The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett - Thierry Henry (EXCLUSIVE): "I Cried Every Single Day", Dealing With Depression, My Childhood Trauma & Fighting For My Dad's Love!
Episode Date: January 8, 2024If you enjoy hearing about the beautiful game, I recommend you check out my conversation with Frank Lampard, which you can find here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Us8n8VBQn_c What does it take to ...become a Premier League GOAT and what does it take from you when you walk away from the game? Thierry Henry is a French professional football coach, broadcaster and former player. He is regarded as one of the best strikers and Premier League player of all time, and France’s highest-ever international goalscorer. He began his professional career in 1994 and played for Arsenal from 1999 to 2007, he is the club’s all-time leading goal scorer with 226 goals. He was PFA player of the year twice, in 2003 and 2004, and European Golden Boot twice, in 2004 and 2005, he retired as a player in 2014 and is now coach of the under-21 French national team. In this interview, Steven and Thierry discuss everything from Thierry’s family’s expectation of him becoming a great football player, never feeling good enough and always wanting to get his father’s approval, ‘dying’ when he stopped playing football and his mental struggles after the game. Follow me: https://beacons.ai/diaryofaceo
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Quick one. Just wanted to say a big thank you to three people very quickly. First people I want
to say thank you to is all of you that listen to the show. Never in my wildest dreams is all I can
say. Never in my wildest dreams did I think I'd start a podcast in my kitchen and that it would
expand all over the world as it has done. And we've now opened our first studio in America,
thanks to my very helpful team led by Jack on the production side of things. So thank you to Jack
and the team for building out the new American studio. And thirdly to to amazon music who when they heard that we were expanding to the united states and
i'd be recording a lot more over in the states they put a massive billboard in time square um
for the show so thank you so much amazon music um thank you to our team and thank you to all of you
that listen to this show let's continue i was lying for a very long time because society wasn't ready to hear what I had to say.
But I will be honest with you, I was... Thierry Henry, record breaker, history maker.
Arsenal's record goal scorer.
Throughout my career, I must have been in depression.
Did I do something about it? No.
But to understand the person that I became, you have to understand what happened early.
When I was young, I didn't see a lot of love, affection, hugging.
My dad, the first time he took me in his arms,
said, this baby will be an amazing football player.
From that point, I was programmed to succeed.
My dad took control of my body, and it was tough.
One day, we played a game. I was 13 years old.
We won the game 6-0. I scored six goals.
But it was always what I didn't do.
You miss that control. You miss that cross.
You miss that this. You miss that that.
And it can make you or break you.
I decided it was going to make me.
I wasn't scared of failure.
You're going to fail. That's what shapes you.
But I was more scared not to please people.
Even when you were playing at Arsenal
and you were winning golden boots and Invincibles,
you were still trying to please your dad.
Yeah.
But were you happy?
Oof.
For so long, you think what you're doing is to please others.
Football, money.
We have a roof, but then I was about to leave again.
My girlfriend, the kids, everybody starts to cry.
And for the first time, I realised they were crying for me
not the football player
not the accolades
and I felt human
if I was watching you
what would I have seen?
me crying
almost every day
but it was the young Thierry
what was he crying for? to understand a man i know that you have to understand his context especially his early
context i think we're all products of our earliest context i certainly am and having spent a very
small amount of time with you i know you are as well what is that early context that people need to know to understand the man that sits in front of
me today i will second what you just said i think you need to understand the struggles of someone
to know exactly what the person is and uh and what a person is about.
So many things that we can start with.
I grew up in a modest household,
if I can say that.
For me at the time, it was the best because I couldn't compare it to anything.
I grew up with
diversity
I grew up with
there is food on the table so therefore
I love you
I take care of you so therefore
I love you it wasn't so much
communicated by
hugs
by I love you, by a well done.
More often than not, it was more something that I didn't do that was raised.
Being from the Caribbean, my parents came early to France,
which they called it the continent.
It is still France because there are French islands, Guadeloupe and Martinique.
But we always say going to France.
It was the dream for that era to go to the continent, to go to France, to have a better life,
to try to make sure that we could have a better life. But when you grew up there,
you know, you dream of going to France
because it's better,
because it's like in bracket the American dream,
which actually it is the French dream.
I'm sure it was the same for you. When you arrive
in
France,
make sure you
don't make any mistakes.
Make sure they don't come to us and say,
oh, those guys from the Caribbean,
you know, they just arrived and
you know, so don't speak
Creole. Make sure you speak French
well. Don't do this. Don't do that. We need to fit in. We don't want Creole. Make sure you speak French well. Don't do this.
Don't do that.
We need to fit in.
We don't want to get sent back to the Caribbean.
We want to keep the house that we have.
We want to keep the job that we have.
Always that fear of getting sent back.
Not so much for me because I was born in France,
but they always had that chip on their shoulder of
make sure you don't make any mistakes.
I don't want anyone to say that my son was this, my son was that.
Don't bring any problem.
We came here to work.
We came here to have a better life.
So please do not spoil it, kind of.
So you always feel like you need to fit in and not belong.
I was kind of heavy at one point as a young kid, you know.
But that's the way it was.
You listen to it.
You grew up with it.
And you just try to fit in at one point.
What was life like outside of the four walls that you lived in?
Outside of the home, the streets you grew up on?
Just a normal neighborhood, if I can use the word normal neighborhood,
with everything that goes with it.
Gangs, drugs, fights, happiness, diversity, different food, different religions.
So I always said that it was the best for me to understand what the world was.
How does it compare to the streets that your kids are growing up on?
Oops.
What streets?
The garden. The grass. what streets the garden the grass
no concrete there
no joking aside
you can't compare it man
I mean
but if I had to do it again
I would do it again
I'll do it again
because it made me
you know
it's very difficult
I can't even start
to even compare anything.
I did everything for them not to grow up there.
Because you don't want to grow up there.
Why?
Because I didn't want them to go through that.
It's weird for me to say that.
It's kind of a cliche thing to say that you don't really want to grow up there
if you ask anyone
when they can compare it
they're like oh no it's better to grow up there
it's better to grow up there
but for me like I said
I'll do it again because it made me understand
a lot of things
acceptance
living with others
to coexist
in any way by by the way,
what you think of, what you wear,
how you see the world.
For me, I couldn't care less that in my class,
it was the same thing.
It was Senegalese, Malian, Caribbean,
North African, Asian, Italian, Polish roots,
Portuguese roots. I couldn't care less about what you thought or not. I'm like, this is my friend.
Do you know what I mean? And I traveled also without traveling. I went around the world
staying in the same place. I had all the food in the world staying in the same place i had all the food in the world
staying in the same place so this is why i would say it's kind of a cliche thing to say you don't
want to grow up there but what it gives you also a what it gives you is second to none for me in
terms of what you need in order to comprehend how the world is.
You described it before as growing up and only seeing cement.
Yeah.
Concrete.
I grew up, it's kind of weird for me to say that, Stephen,
but if I don't see concrete for more than a week, I don't feel well.
I know people like country and country life and country life and the sea.
If I don't see concrete, I don't feel well.
I grew up in it.
Some people will tell you, I can't see it anymore.
I need the sea.
I need whatever.
For me, I'm happy in a town, concrete.
That's where I grew up.
But yes, you can encounter problems there.
A lot.
But I'll be honest with you.
I was lucky enough.
I have an older brother that's seven years older than me.
So his friend, him, used to protect me
because he was of the same age as my town.
So I was born in 77. So I was born in 77.
My town was built in 77.
So just imagine my brother arriving in this town,
he's older than me,
was the first one that had a job.
The first one, obviously, that had money.
The first one had a car, so he was well-respected.
I know it sounds stupid now to say that,
but he was well-respected it sounds stupid now to say that but it was well respected
so I always stayed away from from trouble especially with my parents but also I don't
know if you if you had that but when you have a certain gift and the guys in the neighborhood
know that you might do something you're're also protected. Interesting. Because I leave this one alone.
He might do something.
He's good at football.
You know, so let him be.
Kind of.
Interesting.
So I had my brother,
I had that also.
Because when you play football
and you're from a town,
you're like,
hey, a little kid.
He's from our town.
You know, so you have a kind of unwritten protection in a way
because you might do it.
You might succeed.
Going back inside your home,
what was life like inside the walls of your home?
I always think that we learn,
you kind of gave a hint to it there,
we learn emotion inside the walls of our home.
I certainly didn't because there wasn't a lot of love in my parents' house
in terms of their love with each other.
And we weren't necessarily a very affectionate family.
So I then struggled growing up as an adult because I didn't really learn affection.
That's exactly what I referred to before.
No, we didn't have that.
My parents were divorced when I was seven, eight.
So dad left at one point the house.
He was present when I had to go to training or games
or coming around at times,
but he left when I was eight.
So I technically grew up with my mom.
But even when they were together, it's exactly what you said.
I didn't see a lot of love, affection, hugging.
You know, when I say that, I'm not complaining.
It wasn't hell, please, by any means.
But there wasn't a lot of love.
That side of the emotion, I didn't know it.
And even more so when you grew up in this type of neighborhood,
that amplified also what was happening at home.
Like, it's more of a be rough, anger.
You're the man, you're a man, be strong.
Don't cry.
You know, I didn't know how to open up talking.
I had a problem.
Maybe I need help.
I didn't know those tools.
I didn't know.
I didn't have a door first and foremost to be able to
know what it was
I'm sure
you understand what I mean like
even until now when I hug my mom is weird
yeah
like and I know
people go like come on
it's weird
you know I'll
you know I won't stay too long if you know I'll you know
I won't stay too long
if you know what I mean
like I'm like
okay that's enough
now I mean
maybe I went too far
with it
did I go too far
you know
because I don't know
it stayed
it stayed
I didn't know
I didn't know
how to deal with that
was I even
aware of it
it's when then
I went to other people's houses.
Later on,
when you speak with people
and they tell you they have discussions
about whatever.
I'm like, what?
You guys discuss?
You talk?
All right.
Must be nice.
Not in a bad way, understand me well.
