The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett - The Vegan Dr: The Truth About The Vegan Diet, "Eggs Are Making You Fat", "Stop Eating Cheese!" - Neal Barnard

Episode Date: February 5, 2024

Could it be that what you eat is just as important as the medicines and pills you take? Dr Neal Barnard is the founder and president of the Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine, and has authored more than 100 scientific publications and 20 books. He is also the Adjunct Associate Professor of Medicine at the George Washington University School of Medicine. In this conversation Neal and Steven discuss topics, such as the only supplement you need, the no.1 food associated with weight loss, the dangers of drinking milk for men, and how to reverse erectile dysfunction. (00:00) Intro (01:35) What good do you hope your work is doing for people? (02:13) What is the state of human health currently? (03:33) Why do you care about human health? (06:40) Your first experience of realising human health is in a bad place (08:22) Why calories in vs. calories out doesn’t work (11:55) The truth about eating bread (15:18) If we don't eat meat, where do we get our protein? (18:27) How do we know the vegan diet is good for us vs. another one? (21:57) Don’t we have to supplement if we’re vegan? (25:22) A balanced diet with meat and plants, does that work? (28:34) Veganism is a diet for the privileged... (31:06) The power foods we should all be eating (38:54) Do you not just think you have a bias towards the vegan diet? (40:22) The shocking truth about dairy products (46:25) Drinking milk reduces sperm counts (48:28) The carnivore diet, isn’t that just as good? (52:45) The weight loss foods you need to start eating (1:01:03) Why we need to understand how to balance our hormones (1:05:20) Fertility issues have a strong connection to our weight (1:17:02) Ads (1:19:02) Power foods for the brain (1:26:27) How to prevent dementia (1:35:03) Metals, what should we be getting and what's toxic (1:38:53) Your closing message (1:40:05) The last guest’s question You can pre-order Neal’s book, ‘The Power Foods Diet’, here: https://amzn.to/3SImJSP Follow Neal Twitter - https://bit.ly/483rxGX Instagram - https://bit.ly/47W8ZIA Get tickets to The Business & Life Speaking Tour: https://stevenbartlett.com/tour/ Follow me: https://beacons.ai/diaryofaceo Sponsors: Huel: https://g2ul0.app.link/G4RjcdKNKsb Shopify: http://shopify.com/bartlett Whoop: https://join.whoop.com/en-uk/CEO

Quick one. Just wanted to say a big thank you to three people very quickly. First people I want to say thank you to is all of you that listen to the show. Never in my wildest dreams is all I can say. Never in my wildest dreams did I think I'd start a podcast in my kitchen and that it would expand all over the world as it has done. And we've now opened our first studio in America, thanks to my very helpful team led by Jack on the production side of things. So thank you to Jack and the team for building out the new American studio. And thirdly to to Amazon Music, who when they heard that we were expanding to the United States, and I'd be recording a lot more over in the States, they put a massive billboard in Times Square for the show. So thank you so much, Amazon Music. Thank you to our team. And

thank you to all of you that listened to this show. Let's continue. I love cheese. Well, men who consume the most cheese have the lowest sperm count and erectile dysfunction. Oh, shh. Dr. Neil Bernard, one of America's leading advocates for health, nutrition. A legend in the plant-based world. People need to understand this. Getting away from animal products is always a good idea. Because once you ban animal foods, not only do you solve the weight issue without counting calories, without reducing carbs, without even exercising, but also their health problems get better. But health experts

say it's okay to have a little bit of animal proteins. Great idea, it doesn't work. And there are grippy people that just eat meat alone. Well, it's a ludicrous diet. It's very fiber deficient. How do you take on the idea that veganism is a diet for the privileged? We did a study and the average person saved 16% plus the fact their need for medications come down. So for example, we had a man who came into our study. He had diabetes. So we put him on the plant-based diet. After about a year, he'd lost 60 pounds and he could go into any clinic in the world and they would not diagnose him as having diabetes. But how do we know in that case that a Mediterranean diet wouldn't have had the same

reversing effect on his diabetes? You just don't get the same result. But this was extremely controversial. The most controversial of all, though, is eggs. You can come for everything else, but coming for eggs is particularly triggering. Well, eggs have lots of issues. The first is, and even the studies done by the egg industry do show this. Dr. Neil Barnard, the work you've committed your life to, what good do you hope that it's doing for everyday people in their day-to-day lives?

Right now, unfortunately, people are not well. They're not where they want to be. By age 30 or so, people feel like their life is starting to slip away. They're gaining weight they don't want to have. Their cholesterol is going up. They're on medications that they know they're never going to get off of. And perhaps worst of all, they tend to hand this same fate to the next generation. And that's something that not only has to stop, but it can stop. The body can heal. We know how to do it. The job is to put it

to work. When you look back over, I don't know, 50, 100 years, what are the key sort of health outcomes that have really changed? And how does that correlate to the way that the world has changed and our sort of consumption habits have changed? Economics has changed everything. If you look, say, at rural Japan, 1950s, the country had a diet that was not entirely plant-based, but it was a rice-based diet, lots of vegetables, no ice cream. This was not the Velveeta culture. And some meat, but not really very much. And then suddenly the Golden Arches arrived in Tokyo. The Golden Arches. McDonald's, Burger King, KFC, the country westernized, breast cancer doubled. Really? Diabetes went way, way up. Waistlines expanded. Life expectancy went from longest in the world, just it's still better than many other places,

but it has declined and declined and declined, despite having more knowledge than ever before. The westernization of the diet has been a killer worldwide. You see it in Japan, you see it now in China. As economics are changing in China, there's more wealth, there is more cardiovascular disease. And you know who's on the wires outside of town looking down like buzzards? It's the pharmaceutical industry. Because if you eat more pork and your cholesterol goes up, I can sell you more statins. And that is the way, that's the world we live in. That can change. Why do you care? Of all the things you could have committed your life to, was there a catalyst moment where suddenly this became your mission? Was there something you saw, something you did, or an experience you had? The year before I went to medical school, I was working in a hospital in Minneapolis. And I didn't have a very glamorous job. I was the morgue attendant. And so my job was to take the body out of the cooler and put it on a table and assist the

pathologist to do an autopsy to determine the cause of death. There was one day, there was a man who died in the hospital of a massive heart attack, probably from eating hospital food, but that's another story. And the body was there and the pathologist took out his scalpel and you make a Y-shaped cut across the skin like this. You peel back the skin. And then he took what looked like a garden clipper and went crunch, crunch, crunch through the ribs on this side and crunch, crunch, crunch through this side, pulled the ribs off the chest and put the ribs on the table. So he took his scalpel and he sliced through a coronary artery. And it was like a medical lecture. They're called coronary arteries because they crown the heart.

And as he sliced it open, he said, feel that. I had gloves on. So I felt inside the artery. And you would think a coronary artery would be a rubbery tube that would carry blood to your heart. It was like a pipe stem. It was like concrete. It was hard. And he said, that's calcified atherosclerotic lesions. And this is your bacon and eggs, Neil. And what he meant was cholesterol

in the diet causes an irritation of that artery wall, and it forms what's kind of like a blister in the artery, and it calcifies over time. And what was most worrisome was not that this had attacked the heart, but we then looked at the carotids. Those are the arteries going to the brain. They had the same process, meaning if he hadn't died of a heart attack, he was headed for a stroke. And the arteries to the kidneys had the same process. He finished the exam, wrote up his findings, systemic atherosclerosis. And as time went on, I then went to medical school and I started to learn about the connections.

What does cholesterol do? Whereas cholesterol found it's only in animal products. And I started to reflect on these things that were culturally normal for us. And we thought that heart attacks were culturally normal. You're old, you know, 60s old, you're going to have a heart attack. This is just the way it is. Alzheimer's, you're likely to get all these diseases. And I suddenly realized that if we can truly connect what we're eating with the things that happen to our body, it gives us the most frightening lesson ever, but the most empowering lesson, because we can change that. My mission is to take that knowledge, hand it to people in a form that

they can use, and encourage them to spread the word in turn, hopefully to the next generation. If not, all we're spreading to the next generation is our own bad habits. We're going to go through all of that. We're going to go through the diets. You've got a new book out, which talks about the perfect sort of diet for weight loss. And it says the breakthrough plan that traps, tames, and burns calories for easy and permanent weight loss. We're going to go through that as well. From that moment in the morgue until you sit here now, what is your sort of academic and your, I guess, your experience with doing studies and being exposed to research and data? What is that? Give me an overview of what you've done. We were, it really started with, I was approached by a foundation that funded diabetes research. We ended up executing a small study where we used a very different diet

from what had been used. It was more modeled after the diet of countries that don't have much diabetes, like Japan before westernization, for example. Very successful. We found that people were losing weight easily without counting calories, without reducing carbs, without even exercising, much as I love exercise. Then we did another study on people who wanted to lose weight.

The participants were women, all at the age of menopause and after. They had all done Jenny Craig and Nutrisystem and Atkins and South Beach and everything. And they all had initial success followed by frustration, followed by blaming myself, that kind of thing. And what we said is, let's not do that. Let's use the same kind of diet we're using for diabetes, which in a nutshell, plant-based diet, animal products gone, keeping oils really low, but not limiting spaghetti or carbohydrates in general, not limiting calories.

And what we found is that people lost weight really easily, but more than that, their metabolism started to ramp up. So they're 50 years old or 60 years old, but they're burning calories more like they were burning when they were 30. When people think about weight loss at the moment, you used a word, they use the word calories. There's a, you know, a prevalent school of thought that says you just need to count the calories you're having. For men, it's about 2000 calories if you're sort of my age and my weight. And as long as you have less than that, you'll lose weight. That's kind of the top line school of thought. How do you receive that? It's true that we're not going to reinvent the laws of thermodynamics.

I mean, if you take in fewer calories, you lose weight. The problem is if you voluntarily try to eat less than your body normally wants, by Wednesday, you're ready to eat the sofa. It's just not going to work for you. I have to tell you, in every hospital, not only in the United States, but everywhere else, people will sit down with somebody who wants to lose weight or who wants to tackle their diabetes and they'll say, you just need to eat less. Here's a menu. It adds up to 500 calories less than before. You stick to this and you lose weight. Well, the patient can't do that. You just can't be hungry forever. Your brain says, you can't be doing this. I'm starving. And everybody's had that experience. And so then what happens? You blame the patient. The patient blames himself or herself.

