The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett - Tony Bellew: Nothing Made Me Happy Until I Found This

Episode Date: June 30, 2022

Tony Bellew is a professional boxer and a former British, Commonwealth and World Champion. As well as this, he is also an actor, and the star of Creed with Sylvester Stallone, and the author of last year's bestselling book, Everybody Has A Plan Until They Get Punched in the Face. In this raw, honest and emotional interview, Tony breaks down exactly why people dedicate their life to fighting, and how it’s often because they have no other choice. But also because it comes to fill a need inside of them, and Tony opens up on what this inner need can do to you if you leave it unchecked. Many times, Tony has had to bring his life back from the brink - of poverty, bullying, defeats, and his own emotional instincts. His story is a fascinating example of how it’s often things we’re good at that cause us the most trouble, but when we face that honestly we can come through stronger the other side. Follow Tony: Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/tonybellew Twitter - https://twitter.com/TonyBellew Tony’s book: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Everybody-Plan-Until-They-Punched/dp/1841884707 Follow me: https://beacons.ai/diaryofaceo

Quick one. Just wanted to say a big thank you to three people very quickly. First people I want to say thank you to is all of you that listen to the show. Never in my wildest dreams is all I can say. Never in my wildest dreams did I think I'd start a podcast in my kitchen and that it would expand all over the world as it has done. And we've now opened our first studio in America, thanks to my very helpful team led by Jack on the production side of things. So thank you to Jack and the team for building out the new American studio. And thirdly to to amazon music who when they heard that we were expanding to the united states and i'd be recording a lot more over in the states they put a massive billboard in time square um for the show so thank you so much amazon music um thank you to our team and thank you to all

of you that listen to this show let's continue every night i cry myself to sleep. Like nothing made me happy. Nothing. Tony Bellew! What a fighter! I believe I was put on this earth to fight. It was my father who taught me how to punch, and at 12, 13 years old, that's a powerful tool to show a kid. Finding out that your brother was gay being a pivotal moment, why? In the mid-'90s, it wasn't cool to be gay and black.

That's when I'd say the fighting takes shape. I used to brutalise my body, cannibalise my own body. There's five nights that I've had that I can't remember anything. That shield you put up to help you to survive, I'm guessing it's not serving you. No. Bellew to Hay-Nill. One of the things I will never forget

is the raw emotion that came out of you after you won that fight. You know, people look at you and think you're the success story. They look at the money you've got, they look at the scenario and the setup you've got, but ultimately, are you happy? Are you happy?

So without further ado, I'm Stephen Bartlett, and this is The Diary of a CEO. I hope nobody's listening, but if you are, then please keep this to yourself. Tony, from reading your book and a lot of other things that you've said over the years, one of the things that really stood out to me, because I think it's been front of mind, because a few guests have said this to me over the last couple of weeks, is

I was a product of my environment. And your early environment was Wavertree in Liverpool. Yeah. Take me back to that environment and tell me what it was about that environment that shaped who you went on to be and who you are today i am a product of my environment and i say that and the way i get to that is because it's no coincidence i'm a fighter i was just i believe i was put on this earth to fight it's something that i enjoy it's something that i. It's something that I'm not afraid of. Like, fighting doesn't... It never scared me, it never bothered me.

And I think that's a bit weird, to be honest, but it's just me. I can't change who I am. And the environment I was raised in definitely helped produce that, you know, from being a kid at the age of 10, my old man leaves home. He's gone, and then at that age, my little brother at that age of 10, my old man leaves home. He's gone and then at that age,

my little brother at that age is about six or seven. Me two elder brothers, one had moved out and the other one was on the verge of finishing school. So the elder one who finishes school then goes on to further education. He goes to university. So we keep moving on over a few years. And then once I hit

13, 14 it's quite apparent my younger brother's gay and then that's when I'd say the fighting takes shape and things take shape so yeah

You said your dad left home when you were 10 Yep How come? He couldn't keep his dick in his pants to the top and bottom of it and got caught

basically, fantastic father but you know, was carrying on, broke my mum's heart and was gone, yeah so a product of most men to be honest but that was the reason my dad was gone so he was carrying on, he had

an affair with some scutbag of a woman who knew he was married with four kids. And, yeah, he just, he let us, the thing in between, in his pants rule his head. And I think that he regrets every single day for the rest of his life, which he constantly tells me and does. But these are the mistakes men make. What impact did that have on your mother at the time?

It was heartbreaking, absolutely heartbreaking. As a kid growing up, it's not nice, mate, watching your mother cry herself to sleep at night, and the other things that go on in life, it's heartbreaking, very, very tough, and you don't understand how tough it is when you look back as an older, as a grown-ass man, you realise how tough and hard it really is so heartbreaking yeah getting to see the impact of like infidelity in your own home has it impacted what you're like as a man with your oh that's deep i've never been asked to questions like this but it's all good yes it does add a life where i try my best to learn from others' mistakes and not just my own.

So I would never, ever in a million years have an affair. Ain't happening, just not going on. Not a chance. Things sit with me, and I'll say I try my best to learn from other people's mistakes. But yeah, growing up in that period of time and that part of my life was very, very difficult. And you just just you have to

learn to adapt so then at that stage your home's broken and my friends then become my family me closest friends that the five or six of us that all go to school together they become my best friends and they become me brothers from there on in and you learn to cope with life and do things just because my dad done what he done he didn't detract anything from as a father he was a brilliant father he's been my greatest supporter since the day I was born I'm as

shining light, he believes in me like no one else could ever believe in me, like he adores me I know he does and I adore him I would do anything for my father but them years when he's gone, very very difficult, especially when he goes gone very very difficult especially when he goes to prison as well so that's hard as well you mentioned um you're finding out that your brother was gay being a pivotal moment why we always had a conscious thought that he was

because my brother's gay he's he's not he's not like it like, you hear my brother before you see him. He's out there, he really is. So we knew it quite early on, but as I say, as time goes on and you see the environment that he's raised up in, he's constantly around women and yeah, he just adapts and we see where it's going. But as a family, we understand and know we get him i love him he's my little brother but then for the outside world it doesn't go down well yeah in the air in the

mid 90s it wasn't cool to be gay and black like my brother's darker than me so he's the same shade as you are liam and that just didn't go down well. Yeah. Picked on in school regularly. In the junior school, it's not too bad. It's okay because it's kind of just looked at as being you're loud and you're out there. But when you start getting to a senior school level, it's like, oh, okay, he's gay. And then that comes with problems and headaches. And when you're raised in Wavertree,

being a kid growing up, I think I seen one gay man, one gay black man. His name was Skippy. No one would mess with him because he was like six foot three and his name was Skippy and he would fuck around and no one would just leave him alone because anyone who did try and mess with him, he was going to smack them.

But my little brother wasn't that way inclined at that age. He's not smacking no one, he'd just take a slap or whatever. So I couldn't allow that to happen. Though anyone who would step to him, I would step to them and it would always be me winning every single time. you found yourself defending him a lot oh yeah lots of times lots of times I mean the amount of times I'd have to go up to the school I remember being a kid taking my mum's car she was away she was on holiday and I got a phone call saying your brother's been threatened to be beat up from after school or some kid threatened him. So at this time, I think I was 16,

took my mum's car, which I shouldn't have done, went and got my little brother and I think I smacked someone at the school. Whatever was waiting for him, I'd give them a good beating. Driving back home, I have to think, I'm going to crash my mum's car. Really? Yeah.

And then bloody hell, no one's ever heard that story. Yeah, crashed my mum's car. Really? Yeah. And then, for the unknown's ever heard that story, yeah, crashed my mum's car into a taxi and then set off running for a couple of weeks. So, yeah. For a couple of weeks? Yeah, I was gone for a couple of weeks

back in the day. So, yeah, you could just go missing in them days. And, yeah, my mum's car was crashed, it's been stolen and stuff like that. So, yeah, lots of crazy things I've done

and experienced in my life but yeah this is the first time I've actually spoke about that side so you're the first well done

you've dragged something new something new I'm just so genuinely curious because much of my the reasoning behind my questioning is to really try and understand how someone came to be

who they are today and all of these like threads through your life of like the absence of your father which creates this void where you almost become the man of the house and then you've got this thing you need to defend in your brother and and even the race thing i find really interesting because your

mother is the same skin tone as me roughly isn't she yeah maybe a bit darker yeah similar to you yes but you you're like you're significantly lighter than me yes so having a mother who is i'm guessing considers herself to be a black woman she's black yeah yeah and growing up in that environment where there wasn't a huge a huge amount of black people did you find yours i was wondering this when i was reading about your story did you find yourself almost like a little bit like identifying with that community while also not being considered part of it by do you know what I mean? Yeah, of course.

So you're not black enough for the brothers and you're not white enough for the white people. So yeah, I've got that since I was a kid, but it doesn't bother me in the slightest.

