The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett - The “Winning Expert”: How To Become The Best You Can Be: Sir David Brailsford

Episode Date: January 17, 2022

Sir David Brailsford is the former Performance Director of British Cycling and current Team Principal of the Ineos Grenadiers, a professional cycling team that, along with its direct predecessor Team Sky, have won seven Tour De France titles since 2012. David is behind the business and life philosophy of ‘marginal gains’, a belief that paying attention to every little detail, and then trying to improve it by 1%, will have massive compound benefits when added together. Before David arrived at British Cycling, Britain was a relative backwater in the cycling world. Within a few years, he oversaw a team that won 8 out of 10 track medals at the olympic games. In this interview David opens up about the good times, and also the criticism he’s received, like never before. David's Team: Twitter - https://twitter.com/INEOSGrenadiers Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/ineosgrenadiers Follow me: https://beacons.ai/diaryofaceo

Quick one. Just wanted to say a big thank you to three people very quickly. First people I want to say thank you to is all of you that listen to the show. Never in my wildest dreams is all I can say. Never in my wildest dreams did I think I'd start a podcast in my kitchen and that it would expand all over the world as it has done. And we've now opened our first studio in America, thanks to my very helpful team led by Jack on the production side of things. So thank you to Jack and the team for building out the new American studio. And thirdly to to Amazon Music, who when they heard that we were expanding to the United States, and I'd be recording a lot more over in the States, they put a massive billboard in Times Square for the show. So thank you so much, Amazon Music. Thank you to our team. And

thank you to all of you that listened to this show. Let's continue. I'm very, very lucky that I get to help other people be the best version of themselves. Sir David Browsford. To many, he's one of the greatest winners of our generation. If you can get that little bit of insight, why do I feel how I'm feeling? Why do I respond like I do? And then you realise, you think, wow, a lot of my behaviour, a lot of my life was driven by emotion. It wasn't driven by the real me. Best thing ever if it happens, and if it doesn't,

then you might be absolutely devastated. But you've got to leave it as a dream, and you've got to understand that actually worrying about the consequence of an event is detrimental to the process and the performance and the chances of you achieving that event. Perfection. Perfection was so far away that there's no point in it because we're going to fail every day. So I thought, well, let's have a little progression.

What could we do by next week that we're not doing this week? What little things could we do? There's a million things that could impact performance. And it works. It works. 100% it works. It's been 20 years. Sir David Brailsford. I've tried since this podcast began to get Sir David Brailsford to come here and have a conversation with me. So having this conversation today and being able to share it with you is one of the highlights all time in this podcast history. I don't think

it's an understatement to say that he has worked miracles with teams, taking teams in cycling that were underachieving and making them undeniably the greatest team in their world and maybe of a generation. He's famous for this concept of marginal gains. It's a concept which I speak to my team about every single day. And maybe that's why I wanted to sit here with him. Today, you will understand without a shadow of a doubt, how to build a successful team. That's what you'll come away with. You'll understand how to be successful personally. You'll understand how to inspire those around you to be successful. But the surprising thing, which I think you'll also take away from this, is the cost of success. And we don't often

take enough time to ask ourselves that very honest question, is the climb worth the view? But by the end of this podcast, I think you'll be closer in your life to having an answer for that question. So without further ado, I'm Stephen Bartlett, and this is The Diver CEO. I hope nobody's listening, but if you are, then please keep this to yourself. A conscious sense of outsiderness from a very early age. You said that once upon a time, and it rang very true to me as well, and I found it to be a very early age. You said that once upon a time and it rang very true to me as well and I found it to be a very relatable thing. Where did that come from?

Where did your conscious sense of outsideness come from? It's funny when you say that because it resonates, it really does. So I was very young, just been born and my parents, my dad really, decided to move from Derby where I was born to North Wales and buy a house in Snowdonia. Very keen climber.

And he wanted to go to the proximity of the mountains. So we moved over there. And I grew up. It was a very, very Welsh-dominated, Welsh-speaking little village called Daen Yolng. I went to primary school there and grew up speaking first language Welsh. All my friends are Welsh. Everybody was Welsh, pretty much apart from my parents. And I had this sort of conundrum

then. I didn't probably realise it at the time, but I certainly, on reflection, you know, look back and, you know, I was very, very much in this Welsh community, very, very tight community. And I'd go home and my parents were obviously English parents and and I felt you know my dad didn't really conform he was there to climb he was there

as one of these outsiders who come in there to you know get up into the mountains and um and I think that that left me challenged I think because I was so wanted to be the same as all my mates, the same as everybody else, part of the tribe, part of the gang. And yet somewhere inside I felt maybe I wasn't quite, you know, I wasn't fully immersed in it, you know, I wasn't quite there. And don't get me wrong, I loved it. And I still, I go back then, I love it. I've got, you know, great friends there.

My mum still lives there. But I never actually quite, quite got that full sense of I belong there, you know. So I always felt that a little bit on the outside, I guess. You went on to be a great anomaly in what you've achieved in your life and success. And I look, I always, I'm always, I guess I'm a bit nosy, but I'm always, and I did a little bit childhood psychology when I was in school. So I try and look at like,

what the parental dynamics were that might've made someone that little bit more relentless and that little bit more hardworking. And I sat here with Eddie Hearn and I go, oh, your dad. I could tell the way his dad was, that ruthless intensity

clearly rubbed off on him at a young age. And I was reading about how you described your dad, and it seemed to be, dare I say, a little bit similar. Yeah, he was orphaned when he was very young. So he lost his mum when he was five, lost his dad when he was seven. And, of course, for anybody, that's going to have a big impact. And I think it had a life-changing impact on him.

And I think he was then fostered and he tells a story when he was growing up in a foster family. The foster family would eat together and they'd make him eat in another room. And it was tough enough, I guess. And I think that's had a profound effect on who he was and he became somebody who was very much, you know, driven to make his own way.

And I think, you know, that was one of his core, core sort of deep-seated drives and values is that he pushed hard and it was always about being professional. It was all about working hard, make your own way. You know, don't rely on anybody else to do anything for you. it for yourself and um and he drilled that into us and i think we just lived it really and cycling i you were very into cycling from a young age i had used to wait on thursdays for their sort of cycling newspaper to arrive yeah that's cycling weekly yeah little magazine which is a bit of a cult magazine you know quite a niche magazine and

that used to arrive get get delivered on a Thursday. And I'd wait with great anticipation. And, you know, it was one of those when the newspapers came around, you'd get your cycling weekly, and then you'd sit there and read about all the results and who'd done what. Of course, there was nothing on the internet. There was no other way of getting the news, you know. And in the back, there was all these little sections

where all the results were, all the race results. And you'd look to see who'd done what and study it all. It was like a real part of the cycling culture. And still is, to be fair. Cycling Week is still going, despite all of the changes in media and everything else. But for me, it's a real cornerstone of my growing up with the sport, that's for sure.

You then go to school. Do you go to university? No, no, I didn't enjoy school at all. Did you get an apprenticeship? No, no, no. Well, no, I left school when I was 16. Yeah. First day I could leave school, I was out.

I was done. Yeah, I didn't enjoy school. Why? I don't know. I just didn't like being confined. I didn't like having to sit in chemistry lessons. I just didn't enjoy school. Why? I don't know. I just didn't like being confined. I didn't like having to sit in chemistry lessons. And I just didn't.

It wasn't for me. I just didn't enjoy it. And it wasn't that I couldn't do it, I don't think. I just didn't enjoy the environment. I enjoyed the PE and I enjoyed being with my friends and all that kind of stuff. But I didn't, I don't know, I just didn't enjoy that educational. I felt trapped. I felt enclosed. And I don't know, I just didn't enjoy that educational, I felt trapped, I felt enclosed.

And I don't know, I wasn't really motivated to learn at that time. You know, I was off doing other things, really. Do you think because you had so much freedom in your childhood home, you then struggled going to places where you didn't have that same level of freedom? Yeah, well, I certainly like autonomy. There's no doubt about that. And I think it's probably there since childhood, you know I did I did I enjoyed quite a lot of freedom going

up but I think it's quite interesting because somewhere in the back of my mind I knew at some point I was gonna have to go and you know I have to get and learn or yeah felt this kind of responsibility for an education somewhere but I just wasn't ready you know and um and so I thought there was the uh there's what I should do and what I wanted to do I think and there's a little bit what I should do kind of came along and then in the end I sort of thought well actually I I want some freedom I want to explore I want to go on an adventure I want to do something different and so yeah so many of the guests that sit here including jimmy carl's very reminded me of him have that moment usually in their early 20s where they as you've perfectly described it there's

the thing they should do usually what their parents want them to do what society's told them to do and what they want to do and in jimmy's case it was like quit everything and go and be a comedian put getting paid no money because yeah yeah that's what he wanted to do and take all those unpaid gigs for you you set off on a bike yeah to france that was your breaking out of wales moment right yeah and i kind of got this um it didn't happen overnight but slowly but surely i started to really really get passionate about cycling like really the sport of cycling kind of you had the freedom maybe but it was a sport of suffering it was a sport of sacrifice it was it was a tough sport and i liked that and i like the idea that you were there was only you you know this if you could you know it's like the head and heart really if you

if you're intelligent and and you could figure out how to train and then you had the heart and the commitment and the desire and the passion to suffer a little bit and how deep could you go. You know, that attracted me to cycling. So if you were good, you were good. And if you weren't good, you weren't good. And you played a lot of football in all the little, all the junior teams and everything else you were growing up. And there you could have a great game and lose

or you could be, you know, terrible and win. The team could win. And I kind of like the, you know terrible and win the team could win and i kind of like the you know this idea that if what you do really counted in terms of your own performance as it were that sort of chimed me anyway i kind of got this passion for the tour of france and this sort of thing that was kind of happening somewhere in the world. And the more I looked at it, it sort of felt quite gladiatorial and the mountains and, you know, it felt just epic, a three-week race. And all I wanted to do was go and see if I could watch this race. And I got the chance to go and I stood there and I got this passion for it.