And I say, stop. How can I, without knowing it, reduce the calories that come in? And the answer is really simple. The answer is change the quality of the food, not the amount. Stop worrying about the amount. If for 21 days, a person didn't experiment with me,

and I said, for 21 days, no animal products at all. Okay, so I'm at an Italian restaurant, spaghetti, not with meat sauce, but with tomato sauce, bean burrito instead of the meat burrito. You're not limiting the amount of food. You are just changing the type. Suddenly the weight kicks in. The weight loss kicks in, the weight loss kicks in. People start losing weight and losing weight and losing weight. Why? Because once you ban animal foods, which have zero fiber, pork chops don't have fiber, cheese has no fiber, eggs have no fiber. Then suddenly everything you're eating has fiber. What does that matter? Fiber is this boring word, puts everybody to sleep, but fiber is big stuff because fiber does two things. It has almost no calories, so it fills you up and it makes you

think you had a huge amount of food. The other thing it does is as it goes down your digestive tract, researchers at Tufts University tracked what happens. 2017 study, they brought in individuals and put them on a diet either with high fiber foods, whole grain bread, compare it to just white bread. It's the same thing, but one has all the fiber, one doesn't. And what they discovered is that the people on the whole grain bread, they were excreting calories. What happens is the fiber goes down your digestive tract. It finds unabsorbed calories and it carries them out with the waste. You ate the calories, but you didn't absorb them. You flushed them down the toilet. Now, it's not huge. The effect of just that change was about

100 calories per day. That's about a half a soda you're not having, but that's 36,000 calories a year from just that one change. So if we aren't eating animal products, everything we have is fiber, that tames the appetite, you're going to lose weight naturally. What we find is that if I can help people to focus on the type of food they eat and learn to love foods that are better than the spam we grew up with, what you're going to discover is that not only do you solve the weight issue, people can lose weight very rapidly and very easily without going hungry and even without exercise, much as I love exercise, but also their health problems get better.

Just to pause there for a second, because there's something going on in my sort of dietary world at the moment that I want to get your opinion on. You mentioned whole grain bread versus white bread. There's now all of these breads on the shelf. When I go to the hotels and you have the little breakfast bars, there's the sourdough, there's the rye, there's the white bread, there's the whole grain bread. And I'm so confused by which bread I should be having. I'm pretty sure not the white one, but I don't really know about these others. So which bread is highest in fiber and best for my health? Well, they all beat the heck out of chicken, fish, meat, eggs. Bread is always better. Yes, it is.

Then chicken. Completely. Chicken breast. Take the skin off it, it's still 23% fat as a percentage of calories. Yes. And why is that a problem? I eat a lot of chicken breast, you know. Well, every fat gram has nine calories going right into our body fat that we didn't want.

Every carbohydrate gram has only four. So those numbers, I want people to tattoo those numbers on their forearm. Because all the people who think carbs make them fat, they should realize carbohydrate, no matter what form it's in, bread, potatoes, pure sugar, carbohydrate has only four calories in a gram. But on the other hand, if I have fat, any form, chicken fat, fish fat, olive oil straight from Tuscany, it's got nine calories in every gram. And a person can say, well, it's gotta be good fat,

isn't it? Sometimes it may be like olive oil, but it's still gonna be fattening for you. We did a study. We brought in 62 people. They all wanted to lose weight. Half of them went on a low-fat vegan diet. They lost weight really very easily. The other half began a Mediterranean diet, which they thought, great, this is indulgent. I'll be able to have fish and some chicken and a little bit of cheese here and there and some extra virgin olive oil.

How wonderful. And the foods are wonderful, except that by about week three, the participants were saying, well, when does the weight loss start? The fact is it doesn't happen with a Mediterranean diet because the fish fat, the chicken fat, whatever beef fat there may be, and all that olive oil is so packed with calories, it slows down or stops the weight loss. After 16 weeks, everybody stopped. They switched to the opposite diet. The people who had been going Mediterranean now did the plant-based diet, and they start losing weight like crazy. And they said, well, why didn't you give me this before? The people who had been doing the vegan diet, by 16 weeks, they were totally accommodated to it.

I know how to eat at Taco Bell now. I know how to ask for the bean burrito and whatever. We asked them to begin the Mediterranean diet. And they said, well, first of all, I don't want to. I've lost my taste for cheese. I don't care about that anymore. We said, this is science. Please do begin the diet. And they got angry.

We met with everybody every week. And they were about to walk out because the scale was getting worse week by week by week because we'd reintroduced chicken and fish and oil and all these kinds of things. This was published in the Journal of the American College of Nutrition, and it just won an award for the best article of the year by the American Nutrition Association. The point being that if you focus not on how much you eat, but if you focus on the types of foods you eat, you get the answer, which is you can satisfy the appetite

without counting calories. You don't have to blame yourself. There will still be all kinds of things that will attract you. There will be cravings and so forth, but we can deal with all that. Obviously, when people talk about the vegan diet, there's lots of popular rebuttals.

One of them is about supplementation, about protein levels, about vitamin B12, about omega-3. You know these rebuttals because they're very popular. So how do you take on the idea that, you know, if I'm not eating chicken at all, where am I getting my protein, my B12 from, my omega-3 from in my diet? And if I have to supplement any of these things, is that evidence that it's unnatural for me to be eating a vegan-based diet? Okay, that's a critically important question. But before I answer that, let me go back to why would anybody want to do this? And this is really important because the issues of supplementation are super easy to answer. The issue of why do you want to do it?

For me, this was answered about a year into our NIH trial. We had a man who came into our study. He was 35. He'd had diabetes for four years. And he said, I need help. He told me his grandmother had had diabetes. His grandfather had diabetes. His father was dead by 30. He said that, you know, if I don't get this together,

I'm going to check out early. And on the way, I'm going to be on dialysis. I'm going to lose a leg. That's what it meant to him. So we put him on the plant-based diet. And about two weeks into it, he said, easiest diet I've ever been on. And that kind of surprised me because people imagine vegan to be hard.

And he said, no, it was super easy. Previous diets that I've been on told me I had to count my calories. And I was hungry all the time. After about a year, he had lost 60 pounds without ever limiting calories at all. He had gotten his A1C from nine and a half down to 5.3. 5.3 is not diabetes. 5.3 is not pre-diabetes. It's normal.

And when I got his lab slip, I have to tell you, I closed my office door and I paced around for about 10 minutes to try to decide, can I tell him that his diabetes has been cured? This was extremely controversial. You can't tell a person their diabetes is gone. Once you have diabetes, you'll always have diabetes. That's what everyone said. And people said that with good reason, because they wanted you to take your medicine, test yourself. Don't mess around with this,

because diabetes will kill you. And that was well-meaning advice. But here was a man who didn't have diabetes based on diet changes. We can laugh about it now because we see it all the time. Diabetes is a reversible disease. And everything that goes along with it is reversible as well. So then that brings the issue up of how do you answer all the questions that people will raise, like where do you get your protein and what about B12? But, but those are, those are quite easy to answer. So how do we, how do we know in that case that that guy wasn't eating a ton of sort of ultra processed foods of McDonald's and all of those things? And that a Mediterranean diet, for example, wouldn't have had the same reverse same reversing effect on his diabetes?

Well, let me be clear for what we know and what we believe. What we know is that this man had a result that just hasn't happened before. And it was really remarkable. We've seen this over and over and over again. And when we bring people in who have diabetes and we put them on a Mediterranean diet or something like that, you just don't get the same result in a randomized clinical trial. But we've gone further. We've looked at why is it that this diet is working?

Processed foods are not the cause of diabetes. Eating sugar is not the cause of diabetes. Eating carbohydrate and potatoes and rice, that is not the cause of diabetes. I'm not saying there aren't health issues about all these foods, there that is not the cause of diabetes. I'm not saying there aren't health issues about all these foods, there are. But the cause of diabetes is something that has been clear in science for two decades, and nobody can get this through their thought process. You can say thick skulls, I know you were pausing.

I'm not only talking about the lay public, I'm talking about doctors. There are many doctors who have somehow gotten their medical degrees, never understanding the cause of type 2 diabetes, and here's what it is. This is a muscle cell, your muscle, a muscle in your shoulder. If I take a needle in your shoulder, I stick a needle in, I pull a muscle cell out. It's this long oval. Its favorite fuel is glucose. That's why marathon runners are carbo-loading. That glucose gets into the cell and it powers it. But the problem is the cell membrane keeps that glucose out, will not let it in until insulin, the insulin key made in your pancreas, arrives at the surface of that cell, opens the door, in goes the glucose. Now, everything's going fine. My pancreas is

making insulin. It's letting the glucose in the cell. Things are going great. You eat chicken. Your body takes that 23% fat in the skinless chicken breast and takes some of that chicken fat, sticks it inside the muscle cell. Fish fat, beef fat, cheese fat. Cheese is loaded with fat. And that fat gets inside the muscles. Now, doctors hate words like fat because it only has three letters. So we'll call it intramyocellular lipid. But it's fat inside a muscle cell. Same thing happens in your liver.

So that's hepatocellular lipid. The fat is getting into your liver cells. The fat is building up in your muscle cells. It came from the food choices we thought were healthy. French fries. Your body pulls out that fat, packs it in the muscle cell. Now the insulin key comes along, attaches to the surface of the cell. The cell is now filled with fat. It's just like going home, sticking your key in your front door lock that somebody jammed with chewing gum. Key doesn't work anymore. Okay, so what do we do?

I will say, let's take the animal products out of your diet. There's now zero animal fat in your diet. Let's keep oils really low too. So baked potato instead of the chips. Okay. No fat in it. Great. What happens, and I can show this to you with magnetic resonance spectroscopy, I can look inside your body. That fat starts to dissipate. And as the fat comes, I'm not talking about belly fat, that dissipates too. But what I'm targeting now is the fat inside each muscle cell and each liver cell. As it comes apart, it leaves, then the insulin key can work again. And I've reversed your insulin resistance and I'm reversing your diabetes. And that's why now the blood sugar can get through that membrane very easily. That's why this man's diabetes went away. We didn't give him a new insulin prescription.