It did growing up because you're trying to think who do I relate to, what do I relate to? I relate to just being a decent person, trying to do the right thing. I've done enough bad things

in my life to know that I'm a good person, if that makes sense. So, yeah, I have to... Race, colour, creed, it doesn't really bother me. You're either good or you're bad. But, yeah, it's not hard. I've always wondered

what it must have been like for my mother growing up, because that must have been very difficult, especially for, you know... And I know it was difficult for my mother and up because that must have been very difficult, especially for, you know, and I know it was difficult for my mother and father to be together when they first got together because my father's coming into a period at the time where the Toxteth riots are happening and for a white man with, you know,

a black woman and black kids and stuff, you know, he's had his fights regarding that as well. But for my mother, it must have been horrific at times. It must have really been hard. But she's strong she's a strong woman and she she can get through anything i saw that a lot my mom obviously my dad's white my mom's from nigeria so okay my mom we moved to cornwall right where everyone's white when i'm like one or two years old and my mom she just constantly like struggled with it her car being burnt by people by people locally shops been broken into and everything and she really built

a huge amount of I don't know anger and resentment towards people which I'm really happy I didn't carry with me but you know at that age even I had racism a lot of racism on the playground and stuff like that and being someone who wouldn't necessarily be a target of that racism yeah but would be could identify with the community because your your mother's black was that ever like a a thing where you would hear people would have the guts to be racist around you but they but because they wouldn't think you'd be offended by it but did you ever give you advice on how to get through that? Never. Or did you just work it out? No. Never.

I mean, I got in a few, probably the only significant fights I ever got in was someone calling me the N-word in school. Yeah. And I was the only black kid in school. Like there was obviously Cornwall, like 1992. Those were the only fights I ever got into. And I didn't really know what it meant. I didn't even know I was black

until someone called me the N-word. Do you know what I mean? It was, so. But did you get some advice on that? No, I wasn't even know I was black until someone called me them do you know what I mean it was so but did you get some advice on that no I wasn't giving advice I just found myself

I used to build a bit of a protective wall around myself so I would let people know I was half black within literally the first couple of minutes of meeting them

so that way it would shield them from saying anything because if someone says a racist comment in front of me I'm going to smack you or I'm going to do

something I'm going to butt you smack you I'm going to I'm going to smack you or I'm going to do something I'm going to butt you smack you I'm going to give you a piece of my mind I'm going to do something so I'd find myself

like meeting people and I'd be like yes I'm mixed race so yeah my mum's black my dad's white and some of them used to look at me and just have to say

why is he telling us that and I think because I just don't want to hear the comments that I'm used to hearing of this word that word I'd hear them all my life. And people would make smart-ass jokes

and, you know, degrade black people or whether it would be... I've heard every single word and phrase you can possibly imagine. And I would only hear them because they were undertone racism. It would be said because they thought I was white. Yeah.

And that was the most frustrating part. So then I felt myself letting people know, look, I'm not white, I'm not black, and I'm not white, but I'm just me. But yeah, I let people know what I was pretty much straight away, because if I hear that undertone or I hear that slight comment or dig,

I'm going to respond, unless it's a woman. And a couple of times I've had to let that go and it's been women who've made undertone comments. Only once, I think, I took it up with a woman because I was working in the sports centre for the Pilsen Council. And a woman, yeah, said the N-word. And I was furious and I just had to give it a piece of my mind.

And I called her every slut and sweat you can go on. And I actually lost my job for that. Yeah. Because, yeah, I went lost my job for that yeah because yeah saying I went too far well she just denied she said it but I was like you know I'm such a

quiet not quiet but I'm such a I treat people everyone with respect everyone I meet it doesn't matter whether you can be

anything in life I'm no better than anyone whether it's a fucking bin man on the street whether it's a fucking I was a lifeguard whether it's it's someone who's

begging on the street I am no better than them but believe was a lifeguard, whether it's someone who's begging on the street. I am no better than them, but believe you me, they're no better than me. Shouldn't disrespect anyone. So yeah, I gave it a piece of my mind. I lost my job and that was the end of that. You learn to deal with moments like that. And as I say, in the environment I'm raised in,

I've found a way of shielding myself, protecting myself. And then also my actions now speak louder than my words because of what i've what i've done with my career when i sat here with eddie hearn um it became really apparent that many of the successful people i meet start with this kind of innate desire to please a parent eddie's one of them right he kind of lived in Barry Hand's shadow you spoke to a lot of people wow Ant Eddie

yeah you spoke to them all but he was when I was reading your story I saw the same thing you had this real strong desire to impress your father

and I'm wondering why why because he's my dad and I adore my dad I love him not everyone has that though yeah because not everyone

has a father and I'm very fortunate that I do. Yeah, he might not have been living at home from the age of 10, but he's still my father and he still loves me and adores me. I know he does. My dad would do anything for his kids. He would literally die for all of his children. And that was passed over to me. I think that's why I adore my kids so much. But I always wanted to impress him. Why? He's my dad. So, yeah, he's my dad.

I want to impress him. I want to... A part of me wants to impress him and a part of me wants to do more than he's done. Do better. I want to impress him, but I also want to go further than where he's done do better I want to I want to I want to impress him but I also want to go further than

where he's gone and yeah I was lucky enough for Fortunes not to be able to do it especially when I mean my dad was a hard man

my dad couldn't fight you know rarely rarely fight but he tried the boxing didn't stick at it didn't go right and it didn't go right

because not because he's not hard enough or tough enough just because he's mentally he can't stick with it, didn't go right and it didn't go right because not because he's not hard enough or tough enough just because he's mentally, he can't stick with it he can't take someone jabbing the face off him because you know he goes nuts he attacks him with a stool in his second fight he's got a

wicked temper you would never know that as us as his children but I've seen it literally because I've worked on nightclub doors with him, I've strapped up a bulletproof vest at the age of 19 with him and we've been working side by side, working on nightclubs. So as a young kid, I just wanted to be like him. So when I realised what my dad was,

he owned a nightclub security company and he ran them doors brilliantly. You know, the nightlife in our city was fantastic. We had the best club in the city. People still talk about today it was called society and the the policy was three to one with women to men that you can possibly imagine the trouble that would cause and what we would get from the outside in and we created an environment and a place that was unbelievable and i've watched my dad go through so many problems and fights and things like that.

Whether he's been threatened to be shot, his house blown up, ran over, shot, stabbed, every possible thing you can imagine. Jailed twice. So, yeah, I just wanted to impress him. So the first step was working on the door with him. Well, no, the first step was going into the boxing gym. That was the first step.

Once I found out he couldn't progress any further with his boxing, I thought, okay, I'll show you what I can. I'll have a go. And it started off as just a bit of a macho thing. I'll show you this,

I'll show you that. Because ultimately, I didn't really want to box. I wanted to play football. I adored Everton Football Club and I wanted to be a professional footballer, but that's just a pipe dream.

But at the ages of 12 to 16, you think you can do it. And I was a big believer in my own beliefs. So I thought, if I work hard enough, I can do it. I've always synchronised working hard with getting to the end goal. I'll get there no matter how hard it is or how big the task looks. If I work hard enough, I'll get there. But that just wasn't the case with football.

Unlucky for me. But with boxing, I always watched it with my dad from afar. I wasn't his biggest fan, but I studied and watched because I was intrigued by it. And then upon finding out my dad couldn't stick at it and do it, I thought, OK, I'll have a go at this. And I was just insanely good at punching people. And that was from an early age, I knew, just straight away.

He took me on pads. I kickboxed the first got to a good level at that good standard and then knocked a couple of opponents out with punches in the face and I was only a kid at this age that shouldn't happen

dropped one and flattened the other one got disqualified for both contests because it was supposed to be semi-contest you're supposed to tap each other for the point and then point for you you go away let's fight again point for you and you get to like 11 points and you've won I think it was supposed to be semi-contact you're supposed to tap each other for a point and then point for you you go away let's fight again point for you and you get to like 11 points and you've won i

think it was 11 points and uh upon knocking people out with punches it was like oh you can't do this and at this stage it was my father who taught me how to punch he showed me the correct way of how to turn your fist over how to exchange it by the way from the end of your foot to the end of your fist and at 12 13 years old that's a powerful tool to show a kid. But I seen how proud he was the minute I knocked them kids out in the kickbox. And even though I got disqualified and I lost, I knocked these kids out with punches and he was extremely proud. And I was like, ooh, this is the way forward.

And even though I didn't know that then, mentally and subconsciously, I've took that on board, seen how much he's praised me, seen how much he's given me for doing it. And I've thought, that then, mentally and subconsciously, I've took that on board, seen how much he's praised me, seen how much he's given me for doing it, and I've thought, that's the way. So I keep flittering and messing around with that thought, and then ultimately I end up in a boxing gym, basically trying to impress my dad, I'm not going to lie,

that was the first reasons for going into a boxing gym, an amateur boxing gym and doing it. You knew dad had gone to jail twice, you the first first time before i was born first time before you were born and the second time when you were roughly around i think i was 14 15 14 14 15 yeah somewhere there about i'd have to go back in the years, but around roughly that age. What's that like when you find out that your father, someone you admire so much, is going to this place called jail where he's going to be locked?

That's tough. When I'd found out what he'd done, I agreed with everything he'd done. So at this age now, it's right. So someone stole his money. So at this stage, my dad owns a pub. As I say, he's running a security firm. He's got a pub on the side.

