The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett - Trevor Noah: My Depression Was Linked To ADHD! Why I Left The Daily Show!

Episode Date: October 17, 2024

From being 'born a crime' and surviving Apartheid to navigating fame, Trevor Noah opens up about the chaos behind the comedy   Trevor Noah is a comedian and former host of the satirical news programme, ‘The Daily Show’. He is also host of the podcast ‘What Now? with Trevor Noah’ and author of the best-selling book, ‘Born A Crime: Stories from a South African Childhood’.  In this conversation, Trevor and Steven discuss topics such as, how growing up under Apartheid shaped Trevor’s life path, the trauma of his mother’s attempted murder, how Trevor received death threats at ‘The Daily Show’, and why young men are struggling today.  (00:00) Intro (01:47) Trevor's Childhood (04:51) What Do People Need To Know To Understand Trevor (07:08) What Was Apartheid Like For Trevor? (11:01) I Was Born Illegal (16:06) Trevor's Mother's Troubled Relationship With New Partner (23:22) Trevor's Mum's Shooting (26:05) Being Hyper-Empathetic (30:54) What Happened On The Day Of The Shooting (34:16) The Miracle That Saved My Mother (36:12) Why Didn't Your Stepdad Go To Prison? (38:29) Is Trevor Still Angry? (42:31) Have You Forgiven Him? (43:17) How Does Past Trauma Affect Trevor Today? (45:13) Men's Mental Health & Loneliness Epidemic (50:37) Why Are Men Struggling (59:10) How Can We Men Be Helped? (01:03:02) Belonging (01:08:43) How Do You Spot A Bad Friend? (01:11:51) Trevor's Work Ethic (01:15:32) Does Money And Fame Guide Your Decisions? (01:19:50) We're All Human & Need The Same Thing (01:24:39) Death Threats When Starting The Daily Show (01:29:11) The Worst Day On The Daily Show (01:34:53) Trevor's Struggle With Depression (01:40:46) Why Did Trevor Leave The Daily Show (01:46:49) You Don't Know What You've Got Until It's Gone (01:50:49) Trevor's Therapy Journey (01:59:28) Trevor's ADHD Diagnosis (02:02:31) The Link Between ADHD And Depression (02:09:16) Did You Ever Feel Hopeless? (02:13:44) Trevor Reuniting With His Father (02:15:53) What Lesson Did You Learn From Your Father? (02:18:32) Your Mum (02:18:39) What Would Trevor Say In His Last Phone Call To His Mother (02:21:50) Trevor's Thoughts On Fatherhood (02:23:31) Trevor's Romantic Relationships (02:26:14) The Lowest Point Of Your Life (02:30:12) Would Trevor Erase What Happened To His Mother? Let me know if you need any further adjustments! Follow Trevor:  Instagram - https://g2ul0.app.link/h7Y99Ai0GNb  Twitter - https://g2ul0.app.link/OGcQnqk0GNb  Spotify: You can purchase Trevor’s book, ‘Into the Uncut Grass’, here: https://g2ul0.app.link/9KoTivu0GNb  Watch the episodes on Youtube - https://g2ul0.app.link/DOACEpisodes  My new book! 'The 33 Laws Of Business & Life' is out now - https://g2ul0.app.link/DOACBook  You can purchase the The Diary Of A CEO Conversation Cards: Second Edition, here: https://g2ul0.app.link/f31dsUttKKb  Follow me: https://g2ul0.app.link/gnGqL4IsKKb Sponsors: Linkedin Ads - https://www.linkedin.com/doac24 Colgate - https://www.colgate.com/en-gb/colgate-total

It felt like life was meaningless. I would think to myself, I hate this, this sucks. I don't know what I wanna do with life anymore. And that's sometimes where the depression would kick in. But I didn't realize that the depression that I was suffering from was untreated ADHD depression. And so I've learned rules now for myself and for anyone out there.

If you are suffering from this, ask yourself a few simple questions. Mr. Trevor Noah, the former host of The Daily Show. He gained a massive following for his humorous, yet incisive take on politics and society. I was born to a black mother and a white father in South Africa at a time when it was illegal in the country. They were scared the police were going to take me away.

And then my mother met my stepfather. And it became an unsafe household. Your mother had been shot point blank in the head by this man. Yeah. And from that day onwards, everything changes. You arrive in America to pursue your dream as being this comedian. You are very hardworking, to say the least. Which led to you being the host of The Daily Show.

But it didn't go so well at first. It was absolutely terrible. People would just be like, go back to where you came from, death threats. It was really hard, but I persevered. Then I would get home at 9 p.m., work until midnight, get back to the office at 7 the next day, and do it all over again.

And then the Daily Show went on to become a smash hit, but at the cost of it. I had made my life about work, and I had made everything else secondary. And to be honest with you, a lot of people are doing this. We've neglected connection, and I think we're experiencing a generation of men in particular who are not just isolated but not practiced in the arts of connecting and

It's affecting society now. So those men that are struggling where do they need to start? This is a lesson that I've learned if you're struggling with this so you Trevor, what are the most important things that I need to understand about your earliest years to understand the man that sits in front of me today? Well, that's a tough one because I feel like my perception of what the most important things are may not be the most important things. I could say it would be my sense of humor and then it might be where the sense of humor comes from, which might be my family or my country. It might be which schools I went to.

It might be where I've lived or where I've traveled to. It's one of those, if you ever try to break down a food or something that you consume and you go like, what is the most important ingredient? What are the ingredients that really make it what it is? And it's like, is it the crunch? Is it the acids? Is it the salts? Is it the fats?

What is it? I don't know. I genuinely don't know. If I knew, then I would be able to either create more of me or maybe figure out which parts I want to tweak. But I honestly don't know the answer to that question. I often think of everyone that I meet, but also myself through the context of like,

I guess a similar analogy, like a set of ingredients that came together that were then put into an oven and like, the heat was turned on and we were baked. Not to say that we can't be changed after that moment, but what are those ingredients? So my mother, South African, Hossa woman, my father Swiss from Switzerland but was living in South Africa. So those are the parental ingredients. My grandmother I think is a key

ingredient because I spent a lot of time with her as a young child. My grandfather was a crazy, funny man, was bipolar but we didn't know at the time. I think we knew towards the end of his life, but it made him wildly entertaining. Yeah, it's an interesting and tough one. Because I often think as much as we're baked to what you're saying, I think that we're baked, but then we are very much a product of the people that we then come into contact with. I think of most people sort of like a sponge cake. Most cakes are very basic, most of them.

Then what really makes them special is what the baker does to them afterwards. But the fundamental cake is pretty much the same. And I think people are like that. Yeah, there's certain things, like the color of our skin and tone of voice and all of that. But then I think it's everyone we come into contact with that gives us the icing, that gives us the shape, that gives us the dynamic texture that makes us who we are. And so strangely enough, I feel like it's all of these people that I was lucky enough or unlucky enough to bump into that gave me a little bit of that texture and shape.

And I think that's the same for everyone. That's probably why I'm so conscious of choosing my friends. Because I think that's me actively choosing the people who are going to keep shaping me as I live my life. I've seen you on TV. I've seen you all over the place over the last 10 years of my life, but I had no idea of your early context. I had no idea.