And in the end I thought, right, I want to go and try and win that thing. And so I sort of said to my mum that right I'm just going to jack everything in I'm going to go to France and see if I can become a professional cyclist and she was mortified horrified actually but you can't you know what you're thinking you can't do all this kind of stuff and I said to my dad I said listen I'm going to jack it all in I'm going to go and he went yes

he loved it yeah and that's all I needed to my dad, I said, listen, I'm going to jack it all in. I'm going to go. And he went, yes. He loved it. Yeah, and that's all I needed to hear, you know. Once I heard that, then I was like, right, it's okay, I'm going. And so I got a single ticket to Grenoble and got my bike and a cardboard box, rucksack, 700 quid, and got a ticket to Bangor Station in North Wales, and off I went. I don't think I'd ever really kind of had to cross. I remember having to cross London on the Tube

with my bike in a box and rucksack. That was a real ordeal for me. Got down to Dover, crossed on a ferry, got to Calais and I was sitting there and somebody came along and said, you know, do you want a coffee or whatever or a drink on the train? And it kind of dawned on me then i've got a clue what's going on here i was trying to find out i wanted to go to a place called argentia that was my destination and um i didn't know there was two so there's two argentia as it

turns out so i went i was trying to ask this guy um to buy a ticket to argentia and he was he's just being awkward you know he could see i couldn't speak french and obviously he wasn't making much of an effort either and then these two quite young guys came along and they said oh can we help you you know we can speak french and english and i'm like oh thanks so they helped out it turned out they were polish and they were two lads trying to defect from poland because we're still communist and they were trying to get into university in in Grenoble and so the very first night I had in France we slept head to toe sleeping bags on this thing and these two Polish like they were petrified any kind of steps or something come in footsteps they jump up rise and like we're gonna get caught

anyway so I jumped on a train six o'clock in morning, jumped on a train to where I thought I was going and I actually ended up in Switzerland. Fucking hell. So I was a bit, yeah, I was like, whoa. By which time the phone had worn off. I must admit. So I got the train, the same train back to Grenoble again, spent my second night on the same platform,

the same bench. And then eventually the next day got to where I wanted to go in Argentia and whoa, that was a bit of an ordeal but why were you going there anyway? what was the aim of when you arrived at that destination? I just wanted to be a professional cyclist I wanted to find a way of getting

into a professional cycling team and you know I think there's no how do you do that? I mean back in the day when cycling was very much a niche sport in Britain, there wasn't any obvious kind of route. So the club structure, the amateur club structure in France was very, very strong.

And they were like feeder teams, sort of professional teams. So if you get over there and get yourself in an amateur team, and if you're any good, you'd work your way up. So I thought, right, that's what I'm going to do. Did you have a meeting arranged with an amateur team? No so you just showed up so i just went yeah and then i so i looked for the end of a i looked for went to the end of a race waited till everybody arrived and you know finished the race and they're all there's a car didn't have the buses back in those days those cars were there and they came and so i looked around chose the nicest kit as you would

chose the nicest kit seemed like a good start and I went up to them and asked if I could race and they kind of what? they were like what? and kind of chuckled and they thought

it was a bit odd and then he sort of passed me on to the next team and the next team and the next team and eventually I spoke to one like little group

and a guy came over and he said oh look we're he spoke English and he said we're from look, we're, he spoke English. And he said, we're from Saint-Etienne. And if you can get yourself over to Saint-Etienne, we train as a whole team together on Wednesday. He wrote me down the address and said, right,

come to me at nine o'clock on a Wednesday. You can come train with us. So I started training with them and that was it. I lived there for three years then. Three years. And eventually, you know, you admit that you realised at some point you weren't going to make it. You weren't going to win the... Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that was a shame. But then I look back on it now and I think if I'd have known now, you know, people say, what would you change? You know, if I could go back in time, I think if I knew what I know now in terms of training and nutrition and everything

else i'm you know i'm pretty sure i could have done a much better job but i decided for some bizarre reason i decided i didn't want to um particularly didn't want to really reduce my fat intake and just just eat carbohydrate and hardly any protein and so i stopped um i stopped eating meat i became you know vegetarian and then i realised now I was just nailed all the time. So I never really optimised the chance that I had, which kind of makes me think now when I get younger, you know, young, talented athletes or people want to try out and you can't just leave them alone, you know,

just talent alone not always going to get you there, is it? You know, and they need, you need to be in the right environment. Same as medication. When I was young growing up, I'm? You know, you need to be in the right environment. Same as my education. When I was young growing up, you know, I'm a bright enough guy, I think. I just wasn't ready to learn. I wasn't in the right environment to learn. I could have learned, but I didn't learn at the time. And I kind of reflect quite a lot on that really now

in terms of creating the right environment to people, to be able to just progress. You know, what's it take for a human being to progress? And progress and you know i think my role is to try and create those environments and support people to do that really i think take a lot of learnings from that you know i want to get to some of those key learnings that you've had um to to take a step forward in your story you then off go to university which is actually quite surprising you do a sports science degree for a couple of years yeah it was early years of sports science it was kind of developing you know and the idea of sports nutrition was developing the idea of sports psychology was just developing and i started to read around this i thought god i love this stuff

i absolutely i couldn't get enough i couldn't get enough so the idea of eventually when I realized I wasn't going to be good enough to you know make the make the top end of professional cycling I thought right well I'll go back now because I would really want to learn and so I went back to university and I was just absolutely wasn't interested in anything to do with like freshers week or going out I just wanted to learn and that was it so i met every every one of the lecturers asked if i could have a meeting and said right i want you to tell me how you're going to teach me i want to make sure that i learn as much as possible how are you going to do that and of course i've gone back since and they're a bit full on you're in terms and um and so i came

out of that and i i loved i absolutely loved every minute of being at university loved it I loved meeting other people I love people that got the same passion it was a topic that I just couldn't get enough of I loved the psychology and the sports psychology and and I came out of all of that and really wanted to go in sort of pursue the sports psychology area but it just felt at the time it was too fluffy it was you know the top pro teams weren't really it's too it's like all too macho to talk about you know psychology and so it wasn't getting traction at times I thought god I'm not sure if I could make a career out of this so I ended up I worked a bit longer in I went back in and worked in the cycle industry.

And then I decided to go and do an MBA. I thought I don't know anything about business. I really don't know anything about business. So I thought I'd like to know about that. So I went back to Sheffield Business School and did an MBA. And same there, I just wanted to, I wanted to learn. So I think if you're motivated to learn and want to learn, it changes, something changes in your mind, doesn't it? It's amazing to hear that.

Yeah, like absolutely something changed. If you can, I don't know, if you unlock the desire, you're not learning because it's, you're not learning because you have to or it's not learning because it's a must-do kind of thing, but you're learning because you want to and then the whole process, life's learning, isn't it? Life's all about learning, really.

And so I think if you can unlock that, then you're onto something. And luckily, I think I did. And then eventually the first contact I had with the British Olympic program was back in 1997 with a guy called Peter Keane. And Atlanta, Britain won one gold medal, I think, in the entire Olympic Games, which is ridiculously bad.

I mean, it's so bad. It's like, I can't even imagine how that happened. But they did anyway. And at that point, John Major bought in the National Lottery with a view that half of the money, half of the profit was going to go into culture and the arts and the rest was going to go into sport. And the real kind of

goal of sport was to get the country up the olympic table which was unheard of you know it's like they were all amateur governing bodies it was like a dream scenario and um and cycling was very very fortunate that they had a guy at the time called peter keen very very bright guy visionary guy and he wrote a beautiful plan, an amazing, amazing plan. Then I kind of met him in and around 1997. I got my own little consultancy business at the time and I started to help out and I got more engaged. And I thought, God, this is a combination of everything I've done

sort of in my life, really. You know, you've got the sporting sporting side the performance planning side you've got the psychology of it all it's new it's like could be a first time ever kind of scenario the ambition is amazing and there's a bit of business wrapped in there as well you know so it's i just saw that i thought right i'm getting my elbows out and i'm not missing that chance you know it's like i thought right this is my calling and i'm going for it. I love, so much of that I wanted to pick up on. The point you made first about learning, it resonates so strongly with me again.

I was kicked out of school, but just exceptionally obsessed with learning as an adult. And it goes to, speaks to the fact that the reason my attendance was 30% in school was I was being pushed to walk down an alley I didn't want to walk down. Yeah, exactly, exactly. You know what I mean?