He's got his other job with deprivation. He's got so many things going on. And this pub, I think the guy stole £10,000 out the safe. The manager he was employing to manage took £10,000 out the safe and went running with his money. So my father picked them up, took them, kidnapped them, whatever they'd done, and phoned his home and demanded his money back.

And that was told a no, so he makes another phone call, leaves a voicemail, unbelievable, leaves a voicemail of what will happen if he doesn't get his £10,000 and that voicemail sends him to prison so yeah if someone stole £10,000 from me I'm not leaving a voicemail like but you know

no one's taking my kids money so and I know I get these thingos from him so you know no one can steal from me and take your child's money because I don't look at my money as being my money anymore I look at it's the kids and and I'm pretty sure that's how he looked it is so yeah he done what he done and then he goes off and I go and visit him and then that's when I think another pivotal moment in my life going to visit my dad in the big house is very, very tough,

but sticks with me once again. It's a part of my life where I think to myself, wow, I can never come here. He tells me one of the most important phrases he ever told me in life. I'm sitting with him and I'm on a visiting order. His partner, who takes me out to the visit, takes me there and he says to me, you see, a lot of people glorify jail.

You see lads in there and, like, I've done jail, I've done this, I've done that. My father was the only person I've seen say what he said to me, and I've never seen it said since. I've got friends who are in jail, I've grown up with lads from jail and stuff like that, and he says to me, son, don't ever come here. And I said, I'm not going to.

And he said, because you see this place? It's the house of failure. Everyone in here has failed. that so and he says to me son don't ever come here and i said i'm not gonna they said because you see this place it's the house of failure everyone in here has failed there's no winners in here there's no great people in here if you're in here you've failed and it sat with me forever just it's always sat with me so there's various things that i've done that i'm not proud of there's various things that if i would have been caught for it would have been in jail but it didn't uh and at the same time I'm very grateful for the words that he said because he stuck with me forever I actually I've got friends doing life I've seen friends you know being in jail for long periods of time I've visited a friend once recently and uh and we speak to him

and I told him the phrase my dad said and this friend of mine has done a long time in jail and he said to me, your dad was spot on. And he's sitting there, he's done nearly 16 years, he's getting old soon. And that's what he said to me.

He said, your dad is spot on. He couldn't be any more truthful and couldn't be phrased any better. If you're in jail, you've failed. So no one should glorify jail. No one should put a badge of honour on it. There's nothing glorious about sitting in a prison cell. Nothing at all.

But I'm not stupid enough to think that that couldn't have been me. It could have been me. With the cards I'm dealt, it could have very, very easily been me. I'm just very fortunate that it didn't happen happen to me when your amateur boxing career starts are you still being tempted by those kind of temptations you talk a little bit about that in here yeah street life street life yeah definitely because there's no other way to earn i've got no qualifications i've been expelled from school for fighting right yep for fighting for smashing someone's face in but while he was

stabbing me in the head with a compass so yeah it's a but these are this is the life that you know

you just it's looked at as normal I know when you look back now it's frightening to think that like if someone

stabbed my son in the head with a compass wow it's truly frightening but it it didn't deter me

or bother me at all crazy like I walked up to and watched them hold the compass and i knew i only had fists but it didn't it didn't intimidate me didn't scare me and yeah when you get expelled from school at 15 what do you think you're going to become in your life is it were you still thinking you might like 15 what's the hope yeah it's once what you're going to be when you grow up? What would the response have been? At 15, after getting kicked out?

Locked up. You thought that's what help was going to play out for you? Yeah, because I know I wanted nice things. At the age of 15, 16, I always know I wanted nicer things. And I just, at that stage, especially being expelled from school, I had no idea I was going to get them. Why did you want nice things? Why was that so important?

Because I read throughout your story about these nice things Why did you want nice things? Why was that so important? Because I've read throughout your story about these nice things. You just want nice things. You just want... So the nice things that I looked at was like, as a kid, the only... I can't believe I wear it, so I got a gold chain.

I bought this chain. Now, the only reason I have this is because I wanted that as a child and I've never grown up. It's the one thing I wanted. I thought, right, if I can get that, I've cracked it. I don't wear a chain out on my top

and show this and all that that's not me now but as a kid growing up I thought that was going to be me the chain out and the cross and the diamond you know you're growing up in similar environments

and that's what you want but I get it because in my mind I think I've got the things I wanted but I've worked hard and I've done it the right way

I did have it in me where I was thinking I've done it the right way I did have it in me where I was thinking I'll do it the wrong way as well and that's once again where the touch up on being a product of your environment

because everybody else is doing it everybody else who had nice things where I'm from everyone was selling drugs there's no other way to get nice things

no one where I'm from I didn't ever see a doctor where I'm from I didn't see a solicitor where I live I mean the first time I found out what a solicitor was,

it was because a lorry crashed into our bus on our way to school. My mother took me to meet him. That's the only reason, that's the only way I found out what a solicitor was. Isn't that so crazy? It tells you so much about what's wrong with society, right? Why are? Litherland High School.

Litherland School in Liverpool. I know where it is, but I didn't live anywhere near. I went to a place called Chilwell Comp. I went undercover in Litherland as a teacher. Did you really? For a TV show. So Litherland School, that's a predominantly white area. Yeah.

Yeah. It's the North End. Is it a rough area? Because it felt... It's not rough. Is it not rough? Litherland's actually nice. Really?

It's a nice part of Liverpool. You would say Litherland's really nice. Really? Yeah. They're really, really... They were like the lowest ranked on Ofsted or whatever. But I remember a kid there in the school, Steve. Liverpool you would say Litherland's really nice really yeah there's really really they were like the lowest ranked on Ofsted or whatever

but I remember a kid there in the school Steve I went to his house but he thinks I'm a teacher and he goes he goes he goes I think I want to be a millionaire when I grow

up but there's just no millionaires around here I've never met any and he goes he goes it's hard to be something that you can't see and I always remember him saying that again that speaks to much of the problem in society

where those kids don't have role models. So they can only aspire to, and it's a big part of the show we did, the, what do they call it? The networks of people getting young kids from schools to deal drugs. I can't remember the bloody name of it, but so what ends up happening is these adults

from out of town message these kids from Liverpool on Instagram and say, listen, you can make some 50 quid if you just move these drugs for me. And then they end up going through that path, which... The cycle of deprivation. Yeah. And that's how it starts. But you also have to understand that in them areas,

like I've just touched on, no one was coming from my area and was going to be... Like, it's only since I've grown up and I've realised, so three of us got expelled from school. There was me, Tinker and Walker. Three of us were permanently expelled. Now, them three people, me, Tinker and Walker. Tinker is one of the lead professors in Leeds University.

He was expelled the same as me. Walks is one of the best journalists in the whole of the country for sports this boy knows everything about football boxing the only reason he knows

everything about boxing is because the dope didn't like the fact that I knew more about boxing than him so he started studying boxing which is insane and then there's me

and we're I say we're best friends we grew up then there was Neil there was Danzy he was a footballer he was set out from the start he was amazing

he was always going to be a footballer he He was set out from the start. He was amazing. He was always going to be a footballer. He was just unbelievably gifted. So between the four of us there, growing up within two miles of each other, no one from them areas I'd ever seen before or heard of before me had ever come a professor, an amazing journalist,

a professional footballer, and then a professional fighter, world champion. And we were four lads who all went to school together, the closest of friends. And that's just four out of about the eight of us. The others have good jobs and stuff like that, and they've cracked on with it just fine, and they've figured out the way in life.

But yeah, that wasn't available to us as kids, because as I say, if I could tell you what that professor was doing now, finding and figuring out the way in life. But yeah, that wasn't available to us as kids. Because as I say, if I could tell you what that professor was doing now as 15, you wouldn't believe me. If I could tell you what the 16-year-old was doing and what was going on as the journalist, you wouldn't believe me. It's only the football out of us that I could say he was the goal we all aspired to be as kids because he was so driven.

Neil was just, he'd work so hard. When every spare minute he got, he was kicking a ball against the wall. He was training, he was working, he was playing for Liverpool. He was just unbelievably gifted but worked so hard with the talent that he had, whereas others didn't.

And I'd say for me growing up, it was like everyone who had nice things was selling drugs. And that's all you could really see because if I'd have seen a footballer from where I'm from, if I'd have seen a professional world champion boxer or I'd have seen a really educated, thingy-o-man living where I was,

then I might have thought, I can do that, but you don't, you just don't see it. So I go to schools to these sometimes now and I try and talk to these kids and explain to them. I don't feel comfortable going to places. So I got invited to Oxford and Cambridge

and I didn't go, I said no. And I just said, I don't feel, what am I going to say to people who've got brains the size of theirs? And they were like, they understand it's not about the brain, it's what you've tapped into up here yourself to make work for you. I said, yeah, but I can't, I'm not comfortable going,

so I'm not going. But I can walk into any school where I'm from and have a chat to them kids because I am them kids. I've been where they've been. I can relate to them. And I just need to get across to them. So I do that now with the programme that I do with the Weapons Down, Gloves Up.