We got the fat out of his muscle cells, got the fat out of his liver cells, and suddenly his body said, I'll take it from here. So let's talk about the supplementation point then. People that are vegan, my partner was vegan for some time. She had a lot of sort of health complications with it. So I've got a little bit of a sort of clouded opinion around that. And again, when I talk about my partner, she was vegan for two years. I tried for two weeks. I struggled. Long story. But she was vegan for two years. In her words, and she shared this publicly, she gained weight. She had issues with her menstrual cycle and lots of other consequences. And she now points to the two years being vegan for both those outcomes. She had to supplement B12 throughout that process as well because

she wasn't getting it naturally in her vegan diet in Bali. So what do you say to the point of supplementation that we were talking about a second ago? Vitamin B12 is the only thing that you do need to supplement. And people following a plant-based diet definitely should be supplementing vitamin B12. But B12 is not made by animals and it's not made by plants. B12 is made by bacteria. And so people will speculate that prior to the advent of

modern hygiene, the traces of bacteria in the soil or on plants we would pull out or frankly on our fingers or in our mouths would give you the tiny amount that you need. You need 2.4 micrograms per day. You need it for healthy nerves and healthy blood. And you will get B12 from meat because the cow's intestinal tract has bacteria that make B12. But some people don't absorb that very well because the B12 in meat is tightly adhered to the protein. And some people can't really remove it very well, particularly if you're over 50 or you're on certain medications. But you need B12. But when it comes to overall nutrition, a meat-based diet is the most efficient diet of all. It's much worse than any other kind of diet because meat doesn't have the vitamins that are in vegetables and in fruits. There's not a gram

of vitamin C. There is zero fiber. There's no complex carbohydrate at all. Now your cat can be a mediator because cats make their own vitamin C. They say, I don't need it. But we are not cats. We're not carnivores at all. Whether we like it or not, we're great apes. So our cousins are chimpanzees and gorillas and bonobos and orangutans, and they are never eating dairy at all. They are mostly or exclusively herbivores. So that's our natural diet. Those are our great ancestors. Do any of them eat meat? Some do, not all. Okay. And going back to your point about vitamin B12, you were saying, just so I'm clear,

that we historically would have got that from our less sanitary environment by our ancestors pulling up leaves and eating some of the soil in the process and those kinds of things. Is that what you're saying? Well, that's one possibility. And the other possibility is frankly, that we could absorb our own B12. Your digestive tract makes B12. But the question is how absorbable really is it? And most people believe, and I think it's quite possible, that it's produced too low down by the gut microbiome to really be efficiently absorbed. So either way, my suggestion is I wouldn't worry about it. You just take B12. It's in every multiple vitamin you ever took, and it's at the store, and you would just take it. And that way, there's no worry.

The health experts, the nutritionists that I speak to on this podcast, I would say agree with what you're saying by about 90, 95, 90%. They, you know, thinking through what they've told me in private and on the show, they say you want predominantly plants on the plate, you know, fruit and veg and all that stuff.

And then it's okay to have a little bit of animal proteins as well on that. So like a little bit of chicken breast, for example, is okay. And that as a balancing act gives you what we sort of a nutritionally complete diet. What's your thoughts on that? Great idea. It doesn't work. It's a little bit like the person who comes in to see me in the clinic and they've got a chronic cough. They said, doc, I've had this cough for months now. I said, well, maybe it's time that we do stop smoking. And they say, all right, doc, I'll stop. So they come in a week later and say, I'm still coughing. Well, did you stop smoking? Well, almost completely. I'm only having maybe two cigarettes a day. I said, well, let's just cut it out completely. And things get dramatically better.

So by analogy, when a person comes in, they've got a high cholesterol level or they got weight they can't lose. And they're sort of 90% vegan. That last 10%, you know, really makes such a huge difference. And it makes a difference in a couple of ways. And by the way, I'm not encouraging people to take this on faith. If you just try it, you'll discover that when a person really gets the animal products out of their life, first of all, the physical benefits are dramatically better. A person who follows a plant-based diet on average is 35 pounds leaner than the typical meat-eating American. Or put it the other way, your average meat-eating American is 35 pounds heavier than the typical not very careful vegan. So it's a big difference.

But beyond that, let's say I'm trying to follow mostly a plant-based diet, but once in a while I'll have some meat. What that does is that reawakens the neural circuitry for those addictive things. It's sort of like a smoker who decides at parties I'll smoke. What you're doing is you're never able to forget the taste of it. So it's a good idea to just, if something doesn't love you back, just get rid of it. But because that sounds like a heavy load, what I say to people is this, and the way we do it in our studies, take the first week and your goal is just to lose some weight. You want to be able to see your abs again, whatever it is. You want to get off insulin. You want to feel better. Here are the studies that prove that it

works. And then we sit down with the patient and his reluctant spouse, and they'll kind of map out what they're going to have for breakfast and for lunch and for dinner. And then they just think about it for about a week. They try the foods and they figure out the ones that really work. Great. Now we're going do a three week test drive. And people at home should do this. 21 days, you can do anything for 21 days. And you've already made your list of the foods that you like.

At the end of 21 days, number one, physically you are a different person. You're losing that weight without calorie counting, without ramping up your exercise. People are noticing the difference in you. But apart from the physical changes, your tastes are changing. You're discovering new things that you didn't have before. And better than that, you're forgetting the things that didn't love you back. One of our former guests, Giles Yeo, made a comment that veganism is a diet for the privileged.

And he doesn't like how vegans make other people feel bad when they are just trying to support their kids. And I think there is a train of thought that says being vegan is expensive and it's difficult. And if you're a sort of time poor, financially poor family, how does one become more plant based when you're just trying to think first and foremost about how to get some food in your kids' bellies? That's such an important question because when we feed our children, we're not only nourishing them today, but we're setting in motion the foods that they will eat in the future. You're accommodating the child's tastes to the things you put on the table. So it's essential that they be healthy foods. We did a study that we just published in JAMA Network Open, the American Medical Association's online journal. And we brought in 244 individuals and half of them were asked to continue their current diet. The other half were asked to avoid animal products, keep oils low. It's a healthy vegan diet. And we tracked their weight. And as you can imagine, they lost weight. And we tracked their insulin sensitivity, got better. The things that you would imagine, all the benefits, their cholesterol has improved.

But we also tracked their food expenses. And what we found is that overall, you're spending more on vegetables, you're spending more on fruits, you're spending more on beans and grains, and you're spending nothing on meat, nothing on cheese. Your oils are, you know, you're cooking without them.

And the average person saved 16%. Including the supplementation. Yeah. Yes. B12 is pennies. So the average person's food bill dropped by about 16%. So in America, that means about 500 bucks a year or something like that. So why is that? If a person is low on money, here in this country, we have the SNAP program. We used to be called food stamps. You get a card, you go into the store. The cheapest thing in the store are these little bags of dried beans and the dried rice. And you can get a block of frozen broccoli that's three for a dollar and that kind of thing. And if you go into the back and say, well, I'd like to have some cheese or some meat, that's where the money is. So when a

person's on a plant-based diet, they're going to be saving money. Plus the fact is their need for medications goes way down. They're not at the doctor so much. Now, don't get me wrong. There are places that would love to charge you for asparagus water or some kooky thing. That's not what we're talking about. You have a book coming out called The Power Foods Diet. You can get it everywhere now on Amazon and everywhere you'd find a book. It's this book here in front of me. And you kind of reverse the narrative as it relates to weight loss because you provide a much more positive perspective on how to lose weight. Your book doesn't tell people what they shouldn't be eating. It tells them what they should be eating. And although there's been lots written and said

about weight loss, there is quite a lot of original thoughts and ideas. And there's a huge amount of supporting evidence, which I think really puts your book, um, stands it apart from the crowd. Why did you write this book? Why did you write a book about weight loss? Up until now, the whole idea has been, if I want to lose weight, I have to say no. I have to say no to calories, no to seconds, no to dessert. And I started thinking, wait a minute, there is a huge body of research that allows you to just push that off the table and say yes to certain specific foods that I call them power foods because they do three things. There are certain foods that are appetite tamers. The same reason that people are buying Ozempic and Wagovi, these injections that tame your appetite, food will

do precisely the same thing. That's right. Food releases GLP-1 agonists and will tame your appetite. What is GLP-1? I'm sorry. GLP-1 is a compound made in the intestinal tract. And this is the thing that Novo Nordisk is trying to simulate with its weekly injection. Initially marketed as Ozempic and then marketed under the name Wagovi. In the US, it's been hugely controversial because it does cut down the appetite and people lose weight, but it costs them more than $15,000 a year. And the side effects, nausea, vomiting, diarrhea, feeling terrible. And when you stop, all that weight comes right back. So anyway, it's big, hugely,

very controversial. But what we've discovered is we brought in people, fed them different meals, and found that there are certain foods that cause GLP-1 release naturally that tames your appetite. So there are certain foods that tame your appetite. If you don't know what they are, you're trying to lose weight with one arm tied behind your back. The second thing is that certain foods trap calories in your digestive tract, carry them out so you don't absorb them. And the third and the most fun is that certain foods ramp up your metabolism so that you're burning calories for about three or four or five hours after the meal faster than you were before, which we can measure. And we first published those data back in 2005. The American Journal of Medicine published our results showing that your after-meal metabolism

ramps up, not hugely, but about 15%, something like that. So then again, in about, I think it was 2020, we published this with JAMA Network Open, that they looked at a new group of participants. And the same thing happens, that your metabolism ramps up. But so many people are struggling with weight, blaming themselves. And my answer is, wait a minute, I can make you a wonderful meal and you can lose weight naturally. Let me give you an example. There is a twins registry in the UK, great registry they've got. In this particular study, they looked at not quite 3000 twins, identical twins, same genetics, but then they did DEXA scans. It's a scan that looks not just at body weight. What it looks at is body composition. So how much body fat do you have?

And they discovered that one twin, compared to the other twin, had 9% less abdominal fat if she was the twin eating more anthocyanins. What is that? Anthocyanins is the blue in a blueberry or in a grape. This is nature's painting box and they're powerful antioxidants. And so then at Harvard, researchers looked at, okay, which foods are associated with weight loss? They looked at about 130,000 people in the nurse's health study and the healthals' Follow-Up Study. They track them year after year. And they say, okay, these people are eating more of this food, more of that food. How does that affect their weight change? And this is just an

association. But what they discovered is that people who ate more beans would tend to lose more weight. People who ate more citrus fruit, even fruit juice, would lose more weight. People who ate more melons, watermelons and cantaloupes and things, would lose more weight. People who ate more melons, watermelons and cantaloupes and things would lose more weight. And then green vegetables. But the number one food of all the foods that was associated with the most weight loss was blueberries. Blueberries and all their cousins, like raspberries and so forth, these anthocyanin rich foods. So why the heck is it that people who decide to eat more of these foods and bring them into their diet, why are they losing

weight? Well, okay, if you're eating the blueberries for the dessert, you're not eating the cream custard. Maybe that's part of it. But even when you control for that, you still see the weight loss. And we believe that the reasons are that these are always high-fiber foods. They are always very modest in calories. And there is something about the effect of anthocyanins that may affect either our appetite or more likely our metabolism. On the point of anthocyanins, is the color of the fruit somewhat an indicator of an anthocyanin? Yes, it is, but it can be tricky. Anthocyanins is a huge painting box that nature uses for blueberries for the the red grape that's anthocyanins strawberries are red but it's a different anthocyanin and in october when the

leaves are turning those yellows and reds and golden colors are different anthocyanins now a tomato or a watermelon that bright red is not anthocyanins that's a tomato or a watermelon, that bright red is not anthocyanins, that's lycopene. And that's an antioxidant too, but that's the cousin of beta carotene. So beta carotene is the orange in a carrot, lycopene is the red in a tomato, and the anthocyanins are the purples in the grapes and in the blueberries and so forth. With blueberries, is there a positive impact on memory in the brain with blueberries as well? Very likely. Personally, I think we need more research, but our team and many others have been really excited about this ever since. Researchers at the University of Cincinnati brought in a group of

people. And not just random people off the street, these were people selected because they were way up in years, average age 76, 78, and they already had memory lapses. They had what we call mild cognitive impairment. They gave them a huge infusion of anthocyanins in the form of grape juice, a pint in a day. So maybe a cup in the morning, cup at night. And over three months, they then tracked your ability to retain knowledge and your ability to remember. And what they showed is it was measurably increased over a placebo. And okay, that sounds to me too easy. So they did the study again, and they used a different anthocyanin source. They now used blueberry juice, same result. So I continue to think that, I think it's a good idea to be skeptical um because people want to find

some easy answer to things yeah and was the rest of their diet controlled in those studies in this case no okay so it could have been anything could have been very likely was um so what they're randomized randomized trial and what you do is you take people and you just give them the anthocyanin drink versus a some kind of placebo that looks the. So I do think we need to be careful. And I think industry, you know, you'll have the blueberry industry or the grape juice industry jumping in with money, as the dairy industry has been doing for a long period of time. So I think we should be skeptical. But when you see, for example, our group, we take no money from any food industry group ever for exactly, even healthy foods, we won't take their

money because we want to make sure that we're unbiased in what we find. And you just, you want to look for consistency of findings. Do you ever wonder if you are biased? Because, you know, you've got that experience, that very sort of honestly traumatic experience from that morgue that day, and you end up writing books about these subject matters. It becomes part of your identity. And I even think with myself, like for example, I said about my girlfriend struggling with the vegan diet, that's created a bias in me, hasn't it? Do you ever wonder, or do you ever think about the chance that you might be biased in the way that you look at the data or the data you look at?