But that's how I was.
You know, you get on with it, you get used to it.
It becomes a norm.
Who could you speak to back then?
Nobody.
But understand me well,
I didn't know that I had to speak to people to feel well.
I didn't know anything else.
So I can't be sitting here saying,
oh, I wish, I don't wish anything.
I just didn't know that when you had a problem,
you talk about it, whatever it is.
You had a fight, you feel well about it, or you were ashamed about something.
You go home, how was your day? Good?
I thought you've been,
you know,
something happened and the headmaster
called at home
or whatever it is
and then,
and then you didn't do
your homework or whatever.
But if you ask me,
are you okay?
I'm okay.
Did you get more attention
when things didn't go well?
When you were naughty
or,
you know,
maybe.
Oh,
that's also the norm.
So you get attention for that?
Yeah,
yeah, that, that, that was, this is where, you know, that's also the norm so you get attention for that yeah that was
this is where
you know
that stayed on
with me
up until now
my attention
to details
comes from the fact
that
it was always
what I didn't do
that mattered
so if I walk
in the room
I can
straight away
see what's wrong
never what's wrong.
Never what's good,
which is I'm working on.
It did help me in my life and it still does help me
because I can assess the situation pretty quick
and see if something's going to go south or not.
Or if there is something wrong or whatever,
I will notice it straight away.
You know, it comes with a cost.
Yeah, it does.
Obviously it does.
But,
like I said,
like I said to you,
I can't help myself.
Like,
it was always
what I didn't do.
To who?
To whoever.
My mom,
my dad.
You know,
it was tough.
Caribbean,
Caribbean way.
It's just
what,
you know,
you didn't do enough.
My dad was very particular
at times on our lives
as a prior,
as a little boy.
It was always like,
you didn't do that well.
So obviously,
when you hear that
more often than not,
that's what's going to stay.
This is part of the sort of
immigrant story of survival. When you come to a new place,
parents aren't focused on self-actualization or happiness or fulfillment. They're focused on,
you know, you better survive and you better get an education. And they're almost in defense mode.
You got to fit. Yeah, you got to fit. So make sure you, you know,
it's going to be,
it is a cliche thing
and I'm sure you heard it
at home.
It's going to be
twice as hard
for you to get a job.
So you grew up
with that.
You grew up with,
oh,
I can't make
any mistakes.
Where did football
come into this
oh early doors
early doors
my dad
this is
and I said it so many times
this is exactly
what he said
the first time
he took me in his arm
he didn't say
people joke about it
up until now
because that story
it's known
but he didn't say
that you know
oh my god
he looks like me
or he doesn't look like me
or he has a big forehead
or massive lips
or a big nose
or whatever you say.
Oh my God,
he's not a good looking one
or,
you know,
whatever.
The first thing he did say
is he put me in the air.
This is what my uncle
the Mountie said.
He said,
this baby will be an amazing football player.
This is what he said.
And I know people will say, yeah, right.
This is exactly what he said.
And he puts me down and he put me down.
How do you feel about that?
Weird because, you know, weird and happy and at times, why and thank God.
But I wish, and I will explain, because after that, you can imagine what comes next.
He's going to fulfill the prophecy.
So what comes next is that I was programmed to succeed.
So whatever, what was going to happen was always going to happen.
You know, he took me on the field.
I was maybe five, six.
It's funny how you don't remember stuff at times that early,
but I do remember the first time he took me on the field
just to strike the ball.
Just strike the ball.
Just to strike the ball and that's about it.
And from that point, it was always a mission.
I was on a mission
to fulfill his dream, it was always a mission I was on a mission to
fulfill his dream
to please him
to
and by the way
don't get me wrong
at the time I don't know how much
I liked it
I cannot
I don't know
all I knew is I didn't hate it
was it your choice?
definitely not my choice
early doors
what choice do you have anyway when you're young
if your mom wants to play piano
at one point you turn and you go like
hey I've had enough of the piano
or I've had enough of the guitar
or I've had enough of judo or I've had enough of the guitar or I've had enough of judo
or I've had enough of track and field, mom.
You know, but this is what I'm saying.
Whether I thought about it
or I didn't think about it,
could I,
could I have said
that I didn't want it?
You know, when he picked you up as a baby
and said,
this baby is going to be an amazing football player,
do you wish he said something else?
It's a tough one.
I don't know.
I don't know because look at where I am.
Look at what happened.
Do you wish he added a sentence?
Honestly.
It's just,
it's just
when you hear what he said,
that will,
you can understand in a way
exactly what we're going to talk about,
obviously.
Do I wish that he said something else?
Not at that moment,
knowing my dad, but
do I wish that he
behaved a certain way
after? Yes.
But what he said is what he said.
You know, some people said different stuff
and it didn't have an impact on your life or not.
We're talking about it because I became a football player.
Maybe if I didn't, I wouldn't have been here to tell you my story.
Also.
So no, what he said, it's okay.
It's what came after that had an impact on me.
He takes you out onto the pitch, you're five or six years old,
he gets you doing practice of kicking the ball,
kicking the ball.
I'm assuming at this time,
because he's divorced your mother,
your relationship with him,
the centre of your relationship,
sort of has this,
gravitates around football.
That is the relationship.
Mainly.
I know
that, you know, apart from holidays and, you know,
I'm going to see him because at one point he went back to live in Guadeloupe.
So I'm going to see him back there.
I know I was seeing him at the weekend or he's coming to get me for training.
So it's even like a double thing.
I know I see him a lot thanks to football.
And I know if I want to make him happy,
it will be through football.
How did you know that?
Well, first and foremost, because he said it.
And I knew what he said.
I knew what he said because everyone told me
after what he said.
And the way he behaved, I knew, like, if I want to make him happy,
it can only be that.
And you wanted to make him happy?
Yeah, I think we had a discussion, I talked about it.
But yeah, I always say, and I think I said it,
what you fear will master you. So my fear and what was the most difficult thing
for me to do as a man and as a player ever
was to please my dad.
That was the hardest thing I had to deal with,
to please my dad.
And as you can imagine,
I heard it after.
Terry, you're great.
Oh my God, oh my this, oh my that,
from everybody or whatever.
But the little me never heard it.
It was always what I didn't do.
So obviously you're always trying to get the nod, the approval.
You were great. you're progressing.
It's always, no, you miss this or you miss that.
So for a very long time,
up until not that long ago,
always my thing was to please people
because I never got that access.
That access was never granted when I was young.
On that subject, understand?
Well, on that subject, I was always looking for that approval,
which when I was young never came.
At that age, do you then, almost without knowing it,
start to associate your sense of self,
your sense of worth with your performance on the pitch? Because it sounds like your father,
maybe intentionally or unintentionally,
has programmed this belief into you
that if you do well on the pitch, then you are worthy.
Oh, you're lovable.
I didn't even think about anything else than pleasing him.
I wasn't even thinking about what he can do for me after.
But because I was always trying to do that,
then he carried on with everything.
I never wanted to let my teammates down.
I always wanted to please them.
I always wanted to please the fans. I always wanted to please them I always wanted to please the fans
because I grew up with wanting to please
him
so I never stopped
you're looking for
something that came from
what happened to you young
so he helped me
because at one point he works
he works with sports
because it's great to stay grounded because at one point he works he works with sports because
it's great to stay on your
you know to stay grounded
it's another day I need to be the best
so that at one point connected well
but technically he didn't
help the little me
or he didn't help so much the human being
he did
to a degree
help the athlete because he works. Like don't be, you know,
too satisfied with what you have tomorrow, soon over there, you need to be good again.
So I was like, okay, I need to, I need to be the best. I need to please everybody again
today. I need to, you know, my happiness and my sadness was always through people.
Because I didn't know.
I didn't know, you know, what used to make me sad or not sad.
I was always through, you know, like, yo, you sad?
Oh, no.
You happy?
Yeah.
You know, but me, I was always like, kind of, I won't say dead. The word is not dead, but expressing my feelings was very difficult,
apart rage and anger.
Rage and anger is easy.
Why?
Because it's the same.
It's something that I didn't do.
So I'm getting upset.
So it gives me fuel, always.
He helped the athlete, but he didn't help the human.
No.
What was the human missing?
What should he have given?
About everything.
The human being was missing
almost everything.
But you need to understand,
Steven,
like,
I left my house,
I was 13.
You know,
people don't realize that.
Who are you?
Who are you?
At 13 years old, you leave your house.
And you're already dealing with the pressure of succeeding
because you're trying to enter Clairefontaine.
So already here is competition.
What is Clairefontaine for people that don't know?
Clairefontaine is a preschool, pre-formation.
You have to pass four.
So one weekend you come, they take the best 20.
Then they do the same in and around, not far from Paris.
Then the weekend after that, you have the 20 from that place,
20 from that place, 20 from Paris.
Then you bring it down to 40, you bring it down to 20.
And eventually, obviously the 20 goes to that school of Clairefontaine
to teach you how to play football.
And you go to school from, by the way, 8 to 3.
After that, you play football.
For people that don't know as well,
because I was reading about Clairefontaine,
it's considered to be the elite sort of academy in France.
I read that around 1,600 trial for the program,
and out of which 23 are selected per year.
So this is like the SAS of football in France. 600 trial for the program and out of which 23 are selected per year.
So this is like the SAS of football in France.
It is.
And a lot of players came from there.
If I give you me, Anelka, Mbappé, Gallas,
you know, Papin,
I don't know if you remember Jean-Pierre Papin,
but a lot of players came from that academy.
My friend in our team here is French and he was with us in Paris when we first met.
And he said, if you go to Clairefontaine,
your chance of becoming a professional footballer is like 95%.
It's like 90%.
It's like, that's the elite.
Yes, but in 95, yeah, you have a chance,
but not a lot of those guys.
It's still very minimum, the guys that made it.
Interesting.
The guys that went there, still very minimum.
This is why the usual 2% success in 1998 don't.
To be part of the 2%, it's very difficult.
But to go back to what we were saying,
it does have an impact on a human being
because you didn't have a normal young life.