And it's funny because sometimes you kind of see, I don't know, Domino 35 in all these Dominoes that fall. But those early Dominoes, I think, often lead a lot of clues as to the Domino 35 that we see on the screen. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Definitely, definitely. So for someone that might not know your alias context, like I didn't, what should they know to understand you? So I mean, you know, first of all, I was born and raised in South Africa. I was born in 1984, so that was six years before apartheid ended.

Born to a black mother and a white father at a time when it was illegal in the country. And it was strangely unique, I guess because it was illegal. So I grew up in a world where I didn't see many people like me who had my background. I saw some people who looked similar to me, but they had a completely different background. South Africa's racial dynamics are very complicated and sometimes throw people off, especially internationally. But yeah, I think that's the beginning of me. And then I think, you know, I look at these ingredients which aren't necessarily the best

in choosing your starting point. But then there was a series of lucky breaks, you know, the dominoes as you say. There was a series of lucky breaks. So know, the dominoes, as you say. There was a series of lucky breaks. So one of those was apartheid ends. You know, so apartheid ends when I'm six years old. And I always think to myself about how much that changes my entire life. Because if apartheid, let's say apartheid went for ten more years, then now I'm 16 and I haven't been able to go to the schools that I went to because

you know only white kids were allowed to go to them and you know children of color, black children in South Africa were restricted from going to the same schools and weren't allowed to live in certain areas and your whole life was defined by the color of your skin. And so that becomes like one of the first dominoes that I didn't have anything to do with that changes my life. People that are growing up today aren't aware of what the apartheid is. No, no, no. I've had to research as an adult to make sure I know what it is. I was born in 92. So for

anyone that doesn't know what it's like to be a child that has a white father and a black mother growing up in apartheid South Africa, where as it says on the front of your book, you're considered a crime. Because your father and mother have different skin colors. What does that environment feel like emotionally for you? So I was lucky. I was lucky in that I think at least on the surface I didn't feel it. You know, because one of the most important things I've learned from my upbringing is a child's reality for the most part is defined and created by their parents or their caregivers. You know, so I didn't know that my world was strange. I didn't know that my mother wasn't legally allowed to have me.

To understand the apartheid system, I was trying to break it down for people. People think of racism and they go like, oh, okay, it's racism. And I'm like, no, it's a much more insidious system that was designed to oppress people based on the color of their skin. So where America just said this black and white, and if you had like one drop of blood that was black, you were black and it was a very simplistic system, the apartheid system was a combination of all of the worst ideas from around the world in an around race. You know, so the architects of apartheid explored what the Australians did with the Aboriginal people.

They explored what the Dutch did, that's where the word apartheid comes from. They looked at what the Germans did, you know, during the rule of the Nazis in Germany, like Nazi Germany. They looked at every type of racism, including in the US. It's crazy how much effort they put into doing such a terrible thing. I often joke with my friends and I go, if they put that amount of effort into making a great country, South Africa probably would have been like one of the most powerful countries in the world by now.

Because there was a lot of efforts. And it's a genius system, but just in the world by now. Because there was a lot of efforts and it's a genius system but just in the wrong direction. So what that meant for me was I could be born by my mother, I could be the seed of my father, but I couldn't live with him. We couldn't live with him. We couldn't live together. He couldn't live in our areas. Technically speaking, my mother, my father, and myself weren't allowed to live

in the same area. That's how granular the system was. So I was considered superior to my mother, and then my father was considered superior to me. And so when I was really young, for instance, I'm still an indoor kid. And I think a lot of that is because when I was young, when I was with my grandmother, for for instance and my mom was working, my grandma would lock me in the house. I couldn't go outside and play with the other kids. I would escape now and again. She would tell me stories about how I would like dig a hole under the gate to go and play with other kids in the street. But she was terrified. And I thought it was just because she was strict and she loved me, but it was because she was scared

the police were going to take me away if they found me running around in Soweto, which was a township where only black people were supposed to be. And so in the apartheid system, this skin color wasn't considered black. Your culture didn't matter. All that mattered was your shade. And that was instrumental in keeping people, keeping a majority as broken up as possible to ensure that they were oppressing many minorities as opposed to one majority of people.

So it's really complicated. I mean, you know, you've read up on it, but it's, it's a, it's an infinitely complex system around a ridiculous idea. So you weren't allowed to be seen in public with your mother? No, no, no, no, not at all. And you weren't allowed to be seen in public with your mother? No, no, no. No, not at all. And you weren't allowed to be seen in public with your father? No, no. My mom, so when I'd go out in public with my mom, she would, she would, I don't even

know where she came up with this, but she would act like she was supposed to be with me but not related to me. So she would dress up as, everyone has different words for these in different countries, but like nanny maid, domestic worker, and she would just act like she's my caretaker. So it would look like my parents, I guess, have hired her to look after me. And so that's how she'd move seamlessly with me in the streets because nobody would suspect it. Couldn't be with my father at all in public.

That was just out of the question. Secondly, you said you didn't feel this environment. Really, you didn't feel these things to some degree. I sat with a guy called Gabor Mate. I don't know if you're familiar with Gabor. Yeah, of course, yeah. Yeah, and one of the things Gabor talked to me about from his early childhood was this moment when he was younger

where because he was Jewish, his, I believe he was Jewish, his mother had to give him up just for a couple of days, two or three days, because the Nazis were going to come and take her away. So she thought to save him, I'll give him up. It turned out she was okay. So she went back and got him. Now he cites that moment of trauma of losing his mother just for a little while as being really pivotal to his life, but also in the development of his ADHD and a lot of his sort of internalized shame. And when he said that to me, I was quite shocked that even a couple of days away from a parent, a subtle feeling of neglect at such a young age, he cites his sort of putting shame into his soul, but also being responsible for some of his ADHD in the context

that he thinks of ADHD as being this thing where we learn because our environment is so externally stressful, we start to avert our attention to other things sometimes. Now, the reason I say this is because it highlighted to me the chance and the probability that maybe we might not feel it consciously, that maybe subconsciously at a deeper level, these things shape us in a way that's harder to spot. I wouldn't disagree with that. I'm sure his instance was probably harder if he, A, remembers it and then B, is separated from his mother. I'm not an expert in the field, but I think your mom holds a very different place in your life as a child.

I think we're wired that way. And then I was lucky in that I was seeing my dad. Does that make sense? So being in public with a parent is not really something of consequence if there isn't that in the world. And so when I think of like how we shape realities, I had no other reality to compare it to. So it's not like I was seeing other kids thinking, oh wow, I'm left out. There were many other kids. You know, even when I talk about my story, I always say to people, don't think of this

as a unique and special story. It's just that I happen to be in a place where people talk to me about it. But I am but one story of many others. I knew many kids whose dads had been killed by the police or had been arrested by the apartheid police or had left into exile. And so they couldn't be with their dads for other reasons. So in a weird way, I used to think I was like the lucky kid. I knew my dad.

My dad loved me and I would see this man. It was so like the feeling of that, I think at that age maybe wasn't apparent for me. I'm sure I've been more affected by things that happened in my latter years because I was more aware of them. But as a child, I'm just having a good time. I'm spending time with my mom. I'm never not seeing her. And if I'm not with her, I'm with my grandmother, which is, again, normal in many cultures all

over the world. But there was never a moment where I'm separated from this person because of the system. And she was brilliant to figure out how to do that. And so that's why I say I don't disagree with what you're saying, but I think everything affects us and everything can be thought to affect us negatively and positively. And I've yet to meet a human being who's had a perfect existence. So I'm very careful to then sort of like point to everything as the reason for because everything is already the reason for which does that make sense?

