The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett - The Subtle Art Of Not Giving A F*ck: Mark Manson

Episode Date: December 20, 2021

Mark Manson is the phenomenon behind ‘The Subtle Art of Not Giving a F*ck’ and ‘Everything is F*cked’. He has sold over 13 million books and his blog, Life Advice That Doesn’t Suck, receives millions of views every month. His new book is co-written with Will Smith and is called ‘Will’. Mark is an interesting character with a fascinating story. Quitting his first proper job in finance within weeks, Mark ended up as a pick-up artist. He has since become critical of the pick-up artist industry, although said his job was more providing a kind of therapy for men rather than trying to attract girls. Mark’s message, although controversial to some, helps millions of people face their challenges and be the most confident version of themselves. Today, he brings that message to us. So you can judge for yourselves.  Follow Mark: Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/markmanson Twitter - https://twitter.com/iammarkmanson Follow me: https://beacons.ai/diaryofaceo

Quick one. Just wanted to say a big thank you to three people very quickly. First people I want to say thank you to is all of you that listen to the show. Never in my wildest dreams is all I can say. Never in my wildest dreams did I think I'd start a podcast in my kitchen and that it would expand all over the world as it has done. And we've now opened our first studio in America, thanks to my very helpful team led by Jack on the production side of things. So thank you to Jack and the team for building out the new American studio. And thirdly to to Amazon Music, who when they heard that we were expanding to the United States, and I'd be recording a lot more over in the States, they put a massive billboard in Times Square for the show. So thank you so much, Amazon Music. Thank you to our team. And

thank you to all of you that listened to this show. Let's continue. I always felt like an outcast was bullied. My big goal in life was like, I want to be a best-selling author. And then it happens and it really fucked with me. We're wired to want status. We're wired to want to be beautiful and sexy and to want to impress others. Like that's never going to go away. The question is, is like,

what do you want once that is kind of removed from the equation? You can always choose in every moment to see things in a way that makes you feel better. It's not easy. It's actually really, really hard. But in that sense, happiness can be a choice. It's just a question of, do you know how to access it?

Mark Manson, the author of one of the best selling self-development books of the decade, The Subtle Art of Not Giving a Fuck. I read this book many, many years ago and I learned so much from it. So when they told me that Mark Manson was in London, we got in touch with him quickly. And I think this conversation is going to prove why. He is one of the most wise, honest, open individuals I've ever met. And one of the most remarkable things he says in this conversation was this smash hit book, which has sold more than 10 million copies. And I know you've seen everywhere. When that became a success, he lost orientation in his life. Mark's complete story, the story you've probably never heard, is immense. He used to be a pickup artist.

He then became an entrepreneur, which led him to become a blogger, which led him to become an author. And he draws on all of those experiences and one of the most self-aware ways I've ever seen on this podcast to deliver actionable insights to live a better life. He's a guest that you requested time and time again, and I'm so glad you did. So without further ado, I'm Stephen Bartlett, and this is The Diary of a CEO. I hope nobody's listening, but if you are, then please keep this to yourself. Mark, take me back to Austin, Texas in the 1980s-ish time when you were born.

Oh, God. What was life like for you? I mean, when I was really young, it was nice. So I grew up, I had a very kind of conventional suburban American childhood, especially when I was younger. So I had the house with the yard and all the kids on the street, playing soccer or football or whatever. Um, so, so that was nice. I think, um, where things started to kind of go off the rails, so to speak, um, when, you know, when you start hitting that age, 11, 12, 13, and you, you start, your brain develops a little more and you start becoming a little bit more aware of norms and culture and people's expectations of you and things like that. I grew up in the American South. So I grew up very religious, very conservative, and I'm neither of those things. So starting around that time, I started kind of feeling like an oddball, you know? I was really into art and music and books. I read all

the time and, you know, those values just weren't really respected a whole lot where I came from. In fact, they were viewed as suspects. I was going to say on the playground, that doesn't sound like it would be conducive with fitting in and being part of the crew. Yeah. Yeah. And it's, yeah, I mean, it's a very,

it was a very conformist culture, but then there's also, there's a weird thing in the American South that people are very sensitive to, to kind of like, you know, you think you're better than me. You think you're smarter. You think you're smart. You think you're like so good. Cause you read this book and, you know, got an A on that test or whatever. So there's like a weird, like, it actually very toxic, but like there's kind of a weird judgment that happens if you're not doing the same thing the same way as everybody else. So yeah, I started to kind of become like the nerd slash like loner kid.

And this was the 90s. So of course I wore like band t-shirts and, and dressed in all black and like. That's all back in now. Yeah, I know, right? Thank God. Bad timing. I finally know what's going on again. I'm old enough to know what's going on again.

So yeah, it was, it was a weird adolescence. It was, it wasn't, it wasn't a ton of fun. And I think by the time I was like 14 or 15, I was just like, I got to get out of here. I got to get to one of the coasts. Were you bullied in school? A little bit, a little bit. Not like to a dramatic extent,

but yeah, definitely some like shitty experiences for sure. Did you have a lot of friends back then in school? Uh, no, no, I, I had a handful of like very, very close friends, you know, other, other guys who were weirdos and loners and in the music and stuff like that. And your parental dynamics, they were your parents. I read that they got divorced when you were around that age as well. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, my, my parents are really good people, but, um, I would describe it now as they were doing the best they could with what they knew, but their knowledge wasn't, uh, I guess, sufficient to be like fully functional emotionally. You know, they came from emotionally dysfunctional families. So in their head, like giving a hundred percent, like they're giving a

hundred percent, but really they're a hundred percent is actually kind of like, you know, 40, 50% of what the family needed to like function well. Is that psychologically or financially? Do you mean like in terms of like affection, care lessons? It was primarily emotionally. So like financially we were fine. My dad's always been like very successful. But it was mostly emotionally, right? So I'm trying to think of an example here, you know, so like kind of this idea of, you know, my parents were the opposite of overbearing. They were like probably two hands off, right? So it was like one of those things, like if I had a big event at school or a big moment, or if like the girl I liked was mean to me or something, you know, it's like, I could

never go to my mom or dad. Like if I tried to go to my mom or dad and kind of like express these things, they just kind of look at me like, why are you telling me this? You know? And so, um, it was a very stoic and distant, and I use the word stoic, not in the, not in stoicism, but like very kind of cold and distant household. Like we didn't talk much and we definitely didn't talk about, uh, feelings or insecurities or stuff that me or my brother were going through. It was just kind of like, I can relate to that. Yeah. I never had, I still think to this day, well, maybe actually in the last year, but like my whole childhood, I, my mom and dad had no idea what

I was doing with my life no idea who i was dating feeling nothing my dad like we didn't i don't think we had a conversation about anything to do with school feelings you know so you kind of like you're like left to your own devices and the internet yeah to figure this stuff out which isn't the best source when you're like it's like solving solving the problem with the same brain that got you into it it's not always the best yeah solution when you zoom out on that period of solving the problem with the same brain that got you into it. It's not always the best solution. When you zoom out on that period of your life and you think, what kind of like good or bad foundations

were laid from the rest of my life? What are those lessons or foundations that were like, for me, it was like insecurity and I thought money would be everything. And I thought validation from women would be everything. So my, yeah, but. I think if there's one thing my family got right when I was young, it was money.

So I grew up with wealth. You know, my father owns a plastics business. He's been very successful. So, I mean, we had the big house and the pool and the nice cars and everything. And it was interesting actually because his business really started to take off probably when I was like eight or nine years old. And so we went from

kind of like, uh, I'd say like, uh, upper middle class when I was, and then suddenly when I'm nine, it's like, everything gets upgraded. You know, we've got BMWs, we've got, uh, you know, we're flying first class, like, you know, so we, we get all the stuff. Right. And it, it's interesting because that's pretty much exactly the time that my parents' marriage unraveled and, you know, the family kind of fell apart. So I learned at a very young age that money doesn't solve it. Like whatever your problem is, you know, unless your problem is you're hungry, like money's not going to fix it. So I was very blessed in that regard that I got to learn that lesson very early. So that, you know, we've all got that hole in us that we try to fill with something. Um, and so money was never that for me. For me, it was more, I think because I was, I always felt like an outcast, um, was bullied to a certain extent, uh, rejected by like every girl I ever liked. For me, it was much more social, you know? So it's like, I had this desperate need to be liked,

to be like the cool guy at the party, to have all the girlfriends. Like that was my big weakness. So you go off to college, what'd you study? How does that go for you in terms of social interactions? So one of the best things I ever did, you know, I, I went, I went to school in Boston and Boston's a completely different culture and environment. Um, and it's, it was wonderful for me because it's suddenly, it's like the things I care about are now cared about by the people

around me as well. So it's like, they like that you're smart and they like that you've read all these books and they, they like that you're into like cool music or like some obscure band. So it was very socially transformative. Like I, I went from kind of being like the weirdo nerdy guy to, to like having tons of friends and going to a bunch of parties and, and, and having a really good social life. And so for me, that was wonderful. It built a lot of confidence, but of course, like any insecurity, I overdid it.