Yeah, totally. And everyone's unmotivated when you try and get them to do something that they intrinsically don't want to do, right? And this is, I think, a lot of the problem with the schooling system. But when I, as you were talking, I was reflecting all of these messages I get from kids

who like label themselves as unmotivated, but in whose eyes, right? In the eyes of their parents who want them to be a doctor or in the eyes of society that wants them to do a nine to five. But I reject the idea that they are unmotivated. A million percent, I couldn't agree more. You know, I've worked with a lot of people over the years

and I think you've got to find out what's an individual's intrinsic motivation, what's driving somebody inside, what they really want to do. And you've got to unleash that in the end. know that's what life's about isn't it really there's nobody there shouldn't be any we shouldn't be pigeonholed and and there shouldn't be lines and lanes and i'm very very very lucky that i try and get to help other people be the best version of themselves basically and you think you, you know, when you no longer compete for yourself

and you think, right, I'm going to be judged on somebody else's performance, that's what people judge me on. They go, like, well, did somebody else win a race? Not me. I can't, you know, I'm never going to win a race. But it's like, did somebody else win a race? And then you realize, well, if I'm going to be judged on somebody else's performance, I better get pretty good at understanding how to optimize and help somebody be the best they could possibly

be and then you think well what what does that look like how do you that what where's the where's what is that you know and that's where you think well let's take the human being as a as a as a thing you think how do you get help a human being be the best they could possibly be are there certain things that if you can generally get those things right it helps an individual in the main be the best version themselves but the first thing you're asked is like is that person what is that person's internal intrinsic drive because if it's not aligned it's not really committed and really driven and excited to what you'd like them to be it doesn't matter how much you'd like them to be if they're not they're not and there's nothing you can do about that you know but if there's a

little bit of a flicker of of of the light burning there you can turn that up i think you can turn it down you can very easily turn it off by mistake or deliberately if you're that way minded but i think you do the very essence of people achieving things is is they've got to be driven or they've got there's got to be a reward i mean avoiding you know avoidance is very very strong motivator as well i think and you know maybe i had to argue that maybe in my life I was avoiding failure or rather than being dragged towards the positive emotion of winning. The positive emotion of winning for me isn't that great, unfortunately. I wish it was.

But avoiding failure is a massive driver for me. And so either way, you figure out what somebody's drive is and then you help them. Then you think about what you need to do to create the environment around somebody to optimise what they're doing. And then you've really got to put yourself in somebody else's shoes and forget yourself, forget your preschool concept. Really genuinely say, right, I'm going to stand in this person's shoes,

I'm going to try and see what life looks like for them and feel what life looks like for them and feel what life life looks like for them and really understand regardless of what any preconceptions I might have what what does that feeling look like and what do they need what would the best thing I could do what do they need to help or support the more you go through that the more more you kind of recognise we're all different, but there are some common denominators deep down inside, I think. And if you take the time to listen to people, they might not want to tell you first and foremost,

but if you dig away at it, you know, eventually people will tell you what works for them, what they like, what they don't like. And if you listen carefully, you know, people, give them a bit of ownership and they'll tell you, you know. And that is probably one of the most powerful drivers, I think, that exists, really. You know, you can put a gun to somebody's head, ask them to jump up and down, they'll jump up and down.

You cock the trigger and say, jump higher, they'll jump higher. Or they'll try to anyway. And then you pull it away and you walk away and they're not going to that that is not a pleasant experience it's used a lot and it's used a lot in sport actually and so less so now but certainly has been in the past and um but your performance is going to be inconsistent i think through that and it's certainly not going to be a very pleasurable experience and and i think by going down the route of trying to find people's carrots as it were i mean you'll have known i'm

sure you've i think you've you've interviewed steve and you see an amazing guy i am believe and um and his work i think is just phenomenal and something i buy into but i do believe that it's carrot not the stick on that point point of finding out what their true motivation is, what they truly want, and checking that it's aligned with yours as a coach or as a team, if you ask somebody, they'll typically give you what they think you want to hear. So if I was sat in front of you and you asked me

and I was new to your team, I'd say, I want to be a world champion because I think that's what you want to hear. How do you see past that? I'm asking this because a lot of people have people in their lives, whether it's a friend or a sibling or son or a daughter who they're trying to motivate to be something and often failing because they want it more than that person wants it for themselves. How do you see past that? Is there a technique? Is it just intuitive? Well, I think you've got to you know as soon as i sit

down in some in front of somebody and they think okay this guy's got some kind of influence over what happens to me then it's biased immediately yeah and of course if you don't recognize that if i just take at face value what people are telling me now then that's um it's naive i think really and i think you've got to go beyond that, like you say. And I think most people will have a network. And, you know, and you can identify, if you watch the spheres of influence or the kind of who's influencing who and who has good relationships with who,

you know, if I ask you now what your drivers are in this scenario, in the scenario we're currently in, you'll kind of think about what you're going to say, really. Yeah, yeah. Whereas I think if I took, give me a couple of weeks i think i could piece together slowly but surely by chatting to you chatting to other people asking the right questions giving you some time you know different different kind of environments and some formal some informal slowly but surely you you could piece together a relatively good picture of where you think somebody's at.

Is it a person who's driven by, you know, like order and discipline and process? Or is it somebody who wants harmony? Is it somebody who wants to be life and soul of the party and out there and express themselves? Or is it equally somebody who, you know, wants to please others? And if it is pleasing others, then who is it? It's the parents.

Quite often I see that, really. And then, you know, you just piece it all together. And once you have that, then you're armed with information. You're armed with something which is you should really then respond and think carefully about, you know, what is this person all about? You know, can you draw a map of somebody? Can you really map out somebody's drivers who they are what do you think their their influences are what they really

want what's their you know what's pulling them and what's pushing them and um and i think when you get into that kind of realm of high performers and people who are really pushing themselves to extreme levels there's something pulling or pushing them pretty hard normally and trying to just understand that and dig a little bit around that at least like i say it gives you the you know i think it's an obligation for somebody in our kind of roles as it were to make that effort to make sure you do take the time to fully understand somebody have you encountered instances in your career where someone's got so much talent but they're just lacking in drive and no matter what

you've done 100 yeah and what do you do in those situations well in our world you wouldn't work with them you know i wouldn't work with them i'd support them and be very very you know not not unpleasant or unkind or everything else but it's not going to work. That's the, you know, you have to have, you have to have that commitment and that drive and, you know, that's got to be there. If that's not there, then don't go past square one, really. You know, when you're young, you know, you can perform and get to a very high standard

on your talent. But then when you get to the top of the top, as it were, and there's maybe five or six people who have a similar level of talent and some can get the best out of themselves and get that little bit. You know, it's like you can get a normal kind of high level of performance and then every now and again you get this like discretionary level of performance, that little bit on top thinking, wow, that was absolutely me or you at your best. And we're not in the business of that you know the high level

performance we're in the business of trying to get that discretionary performance as often as possible when it really matters and that's what you know that's what we've really got to think about and it's unlikely that you'll get their own talent alone and even in the most sort of out there

sort of talent who can be flamboyant or do the unexpected, et cetera, they've nearly all, they're all committed and very, very, very bought into and driven by what they're doing. That word commitment is the first letter in your acronym CORE, which is a philosophy you're known for. What is this CORE philosophy? What is that acronym and what does it stand for?

To be fair to, you know, I just mentioned Steve Peters. I think, you know, one of the great things, I think, that I've been very, very fortunate to have happen in my life was that I met Steve back in, I think it was 2002, something like that, you know, around that. I was always into you know I'd like the psychology obviously I'd studied psychology but I couldn't quite it wasn't quite input output enough it wasn't I don't know it didn't feel quite solid enough at times

and then we had an athlete who had you know had a bit of an issue and somebody within our medical team had been a student of Steve's at the School of Medicine in Sheffield. And they said, well, we could ask this guy to come across. And he did. And he did this amazing piece of work with his athletes. I thought, wow, I've really got to meet this guy. And so I sat down with Steve. And he's a psychiatrist, not a psychologist, obviously, a forensic psychiatrist.

And he sat down and he said, right, well, here's my mental kind of map, as it were, and this is how your brain works and this is the different parts of your brain. Think differently and, you know, you do realise that this different, your blood goes to different areas and you'll be driven by emotion or logic or by past experiences, et cetera. And I was like, oh, okay, this is really interesting. And what I liked about him, he was like, if you do this, then that.

And you should do this, not that. And he's quite prescriptive in a very neutral way, but quite strong. And I really liked that, really, really liked that. So I thought, wow, this guy would be absolutely dynamite in sport. And so Steve was still working in the NHS and he was actually working at Rampton at the time as well with, you know, the mass murderers and the psychopaths and all that. And so I tried to persuade him.

I said, Steve, come on, you've got to come and work in sport. And eventually, you know, he did, to be fair. He came and worked full time and it was just an amazing period really because we sat down and said, right, forget cycling for a minute. Let's think about the human brain, the human being and how do we create the best possible environment for people to perform? And that's where the core principle came from with Steve in the first instance. So it was like, you know, the C was commitment.

So let's screen these people for commitment and you do a commitment screen and he'd ask people about their homework, how they did their homework and what, you know, when people had to do something, deliver on something, he'd ask, he'd interrogate them a little bit about that. And then the O of the call was for ownership and the idea that we, we, a human will perform better and respond better with a little bit of ownership over what they're doing.

So, you know, sport was very much a dictate and control kind of coaching model, really, and management model. And he was very much of the, you know, very, very strong that as a human, we like to have a little bit of control of what's happening to us. We like to negotiate or have a little say, this works, that works. And that's a very powerful kind of construct to work with. The R was for responsibility and accountability. And of course, we've all worked in professional jobs in the end and we've all got accountability and responsibility in life.

And so people need to be held accountable and responsible and then the e was for excellence but it's personal excellence and as he used to joke about it should have been personal excellence but it sounded a bit like corpse so we stuck with core and um and so we got all the coaches in and said i bought this 100 really really thought right we're going to do this and then we'll sort of use cycling as the kind of, you know, it was the opportunity to do something different, you know. And I was absolutely sure, really, really sure it was the right thing to be doing. And, of course, he was there to sort of coach and help and support.