Of course. Every good scientist recognizes that bias can enter in any study. We all have biases, and that's why you have to do studies in a careful way. So for example, when I do a study comparing a Mediterranean diet to a vegan diet, I make sure that the Mediterranean diet is taught by dieticians who personally follow a Mediterranean diet themselves. And we'll talk it up. And I hire them for that purpose. And the vegan diet is taught by dietitians who believe in that diet. And then your statistics have to be done blindly by somebody who's not partial.

But everybody has biases. And with tobacco, we went through this. Back in the 50s and 60s, you could say, well, I'm not sure if tobacco really causes lung cancer. And if somebody thought it was, well, you're biased. As today, if somebody does not strongly believe that tobacco causes lung cancer, you're just an idiot. I mean, it clearly does. But that doesn't mean you don't do tobacco research. You do, but you try to set your biases aside. A lot of people will just eat chicken steak because they just think it tastes nicer. I think I'm in that camp. I think I was, you know, whether that's just a nature thing,

you know, I was raised on eating chicken. My mom cooks chicken all the time. I love going to this steak restaurant in London called Flatiron. If you guys want to give me a discount code, I fucking go there all the time. But i just like the taste of it so that's why big part of the reason i eat it and as a young man i want to get as much protein as i can i want to work out i want big strong muscles um i like the taste it helps me grow my muscles you know you can do anything you want you you can However, what you want today is what you ate yesterday. Our tastes can drift very, very readily to foods that we expose ourselves to. So if the past week I've been eating chicken, it's over, that's what we tend to come back to. And that's what we

accommodate to. And that's true for caffeine. That's true for every drug of abuse. That's true for foods that we get hooked on. It's true for cheese more than anything else. People listening to this broadcast are all nodding exactly right now because they're saying, oh, I could be vegan except for the cheese. And that's- I love cheese.

Well, it doesn't love you back, unfortunately. Cheese has, not to divert too much, but cheese is the one food that actually contains narcotics. The casein protein that's in milk comes out of the cow's udder. It digests in the calf's stomach to release what are called casomorphins. They're casein-derived morphine-like compounds. And they go in the calf's blood to the calf's brain. And they attach to receptors, the very same receptor that a narcotic attaches to. So if you drink a glass of milk, the very same thing happens, is that your body takes the casein protein, pulls out the casomorphins that

go to your brain and attach there. But the reason that cheese is more addictive than milk or even ice cream is because when you make cheese, you concentrate the protein and the fat. You remove all the lactose, sugar, and all the whey, and it's just basically casein mixed with fat, and it's basically dairy crack. The big problem here, and for any guy who's thinking, do I want to stop eating dairy? Estradiol, female sex hormones. If your mom has hot flashes and she's taking estradiol to calm her flashes, that female sex hormone is in cheese. It's in milk. The cow makes it.

Cows naturally make estradiol, and so it's in every slice of cheese you ever ate. But it gets worse. To get cheese, you have to milk a cow, and cows normally don't make milk. They make milk only after they've been impregnated. And if you don't mind, let me just walk you through how this happens, because I think it's good for people to be aware of. On every dairy farm everywhere in the world, there's an underpaid guy who takes his left hand and puts a glove on it up to his shoulder, and he sticks his hand into the

cow's rectum, up to his elbow. And he grabs the cow's uterus. You can feel the uterus through the rectal wall. And you hold it steady. And with your right hand, you take what looks like a knitting needle and you jam it into her vagina, right through the cervix, and you inject sperm that you took from a bull. Now she will become impregnated and she will not object because she's chained up by the neck and she can't turn around and stop you. And then you go on to the next one, the next one, the next one. Nine months later after her gestation is finished, she will have a calf, which she didn't volunteer for, but this is now her baby. And she will look at that calf and the calf looks up at mom and all the farm hands gather around because I got to tell you, there's nothing cuter than this big bag of bones of this little calf who was just born. And this is like the first

hour of life. And then they say, well, wait a minute, you know, you don't want that calf to suckle because that milk is what we're going to sell. The milk that's made for her calf, if we're going to sell. So there, we have an implement that solves that problem. And that's made for her calf, we're going to sell. So we have an implement that solves that problem, and that's a wheelbarrow. So you put the calf in a wheelbarrow, and you carry the calf away. Now, the mother-infant bond is the strongest bond we have in nature. She will follow,

and she'll follow effectively in her own bovine way, saying, this is my baby. And then a gate will stop, will hit her in the face, and she will stand right there and cry out. And the calf, if the calf is male, will very soon be killed for veal, because you can't use a male in the dairy industry. And if that calf is female, she will be put in an isolation hutch, fed milk replacer. And when she's about a year old, she'll get a hand up her butt, and she'll be impregnated. Now in nature, a cow lives to be about 20. On a dairy farm, their milk production, although they're impregnated every single year, slacks off by about age four.

And then they are hung up by their leg and they are slit for low-grade beef. So the dairy industry is a meat industry. It just takes you a little while to get there. And every dairy cow is impregnated artificially. They're separated from their calf. And we just kind of put up with this. And during each pregnancy, she is continued to be milked. The estrogen comes down those milking tubes. It gets into this little swimming pool full of milk. When they throw in the rennet, which is this genetically engineered enzyme that makes a clot, then you throw in the bacteria. They give it that funky fermented flavor and people get hooked on this stuff. And you're eating this mixture of estradiol along with a huge amount of fat and these animal proteins that have the casomorphins in them.

And everybody gets hooked on this thing. And your average American eats 77,000 calories of cheese every year. And then they think they got fat from eating bread. It wasn't the bread. It was that hunk of cheese that was in between there that could explain the entire weight problem we have in America. So you're saying also that then men who are drinking the dairy products or eating the dairy products have, there's an implication for their own hormone levels and their own sort of sperm counts, et cetera. Is there any evidence for this, that drinking milk as a man will reduce your sperm count? Exactly. That has been discovered in New York, New York state. Researchers went into a fertility center and

you do sperm counts on men. And when you do a sperm count, what you're looking at is the count, the number of little sperm. You also look at their morphology, meaning their shape and their motility, meaning are they swimming straight? And what they have shown in at least two studies that I'm aware of, that men who consume the most cheese have the lowest sperm counts and the worst mortality and morphology. And the reason, of course, is you're swallowing estrogen every day, but it gets worse than that. When you eat cheese, you're eating something that's three quarters fat. It's really high in calories. And added to your chicken fat and beef fat

and the fat that people get all over the place, you're gaining body weight. And guys are struggling with this and mistakenly blaming carbs and so forth. But as you gain body weight, every fat cell in your body is an estrogen factory. What I mean is your testosterone goes into a fat cell and estrogen comes out.

You have enzymes called aromatase enzymes that take that testosterone from your bloodstream. And the more body fat you have, the more they are reducing your testosterone because they're converting it to estradiol. Is this in part, in your view, why there's been a decline in testosterone in men over the last couple of decades? Without question. I can reduce your testosterone level within a matter of a couple of weeks just by putting you on a cheesy, meaty diet. The more your body fat expands, the more your testosterone level is neutralized. It gets worse. Because there's estrogen in the dairy itself, that adds to the estrogen your body is now making in your body fat. An animal-based diet is

just a recipe for hormone haywire. You know, I have to ask about the carnivore diet, which is, you know, I've had guests on this podcast that weren't health experts were even talking about health or food or nutrition at all, but certain guests, and one in particular, who is on the carnivore diet, because, you know, I also think about Michaela Peterson, who I think is a wonderful person. And she's also on the carnivore diet because, you know, I also think about Michaela Peterson, who I think is a wonderful person. And she's also on the carnivore diet. She had loads of health complications in her life to the point that I think she was virtually disabled at one point, in bed, couldn't move, lots of pain, lots of problems. And then she went on a carnivore only diet, which meant that she eats pretty much only steak with salt and pepper, I believe. Don't want to get that wrong.

And all of her health problems went away. And when you hear about those stories, you go, Jesus, that's incredibly compelling. I'm not saying that that is the correct diet at all because I've sat here with enough nutritionists and health experts to know that there's a general consensus that you want as much plants on your plate as you possibly can with a little bit of protein. They seem to be pretty decided that a little bit of protein they seem to be

pretty decided that a little bit of sort of chicken breast isn't a problem um but there is a school of thought and there are a group of people that just eat meat alone and they seem to be doing okay is there any diets is there any research that has been done on people that are on a carnivore diet that you're aware of? I don't know. I haven't really looked at the carnivore diet very well. It's a ludicrous diet. First of all, it's very fiber deficient. And somebody like that is going to spend hours in the bathroom struggling to go to the bathroom because they're not getting any fiber. So that person goes to the drugstore and they'll get Metamucil, which is a psyllium fiber, which is a seed fiber because they don't want to eat the seeds, but they'll sell you the fiber

to counteract it, you're getting a massive amount of cholesterol. Now, the one thing you could say for it is if a person says, well, I'm chucking out a bunch of just sugar and I'm chucking out the cheese and so forth, and I'm focusing on meat. Well, half of what you're doing is good, is you're getting rid of some other things that were frankly not so good for you. The donuts and things aren't very good, but a meat-based diet is a romantic fantasy. When people think of themselves as hunter-gatherers, we are gatherers first and hunters second. Our nature is not to be racing over the hilltop and capturing an antelope and bringing it back to the applause of our families. That's a romantic notion that people like to pretend. And if you look at human cultures over the millennia, we are clearly designed for and have followed either an exclusively plant-based diet or a mostly plant-based diet. Now, that said, we'll take what we can get. When people don't have tremendous means, if a rabbit comes by and they can capture them in their snare and they'll eat them, they will. Having said that, I have to say, I put this question to Richard Leakey some years ago.