So I was that guy who was literally partying five, six nights a week, you know, like for like year after year after year. You know, I was always at the party. And did that compromise your academic ambitions? A little bit. I guess I didn't do this consciously, but I kind of made the calculus in my head

that the most important thing about college is that you finish. It's like no job interview is that you is that you finish you know right it's like no job interview is actually going to ask you what you got what grade you got on your history exam your second year uh all they care is that you you have you have the degree so in my head i'm like as long as i get the degree as long as like i'm safe in terms of like actually finishing, I'm okay. So I could kind of manage okay grades while, you know, drinking every night. So I made it work.

And out of college, your first job, I heard you described it as kind of nightmarish and like a finance job that you didn't like. So I've had one real job in my life. I went into finance. So I used to play a lot of poker in school and all the guys I played poker with were going to go into finance.

They wanted to work on Wall Street and do all this stuff. And I was like, cool, like I'll do that. You know, that just seemed like kind of like the logical next step. And, um, I, I got hired at an investment bank in Boston and I went to work and I remember it was like, it was 10 AM on the first day I was doing training and it was 10. on the first day. I was doing training and it was 10 a.m. on the first day. I'd been there for maybe two hours, two and a half hours. And I remember thinking to myself, how long do I have to stay here before it's okay to quit? On the first day.

My first day. And then my second thought was, this is a really bad sign. If I'm having this thought on my first day, this is a terrible sign. So I lasted about six weeks. Wow. That was your first and only job. Yeah. I, um, yeah, I mean, I, I, the corporate world and I didn't really fit and, and I've since learned that that particular company was kind of notorious in the finance world for having like a soul destroying culture. But it was funny because I was basically just like a data monkey, you know, I was entry level. So like, I'm just

punching numbers in the spreadsheets and stuff all day. And, uh, and there's this kind of awkward gap in the U S markets. Like there's like an hour or two between when one market closes, when like the S and P closes and then the NASDAQ closes like an hour, hour and a half later. And so you'd always have this like awkward hour where there was, you're kind of just waiting around waiting for the next market to close. So I bring books, you know, I'm, I'm a book nerd. So I'd sit there, I'd have a stack of books on my desk and I'd sit there and I'd read books in that hour. And, uh, I remember my boss came by and he's like, you can't do that. I was like, what do you mean? I mean, these are like finance books too, right? Like I'm like, yeah. And he's like, you can't do that. And I was, I was like,

why not? He's like, you need to be working on something. I was like, well some computer coding and stuff in college. And I noticed that a lot of the data entry that we were doing, you could easily program a script to do it automatically. It's probably an hour or two of my days, not even necessary. And so I remember I went to my boss and I was like, hey you realize like we can get a script to do this, right? Like I could probably, you know, spend a couple of days, figure out, do some research, get it to work. And he was like, no, no, go back and put your numbers in. You know, like he had no interest whatsoever. You know, in my head, I'm like, I got this great idea. My boss is going to be so impressed. I'm going to like, you know, get moved up or whatever. And I just got shot down. And so it was just very clear, like, I don't know, it just wasn't. There's a cultural issue there, though, isn't it? Because your boss has probably

got that from somewhere above where he doesn't really give a fuck about optimizing the efficiency of this company. He just cares about getting his check and then it probably trickles up the line. Yeah. Yeah. And I remember kind of like the, so one of the books I read at the time was Tim He just cares about getting his check and then it was a bit of a double-edged sword because the four hour work week makes it sound so easy that it, it kind of like, I remember at the time I'm like, wow, this is, I could do that. Like, I'll do that next week. Like, why, why am I still here? You know? So it, it's, he made it sound so easy that it kind of gave me the courage to quit. But then of course, after I quit and I actually started to try to build a business online and realized how insanely hard it is, I became a little bit bitter. I'm like, damn you, Tim Ferriss,

this is not easy. Like I'm never going to work four hours. What was that business you tried to build after you quit? So I, uh, I originally tried to create some e-commerce businesses and try to basically kind of your classic spammy SEO blogs with affiliate links and stuff like that. And it was really like the whole goal was like, just get to 2K a month and then we're going to Argentina. Like that was the, and then we're going to Argentina. Like that was, that was the, and then we're going to party until our, like our face falls off. And that, that was the whole goal at the time.

I think it was 22 or 23. And, and it's funny because back then, this is like 2008, 2009. Back then, the way you got traffic to your, like blogging was new and kind of like the big new thing. And so if you wanted traffic to your website to sell your stuff, you needed the blog. doing was it was a dating advice and I was promoting a bunch of dating ebooks written by a bunch of people um and and that that one started to take off that one started to develop like a really large audience and so after about a year or two I realized I'm like I kind of suck at this e-commerce thing but the blogging is going really well so and this kind of started your your journey

into the pickup artistry world right so tell me about that because um before we started recording i shared a secret that i've never shared before which is that i also found myself all into the pickup artistry world when i was in my early 20s yeah because of neil strauss and then mystery and then every other book that i read and every other video and documentary youtube video that I consumed and torrent that I downloaded and forum that I scraped. But when I, when I read that in your story, I found that really, really fascinating because I suspected the incentives and the appeal of that world were probably quite similar to me in the sense of me being quite insecure and seeking, well, yeah, seeking validation from women maybe. So tell me about

your journey into pickup artistry. I took to it pretty, pretty hard and pretty quickly. I think it really scratched that, that itch, uh, that of that insecurity I had, you know, from my childhood. Um, you know, looking back on, on the pickup stuff, it's really interesting. And it's funny because it's over the years, I've met so many talented and successful guys. Like when you told me that you were into it, I kind of, I wasn't even surprised. Like I've met so many talented, successful guys in the last five, 10 years who were like, oh yeah, I was, I was, I was in that shit too. You know, it's like, we kind of like say it under our breath.

And I think it, here's my theory about what that whole thing was and why it happened. When I look back in the 2000s, self-help and personal development was still very different back then. Like it wasn't socially acceptable for men to get into feelings and trauma and healing and recovery and all this stuff. It was still something shameful. Buddies would make fun of you for it if they found out that you were, like, if you went out and read, you know, like a Louise Hay book or, you know, like, I'm okay, you're okay. Like, if, like, your buddy caught you with one of those books in your bedroom, he'd start ripping on you for it. And there was something about making it about dating, sex and dating that made it socially okay like it's it's now it's like a cool thing to do but really what it was is it was just self-help in disguise like most of it

you know for every pickup line or whatever there was like there were there was really useful advice about uh you know social skills self-esteem uh confidence um taking care of yourself you know, social skills, self-esteem, confidence, taking care of yourself, you know, hygiene, grooming, you know? And so there was like so much good life advice there. And then, but there was also so much bad advice there too. So it was this very mixed bag, but I think it was just a lot of guys like you and me who were damaged, essentially, and were trying to figure it out.

We're trying to kind of heal ourselves, but there was no other outlet available. Today, it's okay. I think it's way more socially acceptable for guys to be like, yeah, I want to work on myself. I want to get in myself. I want to like, you know, it's cool now get in touch with my feelings. Yeah. And be a mature person and all this stuff. Yeah. It's, it's like something people respect, but back then it, it was still taboo. And specifically at that age for a guy, I'm speaking for myself here, but you're trying to figure out how to get laid it feels like this this this quest in which no one has ever provided you with the blueprint or the road map yeah and then someone

whispers in your ear at some point that there's like a code yeah like a simple solution to this complex problem yeah and and then you read it and you get into it and it appears to work and you see men just like you having success in that because they've kind of learned the code or the the you know they've been they've learned the instruction manual so it feels like it solves this tremendous problem but you're totally right it actually helps you resolve a ton of things from the playground about self-esteem and why did that guy always get the girls and i didn't right like the the natural and yeah and and then things just started to make sense and that made it really sticky and addictive for me. But did you have, were you in a relationship around that time?

