whoop. And I learned so much from our conversation

about circadian rhythms and things like sleep. Studies show that for every 45 minutes of sleep debt that you accrue, that your decision making ability will drop by up to 10%. And when you're chronically underslept, you'll only be a fraction of the person, the fraction of the boss, partner, friend, manager that you can be. That's why I'm obsessed with Whoop, which not just tracks but coaches you on how to get better at sleep so you can bring your best to everything that you choose to do.

If you're not convinced, you can try Whoop for 30 days, completely risk-free with zero commitment just by going to join.whoop.com slash CEO. That's join.whoop.com slash CEO. And let me know how you get on. If you don't like it, there's no commitment. Join.whoop.com slash CEO. Earlier you mentioned the opposite of strategy was stupidity. So let's talk about politics. It's a really interesting time in politics at the moment. I'm really obsessed with US politics in particular

because it's more like a reality show over here than in the UK, it's quite boring. It is very boring over there, I must admit. This year, Trump is running for re-election against Biden. The country seems to be very divided for a number of different reasons it feels i don't know i just feel like it's more divided than ever i do feel like the left has moved further left than ever before to the point that i've i struggled to resonate with that side and i still don't resonate with the the right so

i kind of feel a bit trapped what do you think of everything that's going on? And how does your kind of work inform what's happening and everything in between? Well, we all have biases. And I've come from more of the liberal side, the left side. I was actually rather extreme when I was younger. So I have that bias. So I'm not really going to be objective. So let's get that out of the way, right? You know, I have my emotional reactions, my triggering

by what I see. But I'm very concerned about the overall spirit, the overall zeitgeist. So I worked as, I know this will sound like I'm going in a tangent, but bear with me. I was on the board of directors of a publicly traded company, American Apparel. And I was brought on there because I was friends with the CEO, but he thought of me as a strategist because he loved the 48 laws of power. And I started seeing that things were kind of going downhill. And I sort of had my finger on what the problem was. The problem was our demographic was basically young women at the ages 18 to 24. And it's a very difficult demographic to deal with because their tastes change very quickly.

They're very viral, et cetera, et cetera. And so what worked early on with American Apparel, it was slowly becoming a cliche, right? And it wasn't going to translate well to a new generation coming up, which ended up being Gen Z. So I had the idea of like, we need to have these retreats, these yearly things where we step back from the day-to-day business and we think about the brand, where we're going, how we're going to adapt.

We're not going to change it, but we're going to adapt, et cetera, et cetera. I presented it to the CEO. No, we don't need any of that. What I came away with was that the reason businesses are so awful, large businesses, why they suck, why they're never successful, why they're so damn annoying, is because they're always dealing with the quarterly report for publicly traded businesses. They can't have a long-term vision because they can't afford it. They have to deal with what Wall Street will say to that quarterly report and what the investors are, how they're going to react. To sit there and step back and think about where you're going to be in a year or two, we might not even exist in a year or two, so forget it. Well, politics is the same thing.

You've got to win elections. You're facing every couple of years, every four years. You don't have the luxury of thinking of the larger picture. And that's what we're suffering from right now. Because if you look at the political situation in America, nobody has any loyalty to anything. So in my age, when I grew up, you were a Democrat, you were a Republican, and you had kind of roots. And you believed in that because, well, the Democratic Party was for the working class. We were for the unions. We were for the common guy, the little guy, the FDR mentality, even to some extent, Kennedy and Johnson. The Republicans, we were for big business, for lower taxes, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. You had a sense of connection to it. Now people have no connection at all to any particular party, which is fine. But what that means is it's so volatile. So somebody will vote for Obama, then they'll vote for Trump, then they'll vote for Biden, and then they'll vote for Trump, then they'll vote for Biden,

and then they'll vote for Trump again. And there are plenty of people in that situation. They have no roots. They're not connected to anything. And it's not people's fault. It's our politics' fault. They're not creating a sense of what it means to be an American. Can you give us a story, a myth about what it means to be an American in 2024 that will connect us, that will kind of give us a sense of what is beautiful about our country? Because there are beautiful things about it. It's possible. It's very possible

to create that kind of a vision if you can step back and you can think in longer term. All right, maybe it's hard to do that for America. But what is it for the goddamn Democratic Party? What does it mean to be a Democrat? What does it mean now to be a Republican? It just means to be a lapdog for Donald Trump to believe everything he does. But the Democrats have their own problems, their own issues. You can't have a party

that's just against everything. What are you for? I often tell people, I'm sick of hearing what you hate. I'm sick of hearing what you're against. I'm sick of hearing what you're complaining. Tell me what you want. Tell me what you're for. Tell me your vision of what a great country would be like. But they can't do that because they're only in this bubble of what I hate, what I'm against, what I'm trying to protect, etc., etc. So there's got to be a politician that rises up at some point that has a vision, that's not just a demagogue, that's not just a charismatic that's looking out for themselves,

that can connect the dots, that can say, this is what it means to be in this party. This is our vision. This is what connects. This is the glue. Yeah, they're going to be little separate parts of it, okay? But we're the party of the working class, right? We're the party that's going to protect people, make life easier for them. Or we're the party of business, et cetera, et cetera. I don't care what it is, but create a vision, a sense of who you are, of what it connects to, hit people in their heart. You see, Trump succeeds because he has an emotional, visceral effect on people, and he's very good at it. The Democrats can't learn that.