And so we got our coaches in and said, right, guys, we're going to change the way we're working here. We we're going to put the the time actually we termed it going to take the crown off the heads of the coaches and put them onto the heads of the riders and they're going to be the come the kings and queens of their own world their own destiny and we're going to support them in that and it was just that slight change of emphasis, which, you know, a lot of the coaches threw their arms in the air, well, well, they'd be out of control, they wouldn't turn up to training, and, you know, it was kind of an emotional response, really.

And, of course, you know, Chris Hoy and Vicky Pendleton and all these other, you know, all of the athletes who were with us at the time, they wanted to perform for themselves. They wouldn't perform for a coach. They might have a brilliant relationship with a coach, but they were after their own performance or a team performance. It wasn't done for the coach. And it was a real, I mean, it sounds a bit obvious now, I guess,

but at the time it felt like quite a big deal to be really empowering a group of athletes. And yeah, and off we went with that really. And it was an exciting time. One of the things that I've taken from that, many things, but one of the things that I've taken from that, which is, again, feels really consistent throughout lots of things I've read about you,

is this idea of going back to first principles to create better solutions. And I'll tell you the three touch points where I've kind of I've I've seen that in your philosophy the first is you basically went down to the first principles of the human brain there and said how does the human brain work and let's treat the human brain in a better way outside of the conventional way of treating the human brain to get a better outcome. That's like, again, with first principles, it's a lot of work. No one wants to do it. Convention is much easier. The second thing is just generally your attitude to breaking down what you were trying to achieve as a team into small sections. That's where I see the first

principles thing. And the third thing was I read that you hired younger coaches into a team that weren't tainted with convention. And again, they're much easier to train in new ways. Is that? Yes, I think in the main. I think I do like to break things down into the smallest component parts, or first principles anyway. It's not copy and paste.

Yeah. And I read a lot and I'm constantly kind of reading and listening to podcasts. I'm constantly taking information in. And I'll use some of the information, but I won't just copy and paste it. I won't just apply it. It's contextual.

I'd like to understand what's going on behind it. I'd like to understand the theory and the thinking. It drives people mad, actually, because I can talk about methods and whatnot and models all day long, you know. But fundamentally, it's how I like to work. And I think it's like the true, take it down to its kind of deepest,

sort of simplest level of understanding, and then construct it relative to the context of a situation, how it could best apply to what you're doing. And take the time, you know, take the time and effort and the energy and the, you know, I just's like to think about it and i'll draw it i'll draw non-stop so i don't write so much i draw and then i cover my office wall in like sticky plastic stuff and draw over walls looks like a madman's in there i must admit but it's how it's what i like to do and it's how i work and it drives a couple of people i work with a bit crazy but um I think they're used to it by now but but I do like

to do that and then and then if you get a real understanding for something then you can you can see whether you really agree with a with the fundamental principles and either go with what go with that or question it and develop your own ideas and like development if you're going to develop your own ideas do it sort of um with originally as it were rather than necessarily just kind of um taking something as well and just applying it you know i'm not i'll be a bit uncomfortable with i think one of the things that definitely felt very original when i was reading about um your philosophy is this idea of forgetting about the results because thinking about the results or the outcome of your performance can reduce the chances of success in that performance.

That's very unusual because in teams, in competition, in business, we think about the result, we think about closing the deal and what that will mean. And we kind of imagine ourselves in that moment of getting the medal around our neck or that business deal won.

Why is that not a good idea? Well, if an event happens or something happens, the first thing that's going to happen to you without you even knowing is you're going to have an unconscious emotional reaction to it. And it's emotion. You're not thinking it through. It's just purely emotion.

And that's going to be, you know, either it's sort of a fight, flight, freeze response, really. But that emotional response will happen quicker than you know it before you can go in and get any logic or get any rationale into it. And, of course, in any kind of situation like, you know, what could be perceived as a threat state where you're putting yourself in some kind of threatening scenario, be it damage my pride or or you know what people what happens to people they start thinking well what what happens if i win why must i lose why must i look ridiculous i don't look ridiculous

i'm under threat and that then becomes you know very easily to get emotionally hijacked by that so then you're purely running on emotion which is inconsistent inconsistent. It's illogical. You know, it's not a good way for you to be basing. It's not a good place for you to be basing your behavior. But if you understand that and you think, okay, well, look, I understand that. It's normal that I'm going to put myself in a threatening scenario. So if I worry about, let my emotion take over and I worry about what happens if I succeed, what happens if I succeed, what happens if I fail, what happens if this, what happens if that, then it's actually pointless exercise.

And if you can train, slowly recognize and train your mind to go, okay, I know what's happening here. This is just emotion. I'm going to put it to one side. Now then, let me separate this, whatever I'm doing out into two things. We can have a dream. I want to win the Tour de France. It's a dream. My ability to win it or our ability or anybody else's to win it is I'm going to do my absolute best to try and win it. But other people are going to try and stop me and other people are going to try and do something.

And it's stuff beyond our control that can impact on that. So if you set your goal as I'm going to win, you're going to agitate nonstop because it actually is out of your control. Whereas if you set your dream and say, and this is what I'd really, really like to happen, I'll go all in, I'll do everything I can. I'm fully committed to that. But let me break it down into targets, which is, well, I could get to the ideal weight. I could do the proper training. I could do the, you know, follow a nutritional plan that's going to give me the optimal energy.

And, you know, I can train my tactics. I can really work hard to get a fantastic team around me, build good rapport, build confidence in my teammates. These are all things that you can do. And so if you say, okay, let's leave the dream over there for a while, but I'm going to go after the things I can do, and you base your plan around the things that you can actually control and do you'll be on fire you'll be on fire you'll be absolutely on fire and the dream might happen and it might not and you'll be absolutely oh you know

delighted and best thing ever if it happens and if it doesn't then you might be absolutely devastated but you've got to leave it as a dream and you've got to understand that actually worrying about the consequence of an event is detrimental to the process and the performance and the chances of you achieving that event so you park that go after your targets and go right i'm going process not outcome and we talked a lot about process not outcome and when you catch yourselves you know it's emotion in the end so of course we do, we do get hijacked. And, of course, we do get fearful or, you know, a bit panicked. And you've got to have a system whereby you can talk to yourself a little bit. You can bring yourself back around and focus on the now and the process of now rather than worrying about the future.

And then you can come back and concentrate on the process, get back into the now. And, you know, some of the athletes would have a routine where they'd tie the salute undo and tie the shoelaces again or they do they'd have a little you know a little process that they'd tap into and they'd go into that in into that and bring their mind back into the present and stop worrying about the future and of course the penalty kicks the best example yeah that's what i was thinking about ronaldo stood there yeah i'm sure sure they bag 100% in training but in the

Euros final exactly, you know if you take the crowd out take a penalty, those guys are so accurate you know the signal from the brain down into the muscle to contract in a certain way that happens and the accuracy and the repeatability of that is absolutely massive

put a crowd in there what changes nothing changes physically it's all between your ears and so how can you train that you know and the mental skills can be trained just as much as you know we all know that but we want to get fit and strong and you go to the gym and you know that you're going to overload your body and you give it time to adapt and it's adaptation that's going to make it a little bit stronger and it's the same with a mind you know you can train your mind and and i think that's what certainly working with steve was uh was an eye opener as well as i think probably the biggest eye opener for most

people is it gives you a once you realize you've got like an emotional brain and a logical brain and um you know a bit of a memory computer side going on then then it gives you insight into yourself and why you are behaving and feeling like you are and bit of a memory computer side going on, then it gives you insight into yourself and why you are behaving and feeling like you are and some of the assumptions you're making about other people. Then you've got to start with yourself first. If you can get that little bit of insight, why do I feel how I'm feeling?

Why do I respond like I do? What triggers me? What's my best self look like? And what's my sort of, you know, not the best self look like? Why am I different? Why sometimes am I what's my sort of, you know, not the best self. Why am I different? Why sometimes am I behaving in this kind of, you know, this second or shadow version of myself? And why am I sometimes in my best self?

What's happening there? Why can't I just be my best self all the time? Surely that must be doable. So take a bit of time to understand it and pick it. And some people just maybe haven't been educated. I certainly wasn't until really I sort of stopped and started to look at this stuff and then you realize i think wow a lot of my behavior a lot of my life was driven by emotion it wasn't driven by the real me who could be calm and logical and think things through and quite you know a lot of passion and feelings and caring and and yet at

times i could be something else, you know. And I think understanding that's fundamental, I think. I don't think there's any excuse for that. No, I agree. Both points sounded very similar, in fact, because on one hand you're saying with your goals, only go after the things you can control, like really focus on those things.