It's not the same.
What you're exposed to right from the start
is very difficult to deal with.
There was no time to be a child, it sounds like.
No, not at all.
And like I said, you don't think sounds like. No, not at all.
And like I said, you don't think about it.
I think about it now.
This is why I said to you, I can now see that the human being is missing a lot.
Have you learned a lot of these insights
from watching your kids get to just play and be kids?
I use that line often. You know, I got educated and my kids are I use that line often.
You know, I got educated and my kids are re-educating me.
You know, my kids save me.
They are saving me every day.
Every day I see something new.
They're teaching me to be a dad, a better dad.
Not a better dad than my dad. This is what I'm saying. Mys a dad a better dad not a better dad than my dad
this is what I'm saying
myself a better dad
and they're opening doors
that I didn't know how to deal with
you know
it's very
you know sometimes when you like
I can see
sometimes when they look at me,
how much they love me and how much like they like, oh, dad.
But if they only knew, actually, I look at them the same way.
You know, thanks for being here because it would have been tough.
Because, you know, as an athlete, as long as you stay within that frame, you can feed whatever you need to feed
to satisfy that little thing that you have,
your ego, your avoiding your problems.
Because you prefer to be the athlete than the human being.
Because then the athlete, it's easier.
You know what to do.
Well, I knew what to do. Even if it to do. Well, I knew what to do.
Even if it was painful, whatever, I knew what to do.
This is why when you go there alone,
so it's easy for a little while when you have your career.
But I think you remember that as an athlete,
and I say it and I will maintain it,
you die when you stop.
The athlete, a competitor, dies.
I can never play again in the Prem.
I can never play for France anymore.
I don't care what people say, you can play football.
None of that level.
Not competing the way I used to compete.
And that part of me died.
So people don't teach you to die.
So now you are going to face all your problems
because you could put them on the side
because you're playing games,
because you have other things that will cover that.
But once everything stops,
we're not used to be at home.
We're not used to deal
with a normal life. Since I'm 13,
I never had a normal life.
Understand me well, I'm not complaining.
I'm just saying, to go back
to the real world,
it's a
shock to the system.
Because you're actually technically not
equipped to live in that world.
It's an interesting comparison to make, but when you hear people talk in these terms, you think of
someone that had been incarcerated in jail, or you think of someone that went off to
maybe the military and then returned after war to a normal life and couldn't sort of acclimatize
to what it meant to just sit in silence alone.
And in many respects, although those examples are quite extreme in many cases,
your experience of going, being a football player since sort of five years old,
being drafted into this elite academy at 13 years old,
and then spending the rest of your career in sort of institutions,
where high performance institutions, high-performance institutions,
where, as you say, you were distracted from having to think about being a human
and you were an athlete.
Your identity was an athlete.
Your expectations were based on being an athlete.
Your sense of validation came from being an athlete.
And suddenly, boom.
It's over.
Look, actors often go into depression boom it's over look actors
often
go into
depression
or problem
when they go into
a character
for a movie
because at one point
they don't know
who they are anymore
they become
that character
so when you put
that cape
as a player
for more than
20 years
and you have to be
what you have to be for people
because you might transcend them
because of what you transmit
the feeling that you have of your club
and with the fans
that
you know
almost like you're like yeah I belong
when I had to fit in for a very long time, now I belong.
When that goes, can't wear that cape anymore.
And when you wear that cape, you feel different.
Responsibilities, performing, losing, winning, doesn't matter.
But you know the next day what you need to do in order to compete.
Put the cape on.
When you leave that cape,
it's like you're naked.
Like, oh, wait, I'm going to admit it.
Now they see my weakness.
They see my things.
You see your weakness.
You feel it.
It's different.
You know, it's like whatever it is for you,
that when you put your cape, you're like, okay. You know, when it's like, whatever it is for you, that's when you put your cap,
you're like,
okay,
you know,
put it down.
You're like,
Oh,
I don't like,
I like,
I don't like that so much,
you know?
So how do you deal with that?
I mean,
when I say you die,
obviously it's strong.
Understand me well with what's happening in the world at the minute.
Maybe it is strong to say,
but that part of me died.
Never come back.
That can never come back.
A singer can sing.
You can have your concert
up until,
I can't play anymore.
You have to deal with that.
And that,
it's tough to deal with. It's tough to deal with that. And that, it's tough to deal with.
It's tough to deal with because that's your medicine.
You can't take it anymore.
So there's another life.
Obviously, it's not the end.
But you need to learn how to be at home,
to connect with your missus.
To connect with your kids.
Because the way of connecting before
was very minimal.
When you think about it.
You're never at home.
So now you arrive at home
when you stop your career,
you're like a guest.
Well, that's what you do, you guys,
when I used to play.
You know?
It's not, understand me well.
I'm not complaining, I'm not saying,
you know, people have, you know,
I understand, I'm just trying to explain
what I went through, what I'm going through.
Arsene became,
it seems from reading your story,
a bit of a substitute father for you at one point.
When you moved to AS Monaco after Clairefontaine?
Yeah.
So you were 17 years old when you moved there.
Arsene's the manager at Monaco at the time.
Does he, because this relationship you have with Arsene,
you know, that time you go off to Monaco,
I think there's a little bit of a sort of a disconnect
from your father in some way.
Is that accurate?
Yeah.
Yeah, well, the thing is,
how do you tell your dad
that he needs to step aside
in order for me to have my career,
it's my life,
when he did everything for you at that moment,
as a dad dad by the way
but how do you make him understand
that now I need to fly alone
is that a conversation
is it
no it wasn't a conversation
no it wasn't
that never happened
it just
I made him understand
you made him understand you made him understand
yeah
the look
the
you know
making
you know
making sure that he was understanding
that he couldn't come anymore
but you know
if he's asking me for some tickets
I wasn't maybe sending them at times
or stuff like that
you know because
talking was tough.
So you indirectly rejected him?
Yeah, you do, you do, you do.
No, it's not rejecting,
but it was too much at one point.
What was too much?
The pressure of pleasing him,
the constant, he was always there, which was good, don't get me wrong. But the pressure of pleasing him, the constant,
he was always there,
which was good,
don't get me wrong.
But it's like for everybody,
you're not going to be
always on top of your kids
in whatever,
because at the end of the day,
you don't help them.
I needed to make mistakes
by myself.
Have you got specific memories
of when you thought
you played well,
but he just...
Oh, so many.
I mean, that one also is very famous in France.
People still talk to me about it.
They still, when they see me in the street,
they say the name of the team that I played against.
Yeah, it's a very famous one.
It's a true story.
We played a game.
I was 15.
Already then you can see if someone is kind of good or not good.
We won the game 6-0.
I scored six goals.
And I know we're back.
So I stepped out of the game.
And I knew, I'm sure you're the same.
If I was like this, I swear,
you believe me or you don't believe me,
the aura of my dad, I knew even without looking at him,
if the man was happy or not.
So if you're turned around, you can feel it.
Even before, like it was that powerful.
You could just feel his energy.
I could feel it.
And he wasn't happy? I turned and I saw him.
I can tell you any posture.
And I knew if he was happy or not happy or whatever.
So we arrived in the car, you know, silence.
So I'm like
shall I talk
shall I not talk
okay
like
you know
so
yeah
it's exactly how we were
so he goes like
you happy
so I'm like
what shall I answer?
Yeah, but you shouldn't because you miss that thing.
You miss that thing.
You miss that control.
You miss that cross.
You miss that this.
You miss that that.
You miss that.
Then I arrive at my mom's house.
I always remember he dropped me at my mom's house.
I go up and I'm walking
like this.
My mom is like,
did you lose?
I said,
no,
we won 6-0
and I scored
the six goals.
And then she
looked at me
going in.
It was often
like that.
Why was he
doing that
in your view?
I don't know.
Like I always say,
you know,
I tried to
come to terms with it.
But you need to understand something.
My dad never read.
My dad never traveled.
My dad knows only one way, his way and what has been told.
And if I compare how I've been brought up to
how he's been brought up
there's a world
so for him he already
you know
put that down
so you can't
you can't be upset with someone
that tries to do
his best and educate you
with his tools, I don't have the same tools
my box of tools has more tools tries to do his best and educate you with his tools. I don't have the same tools.
My box of tools has more tools.
And my kids will have more tools than me.
So you can't be upset with that one.
You have to come to terms with how it was.
That's how it was.
Now, you need to accept it.
But digesting it is when it becomes tricky because you can always accept everything,
but the impact that it has on you after,
it's on you to deal with that.
The values he gave you and you learned growing up up until you ultimately move
on to, you know, Juventus and Arsenal, the values that made you successful in hindsight, when you
look back, what are those values that are transferable to any industry or any discipline
that put you where you are? Because listen, you know, people can be born with great genetics they can
be born with whatever but that isn't enough it's been proven time and time again that that isn't
enough to reach the highest of the highs and have a statue of yourself you know over there in london
there's got to be a mindset a character or values underneath there that creates that legend?
There's so many things, but that I understood.
You know, you talk about also a lot of guys that I came across in my career helped me develop something that was in me.
I do believe that we all have something in.
Now, are we going to develop it?
It's a different ballgame.
As you know, my upbringing was rough, strict.
But it can go both ways.
Yeah.
It can make you or break you.
I decided it was going to make me.
But I had to put my dad on the side at one point.
I had to put everybody on the side at one point
and concentrate to the path.
Now we're talking about, it's a different topic now.
We're going to talk about what I became
and in bracket the animal I became when I was a player.
That's a different ballgame.
That comes with seeing Dennis Bergkamp every morning working hard.
That comes with seeing all those players at one stuff working hard.
And I'm looking at it and I'm like, how am I going to move those guys?
If you add, obviously, what my dad gave me, never be satisfied.
Do more.
It's always what you didn't do well.
Obviously, I had a certain attribute.
I was fast.
That's the only attribute I had when I was young.
I was fast.
You have guys that are technical or see the game or whatever,
awareness or whatever.
I was just fast.
So I had to work really hard.