I had a relationship, yeah, for a couple of years around that time. And it ended badly? Bad breakup? So my first relationship pre-pickup right ended horribly she ended up cheating on me and leaving me for another guy um and so that was part of you know it was my first serious girlfriend first love um and and it ended basically as badly as a relationship can end um so i was heartbroken i was also angry and so that kind of also the pickup stuff really spoke to that of like, this is why you had your heart broken.

This is what you need to do instead. How did that impact you? Because we're talking here about like, I think we're talking about feelings of like rejection and self-worth. Because I remember my first relationship that ended really badly. The harm was all me telling myself

that I'm not good enough and I'm a scumbag and I'm maybe not pretty enough or smart enough or masculine enough. And that was all the harm. It was inside here. Yeah. It's, it's funny because I look back on that episode of my life. I think if that happened to me today, I would, I would handle it fine. I mean, I'd be upset, obviously, and hurt, but I would handle it fine. I agree with you. You know, for me, when I look back, my understanding of relationships, love and relationships at that time, I call it the Disney understanding. You know, it was very naive. It was, uh, you know, Prince charming on the white horse and, you know, the princess and you live happily ever after. Right. Um,

it was actually a very unhealthy relationship. She and I were both very, um, just very dysfunctional and immature and we treated each other poorly. But we were in love. And when you're that age and you're naive, like you think love is the only thing that matters, that you're willing to pretty much tolerate like any terrible treatment towards each other because you're in love. Like it's the love will figure it out, right? And so I think a lot of the pain for me, it wasn't just her leaving, like that was painful, but it was also having that kind of Disney understanding of love and relationships completely shattered. Like everything I, cause in my head, I was like an amazing boyfriend and I did everything right. You know? So to have that blown up in my face and come that realization that like everything I thought was true is not.

And I have no idea what's true. Like that's a really, really hard place to be. And so that that was probably at least 50 percent of the difficulty as well is just trying to like pick up the pieces and figure out like, wait, you know, how, what is love? What is a relationship? How are you supposed to be towards each other? I have no clue. But you have a clue now. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, well, and, and pickup was helpful in that regard. I mean, pickup gave me a lot of bad, again, there was a lot of bad advice, but there was a lot of good advice. And I think it's, look, I, I, I think people who, you know, every once in a while you meet somebody who, who like they marry their high school sweetheart, you know, they meet when they're 14, they get

married and they live happily ever. Like that is, it's very rare. And people who, if that happens to somebody, it's a very fortunate thing. I think for most of us, what we have to do is, is you, you go through a number of relationships that just blow up in your face and you have to have them blow up in your face to understand what's healthy, what's not, what do you need as a person and what do you not need, and also how to give to others. Relationships require a skillset and you can't develop those skills. If you come from a background like us, you don't grow up being taught skillset. Like my parents didn't have that skillset either. So you have to learn it through trial and error. Like you learn anything else. It just so happens that the trial and error of romantic relationships is unbelievably painful. No one wants to do that. Like, yeah. Lessons no one wants to learn. So what are those fundamental characteristics then of a good relationship? I've heard you write about a few of them, things like respect.

And what are those things that you've come to learn now that you wish you knew then? I think every healthy relationship with somebody else, it starts with a healthy relationship with yourself, right? So if you don't respect yourself and if you don't value your own thoughts and wellbeing and health, you're never going to be able to set the boundaries. You know, you're just going to tolerate poor treatment from others because you're going to think it's justified. So, you know, people tend to have it backwards. They think like, if I can just find a great relationship, then I'll feel great about myself. But that's just, it's a recipe for disaster. Like you got to get straight with yourself.

And then once you're straight with yourself, that enables you to have that healthy relationship to be able to share it with somebody else. So like that's paramount, totally key. Like you got to get your own shit straight. You got to like whatever baggage you got rummaging around up there, whatever trauma you got to get your own shit straight. You got to like, whatever baggage you got rummaging around up there, whatever trauma you've got in your background, you got to start working on it. And then you need to be able to approach the relationship with a certain amount of vulnerability. Like you need to, you know, again, most of us by default,

when we find that somebody that we're crazy about or who's crazy about us, our natural inclination is to start hiding all the ugly stuff. They're like, oh, well, if she doesn't know that I did this or if I really kind of think that, then she'll love me. It's like, no, you have to come to the relationship completely open saying like, hey, here's my list of issues because we all got them. I'm working on them because you're working on yourself. You know, hopefully we can work on them together because obviously they're going to have their issues too. And so just that open dialogue is kind of necessary to even get things started. That's really where the trust and respect comes from. Because like you can't, like if you're not sharing every aspect of yourself, then you're never going to trust the other person. Like if you're always kind of hiding something, you're never going to believe

that they're actually loving you. They're believing the thing you're portraying to them. And so you're never going to trust it. You're like, oh, well, yeah, they're into me now, but it's because they don't know about this thing over here. But if you just come a hundred percent with everything on the table, that's where, that's where the trust is, is you're able to start building the trust and actually, you know, start from a healthy place. So what you said at the start, the first point, I, I've, I mean, both points were perfect, but the first point i i i mean both points were perfect but the first

point really it made me think about a million people i know that are in the mindset that if they can find a relationship yeah it will help fix their problems but they are fundamentally like not ready for a relationship so they go through this like vicious negative reinforcing cycle of like they weren't ready for a relationship they got into one tolerated toxic treatment smashed their self-esteem even more which meant that they were even less ready for a relationship but meant that they wanted one more because they they wanted to fill the the crack in their self-esteem with a person and you see them on this this sort of like repeated rejection cycle of these toxic relationships and it's like going downwards because it's smashing their self-esteem more and more each time which is making them want a relationship more and more but making them

less capable of having one and i watch it play out on social media i'm like jenny i'm like jenny stop i'm like oh she's got another boyfriend six months later i'm like oh no it's yeah yeah and and because social media what it's doing is jenny's waking up in the morning and she's seeing the car like kylie jenner looks happy on that yacht with trap like with her boyfriend in this so these happy people in front of me are happy because of their perfect relationships and it's that awful spiral so to say to someone work on yourself yeah it feels it's like well now it's the equivalent of like telling people who want to get a six pack to like eat vegetables it's correct but it's the last thing anybody wants it's like no no no give me the secret

five-day workout routine that's gonna you know it's like no there's there isn't one yeah um yeah it's interesting because these things that they work in an upward cycle and a downward cycle. And you just described the downward spiral. But it also works the other way around too because once you're working on yourself, and the work on yourself never ends, right? So once you are working on yourself and you find somebody who's working on themselves and you're able to communicate about it, then you make each other better, which makes you feel even more confident and, and more proud of yourself and, and, and more, uh, more solid in who you are, which then just enables you to work on yourself even more. And so it creates an upward spiral as well. Like one way I told a friend a couple of years ago, cause he was kind of having trouble. He was like, you know, I just,

like, you know, our emotions blind us. Right. So it's like getting in that new relationship, like falling for that person, like it feels so good. And generally the way, the way the brain works is like when something feels good, we convince ourselves that it is good. And when something feels bad, we convince ourselves that it is bad. And so he was like, yeah, it just, it feels so good that like, I really think like that, that, yeah, we are being honest and open and we are working on ourselves and, and, uh, and I think it's healthy. And then six months go by and it, and I realized that it's completely toxic and a disaster. And so I told him, I said, you know, the best way I can describe it is when you're in an unhealthy relationship or a relationship that's not quite working right,

like you're not completely being open or on the same page, it feels like pushing a boulder up a hill. Like you're always pushing hard, you know, you feel like you need to always be pushing to like kind of keep things stable and in place. Whereas a healthy relationship, it feels like pushing a rock down a hill. You know, it's like you just give a little bit of a tug and it just goes, you know, like you don't, at some point it doesn't even feel like you're putting effort into it anymore. I mean, you are working on it, but it's like every amount of effort that you put in is immediately being matched by the other person. And so it's like, you no longer feel like you're just fighting constantly to like keep things stable. And you'll pick up artistry phase where you learn these lessons. Eventually you came out the other end as we all did. Yeah. My

girlfriend's listening now. We all have come out. We we're all well out of that phase let it be known but eventually you come out of it and um you know you write you write about how you realize that wasn't a fulfilling long-term way to live yeah just you know chasing women around nightclubs trying to pick them up and ultimately trying to sleep with them. Right. And you'd slept with a lot of women at this point and you, you decided it wasn't the life for you. No, what I started to realize, you know, and this realization happened on a number of dimensions around the same time, you know, cause, cause the business started doing well and I started traveling a lot, you know, there generally anything. So in, in, in subtle art, I talk about,