And I asked him, I said, you know... Who's that? Oh, Richard Leakey was a wonderful paleoanthropologist. His father was Louis Leakey. And Louis Leakey is the one who launched Jane Goodall into Tanzania to study chimpanzees and Diane Fossey to study the gorillas. Louis Leakey was a wonderful paleoanthropologist and his son, Richard, worked for many, many years in Kenya

and died recently. But I put this question to him. I said, all the work that you've done studying human behavior and human diets, aren't we naturally carnivores? And he looked at me in the eye and he said, understand we are not carnivores and never have been carnivores. What allowed people to start to eat as if they're carnivores was the advent of the stone age, when we were able to make stone tools that became axes and arrowheads left to your own devices. Without those tools, you can't

chase down a deer or an antelope. You might occasionally get some roadkill or something like that, or not roadkill, but you know what I mean. You could scavenge from something left over by a lion or a hyena. And in fact, that he believed that that is how meat eating began, was that there was kill left over in a carcass that wasn't fully eaten by an actual carnivorous animal. And then once we got fire, which we didn't have before, once we got fire, now you're onto something. Now you can actually make meat, at least over the short term, safe to eat. I want to talk a lot more about hormones, but just to close off this section about weight loss that we were talking about, we were talking originally about the blueberries. There's another

group of foods which you include in the Power Foods diet, one of which is the, and I'm going to get this word wrong, cruciferous vegetables. Yeah, cruciferous vegetables. That's exactly what I said. Can you say that again? Cruciferous. And what- Cruciform, the flower on broccoli or cauliflower or Brussels sprouts. When they're growing, they present this little flower that has kind of a little cross shape in it. So it's called cruciferous. Cruciferous. Yeah.

And they're healthy foods. They are good in many ways. And they're good for weight loss, specifically. Yeah, they are. They're one of the top foods that the Harvard researchers associated with weight loss. And frankly, it's kind of for a no-brainer reason. They are really high in fiber. A cup of broccoli has maybe five grams of fiber in it, but all of about 50 or 60 calories, like none. So it's very, very filling, very low in calories. So what's in that category then? Broccoli, cauliflower, cabbage,

Brussels sprouts, those kinds of things, right? Yeah. Arugula and lots more. Yes. They have a second benefit. Researchers at Johns Hopkins have been studying them not for weight loss, but for cancer prevention. And they find that, maybe not surprisingly, people who eat more of these have less of various forms of cancer. But it turns out that what they do is a surprise. If you eat a couple of servings of broccoli today and the same thing tomorrow, then by about the following day, at that same time of day, your liver is making more of what are called phase 2 enzymes. The phase 2 enzymes are there to remove

toxins from your body. So if you inhale bus exhaust or some other toxin that's in your body, your liver is there to filter them out and get rid of them. And your liver is more powerful if the cruciferous vegetables were in your diet because they cause it to make more of these detoxification enzymes. But there are lots of these foods and some of them are not foods, but they're flavors like cinnamon. Cinnamon has a compound in it that scientists didn't know what to call it. They ended up calling it cinnamaldehyde. Researchers are not always very creative with their naming, but cinnamon contains this thing called cinnamaldehyde and it's associated with weight loss. And it appears that it works by increasing metabolism. So what researchers have done, there are many of these studies,

but there was a 2017 study where researchers, all they did in a randomized trial was give cinnamon or nothing. And the amount of cinnamon was about one teaspoon per day, which you could throw in water or whatever. And what they showed was about a seven or eight pound weight loss over a matter of several weeks. And so I'm not recommending that people just add cinnamon to bread that's slathered with butter because you can undo the power. But the whole point of the power foods dietary approach is rather than thinking about all the things I can't eat, let's bring in, we know that berries are good. So let's say I make a muffin and instead of cooking it with butter, I'm going to cook it in a healthy way and I'm going to have blueberries in it. So the food's got to be, they have to be good so that you'll like them, so that you'll serve them to your

family. And then the weight loss just kicks in automatically. A teaspoon of cinnamon per day caused an average weight loss of about half a pound per week. That's on page 24 of your book, which was really surprising to me. The other thing that I found quite surprising was you talk about hot peppers. I love hot peppers. And you say that they're a great weight loss food. Who knew that that hot feeling that you experience afterwards, it's not just hot in your tongue. You can put a sensor on your forehead and you will actually see the body is burning off calories as a result of eating the spicy food. So I'm not suggesting that people take a couple of jalapenos

and just eat that. But what I am suggesting is that there are spices. There's cinnamon. There is the capsaicins. Those are the hot in the hot peppers. There's also ginger. They all have these kinds of effects where they readjust your body chemistry

to be a calorie burner. So the foods taste great. You're not increasing your workout, but the weight comes off. And I don't want people to get modest about this. We're in a study right now. And the study has been going on for about 18 weeks now. One of the guys in the study has lost 60 pounds already. Now, I don't encourage people to lose weight that fast,

and the person who's going to lose weight that fast is a person who's got a lot of weight to lose. But if you've got 5 or 10 pounds that you want to lose, or maybe 30 or 40, that'd be very typical. Let's lose it. Let's not fool around. Let's put yourself in a body that you want to be in, that makes you feel good, that doesn't just help you to knock off that weight, but helps your arteries to open up, helps your sexual function to return, helps your mind to work today and to protect it for tomorrow. We can do those things. It's all a question of having the information and then putting it to work. Is there truth in the fact that spicy foods, specifically spicy peppers, like hot peppers, reduce your appetite? They seem to, but I don't believe that that is the

main effect. I think the main effect is on metabolism. They do seem to affect the appetite in a helpful way, but the main effect I think is the metabolic increase. We see, we can measure this where we bring people in and you put on kind of a mask, you look like a pilot. And what I'm actually measuring is your carbon dioxide output and then your oxygen intake. And that's proportional to your metabolism. It's proportional to how fast you're burning calories. And almost anything you eat will cause you to increase your metabolism while you are in the post-ingestion period. But two things. There are certain foods that cause a bigger burn than others. The ones that cause the biggest burn are the ones that are high in carbohydrate, but also

peppers are for some reason in that category. And if a person has been on a low-fat vegan diet going into the test. They get an even bigger burn afterwards. And that's because their body is, we believe, is more insulin sensitive than it was before. So if I want to really increase your burn and help you to get the weight off, I would not only serve you these healthy foods at each meal, but I would take advantage of the fact

that they are adjusting your physiology for the long term. What about ginger? Yeah, ginger is also, it's a relative of these other foods where you see that capsaicin is the one that's that really killer spice. Ginger is kind of its first cousin and it causes a similar effect. A weight loss effect. Yeah, and other things too. I mean mean people use ginger for many many things and people using it for migraines and as an anti-inflammatory there's a reason that these spices have been used since time immemorial and our goal now is to tackle this big issue of extra weight and just see if we can put it to work for that mangoes papayas legumes green vegetables orange vegetables are all some of the things included in the power

foods diet the most controversial of all though is eggs yeah you know you can come for everything else but coming for eggs is particularly triggering you say in the book eggs are not helpful for your waistline well eggs have lots of issues. The first is that it's a cholesterol bomb. And the egg industry would like us to believe that they don't raise cholesterol. They clearly do. And we published a review on this where we looked at every study ever done on eggs, and they clearly raise cholesterol. And even the studies done by the egg industry do show this, although their interpretation is different. If the studies were funded by the egg industry, they'll say, well, it increased cholesterol, but not significantly or something like that. But they clearly do. room service. That chicken developing inside has to make the chicken's body from everything that was in the egg. And so it's laid with a ton of cholesterol because the cholesterol is an integral

ingredient for the animal's body. If instead you boil it and eat it, you're getting a ton of cholesterol. So anyway, you can have eggs if you want them, but it's got a huge amount of cholesterol and you don't need the rest of it. You wrote a book in 2020, which touches on a few of the subjects we've already touched on around the hormones within our body. I think hormones are a under-addressed, but very interesting and very important subject matter. For someone that doesn't really understand hormones and doesn't really know the relevance of them, what are our hormones and why does understanding our hormone balances matter at all? Hormones are the director that controls everything in your body. And the old way of thinking about

food, the old fashioned way of thinking about food was I eat a bad food, I have a disease. I eat high cholesterol foods, I'll get a heart attack. Fair enough. But what we have now learned is that hormones control everything in your body and foods control your hormones. Hormones are directions. They're letters. They're messages. They go from one part of the body where they're made to another part of the body where they tell it what to do. And if we're just eating foods without any understanding of what that's doing to those hormones, then you're a victim of everything that's in your diet. I was sitting at my desk one day, a young woman called me up. She said, I can't get out of bed.

And a lot of women have menstrual cramps for maybe one in 10, it's off the scale. I can't go to work today type cramps. And that was her situation. She said, I got a business meeting. I'm supposed to be at the airport tomorrow morning, but I can't even move. Could I give her Demerol? That was her question. It's a narcotic. And I said, I can give you heavy duty painkillers for a couple of days. But I was thinking, what's causing this? And I started to realize that there was a very good

chance that she had too much estrogen in her blood. The estrogen every month thickens the lining of the uterus in a woman's body in anticipation of pregnancy. And that endometrial lining, if there's too much estrogen, it thickens up too much. And then with the menstrual flow, it breaks apart and it releases these maladjusted chemicals called prostaglandins that cause the cramping. So I started thinking, wait a minute, let's reduce her estrogen. Let's change her hormones. How are we going to do that? As luck would have it, researchers at Tufts University in Boston had done a study. They brought in a group of women, 48 women. They put them on a metabolic ward. They locked the door.

They prepared all the food. They gave them diets for eight to 10 weeks each, either cutting fat, increasing fiber, or doing both at the same time. And what they found was amazing. The more you cut fat, the more estrogen levels came down to a more normal level. The more that you increased fiber, again, the more that estrogen came down. What they were thinking about was breast cancer. If I can tame estradiol, I can reduce breast cancer risk. But I was thinking, this woman has hormone haywire that's causing her cramps. So I suggested something

I don't think any doctor ever suggested before. I said, let me give you some painkillers for today, for tomorrow, so you can function. But would you like to try and experiment? Everything in your diet, I want to be from a plant for the next four weeks and keep oils really low. What am I doing?