And I know people will say,
oh my God, okay, that cliche sentence.
No.
I had to work really hard every day. My left foot was
poor.
I had to forget about it.
And I still didn't manage
to be better during my career.
I got a tiny bit better.
But I worked free kicks. I couldn't take a free kick.
Anything.
You know, repetition is key.
Repetition, I always say, creates
habit.
So I knew I knew I wasn't you know, repetition is key. Repetition, I always say, creates habit. You know,
so,
I knew,
I knew
I wasn't
as gifted
as so many players,
although
I did everything
that you're supposed to do.
I went to Clairfontaine,
I played under 15 in France,
under 16,
under 17,
under 18,
under 19,
under 21,
first team.
So people,
when they see my path,
they always go like,
yeah, I mean, not true. It was always going to be, no, first team. So people, when they see my path, they always go like, yeah,
I mean,
it was always going to be,
no,
not true.
Not true.
I always had to battle.
But,
when you know that the hardest thing
that I had to do
was to please my dad,
the rest was nothing for me.
In brackets.
Not disrespecting anything
that happened in my career,
but,
that was
so easy compared to
what I had to do in order
to please the old man.
And my young
self is still waiting for that approval.
Still?
Yeah, I'm trying to connect with the little man.
You know, I'm going to a different
discussion now, but I'm still
trying to connect with the little man.
But I go back to, sorry, to what you asked me.
What did it teach me?
It's obviously to never give up, do more.
But there's something that was missing
that I understood late.
And I think for me, the best leader you can be,
the leader or the greatest leader do have that.
And I was missing that for a very long time,
which in sport, because you have to play a game
and you have to, you're not here to, you know,
oh, you have a problem, well, let's have a talk about it.
You know, when you play, you play.
It's tough during a season, it's tough during a game, it's tough.
But vulnerability and empathy was missing.
Those are the two greatest points of a leader for me.
When you show vulnerability and obviously you show empathy,
you can go places.
You can go places. You can go places
because if your group knows
that you're like them
and they can relate,
although you might be hard as you know what,
they will follow you.
But in football,
because of how it is,
because it is taboo sometimes
to be vulnerable,
it is taboo to show emotion,
the emotion, that emotion, the know, the emotion, that emotion,
the crying, the this, the that, especially in my time in a dressing room,
you couldn't say anything.
It's a bit more accepted now if you say I'm not well mentally.
And thank God for that, by the way.
But all the above that you can imagine,
for me, it was always trying to be the best version
that I can be everyday
did you think you were going to be
the player you become?
no
how do you
how do you
look I just wanted to please my dad
how am I going to think
that I
if I saw it I'm going to have a statue in front of the Emirates?
I mean, how?
Even when you were playing at Arsenal
and you were winning them golden boots
and you were winning everything and the Invincibles and all of that,
you were still trying to please your dad at your court.
In a way, yeah, I couldn't see it.
That constant look of,
to not name a movie,
the pursuit of happiness
or the pursuit of pleasing people.
I love that movie.
So, yeah.
But that was my,
it's kind of weird when I always say
when your medicine is your poison
because you always chase that.
Were you happy?
I don't know.
I never asked myself that question.
I couldn't care less.
I just couldn't care less.
Like you saw it.
I mean, you saw me play,
so I couldn't care less.
You saw me, my face was always hard.
It was always, you know, I could smile.
It's funny.
I always say, and this is why I always say to people,
and in France, they used to have a go at me
because I never used to celebrate my goals.
I always used to stand in a stoic manner,
way or, you know, always proud or rage.
But people never used to see.
When I used to give an assist, I always used to smile.
Pleasing.
Watch.
Assist.
Smile.
Goal.
Rage.
Sweet, eh?
But pleasing again.
Giving.
I was always smiling.
You see, even now I smile.
But goal?
No. Goal was just like, I smile. But goal? No.
Goal was just like, that's what you had to do, man.
Because you're making the player that you've given the goal happy, I guess.
You're giving them...
It's interesting because people who grew up in environments
where they had a parent or parents that they were trying to please
often tend to exhibit two traits.
One of them is being an empath.
The term empath is like being so emotionally sensitive
to how everyone's feeling
in every room all the time
because that started
at a young age with,
you know,
and then the second
is people pleasing.
And they always say
people pleasers start
with trying to please
one or more of their parents.
And it's funny,
there's a cliche
about comedians, right?
Comedians,
whenever I sit with a comedian,
the question is always
which one of your parents
was depressed? Which one of your parents was depressed?
Which one of the parents were you trying to
put a smile on their face?
And this is cliche that comedians are depressed.
Whereas when I've interviewed comedians,
they say, no, no, no, no, no.
It's my dad that was depressed.
And at four, I was trying to make him smile.
And it's so interesting that in your case as well,
it was a very similar thing.
This question though, like all of these great achievements,
you know, won the World Cup, you know, the Invincible team,
all these trophies, the peak of your powers,
and you can't tell me whether you were happy or not.
No, because for me, I did what I had to do.
When you went home though,
when you went home
after a great game,
you get home,
if I'm a fly on the wall
in that room,
do I see a man
that's happy?
Yes,
for a little while
and then you,
because that's how
the game is,
you know,
I was talking about
Gary Clichy,
which is my assistant and I, you know, I was talking about Gary Clichy, which is my assistant
and I,
you know,
played at Man City
and Arsenal
with me.
The other day,
we were
in camp
with the national team,
obviously being my assistant.
He said to me,
Thierry,
do you remember
what you did one day?
I'm like,
I don't know, man.
He said,
we won the league.
So he won the league with us
when we stayed invincible.
He said to me,
okay, where was the party tonight?
We're going and everything.
I said, I'm not going to no party tonight.
He said, yeah, but everybody's going.
I said, yeah, but I'm not everybody.
Stayed home.
He said, why?
I said, we have the Euro. Going home he said why I said we have the Euro going home
everyone went to the party
I didn't
so understand
for me it was like
hey I have the Euro
just the next thing
yeah
so you tend
at one point
not to enjoy it
while you're playing
that was my way was it the right way or not I don't know but it was mine not to enjoy it while you're playing.
That was my way.
Was it the right way or not?
I don't know,
but it was mine.
So,
girl was like,
you were crazy.
I said,
I don't know if I was crazy,
but that's how it was.
For me,
I have the Euro.
I need to concentrate for the Euro.
So,
I didn't go.
Which sometimes can be seen
as a guy that keeps himself
to himself
or doesn't want to belong
in the team?
Well, I surely did when I was on the field.
For me, that's the only thing that matters.
Are you going to cover me?
We don't have to be friends after that.
It goes back to what you were taught to value, though.
You weren't taught to value party, celebration, happiness.
You were taught to value performance on the pitch.
You have to perform
and so
I said to you
when you put that cape
that's what is
asked of you
then
when I arrived
towards the end
of my career
I realized something
that was big
something I was missing
is I always
thought
that titles mattered and yes missing. Because I always thought that titles mattered.
And yes, they do.
But I always thought that that's
the only thing
that mattered.
But it's not true.
It's not true.
It's how you, as I mentioned before,
it's how you transcend
and what you can transmit
and also how you inspire people.
That matters.
And I never thought about it when I was playing,
again, because I didn't have those tools also.
When you went off to Barcelona,
an adjustment period took place
and you were married at the time
and then you went through a divorce.
This question of love comes back into the picture.
You know, if you'd grown up in that household
where your parents got divorced
when you were seven or eight years old,
you know, you look back, who taught you?
And then you were in academy at 13.
So you get married,
the marriage falls apart when you're in Barcelona.
Who taught you how to be in a relationship?
Nobody.
Or to love a woman.
Nobody.
You deal with it.
You learn.
You fail.
Again, you mentioned it.
I arrived at Barcelona.
I arrived injured.
I was divorcing, adapting to a new life,
new language, new team, new way of playing.
People don't care.
I don't ask people to care, by the way,
because that's how it is.
But it's not easy.
It was tough.
It was tough.
Don't see, you don't, you know,
I couldn't see my daughter for a little while.
You know, and people expect you to perform.
So what do you do?
You put the cape on.
Put the cape on because that's the only way.
So, okay, you put the cape on.
You're like, okay,
and you do feel that everything goes away.
It's a feeling though.
It's an impression.
It's a lie.
But when I put that cape on,
I feel like you can't see that I'm hurt.
I feel like you can't see
because now people see the player.
So in a weird way,
you want people to know
and you want people to know how you feel
that you're not equipped right now to perform.
And in the same time,
you put it on because you don't want them to know. Do you the same time, you put it on
because you don't want them to know.
Do you understand what I mean?
100%.
It's kind of weird.
You're like, you know what?
Let me put the cape on
and then they will attack the player.
You want help
but you don't want to ask for help.
You do, but you don't.
It's kind of weird.
You want someone to go like,
oh, this is what's happening to him.
And you're like, thank you.
But you don't want to say it.
What were the symptoms?
You said the word hurt.
Again, if I was a flower on the wall
in that room in Barcelona,
when you were alone,
what was going on in your head?
Well, just imagine I like to please people
and everything everywhere was a no,
no, I wasn't playing well,
you're divorcing.
So I'm feeling I'm letting my daughter down,
I'm letting the fans down, I'm letting my friends down,
myself down, everybody down.
Just imagine how I am, I'm wanting to please people
and it wasn't happening.
So, tough.
Cape on, cape off, tough. But the easiest way to deal with it was to put the cape on cape off tough
but the easiest
way to deal with it
was to put the cape on
when the cape's not on
what are your thoughts
saying to you at that time
well you kind of
as a human being
like did I make the right choice
you know
and I said it I think
at a particular moment,
football wasn't really
my priority.
If the cap was on,
obviously,
but even before,
when the cap wasn't on,
it was still football.
You need to rest,
you need to this,
you need to that.