A certain amount of it's in the book. But ultimately, it's just uh it's hard to get across to the kids in the areas that i'm from it really is because there is no way out and i understand there's no way out because i was there i was where you once was with no way out with no hope no job it's expelled from school and you just think what am i going to do so yeah it's tough difficult we talked a little bit about your father there the other um man in your life that you referred to as being a father figure is in chapter two which is jimmy yes he was a guy who was your i believe your amateur coach yes he was you know so blatantly

obvious from reading chapter two that he had a profound influence on you definitely in the short space on time i was around him and with him i just i got him and the very first time i met him i thought it's never gonna work so the very first time i met him he he basically just shrugged me off and thought i'm not gonna he obviously seen a talent so i walked in before i actually had an amateur bout i walked in there was under abc and i started punching a bag this had been the second gym I'd tried out so I went in this gym and

punched a bag and he comes over and says have you ever boxed before, I said no I've never boxed, he said don't tell lies, he said how many bouts have you had I said I've never had a bout in my life, he said kids who have never had a bout don't hit a bag like you, how many bouts have you had I said I've had no bouts, I said but when can I have a bout

to that smart ass comment from me he replied you don't tell me boy when you're gonna box i tell you he said about 12 to 18 months and i was like okay yeah walked out of the gym and never came back i went then went straight to a place called stockbridge abc that's a guy called mark kinney six weeks later i have my first amateur amateur bout. And all hell breaks loose. And I just think then I'm the Wavertrees version of Mike Tyson. I'm smashing people. You have to understand when you first have amateur bouts, very rarely, very rarely you'll see a stoppage.

My first three amateur fights all ended in knockout wins. And you just don't see that. Usually a lot of amateur fighters lose the first fight through nerves and anxiety and just being petrified it's normal I've only ever been nervous for two fights

in my whole entire life the very first ever amateur fight I had and then Goodison Park so I've never been nervous for any other fight fighting doesn't bother me I enjoy it

like I said before so it gets to a point I get disqualified my temper flares in the last bout I have a stock with JBC guy spits in my face

I butt him as hard as I can in the middle of the face referee throws me out I then go back to Rotunda this time I've now had four or five bouts four bouts I go back to Rotunda

with my tail between my legs I go back to Jimmy Albertina after him telling me it's going to be 12, 18 months this guy now knows who I am, he's seen me box, he's seen me fight and he's identified me as a talent I didn't know that, I'm only told that later on

in life because he never ever gave me an ounce of credit he never once praised me, not to my face anyway, it was only upon him dying that I found out that he thought I was going to be a champion, so which is crazy to think that he could see that because I couldn't see it at that stage but being with him and spending time with him he made me believe in him so much and a part of it

was because he pushed me to levels of work rate that i'd never seen before that i never thought i was capable of how hard we worked in that gym under his tutelage was as hard as any day i've had as a professional it It was really tough. He would demand only the best from you. And I don't know how he's seen the things he's seen, but he did. The guy was a genius. He was unbelievable.

So yeah, losing him was the first real loss I've ever had in my life. I'd lost, at this stage, I think I'd lost, I'd definitely lost my uncle at that stage which was a bit heartbreaking he was my dad's previous partner in the business

and losing my uncle Jimmy was hard but I could deal with it it was a progression he got cancer and he slowly slowly died and went away so that was a bit hard to lose him but the first real tragic loss I had was Jimmy that was hard.

Grief is the worst feeling in the world. It's the worst thing ever. Do you remember where you were when you got that call? Yep. Paul Smith phoned me. I was there. Paul phoned me and I was just sitting there and he was sobbing on the phone.

I said, whoa, whoa, what's wrong? Where are you? And he was just crying on the phone. I couldn't understand what he was are you and he was just he was crying on the phone I couldn't understand what he was saying and then I got the last word he said

Jimmy's dead I said don't be stupid I was with him two days ago because Jimmy had a quadruple bypass and he gets

the quadruple bypass and he just comes back too soon he started training again and he had a bevy and like pizza and food Jimmy was just

a proper man's man. And yet he came back too soon. So when Paul phones me and tells me that Jimmy's gone, I just couldn't believe it. I remember just breaking down crying, taking another car again with no licence and driving straight to the gym. The top Jimmy gave me. I remember sitting at the gym just crying and crying,

thinking, what are we going to do? And as selfish as I am, thinking, what are we going to do? And as selfish as I am, thinking, what's going to happen to me? Because at that stage then, being with Jimmy, I then knew I was going to be a fighter forever. Once I had two or three bouts, I won my first national championships and Jimmy was in my corner.

I fight in the under-10 novice finals. I fight against a guy with the same name, Muhammad, he wins the semi-final 10-0 I go in and knock him unconscious six seconds in the final to win my first ever national

title an under 10 novice title cleaned him out in six seconds still a record still a record to this day and

yeah it's at that point then I'm going to make me I'm going to make it as a fighter

after that national final victory and I remember running back the corner to Jimmy and jumping on the ropes and saying

I am the fucking best fighter you lot will ever see and I was in Nottingley Sports Centre in Leeds telling everyone I am the king of the world

I am the best ever now this is just so embarrassing when I look back this is a guy who was in his 10th amateur fight and I was telling people I'm going to be a world champion

and they must have been like what's going on jumps down from a guy I've just rendered unconscious and he's still asleep I've jumped down off his corner of the ropes

after screaming my head off I walk back to my corner and I says to Jimmy Jimmy how good was that it was amazing wasn't it and he just looked at me and went fucking shite and I said to Jimmy, Jimmy, how good was that? It was amazing, wasn't it? And he just looked at me and went, fucking shite. I thought, just knocked someone out in six

seconds and his response was, fucking shite. Lo and behold, he turns away to the other coach and just goes, and just does a face with a little thumb up. I didn't see that once again. You'd have to look back on the video and see him do it. He never gave me praise.

But then from what he told other people, like Jimmy, when Jimmy died, he got carried by six of us. Past champions, forums, present champions, Paul, Smith and Mick, and future champions, who he regarded as the future of the gym, myself and Paul. And I was a future one. Bear in mind, I'd only been around him at this stage for two years.

And he predicted I was going to be a future champion. So for him to predict that and say, unbelievable. He'll stick with me forever. I have his name tattooed on my arm. Yeah, so all my tattoos mean something. So, yeah, it's... Miss him every single day. Not many days go by where I don't think of him.

I'm close with his family and I love his lovely wife, Bernie and his kids, Michael and James and lovely family. They've now got kids and Jimmy's affected so many people's lives. Massive, massive part of mine. I will never, ever forget him and I will never let his name go. You know, whenever I am, I will always take his name with me and then you go on and do exactly that what um jimmy predicted you would do yeah which is crazy i think i'd be winning aba title but i won three of them i don't know if he predicted three but i win three aba titles i

box my country go all around the world I have amazing success as an amateur. Bear in mind that I've not got the style to be a good amateur boxer. My style was to render people unconscious. I've never got in a boxing ring and wanted to beat someone on points, ever. Well, that's a lie. One time I did.

I got in the ring against a guy called Danny Price and I really liked Danny. I didn't want to hurt him. It's the only time I've ever got into a fight and didn't want to hurt someone. And yeah. Amateur boxing is about skill and class. It's a proper sport.

Professional boxing is a brutal, horrible business. It's not a sport. It's literally a way of life. You don't live professional boxing the way it needs to be lived. You will get found out every single time and it will leave you in a bad way.

Amateur boxing was a beautiful sport. I was part of a team. I was in Rotunda ABC. I had great, amazing teammates. I had amazing coaches. Understand that these coaches in these amateur gyms, they aren't there for money

because there's no money in it for them. They're there for the love of the sport and to help kids that gym has saved more lives than anywhere i've ever been in my life every boxing gym does amateur gym and people use this and they use the phrase oh this thing saves life it literally does it saved mine it saved numerous lads i know in that gym's lives there's numerous lads there who have been to jail numerous lads who have been there who have been shot stabbed i've shot and stabbed people uh and it's and that boxing gym has kept them on the straight and narrow like there was there's so many wars that have gone on in and

around that gym but when you went to that gym that was the safest place in the world because no one would come in that gym and do anything to anyone because that was the safety that when you went in a boxing gym and that was because of the respect he had for someone like Jimmy. And that's what he demands. That's what saves areas. It's literally, you're policing your own neighbourhood. Something that has completely gone into today's environment. No one cares no more.