And in the same way, when we're talking about personal responsibility of self, you're saying you can't control other people. So, yeah, but the thing that, you you know maybe you do have control over in your life is your behavior how you act how you conduct yourself and then kind of leave the rest well i think you don't understand how other people are responding and how they're feeling so you can accept that if somebody's um you know somebody's in a very well it's two things really i think first and foremost ambition is a big thing not to forget you know what's your level you know you can be incredibly ambitious why can't we be the best in the world at something why can't be the first to do something what's stopping us doing

something that nobody else in the human race has ever done before nothing as far as i can see you know so i think there's a it's you know you've got to have the ambition enthusiasm the belief we can do whatever we want to do you know and really stretch that and then I think the next bit really the target is more like the how to get there yeah it's more like the boring stuff to get there you know so it's a it's like head and heart really and um and I think that if you understand yourself then you should be able to put yourself in somebody else's shoes and if they're having a tough time or if somebody else is angry or there's something else going on with them, you know, rather than just dive in and respond to the behavior you're seeing

at face value, why not stop and think about it a little bit? And is this person in trouble? What's causing this? Where are they coming from? What's going on? You know, try and understand it. And if they're just responding emotionally to something and you allow yourself to immediately respond emotionally back, doesn't really get anywhere you know so so you'd better

hold back and wait and find out and try anyway not always easy but not always easy no no i struggle with that yeah i struggle with that especially being in a environment where my my time is so feels so precious right it's always there's so many things I could be doing and you're exactly the same. I know people that work with you. I know you're a very, very busy person. So it's tough in the moment to stop and pause and to have patience when the rest of my life

is ran on efficiency. Yeah. You know what I mean? It's difficult. Yeah. I guess in my world, I I'm out to try and help people and I do push people and we've got high standards

and you know you do want to level I don't like laziness for example I just can't that would really that gets me

you know but then I have to manage it and think okay well if that's what they want there's no problem this isn't the environment for them you know

but in the main I think understanding challenges and setting standards and boundaries and working to all of that is important. You built teams and developed teams that won over and over and over again in the same way that Sir Alex Ferguson did.

I'm a Manchester United fan, so I was lucky enough to be, you know, it's not going so well lately, but in that era to watch our team win over and over again yeah yeah yeah and the thing that really um I find because I just thought that was normal growing up that my team wins all the time yeah the thing I find amazing now when I look back on it is how he managed to reinvent those teams but also to get the same team to win again. And this idea of like, where is your motivation after victory? And how do you get a team that's just won, and then they win again, and they win again, to win again? Where do they find the motivation? They've stood on the podium,

they've had the moment. Where does that come from? Yeah, it's a great question, that one. And I think credit to Sir Alex and the work that he did. I mean, you know, I think now looking back, there are those long-serving, successful managers who, like you say, whilst it's happening, it's an era and nobody really kind of thinks too much. It's just the norm. But then when you realise it's not actually the norm at all, you know, it's something very, very special going on.

And I think success is interesting in terms of what it does to people. And, you know, I think in sport we're kind of more geared to failure, really. You lose more than you win normally. And, you know, we kind of recalibrate the goals, dust yourself down and redo your plan and off you go again. But when you succeed, all of a sudden, not many people have a plan for success. Do you know what I mean? So you succeed.

Nobody wants to tempt fate, I guess. But not many people have a plan for success. And it does impact on people massively in terms of their expectation on themselves, in terms of their hunger going forward. You know, it does impact people in different ways. And of course, you get more, you probably get financially better off.

Your position in society changes, you know, who you are, you become a celebrity whatever whatever whatever and of course all that all that can change and impact on your drive and your hunger and i think fundamentally that's the bit that's incredible about the people who stay at the top for a long time it's not really the reward and you know what they what they're getting sort of financially and all you know all of those are the kind of sort of trappings of success. I don't think that's what's driving them. You know, there's something else deeper down

driving those people forward and they'll just keep going and going and going. And I thought what Alex Ferguson did ever so well was he, there's always a challenge with teams when you've got a generation who grow together and they come together and you'll have two, three, four years of amazing success with teams when you've got a generation who grow together and they come together and you have two, three, four years of amazing success with a group who've bonded and they're on a journey together.

And, of course, then you start to get towards the end of that and at what point do you bring young talent in and let some of the more established talent go? And there's a transition. And he did that ever so well. He really did that ever so well. And we met and chatted a couple of times about that. When I was younger, up in the velodrome in Manchester,

he'd pop over to the velodrome and we'd sit there and chat, and that was always one of the big things I wanted to ask him. It was like, okay, what are you watching? What are you seeing? Why are you doing this? What have you seen there that makes you think that's the right time to change and you're bringing this youngster in here, you know?

And he'd say, you know, he'd quite often say that, you know, people get a bigger voice, they get a bigger stand in the dressing room, they might start a second, you know, I'm not so sure about that cafe, you know, and they'd have an influence and, you know, there'd be the celebrity, the media and other things going on, et cetera, et cetera. And definitely sooner rather than later, that would be right, okay, off we go. And he'd change it.

Listening to him talk about it, he knew exactly what he was doing, to be fair to him. And he was a master at it. You've got to have had moments like that in your career where you see that culture at threat or at risk because of an individual. I've had them in my business too. And in those moments, very early in my career,

I would try and, I guess, look past, when I was a bit more naive in business, look past it or put things in place to try and mitigate the impact, the negative impact that one individual was having on the overall culture. And as I got older, I realized that I just needed to address the overall culture and as i got older i realized that i just needed to address the situation asap before it becomes like a virus and spreads right yeah yeah what do you do in that situation where you see an individual in your company it's a tough one it really is i mean it's an easy one to talk about it's a very difficult one to do

um particularly when you know that might be your best player, your best rider, your best performer. And all of a sudden you've got the hitting the numbers and the behavior's not great. And then you've got to ask yourself, well, are we after just winning? And it doesn't really matter, just win. And you kind of manage the impact of that across everybody. Or does behavior and conduct and culture matter and you want to make sure that you actually you've got some cultural values that you're going to stand by

come come what may you know and and of course those real moments when they do arrive and you've got to address it they're very very stressful i kind of get very introspective and look at myself in the mirror and think it through and think it through. And everybody who works for me will say it takes me time to make a decision because I think of every permutation and I think it through so much. Emotionally, I don't think I can't, actually.

I'm just so engaged with those things that I've really, really got to think carefully about them. And I've had to make a couple of pretty big decisions along those lines. And in the end, I thought, right, what do I believe in? Is it a popular decision? Is it a performance decision? In my world, you know, there's like, we're trying to win here or do we want to keep people happy or where do we go?

And you need some kind of, you need to establish your own, right, what do I believe in? And without really figuring out what you believe in, you're always going to be caught in a storm otherwise. And it's always going to be mentally excruciating, I think, because you're never quite sure. So I like to anchor myself in, right, what are my values? What do I believe in?

And how does that apply to this situation and then okay well that's it and if it goes wrong i always want to be able to look back and said okay well i make decisions based on my principles i didn't make decisions based on that particular moment doesn't matter how difficult it was and i'll stick to that and i've had one quite recently actually or two actually in the last two to three months, which were pretty challenging decisions like that. And on both occasions, I've gone right back. And I tend to, I don't know if it's a good thing,

probably not a good thing for the people around me, but I've got a few, you know, people I really value their opinion, you know, and they're sort of like, you know, I'll chat away to them and I'll ask them questions. And I think sometimes I think, okay, I'm going to make that decision or he's asking me to make this decision and what i'm trying to do is just kind of run through my thought processes and sound it out sound it out sound it out sound it out until i get really pretty anchored onto no i know what i really feel now and then i'll make the decision immediately i won't hesitate then but to get to that point takes me a bit of time I need to talk

about it to somebody I need to I need to express it vocally I think to really make sure I understand what I'm thinking because if I can't explain it to somebody I'm maybe not quite there so just thinking about it in my own head or even writing it down for myself on big stuff I like to try and be able to explain it to somebody to then understand fully that i really if i can explain it to somebody i think i've pretty much got it whereas if i just in my head explain it to myself that's what the hell i'm talking about you know so yeah it's quite um it's a quite an agonizing process but you just need your principles in the end you need the decision making framework framework yeah you do yeah it's so. Because everyone can relate to that,

even if they've not been in your position. I mean, we all face really tough moments, but we kind of arrive at that pass and we have to decide if we're going left or right. And the worst possible thing is often making no decision, right? Making no decision or making a decision that you thought was the right decision because you thought it was the right thing to do,

but it wasn't actually what you thought. And I think we're always fearful of the consequences of our decisions i think quite often you know i say to our guys sometimes okay imagine let's let's imagine we've got a problem and take away you know we're going to have a group discussion about something and imagine that all of our riders didn't have emotions they were just robots and what would you do and they go simple you well you just do this this and this okay so now we put the emotions back in then that's that's what's that doing to you why is that changing your thinking and then of course you don't you know got people's feelings and then you might have conflict you might somebody might not

be happy and you know that that then impacts because we're trying to second guess the emotional response of a group or he's trying to second guess how somebody might feel or whether we're trying to second guess the emotional response of a group or we're trying to second guess how somebody might feel or whether they're going to come at you or it creates conflict. So I think every now and again I go, right, okay, let's just stop the robots. What would we do? What would be the best thing to do? And they go, simple, we'll just do this. And so that's one thing.

I think if you think that right, the consequence of whatever we decide about, nothing bad happens. Nothing bad happens. Absolutely. So you can make any decision you want and nothing happens. Nothing bad happens.