I make a distinction between happiness and highs and this distinction, it was, it was pretty profound for me because we tend to, we tend to mistake highs for happiness, right? So, uh, meeting, meeting an attractive person or sleeping with an attractive person for the first time, that's a high, um, making a bunch of money. That's a high, uh, having, you know, winning an award or an accolade or going to like some exotic vacation, putting on Instagram, getting a ton of likes, like that's a high. And highs are nice. Like we all, we all love having highs and we do need a certain amount of highs in our life, but highs are not happiness. Happiness is actually kind of the inversion of that in a lot of ways. Happiness is oftentimes actually unpleasant. You know, happiness is, it's, it's not

the check that comes, you know, from the successful product launch. It's the work that goes into that product launch. Happiness is, is the satisfaction. It's, you know, it's not like the peak, the super romantic date. Happiness is being able to sit at home on the couch and not say anything and be completely satisfied. Happiness is actually often very boring. And so in my 20s, it started with women and parties and then it kind of went to business. I wanted to grow a big successful business

and then I did that and I made a bunch of money and then I traveled around the world and I lived in all these crazy exotic places. And, um, and I started to realize that like the, these are just highs. And the thing about highs is that the more you get, the more you need to get that same feeling. Right. So if you've never left your home country before, that first trip is like life-changing. It's incredibly impactful. But if you've been to 50 countries, going to the 51st, you're just like, ugh, yeah, that flight sucked.

Like, you know, like you're complaining about the taxi driver. You know, because you need that much more to get that same hit. And so it becomes a very dangerous thing to kind of put all of your focus on these things because of that diminishing returns. It takes more and more effort to kind of achieve that same sense of satisfaction or pleasure. So I really started asking myself, what are the things that I'm willing to give up? What you also don't realize is that you have to give up a lot for those highs. So if you do want to party all the time and sleep with lots of people, you're giving up the opportunity to have a stable relationship with somebody for a long period of time. You're giving up the comfort that comes with that or the security that comes with that. If you're traveling all the time and living all over the world, like you're giving up the stability of a community, of knowing your neighbors, of, you know, having, being able to see your friends consistently. Like there's all these subtle, unsexy things that you're giving up to chase the highs that you don't really realize you're

giving them up until you've given them up for a long time. So I started to realize that and, and kind of like re like rethink my whole understanding of what happiness and success is in general. So I'm, I'm keen to get into the details there, but again, jumping ahead a little bit, is that a, well, is that an easy thing to do? I guess would be my question, because when you've got that childhood force in you of like the insecurities and the social acceptance,

and that's always going to be in, you know, and it can rear its ugly head if those kinds of insecurities are somewhat triggered as even as an adult and it can say you know you need to fit in you need to get by that thing you need to travel you need to be more successful but then you've got this new set of like conscious values you're describing where you're saying well no i value these things but then that little demon on your shoulder saying buy the fucking lamborghini do you know what i mean like Like how do you? Well, I think a lot of it is, you know, I think a lot of value,

like changing your values. And again, I think I say this in subtle art, like you can't just sit on the couch and think your way out of your values. Like you need to go live them and then have them fail you really. And for me that, that, what that looked like, you know, going out and, and kind of living this fantasy life of partying all around the world

and hooking up with all these girls and then just having that fail me and realize that it's actually very empty and, uh, and, and realize after a few years that you're, you're literally not keeping in touch with, you know, all these people who you thought like, oh my God, we're going to be friends forever. And then three years go by and you realize you're not keeping in touch with any of these people.

And then you go on Facebook and you see like that now they're married and they just had a kid and they're so happy. And you're like, shit, I'm like still doing the same thing. Like I'm still drinking on a beach with the same people for like the third year straight. Like something's not right here. And in the case of money, it's like, I think sometimes people have to buy that Lamborghini and realize it doesn't fix anything. Yeah. Like it's fun for a week or a month or like you get you get to go show your friends

or your parents or whatever and then they don't really care you're so you're so right in what you said earlier as well what linked to that point is like i remember buying the big house like seven bedroom house with a tennis court yeah out in the countryside the cost was i was now an hour and a half away from my friends they couldn't come anyway like I was there for nine months before I was like I said to the landlord like please let me out and I moved into this like one bed right in the middle of the city because in fact I'd exchanged like the status ego I'd bought into the status and ego of having this big house but the cost was no one could come and see it I was lonely as fuck it meant that my commute to work was three hours there and back. It's like a terrible, insecure decision at 21 years old. Right. So, and then, but I had to do

it. Like, like Steve had to fight, like taste that himself and have it fail me as you say. So yeah, I know I'm jumping ahead again, but Will's got a great story in his book. Um, so for context, you wrote Will Smith's brand new book called Will. Yep. So Will had a hit record when he was a senior in high school. He was 17. And of course, he went out and bought like four different cars and a bunch of motorcycles, bought a house. And he has this great moment where he lined up all of his cars and motorcycles outside his new house and then invited his dad over and uh his dad shows up and he's like yo what's up pops like what do you think you know and his dad's like are these all yours and he's like yeah yeah yeah what do you think his dad goes

man what the fuck are you doing you only got one ass what do you need four cars for and sure enough like two years later he went broke you know really he spent all of his money yeah he spent all of his money and didn't pay taxes so that's a bad combination damn you really have you know and i always think this because i've read a lot of quotes and i've read a book and stuff and i always say writing, like, my words will never overcome your insecurities. That thing that kid said to you when you were seven years old or your dad said to you will always be a stronger force in your life than some 140 character quote that I say about how you should be living your life. So go do the work, right? And learn that for yourself. One of the things you say is that your one rule for life

is each person must never be treated only as a means to some other end, but must also be treated as an end themselves. Yeah. Please tell me what that means. It's a little philosophical. It actually comes from the philosopher Kant. It basically means that like,

I think anything that is unethical or unhealthy, it's because we're not, we're treating another person as a means to another end. Right. So if you're kind of using somebody for their money, or if you're manipulating somebody to try to like get a job or a promotion or something, um, or if you're manipulating somebody to try to like get a job or a promotion or something, um, or if you're just straight up like stealing from somebody or lying to them, like in all of those cases, you're true, you're valuing some external thing, whether it's money or a car or prestige more than the person themselves. And I, to me, it's just kind of like, when I look at every useful piece of advice,

whether in personal development or just how to be a good person, how to be an ethical person, it all comes right back down to that rule. Like everything you do, it needs to be ultimately for the betterment of yourself or others, like making yourself a better person and making other people better too. And anytime you deviate from that, you're either going to get into ethical trouble or you're going to get into toxic relationships. Like if I've got a car that I'm selling and I know that it's faulty, but I invite someone over and I say,

this is the best car in the world, please buy it. It's unethical. And you're using that person as a means to an end. In a personal development context, it's like if you're dating somebody, not really because you like them, but because you want to impress your friends, then you're using that person as a means

to some other end. Right. And it's like that relationship is going to go south really fast. Like it's going to get ugly. So it's not just ethical, it's practical, you know, Kant meant it like said it in ethical terms, but I just kind of realized that it's like all good personal development advice is essentially the same thing. It's like treat people well, like put place people before money, before, you know, accolades before attention or status, like always put people first and, uh, and everything else kind of takes care of itself. And that's the long-term game, right? That's the, it's cause in the short term you might sell the car, but in the long term, your reputational damage and your general sense of feeling inside.