But there,
it wasn't because,
it's actually,
technically,
and this is not me
having a go at my dad
or the relationship
or anything,
but i was
like you know when you swear that if you get married you never get divorced because you know
and you you know very little about life obviously and i was like i know this is exactly what happened
to me or what's happening to me what are you doing you're repeating yeah to yourself like you know
you you kind of like what are you doing this is why i said i said so many times and i will say
it again my biggest fear is not to be a good dad and so i was go in my mind that doesn't mean it's
not because you're going to divorce you're going to be a bad dad. But in my mind, I'm letting people down.
I'm a bad dad, I'm a bad whatever.
Do you understand what I mean?
In my way of thinking, I'm like,
and that's my biggest fear.
Still now is to, you know,
because I'm learning to be a dad.
Like everybody, by the way,
because, you know's that's but
you know some doors I didn't have some emotions I didn't have I wasn't often at home
and still not often at home when did you what was the moment when you realized that your playing career was behind you?
You know, you obviously went off to America for a while
and then you transferred to the New York Red Bulls
and then you retired at sort of 37 years old.
But was there a moment where you realized, a day,
where you thought, you know what,
I'm not going to be on the pitch as a professional player anymore?
Yeah, there was a day, and you might laugh,
but my daughter was at home in New York.
I suffered of Achilles problem for more than 10 years, both side.
I was in pain every morning, really.
Pain.
Pain was never going away.
All day, both side, both of my achilles uh just i just some
sometimes i felt a bit better sometimes no but every morning i was in pain afternoon night
for 10 years so i'm at home with my daughter and she comes she comes close to me and she comes close to me,
and she touches me,
and she goes,
you hit,
and she ran.
I wanted to run.
I couldn't.
I wanted to run.
I couldn't.
I looked at her.
I said, hey, you won.
I couldn't chase her,
and I stopped.
I went, what are you doing?
Like, I couldn't.
I just couldn't I I'm not even
joking Stephen I I she ran and I just couldn't move what are you doing that's when I knew I
couldn't handle pain anymore because this is why it is people forget about anything that you can
think of you need to love pain to be an athlete.
And I know, no pain, no this, whatever,
all the, you know, the... The correct sense of pain.
Oh my, no, this is real.
You need to love pain.
However, mentally, physically, love it.
You need to love it.
If not, stay where you are.
And then you retire eventually at 37 years old from professional football.
What happens then?
I was in a way happy, I'll tell you why.
Because I stopped.
Some people stop because of injuries,
some people stop because of different stuff
I stopped
it wasn't my terms
I stopped
you know it's better than
people were like Thierry you still can play
oh I knew I could still play
but I stopped
so I didn't have a problem with stopping
like you know
the fear that day
I didn't have a problem with that but I didn't know what was going to come after Coping. Like, you know, the fear that day,
I didn't have a problem with that.
But I didn't know what was going to come after.
You prepare yourself,
you pass your badges,
you prepare yourself mentally
and whatnot.
But then,
how do you feed the competitor?
How do you feed the guy
that loves to please?
When he can do it
or not every three days.
How?
When did you know that you were struggling?
When I was aware.
Because the cape was always my thing
to make sure that when I felt the struggle coming, cape.
So I knew it before, but I was lying to myself.
I was going to make sure that that feeling wasn't going to go too far.
So I put the cape on.
But then when you're not a player anymore,
you can't put that cape anymore.
So then everything starts to creep in.
You know, you think,
you go back to what happened,
what you became,
how you were with people,
how you behaved with people.
Were you a good guy were you a good guy
not a good guy
was that necessary
sometimes not necessary
you start to replay
everything in your head
on how you were
what you did
and the impact you had on people
the impact that you had on yourself
what type of person you want
to be for your kids
and that's when it becomes scary because you don't have the answers what type of person you want to be for your kids.
And that's when it becomes scary because you don't have the answers.
Because usually you have the answers for everything.
Terry, tomorrow, or that guy,
okay, I'm going to work out on that,
work on this.
It's going to be better next weekend.
I'm going to work on this.
I'm going to work on that.
Don't worry about it.
I'm going to work.
You know what?
Next year, you'll see I come back. My left foot is going to be sound. My this, my this, my this, my'm going to work on that. Don't worry about it. I'm going to work. You know what? Next year you'll see I come back.
My left foot is going to be sound. My this, my this,
my this, my that. I had answers.
Now all I had is
questions.
That's about it.
Too many questions, brain,
thinking, overthinking.
And when you overthink, usually you
don't go to the positive
thinking. When you overthink, you tend to bring yourself down.
And whatever wasn't good in your life,
you try to find a way to make sure that you can cover it.
But care wasn't around anymore.
So how do you do that?
Were you sad?
No, sad, no.
No, sad would not be the word.
I wasn't sad,
but I was trying to find an explanation
of what happened to me,
regardless of why it is.
Because I'm a guy that likes to have an explanation.
I need to know why.
And when you cannot answer it, it is annoying.
I find that annoying when I cannot,
and not everything has an explanation,
but this is the way I am.
I always need to have a logical or illogical explanation.
Even if your explanation is not logical,
explain something to me.
So when I cannot understand and comprehend
what's happening to me,
it's a tough one.
What's happening to you in that moment post-retirement or what happened to you in your career?
Everything, everything came at once, especially during COVID time.
Because that's when I really stopped.
Because again, I was trying to find a way to find that cape.
So you pass your badges.
You're becoming a coach.
You try to do something to make sure that you're not going to think about
what's been chasing me for a very long time.
When are you going to deal with what happened to you?
Whatever it is, to you, to me, to whoever.
But we tend to run instead of facing our problems.
That's what we do all the time.
You stay busy, you try to avoid the problem
or not think about it.
But then COVID happened.
And when COVID happened,
what are you running?
Why are you running?
What are you doing?
I was isolated in Montreal for a year.
Not for a year, I would say, you know,
whenever the, you know, three month
and another two month or whatever it was.
And not being able to see my kids for a year was tough.
Was tough because, I mean, it's a title, right?
So I don't need to even explain that one.
But yeah, it was tough because
something like that had to happen to me
for me to understand vulnerability,
empathy, crying,
you know, understand that
emotions are emotion,
just don't become it.
You know, it's, you know, anger is normal. Jealousy is normal, emotions are emotions, just don't become it.
Anger is normal.
Jealousy is normal, but don't become jealous.
Anger is normal, don't become angry.
I couldn't, before, if I feel anger,
man, I become angry.
If I was a, again, the question I asked earlier, If I was a fly on the wall in quarantine
Watching you
What would I have seen?
Me crying
Almost every day for no reason
Tears were coming along
Why I don't know
But maybe they were waiting for
They were there for a very long time
I was crying for everything
Everything Watching a movie They were there for a very long time. I was crying for everything.
Everything.
I'm watching a movie that's not even really sad,
but I'm crying.
You know, everything.
I don't know if that needed to come out.
I don't know if...
You know, it was weird.
In a good way.
In a good way, there was some stuff that I couldn't control.
And to be fair, I didn't try to control them.
And I couldn't hide them.
I couldn't surprise them.
And do you want even to surprise them, really?
You know, but you've been told since you're young,
whether it was at home or in your job,
don't be that guy, man.
Don't show that you're vulnerable.
If you cry,
what are they going to think?
Which is,
it's not the end of the world.
But for me,
like if,
when I was young,
I saw someone crying,
I'm like,
what are you doing, man?
You know,
I'm like,
really? Type of thing. So it was, yeah, you would I saw someone crying. I'm like, what are you doing, man? You know, I'm like, really?
Type of thing.
So it was, yeah, you would have seen me crying.
You would have seen me.
Technically, it wasn't me.
It was the young me.
It was me, understand what I'm saying?
But it was the young Thierry there.
What was he crying for?
Oh, for everything he didn't get.
Approval.
It's kind of weird to say that.
Approval.
I got that.
I still get that all the time.
But I didn't want to hear it.
You know,
it wasn't,
it wasn't like,
it was coming,
but not fitting my little man.
So my little man,
at one point,
took control of that body.
And,
and it was tough.
You know, you need to have the balance.
This is what I'm trying to do now,
to have the balance between me and my inner child,
which is not an easy one.
This is why I always say to people,
once you have that discussion with that little guy inside you,
it's scary, man.
It is scary, because what he's going to tell you is everything that you didn't want to hear
or trying to avoid for a very long time.
And it took control.
And what did it tell you?
Just be yourself, be human.
Show who you are, really.
Stop fronting, stop lying,
because we're liars.
We pretend.
We live in a world right where,
let's all be honest,
we live in a world where
we've all been told,
do not judge the book by its cover, right?
We do the total opposite.
Every day we do the total opposite.
Go and try to find a job with a tracksuit
and you arrive with your hood on.
Walk in and see if they're going to receive you.
But we've been told since we're young,
right, Stephen?
Do not judge the book by its cover.
That's a lie.
That's all we do.
Our appearances matter.
And then we keep on saying to our kids,
no, the look doesn't matter.
Really?
Look doesn't matter. Let? Look doesn't matter.
Let's all be honest.
It does.
We want to pretend
or think that you've been,
we are saying the right things
because it looks cool.
But when it comes to do it,
it's a different story.
It is a different story.
Look, we go, you know,
this is why I like the movie Black Panther, you know,
when he's in the museum and the girl says, what are you doing here? I said, that's from
my village. What are you talking about? So we have stuff that have been in the world
stolen for however it was, however it happened or whatever, that are in museum,
that maybe you're from that part
and you can't go in
because you're not dress real
or because people are making money
out of those things.
And what are we doing?
What are we talking about?
And we're sitting here
trying to say all the time,
pretending or whatever it is.
It's a bit all false.
So you tag along, you play the game,
but that has an impact.
I remember the first time I experienced
something that would be considered a mental health issue.
And I remember almost the shame I felt
because I never thought that as a young CEO at the age of 21, I always had to be
the tough guy, but also I always thought those mental health challenges happened to other people.
So there was almost a bit of struggle with my own sort of shame and accepting my own vulnerability
that, and like, do I talk to someone about this? do I keep it to myself when you're in that room
in COVID
and you're crying every day
and you don't know why
at that point
do you have someone
that you can talk to
about how you're feeling
truly
and be 100% honest
with how you're feeling
all these years later
you must have been
what
40
in your 40s
yeah
it was
2020
yeah it look in your 40s? Yeah, it was 2020.