What would you do? And people's mind freed up immediately and they'll make a good decision probably. But it's fear or it's the it's the it's the it's the consequence of this might happen or that might happen or it might go wrong or this or that or the other they might not be happy or they might not be and it impacts your decision making really so you get all these biases these emotional biases all the time and don't get me wrong sometimes a gut gut feel is a good thing you know so but on the other hand

i think if you strip out the consequence of like nothing bad would happen and also people's other people's emotions what would you do most people get pretty quickly to yeah where they'd want to be you know i just a bit then in my head about some of the big decisions i have in my life i thought well if there was no if i was dealing with robots and i could just shuffle things without consequence yeah what would i do exactly and And the answer you're seeing there is probably the right thing for the objective. Exactly. But maybe, well, you could also say,

well, there's emotional consequences which might hinder the objective. So if I really annoy this person or if I upset the balance here, then the objective's compromised. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. It just helps a little bit

in the end you know it's like well it's like taking out if you've got bad tooth you've got to take it out might as well take it out quick yeah it's gonna hurt just as much in a couple months time you know so you might as well take it out now yeah marginal gains i do you know what i have to say this podcast is doing very well uh i think it's maybe number one in europe now but i have to give you a lot of credit for that because i think my team are sick and tired i can see them laughing over there they're sick and tired of me saying this phrase we've got to find the one percent and for us in what we do with this podcast i mean it's it's in my businesses as well but in this podcast it means like really giving a f about everything from the audio to these eight cameras that are on us nobody else does it like

we do it with eight cameras and the robots and this and the thumbnail the title the way you were picked up today yeah to how you leave to really make even when you walk in that we were a little bit slow on it today but the music to create the right atmosphere yeah the lighting we've installed these blinds here because we're trying to we want you looking at me because it's all of these small things and i never heard that directly from you but i heard it indirectly by you as in my friends would tell me about this thing called marginal gains from this guy called david david bralford and i like adopted it as a personal philosophy maybe i adopted it as a personal philosophy or it made my existing philosophy make sense okay yeah yeah probably either one you know sometimes here and i do you get that yeah that's yeah that's a great way to or it made my existing philosophy make sense. Okay, yeah. Yeah, probably. Either one. You know, sometimes you hear an idea

and you go, that's a great way to... Somebody articulates it. Exactly, you articulated it for me. And so thank you for that. But I guess my question, because that has genuinely really helped me communicate why small things are so important. But as it relates to marginal gains,

how marginal? Ah, good question. And how marginal was... Smile's marginal. Sorry smiles marginal sorry a smile's marginal yeah okay oh good i like probably your best marginal gain ever smile at people more often cheapest and easiest yeah exactly and people like it people smile back i wonder what the trajectory how that impacts your trajectory through life if you just smiled more a lot yeah i'd have thought so you know we're'd be more approachable. People think you're a friendly person, you know, just in the main, you know, smile at people,

smile at each other, say hello, and walk past. You know, you're not so, you can't be all so consumed in your head that you're walking around with your head down and ignoring people, which was very easy to do. You know, somebody says hello,

oh, hello. That's a marginal gain right there. People don't value the small stuff though. They focus too much on the big stuff, right? Well, I think you've got to get the basics right. You know, I says hello, oh, hello. That's a marginal gain right there. People don't value the small stuff, though. They focus too much on the big stuff, right? Well, I think you've got to get the basics right. You know, I think the marginal gains concept came about originally is when we started out with the Olympic program and the Olympic kind of medals were so far away.

You know, it seemed like such a mountain and they were so, so in the distance and untouchable. You think like, wow, how on earth, what are we going to do to get from where we are now to get up there? And as we kind of, as we started working through, you know, how are we going to approach this? It occurred to me that there was a couple of things really. One was there's obviously the fundamentals,

the basics of any kind of performance really. When if you get the fundamentals right for a consistent period of time, it's going to get you a long way there. It really is. So that's important. But the whole idea of marginal gains really starts to think, right, okay, so we're a pretty long way off up there, but so what can we do?

What can we believe in? How do we get some momentum? How do we get some contagious enthusiasm? Of course, people like a little bit of progression. And if we just aim for perfection, perfection was so far away that there's no point in aiming for it because we're going to fail every day.

So I thought, well, let's have a little progression, just a little, little bit of progression. And that'll make you feel good. So let's identify where we're going. Are we doing the basics? basics right then what could we do by next week that we're not doing this week what little things could we do there's a million things that could impact a cycling performance could we could we i don't know change our diet to be slightly more optimal than it is this week and do that by next week and everybody goes yep we could do that okay what else could we do could we do more in the in the gym could we do could you change your attitude slightly could

be really kind of think about just even engage with thinking about your attitude once a day could you do that yeah we could do that okay so off we go and then you get to next week and did we do all that stuff yeah we did actually and we haven't moved a long way but i tell you what it felt pretty good what are you doing i did this oh what are you doing I did this and all of a sudden you kind of start to get in this idea of you make you're on the move and the one of the things about marginal gains is you're on the move and we like progression we like to feel oh I feel quite good about myself today I did x probably means nothing to anybody else and And probably, you know, very unique to me, but it meant something to me, you know, and I feel quite good about that.

And so I can, I can do that again tomorrow and small, small steps stick. Whereas you're trying to do something big, you can go something big for a little while. We all go to the gym in January now in a couple of months, a couple of weeks time, we'll go full gas in the gym. And then of by february or mid-february we've all stopped again not you know generalization but you know what i mean and um and why is that you know whereas uh we're trying to make too big a change that's not sustainable and and it's it's it's quite rare that you can make major change and make it sustainable but it's quite easy to make small incremental change and make them stick and it's the stickability over time i think which makes the the big difference and it's quite easy to make small incremental change and make them stick. And it's the stickability over time, I think, which makes the big difference. And it's as much

psychological as it's anything else. And if there's a group who buy into, right, let's look at the little things, you know, let's look at the difference. Let's look at the, you know, your setup in here, like the music and everything. Once you start doing that, everybody's on the, you know, getting quite excited yeah that's what makes us different and then somebody's going to go well we could have that picture instead of that picture or we could do this instead of that and it feels good and by virtue of the fact that you're all going here on it and you're enjoying it and there's a bit of energy about it then other ideas will come to the surface you'd be more open to to adopting them and people talk about it you

know we're on the move we're changing we're doing all these little things because we can be asked to do the little things that other people can't be asked to do and that makes a difference that makes you a winner in my opinion i might say that quite often in our team you know we'll be working late and i said all right guys let's just all get together for a minute the reason we've been good the reason we're good is we can be asked to do all these little things all these other teams are now locked up they've gone to bed they're in the hotel

they can't be bothered to do this we can and it matters to us that's what we're all about now let's keep going and it works it works

100% it works it's been 20 years and it's as much about that kind of enthusiasm and a positivity about embracing change isn't a chore

improving isn't a chore if itroving isn't a chore. If it's a chore, it's a bit like I was saying about education. You know, if what you're trying to achieve is a chore, then that's a challenge. How do you make something, how do you change something, reframe something into a little bit that's not a chore or something that actually has been over there. You can reframe that into a positive and then you stick with it you know feel good about yourself in the end if we feel good about ourselves we're going

to be happier we're going to be more engaged i'll be more willing to make more change if we feel good about ourselves and and that was where sort of marginal gains coming from and i was lying on my floor i said when i really have to think about this crazy thing where i used to do my homework lying on the floor as a kid and now when i really really want to think sort have to think about this crazy thing where I used to do my homework lying on the floor as a kid. And now when I really, really want to think, sort of really think about something, I get big sheets of paper, tend to lie on the floor and write on that.

And marginal gains came from economics, really, with marginal costing. I was reading all about that and about little kind of you know incremental gains and i thought actually hmm if you aggregate all these marginal gains maybe get a big gain yeah but conceptually it's kind of like yeah this is worth a go and off we went i always reference a compounding interest as well it's like it's like the same thing right exactly exactly you get one percent more a year look what i say for us i

often like whip out the compounding interest calculator on google and i'm like just change it by one percent and see what it looks like in 20 years yeah and the graph is just in a completely different place yeah and that's another really good way to get people to believe in this invisible force that you know is compounding for or against you yeah these one percent yeah time because you know getting 10 interest on a million for 30 years versus getting 11% is ridiculously different at the end of that compounding cycle. You sound like, I mean, you've described yourself as being obsessed.

You sound like you're pretty obsessed with what you do. Yeah, I suppose I am. Yeah. What's the cost of that obsession? Well, I think, you know, I've pretty much kind of put everything I've got into what I do, really. And that means currently I'll spend 220 days a year, you know, at races and, you know, a long time on the road. And that does come at a cost, I guess, you know, at races and, you know, a long time on the road and that does come at a cost, I guess, you know. Yeah. It's hard to get out of it, I think. I don't know if it's obsessive or not.

I suppose, you know, I've obviously got Millie, my daughter, who I absolutely adore, love to bits. And, you know, we've spent, I guess, since she was born, I've always been, you know, involved in sport. And at some point soon, I'd like to think to think right i'm going to stop and really spend time more time together that'll be nice and yet i think if i was thinking about why am i doing all of this i think a lot would be you know i'd like her to be happy i'd like her to have whatever whatever she can have really and uh yeah it it's a tough balancing act, that one.

That doesn't come easy to me. I can tell. I was just trying to visualize you sat on a beach with your cigar with no work, no sports. Yeah. It sounds more like torture. That's a bit of a struggle. Yeah.

Yeah, I think I would. I think I would like to just, I think, have a period where I just maybe just switch off. You know, I haven't had a holiday for a long time and I've had a few health issues, obviously. I had an issue with my heart this year and I have a cancer and that kind of forced me to stop a little bit. But then I got back as soon as I could and carried on.

So I think I'd like, yeah yeah I would like to just at some point learn to maybe take time out and enjoy the colour of life a little bit more and the various things in life but um yeah you mentioned that um getting a getting news that I mean we all hope to never get up about ourselves or our loved ones which is that you had cancer now that's something you can't control no that was a shock i must say that was a that was a real shock i wasn't expecting it at all you know i ride my bike you know i train hard and um i ride my bike a lot look after myself and i was very fit um and um and then i start to get these bouts of fatigue more than anything. And it was a really weird kind of, you know, you race every day, you're moving every day, and I think people see the sport on telly,

they don't see the rigour of all the travel and all the movement and the early mornings and late nights. And, you know, you go and race for a month, a three-week race, you go there a week early, and you're nailed, you know, halfway through. And, of course, then you've got to really dig in. So you're tired a lot of the time, time but then start getting these bouts of fatigue which just like somebody pulled literally taking my battery out and i'd oh i could feel it coming on and then i'd slump i just couldn't function and then i went for a check and uh i did a blood test and then you know my psa had gone up and and so i said i better go for another check and said, oh God, you know, I'll be all right.