Yeah. Your mother and your father, were they in love in your view? Oh yeah, definitely. Definitely. She eventually married someone else? Yeah, she eventually married. She was never married to my dad. They couldn't get married because of the laws. And then I think afterwards, my mom was just like, well, we are where we are. And then I think there was a seminal moment in their lives where she became very religious and my dad was not at all. And my mom was like, well, I'm going down a religious path and so this is my new life.

And he was called Abel? Yeah. That's my stepfather. Your stepfather? Yeah. I read about the relationship your mother had with him and it seemed to be a very complicated and at times violent relationship. Yeah.

Yeah, it really was. Do you understand what that means at that age? You know, it's tough. It's tough to process because I don't even think I fully know what it means at this age. You know, like love, violence, domestic abuse, these are things that I don't think anyone fully comprehends, even when I talk to like therapists about it. It's always like a, it's a theoretical understanding.

It's not a fact. It's like we think that this and this could be because and this could cause and therefore that could be, you know, and we have brilliant minds who think on what this does and how it creates and how it creates. But man, I will never take for granted what it was like for myself and for any other kid who's experienced it growing up in a home where there's domestic violence. It's one of the worst things you experience because you live in a world where your parents are like the president in a weird way. When you're a child, your parents are the most powerful beings you know.

In your head, no one is more powerful than them. And if you ever have the terrible fortune of seeing your parents, most times your mother being in a position where she's being violently harmed. It rocks your fundamental understanding of what the world is. For me, that's something I still deal with in therapy today because I'm always trying to chip away and trying to understand what is still on me and what is calloused that I don't wish to be and then what is too soft or what is...

Like, I'm always trying to understand it because I don't think there's one concrete answer for what the experience does to you. Is there anything still on you? Oh, definitely. I think there always will be. Because I didn't ever see that in my home, but I can only imagine how much that would have exacerbated my early perception of what a relationship and what love means to some degree.

So you see, my curiosity, my question to you then is like when you go you didn't experience it, I go but what did you experience? And this is the weird thing about the mind, right? Is I find whenever I speak to, I mean like brilliant thinkers and you know the therapists and you know psychologists and all these people what I find fascinating is is how sometimes Your traumas or your perception of your traumas is directly proportional to what you lived in your in your life So in a weird way you might have the exact same experience that I have. It's just that mine Might have been more physical does that make sense?

Interpretation right it's it's I'm always fascinated by that It's just that mine might have been more physical. Does that make sense? The interpretation, right? I'm always fascinated by that. By how I can connect with somebody where in their house it was more about fighting and bickering and people saying things to each other and shouting. I didn't grow up in that kind of house. But then I've met people who did and we seem to be kindred spirits because we've both experienced fundamentally an unsafe household, you know, the feeling of an unsafe household. And I think that's something that many adults are still dealing

with or not dealing with. But as a child, I don't think we're sitting there with a little notepad going, well, nothing physical happened here. And that was only words. And this was because of stress. And no, we're just experiencing an unsafe environment. I only really learned about myself in this context through my triggers as an adult. And then kind of matching the cards. There's this game where you match the cards together and go snap. And it was me pursuing a young lady, the young lady turning to me after me trying to get her to date me for three years. And be like, that's been a relationship.

And then the feeling I got matched, the feeling I had when I was like six or seven and I watched my mother screaming in my father's face. I was like, and that happened enough times, me avoiding romantic relationships. Oh, that's fascinating. Rejecting everyone. And the minute of connection, the minute where we were about to form a relationship, because, oh, this is that feeling from my childhood. They're the same thing.

How did you match them? Because the way I would describe the feeling was impending prison time. That's a good time of my life where I've seen like prison time was watching my father sit there passively as he screamed at and thinking, why doesn't this guy leave? Why is he with her? And so that's kind of where I formed the hypothesis. And once I had something to aim at, I could resolve it and I resolved it. Wow. But I don't know.

No, that's interesting. You see, yeah, on my side, it was the other way around. I think when I looked at how I saw relationships and love in that way, it was like I never saw it as like a prison, but in a similar way, I think in a way that sort of informed my avoidance, it was more me realizing I don't have an opportunity or I'll never have an opportunity to hurt you if I don't fully give to you. You know what I mean? So it was a, that's why I say we can be in the same boat, but realize we have different tickets that brought us here.

The outcome is the same, but we sort of end up in the same place. And so in my world, I without a doubt think that seeing a relationship where somebody was hurt because they allowed somebody into their lives affected my ability to allow people into my life because I was like, oh if that happens to me then what happens? Are you a prisoner? Like are you subject? And you grow up in a world where people just don't seem to take it seriously, you know.

This is still a problem in South Africa till this day. I mean this is a problem in many countries around the world. I was in a, where was I recently? I was in Amsterdam recently and I saw they had this huge campaign around femicide and gender-based violence. And it's a problem all over the world where people sort of don't take it seriously. You know, they call it a crime of passion. You know, a woman goes to the police and says, you know, my husband beat me and they go like,

oh, but what did you do? This is between you and your husband. Go home, sort it out, figure the whole thing out. And I think that definitely left me as a child, even though, sort it out, figure the whole thing out. And I think that definitely left me as a child, even though I was a child, looking at the world going like, oh, wow, okay, so the world thinks this is normal, then that means the world won't keep me safe either. Does that make sense? You went through something that, again, really, really horrific.

You got a phone call one day that your mother had been shot by this man. Yeah. And she'd been shot point blank in the head by this man. Yeah. How old were you then? 20s when this happened. Let me think. No, I was closer to my 30s because my younger brother was old enough-ish to drive

but shouldn't have been able to drive. So maybe he was like 14. So yeah, maybe I'm like 24 at the time, somewhere there. 24. You get a phone call from him, your younger brother? Yeah. Saying mom's been shot. What goes through your head in that moment when you get a call like that?

What went through my head was I knew exactly who did it, I knew what had happened. One of the worst things that comes with growing up in a house of domestic abuse and a house where you're dealing with an alcoholic is You become hypersensitive and you become really good at predicting things, you know, so I Mean my friends know till this day I'm like I'll be the kind of person I'll tell you when we should leave a party before a fight breaks out I'm never around for the fights because I can feel it. I can feel energy, I can feel, and not like woo, like no, just not noticing.

People are not having as much fun as they were 20 minutes ago and a few of the guys are stepping on each other and the ratio in the room has gotten bad and the music's not connecting with people. I'll just, I'll be like, ah, it's time to leave. You know, and I think that from what I've understood in therapy and working with people who do the research around this is children start to develop an acute sense, it's like a Spidey sense.

You hear the sound of a car and you know which car is bringing danger to the house. I would know by the sounds of the footsteps whether or not my stepfather was sober or drunk. Just by his footsteps I knew. By the way he would close or open a door, I would know whether to be on edge or not. And so when I got that call, everything in me let go. Like it was one of the most, still is, like a painful memory. You know, is like the first thought I had was damn, it happened. I thought it would, but not like this, but it happened.