Yeah. Which you see all the time in internet businesses, right? You see kind of those sleazy sales letters that are pushing a questionable product. And sure, maybe they have a big like $5 million launch, but they've just completely destroyed, you know, eventually all those people who bought are going to realize that the product is shit

and they're never going to buy from you again. And so you've, yeah, you made millions of dollars up front, but you've completely destroyed your brand and you're going to have to start over from scratch. Whereas if you kind of start with the people in mind and you focus on the good product, the good relationship, giving people good value, you make less money up front, but then those people stick with you forever. Product after product after product. I was watching your conversation with Tom Billion. I found it really,

really interesting and important because one of the things you talk about when we're talking about, you know, deciding what you want to do with your life, whether it's a business or you want to be a pickup artist or whatever it is, is the importance of asking the question why. And in the society and culture we live in,

especially one that's so driven by comparison, where your values are almost being handed to you by Instagram and the Kardashians, like this is how, this is what you should value like i almost i've almost felt i remember one day a kid came up to me after i did this like big talk on stage and he said i want to be a public speaker and he was like 17 and you're thinking but you've got nothing like yeah what are you and really what he's saying is like he doesn't want to be a public speaker. He wants the admiration he thinks public speakers get probably because he's insecure. And so many kids, including myself as a young kid, we don't actually know what we want. We have no fucking clue. But what we probably

want is not to be insecure and get laid. Like at the heart of it. And the pursuit of that, as you've described, takes us down a dark alley to the wrong place, usually a dead end as well. So how do I figure out what I actually want in my life without it being Kardashian noise or Instagram? Like what do I want and how do I find out? I think, so it's a tricky thing, right? Because again, I think you kind of have to get it right.

It's like the relationships. You need to get a couple wrong before you know how to get it right. And I think it's the same in pursuing a career or, or, or finding a purpose in life. Like you, you need to get it wrong a couple of times because we're experts at tricking ourselves. You know, it's like that kid, he wants admiration, right? But if you ask them in his head, he's like, no, no, no. I'm just really passionate about communicating with people. I love people. You know, it's like, we all do that to ourselves.

We all like, we find the admirable narrative to kind of explain what we want in the world. So I think you need to go through, you need to hit a couple dead ends. You know, it's like that kid, he probably should go get on stage and give the speeches and get the applause and then realize that the applause doesn't solve anything,

that he's still just as insecure as he was before. Because then once he does that, then he'll be ready to ask that question of like, why do I want to do that? Like, why am I really doing this? It's almost a question you have to earn in a lot of ways. Interesting. You know, and I feel like a lot of people, they just want to start there. And it's like, no, no, no, you have to like, cause look, we're all like the Kardashian thing, right? Like, like the reason that stuff is so popular is because we are wired to value it.

We're wired to want status. We're wired to want to be beautiful and sexy. And we're wired to want to impress others. Like that's never going to go away. The question is, is like, what do you want once that is kind of removed from the equation? But I think mentally to be able to remove it from the equation, you have to try to get some of it first and see that it doesn't work. If that makes sense. And what did you come to learn for yourself?

Once you got that stuff, you had the money, you had lots of success in the field with pickup artistry and you tried all of these things and you tried the cars. And what did you come to learn that you value? Well, I had an interesting experience in my career, which we were joking about it before we went live was like, I kind of had this realization. So I started the pickup stuff when I was like 21, 22. And then I started coaching and like teaching dating advice probably when I was like 23, 24. And I got to like my late 20s and it suddenly, it started to dawn on me that like, this is cool now, but in like five years, it's going to be really creepy. You know, like it's one thing to be a 25 year old who's like taking a bunch of dudes out to like talk to girls in a club. It's very different to be like a 35 year old guy who's

taken out a bunch of dudes to talk to 20 year old girls at a club. Like it just, it's a much different look. And I also just realized I'm like, I don't want to do this forever. Like this is fun, but like, I, this is actually not fulfilling in any way whatsoever. I need to find what my next thing is going to be. And during that period when I was doing all the dating relationship advice, I started to realize, especially a lot of clients, a lot of guys who hired me, I'd take them out to the bar and we'd talk to some girls or whatever. But after a year or two, I realized like, what these guys really need is a therapist. You know, it's their problem.

You know, they're good guys. Like they're smart. They're like, they've got a good job. Sure, they're a little bit nervous talking to a girl, but like who isn't? Really what most of their problems were is like very deep seated insecurities, emotional issues, and they hadn't dealt with it yet. And so

the last couple of years I did that job, I would kind of just take the guys to the bar as an excuse and then sit down with them and be like, okay, let's like, what's really going on in your life? You know, like, like let's get into why do you feel so insufficient or, or unworthy of, you know, dating her or talking to her or whatever. And so I, I kind of realized that like, you know, what I should be writing about is this stuff, you know, the, the, like the, the three best first dates or like how to get her to reply to your text every time. Like I was writing stuff like that back then. Cause it, it got traffic and it, it would, it would get sales, but I'm like, that's not what people actually need. That's not what they need to hear. What they need to hear is kind of this deeper stuff, uh, about self-esteem and self-worth and vulnerability. And so I made that decision to pivot into that,

to stop being the dating coach and actually start writing about personal development and emotional health. Because that's something I knew I could be proud of and I could do for the rest of my life. You can be a 50 old, uh, talking about those things and it's still like something you can hang your hat on. Like, but I never would have gotten there if I hadn't done the dating coach stuff. If I hadn't kind of been obsessed with the like, yeah, let's go to the club and like try to get laid. Like you, that's the entry point. Right. And then you find the deeper stuff along the way. And that's your sort of, now your professional value, I guess. One of the things you value professionally.

But in terms of like holistically, when you look at your whole life, what are the things where the values at the heart of Mark that allow him to be, you know, fulfilled, stable, and yes, sustainable, like the sustainable values that you think can last you because of these values i will be somewhat you know content and fulfilled for the next 30 40 years holistically gotcha so i mean the answer it's gonna sound really banal but like um but it's true uh you

know i think probably the biggest one for me is honesty and not just honesty with the people in my life. Honesty is a standard that I hold kind of everybody, all my friends and everybody I work with too. But it's also something I hold myself to, being honest with myself. I think generosity is one that I've discovered. Again, it's one of those things that when you do make all the money, like you do make a buttload of money, you learn that it's so much more fun to spend it on other people than it is yourself. Like it feels so much better and it means a lot more. Like it creates those really powerful moments that you you do remember for the rest of your life whereas the lamborghini you forget about only two seats right yeah you only

got one ass um community is an interesting one that you talk about often yeah having a community something that i disregarded when i was pursuing just becoming rich myself with connection. And it wasn't, it was actually, I think a Ted talk I saw where the Ted talk was, was telling me that men who have been in a relationship and had strong relationships live longer, are healthier, are happier. And I was thinking, what? You know, like, cause it was a counter narrative to my, like, just be, be rich, you know, thing. Yeah. I mean, community was one that I had to kind of like begrudgingly accept. Same. Yeah. Cause I always have been such a loner. Right. And, and, and it, I think living abroad for, for so long, it kind of forced me to accept my own loneliness, you know, and, and recognize,

and I was, I started achieving a lot of great things in my business and having all these great experiences and then realizing that like nobody I really cared about was around me when it was happening. And so it, it felt to a certain degree, it felt kind of pointless. So I moved back to the States and, and settled down. And, and one of, you know, one of my goals when I moved back to the US was like, I want to have a stable group of friends who are kind of on the same path as me. And it's, yeah, it's one of the best things I did, honestly. You referenced honesty a second ago, which I find really, another really interesting one. It's, when you said honesty,

what I understood was being honest about who I am, what I feel, what I think, what I'm passionate about, and stubbornly and unnegotiably protecting my right to be my true self in life and um that again it allows a lot of the the toxic insecure stuff to fall away and just wear what you want be who you are etc etc um how important has that been for you in terms of just like being your true self every day of your life and um is there any tips or tricks you have for especially someone like you who's in high demand and there's lots of people asking you to do lots of things and be lots of things. And how do you defend that above all? Honesty. First of all, you can't be your true self without honesty. Like if you're not being honest with yourself and about what you want and what you care about, you're not being your true

self. You're, you're, you're diluting yourself. And, you know, a huge cornerstone of my work in general is just all the ways we dilute ourselves because we dilute ourselves in a lot of different ways. So to me, it's, it's a constant work in progress. It's, it's, um, it's almost like a mental habit that you build. Uh, one, you know, one of the tools is what you mentioned earlier is like constantly asking why, you know, it's like, why, why am I taking this job? Why am I saying yes to the speaking opportunity? Why do I want to write email newsletters? Or why do I want to build my Instagram following? Like really why, you know, and, and try on different answers. Like always try on the answer you don't want to hear and see how it feels, see if it feels true or not. Kind of coming back to the community point, when you do find some like-minded people, like people who are also kind of dedicated to honesty and being self-aware, they can be great sounding boards. I mean, my wife is always the first one to tell me when I'm full of shit, you know, which is great. You know, obviously I don't

like hearing it in the moment sometimes, but you know, sometimes I'll tell her something and she'll be like, are you sure about, you sure about that? You know, she'll kind of like start challenging me, challenging me on it. And, um, you know, and I've learned to, to, to, um, to take that well and take it seriously. So that's kind of the first part. It's something you continue to cultivate throughout your life. Your second question was about bringing that honesty kind of into the world, especially dealing in business dealings and people who ask things. And it's hard, like, it's interesting because I wrote about this in a newsletter once.