And didn't bother and then eventually I did. And then they said, yeah, took it around and said, right, better come and see me straight away. And that was it. I thought it was quite a big deal at the time, but then I moved on. I don't dwell on it. I don't think about it much.

I like the sort of tough times don't last. Tough people do you know and I just thought right that's it done I'm not going to dwell on this I'm going to move on

and that's what I did really as quick as I could but those moments give you a different type of perspective on what matters right

where you have like a kind of an existential moment of you think about oh my god the tectonic plate of my health is something that can...

Yeah, very much so, yeah. You wouldn't even consider the thought of it. No, no, 100%. And absolutely, you're spot on with that. You realise, right, okay, we're not here forever. 100%, which is true for everybody, isn't it? And kind of when you're younger, it's one of those things,

you hear older people say, whatever, but then you have the dawning or the realization, right, I'm not here forever. So then you think, okay, what's important? What, you know, is it like to come back? You know, what time I've got left? That kind of stuff. And then you start to think about that.

And so then you start to think even more. You know, a lot of people talk to you about, you know, living in the moment. Of course, you've got to plan for the future. You can't just ignore the future because we're all prepared in the future, aren't we? You know, we're trying to talk to you about, you know, living in the moment. Of course, you've got to plan for the future. You can't just ignore the future because we're all preparing the future, aren't we? You know, we're trying to get fitter or whatever, whatever. And that's, of course, today, thinking about doing something today for your current self but for your future self.

You're thinking of your future self when we diet or train. It's not going to happen now. So your mind is on your future self. And to what extent are you worried about your future self and the consequences of things happening rather than enjoying the here and now and i think that really does bring it home in terms of to what extent am i enjoying the present and living in the present and what stands am i just going to keep on going and and sort of sacrificing for my future self when my future self's never going to arrive you know and that's

a bit of an odd question to sit and contemplate for a while. It's a reality check to spend any time in hospital, isn't it? You know, but equally, there's some amazing people working in there and it's just, yeah, I was blown away by that actually. Did Steve Peters speak to you through this period at all? Oh yeah, I speak to Steve. I mean, I love Steve, I must say.

I think you had Fran Miller on as well. She'll say the same, I'm sure. And a lot of people who we worked with Steve would say, you know, he's a game changer for us. And whenever I'm worried or I'm not sure about something, I kind of know what he's going to sell me, but I still like to hear it anyway, you know. So I chatted to him then about how to, you know, what to deal with.

It upset, I didn't like it that it upset, it upset Millie, I think. And I didn't like that. You know, I didn't like the idea that she was worried. And so that was quite, I wanted to make sure they dealt with that properly. But then equally, Lives for Living, you know, and you think, okay, well, here I am, I'm still here. And I'm going to make the most of this, you know, and I'm going to enjoy it a little bit more

and stop, you know, worrying and thinking and, you know, constantly this idea of chasing and doing something for the next event. And it's like, boys, chill out a little bit and enjoy the things that you like doing. And in the end, like most people, the things I like the most are simple things. I like riding my bike.

I like being out in beautiful roads on my bike. I like socialising with people. I'm not a big kind of big gathering person. I'm a, you know, smaller group of people and big gathering person i'm a you know smaller group of people and i've got some amazing you know people and friends and i don't know i just like the simple things in life really but really really taking them in acceptance i i was when reading and hearing how you dealt with that situation i think the um the really powerful thing that i kind of got from that was getting to that point of accepting the situation as fast as you can yeah good point

yeah and i know it's a bit cheesy as well but we talk about yeah it's a bit of a cheesy phrase but the whole idea of you know when you're under pressure and you're really in a moment of real you know okay that the heat's on here. You know, the idea of instead of sort of trying to resist and be like a stick and kind of bending, bending and snapping, just think of yourself as bamboo and just bend. And you know full well that once this moment's passed, you're going to snap back up, you're going to be okay. And so we talk a lot about bending like bamboo,

not bending like a stick, you know, not snapping, and just bend like bamboo and we're in a bit when we're in difficult moments we go it just bent we're just bending like bamboo it'll pass it'll pass and and sure enough most times it does we worry about stuff that never happens don't we always we worry about massively about stuff that never actually happens and and they're all sort of it brings all of that kind of stuff home, you know, it resonates after. And it's still so much joy from our present, right? When we're thinking about all that could go wrong.

And then as you've highlighted with your theory of focusing on the controllables, it hinders performance, which is incredibly detrimental too. One of the things when I started reading about your future now, looking forward, you then also got the news a couple of years later, this year, I believe.

Yeah. That you had to have heart surgery. That was a bit of a shock as well. Yeah. So after the pandemic, I was riding my bike a lot. My dad actually was very ill. So I went down to, as soon as we could travel after the pandemic, I went down to France, to the Alps.

And I was there visiting the hospital, rode my bike. And as I was riding uphill, I was getting this kind of, I thought it was a pain in my throat or something to do with my breathing or the dry air, maybe the altitude. And when I was trying pretty hard, pushing myself pretty hard, it really started to hurt quite a lot. And then if I slowed down, it subsided and off it went. So I thought, okay, it was just going to pass, as you do.

I went out for a ride with a friend of mine, a guy called Nicky Craig, and we were out riding. And I really, whoa, I ride. I said, whoa, blimey, I think I'm going to have to stop here because this pain was getting really bad. So I thought in the end, I thought, well, I'll go and have it. I'll go and have it. I'll go and check it out, you know, just in case.

I went for a CT scan of my heart and the guy came out. It was a German guy. He said, David, you have a big problem. And my left descending artery was totally blocked. And I was literally kind of, they wouldn't let me. That was it. They kept me there, put me on medication straight away. totally blocked and I was literally kind of you know they wouldn't let me that was it they kept me there put me on medication straight away and I pretty much operated on him you know to avoid a

heart attack basically and that was a shock that was um that was pretty full-on really yeah that was more of a shock than a cancer was I don't know why your heart feels worse than, I don't know, but it was a different sensation, that one, I must admit. That had me worried. And that's another set of uncomfortable conversations with Millie and... Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then I had to go in and, so the doctor, again, doctor's brilliant, went in and then I thought, God, I've done a typical bloke thing here

where I ignored all these symptoms for, you know, eight months, nine months, just ignored it, didn't go and have it checked properly. And in the end, of course, I could have done it sooner. And then I went in and they went in with a wire and a camera to have a look how badly it was blocked, you know, the artery. And they had an open-heart surgeon there and a guy puts a stent in, like a plumber, and they were going to decide whether to get a stent in and open up the artery or they were going to go and do a heart you know a bypass basically and take a bit of

vein and stitch it in and then i came out and i felt like 10 men yeah really yeah yeah amazing amazing went out my bike it's like i'd gained 50 watts it was really yeah brilliant and then i haven't um i haven't had any pain since and i still i did six and a half hours day before yesterday with the lads with me orca so yeah yeah yeah speaking of progress then one of the things that i we were kind of talking about before we um we started chatting but also i i really wanted to ask you about kind of the last point i was really curious about regarding the team was that your philosophy towards the team is evolving with time and how you get the best out of the people um people are typically quite rigid in their philosophy in the way they think but i read that you're now taking a individual first approach

not a team first approach is that accurate accurate and why? Well, I think there's the individual behind the performer. Right. You know, and I think everybody is, so I don't think it's individualized in terms, you know, the team is still absolutely, you know, the fundamental kind of tenets of what we do. But there is an individual behind the performer and that's worth exploring and maybe expressing more.

We've been tremendously successful, and with Team Sky, we had a brilliant run and won a lot of back-to-back Tour de France and other Grand Tours. However, over that time, when you become serial winners, it becomes predictable, and of course some people like that. If you're a supporter, some people don't like that, and it becomes predictable and of course some people like that if you're a supporter some people don't like that it becomes predictable and you know

the interest and the sort of the emotional response that it generates the performance generates is an interesting thing to contemplate you know we've just seen

the Formula One at the weekend and everybody's gripped by it because it was just unpredictable nobody's going to happen there was suspense there was an emotional

you know rollercoaster along with the actual performance and i think when you look at sports if you look at you know if you think you can perform on the on a vertical axis performance goes up and up and up and up until you become serial winners but then across the bottom you think actually what kind of emotional response what kind of feelings what kind of style? You know, how are you making people feel? And you can have a team like Germany, let's say, who's a serial winners and think, hmm, people go, yeah, okay.

But the Germans love it, obviously. But everybody's like, yeah, okay. But a team like, who achieve the same, like Brazil, people love Brazil. Everybody loves Brazil. Why is that? What's the difference? You know, they're still performing,

they're still winning. So the metric, if you like, the winning is still similar. But You know, they're still performing, they're still winning. So the metric, if you like, the winning is still similar, but the way that they're going about winning seems to be slightly different. And in the centre, let's say, the motor racing scenario, or Schumacher maybe,

or, you know, some of the, and you think, I don't know, Usain Bolt, or maybe the All Blacks, or, you know. Manchester United. Manchester United. Injury time. Yeah, injury time, yeah.