Yeah.
It, look,
it's tough.
It's tough because,
you know,
I'm trying to bring myself there.
It's very difficult because
I don't know
who the human being was. Like, I don't know who the human being was.
Like, I don't know.
I just didn't know.
Like I said to you, I go back, I didn't have those doors.
I didn't have those tools.
I didn't know.
I just didn't know.
Everything was new for me.
That part of my body, those doors that I didn't have before,
the understanding
of that side
of the game,
when I say the game,
talking about life,
obviously,
dealing with love
and it was weird.
Weird.
My way of dealing
with love was like,
you know,
like I said,
pleasing again,
like, you know,
giving presents to people.
Oh my God, I'm happy. Then I asked myself that question. What makes you happy, like I said, pleasing again, like, you know, giving presents to people. Oh my God, I'm happy.
Then I asked myself that question.
What makes you happy, Thierry?
Oof.
What makes you happy?
Obviously my kids.
But again, it's my kids.
What makes you happy?
I had zero answer.
Zero.
So, you know, when you...
It's kind of weird because I...
When you look at it,
this is what I would like to achieve,
but it's virtually impossible.
Whether you act with your brain or you act with your heart.
And at times, both feels good, especially with your heart because it act with your heart. And at times, both feels good,
especially with your heart
because it brings in different emotions.
And when you act with your brain,
it's a bit more, no, I'm not doing it.
Here it's like, let's see what's going to happen, right?
But both, if you can balance, right,
your thoughts and the way you act
and you can walk on the rope, you know, like the funeral, we call them. your thoughts and the way you act.
And you can walk on the rope,
you know, like the funerals, we call them.
Tightrope.
Tightrope, yes.
And you are walking on there
in harmony with your inner child,
connected,
balancing
decision with your heart and decision with your brain.
That's in my head the image of the perfect human being.
You walking on a tight rope with your inner child,
balancing decision with your brain and with your heart.
Because if you go too much, that side, you're going to fall.
Although you are in harmony with your inner child.
If you go that way, you're also going to fall,
which we all know it's impossible.
But that's, you know, so I had to, in my head,
create that picture.
I have the tattoo of it, by the way. But I had head create that picture. I have the tattoo of it, by the way.
But I had to create that picture
in order to see what I'm aiming for.
I needed that.
I needed something.
You know, before it was,
you're trying to please your dad,
whether I was aware or not aware of it,
it doesn't matter.
It was in me.
What am I trying to do now?
What is it?
So I had to draw
something. In that room, did you know, if I was in a room in the pandemic and I'd been, you know,
the superstar athlete, and then I find myself in a situation where I'm crying in the hotel or in
the room, are you self-diagnosing? Do you understand what that is at the time no but i had to do it
so do you do the body the body okay the body does heal itself well if it's going to be beautiful or
not it will eventually in a certain way heal itself. And even if you walk in a weird way
after, you will walk, your body will readjust or not. Why can you not heal yourself alone mentally?
To a certain degree, because you need help. I understand that.
But this is what I'm saying if you're exposed to something
for so long
it would have an impact on you
but somehow along the way
you did adapt to it
like you will adapt to living
in a hot country or in a cold country
I go and say how can you live here
you're like I grew up here man
so I got used to it
that doesn't mean it's okay
but you do in a way adapt to it
or you learn how to live with it or you don't so i did learn how to live live with it with a lot
of impact on me as you can see with a lot of consequences that i'm still trying to deal with
but yes i do you do self deal with it or self-diagnose yourself without realizing it.
Did you, it sounds like you were struggling
with a form of depression
when you were in that phase of your life.
Did you know that that's what it was?
No, that's impossible.
I don't know.
I didn't know.
In hindsight, do you think that's what it was?
I would like to think so. But how do I know? Because I don't know. I didn't know. In hindsight, do you think that's what it was? I would like to think so.
But how do I know?
Because I don't know the signals.
Like, I cannot tell you that I was or wasn't.
I don't know the signals.
Like, I don't know.
The chief said to me right now,
I don't know.
Like, if you give me any of the signals,
not any of them, let me tell you.
Anger, this and that.
Yeah.
Oh, yeah.
I was angry, man.
Yeah.
Were you?
I'm like...
But how you've heard people characterize it now
and describe it now,
does that...
Yeah, it does ring a bell.
More than a bell.
But was it...
You know, look,
I'm a human being.
So I have feelings.
Throughout my career and since I was born,
I must have been in depression.
Did I know it? No.
Did I do something about it? Obviously no.
But I adapted to a certain way.
That doesn't mean I'm walking straight.
But I'm walking.
You got to put one foot and another one and walk.
That's what I've been told
since I'm young.
And it doesn't matter where you're from.
It doesn't matter what you do.
It doesn't matter your job.
You got to walk.
You got to stand.
No matter how rough the sea is,
whatever it is,
you got to stand and walk.
And people have, you know,
way older life than I had, obviously.
But I'm just saying it doesn't matter.
You have to get up and walk.
So do I realize,
because I never stopped walking,
then maybe I would have realized,
COVID, I stopped walking.
Because I couldn't put a foot after. And again, I couldn't.
I just couldn't, Stephen. So that's why I was like, oh, I need to pause. Then you start to realize and you start to have a thing. Then you start to whatever. I know it's kind of a cliche one.
You need to stand. It's not how you fall, it's how you stand.
Yeah, we all know, right?
Not trying to be, you know, clever here.
But I've been told, you know,
keep on walking.
I say this because your story
brings to light a bunch of statistics
that I was reading about
as it relates to mental health.
Someone dies by suicide in the UK every 90 minutes. 76% of these are male. 25 attempts
for every death. Single biggest cause of death for men under the age of 45 is suicide. Single
biggest cause of death for 15 to 49 year olds. 19 to 35 year olds are twice as likely to report
being in the car these stats are absolutely shocking and they're set almost 80 percent of
this is men it's the it's crazy stat that people always talk about the single biggest cause of
death if you're under the age of 45 uh i will this is please this is not a sexist thing or whatever I don't want to enter the battle men, women
this is not where I'm going
but it's not easy to be a man
that sheer pressure
and it is
and the stats will tell you
and I keep on saying
I don't know
this is not me trying to say that I thought about it or whatever.
Not at all.
Not that.
But I told you that there, I'm sure you remember.
My kids saved me.
And I'm not saying that just like that, but literally.
I'll explain.
Yeah, I'll explain.
I don't know where I was going mentally.
I don't know. Really, I don't know where I was going mentally. I don't know.
Really, I don't know where I was going.
Because when I came back from COVID,
came back home, I didn't
see because after that year, we were
allowed back home.
But then I knew if I was
going back to Montreal, I don't know what
was happening with COVID if I was going to not
see my kids for a year
or whatever. So I'm at home, next thing you know, it's a month, whatever. I packed my bags. I was going to not see my kids for a year or whatever. So I'm at home,
next thing you know,
it's a month,
whatever.
I packed my bags.
I was about to leave again.
So I said bye to my kids.
Everybody was there.
And do you remember
when I told you
my young me
never got any approval,
never got any recognition,
no, how can i explain that no no love in brackets apart from the you know the we have food we have this but it was never
a gig or saying or nodding or any approval like that pack my bag i. I'm like, okay, daddy's about to leave. Next thing you know, I put my bags down
and
everyone starts to cry.
So I put my bags down
to say bye
to everybody
and everybody starts to cry.
From
the nanny
to my girlfriend,
to the kids,
everybody was crying.
And then Stephen, for the first time,
for the first time,
and I know people who say, oh my God, Thierry.
For the first time, because at that moment,
it was the little me that felt it.
I'm like, oh, they see me.
Not the football player, not the accolades,
not the,
and I felt human.
Not,
you know,
me always trying to please people
because,
oh, you play football
or you can put your cape on
or this is why they like you.
That's what they want to see.
They want to see a guy that's strong,
a guy that's going to perform,
transmit, transcend, inspire,
and the above.
So be that guy.
Okay, boom.
Let's do it again today.
Let's do it again today.
But for the first time that day,
I was like,
oh, they see me.
They were crying because you were leaving.
Yeah, but they were crying for me.
They were not happy or crying for the athlete.
Understand me well, I'm not saying they didn't before.
I never realized it.
I felt it the first time there.
And my little me, for the first time, got fed with love.
Put my bags down,
but I told you,
and I stayed.
I stopped coaching in Montreal.
I said, what am I doing?
What am I doing?
Going to go again into a situation
just because your pursuit of pleasing people
and stuff and stuff.
They love Thierry, the kids.
Not Thierry Henry. They love Thierry. The kids? Not Thierry Henry.
They love Thierry.
So I stayed.
And for the first time,
and I'm not scared to say it,
I felt human.
I felt like they saw me.
Like the human being.
I was like, well, that feels nice.
It feels really nice.
This is why I said my kids saved me.
So I don't know where I was going.
I don't know if I was going to obviously go back,
not see them again.
I don't know where mentally that would have brought me.
I don't actually know.
But that day is a special day for me
because yeah, what they did fed my little me.
And you know, when you've been looking for something for so long,
but you don't know what it was, you just don't know.
It's annoying.
It's like you're looking for something.
You know, you're looking for something,
but you don't know what it is.
And you've been thrown a lot of things.
No, that's not it.
No, that's not it.
No, that's not it.
That's still not it.
Still not it.
And then out of nowhere, when I wasn't looking for anything, it came.
But it was right in front of you the whole time.
Yeah.
Was I open enough to say it though?
That's the thing
was I you know this is why
COVID you know made me
you know my
vulnerability empathy
understanding
those emotions
so the doors were there
so suddenly
when that happened
oh I was like oh oh, that door.
Well, that's a new door.
That's nice.
Open, boom, done.
Before, like,
maybe that happened before
and I never felt it.
If you know what I mean.
It's kind of weird,
but I felt it that day though
and it did resonate.