It's like, when you're starting out, you kind of have to say yes to everything. Like, it's like, you're desperate for opportunity. And so you're just always saying yes, yes, yes. And then a weird, like, transition happens at some point where you have to start saying no to people or else you're just going to lose your mind. Um, cause there's just way more opportunities than you can ever handle. And so you have to like learning to say no gracefully, I think is a very important skill, uh, in business and in life, like being able to like let people down. And in the business context,

actually in the personal context as well, what I've kind of found to be like the easiest way to do it is I kind of create rules for myself. And I don't know what it is, but when you tell people, I have a rule and this is why I'm saying no, they take it really well. Like they actually respect it. You know? So it's like, if somebody comes to me and they're like, Hey, I've got this event, this like charity event, uh, it's going to happen this month, you know, would really love if you were able to like do a video for us or come out or whatever. And it's like, you know, I really don't want to do it. If I'm just like, Hey, sorry, but no, you know, like then it starts to feel really weird and emotional. Yeah, exactly. It feels personal. I think that's what it is. Um, because and they started, they're like, Oh no, but like, we really want you. And like the kids are going

to love it and blah, blah, blah. And then you start, you're like, God, I'm a horrible person. And, you know, and they're like, they're kind of thinking like, wow, Mark Manson's an asshole. But if I go to them and I'm like, look, like my rule is I do four events a year. I'm already booked. I'm sorry. Then it was the principal that let them down as opposed to the, you know, you. Yeah, exactly.

And they're like, oh man, I should have emailed sooner. Yeah, he wants yeah. Exactly. And they're like, oh man, I should have emailed sooner. He wants to do it, but the principal said no. Yeah, but it's true. It's like, I'm not lying. It's just, I create a rule for myself. You know, another thing, another rule, and it was a really popular article I did is, is if it's not a fuck yes, it's a no.

And so what I've learned is that a lot of times turning people down, I'll say like, look, I have a rule for myself. You know, I, if I'm going to do something, I need to be a fuck yes about it. Like I need to be all in and a hundred percent like dedicated to it. And I said, I, I'm not feeling that with this. I wouldn't be able to give it my full energy and attention that, and it deserves that. So I'm going to say no, you know? And so when you put it that way, they're like, oh, good guy, Mark Manson, like looking out for me, you know? So it's, there's like, I think there's, there's some, some tactics, there's like good and bad ways to say no to people.

One of the other things that I really loved when I was reading all of your work is this undercurrent of personal responsibility that runs through everything. And in our society, for whatever reason, people don't like that. Some people really don't like that idea of personal responsibility,

that you might be more so than you believe responsible for the circumstances of your life. Because for some people that shines that turns the mirror on them and says you've got no one to blame sure it's not the government it's not this that this your uncle whatever it's the decisions you've made and for some people that's a motivating thing it's liberation it's oh i'm in control okay but it feels like some people would rather there be a puppet master to point to. So what's your beliefs and thoughts on personal responsibility, the importance of it, and if you can as well,

like why some people hate it? I think to me responsibility is kind of like the core understanding. Like if there's no personal responsibility, nothing else is ever going to work or improve, you know, to improve anything, you have to believe you have some sort of power influence on it. And if you have some sort of power influence, you're responsible for that power and influence. So if you, if you just reject the idea that you're responsible for an area of your life, like it's like, I'm not responsible for my shitty relationships. It's all their fault. You're basically disempowering yourself from ever improving them because you're, you're rejecting the idea that you have any influence on them. I think, I think the reason or one reason why people really kind of bristle at the idea is I think we, we tend to mistake responsibility and

fault, right? So if, if I, if I'm like a typical dumb American and walk, try to cross the street in London, looking the wrong way, uh, and I get hit by a car, you know, it's not my fault that I got hit by a car, but it's still my responsibility. Like I still need to take, take control of my recovery. I need to like take care of my body. I need to decide, you know, what I'm going to do. Uh, there's a, there's a responsibility in every moment because in every moment we're choosing what to do, what to perceive, what to believe, what to focus on. Like that choice is happening every single moment. And because that is a choice,

there's responsibility for that choice, right? I use the example in subtle art of like, if somebody left a newborn baby on your doorstep, it's not your fault that there's a baby on your doorstep, but it sure shit is your responsibility. Like you have to do something. Like you can't just shut the door and be like, not my baby.

You know, like it just doesn't work that way. And so I think particularly people who have had a lot of bad things happen in their life and those things are not their fault. It's very, very difficult for them to accept responsibility because, well means you have to do something. You have to change something. You have to change your perspective. You have to change your actions. You have to change your beliefs. And all of those things are very uncomfortable. But I think the other thing is that a lot of times people get very attached to their stories, right? So a terrible thing happens to them. It kind of fucks them up and that becomes their identity. Like that's how they get sympathy from other people. It's how other people know them.

It's the basis of a lot of their relationships. And so they're actually afraid to let it go, right? Like it's actually a scary thing to let go of that identity. So yeah, it's a hard thing to do, but we all have to kind of go through that struggle. It's really interesting. It's something that I see a lot in our culture at the moment, specifically with young people,

because I think Instagram has created more of a community for that kind of like, I'm going to just be honest, that kind of like self-pitying, blame, and the algorithms are now kind of reinforcing that. And you know, you'll get more likes if you do the, it's, you know. I heard it referred to as the victimhood Olympics. Yes, exactly. Yeah. Which is like, oh, you win. You've had the worst shit happen to you. Here's your medal. One of the kind of self-development, you know, tropes or like, you know, piece of advice I hear often that's linked to that is that happiness is a choice. How do you feel about that phrase? I mean, I think it's fundamentally true. Obviously I think it's a little more complicated

than that. Um, but it kind of comes back to what I was saying. Like you, I think when people say that, what they're referring to is like in every moment you're, you get to choose what to focus on. Right. So if a car hits me in the middle of the street here, I can either focus on how unlucky I am and how unfair this is and how it fucked up my press trip to the UK, you know, and all this stuff, you know, or I can focus on something else. I can focus on, you know, how fortunate I am to survive, how, you know, and I think this is where kind of like the positive thinking stuff And so in that sense, you can always choose in every moment to see things in a way that, that makes you feel better. And, uh, it's not easy. It's actually really, really hard, but in that sense, happiness can be a choice. Like

it's, it's always within your power. There's no person on earth that the happiness has been removed from their brain. Like it's, it's all in there. It's all in you. It's just a question of, do you know how to access it? And will you access it? Will you choose to? And one of the things that does feel like a choice link to that is the expectations that we, we choose for life. And you write about how expectations can really be a curse of happiness. Yeah. How do we, so why are expectations a potential curse and why are they dangerous?