Like, there is no hierarchy within a criminal environment. There is no hierarchy on the street no more because every kid is out for himself. They do not care, that boxing gym demands respect and no matter who you are or what you've got you give that respect to that boxing gym so Jimmy was a massive

massive part of that and yet we were very fortunate, all of us to have him, without him mate it would have changed so many fighters lives in that place and in that community as well I don't it's not an understatement when i say save lives he literally did you said that the coaches aren't there to make money but a lot of the fighters don't ever make

good money unless they get up near the top of the sport right and i was i was actually really surprised to hear in one of the conversations you had where you said you hadn't even become a millionaire until pretty late into your career yeah i'd become a millionaire until a beast fell up called david a yeah when you think about what you're doing for a living you you're smashing your head up you're smashing other people's faces up yeah and it wasn't until you fought david hay which was in 2017 right correct where you you became a millionaire i remember that fight so clearly i remember i think i have suspicion i stayed up front I don't know why

I think I stayed up for it but it must have been somewhere in the world but I remember watching that fight so clearly and how it played out

I remember every round and the twists and turns and the emotions surrounding it all that was madness madness crazy

I've basically been fighting as a professional all my life at that stage I've both been fighting as a boxer all my life and

bear in mind when I go into the ring against David Haye, I'm British Commonwealth, European, world champion I've achieved everything I possibly can within boxing, I'm still not a millionaire I'm topping bills, I've fought at the Everton's football stadium, Goodison Park I've defended my world title

at the Echo Rios, you know I've sold out multiple venues at this point, I've fought on world title at the Echo Rios you know I've sold out multiple venues at this point I've fought on Skybox office multiple times at this stage and it wasn't because you were spunking your money at all

you weren't blowing your money I'm very wise with my money I was at this stage after I've won the world title and before I fight David Hay I I don't own my house outright yeah

I've got property one property that I rent out my me house outright, yeah? I've got property, one property that I rent out me first house. After that, I've got the second property that I've got a mortgage on. That's all I have to me name at that stage in life. Why? How does that happen?

Because that's boxing for you. Is it boxing? Yeah. Really, that's boxing for you. That's professional fighting. Unless you turn professional with a gold medal, there ain't no money at the start. And you've got to bank on,

how good do you really believe you are? How much do you really believe in yourself? Because you've got to back yourself all the way. So, you know, after five professional fights, in my hand, my left hand, third knuckle here, it snaps in half in the fifth fight of my career. So I get an operation on and off.

The best surgeon in the world, his name is Mike Hayton. And I didn't even have enough money to pay for the operation because i fought in the december i snapped my hand in half me me middle knuckle here this snaps in half and then i spend all of the six thousand pound that i've just earned to give the kids the best christmas they can possibly have on january the 11th, I'm skint, I haven't got a single penny in the bank. I've got a mortgage to pay.

I've got kids to provide for. But everyone thinks from the outside, I'm this budding professional and I've got loads of money because I've got a new car and whatever have you at this stage. I'm still living in my terrace house in Old Swan in Liverpool.

But from the outside looking in it's like he's on TV he's fighting if I'd said to people I earned £6,000 a fight of X amount I lose to the promoter X amount I lose

to the manager X amount I lose to the trainer I'm breaking even I'm lucky if I'm getting out with £4,000 £3,500 I'm lucky

after I paid the cut man all the expenses and training, very lucky if you get out with that. You definitely don't clear it because don't forget, she wants her cuts as well. The queen. HMRC.

So, you know. Yeah, so very, very tough. So then you have to do extracurricular activities to try and earn some more money and provide food on the table for your kids. So it's very, very, I couldn't explain.

I know what it's like to be skint. I know what it's like not to have a penny. I've felt financial pressure. It's a frightening, frightening thing and I understand why people do the things they do.

No one can tell me nothing about being skint or whatever. People say to me now, you would know what it's like to be skint. Yes, I would. I know what it's like to be skint with two kids as well. So's petrifying so you figure a way out and you get

through it and say all them achievements that i've that i've done and and and had it was all off the just to maintain that dream of one day becoming a world champion the frightening part is imagine getting to that point in life, becoming world champion and all that, and then thinking, my wife then says to me, and she's not my wife at the time, she's still my birth, well, she'll always be my birth,

and saying to her, she comes down, I win the world title at Goodison Park on a bank holiday Sunday, 29th of May, 2016. Yeah, I might as well just show you that as well. That's the belt of win. From Goodison? From Goodison Park, that's the belt of win. I watched that, that was a great fight. Thank you. I watched it earlier on as well just show you that as well that's the belt of win from Goodison

from Goodison Park that's the belt of win I watched that great fight thank you I watched it earlier on as well thank you so 29th of May 2016

I've completed the game I've completed the story I'm someone in life who's I've I've seen through me lifelong dream my dream in life

was to fight Goodison Park you know that was the best I was ever going to achieve the WBC title at Goodison Park you know that was the best I was ever going to achieve the WBC title at Goodison Park I've lived I've seen me dream through but I wake up on Monday

well that's a lie I didn't wake up I didn't sleep so I go down the kitchen on Monday morning bank holiday Monday and my missus comes down and she says to me that's it now you've done it it's time to stop and I'm like yeah I've achieved everything I set out to do. And yeah, it's gone well.

I said, but Gail was so financially far from security that I've got to keep going. At this stage, she now understands because she used to think boxing was a game. She used to think like, as an amateur, she didn't even recognize it. She was like, you've got head guards on. It's not even boxing.

It's just, it's basically, it's a game of tick. And I was like, fuck've got head guards on, it's not even boxing, it's just, it's basically, it's a game of tick. And I was like, fuck's sake, girl, if you only knew. We put a head guard on you and give you a jab,

you'll soon have a fucking different opinion. But, she's, she soon learnt, she soon learnt how I used to brutalise my body,

cannibalise my own body. There'd be times when I'd come home from training and not even remember where I've been. Concussion that I'd have there's fight nights that I've had

that I can't remember anything I've turned up to arenas had a 12 round fight come home and not even known I've had a fight I've been I've lost weeks

at a time in my mind because I've been dieting so hard my body's just gone into complete overdrive I've drove home from She hard, my body's just gone into complete overdrive. I've drove home from Sheffield multiple occasions

and not remembered a single thing of how I've got home and drove. I've been on autopilot. And that's training camp, that's life. So she starts to understand how dangerous and real it was as time went on. So once I've won the world title, she's like, you need to stop now, it's time to just be a dad. And I'm like, no, it's not. I've got the world title she's like you need to stop now it's time to just be a dad and I'm like

no it's not you know I've got to financially secure this so then I made the the audacious thing to target a man with a pound sign on his head and the man who had

that pound sign on his head was David Hay the way I looked at David I knew David way back from Spartan many years ago when he paid me if you've ever seen

the program Red Dwarf remember H well David had a pound sign on his head like seen the program Red Dwarf remember H well David had a pound sign on his head like H had in Red Dwarf to me but no one else could see it

it was just me added to the fact I knew I could beat him I always knew why because I sparred with him 10-15 years previously after I won that

first ABA title I'm talking to you about David hired me as a sparring partner for one day and I'd never ever been it's still to this day

it's the hardest I've ever been hit he hit me so hard with 16 ounce gloves on the head guard it made me back leg kick out like a donkey out of nowhere

and it always stuck with me but I took it I didn't go down I should have went down I still don't know to this day how I didn't but I took it said to him good shot

and I always remember the look on his face of how the fuck are you still standing and that look and then me being able to go at him

and put it on him stuck with me forever and then me dropping him later on in the sparring session let me know even though he said he should have given me a thousand pound David

you'll always owe me that thousand pound if you drop David you got a thousand pound in cash off Adam Booth as coach at the time I didn't get it because he said it was his leg.

He had a hamstring problem. That's why he went down. Absolute bollocks. I put him down on one knee. He still owes me a grand. But yeah, I knew, I actually knew

after that sparring session, I'm going to fight this man later in my career. I told David Price on the day, me and David Price sparred on that day. He was, he was getting ready to fight Mark Hobson. And I said to David Price after that sparring and David Price sparred on that day he was getting ready

to fight Mark Hobson and I said to David Price after that spar session I'm going to fight him one day David Price spun him as well didn't he yeah

and David said David said what are you on about Price he said to me I said I'm telling you one day I'm going to fight that man and I chased him

my whole career I knew one day I'd get to him one day our paths would cross I just don't ask me why I know that I don't know how I know career. I knew one day I'd get to him. One day our paths would cross. I just, don't ask me why I know that. I don't know how I know it.

I just knew one day I'd fight him. That conversation at the kitchen table with Rachel, are you telling her at that point, after you've won that title, that David Hayes next and that it'll make money? No, I didn't tell her he was next. I told her my career is now all about money. It's no longer about my selfish needs

and wanting to become world champion. She knows I can be the most selfish bastard in the world and I've done it numerous times to her in life. I've just fucked off. Listen, when my brother died, I left and I fucked off to training camp. I'm the most selfish bastard you could meet. It's disgusting when I look back at it,

but that's me. So I'm not that anymore. I'm a different person than I was then I change all the time and I'd like to think I'm not changing I'm evolving I'm getting better

I'm learning from my mistakes but back in the day when I was fighting I would just pack up and leave so you know I went through the worst time of my whole entire life

at that stage and I just packed up and fucked off so I can do that when we lost Rachel's brother Ashley that was the worst time of my whole entire life so this stage and I just packed up and fucked off so I can do that when we lost Rachel's brother Ashley that was the worst time me whole entire life so this was after you've beaten David that was after the first time I've beaten but yeah yeah I can just pack up and just get a goal and then that was because you know why because I've got a job to do and when I was fighting it

was a job and it was only until I achieved my goals of becoming world champion and then it was a dream before I was world champion I was chasing a dream and a goal when that goal was achieved I actually thought I'll leave boxing alone or I didn't think I'd give it 100% when I became financially secure

I then realised it wasn't a dream it wasn't the money that I was chasing I need something to drive me in life. I've only realised that since I retired. So, yeah. Do you remember that feeling of looking at your bank account after that first David Haye fight and thinking, I'm a multi-millionaire now?