I'm making sure she gets max fiber, minimum fat. She called me back four weeks later. She said, Dr. Barnard, I got my period today. Nothing, no symptoms whatsoever. She said, this is miraculous. This hasn't happened to me ever. And she was cured as long as she stuck with it. But then she would kind of loosen up her diet

and then the pain came roaring back. So we then did a randomized trial, which we published in the Journal of Obstetrics and Gynecology with our partners at Georgetown University's Department of OBGYN. And it was randomized. It was the diet versus a supplement that was actually a placebo.

And it works. And the was the diet versus a supplement that was actually a placebo. And it works. And the diet reduced the duration of pain, the intensity of the pain, as well as PMS symptoms like bloating and water retention and moodiness. All these things got better. Now there's some variability. For some women, it's just cure.

For others, the effect is more mild. But then we started to realize, wait a minute, how about menopause, where a woman has hot flashes that are driving her crazy? You can change that whole scenario dramatically with food and things like thyroid function, where a person's hypo or hyperthyroid. All of these things have food connections. We need more research. Not everything is known, but there is more than enough known now that people should be able to put it to work for themselves. Speaking specifically there, but I want to talk about the other things you mentioned,

thyroids, menopause, et cetera. But on the point of fertility, a lot of people are struggling with fertility for a variety of different reasons. I think we're all getting a little bit, you know, we're having kids later than ever before, both men and women, and fertility as a conversation is rising and also IVF is becoming more popular for obvious reasons. What impact does our bodies, specifically how large our bodies are and how much fat we have on our bodies, have on our chances of being fertile? And are we seeing any sort of macro trends in human fertility? Yeah, we are. I mean, fertility is threatened and you see more infertility now than you've probably ever seen. Now, let me say that I'm not cheerleading for increasing human

fertility. We've got more than enough of it. And I think people shouldn't feel pressured to jump into it if it's not their thing. However, for women and men who want to have kids, there are certain things that are good to know about. And one is that excess body weight interferes. No big surprise. When women are carrying more body weight, it's a hormone-producing organ. Body fat is not just jello in a bag. Body fat, each fat cell is metabolically active, creating estrogens that are causing your body to be in an abnormal state. The sweet spot for fertility is if you measure your BMI, your body mass index. And if people have never done it, you just go online and you can look up BMI calculator, you put in your height and your weight. And what it'll say is that a healthy BMI is between 18 and a half and 25. Over 25 is overweight. But within that huge,

broad fork, the sweet spot for fertility is around 19 or 20. So it's not just within the healthy range, but within kind of the skinny side of the healthy range. Why does my body weight, my sort of body mass impact how well my reproductive organs are working? Well, for men, we don't see quite so much that sweet spot. Although what we do see is that if a man acquires more body fat, what's going to happen is he's making more estrogen and losing his testosterone. So the more weight you have, the more of these sort of estrogens and testosterone the body produces. The more body fat that you have, the more a man's body will take the testosterone and convert it to estrogen. So you're losing testosterone, gaining estrogen, which is the

last thing that you want. But there's another part of the fertility issue, and that's dairy products. And researchers have been looking at this for a long period of time. There has been concern that dairy products interfere with fertility, both for men and for women. And Dan Kramer at Harvard University was really a proponent of this, looking at different countries and countries where dairy was just not their thing. There are a lot of countries, particularly in Asia, where dairy just isn't a thing. And there are others where it's everyday food. And you could see fertility tracking inversely with dairy consumption. There was something about dairy that was getting in the

way. And what his theory was that it's not in this case, the dairy fat. He believed and wrote that it might be the dairy sugar because the dairy sugar is lactose. And it's famous because a lot of people don't digest lactose very well. But the ones who don't digest it are the lucky ones because you're not going to consume it. The unlucky ones are people who can digest lactose and it breaks into two sugars. The lactose sugar has glucose and galactose attached together. And when it breaks apart, that galactose we believe is toxic to the ovary. That's a theory, but there's evidence to suggest that it's true.

And our concern is not just that it interferes with fertility, but that it's also associated with ovarian cancer. So stay tuned. Is there a link there also with fiber and fertility? If we have a low fiber diet, will our fertility drop? We would have to think so, because all of these things sort of go in the same direction. A plant-based diet tends to get your hormones in a better balance. Why though? What is fiber doing inside the body that's causing my hormones to change? Okay.

Your liver, every minute of every day, even while you're asleep, is filtering your blood. One of the things it filters out is anything that shouldn't be there. A toxin or even a medication. Your liver says, I'm not sure we want this in your blood. It'll try to remove it. And excess estrogens are also removed. When they're removed by the liver cells, they're sent through into the intestinal tract. Your liver through the bile duct sends unwanted estrogens, excess estrogens down into the intestinal tract and they go out into the toilet. Except, let's say I don't have much fiber in my diet. Let's say that I'm eating cheese and I'm eating a lot of

meat. These don't have fiber at all. Then in that case, the estrogens go down the intestinal tract and before they can be excreted, they're reabsorbed through the intestinal wall back into the blood. Doctors call this enterohepatic circulation. And so that very same estrogen molecule that your liver spotted and it removed it and it sent it down into your intestinal tract thinking it was getting rid of it.

It went through the intestinal wall back into the blood and ended up at the liver. Because there wasn't enough fiber. Because there was not enough fiber. If you have fiber in your diet, the fiber grabs those estrogen molecules and it carries them out with the waste. Okay. So this is my conclusion here, just to make sure I'm perfectly clear. If I have a lot of excess fat on my body, that means that I'm going to be producing more. If I'm a woman, I'm going to be producing a lot of more

estrogen because the fat cells produce estrogen. So there's more estrogen being produced. And if I don't have the fiber, that estrogen is going to go into my liver and then it's going to be reabsorbed back into my bloodstream and stay there, increasing my estrogen levels to a point where I'm struggling with fertility. But if I do have a lot of fiber, the fiber will grab that excess estrogen and it will take it out into the toilet. Exactly. And you want hormones, you want to be in balance, not too little, not too much. Hormones will kill you. Thyroid hormone. All of these things can ultimately be fatal if they're in too high an amount or too low of an amount.

What's a thyroid? The thyroid is this little Clark Kent at the base of your neck. Yeah, yeah. You can barely feel that it's there, but the thyroid gland makes thyroid hormone, which gives you energy. And if it's not working,

you know it. You get out of bed in the morning, you look in the mirror and you say, I just don't look right. My energy's not good. There's something wrong with my hair. My skin doesn't feel right. And a lot of people are low in thyroid. I've heard that phrase before a few times, underactive thyroid. Does that just mean that the thyroid's not producing enough thyroid hormone? Exactly. It's not making enough. And there are two reasons for it. The first reason is that you can't make one molecule of thyroid hormone if you don't have iodine in your diet. And iodine is an element that's in the earth, it's in seaweeds, it's in a number of things like that, but you may not be consuming it. Now, luckily,

there is iodide added to salt. So your average person in most countries gets iodine from that source. And people who live in Japan and countries where they see vegetables a lot get huge amounts of iodine. But if you're low in iodine, you can't make thyroid hormone. The bigger reason though, here in the US, is antibodies. That your body makes antibodies to kill bacteria or to kill viruses. Your white blood cells make these antibodies, which are protein torpedoes that find that virus and knock it out. But for some reason, your white blood cells will make antibodies that attack you. And they attack your thyroid gland. And they stop it from working.

And autoimmune conditions are, there are many of them, rheumatoid arthritis, is antibodies are attacking the lining of your joints. And what we believe is happening is that something entered your body and triggered that antibody release and that something could be a dietary protein like dairy proteins or meat. Now, no one has ever done a study to this point to see if a plant-based diet could reverse hypothyroidism. But we have evidence that they should, because first of all, in the Adventist Health Study 2, they brought in 60, 70,000 people, and they showed that the people with the most hypothyroidism, the people in whom it was most common,

were the big dairy consumers. In fact, vegetarians who were eating lots and lots of milk and cheese. The dairy protein, we believe, is the trigger for this. The people who had the least hypothyroidism are the vegans. When it came to hyperthyroidism, the same thing happens, but the physiology is a little different. Your antibodies are now attacking the turnoff switch.

So the thyroid can't turn off. You can't regulate it anymore. And you're cranking out too much thyroid hormone. They are the people who have the most risk are the meat eaters, omnivores, people eating a lot of meat, a lot of dairy. Again, the vegans are the lowest in both. And we do see individual cases, anecdotal cases of people who've changed their diets and their thyroid's improved. But what we need is a randomized trial. Yeah. And I think that's the important point, isn't it? Because I always think when I, when I've heard people talking about the sort of meat eating diet versus the vegan diet, my brain goes, well, you know, the fact that this is, could be a massive stereotype

and it might be wrong. So just to caveat that, but I tend to think that people that eat vegan diet generally make better health choices outside of their diet. They tend to have more exercise. They tend to just be more conscious. They tend to have more exercise. They tend to just be more conscious. They tend to probably smoke less. They probably drink less alcohol versus someone on the typical American diet who's having McDonald's, having alcohol, lots of sugar, processed foods, et cetera, probably exercising less. So in those sort of mass scale studies that aren't controlled and randomized, I go, it's hard to believe anything because I don't know the full picture. We saw this particularly when we looked at intelligence testing in kids. The kids who are raised on plant-based diets have score much higher

on intellectual testing. And I believe that in those kids, it's probably an artifact, that they're raised by parents who are very well-educated and are giving their kids every opportunity. And so they're using a plant-based diet well-educated and are giving their kids every opportunity. And so they're using a plant-based diet for the kid because they think it's the best thing. However, the way the answer to this is to do a randomized trial. Because when you bring in people who are already eating a junk food diet, and then you can randomly assign some people to a control group

and others to a specific food diet, and then you can randomly assign some people to a control group and others to a specific dietary intervention. Then you're taking people who've been eating the same kind of diet, but what you're changing is the foods that they're eating. And let me be clear, getting away from animal products is always a good idea. However, when you pick and choose what's left, there's a big difference between a bowl of blueberries and a plate of chips um so what we want to it's always a good idea to go into the animal products but we want to bring in the best of what's left and if we choose the foods the right way we can knock off that weight we've wanted to knock off and we can really reclaim our health in a good way the key to growing a business is making sure that it's scalable. And this comes with integrating into the right platforms early in the game to support

your growth. A platform that has helped me and my team to do this is Shopify, who I'm sure you know by now because they do sponsor this podcast. Shopify is a commerce platform revolutionizing millions of businesses worldwide. We recently launched our second version of the Dairiva CEO conversation cards on Shopify, which would not have been possible without Shopify. When I started podcasting, an online store was the furthest thing from my mind. But now thanks to how simple it is to use the platform, it's made this whole process so unbelievably easy. It's actually the internet's best converting checkout, 36% better on average compared to other leading commerce platforms. If you guys haven't tried Shopify and you're business owners, go and try it now because

you can sign up for a $1 per month trial period just by heading to shopify.com slash Bartlett and you can get started for $1. As you know, Whoop are a sponsor of this podcast and I'm an investor in the company. And last month I had the chance to sit down with Kristen Holmes. She's the VP of performance at Whoop. And I learned so much from our conversation about circadian rhythms and things like sleep. Studies show that for every 45 minutes of sleep debt that you accrue, that your decision-making ability will drop by up to 10%. And when you're chronically underslept, you'll only be a fraction of the person, the fraction of the boss, partner, friend, manager that you can be. That's why I'm obsessed with Whoop, which not just tracks but coaches you on how to get better at sleep so you can bring

your best to everything that you choose to do. If you're not convinced, you can try Whoop for 30 days completely risk-free with zero commitment just by going to join.whoop.com slash CEO that's join.whoop.com slash CEO and let me know how you get on if you don't like it there's no commitment join.whoop.com slash CEO the other book of yours that I was reading was about the power foods for the brain. I recently had my brain scanned, found out lots of interesting things about why I am the way that I am. And since then, the doctor that scanned my brain, Dr. Armin, he prescribed me a bunch of different things to help with my, I guess, to regrow my brain in many respects, because there's a couple of concerns, or there's at least a trajectory which might not be great if I don't make some changes. The book you wrote discusses Alzheimer's a lot and general sort of things like memory, etc.