It happened? Yeah. What is the cost? Because you described that Spidey Sense, it almost sounds like a gift. It happened. What is the cost? Because you described that Spidey Sense, it almost sounds like a gift. And the interesting thing, to some degree, it can be a gift. Yeah, it is a gift. I think every gift is a curse.

And I think every curse is a gift. And what is the curse that comes with the gift? So the curse that comes with it is I exist in a space where I am too aware of how other people feel. And as I've come to understand it, what happens to a lot of children who are in abusive households is they develop their hypersensitivity as a tool to protect the parent because they start in the same way you were saying with your dad, why is he just sitting here? What happens in a household of domestic abuse is a child goes, oh, my parent does not know when danger is impending.

And so I then need to be on alert for them. Because if they don't know, then I need to be alert. And if I'm alert, I can keep everybody safe. And so you develop that acute sense. You develop, you know, your nervous system doesn't rest. I would sit in a room and I would feel the people and I still have that. I now have to practice letting that go. And so part of it is probably why I'm a good comedian.

But it's like learning when I want to use it and when I don't. So learning when to ignore it. Do you have a choice? Yeah, yeah, yeah, you do. You definitely do. You know, I think emotions, you don't really have a choice about your emotions most of the time, but you do choose how you react or how it affects you. And so what I'll try and do is genuinely, sometimes I'll be even in a conversation,

I practice it when it's low stakes. I'll be with friends and I can feel the conversation getting heated and I can feel someone's going to say something that'll hurt somebody else. And then what I'll practice doing is just keeping quiet and breathing. Whereas what I used to do was I would jump in immediately. I would interrupt, you know, and I'd be like, oh, did you guys see the... And I would diffuse and I'd find a way. And I was very good at it. I still am. But now I'll just breathe and I'll be like, well, did you guys see the... And I would diffuse and I'd find a way. And I was very good at it.

I still am. But now I'll just breathe and I'll be like, well, let's see where this goes. I know my friends are not going to hit each other, but I now breathe and go like, it's not my job to protect everybody. And so I just try and breathe through the feeling and see how it turns out. Sometimes I even do it as a game to see if I am right, because sometimes you're predicting what one of the outcomes, and it may not be the outcome. And I then trust that they can also resolve things themselves.

And that's probably one of the hardest things is as a child, because as you said, you're not understanding how your father's a prisoner on this chair getting berated. And I as a child am going, I don't understand why my mother doesn't understand the danger. Why doesn't she leave? And why is she even getting into a conversation with this man? He's not sober. Why is this happening? Many children experience this.

And then you then go, this person cannot protect themselves so I have to do it for them. And how did you try and do that? Sometimes I would just disrupt anything. I could disrupt a conversation. I could find a way to sort of like... Distract things. Yeah. Like Chris Pratt with those raptors in Jurassic Park.

Just find a way to like snap and you know, just pull attention. Find ways to, it sounds ridiculous, but literally it was me just thinking of ways, you know, do you close a door that then has to be open that then alerts more people to the presence of somebody or do you turn the TV up in this way or do you say something to him so that he, you know, his mood might shift in a certain way. All of these things I was thinking of and this is me thinking of these things at the age of let's say nine, ten, eleven, twelve, you know, all the way through. And does it ever go the other way where you're also trying to cheer up your mother at all?

Or take care of her spirits or...? No, no. I think my mother's gift and curse has always been the fact that her religion has powered her through. And if you know somebody who's very religious, you'll know that their connection with God and their purpose pushes them through obstacles that most human beings would never be able to survive. Never, never, never.

So there was never despair on the other side that I could feel from my mom. I never felt like I had to like cheer her up. You know, the house definitely descended into like a, like a doom and you could feel there was a, there was a palpable sense of tension post what had happened. That day you presumably rushed to the hospital. Yeah. You arrived there. You speak to doctors, I imagine. Yeah.

Did you speak to him? Did you tell the police about him? Did you call him? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, this is all happening in the chaos and the panic. You called him? I don't remember if I called him or if he called. I don't remember how it happened.

Did you speak to him after this event? No. No. And then you find out that there's been a bit of a miracle, I guess, because the bullet has missed all of the fatal parts of the head. I mean, find out is such a drawn out feeling and moment because time is weird in that it stands still when you're experiencing the worst of it and it flies when it's the best of it and

so that that moment it even when you say the word you do find out I go like no that it what felt like forever was us waiting for the inevitable news that you know my mom our mom was dead like that that seemed like the The conclusion I mean I've watched movies you movies, someone gets shot in the head and it's over, you know. So that was a, yeah, that was me grieving. It's a very strange experience to have because I grieved somebody. I grieved the loss of my mother, but then she didn't die.

But I completely grieved her as if she was gone. Like I cried because she was gone. I didn't cry because she was hurt. I was like, it's over. It's finished. Every thought ran through my head. I was like, wow, I'm raising my brothers now. I was like, okay, I guess now I'm the head of the household.

It's amazing. Like my brain spun and every day I was already now thinking 10 years ahead. I was like, oh man, okay, where are we living? What are we doing? How is this going to work? Where's my little brother? What do I tell him? How do I... In that moment you must... You're so interesting because you get to see in that most horrific way the fragility of the most important relationship in your life, to come out the other side and realize how fragile that... Because you know, you talked about our parents almost being these presidents, you also live under the assumption that they're always kind of going to be there.

Yeah. And in that moment, you got to see that that's not guaranteed. Yeah. And that curse ended up being one of my greatest gifts. Because from that day onwards, I have never seen my mother the same way. Every time I look at her, I'm grateful that she exists. Every time I hold her, I hold her like it's the last time. She even pushes me off sometimes. I hug her hard, hug her hard, and I hug her like it's the last time. She even pushes me off sometimes. I hug her hard, hug her hard and I hug her for long.

And I think this is extended to other people in my world to be honest with you. I'm very cognizant of the fact that this thing is ephemeral. I don't know when it'll disappear. So it has made me more appreciative of that. I don't assume. I hope and I think there's a possibility that we will meet again. What does they say in Arabic? Inshallah. God willing. I don't know. And it was a bit of a miracle. I was reading because you're right.

Yeah, no, it was. In movies you hear someone get shot in the head. You never hear that they survive a bullet to the head. Whereas in your mother's case, she survived it by some... Yeah, that's where we have to go miracle. And that's where we still joke till this day, you know, because my mom's very religious. I grew up very religious, but very skeptical of religion or anything really. And I was taught to question, ironically by my mother. My mother taught me to question.

She still questions things. She doesn't follow blindly. So I think I was in this position, and I think many of us were, where I'm seeing what I think is the end. The doctors are saying to me, we're going to try what we can, but it looks terrible. And then we find out that the bullet entered the back of her skull, went through her head, and then exited. It shattered. It basically missed the bottom of the brain, went past the spinal cord all the way through and then hit her cheekbone, which then deflected the bullet and then went out of her nose.

So it like cut off a little piece of her nose, but the exit wound wasn't as bad as it could have been. And yeah. And the doctors couldn't do anything. So there was no brain surgery. There was no opening of it. It was just stopping, bleeding, closing wounds, and now praying. And the doctor was the one who said miracle.