And how do we set better expectations then? Well, expectations are dangerous because, you know, I think there's a, I forget who came up with it, but I think it's, there's this like old equation where it's like happiness equals reality minus expectations, you know? So if you have these like huge unreasonable expectations for yourself, you're always going to be disappointed. But then it's a double edged sword because if you have like tiny expectations for yourself, then you're not going to try to do anything. So like there, there's this weird balance where, I mean, I, I prefer kind of like more of the Buddhist take, which is like, just

don't have expectations. Like just don't expect anything. Is that possible? No, but, but it's kind of like honesty, right? Like it's, it's, you, you never completely get there, but you should still try. And, um, it's, and it's particularly useful I I find, in managing anxiety. Because anxiety tends to come from just either irrational or outsized expectations. So it's like you're about to go on stage and talk to a bunch of people and your expectation is like, I'm going to bomb. I'm going to look like a fool, like people are going to laugh at me. And it's because of that expectation that you start feeling a lot of anxiety, start feeling terrible. Whereas if you just kind of take the expectation of, of, you

know, this is just another moment, you know, it's, it's going to happen. People are probably not going to remember it. Like it just is, it's going to be whatever it's going to be. Um, it can eliminate a lot of that. I do that with, with my book launches because obviously like any author, I'm like, I probably was probably the same with you. Like you're, you know, that when your book is coming out, like you're like crippled on the floor, like everybody's going to hate me. They're all going to laugh at me, you know? And it's, to me, it just helps to just remove any assumption of like what it's going to be, you know, don't assume it's going to do well, but don't assume it's going to do poorly. Like it's, it's going to do what it's going to do and you're going to be fine

either way. So even though you know that, do you still feel? Of course, of course, like you never, the anxiety never goes away, but it gets managed, Right. Do you, do you suffer with anxiety? Uh, yeah, for sure. And how long have you suffered with it? I mean, since forever. I mean, I am human. So it's kind of like a, I see it, well, I see it as a spectrum almost. There's like, on one end of it, it might be, and if I sound super naive here, it's because I am, like there might be nervousness before, you know, pre-performance

anxiety. And then there's like the daily struggle with anxiety, which can be like debilitating, I guess. Yeah. I think the way most people look at emotions, they look at emotions in terms of intensity. And I think that's not the right way to look at it. Everybody feels anxiety. It doesn't matter. The seems confident is managing their anxiety very well. They're channeling the anxiety very effectively into their actions and behaviors, whereas the person who's debilitated by it is not. So in that sense, I see managing emotions, it's like a skill, right? And I think this, we all kind of know this. like we all, we all know somebody who's like very good at managing their anger or somebody who's very good at managing their anxiety. And we all probably know somebody who's very bad at managing their anger. Somebody who's very bad at managing their anxiety or managing their sadness. And so I think it's, you know, we each kind of have like a

natural talent for some emotions and not others. And so it's something we kind of have to learn. Like you, you learn to feel the anxiety and then use that energy, you know, kind of adopt the right mindsets and beliefs around it, and then use that energy in a way that's effective. You write about, you know, how, especially in Everything is Fucked, a book about hope, how mental health ailments are somewhat increasing in the world, it appears. Some people say that it's because we're diagnosing or whatever. But I would assert, if I was to guess, and based on the information that I've seen, and I'm heavily involved in a company called Atai Life Sciences, which is in the psychedelic space, so we look at schizophrenia and depression and anxiety,

it does appear to be increasing. People do appear to be getting more anxious. And my general belief, which is not backed by anything, is that how could we not be in a world where there's so much stimulation? If you go back to our tribal roots versus today, it's just constant. So anxiety and thinking about the future and depression and these things are probably increasing. You talk about how a lack of something to strive for is at the root cause of a lot of this and how as life has got more comfortable, we've got into trouble. Yeah. There's, you know, so a lot of that book revolved around kind of this interesting paradox. Like there, there seems to be a very, very subtle trade-off between comfort and meaning. And kind of a very simple example is like, if you imagine, if you remember like back like a hundred

years ago, right? Like most of the population is living on farms. There's wars going on all the time. There's diseases all the time. It's very easy to know what to hope for. It's very easy to know what gives your life meaning. Like you got to get the food harvested for next season. Like you got to feed, you know, your eight kids or whatever, whatever it is, Like you got to get the food harvested for next season. Like you got to feed, you know, your eight kids or whatever, whatever it is, or you got to survive the war. And so these kinds of existential questions of like, what is my purpose? And like, what am I here to do? And am I using my talents the most effectively? Like these don't even enter into the equation. Like it's just pure survival.

And it's kind of what I was referring to either, like earlier that, that, that why question is almost a privilege. Like you, you almost earn it. Right. And I think our society has become so affluent and comfortable that we're starting at that why question, right? So it's, it's, if you're a young person today, you've grown up with this incredible technology. You have access to all of the information in the world. You're more educated than anybody in human history. You, if you are fortunate enough to go to university, like you're going to have tons and tons of career opportunities and job opportunities. So this question of like, who am I? Why am I here on earth? What am I meant to do? Is this the best use of my time? Like these are really fucking hard questions to answer. And we're hitting people with them when they're like 16, 17. So to me, it makes sense to me it's like it's a very silent cost

of our affluence and comfort makes perfect sense to me and so many just in my own life i think one of the most um dis i've talked about this before one of the most destabilizing disorientating moments of my life was when i was i had financial freedom freedom. And in fact, it was on the day where someone offered me financial freedom. So it was when someone offered to buy my company. And I talk about this, I go home and I'm sat here and then I'm thinking, but then what? Like, I'm going to give up my like, because I was, I was trying to, I was trying to make it survive. Like, and someone comes along and says, we'll give you X tens of millions. And, you know, I'm 25 and I'm thinking,

but then what am I gonna do with my life? And I'm trading off my purpose for this big pile of cash, which isn't gonna give me purpose. So I had a bit of an existential crisis there of figuring out what my actual why was. And I don't think it was much, I felt like life was much easier before that when my clear Maslowian objectives were like food water

shelter not self-actualization yeah that's a really crazy thing that when you make people comfortable and free you give them an existential crisis yeah yeah it's you like trade physical hardship for emotional mental hardship and uh and obviously I think most of us would choose the emotional, mental hardship over the physical hardship. Uh, but it's funny. I mean, I had a very similar experience after Subtle Art took off. Um, you know, I had massive royalty checks start coming in and, you know, for like 10 years before that, my big goal in life was like, I want to be a bestselling author. I want to like, I want to be one of the most popular authors and bloggers in the world, you know? And then it happens and all this money shows up and it really fucked with me.

And it's funny because I've talked about this in a few interviews and it usually like they have no idea what i'm talking like it's one of those things like you feel like such an ass for saying you're talking about it because it's people just like yeah yeah fuck you like yeah like i'll take that problem any day but it's true but it's um anti-climax miserable yeah i just honestly i just kind of sat on the couch and played a lot of video games because I'm like, well, what now? Like any book I write is not going to, you know, so that's not super exciting. All like grinding on my internet business, which I had been doing for seven or eight years up to that point. It's like suddenly like I've

got more money than I ever expected. So it's like, okay, I don't need to grind that hard anymore. So what do I do? Like what, what am I really doing? Again, it comes back to like earning that why, like I really had to ask, like, what am I really doing this for? Like, I obviously, I believe in the message of the book and everything but again like like you you kind of alluded to like when you're coming up it's it's very exciting and it's very it's very easy to know what you're gunning for like you've got the north star yeah orientation and you've got nothing to lose right you know it's, it's like business fails, whatever. Like I started broke, I'll be broke again.

Like, you know, like let's make it happen. But then once you get there and you're like, shit, I've got contracts, I've got an agent, I've got an audience, I've got a team. Suddenly like there's a lot to lose and it's, and it, and it, and it becomes, uh, it becomes a lot harder to know, like, what are you gunning for? You know, like what, what are you, what's the next mountaintop? Right. Was that a low moment for you psychologically?

Strangely. Yeah. Yeah. I, I actually, the, the year after Subtle Art came out was probably the most depressed I've been since I was a teenager. Um, and yeah, it's, you know, there were a few people in my life that I could talk to about it and, and, and understood. Um, but so here's the funny thing. Again, you, you feel like such an ass ass. It's like you're literally experiencing the most success of your entire career and you feel so aimless and lost. And I remember the first person I came across, I've got a friend in New York who was a co-founder of a unicorn startup. And I remember he was the first person I mentioned it to. And he was like, well, yeah, of course. You know, and he was like, every founder has this. Like it happens all the time. And then the other group of people that I found that understood, I did some podcasts with some famous comedians. And every single one of them was like, of course, dude.