And how, like, what was the feeling? The idea informed me. So I've been waiting for about eight weeks. May have been longer might have been 12 weeks for the box office money to come through but at this stage I already know in my mind I've now completely

relaxed, I've beat David I've had the crazy results I've now crossed over as well I'm now a public figure as a world champion I yeah, I was known. I'd even done a Rocky movie, for fuck's sake, before this. So I crossed over to a different kind of set-up group of people. I crossed over to your average person,

so your grandmothers knew me at this stage. Things like that. That's when you start, fame really kicks in. But after beating David, it's now gone to another level because david's a crossover star david's a great looking kid he's fucking david hay he takes his top off he looks a million dollars he's david and he's just he's the king of the world when i beat him it goes absolutely insane and i'm living now in a different world but i ain't got the money to be living the way I'd like to live right now I've got enough in me accounts the business is going well at this stage in time now after beating

David I've got enough to start buying properties and building up our property portfolio for the family and the kids something I'd always planned on doing but when Eddie phones me three months later and he goes tomorrow I'm just giving you the call the box office money's landed he said and tomorrow you're gonna look in your bank and you're a multi-millionaire congratulations if anyone deserves it it's you the me and Eddie have a backstory and it's mad to think that I was I could have walked away from Eddie I didn't have no I've never had a contract with Eddie in I'm probably one of I I'm probably the highest profile fighter he's had who's made him the most money

who he's never had to sign a contract with, ever. And we dealt on a handshake. Bear in mind, I was a world champion with no deal in place. I was top property. After Goodison Park victory, the way I'd done it and the way I executed it, it was perfect.

I then defend my world title and I smash some guy called BJ Flores like no one's ever done him before. I get rid of him and then I get a phone call offering me 1.6 million pounds to fight David Haye on BT Box Office. And I say, no. And Eddie tells me on the phone and says,

I can't offer you that money, you've got to take it. And I said, I'm not going to take it. I said, we shook hands and we're going to see this through. He says to me, I can't give you that money. I ain't got that kind of money to give you right now. I said, I know he wants to fight me now. He's going to deal with you, because David didn't want to deal with Eddie.

He didn't like Eddie. And yeah, so loyalty means just as much to me as well. But getting to that stage in my life was very very difficult I can't explain to you how hard it was and believing in yourself backing yourself when that phone call came in and at this stage I've got a few hundred grand I've got a right few hundred grand it's cleared I've paid me taxes I've done stuff like that but at the time it's in a company so I'm not really it's all good you can be a multi-millionaire but it's stuck, I've paid my taxes, I've done stuff like that but at the time it's in a company so I'm not really, it's all good you can be a multi-millionaire

but it's stuck in a company you ain't a millionaire until you've got that money personally and the taxes paid and it's in your bank which is very very hard to do, that's when you're a multi-millionaire so I had to wait a long time to get to that stage but

thankfully enough I did, I did. I carried on believing in myself. And I showed that I can be loyal even when tested at the most difficult of times. Because you can imagine when I've got that phone call that night and this man's offered me £1.6 million and says to me, I know you don't trust where this money's coming from, but I can have it at your front door tomorrow.

This man says to me, I can have it at your front door tomorrow that's what this man says to me I can have it at your front door and believe you me this man could I have 1.6 million pound in a suitcase at my front door the next day and and I say no to it and at this time I've got a wife who's listening to this phone call with me and she's saying you better have a fucking good plan or you're going out this door because Because at this stage now, I've got three kids and I've just knocked back £1.6 million and I'm basically worth £480,000. And that's in a company, by the way, as well. And they should have me £1.6 million. It just quadruples my net worth.

So, and I knock it back. I sit there still can't believe. I had the audacity to do it but I mean that handshake means something

so we do we agree a deal when the money comes in the bank I'm not gonna lie it was what's it called when something

is anti-climax yeah I seen it and I had to actually go to a cash machine to see it I had I had online access and I could have done it that way but I did. I seen it and I had to actually go to a cash machine and see it.

I had, I had online access and I could have done it that way, but I didn't. I wanted to go into cash and put the digits in and look at the numbers.

So yeah, I wanted to see the actual, the zeros on the thing and see what it looked like and it was over. That's weird, I'm looking for it. It just didn't,

no. That's when I realised it wasn't about money. I just thought, this isn't, this is not all it's made out to be. I didn't, nothing's changed me as a person. Nothing's changed in my life.

I've still got three hungry kids. I've still got a wife I adore. Yeah. Nothing really changes. You know how it feels. Yeah, I know. I i remember this i had the same anti-climax feeling i've talked about in this podcast a million times of if this wasn't it steve this is what we thought we were aiming for and if this isn't it then what the fuck is it and

why was i doing all this stuff for you know why was i working hard and being obsessed it makes me question why do i keep doing what why do i want to keep earning i Why do I want to keep earning? I think now I want to keep earning for the sake of, I'm trying to pass it on. I tell myself that as well, but I think the insecure kid never dies in you. I think the kid, I know he's still in me now. I say to myself now, well, I just need to get to nine figures in my bank account.

And I go, why? Like, who do I need to show off to? I don't need to show, but it's still in me. And then I have, I'd never really talk about this, but I have these little moments where I start looking at Lamborghinis again, just out of the blue, like four times a year. And then sometimes it overflows

and I'll send it to like my manager. They'll go, what do you think if I bought this Rolls Royce? Or I send it to my girlfriend. I go, hi babe, what do you think? She'll go, what are you fucking? I'm sorry. It'll be like I woke up up again like the kid took over the control room for a bit I've someone sent me a book and I've I've actually downloaded I've got it on the audiobook and I haven't done it is it the chimp paradox he sat here Steve Pieces the author I haven't read this and I haven't read it but people have said to me you should really read it yeah you should and what you're saying to me kind of it's the inner

chimp is it yeah we all have an inner chimp the chimp brain which is the kind of irrational impulsive ego it's where your anger and all of those things okay yeah so i don't know i've just been taught i've got it on the audible because i don't really read the books no more actually looking at them i just listen to them it's changed a lot of people's lives i absorb it better has it yeah i only listen to audiobooks as well in what other than i actually downloaded your audiobook for 9.99 and then i was going between both of them so i was going like i'd read this and i'd read like chapter two and then i'd understand it okay yeah yeah yeah because i always think the whole thing yeah i try and i try and slow down if i'm talking to another scout it's out of control no it's always better

when the author narrates it as well. But you should read that book, Chimp Paradox. If there's one book which honestly helps you understand yourself and you go, I wish someone had fucking told me this 20 years ago about my own brain. It's that. With your relationships, why sometimes you argue with your wife, how to get control of those emotional moments.

It's all about your chimp, like, taking over the brain. And Steve Peters, who's the author of the book, who is, like, this brain scientist who travelled all the way down from somewhere at the top of the country just to sit here and tell me about the chimp thing. Genius. That book, my business partner's an alcoholic and had suicidal ideation

and didn't know what was out of control with him. And he cites reading that book as the thing that made him change his life sober. It's mad the way they've just brought that up yeah because of the way you explain things yeah it's honestly really and i actually was reading the second so the author of the chimp paradox wrote like a second part to it and i was reading it last week in bali because i was having a bit of me and my missus were arguing about something a little bit and so i went to the page about emotional control just to understand why we have these arguments where we just repeat ourselves on cycles yeah and it basically explains in there that the chimp part of your brain which is the

front of your brain it will continue to do that until it feels heard so i put the close the book i went back downstairs to my missus and i went i said to her i said just want to make sure that you you understand i completely heard what you're saying and I repeated back to her what she said she completely just stopped because the minute the chin part of your brain feels like it's understood then it it's completely pacified but until then it will just you know when your missus is like yeah I know that one so it's how to navigate life yourself and those around you and it's all the chimp part of our brain causes us a lot of problems but I've got to read this fucking book

yeah no you for sure I've just done the biggest plug in the world for it that is brilliant one of the moments that you talked earlier about you becoming you kind of crossed over

after that David Haye fight one of the things I will never forget is the raw emotion that came out of you after you won that fight the first one

or the second one the second one I believe yeah that's when Ashley died because of Ashley's passing yes that broke me to the core still does

think about him every single day but yeah that shit's horrible he was like a brother to you and he yeah he's Rachel's brother so he's basically my brother all Rachel's brothers are my brothers

my brothers are her brothers I've known Rachel since she was nine years old so Ashley's 18 months younger than her Yeah, he's Rachel's brother. So he's basically my brother. All Rachel's brothers are my brothers. My brothers are her brothers. I've known Rachel since she was nine years old. So Ashley's 18 months younger than her. So I've known Ashley since bloody hell. That makes him seven the first time I met him. Yeah, that was not nice, mate. And listen, don't get me wrong.