And you quit working in Montreal?
Yeah, straight away.
Straight away.
It reminds me,
I got a flashback to speaking to Patrice.
Patrice Evra.
Patrice Evra grew up in the south of France,
I believe, rough area.
No, same town as me.
Oh, same town?
Yeah.
South of Paris, same town.
We're from the same town.
Les Ulysses.
Patrice is a good friend of mine.
And he told me, he shared it publicly on this podcast before,
that he, I think he was 40 years old.
And his partner at the time kept asking him like,
are you okay? Are you okay? Are you okay?
And then one day, she's at home, they're having a little bit of a tiff.
And she turns to him and goes, Patrice, are you happy?
And he looked at her and he burst into tears cried for the first time in his life and it sounds like a similar moment
a similar sort of unlocking him it was the first time in his life he could ever show that emotion
and he said it was that moment the first time time I ever cried, the first time I ever showed her emotion, because up until then I'd been a tough guy.
And it was just a question asked at the right moment,
the right question from the right person,
that inspired him to boom.
And he says that's the moment that unlocked his emotions.
And obviously he's on a journey as well with it.
Yeah, no, no, no, I know.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, Patrice.
Look, it's...
Yeah, this is why I literally say that they saved me
because I don't know where I was going.
I really don't know.
I really don't know.
But like I said, it's very difficult for me
to compare to the way I was before
and why you worked in bracket then and not before.
Because I was blind.
Like I just said, I said so many times,
you know, I could see, so for example,
you put me on the field, I see solutions.
Because I used to see the game with my brain,
not with my eyes.
I'd explain.
You have dimensions on the field,
right?
Right?
It's a rectangle, yeah.
If you put your head up,
what can stop you?
This is why great players
always pass the ball in the air.
You know, when they arrive by the box,
they lift it.
How do you defend the air? You the ball in the air. You know, when they arrive by the box, they lift it. How do you defend the air? You can't
defend the air.
So I always
used to say, you can't pass me
because they think that the line is
there, right? I used to chip the ball over your leg.
Because I can
pass you, you can't defend the air.
20
billion people defending me. If you hold
the line, ball in bowling behind you're dead
not on the ground
in the air
so I used to see the game
with my brain
I see life with my eyes
and eyes can be pretty deceiving
so
you know I see obstacles
you see with your brain
you're like
okay how can
oh
I can go through there
okay
no problem
but life
I used to see it
I'm trying to change
obviously
I used to see it
with my eyes
so no
no no
but when it came to
competing
I was like
it's impossible
that you can stop me
so okay oh okay that's the that you can stop me so okay
that's the solution
you sound like a man that's been to therapy
because you use terminology
that I've typically heard from therapists
things like the inner child
no that's something that I've seen since I'm young
oh really
I always knew that
I was disconnected with my little self
and the thing is that's how I used to play disconnected knew that I was disconnected with my little self.
And the thing is,
that's how I used to play.
Disconnected?
No,
it's just,
I see,
you know,
since I'm young,
like,
I see a solution.
Like,
if someone says,
we can't do this,
I'm like,
why?
Why?
It's like,
you know, I mean know you saw me play
I used to come in midfield
and take the ball
and go
I'm going to goal
and at particular moments
anyone will go like
oh it's impossible
it's 1v9
and I explained
so many times
it's not 1v9
it's 1v1
if I beat you
I beat the line of four
if I beat you
my center back after I beat the line of four. If I beat you, my center back after, I beat the line of four.
Then I beat the goalkeeper.
It's 1v1 at the time.
It's 1v1.
It's 1v1.
Then I score.
While I do it or not, it's a different ballgame,
but I was capable of visualizing the path
instead of seeing,
so 1v9, let me put the the ball back why are you putting the ball back
like okay
Steven 1v1 I don't care about the two guys
on your side if I beat you they're dead
it's nothing they can do
now you and me after center back
let's go
I'm not saying and I didn't go through all the time
it's a lie but
I'm not saying, and I didn't go through all the time. It's a lie, but I'm seeing the solution.
So it's always something that I used to have.
So, and again, to be in situation,
at one point you need to overanalyze yourself,
but am I seeing someone?
Yes, I'm seeing someone.
I'm not lying with that,
but the two points that you raised are always at that But am I seeing someone? Yes, I'm seeing someone. I'm not lying with that.
But the two points that you raised are always at that.
Because I was annoying as a player and as a student.
I was always challenging my coaches.
Always.
I needed to know, why are we doing this drill?
I was never going to do a drill in training.
Like, boss, why?
Yeah, but we don't need that in the game.
Oh, how can you say that?
Just being honest, I'll do it.
But I don't think we need that in the game.
I just wanted to know why we're doing this.
Why is it going to be relevant to how we play?
Like, I got in trouble once at school.
We were analyzing a poem,
you know,
oral,
whatever.
Tell me what you think of that poem,
whatever.
So I think the author wanted to say that,
whatever I said.
The teacher was like,
no,
that's not what he meant.
I'm like, wait,
can I speak?
I go, Thierry, you always have something to say.
I said, well,
not always, but I mean,
anyway, so I said to the teacher,
have you ever met Victor Hugo?
She said, no.
I said, how do you know what he meant then
isn't that the beauty of words
can I not see something different that you see
as long as you don't bring
Victor Hugo here and you tell me what he really meant
I'm not going to go
with what you're saying
she sent me to the headmaster office
but what I'm trying to say
I was always that guy
why are you going to tell me
what I see of it
it's good
that's what you think
maybe the guy was drunk
when he wrote it
maybe he was under something
I mean one of the best
Disney movie
is Alice in Wonderland
I mean when you look at best Disney movie is Alice in Wonderland.
I mean, when you look at... She clearly wasn't something.
But it wasn't the beauty
of letting someone
open their mind.
So I always have been big
on that.
Even young, without realizing
I needed to know.
So just imagine now, knowing all the ingredients now about me,
imagine now in that room overthinking.
Yeah, in Montreal.
Yeah.
Because I need an explanation.
That's why I'm saying someone.
Because I need explanations.
And sometimes you don't have all the tools.
Are you still looking for answers?
No, I'm trying to deal and digest
with what happened
because now I have the answers
but it's not because you have the answers
sometimes that you understand what happened
you know what I mean
I can give you the answer of a riddle
and you're like
did you understand? No
you know what I mean
so you can have the answer of something and you're like oh okay
cool yeah did you get it though yeah yeah yeah that's the answer no no did you get it yeah yeah
so that's that's the get in it and the absorb in it and the digesting part of it that i'm trying to
to to come to terms with i guess it breaks down into three stages, which is to know, to understand,
and then to do.
Like the behavior change.
So to know something is one thing.
We can all know things.
We all know we should go to the gym.
And you don't.
I'm not saying you, obviously.
But people don't.
They know it's better,
and they still don't.
Yeah.
And then understand why that matters
and why you should go.
Not everyone understands that.
And then to do it, most people don't do it
so there's three stages to implementing something we know
and you're in the stage of
understanding and implementing
it's tough though man
it's tough late in life
even with me
with emotions and affection
I always called my parents
by their first name never called parents by their first name.
Never called them by their name.
Yeah, yeah.
Never hugged, never nothing.
So going into a relationship as like a 31-year-old man,
it's all very, like you were describing, awkward.
Sometimes I feel like I'm faking it when I say things,
like emotional things.
I know I've got to say it, but I can't connect with it.
I'm classed as like an avoidant emotionally.
I avoid...
We all do.
However, this is why I call it the cape.
Cape can be anything.
Yeah, for me it's business.
So sometimes...
Yeah, exactly.
When I know...
Not anymore.
When I knew a conversation was going in a certain...
You know, was going somewhere I didn't want to be
and I'm like, hey, I have to was going somewhere I didn't want to be.
And I'm like, hey, I have to make a phone call.
Like an emotional conversation.
Whatever things that I didn't feel comfortable, I'm out.
As a dad now, is much of your motivation to do the work based on who you want those three children to be
and the dad they want to connect with?
It's tough because like I said to you,
it's not about not getting a good example.
It's not the word.
But I didn't have any example.
Understand there is a difference.
We're not talking about good example.
I'm talking about I didn't have a real example
of a couple at home.
So for me, that's already difficult to deal with example. I'm talking about I didn't have a real example of a couple at home. So
for me, that's already difficult to deal with
that as
a dad because
oh, my dad used to,
you know, it didn't
happen because he wasn't around for
that.
Then I
myself wasn't a lot at home as a, as a player, as a dad. And that carries on because
of work or thanks to work, but because of work, but thanks to work, if not also, because if not,
there's no home, there's no nothing, there's no... But having said that,
trying to find the right balance on something that I already struggle with myself
of being at home,
but also how to behave when you're at home as a dad.
And that's the fight of a lot of men.
That's why they pursue work.
Because it's in our head
more of a comfortable place is your comfort zone
while you think it's your comfort zone
because nothing can be more comfortable
than being with your kids.
But again, you pretend to live a certain life than being with your kids.
But again, you pretend to live a certain life because you're afraid to find yourself in a situation
where you don't know what to do.
And it's kind of awkward or weird.
So you're like, oh, people are going to see me naked.
They see my weakness.
I have work to do. I'm going to the office. So you leave. Oh, I are going to see me naked. They see my weakness. I've work to do.
I'm going to the office.
You leave.
Oh, I'm going somewhere.
Oh, you find a way to go somewhere all the time.
You know what I'm saying?
And I'm not trying to, you know, let me rephrase that.
You don't find a way to, but when things comes,
you don't say no.
That's a better way to explain it. you don't say no. That's a better way to explain it.
You don't say no.
Instead of going, no, this is time with my family.
Because we are privileged in the way to say no.
I'm talking about being privileged.
Because sometimes you cannot say no.
But if we are privileged, what are you actually chasing?
Yes, money. Let's all actually chasing? Yes, money.
Let's all be honest.
Okay, money.
Okay.
But what are you...
Is it more important
than spending time
with people that you love?