It's always about a laundry list of we're going to do A, B, C, D, and E. We're going to hit the numbers. We're going to reduce inflation. We're going to create this amount of jobs, et cetera. It's all in the head. It's not in here. You've got to create, you've got to connect to people viscerally, emotionally. You have to create a myth that will connect people, even within their disparate little niches. And it's possible, because to believe it's impossible goes against the grain of history. Somebody will emerge, I might be dead when it happens, who will go through that process, because otherwise everything will fall apart. Robert, we have a closing tradition on this podcast

where the last guest leaves a question for the next guest oh i'm not i mean i didn't prepare it's okay i'm sure i'm sure you can come up with one about the sublime maybe i don't know we'll see the question for you is okay and you're not allowed to say nothing if you could change one thing from your last 10 years what would it be and why well um i would have i would have prevented my stroke um i would have uh realized that i was burning myself out right in the loss of human nature i would have taken it slower i would have realized that I was burning myself out, running the laws of human nature. I would have taken it slower. I would have realized that my body has limits.

And I would have been easier on myself and not put myself, because that book was very stressful and very difficult. I would have taken it slower. I would have gone at a different pace. And I wouldn't have had my stroke. And I'd be taken it slower. I would have gone at a different pace, and I wouldn't have had my stroke. And I'd be so much happier. Do you think you could have prevented your stroke? Yeah, definitely.

I mean, it was a weird set of circumstances. But the stress of writing The Human nature kind of ground me down. And then I had kind of high blood pressure already. And then I took a trip to New York where I forgot my blood pressure medication. And then I was hiking in a park and a wasp stung me here. And five days later, this whole area got inflamed. I was itching. I couldn't stand it.

Went to the doctor. They prescribed me basically a steroid, which raised my blood pressure to the roof. And then when I had the stroke, my blood clot was exactly where that wasp sting was in my neck. So if I hadn't worn myself into the ground, if I hadn't forgotten my blood pressure medication, if that doctor hadn't prescribed to me that nasty prednisone, if I had just been more careful like that, I probably wouldn't have had the stroke. Are you able to forgive that sequence of events and the people involved? Yeah, I have to.

I've forgiven the wasp. That wasp maybe died because of me, because I don't know if wasps die when they sting, bees do, but I've forgiven the wasp. I've walked past that spot where the wasp stung me and given my little prayer to it and said, I'm sorry about your little life, et cetera. And yeah, I've forgiven. I've gotten over that and I've made my peace with it. You know what? It was meant to happen. Amor fati, it was my fate. And probably it happened for a good reason. I mean, I'm right now contradicting my answer to that person's question, but so was his life. Because the way I think about it is, I was kind of reckless with what I thought I could do. And probably if I hadn't had my stroke, I probably would have something else bad would have happened because I didn't realize my physical

limits. I probably would have. And so I'm alive. I have my brain, and I'm writing this next book. So it happened for a reason. If that bee wasn't there that day... Wasp. Sorry, that's my correction. No, no purchasing of bees, please. If that wasp wasn't there that day, and I say this because I've been reading a few books recently about how throughout human history these tiny little events like the nagasaki where they dropped the bombs and all of these tiny little events with a cloud that flew over a butterfly

effect all of the little butterfly effect things is there anything from the how these tiny seemingly insignificant chance events can have massive consequences you're gonna make me cry because what if there was like a little bit of wind and the wasp didn't come directly in my path yeah i know it's horrifying but is there anything because that's the nature of the world we live in where tiny little things that we cannot predict can determine our lives in huge ways can sway our lives in huge ways, can sway our lives in huge ways. Is there anything that we can do about it? No, there's nothing you can do about it. You know, it's Ryan Holiday will talk to you about it.

What you can do is the Stoic philosophy is how you react to it mentally. You can't change the physical circumstance, but you can change how you think about it and how you react robert thank you so much for your time and your wisdom and i'm so very very excited for your upcoming book because if it's anything like your past books it's really something worth waiting for and that's nice to hear thank you before we start recording you told me about the process you're

going through you spent four years writing this upcoming book sublime so far it's been four and a half it'll be another year and a half so that'll be six total years yes i it's so incredible it's so inspiring to me well keep this in mind steven i can't type so um my i used to be a fast typist and i can't go up take a hike to clear my head. So everything, it's not like it takes double, it's like one and a half times more. I have to write things out by hand. I have to edit by hand. I have to dictate into the computer. I have to edit with one hand.

I have to clear my mind without hiking. So everything takes one and a half times more. That's probably, so probably would have been like a four or five year book but as you said about your cycle when you slow things down sometimes you enjoy them more and you make better yes it is i think you're right and probably the slower cooking will make a better book exactly right i can't wait i hope everyone has your existing books because they're all um as everyone's witness today they're all based on challenging but important enduring wisdom every single one of them and i think we need more challenging wisdom in our society these days well thank you so thank you so much robert you're a

real um you're welcome here to many thank you so much okay thank you steven thank you for inviting me back.