It affects her sisters and her brothers and her mother and her father far more than it could possibly affect me. The part that affects me the most I've tried my best to come to terms with losing Ash the part that gets me the most is how I see her hate my wife it just kills her

to the core like you've got to understand that them two growing up basically a month apart they grow up basically like twins so she adores him he adores her they fight they argue constantly as siblings.

And then one day he's here, the next day he's just gone. And he'd gone on holiday. Yeah, he'd gone to be his best friend's best man. He basically went to a wedding abroad in the most unruly country in the world, Mexico. He just doesn't come home. So yeah, petrifying, mate. I still remember the day getting the phone call and shit like that, yeah.

Horrible, horrible time. But there's not much I can say that hasn't already been said. It's just the worst time of my life. It's something that I'll never truly understand. Never. That life could be so unfair? Yeah. There's just a kid who's innocent, a lovely, lovely lad.

Do you know what? If I could swap places and what had happened to him had happened to me, I could half say, well, he's seen his lifelong dream go through. He's lived his life and he's done some bad shit too, so I can kind of accept it if it was meself. I just can't accept such a kid like that, who's just such a nice fucking hell, just loved life, was happy, was always smiling,

always telling jokes, the life of the party. Yeah, it's completely unfair. That's why I have the colour red and the A angel. People think I'm some kind of baseball fan. I couldn't give a shit about baseball. But as people will know, the red A on my arm is for Ashley and it's in red because he was a Madeline Pearl fan and followed them everywhere.

So people would think I absolutely hate red, but I don't now. I actually wear it with a bit of pride. So, yeah, just so many things. Like the kid looked up to me as well. So, yeah, hard, hard time. Losing him was the hardest thing that's ever happened in my life. Bear in mind, I've lost two grandparents.

Seen people dying. Lots of crazy crazy scenario situations. Yeah. But nothing's ever affected me like that. That was worse than Jimmy. That was just fucking, just here one minute and gone the next. Yeah, gone. So what can you do?

You said that nearly impacted your relationship with Rachel as well. Yeah, definitely. In a big way. Definitely, without a shadow of a doubt. I mean, I'd hope it'd bring us closer, but I just don't think my wife will ever get over it. Well, I know she won't. I know she won't.

It's a little brother. And especially when you haven't been given the answers that we should have been given. And there is answers out there. There's people that could give us the answers, but they won't. So, yeah. Yeah.

Very, very hard. I'd say my heart breaks for my wife and her sisters, and her sister and her brother, and her mother and father especially. A child, a parent should never bury a child in any way, shape or form. That is the most harrowing, frightening thing you could possibly imagine,

losing one of your children. How they got through it and how they get through it, I'll never know. So, yeah. Very hard. I always think of the selfish things I've done once again.

I've just fucking off to camp after he died just because I had to honour that rematch. I gave him my word I'd fight him again and I shouldn't have. It's a regret, but I found a way to get through it. I navigated through and got the job done.

You regret giving him your word that you'd fight him? No, I kept going through with it. I should never have done it. It's selfish when I look back. But that's me. I gave me word and when you give someone your word you've got to honour it

When you say you're fucking off the camp is that like a form of escapism where you like the fucking off the camp becomes this distraction where you don't have to face the pain Yeah, the pain and the truth and bear in mind

I'm definitely facing the pain because I just cry myself to sleep every night that I'm in Sheffield every night I cry myself to sleep every night that I'm in Sheffield every night I cry myself to sleep but I know my wife's at home crying herself to sleep as well, my kids are with her oh yeah, I do that for three months

so I go to camp for 12 weeks at a time 14 weeks for that one because I know I had to lose X amount of weight yeah and you're alone in a hotel room crying yeah, Holiday Inn alone in a hotel room crying yeah Holiday Inn Express in Sheffield me

the microwave and my iPad and me just sobbing yeah I used to go to pitches once a week as well on my own and just sit there

sometimes I've cried in that pitch on my own and I've just had a cap on my hood over and just cried watching films because I just it's more because I can deal with losing Ashley I can't deal with I've just had a cap on and my hood over and just cried watching films. Because I just...

It's my... Because I can deal with losing Ashley. I can't deal with seeing my wife in pain. That I can't change. That's the worst part. She's still in pain. And she'll... Like, she wouldn't speak to anyone about it.

She'll just bottle it up. I thought one day she could come to terms with it, but she can't. I know she can't. It's the worst feeling in the world, man. It's helpless. So, yeah, it's tough. In one of your interviews,

when you were talking about this, you referenced that phase of your life, I think, as being you feeling like you were depressed. Is that accurate? You felt depressed through that? That's what depression feels. I don't want to tap on that kind of word because I feel people use it these that kind of word because I feel people

use it these days to their benefit I feel people abuse it I feel like it's used today as a fucking traction part to gain traction or to people actually earn

money from saying they're depressed but if that's what depression was yeah crying yourself to sleep and not being able to solve a problem for the life of you you don't know how to solve it.

And, like, nothing made me happy. Nothing. Like, nothing. The only time I was ever happy is when I seen her smile, when I seen her smile, and that was very briefly in that period of time. Like, even now to this day, I can look at her and know she's thinking about her brother.

Even now, we've been past be five years in August yeah four or five years in August and I know she's thinking about him

but I just know but I can't change that and that's the saddest part because as a husband I should be able to do something about that

but I can't you know that's the one thing if you're I'm a husband I'm a partner I should be able to do something about that but I can't you know that's the one thing if you're I'm a husband I'm a partner I should be able to be there for it I'm be the comfort blanket but I can't I can't change it so yeah that's hard it's tough you said you'd never spoken to anyone about it but have you spoken to anybody about it no I went on SAS and that's where I found out I was fucked up so going on that show highlight, I've never seen it back,

so I don't know what I've done, what I've said, some of the things, conversations we had. I don't know, but at that point I knew I had a problem because I went on that show thinking I've completed life. I've seen through my lifelong dream. I've done this and I've done that. I've got what I set out to get. I'm financially secure.

My career's over. I'm retired. I'm supposed to just enjoy getting fat now and enjoy playing golf. And it was on that show that I realised that I'm not. I'm carrying the burden of what's gone on. And I'm just constantly wanting to make my wife happy. I'm trying to make sense of how

I can fix my wife's situation that's what I found out on that show because I was just broken down gradually and to be fair to what Middleton it was his process that made me realise that, it also made me realise what's important in life

nothing is as important as what's in the four walls of my house. Nothing matters. Nothing genuinely matters. I've got some great friends and I love them like brothers, I really do. But I'm sorry to say it doesn't matter. What matters is me missus and me kids. That no one in this world actually needs me

or depends on me to the amount that they need me. I put them kids on this planet. I've got to look after them i've got to give them the best i possibly can she's my wife i've got to be the best i can possibly be for there nothing else really matters not much and being on that show made me realize that my phone is just a fucking distraction i don't need to spend all day on my phone i spend too much time on it as it is, but I'm trying to implement things now.

When I go home, that phone doesn't need to be there. I'm trying my best just not to leave the phone alone in the house. It's very hard to do, by the way. I'm sure you'll know that as well. But I'm trying to implement things differently in my life, and that show helped me see that. Definitely did. At the start of this conversation,

you said when you're talking about your brother, that to survive, you'd put this kind of protective wall around yourself. Yeah. And often when I sit here with, Patrice Ever is a good example. He grew up on the streets of France and he put this protective wall around himself.

His brother's a drug dealer and they're overdosing, died in the house, et cetera. So he puts this shield around himself to try and survive and then it's not until his later years at like 30 40 years old after he's retired in his afterlife as you call it in chapter 12 11 of your book um that he realized that protective shield is actually it's protected him from his early years but now it's costing him as an adult it's meaning that he's not able to properly connect on an emotional level he's running from his pain he's defensive he's got a lot of anger and so he goes

on the journey thanks to his partner when she turns to him one day and goes you're not okay and he goes he gets angry what do you mean i'm not okay and she says it again she goes you're not okay what's wrong and then in that moment at 40 years old he just lets it down and he says everything from my head teacher abused me sexually abused me at school all of these things that happened in his childhood but I was wondering when you said that at the start of the conversation

that shield you put up to help you to survive after you finish boxing I'm guessing it's not serving you no I don't well it makes sense because he's having

I always saying I'm happy and stuff like that he's actually fucking not I get it I understand the side and I understand but then

I feel like I've I've given enough there's certain parts I'll never give up I just won't because I wouldn't I can give so much

I can't give everything so I'll hold and that could be pain that could be torment that could be shit that's gone on in my earlier life I don't, I can give so much, I can't give everything. So I'll hold, and that could be pain, that could be torment, that could be shit that's gone on in my earlier life. I don't know, but I won't give everything. You say that on the show. You actually say you'd never write a book.

Yeah, I did, yeah. You said, I'll never see a psychologist and I'll never write a book because I don't want to go back there. Yeah, it's not that. And I don't want to paint it out to be any worse than any other kids because it's not. Get me wrong, there's obviously some shit there,

but yeah, I just, what's the point? I can't change the past. So you won't speak about it? Yeah, there's nothing to really speak about. I just, it's just what it is. It's been and gone. I can't change it. So there's no point in discussing it.