Why did you write that book? What was the call there, the personal reason for doing that? Well, there were a number of things, but I have to say my father died. And on the day that he died, his heart stopped beating. But the truth of the matter is that he died, for all intents and purposes, five, six, seven years earlier than that because he had dementia. And it started out, he was an intelligent person. He was a physician, very well read, but he started to have memory lapses and it got worse and worse and worse so that it was every day he had trouble with his memory. And then he couldn't control his emotions and ended up not being able to control anything

in his life and had to be separated from my mother who cared for 24-7 and he finally died. It's a horrible thing to have happen. And in 2003, the Chicago Health and Aging Project published some amazing findings. What they did is they went around Chicago. They just rounded up people and said, what did you eat for breakfast? And people would write down what they ate for breakfast, what they ate for lunch, what they ate for dinner. And then they just waited. As time went on, who retained their cognitive abilities? Over years? Over years. Okay. Exactly. So you do structured tests where you look to see, can you recall words? Can you

draw a face or a clock and put things in the proper perspective? And there are a number of other tests. And those people who stayed mentally clear tended to be the ones who tended to avoid saturated fat. And the specific number was about a two-thirds reduction in the risk of developing Alzheimer's disease in those individuals who are very low in saturated fat. What's saturated fat? That's the solid fat that is in dairy number one, meat number two. That alone was amazing. In the journal Neurology and other journals, these studies started coming out and we thought, let me make the clock go backward because I want to tell my father. My dad grew up in a cattle ranch. We ate like we were in the cattle industry all my life. You're

getting this huge load of saturated fat going down your gut, affecting your heart, affecting your brain in ways that we only have recently come to appreciate. But the truth of the matter is, it's not just that. There are five things you need to do to protect your brain. If you're not doing them, you're playing with fire. Number one, get away from the meat and the dairy products

because they are pushing the saturated fat into your diet. And there are others too, like coconut oil and palm oil. They're marketed as healthy, but they are as bad as butter. Number two, there are metals in your diet. You're not aware that they're there, but iron, copper, these are things you need a tiny bit of. You don't need the overload that comes in liver and in steak. Aluminum is a metal that you don't need any of at all, but it's an added ingredient in all kinds of foods,

as well as in medications. Number three, you need to exercise. Lace up your sneakers. You are great with this. You are a role model. People should do what you do. Thank you. And researchers at the University of Illinois

brought in 120 people, older folks who were not exercising, and what they asked them to do was a 10-minute walk, a brisk walk. Now, brisk means I'm breathing a little faster than I was before, but not so fast that I can't speak. And 10 minutes, three times a week. Then the next week, 15 minutes. Then the next week, 15 minutes. Then the next week, 20 minutes. And when they got up to 40 minutes three times a week, they stayed at that level. And what they showed

is that the hippocampus, the seat of memory in the brain, which had been shrinking, started to reverse that process. And you could see a measurable reversal of that brain shrinkage. Number four, you have to stop. You can't exercise all the time. You can't read things all the time. You can't watch documentaries all the time, hoping to protect your brain. Your brain needs downtime. And when the clock strikes 10, I don't care how good the podcast is that you are listening to, turn it off and go to sleep. Get up early the next day if you need to. The first... Even if it's this podcast, turn it off. Even this one, pick it up tomorrow morning and you're going to learn better. Because in the... I agree to disagree. You've said a lot of things that are controversial, but I think that might

be the most controversial. All right. This one will allow you to watch it, particularly if it's me talking. But in the first part of the night, your body is engaged in what's called slow wave sleep. That's where you're taking your apartment and organizing things. All the file folders and things that are all over higgledy-piggledy. When in the early part of the night, 1130, 12, one o'clock in the morning, your body is filing away. Here's a new word. And it's putting it in a place where you can find it when you need it. Later on in the night, the brain does what's called REM sleep, rapid eye movement. You're dreaming. And now you're integrating physical skills like playing the violin or tennis or anything physical and also emotions. So if you are not sleeping, what's happening? You're going to

have crummy memory. Anybody can test this themselves. Just look at a time when you're sleep deprived. You discover your memory is shot after about three, four days, and your emotional control is much worse. Get a good night's sleep. After a few days, you'll get right back together. So we've talked about avoiding saturated fat.

You want to avoid the excess metals. You need to exercise. You need to stop and sleep. But there's a fifth thing. When somebody has any rapid change in mental status, you got to walk in the bathroom, open up the medicine cabinet and see what's new. Because we have seen so many medications that are causing brain effects we never expected. One of the most surprising was statins. We have seen hundreds and hundreds of cases of individuals, by now it's thousands, of individuals where you're having memory problems, sometimes severe from statin drugs.

Don't get me wrong. Statins effectively lower cholesterol. For some people, that has a life-saving effect. But that and many other medications are going to affect the memory in some ways that can be so severe that when we take that medication away and let your body reheal, you can pack your bags and get out of that nursing home and go back home. It's a really interesting example there. I think as you say that there is life-saving consequences to statins, and also that is a side effect, right? In some cases.

Yes. Right, but not all cases, I guess. Not all cases, exactly. But 90% of people on statins don't need them, or wouldn't need them if they followed a healthy diet. The reason they have a high cholesterol is that they are eating products that cause their body to make more cholesterol.

And those are animal-derived products. If I was able to look at your father's brain before he passed away, would I have been able to see the dementia? Yeah, you can. This is the terrible thing, is that we do know that if you catch dementing processes early, reversal is possible. You see that not only with paper and pencil testing, their memory is getting better, but you can see it on the brain scan where the hippocampus is, the reversal process is turning around. But there is a point where the brain cells themselves are dying.

It's like a shriveled cauliflower. And there's a time where that memory is just not going to come back. And so we want to prevent it. We want to prevent it starting now. At Kaiser Permanente, researchers did a study. They brought in almost 10,000 people and they tracked their cholesterol levels and found that if you got a high cholesterol level, it's not just bad for your heart, it's bad for the brain. The cholesterol levels were taken when the people were about 40. So the point being that what you're doing now is affecting your heart. It's affecting your brain now. There's someone listening to this right now that is 21, 24, 26, 28. What's the message to them? The message to them is pick the bean burrito. The message to them is pick the foods that are healthiest for you.

But does it matter then? Does it matter? Because a lot of them will think, oh, I'll worry about that later. I'll worry about, I'm 31, I'll worry about this stuff when I get to 50. I absolutely know what you're talking about. When I was that age, I smoked cigarettes. I smoked about a pack a day. Yes, it's true. I did. what you're talking about. When I was that age, I smoked cigarettes. I smoked about a pack a day. Yes, it's true. I did. In fact, all the medical students did. We figured, I'm under so much stress. When I'm done with medical school, I'll quit at that point. Nowadays, medical students wouldn't do this. We smoked the cigarettes we bought in the hospital gift shop. Yeah, Our patients could smoke in bed

as long as there wasn't oxygen flowing. But anyway, let's face it. Young people take any risk that they can. And, but what really got our attention was studies showing that if you look at the tragic cases where teenagers are killed in an accident or killed in wartime, and you look at autopsies, what you see is atherosclerosis, that hardening of the arteries has already begun. And it's been working through

their teens. By about age 18 or 19, many kids have already lost one of their lumbar arteries. What this means is your heart gives off the aorta, the huge main line that goes up, and then it does a U-turn, goes right down in front of your spine, and it gives blood to each vertebral segment. And the very first place where those atherosclerotic lesions form and pave off those little bifurcating arteries, the little side arteries that are going to help your lumbar spine, the very first place where atherosclerosis occurs in a big way is in this lumbar spine. So you'll see a guy, 18, 19, has completely lost the blood supply to one part of the lower back. Now there are collaterals, but eventually he's going to get lower back pain because the discs between the vertebrae,

they don't get any blood supply at all. They get oxygen by diffusion from the vertebrae. And the more you cut off the blood supply, the weaker that disc gets. And it's like a pillow where the outer covering of the pillow degenerates and the stuffing comes out, pushes on a nerve, and you got pain all the way down your leg. And you thought, well, that was because I'm in stress and I'm strained. I was in an accident. Yeah, those are all precipitating factors, but you were set up for it

because your body cannot heal anymore because you've got no blood supply anymore. So a clean diet can help protect against those things. Well, what I have seen in your father's brain, if I looked at your father's brain under a microscope, what I've seen like a plaque buildup, is that what it's like? You would see several things.

You would see plaque between the neurons between the brain cells are what we call beta amyloid and it's these proteins that the brain cells make and it's still controversial what it's doing there but most people believe it's part of the disease process and there are malignant proteins called tau proteins that are in the neurons there they're there they've been we've known they've been there for a long period of time. But it's worse than that. The brain itself, I mean, at 100 feet, you could see the difference.