But because
you don't know how to behave,
it's kind of a weird way.
And then you said the same thing,
your way is work.
Okay, yeah, I've been at home for a week now.
That's not really me, you know?
So those are the stuff
that are difficult to deal with in my brain.
It's kind of weird.
I know people say, really, that's really hard.
Yeah, for me, it is really hard
because I've never been a homebody.
I've never been at home.
Since I'm 13, I've been on the road.
You know,
live almost alone,
you know, on flights or somewhere,
you know, whatever it is,
you know, so that I know well. I'm not is, you know, so that I know well.
I'm not saying it's good,
but that I know well.
So I'm like,
if you're in a theory tomorrow,
you need to do this alone or whatever.
You need to go back with travel.
You're like, yeah, that's fine.
Sometimes, oh, that's tiring.
No, it's okay.
But it's also comfort, right?
It's familiar.
It is.
It is.
It's interesting because
this is why when you're young,
as a kid,
you always want to watch the same cartoon that you know even is the
same episode. Because knowing what's coming next makes her feel comfortable. The familiar, whether
it's healthy or not, the therapists I've spoken to on the show always talk about how we unfortunately
try and recreate the unfamiliar as adults, even if it was unhealthy. And they
say that in relationships, people will go for a partner, even if their father or mother was
abusive, they'll go for that because it was the way they learned love. And I think about it the
same with our careers as well. It really is a difficult adjustment to make later in life to
go from being almost like institutionalized. And I use that word to describe the life of a top athlete that's always you know preparing for a game always
flying around the world always got a cliff focus to suddenly having none of it um and to have to
as you described almost like rebirth yourself there's a death and there's like a rebirth and And this is exactly why I said you die.
You do.
It's a shock.
It's a shock to the system.
When you, whatever you do in your life,
by the way, I loved it.
So I loved football.
I still love, but love football as a competitor,
like the athlete.
Regardless of what people say, you still can play football. Yeah still love, but love football as a competitor, like the athlete. Regardless of what people say,
you still can play football.
Yeah,
I know.
Not like that.
That is over.
I don't care what people say.
No,
you know,
you can work on.
No,
that's over.
Never going to play again.
Never going to play in the Prem.
Never going to play.
Never.
Never.
That's over.
That's dead
so what's the
new
Thierry
what's the
what was born out of those ashes
what's the next chapter
for me
my biggest challenge now
is to be a good dad
I don't really care about the rest
I do understand what I'm saying
so to speak
but in comparison to that
is to be a better dad
because I'm not there yet.
Not at all, actually.
I have a
long way to go.
But I'm working on it.
You know, I'm not perfect.
But I'm aware of what I'm missing.
That's always a good start.
So for me, that's
what I would say.
You know, a better dad and a good start. So for me, that's what I would say, you know,
a better dad
and a better partner,
you know,
because for so long,
you think
that what you're doing
is to please others,
bring money back,
to have a good life
and everything.
But along the way,
you're missing
the right moment
and a true essence of life.
This is why I said sometimes it's tough to be a man
in a certain way.
We've been told that we need to go out there and be men.
I don't even know what it's supposed to mean.
Do you understand what I mean?
That's why before I go back to oh be a man, why is that?
because not showing emotion is not being a man
but I've been told
not to show emotion
that's being a man
that's wrong
so I need to readjust to that
you know, go out there
be that, be strong
be the level of expectation of always you know, go out there, be that, be strong,
be the level of expectation of always delivering whatever you need to deliver, you know,
be a good dad, be a good partner.
It's like for everybody, by the way, you know,
I'm not talking about gender and everything,
but I'm a man.
So, but be a man, what is that supposed to mean?
If you could go back and have a conversation
with that five-year-old Thierry
and you could say a couple of words to him
that maybe would have helped him later in life.
That's a tough one because...
That's a tough one because I always say,
I always say, when people ask me that,
I'll say, enjoy the ride.
Enjoy the ride.
And I enjoy it because I forgot to enjoy the ride.
Do you regret that?
No, I don't regret it because maybe if I did enjoy the ride,
I would have been different.
It's so weird for me to say that,
but this is what I will say to him now,
knowing that he might have an impact on his life
and maybe not being that good of a player
or maybe better.
I don't actually know,
but I don't regret stuff
because that's what made you in a way.
You know, you learn from people who are scared
of failing.
I wasn't scared of failure.
I was more scared not to please people
but failure, you're going to fail.
And that's what makes you.
That's what shapes you.
So when people say I don't regret it
because it makes you be better
or a better man
or a better person
or whatever it is.
So I don't have regrets.
But I think along the way,
we forget to enjoy living,
to enjoy it.
We just do it.
It's like breathing.
You don't think about breathing, right?
Are you living now? Yeah, I'm enjoying it. I'm trying to enjoy it. We just do it. It's like breathing. You don't think about breathing, right? Are you living now?
Yeah, I'm enjoying it.
I'm trying to enjoy it.
I'm trying to accept, you know,
when people say something to me,
like I never used to take a compliment well,
as you can imagine,
because what used to trigger me the most
was what I didn't do well.
So when someone was like,
oh, Thierry, you were good.
Well, that's what I'm supposed to do.
Thierry, we have a closing tradition
on this podcast,
which is kind of interesting
because the last guest leaves a question
for the next guest,
not knowing who they're leaving it for.
And it's funny that this is the question
that's been left for you.
What do you most regret from your childhood
and how are you working
to resolve that regret?
What do you regret? Actually your childhood and how are you working to resolve that regret? What do you regret?
Essentially, I don't regret anything.
But what I would say to solve it,
in a way, I don't regret it.
It's true.
It's not a cliche thing.
I do think that when you...
Your mistakes will make you better, hopefully.
But what I would say to my young self
is actually enjoy it.
Don't forget to enjoy it and be happy.
The question before,
I'm going to ask you instead
because I already asked you that.
What things are you doing
that are contributing to keeping you stuck
or stopping you from progressing
in the way that you would like?
Pleasing people, still.
Yeah, because it's something I cannot get rid of.
But I need to balance it out with my own happiness.
So I can't help myself.
Pleasing people, that's something that I have in me.
And I think, you know what,
I think personally it's a good trade,
but you can't go too far with it
because you forget your own happiness.
What do you want people to, you know,
we know the Thierry on the pitch, the legend,
but what do you want to be remembered as,
especially considering you've got so many chapters
of life left to live?
Like I said to you, I just want to be remembered. Because if you are remembered, it's because you've got so many chapters of life left to live. Like I said to you, I just want to be remembered.
Because if you are remembered,
it's because you've done something.
You're going to be remembered.
But that's good enough for me.
It will depend on people.
But for me, what matters right now
is how you transcend people,
what you transmit and how you can help people.
For example, to be able to open up
like the way I am matters for me more than,
because when you did succeed
and people see you as someone that they like to follow,
tell them you struggled.
Tell them the real you
for them to understand fully what's happening.
And that matters more than any title that I won.
That matters more than anything else.
Be honest,
stop lying.
And I did lie for a very long time because you have to,
because the society wasn't ready to hear what you have to say,
especially in my world.
But that,
if it can have an impact on someone's life,
and the other day I was in Miami,
I will be honest with you.
I don't,
I don't really,
I don't get bothered.
I'm not too bothered when people say,
oh my God,
Cherry,
like I love it.
I love to hear it,
but I'm not like after like,
did you see what he said?
You know,
I don't take it too far,
but there was a guy the other day
I'm in Miami
a cop he came
and he says to me
Terry can you
can you sign on
on my arm
I mean what you
what you
what you gonna do
it's just like
I mean
say no I'm gonna tattoo
your
your
your
autograph
and I was like
and I looked at him
I said come on man
you have
you know more important stuff to do.
And he goes like,
no, you changed my life.
So I looked at him and I went,
sorry?
He went, yes, man,
you don't understand.
Through the struggle,
I was looking up to you
and you changed my life.
I didn't know what to say.
I didn't know what to say. I didn't know what to say. I really like, I stopped and I look at people and I went, then I realized what matters. Then I realized without knowing from From the mission of a man, from the mission of my dad,
actually throughout all the struggles, all the problems that I'm still dealing with,
that's for that.
That is exactly for that.
Because you, that man said to me like I changed his life
saved him
from playing football
it's like I said to you
it's what you transmit and how you transcend people
I don't know why he saw
because I had to go
and I actually took his
address and his name
I still have it at home
I need to write something for him
and send him something soon.
But that is something,
yes,
when,
like up until now,
and that's something,
yes,
I will tell my kids.
Not that I won World Cups
and stuff like that.
I will tell my kid.
Thierry,
thank you so much
for having this conversation with me
for many,
many reasons.
I met you in Paris
and I sat there in awe because I knew the player,
but I didn't know the man. And I sat there on the edge of my chair because I got a glimpse of the
man. And for me, you know, the stuff you did on the field, you're a legend. There's, you know,
there's almost nobody that I can, there's no comparisons there on the field.
But the thing that blew me away was your willingness to speak
so vulnerably and powerfully
as a human and as a man.
And that's why I then messaged you straight after
and said, please,
I would love to have a conversation with you
because it left such a profound impact on me
to think, oh my God, Thierry Henry feels those things?
Thierry Henry has those struggles?
It makes it okay for me to have those struggles.
And it will make it okay for the millions of people
that will listen to this conversation
to have those struggles as well.
And in normalizing it,
and us all realizing that those struggles
aren't evidence of my inadequacy
or evidence that I'm broken,
it's actually evidence that I'm a human being too,
like Thierry.
Exactly.
Helps me to move past those struggles.
And that's one of the most powerful things,
and I think one of the most inspiring things
that you can do.
And it's another example of Thierry
and re-transcending in another chapter
of his life in another way.
So thank you so much.
Thank you.
And I say that thanks,
I extend it on behalf of everybody listening as well who would love to be able to say it to you. Thank you so much. Thank you. And I say that thanks, I extend it on behalf of everybody listening as well,
who would love to be able to say it to you.
Thank you so much.
Thank you.
Thank you, Stephen.
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