Like, I went to new york on the weekend and uh just as i got to the airport i ate a shitload of shit just get to the airport i'm always early i'm never late for anything i arrived at the airport get there they said i need to test so i said okay well no one told me i need to test so okay let's where do i do what do i do goes down to the first floor they've now I'm now half an hour away and I'm not checked in yet from my flight and I'm at the front

of the queue sitting there waiting for the thing goes downstairs gets the test done okay now we've hit another problem there's a different name

on your ticket than there is on your passport I said okay well sound I'm not in control of any of this young man comes over to me from Virgin and he says right

you've got to be at your plane in 10 minutes and the gate's 15 minutes away I said young man comes over to me from virgin and he says right you've got you've got to be you're playing in 10 minutes and the gate's 15 minutes away i said okay sound he says to me can i just say something he said we get through this checkout bit and we used to put all your shit in the bag and stuff he said i've never seen anyone so calm you're gonna miss a flight i said you want me to tell you something kid i said why am i going to get stressed out about things i can't change i have no impact i can't do anything to change you if i start shouting and screaming and blaming the people who are involved in this it's not going to change the situation so why would i get worked up about it and he said wow that was amazing i've never seen anyone say that wish you could tell everyone who comes on virgin airlines that problem and i was like it's just a part of my life that i'm in now so i don't see the point in going backwards and talking

about old stuff when i can only change what's in front of me and i can only change what's on my path by going back i'm only just gonna lift the can of more pain and hate or shit that i've done that's wrong and i and to be fair i think about enough of the wrong things I've done or enough of the bad things that have happened to me anyway. So I don't see what talking about them would solve if I can just keep moving on and keep moving forward. I'll remain in a happy place. I'll try to remain in a happy place as much as I can. But life's difficult, you know.

People look at you and think you're a success story. They look at the money you've got. They story. They look at the money you've got, they look at the scenario and the setup you've got, but ultimately, are you happy? And that's all that matters. I don't care if you've got a pound in your bank or you've got a hundred million in your bank, are you happy?

And that's all that matters. So all that I'm trying to say to her every day is that feeling of happy. Yes, I understand there is a need for money i would be a fool if i said i don't work for money of course i do i've got to get what i'm worth but at the same time i'm a happy are you happy yes with the life i've created yes do i feel it's complete no do i have unhappy days, yes. Am I happy every single morning when I wake up? No, not at all.

I don't believe anybody is. And if you are, show me your fucking recipe, please, because I'll drink it up. But no, I'm not forever happy. But if I look at my life and what I've generated and what I've created, yes, I'm happy. I'm happy with that. But I'm still striving. i'm still pushing towards goals

whether that be work goals whether that be i always want to be better that's the problem with me you said it's not complete no what would be required to complete it i don't know that's that's the frightening part so I can keep chasing money I can keep chasing deals I can keep putting things in place I can keep looking at that Rolls Royce that I could probably buy but I can't justify it

because as I said before I look at it as the kids money and I ain't spending their money on keeping a Rolls Royce so that just ain't in the plan I don't spending their money on keeping a Rolls Royce, so that just ain't in the plan. I don't know. I don't know what's going to make me happy.

Try and just keep getting better at whatever I'm doing. Try and keep a working relationship and a lifestyle relationship, both of them work in tandem, so I can remain happy, but keep also enough time to spend with my kids and family because ultimately I've got to work and need something to focus on. I was retired for two years and basically not heard of

or no one's seen me for 12 months. I just enjoy getting fat. And yeah, just being one of the lads with my mates and then I soon realised, shit, I need something to focus on. Why? Because life just I can't just be at home be a dad

and be a husband and just sit there and get fat I mean what kind of example am I setting to my kids? is there a part of it that your life was so full of adrenaline

and that's super addictive that buzz and then I mean fighters talk about this a lot and Fury's talked about this a lot and then that struggle of just going back to I mean you've said it you're not very good at then that struggle of just going back to, I mean, you've said it,

you're not very good at normal life. No, I'm not good at that. I can definitely, yeah, I'm not good at just being a, I couldn't be a nine to five dad. Like that in itself is a fucking great strength. That is an enormous amount of strength that you give them a pat on the back.

Everyone out there doing nine to five, I've done it, I've tried it. I've worked in Next. I've worked in a pillow factory. I've worked as a lifeguard. I've worked nightclub security, daytime security. I've worked as a labourer.

I've done some mad stuff. I've done every possible thing you can imagine. I understand it. I've sat in an office. I worked as a trainee accountant. so I had my best with that. It's hard. Nine to five jobs are hard. Anything worth doing is hard.

To be the best at something is very hard. This thing that you think you're kind of looking for to complete you, as you said, does it scare you that it might not even exist? It doesn't exist, and that's the frightening part. I know it doesn't exist, but I also understand and know that no one can feel absolutely complete because otherwise we wouldn't be doing the things we're doing.

The complete person doesn't exist. That's bullshit. It's a fairy tale. So you show me a complete, if you can show me a fully complete happy person, I'll show you a unicorn. It just doesn't exist, but I'm still chasing it.

Well, I'd like to think so. Quick one. We bring in eight people a month to watch these conversations live here in the studio when we're here in the UK and when we're in LA if you want to be one of those people all you've got to do is hit subscribe Tony we have a closing tradition on this podcast where the last guest writes a question for the next guest wow yeah and I don't read it until I open this book so if money were no issue and completely unlimited,

what would that enable for you? And then they've done a second part to the question. How would you put it to use to further your vision? So if money were no issue. Money was no issue. I'm already trying to create things for my kids that I pass on. So I've always thought about when I die so leaving making sure they're safe

would you give them all the money though? that's a fucking big question would I give them all the money? yeah your kids if I was a billionaire yeah no not all of it

are you not a bit scared because you come from the place you come from is not the place they come from. It's very different to theirs. Yes, I understand that. Even though my eldest son wants it to be the same, which it can never be, he would never understand. He likes to think he can because he was born, where he was born and where he served the first few years of his life.

He's seen us have difficult times. He remembers sharing a bedroom with his brothers. He remembers, I can't his brothers. He remembers, I can't even say that, no, he's always had the best. My kid's always had the best, even when I didn't have it,

he had it. So, yeah. If that, if that was entailed, if money was no object. If I sent you a billion right now, not that I have it, but if I did,

I sent you a billion, what changes? I have a billion. Does it scare you a little bit, the thought of getting a billion? now not that i have it but if i did i sent you a billion what changes i have a billion does it scare you a little bit the thought of getting a billion no no money doesn't money doesn't mean much to me anymore it's it's like fame fame is just an expectation fame is just an intrusion of privacy that's all as it is it It doesn't mean anything. I tell people all the time, social media is the biggest problem we're dealing with because it's showing everyone the destination and no one the journey.

No one sees where you came from. No one sees the... Everyone just sees this point up here and this point down here. No one sees that uphill struggle, the fight to get where you need to get, the hours of determination, of work, of graft, of all the stuff you put in. No one sees that uphill struggle, the fight to get where you need to get, the hours of determination, of work, of graft, of all the stuff you put in.

No one sees that journey. And if I could have that money and show that, it would be more in showing people the journey. That's what I would use that money for. Show people the journey. Show everyone that they're capable of everything I've done. I tell this to people all the time. I am no one special.

Guy just stopped me outside, he gave me, he shook hands with me, he said, can I show you something? Right outside, and I just pulled up outside the air. He said,

of course you can man, I said, fire away, I said, stop believing I'm someone special. He says to me, no look at this, he just showed me a picture on his social media,

I have no idea what the guy's name was, but he says, look at that, he said, there's hope for all fat kids, and it was a picture of me, after I'd just hope for all fat kids and it was a picture of me after I'd just beat up David Hay

and it was a picture on his Instagram that was posted months ago but he showed me and said thank you so much for your support

I appreciate that now if that can't show you I can be achieved and nothing can because that's all I am a fat kid from Liverpool who never gave in

who never gave up and always believed in himself if I can do it so can everyone else watching this. Thank you, Tony. Really. Absolute pleasure. Honestly, really remarkably inspiring.

And the thing that I think the mark you left on me as I watched your journey play out is that it's possible to be a really good, honest, legit person who is exactly who you think they are when you see him on screen who's willing to pour their heart out who doesn't need to engage in these like shit talking games that like david hay was doing who can be so real and connect with so many people because of their like just their realness and their honesty while also being this this unbelievable champion that

was considered an underdog for so many years and that did it all so thank you so much it was a pleasure reading this as well because thank you your book is as real as you are um and it's it's as you say from the guy outside it's an inspiration to so many young men that need that so thank you very much just try and be authentic and be yourself it's all we can really be i mean there's no point in pretending to be anyone else or trying to be something that you're not because ultimately in the end, your colours will come shining through

and you will see who you are. So thank you very, very much. It's been an absolute episode and a half coming here and seeing your environment and finding out about you as well. You've done amazing to come from the background you've come from and to do what you do. You should be very proud of yourself.

Oh, thanks, man. It means a lot coming from you. Thank you. Pleasure. Thanks.