And he said, I hate this word because I'm a man of science and I'm a doctor. He said, but this was a miracle. He said, this shouldn't have happened like this. And then my mom was like, yeah, of course. Of course it's a miracle. And of course this is course it's a miracle. And of course this is how it was going to happen. She's like, you know, my Lord protects me.

So. He didn't go to prison? No, no he didn't. How does that? So in South Africa, I don't think it's unique to South Africa as well. When I've traveled to other African countries, I've learned this is unfortunately true. The crime that a man commits against his wife or his partner isn't given the same validity as if it were committed against a stranger, the court system

doesn't treat it the same. The law is somehow not applied with the same level of ferocity as if it were somebody else. And so in this instance, they basically ruled something to the effect of like, oh, it was his first offense and would he repeat it or not? It's a failing of the justice system that has meant that many women in South Africa and other parts of the world don't feel like justice gets served. You see it time and time again.

You see it in the US all the time, unfortunately. You'll see man kills wife and family and themselves possibly. And the case just isn't treated with the same. It's always seen as like there's like a, oh, something went wrong in a tragic love affair. It's always labeled like that. And I think that's affected our ability in society to treat it the way we should. When you described the miracle that that bullet traveled from the back of your mother's head through her head and then out her nose, it made me think about what we said at the start

of the conversation about dominoes and how, in this case, millimeters changed the course of your life because as you say, the responsibilities you would have then had to assume. You see? Everything changes. By millimeters. Yeah, everything changes. I probably don't move to America. I don't explore the world in the same way. I take on a whole different role in my life Everything changes What about anger towards him towards able oh geez though? Yeah, that's that's been a tough one for me

Cuz I cuz I experienced every emotion you know, I talk about in my book like I have experienced every motion because I mean Fear was the first one. The idea that this person could take away the life of someone who arguably I loved the most. Then like rage, helplessness, even shame, feeling like I didn't protect her because I knew from the beginning.

Literally, I write about this in the book. My grandmother would tell us stories of how, because she had the best memory in the family, she would tell us stories of how when I was young, when my mom first met my stepdad, I was saying to the family, I was like, this guy's great and everything, but I don't think this is a good idea. I don't think he's a good man. I don't think we should trust him. I was saying this as a child. And the one thing that I think confuses people sometimes when it comes to domestic abuse is that we think of it as a binary.

So people go like, how can these bad men live these lives? But we don't realize that oftentimes the moment of bad is the explosion. But everything around it is charisma and charm and jokes. I laughed with this man most of my life. I had some of my favorite experiences with him as a human being. When he was wonderful, he was the most wonderful human being you'd ever meet. And it took me a while to understand how to consolidate those ideas, how to resolve the fact that somebody who you love, someone who treated you with respect

and joy in some moments was also the person who brought you the most pain. So I definitely, anger was like a big one for me. I thought everything. Anger at myself, anger at my mom for staying to the point that that could happen, anger at him, anger at the system for not protecting, anger just everywhere and then anger dipping into pain and anguish and then crying it out and then being angry again and then being scared and then just going through waves and waves and waves of that. And so that was a lot of my time in therapy and a lot of my time having conversations with my mom.

And my mom would always say to me, she'd be like, over time you learn to forgive. And I was like, I don't think I could ever forgive. And she was like, yeah. But forgiving doesn't mean forgetting. It means letting go of the thing that the person is holding of you as opposed to, you know, it's not you letting them into your life, it's not, it's just going like, yeah, that happened. I feel for them. I understand many of the things that made them do what they did.

And then trying to let go of that anger that's like burning inside you, that rage. And I'm glad my mom did that because in the years since, you know, I've spent more time reading about domestic abuse and learning about domestic abuse and speaking to experts about it. But unfortunately, there's a reason, there's a vicious cycle. You know, a lot of young boys who grew up in homes where their moms are abused grow up to then become abusers themselves, even though they hated the very idea of what they were experiencing. And so to your point, I think it's because of that now unreleased and unrealized anger

that they didn't get to express when they were children because they weren't safe and then now at some point it comes out of them. And so I genuinely had to deal with that. I had to even accept the idea that I was as angry as I was, angry and helpless, which is a terrible combination for a human being to experience. Have you forgiven him? I think in moments, yes, I think I have. I think the levels of my forgiveness won't reach my mom's because she was in love with

him. To me, this was still a person who came into my life. He's not my biological father. I don't think I've ever reached the level of pure, like, I forgive you, but I do understand. I think I understand a lot of it. I think I feel sorry for him. I think I've learned to come to terms with it, but like pure forgiveness, I'd be lying to you if I'm like, yeah, I've forgiven. I'm like, no, I think so sometimes.

And then other times I go like, no, actually I don't. That experience has left fingerprints on you in some way. Oh, definitely. And how do those fingerprints still show up today in your day-to-day life, in your profession? Oh, I wouldn't know the answer to that question. Because the strange thing, again, I think about the mind is that the things that affect us sometimes may not be the things that are as obvious to us as we may think. You can get into a car accident and experience an acute trauma and you know how this affects

you and you'll be shocked that many of the other things you're dealing with in your life where you're struggling aren't actually from that car accident. They're from like the minute moments in your life where somebody rejected you. You weren't chosen to play on the team as a kid. You failed a test. You were bullied. And I don't say this like dismissively. I say it cautiously.

I go like, oh, I would be careful to put all of it on that moment because in a weird way that moment was contained. It came with many other instances. But yeah, as I've sat and explored myself and my brain and my mind in therapy, I've realized that some of the things that you think will affect you the most might not. They might stay in that world. And then there's all these other things that affect you way more than you would ever think they even have the right to.

So I wouldn't know, to be honest with you. I wouldn't be able to say to you, oh, I'm like this because of that, or I'm like that because of that. No. I do think I appreciate people more. You know, I'm very present when I'm with my loved ones. Yeah, but other than that, I couldn't give you a concrete answer that would be genuine. You said something about young men struggling, which came to mind as you were talking about you being that young man who seemed to be quite confused with a variety of emotions

and less experienced about what the correct outlets were for those emotions. You said recently, in fact, one of the big things I've been worried about recently is young men and how angry they've become, how alone they've become, how isolated they've become, and then ironically, how they've turned anger, isolation into a community. There's a couple of words there that seem to fit the shoe that would go on your foot. Anger, isolation, as a young man, loneliness. Can you relate to what young men are going through in the sort of modern world today? Because the stats on young men are quite shocking.

The mental health stats, the suicidality stats, the depression stats, the stats around purposelessness. And I wanted to know how you're looking at young men today. I get asked all the time by people that listen to the show. They say they've got a young son and the son is struggling. They don't know who they are, where they belong, what their purpose is. How to make friends is a big one. What are you seeing when you look out into the world, the state of young men? So I think I can empathize with a lot of it and I think I can relate to some of it.

But on my side, you know, other than the anger, let's say, I wasn't isolated. I didn't feel isolated at all. Because I got to play with other kids and because I was with other kids and because I had my cousins and everybody, I never felt isolated. So even when I was talking to you about my grandmother, I think you used isolated, but I didn't because I genuinely never perceived it as that. Because I was in the home with people. It's just they were grannies.