If you could look at that scan, a healthy brain stays big and vibrant. The Alzheimer's brain is visibly shrinking and deteriorating. And that person is not going to come back from that. You know, there's a big school of thought that doing a lot of sort of crosswords and stuff like that helps the brain to kind of defend against that shrinking, that shriveling you're talking about. One of the things I was prescribed for my brain is to do a lot of paddle sports and like racket sports. What's your view on that? I think we need more research on all those areas, but I am inclined to think that the more we use it, the less we lose it. So if we use our brain,

and not just reading, thinking, vocabulary things are good. In Canada, researchers discovered, you know, some people speak English in Canada, some people speak French, some people speak both. Some people have three languages or four languages. The more languages people speak, the more delayed is any kind of cognitive decline. So what we believe is that it may well be that using the neurons keeps them active, but we're not just using our brains to remember words and remember sentences and remember facts. You're using your brain, every step you take on it, when you're out running, your brain has to anticipate where your foot is going to go,

where the pavement is to keep you from falling down. And you're not just running along. Your brain is automatically tracking where you're going. It's keeping you from falling over. It's regulating your balance. And that is a big job. It's not just muscles. Exercise involves the brain in a huge way. And that is great to feed your brain with physical exercise, with things that allow your vestibular system

to work. That means anything that is involved with turning and movement. All that is great for the brain. I also read in your book that exercise in particular helps sort of clear out toxins that are associated with sort of cognitive decline and the decay of brain cells? To make it simple, the more you're moving, the more your heart is pumping. It's doing that to get oxygen into your muscles. That's its job. But what is it doing in the process? It's sending the blood up to your brain and the blood is coming out of your brain, carrying things away. So the more active we are, the better off we're going to be. And in that book, you say overall, they show that regular aerobic exercise trims the risk of dementia by about 30% and cuts the risk of

Alzheimer's disease roughly by 50%. And I think the numbers are better than that, to tell you the honest truth. If you combine a healthy diet, which means getting away from the saturated fat, which is the dairy and the meat, and having the vitamin E rich foods, like some nuts and some seeds, which are healthy vitamin E rich foods, not pills. You get it from the foods themselves. Avoid the metals. Lace up your sneakers. And if you can get a good night's sleep, I would suggest that we could probably cut Alzheimer's risk by 80%. It needs to be proved. We need to prove it in research studies, but there is no reason to wait. You don't want to be in the

control group that is doing nothing to see what happens to your brain. Participants in a Chicago study who got three to four vegetable servings per day slowed their rate of cognitive decline by 40% compared to those who got only one serving of vegetables per day. And I guess that speaks to the importance of vitamin E, which is in all of those vegetables, right? There's vitamin E in those, but there's a bunch more of the vegetables as well. There's fiber and there's many other vegetables, B vitamins as well. And I got to say, to be in the high vegetable group in the United States, even having one or two vegetables per day is pretty great, except for unfortunately, the only vegetable a lot of Americans eat is French fries or potato chips or something like that.

So bringing the vegetables in a big way. Coffee? Who knows? People have wanted to say coffee is a healthy thing. And in fact, there have been studies that show that people who drink more coffee are at less risk of Alzheimer's disease. Now, the problem is it had to be a lot of coffee.

It had to be five cups a day or even more. And there are other studies that do counteract that. I'm inclined to think that maybe the biggest consideration is what goes into your coffee. So if what's going into your coffee is some creamer and a whole bunch of sugar, that's really not so healthy for you. Maybe that's not the best choice. And lastly, you said the word metals. When you say metals, what do you mean? Like this cup here is metal. What do you mean by metals? Keeping metals out of my body. There are three metals we're concerned about, iron, copper, and aluminum. There may be others too, but those are the biggies. Iron is something that your body

needs. Your body makes hemoglobin with iron and you need that to carry oxygen. That's what makes your blood red. However, your body only needs a certain amount. And if you get too much, it can damage the heart and can damage the brain. It's easy to get too much. Our bodies are built for plant foods, and plant foods have what's called non-heme iron. And the beauty of this form of iron is if you're already iron overloaded, your body says, I got it. Let me absorb less iron now. If you're low in iron, your body can take that non-heme iron and absorb more. It's the form your body can regulate. But if like me, you grew up in North Dakota and you're eating a lot of beef, there's a lot of iron

in it and your body cannot regulate the heme iron. It just comes into your system and you end up iron overloaded. So iron is the first one. And the solution is avoid animal products. Or if you want to be clever, you can go donate blood and you can give your iron to somebody else. It works. Copper, copper pipes. If you have copper pipes in your house and all night long the water sits in them and then you fill your coffee maker in the morning, you're getting a big load of copper. The aluminum is quite a story though. In England, researchers looked at different counties where there was more aluminum in the drinking water. It's not in the well and it's not in the river. It's used in the purification process.

The aluminum compounds are added to clear the water and you have to then carefully extract them. And if you don't extract it, you get aluminum out of your tap. And the counties with the most aluminum in their drinking water had 50% higher risk of Alzheimer's. So researchers have looked at that. And there are plenty of neurologists who think it's just a fluke,

except that you do see it with some frequency. The reason we think it's not a fluke is that aluminum is a neurotoxin. And we learned that from industrial accidents where aluminum compounds are suddenly inhaled by everybody. It's without question a neurotoxin. And secondly, there is zero use for aluminum in human physiology. You don't need it. So if you're taking an antacid that's made with aluminum, or you're putting on a deodorant that's got aluminum as one of the antiperspirant ingredients in it, some of them have that, a lot of them have that, it goes through the skin and you're getting this neurotoxin which is in your body.

So while the research is continuing, my advice is steer clear of the aluminum completely and be careful about the iron and copper. You put this together, your body can be as healthy as nature wanted it to be. I've started thinking a lot about that, about the products that I have around my house. You know, I just, for many, many years, just bought whatever was in the supermarket that I thought had a nice label or, you know, I was a victim of marketing. So whatever marketed the product best to me, I just buy. And then in the last sort of six months, I'm now sort of scanning the things that I'm buying from supermarkets and shops and the things by my bathroom sink to just try and make sure that they are clean, as clean as possible from some of these

sort of toxic chemicals. Do you do that? Absolutely. And that comes with everything you're eating. If I've got the opportunity to choose organic or non-organic vegetables, even if the organic costs more, do I want one with chemicals or without? Frankly, it's a no-brainer. The app I use just for anybody, I'm not affiliated with the app at all, but I know people are going to be sat there thinking, how are you scanning your stuff? The app I use to scan my products is an app called Think Dirty, which has a big database of their ingredients. So I'd recommend that. Neil, what is your closing message? Someone's got this far into the conversation. They've heard everything you've said. And, you know, they're thinking, God,

I do love my food. I love my animal proteins. I love chicken. I love steak. I'm probably not going to quit chicken or steak because it's just, you know, it's one of my favorite foods. It's convenient. What's your closing message to those people? My message for everybody is let's see what your body can do. Let's see how foods work. Let's not think about the long run. Let's think about the short run. If a person comes in and they've got diabetes, my job with them is to see, can I cure you? So if a person says, well, I don't really want to make big changes, I'm going to say, let's make some huge changes right now, because if we can get cured of this in the next six or eight or 10 weeks, that's good to know. So let's say you're not in that situation, but you've got

weight you'd like to lose. You'd like to feel better. Let's make some big changes now. Let's do a little bit of bootcamp. Let's see the foods that love you back. Let's put those power foods into your diet and see what they'll do for you. And then after you've had a chance to experience it, then it's up to you.

You use it as much or as little as you want to. And for most people, they just view the world differently ever after. Neil, we have a closing tradition on this podcast where the last guest leaves a question for the next guest, not knowing who they're leaving it for. And the question that has been left for you is, what would you whisper in the ear of your younger self? Well, I would tell my younger self, frankly, the same thing that I would tell my younger self, frankly, the same thing that I would tell my older self,

which is to be grateful for the things that we have and that we have learned. And I would share that with you. You could do anything that you want to. You could have any kind of guest on your show that you want to. But what you're doing is you're taking information, you're asking terrific questions and talking about important things in a way that is going to get people

talking and thinking and trying new things and learning things, maybe disagreeing or agreeing or whatever, but you're starting a discussion that goes around the dinner table and it affects the next generation too. You will never know how many lives you save. But I mean this in all sincerity. You're changing people's lives by changing what they know and what they're trying out. And there are people who are going to be alive because of you. And I'm grateful to be able to play a part in that kind of work. But I'm also grateful to you for using your podium that you have to share that with other people. Thank you, Neil.

And that's a really incredible compliment. It's absolutely the truth. When you can share information with people that changes their lives, you'll never see the effects and they won't thank you. So that's my job. Thank you. I appreciate that.

And I extend that point of gratitude to our entire team here. There's almost 30 of us that are behind the scenes. I get a lot of the credit in the street because people see my face, but for the other 30 people that sit behind the production and work very hard to find people like you to have these conversations with, they deserve all the credit as well. And I have to say, you know, I have lots of people on this podcast that talk about health, diet, nutrition, all those things. The reason I do it is because I'm interested in it and I want to get better and better and better. And I've seen an improvement

in my diet, in my gut problems have gone away over the last three years. Lots of people come on the show. They have lots of different ideas about eating meat, about not eating meat, about eating this fruit, da da da. What I gain from it, and I probably should say this, although the information can sometimes be conflicting, right? Which I think information should be conflicting. I think that results in progress. I think it's two ideas clashing with each other that results in a new way of doing things or a new conclusion or a new solution. But for me, what I do, and this is what I advise all my listeners to do when they hear these conversations, is to listen, is to reserve judgment, is to do your own research. And finally,

it is to not worry about perfection, but it is to pick and mix things that get you closer and that induce progress. And that's what I do when I sit and listen to these experts. There'll be things you say today, like, I'll be honest with you, I can't see myself quitting chicken breast, right? However, there are many things you've said about blueberries, about, you know, metals in my diet, about exercise, about legumes and about vegetables and about these power foods that you talk about in your book that I now have more motivation to bring into my life. And that's honestly, I never tell anybody what to do with their life, but that's honestly just how I consume this information, especially when it's like varied and conflicting. And there's, you know, I find the overlaps and having spoken to, let's just say I

spoke to 10 health experts or authors or, you know, scientists, I find where the information overlaps and I take on that information into my life. And that is how I proceed with necessary caution. Neil, thank you. Thank you for being one of those people that is pushing conversation forward by presenting new ideas in new ways and doing it in such a compelling, accessible, story-driven way.

Because I think that makes the information land in a way that it should. And thank you again for all the lives that you'll save because of the messages makes the information land in a way that it should and thank you again for all the lives that you'll save because of the the messages and the way that you brought forward um the conversation around nutrition it's an incredibly important work and I throw back the compliment you gave me I'm sure you've saved many thousands and thousands and thousands of lives just by doing what you do so thank you on behalf of all those people as well thank you quick one from one of our

sponsors a lot of you have asked me the question about your over the years about where he'll fits into your life is it the most healthy choice one can make when they're thinking about what their nutrition and here's what i would say to all of those people i think in an ideal world i would be able to sit down and cook and prepare all of my meals. I think that would be my ideal option. But because of the nature of my life, because I'm moving around often, what used to happen before Huel was I'd end up making bad choices. I'd end up snacking, I'd have junk food options on the go because I was busy and my nutrition would come second to whatever my professional priority was. What Huel allows you to do is to have a healthier option on the go that is convenient,

that contains a lot of the nutrients that you need to have a complete diet. And that's exactly where it fits in my life. They've now expanded the range. If you haven't yet checked out the Huel RTD, I highly recommend you do. Go to your local Tesco, Boots or Sainsbury's or online and you can grab and try one there.