Like every comedian who gets their first special, they're like the year after is like the worst year of their life. I completely get it. I struggled with understanding why. Am I ungrateful? Yeah, right. But that's really fascinating. I don't think it's not something that I knew about you,

but it's, of course, if I'd really thought about it, I would have been able to guess that that wouldn't have been. Yeah, I think part of it too is the velocity of success. Yeah. I think if it, if it had happened more gradually, because like my online business, right? Like my online business basically grew like 10, 20% a year for like eight years straight. So it ended up being a, making a lot of money and being, but it was each year was like 20% better than the last year. So it's like my

mind had time to adjust, but then this comes along and sunlight, suddenly you're like, you know, 500 X-ing or 200 X-ing whatever you were at before. And, uh, and like your brain just can't keep up. Like it's. How did you like recalibrate and come out the other end? And how did you kind of readjust your thinking to say, okay, we're going to strive for things now. We know that it might not reach the meteoric success of this, but there's another, you know, set of foundations that way. It's funny. So the,

the, the next book, everything is fucked was very much motivated by all this, you know? So, so it's the core thesis that we just talked about and everything is fucked is like, what is it about being comfortable and affluent that like,

fucks with you? Yeah. Makes us so like neurotic, you know? And it's cause I was going through that. So that it's like, I've always written the books that I need to read. Um, and so everything is fucked was exactly kind of what I needed to read. There's a lot of like just subtle mental adjustments, you know, again, like realizing that I can say no to a lot of this stuff. Like it took me like a year or two two to realize like I don't have to accept all these speaking gigs like you know I'm tired I'm

like I'm exhausted like I don't have to say yes I don't need the money like it you could start saying no to this stuff um you know that it took a think for me, it was, it was, you know, so much of my identity and I actually didn't realize this until, till the pandemic. But like so much of my identity was kind of wrapped up in like being the upstart internet blogger who's kind of like, you know, overcoming, you know, somehow overcomes the odds and becomes this huge bestselling author. Like a big part of my identity was wrapped up in that. And I realized that, that holding onto that was not helpful. It was actually kind of, that was a big part of what was making me miserable. And so letting go of that and just kind of accepting like, okay, I'm an author now, but you know, maybe I won't be forever or

yeah, I'm an internet entrepreneur, but maybe I won't be forever. Like, you know, it doesn't, you know, your label. Exactly. Like I can go do anything that I want. Like I'm not like beholden to this narrow lane that I lived in for so long. And so kind of coming to that realization was actually very, very helpful. So two points there then, you talked about finding your new why,

coming out of that. And the other point was about learning to say no. Let's start first then with learning how to say no. You're in a phase of your life now where you're between projects yeah right um you've been working very hard for a long period of time as you said before we start recording six years and so so how do you thought so six years of working very very hard your projects have been ticked off obviously you're in the uk on your press run will's books coming out which you've just written so how does how do you approach switching off and that phase of being in between work, you know, in a culture and amongst the narrative where you should always be climbing and working,

or for some reason that feels like it's connected to our sense of worth, right? In society, if we're not working and we're not striving. Yeah, I think, so the kind of that hustle culture, right? Like I think there is value in that. Like I'm extremely grateful that I did learn the work really, really hard, like ridiculously hard. I think that's a very valuable life skill. And for people who are young or starting out

or starting their business, like I think it's incredibly valuable to learn that and to cultivate that. become compulsive about work and, and also develop kind of a, a, a, this irrational belief that like, if you stop, it's all going to disappear. You know, it's like, oh, if I take a week off, like all the traffic's going to go away and the book sales are going to stop. And it's, it's completely irrational, but like, it's when you're caught up in that, that constant hustling and striving like that Like that's what it feels like. To me, I finally hit a point about midway through this year that I had no major project.

Like the Will book was done. I just did a documentary in New Zealand like that. Like all the shooting for that was done. And then my next book isn't due to Harper for another year or two. And originally I was going to start writing that immediately, but then I took a couple of weeks off and I'm like, oh my God, this is so good.

Like, this is so good. And so I decided to kind of just take the rest of the year off from any major project and just kind of basically work kind of part-time and manage my online team. And it's been wonderful. And it um, and it's been wonderful. Like it's, and it's, the world doesn't collapse and it's, it's been so recharging for me, not just like in terms of energy, but creativity. Um, and then also kind of this identity piece that I was referring to, like, it's only by getting distance from something that you're

able to disidentify from it. Like, you know, when, if you're working on something 12 hours a day, you're going to identify with it. Like it's impossible not to, but then when you pull back, you're actually able to sit there and kind of ask yourself, like, do I want to be an author forever? Do I want to have an internet business forever? Uh, do I want to go, you know, do I want to start doing more celebrity memoirs? Do I want to try to work in film? Like what, what do I want to do? Like, what's the next why? And I think this is like a really important point that doesn't get talked about enough is that like your, what you, like, there's not this, this predetermined why out there that just exists forever. Like your why is always changing.

You know, my, my why when I was 25 was get laid, make money and get laid. And, uh, you know, and then my why in, in my thirties was, was, you know, become a big author and super successful and get a lot of attention and accolades. And, and I'm realizing that like my why in my forties is probably going to be something else. And that's not only is that okay, but that's actually exciting now. What is it? I don't know. I don't know. Suspicions? I really, I really, so here's the thing.

After Subtle Art, I kind of lost my why, but I freaked out. Like it terrified me because I think I was still in that mindset of like, this could go away at any moment, you know? And now I'm at a place where I'm like, no, no, no, like I'm good. You know, it helps that the book is still selling really well, you know, four or five years later, the will book is doing super well, you know? So it's like, I'm good. Like this phase of my career is solidified. And as soon as I kind of like became confident in that, the why question went from being scary to just exciting. It's like, I get to go play. Like I can just screw around. Like I can spend a week just like screwing around with crypto and like nobody can tell me not to like it's it's and

it's like is this a thing i don't know maybe it will be maybe it won't you know or i can um i can screw around with like with a screenplay i feel like i'm like a kid in a sandbox you know so interesting that you've got to that point where you can have freedom without a sense of meaninglessness yeah whereas which is really interesting and maybe that's because you have got some projects in the future you do have a book coming up i do have another book yeah um but i'm trying to understand what what what's got you to the place where you can now have the freedom without it being disorientating and i. I think the thing that changed honestly is the confidence that I can do it again. You know, it's, I think one of my deep seated fears when subtle art blew up was like, this is a fluke. I got lucky. So as a result of that,

so much of my motivation was like, don't lose it, right? Like keep fighting, keep posting online, keep writing newsletters, keep the books coming, like promote the shit out of them. You know, we don't want to lose this. And then I think I kind of hit a point where I'm like, I don't need to fight for it anymore. Like it's not going to go away. You know, I earned it. It's going to stick around. I don't need to fight for it anymore. Like it's not gonna go away. You know, I earned it. It's gonna stick around. I don't need to fight for this forever.

The fear is gone. And so, and then once that happened, yeah, I just, it stopped being about trying to hold on to what I have. And it became much more of just like, oh, there's a freedom here, you know? And I could go do some amazing stuff, especially now I have resources and

connections and all this stuff. Like I, like there are a lot of great opportunities that could happen in front of me. And so now it, now it's, it's actually just excitement. Um, yeah. So we just have a tradition. The previous guest leaves a question for the next guest. Okay. Our last guest wrote for you. Yeah. What is your favorite quote? My favorite quote is from David Foster Wallace. He said, you'll stop worrying so much what other people think of you

when you realize how seldom they do. It's kind of dark, but also liberating. And it requires no explanation because it's so interlinked to what we've been talking about. Thank you so much for your time today. Your books have been so refreshing in this space because they're so real. They're so multifaceted and nuanced and they present a different perspective on self-help and personal development, which is not often conveyed in a lot of the books that i've read so your book i think was just your your the subtle art book was such a smash hit because it was so um refreshingly uniquely um challenging in so many fundamental ways and your next book is actually my favorite your book after that about hope and about meaning was so from the narratives that we share was so on the money for me because it answered a lot of those

fundamental questions about meaning and the need for struggle which again people in our society don't appreciate the need for struggle the work you're doing is amazing and your new book with will um is is more of the same and i can't wait to to get stuck into that book as well thank you for for your time today honestly you're one of the people in my life that i genuinely was so excited about meeting because because of those um common narratives and yeah you're doing a real service to our society so thanks thank you appreciate that thanks Bye.