So do you get what I'm saying? So I didn't feel like isolated in that way. Definitely felt like an outsider though, which is a different feeling that's adjacent. I think it occupies the same lexical field, but it isn't the exact same thing. Because isolation, I think, can come with a certain solitude and a certain feeling of like knowing that you are in this thing alone because you are in this thing alone. But then being an outsider is a different, you know, it's a different type of torture. And I think that's maybe what a lot of men are experiencing that I can relate to.

I think for a long time, we've lived in a world where we've told people what they're supposed to do, how they're supposed to do it, and it was sort of easily realized. And now I'm not a historian. I don't know every history that we've gone through. But from the little that I've read and from the historians that I have spoken to, you know, society goes in these waves and we move through these waves. And I think we shouldn't take for granted now that there was a whole generation of young

men who were given a purpose by war, a lot of war. And war is one of the most powerful thrusts of purpose that a nation will ever experience. Young men are told what they're supposed to be doing. Your country needs you. You need to go and fight young man. You need to protect this country. And you're like, I need to protect this country. Now even if you don't want to dodge the draft, you've been given a purpose in a strange way.

Even if you're like, I'm anti-war. Now you have a purpose. Your purpose is to be against the war. Your purpose is to oppose the war. Your purpose is to spread love and peace. The other person's purpose is to survive the war. Another person's purpose is to win at the war. But you have a purpose.

And that purpose is powerful and it propels nations forward. And then you enter into a period of what we would argue is relative peace. And I say relative because there are many parts of the world where there are just like these constant chronic wars that are waging. But for most people, what are you doing? Sitting in a world where there is no draft and there is no imminent war. It's a choice now. Do you want to go to the military or do you not?

You don't have to. Then also, things aren't just given to you. Before when your parents were like, go get a job, it meant there was a job to get. If your parents were like, go get a job, it was almost harder to not get a job, it meant there was a job to get. If your parents were like, go get a job, you could. It was almost harder to not get a job back in the day than it is now in a strange way. Because it was just like this thing you do. It was doing. I sweep, I clean, I collect, I fix.

It was so simple. And I think now we're living in a world where many young men are experiencing a purposelessness because it's sort of like not laid out in any way, shape or form. And I think we've created such a narrow scope of what people can do or can't do or, you know, like we've rewarded so few things that I think we've exacerbated the problem. You know, gone are the times when being a painter, a philosopher, a, you know, some sort of artist and is like celebrated in that way. You know, gone are the days where skills are passed down from generation to generation

and it seems like that's less and less becoming a thing. And from what I've been told, a lot of it can be tracked back to industrialization and this consolidation of manufacturing. An interesting point of this, as you were talking, is because more women are graduating with college degrees and because of the equality movement, that meant that men and women now are both in the workforce at high level positions. I mean, even in that, there's going to be less jobs available for those men who would clearly before in the past have- Yeah, they would just have the job.

Yeah. And also, this is really interesting thing that a lady was talking about my podcast where she said that there's still a stigma in society that a man is to be the provider, but in a world where they're less able to get those top jobs to provide and women are earning more, which no one's got an issue with at all. Not no one. Some people have an issue with that. That's true. I don't have an issue. I don't think you do. But they were referring to it as the, you could say the short man problem or the tall girl problem.

Where effectively they were saying that women want to date up and to the right, which has been shown in the surveys. But there's less people up to the right now. And there was another survey that said 70 or 80% of women want their husband to be a provider. But the math doesn't math here, because there isn't that many men up there anymore. So when you look at the dating stats, the sex stats, the age in which men lose their virginity now, the amount of men

that haven't had sex in the last year, it effectively looks like just the top 10% of men are having all the fun and the bottom 50% have been disenfranchised by the system. Yeah, but I, so I think about this all the time and I try and spend as much time reading, thinking and discussing with people who are far more brilliant than I'll ever be. And what I've come to realize is we may now be experiencing a culmination of the dominoes. We're experiencing the dominoes of a declining middle class and governments around the world no longer propping up the middle class because anyone who's real about economics knows that the middle class is an invented thing really and it's governments actively saying we're

going to create it. So as that has declined over time and people have sort of created this illusion that no, everyone can just get there on their own merits and like nothing needs to be created for you, we've seen the middle class decline. What happens then is there's a gap between the rich and the poor. Then there's another domino that falls and it's like the consolidation of wealth. These mega corporations around the world that find ways to not pay taxes, that find ways to pay like slave wages to some people

and then sell you a cheap product and then give you credit that you shouldn't get and then put you in a debt cycle that you shouldn't be in. That's one domino. And then politics becomes more polarized and more extreme because of algorithms and the way we say that's another domino, that's another domino, that's another domino, that's another domino. Companies find ways, as you said, to hire fewer people to get more out of them or hire different people. That's another domino. That's another domino. Companies find ways, as you said, to hire fewer people to get more out of them or hire different people.

That's another domino. And in a strange way, I think of this sometimes. I go, you see gifts and curses. This is purely anecdotal in my life. It's not research, but I'm willing to bet on this and I'm willing to stand by it. One of the curses that women experience because of being pushed out of the workplace and being like forced to stay at home and for such a long time was they learned how to find purpose in what most people would consider mundane and maybe even meaningless. Women have found ways to like fill their time with community and with connecting and they found

ways to look after their bodies and work out and do things. And it's different in different communities like knitting clubs, book clubs. Just think about that. It's like it takes up your time, it gives you a purpose. We're going to read this book and then we're going to discuss it. I mean fundamentally it's nothing, but it's something. And it drives you forward. It makes you feel like you're supposed to be somewhere, you're supposed to be doing

something. And then when the workplace opened up, the women are like, oh, we can go and work as well and, you know, I don't know about you, but in school all the girls were smarter than we were in class anyway. And so now they're comfortably working, especially in an office it's sort of like designed perfectly for them in that way. And then guys, I think we haven't practiced that. I don't know many guys, I don't know about you, I don't know many guys who know how to just sit with their male friends and just be.

Not do a thing, be. Like just be. Just be. And I find, and I'll be careful in saying this, but I have found that the degree of comfort in just being is different depending on where you're from in the world. So my friends who are from third world countries, developing nations, whether it's South Africa and we're in the township, or whether it's my friends from Trinidad, or it's my... Like in Trinidad, they even have a word for it, liming, they say. They say, let's lime. And liming means spending time together with no purpose whatsoever.

That's literally what my Trini friends said. They're like, yo, we're going to lime on Saturday? That means we're doing nothing. It doesn't mean we're going to go see a game. It doesn't mean we're going to watch a movie. We're going to lime. It means your friend is going to come, they're going to sit on the couch, and you're just going to be.

You'll talk, and then you won't talk, be. You'll talk and then you won't talk and then you laugh and then you won't laugh. And I don't know about you but I feel like guys are, we're not as good at that, you know. Like I read something the other day that was great and was talking about how guys always need the third thing. There's always the third thing. There's you, there's me and there's the third thing. Hey, what are you doing on Saturday? Why don't we, you want to go fishing?

It's like, why do we need the fishing? Why can't we just sit like this and be like, hey, what's happening in your heart, Stephen? What's going on? What's happening in my heart? Or let me tell you about what's going on. Women can do that. And some may argue that it's, you know, maybe they've been genetically coded. But I also think they've been forced to practice that because men were like, you can't come

to the, you know, the factory, the office, everything for so long. And then women are like, all right. And I think that's another thing that men are struggling with. But it's not like their fault. It's the dominoes. When I was young, we used to go to the mall. We used to go to the mall and we'd hang out with other kids. And then now malls aren't really a thing.