And there are certain teams or that I think, oh, yeah, hmm, don't really warm that. Not feeling that. But this one over there doing the same thing. God, I love them. And what is it about? What is it about those teams? And is that something you can, is it just happens?

Or is it something that you can actually work towards? So, for example, when I first went, left home to go to France to be a professional cyclist, there was something in that sport that chimed with me so much and got me so passionate that I left everything behind. I left home, I went to a foreign country, I couldn't speak the language, didn't know what I was going to do, but still did it I still went because something was pulling me so it's not and it was something about that sport at that time that I just adored and when I think now and think right when I was that age what kind of team if you'd have told me then at that age I could be running one of the world's biggest cycling teams

and had the success that we've had and still be running one, I think what kind of team would I have loved to have seen? What kind of flair? What kind of, you know, how are they erased? And would it have been, you know, would it have been very much part of us? Or would it have been like, you know, just bulldoze your way through? Or would it be a bit of panache and flair and cool, you know? Excitement.

Excitement, yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly. And so can you, where does style, you know, and that sort of emotion fit in terms of performance? And you can go after performance clinically, you know, and can style ever be a performance attribute? And if you think about that, you know, so is that something you can go after or is it something that you just have is it just something that happens in the chemistry

of a team or is it the way that you are so for us we obviously the race of bikes but what about off the bike and the way you speak and the way you do your social media and the way you are with people and the way you are with fans and who you are with fans and who you are, the colours and everything else that goes on, is there something in there which actually can bring out the individual and you get to know the individual? So they're not just kind of guys with sunglasses on, with helmets on and kind of like sort of faceless, you know, warriors, as it were.

Where's the person? You know, we've got guys from Ecuador and, you know, come from, you know, unbelievable backgrounds in Ecuador. And their stories of how they found themselves in our team is just incredible. And the guys from Colombia and the guys from Britain, the guys from everywhere. They've all got their journeys. They've all got personalities. They've all got the humans.

You know, they're interesting. Their backstories are interesting. And it's like, where does that all kind of come together in a team? does that get how do you how do you watch that performance and see all of that is it possible and i'm really interested in after the minute this is such a this is such a conversation that someone who has won a lot would have they're now thinking about the way they want to win and it's interesting because when you were saying that i was thinking about the way they want to win. And it's interesting, because when you were saying that, I was thinking about different teams and Jose Mourinho and Klopp. And then the one that I really stumbled on was boxing,

where you could have Vladimir Klitschko who holds the throne for a decade, but then everybody turns off the sport. And then you get an Anthony Joshua and a Tyson Fury that come along. They're still champions, but they're doing it in a way that's captivating the public.

So my question, my mind then became, well, you have to ask yourself, is the objective just to win? Or is it to win and make loads of money and inspire a generation? Because people are flooding into boxing now because of Fury and AJ. And the money those guys are making

is way more than Klitschko was making. Yeah. So I guess it's a case of a victory we've been talking about it you know if you win a lot you can be respected you'll be respected but can you be respected and loved can you be respected for your victories

but loved for a way that you achieved them and that's where the that's the holy grail why is being loved why does that matter admired and loved and get passion from people And that's where the, that's the Holy Grail. Why is being loved, why does that matter? Admired and loved and get passion from people and, you know, just generate emotion. And that's what sport's about. You know, that's what really, I think in the end, you know,

there's something about sports that is inspiring. It can move people, you know, and I think the whole emotion of sport is something that is, it's why we love it in the end. You know, you can take part in it or you can watch it. You know, why was everybody watching a Formula One at the weekend? Because it was so inspiring and emotional. It's just, whoa, you've got to see it.

And the same with Klitschko or Tyson Fury, you know, when he's got that knockout punch and he was out. And then he gets back up again. That is insane. It's just insane. I can feel myself now. It's just insane. I can feel myself now. It's just like, that's, those moments in sports are what sport's all about.

And I think that's what, you know, if you're involved in sport and you like a, you know, I've been most of my life involved in sport, of course you've got to try and win first and foremost. And winning itself isn't easy, you know. And of course that's got to be the first kind of absolutely, you're not going to, you would never go after style if it wasn't intelligent,

but some people have got intelligence and style and the flair and the cantonars or the senors or it'll be a race, you know. And I guess for me, I know this sounds maybe a bit bonkers, but, you know, we're in the business of thoroughbreds, really, if you think about it. The top of the top where I'm, you know, the guys I work with, they're all thoroughbreds.

But I want a thoroughbred racer. Somebody who can race. After sports isn't a team sport necessarily. It's a race. You know, we're racing one another. You're trying to outwit your opponent and trying to outmaneuver. It's not just a physical endeavour.

It's a race. And there's something about, you know, there's something very, very cool about the guy, the great races. And there's something about that which I just adore. You know, you saw it the weekend with Hamilton and Verstappen, what a, I mean, unbelievable. Unbelievable.

I admire those guys so much. I really do. And I think most people admire Hamilton now, maybe even a little bit more, because we've seen a different dimension of his character, a different kind of... He was amazing after that. In that short period after that, you know,

when Verstappen won, the way he managed himself and the way he handles himself was just unbelievable. And I think everybody saw a different a different view or looked at Lewis Hamilton through a different lens and they saw a very different person than what they would normally maybe see and therein lies the magic of sports I think you know my last question for you again I asked this question from a very personal personally curious space because it's a problem i've not figured out for myself which is we talked a little bit about sacrifice there is about romantic relationships and the struggle of being a great and winning and sacrificing and doing 200 days a year at races while also trying to meet these goals of romantic relationships i've

struggled with it pretty much my whole life. Have you struggled with it? Do you have any answers for me? No, I don't. I'm not your man here. Unfortunately, no, that's something that, you know, I wouldn't say that I'm that good at, if I'm honest, if I'm really honest. Yeah, same.

And I think I'd like to be. You selfish, do you think? Sort of selfish, yeah, probably, or sort of concerned, really. You know, like so driven, God, I can't fail at this, you know. And that sort of fear of, and it is, there's something inside of me

that worries about failing so much that I can't switch off from it in a way, you know. In 2014, you struggled with that, right? When that was the year you didn't win the Tour de France. Big time, yeah. What do you mean by big time? Give me the specifics. I don't know. Just at the time, I was embarrassed.

Not about the team or anything, just for myself. And I felt this thinking of, God, I couldn't go out, couldn't go out of the house, couldn't leave the garden. I remember speaking, I called Steve Peters from the garden and thought, God, I've let everybody down, I've failed. And it was, yeah, quite, winning for me doesn't actually, that sounds terrible, but I mean, I get exhilaration from the moment that you win obviously it's great to win

but the emotion the you know the depth or the the amount of emotion it gives me to to win is is nowhere near the amount of emotion I get from losing so the negative emotion from losing is massive for me whereas the positive of winning is is okay it's done the job part of the journey great fantastic let's keep on going and so i think this kind of the on the avoidance but not wanting to lose and really trying to help people to win you know it's like do you know where that comes from because that does sound i don't know intense yeah i don't know but i've always had it i've been the same you know i get super excited by wanting to do those big, bold, ambitious things

and then going out and say, right, let's go and do X. And then afterwards I think, oh, what have I done? And then, of course, then I've got to make it happen. And I get after making it happen. And I think that's where I've got this kind of dichotomy, really, of there's part of me which is probably my heart, which is the crazy ambition of wanting to do things that have never been done before

and helping people go after stuff and all that kind of, you know, nothing's impossible. Nothing's impossible. Anybody says it's impossible will prove you wrong. And then you've got to get after it. And I think the getting after it is where I go back into more of this whole detail. That's to get after it. And I think the getting after it is where I go back into more of this whole detail. That's the doing of it.

And it's as if my head and my heart sort of sets these wild kind of ambitions and then I've got to switch out of that into the right, let's get after it. And then not wanting to not succeed of whatever it was drives me then, you know. We have a tradition on this podcast, which is the previous guest writes a question for the next guest.

And I don't actually get to see it until I open this book. So you will also be writing a question for my next guest. If you could turn back the clock on one day this year and do it differently, what would it be and why this year wow there's a lot going on for me this year that's for sure i think i'd like to go back so Millie's just had her 17th birthday and on the 29th of November, driving, car test, et cetera.

And I wouldn't go back and change it necessarily, but I'd just go back and relive it because I loved that. And rather than something I'd change, I'd just go back and do it again. Yeah. It's no big deal. You know, get your car and yeah. so i'd like to come spend that whole day again that's what i'd like to do amazing well thank you so much for coming here because as i've

said to you you know it's so funny that i've i've never met you but you've had such a big influence on me and my philosophy and helping me articulate that and um you know sophie who's my assistant once upon a time worked with you and she yeah has always spoken well about you which is actually really remarkable because people often don't leave a job and speak so highly of the person they worked with but even you know since we started doing this podcast she was telling me you've got to get you've got to get dave on you've got to get dave on um and she's she's always just sung your praises and um your philosophy the way you articulate it i think

it's helped more people than you'll probably ever realize but it's an i consider this to be a huge honor having you here today um as did my friends when i told them you were coming and that's for very very good reason because everybody thinks you're a bit of a legend so thank you so much for your honesty and your thank you thank you and thank you for what you guys do you know oh thank you i think you bring a lot of happiness and joy and inspiration to a lot of people. A lot of people listen to what you've got to say, you know,

which is, which is remarkable and I think, and I think you've, you know, when you've got, when you get the, there's a sense of responsibility

in a way, isn't there, by the time, you know, by the, the level of, the platform that you built for yourself

and you do an amazing job with it. So, thank you. Oh, thank you. It means a lot.