And then kids don't really hang out anywhere. And everything's become about money and transactions. Think about how few places you can go to connect with people without money now. You know what I mean? But when I was growing up, it was quite common. You just went and you hung out with other kids and that was just what you did. It didn't involve money. And I think we're starting to experience that domino affecting society now. Do you have money for a video game console? No? Oh, then you can't meet up with your friends on Fortnite.

Do you have money to go to a movie? No, you don't. Or movies have gone up. Yeah, you can't hang out with your friends at the movies. Can you afford an Uber ride? No, you can't. Can you? All these things now have meant that I think we're experiencing a generation of men in particular who are

not just isolated but not practiced in the arts of just like connecting with another male for no other purpose than to just like share hearts and be human beings. I've heard you talk about how you think we're a sort of continuation of our ancestors and their sort of legacy. I've heard you talk about this before and as you were saying about this idea that women are able to connect without the third thing, it made me think, you know, I think a lot of women have had that modeled by another generation that came before them. Whereas I don't know about you, but I didn't have that model. I never saw my dad sit with a guy.

But that's what I mean. He didn't even talk to us. We didn't even have those conversations. I call him by his first name. And I mean, he wouldn't even, he's like an awkward hugger. You know, like a guy, you might get the fuck off me. But we don't have that model. So where do we learn the skill? And you'd be weird if you said to your friends, well, most people would be weird if they said, we just want to sit down and just what's in your heart. Yeah, no.

What's wrong with you? Yeah, my friends treat me like that. I still do that now. I think they've softened to it. My friends have sort of, they indulge me. And I think they enjoy it for the most part. But like I do that with my guy friends and just be like, man, let's just take a moment. Just look into my eyes and let's just take a moment.

Well here's the thing, funny enough. I spent most of my life with women. So I spent most of my time with my mom, with my grandmother, with my grandmother and my grandmother's friends because I was in the house with them. I'm just sitting around with these women just like talking and sharing. I spend very little time with like the men in that way. So those men that are struggling, they'll probably be hearing you and thinking that you're so far away from them in terms of that ability to be emotionally expressive and just

to check in. For a lot of them it's uncomfortable. What is it they need? Like where do they need to start? Is there a place to start? I think it is difficult, but I also think we have tools to make it easy. You know, so I'm very hesitant to very quickly just say to every man, hey go out there and be vulnerable and whatever. Because the sad truth is a lot of guys have punished a lot of guys for being vulnerable and being themselves.

And we have to acknowledge that as well. You know, there's so many times when a guy will go to their friends and say, man, I'm sad. People are like, you're sad? Oh, what are you, a pussy? Oh, look at the girl, she's sad. What do you mean she broke up with you? Come on, get out there, man.

And now all of a sudden, the circle that you had that you thought was protecting you has revealed to you that if you show your vulnerability, you're ostracized from it. It's not safe. Yeah, so you don't want to be there. And then sometimes we even turn into a fight. Now all of a sudden people are slapping you or hitting you or punching you because you've admitted that you're vulnerable. And so I think that's another place where young men struggle is like we have to maintain

this bravado and then we see all these influences online who keep telling us like, yeah, you're a tough guy, that's all you got, you got to be a tough man, you got to be a tough man, that's what you got to do. Never once are they saying to you like, yo, what do you feel? How do you get rid of those feelings? Or how do you deal with them? How do you process them? Who's your friend that you can like literally sit with and cry with?

Do you have one? But I do think we have tools, you know. I think, again, you again, gifts and curses, the curse of the online world is that it affords everybody anonymity and so they can be the worst of themselves. I think the gift is also the anonymity. I think a lot of people will be shocked at how you can connect to a person online in like a really honest and beautiful way because you're safer in a way. I've made some of my best friends playing Warzone. When the pandemic hits, I was like,

everyone was playing Warzone. I was like, I'll jump on, not really like an FPS guy. And I jumped on and I was decent at it. But I made friends playing this game and would talk to people and you'd regularly meet with them. And some people were assholes, but a lot of them weren't. And the ones who weren't, I would re-link up with and we'd play. And then it goes from talking about the game and talking about your loadouts, and then all of a sudden you're talking about your family and your life and how are things and how's your week been and how's work been and what's going on with your boss and that promotion

and that. And to this day, one of my friends, one of my closest friends, a person who I like, considered like a brother to me, is from that video game. I never knew what he looked like. All I knew was what he sounded like. And we like know each other, because we explored a world that was

for all intents and purposes fake, and yet the most real experience that we could have. And I think, you know, I look at like Reddit for instance. I think Reddit's one of the most beautiful communities I've ever seen where a guy can get on Reddit, you can write a post and you can say anything. You can say, I'm struggling with this. I'm having suicidal thoughts. I feel like I don't have a purpose.

And you'll be shocked at how many other guys will jump on and go, hey man, I'm in the same boat. Hey, I'm also struggling. I'm also sad. I also, my parents, I don't have a good relationship with them. You'll be shocked at how that community comes around you because there is the safety of knowing that you're not exposing your name and your face, but you are exposing the thing that's inside you.

Is it a shame that we can't do that in person as well? Oh yeah, definitely. But you are exposing the thing that's inside you. Is it a shame that we can't do that in person as well? Oh yeah, definitely. I think it's the biggest thing that's limiting men. I think it truly is. It's one of the biggest things that's limiting men in society. Is that we don't have an outlet for our emotions. So if we're not fighting or competing, then we're just bottling.

It comes with a cost, doesn't it, if you bottle things? Yeah, it does. It never really stays inside, doesn't it, if you bottle things? Yeah, it does. It never really stays inside the bottle. It's like the bottle's got a hole in it or something. Exactly. You said something I really related to, which is you said you didn't feel like you belonged when you were younger. And I wondered when I was reading, you say this in your books and in other interviews you've done, if that was at all related to your skin colour. I'm

assuming it was in part, but I grew up with the exact same feeling. Like there's a reason why I don't know anybody from my hometown where I lived for almost until I was 18 years old. Wow. Because I just always felt like we were different. We were always different. Everyone's white. We're the black poor family. And we just talked different. I had different ideas of the world and dreams. But even now, I still don't feel like I belong. So where do you feel like you most belong then? No, almost nowhere.

No, but where do you most belong? There's got to be a place where you feel like you most belong. When I'm alone. Oh, wow. That's when I feel like I'm... That's when you can truly be whatever the fuck you want to be. Maybe when I'm alone, I guess. That's when you can truly be whatever the fuck you want to be. Maybe when I'm alone, I guess.

That's when you feel like you most belong. Okay, let's take it away from alone. I'm saying with other people or even in a place. Is there a city you go to? Is there a group that you're amongst? You're telling me there's nowhere that you go to where you think to yourself, wow, I belong here. There's definitely not a city. I'd say maybe when I'm with my brothers,

on Christmas, just because they also didn't really fit anywhere. So we kind of all don't, you know, and they kind of look like me, so I think that's the only thing. But there's a lot of people that don't feel like they belong and they're trying to find their place in the world. You were a kid from South Africa that didn't feel like he belonged. Have you found your place in the world? So I have and I haven't.

I just find places and moments where I feel comfortable and I feel like I'm, yeah, I feel warm is the best way to describe it. And this is a lesson that I've learned actually, if you're struggling with this. It may not apply to everybody, but I think it can help. Sometimes the feeling of being alone is exacerbated by the fact that you are trying to connect with people based only on you and yourself. So you go, I'm alone. I don't feel like I belong. And then you want to go meet somebody and you're just like you go, I'm alone. I don't feel like I belong.

And then you want to go meet somebody and you're just like, hello, I'm me. Do I belong to you? Do you belong to me? And they're like, who are you? What are you doing here? You're weird. And we don't know how to belong and how... But what I found works wonders is finding things you enjoy.

Focus on finding things you enjoy, like things that you like doing, activities, and I mean anything, running, playing a sport, reading, like any activity with your hands. Fishing. Fishing, find it, find the thing that you love, find it. I want to show you some graphs that I was just thinking of. As you were speaking, I'll put them on the screen for anyone to look at. But have you seen these graphs before? Have you seen these graphs before?

People keep us, oh yeah, I've seen, I've seen something similar to this. Yes. In terms of our age and then who we're with in our lives. Yeah. And I was particularly looking at the friend graph there. So the amount of time you'll spend with different people as you age. And when I first saw this, it was really, really shocking to me. And actually this graph changed my life a lot because it made me realise that if I don't do anything, the sort of five best friends that I have will drift away from me. And I saw this in your story that your relationship with friendship and connection has evolved over time. Yeah. What has that journey been like if you take me back from when you left South Africa,

you arrive in America to pursue your dream as being this comedian. How did your priorities shift as it relates to friendship and connection? I think because I spent so much time alone as a kid, I loved other people. Do you know what I mean? I love being alone. I love spending time by myself. But man, when I can dig a hole under that gate and connect with other kids, I'm in heaven. And when I became a young adult and I was starting to work, I really appreciated the people who would come into my life and what they would teach me and what they would remind me of myself, which is like an important thing to me.

I think fundamentally that's what great friendship is, is somebody who sees a part of you that you wish to grow more of, and then every time you're meeting with them, they're encouraging it and they're reminding you of it. And that's why I warn people about bad friends. Because a bad friend can do the same thing. If I say to you, think of the kid who bullied you in school. Think of that kid who was really mean to you. I bet you, you met them today.

I don't care how successful you are on this podcast, there's a little bit of that kid that got bullied that they still have. Oh, 100%. Do you know what I mean? 100%. I can think of him like this. There you go. And where I was stood when he called me the M-word. Exactly.

Exactly. And it's amazing how that happens to us. But it's because they hold us in a moment, you know? And some people hold you in a negative moment, and some people hold you in a positive moment. There are some friends I can think of where, no matter what is happening in my life, if I meet them, I'm smiling, I'm thinking, I'm being creative, I'm laughing, I'm loving,

I'm sharing, I'm feeling, I can't control it. It's not something that I'm actively trying to do because they are constantly seeing that part of me that I wish to encourage. How do you define a bad friend? How do you know? how do you spot one? I don't think you spot them, I think you feel it. And I think it's a lot easier for us to spot than we think it is.

One of the easiest ones is can you be yourself? Sometimes they're not a bad friend, they're a bad friend for you because you are not revealing yourself to them. And so they are being friends with the idea of you but they're not being friends with you. And then you leave thinking, I don't feel good. But they don't even know you. So you can't blame them for being a bad friend. I almost don't think there's such a thing as a bad

friend. I think you're just in a bad friendship. Because they could be a great friend to somebody else. So I wouldn't even define them as being a good or bad friend. I just go, this is a bad friendship for you. And what I learned very early on was like the value of good friendships, you know, and I learned because of my mom. I remember once I was um, this was I was 1920 I just finished high school. So I was yeah, I was 19 and Just finished high school and I spent all my time hanging out with like friends of mine in the hood, you know.

And we just did nothing the whole day and we got up to mischief and we're like, how do we make money? How do we hustle? How do we do these things? And then my cousin went to university. And then I, because his university like had this like open-ish policy, you could just hang out on campus all day. And so I started hanging out with him on campus pretty much the whole day when he wasn't in

lectures. And then I went home one day and my mom was beaming. I walked in with my cousin and my mom was like, oh, how are you, Bhutia? And she's so happy and she's like, oh, nice to see you. And she said, oh, I'm so happy. I'm so happy that you guys are spending this time together. And I said, why, I'm so happy. I'm so happy that you guys are spending this time together. And I said, why are you so happy? And my mom said, because you spend all your time at the university.

And I said to my mom, I was like, mom, I don't go to university. I just hang around and I do nothing. And she said, yes, but the people you're hanging around and doing nothing with will inspire you to do more with your life because they're doing something with it. And I was like, what? And she said to me, she was like, you cannot be around people who are moving and not wish to move. Whether we like it or not, the people around us are affecting how we see ourselves and

how we wish to be seen. And that stuck with me. I don't think I took it immediately, but it definitely stuck in my brain. And the friends that I have today are still, I have new friends, you know, as I grow in life, but the friends that I have today, my core group of friends, you'll see them with me at the Grammys. You'll see them sometimes like when I'd be like, you know, backstage at the Daily Show. You'll see them with me at random events in the world.

You'll see them backstage at my comedy shows. These people have literally been with me on a journey where they've got their own lives, but our journeys have been intertwined because they always make me want to be more and do more and grow more and change it. And I think I do the same thing for them. And we're constantly challenging each other and encouraging each other and playing with each other. And that has been, I mean, that's been immeasurable for me.

You know, that's, I even value that more than I do like, let's say success. On the subject of success, friendship, sacrifice, the moment when you come to the United States, you are very hardworking to say the least. In fact, when we sat down, you know, you've flown from Portugal to, where was it? Seattle. Seattle to Vegas, then here to New York in the last couple of days or so? Yeah, four days I think in total. Yeah, four days. You don't have to do that.

You don't have to do that. I mean, I don't know what's in your bank account, but I would hazard a guess that you don't need the money. So I often wonder, what is it that's driving you today? Someone said to me the other day on the podcast, they said, they referred to my driving force in my life as potentially being toxic fuel. And I've never had the phrase toxic fuel before. But the definition of that is this sort of combination of seemingly negative forces that pushes you to prove something, whether it's to yourself or to others or, and shame's to yourself or to others.

Okay. And shame is a big part of that. I mean, you see it a lot, I think, with first generation immigrants when they come to a country. They know what it's like to be without, so they're driven by this toxic fuel. How does that land with you? And can you relate to any of that at all? I can, but I don't think that's been my case.

If you spoke to me three, four years ago and you said, Trevor, you went to Portugal, you went to Seattle, you went to Vegas, and now you're in New York, and it would be, yes, because I went to work here, I went to work here, I went to work there, and I went to work there. Now I was in Portugal with my friends. That's why I was in Portugal with my friends. That's why I was in Portugal You know I was in Seattle because I was working I work with Microsoft, but it's like on It's like a passion project. You know I get to work on tech

I get to explore technology and ideas and work with engineers and you know just Enhance my mind and then I was in Vegas doing work and then in New York I'm having a conversation with you, but this is not like in a work world. So I go like, oh, I'm going to have a great conversation with you. And I also love being in New York because my friends are here and this is technically where I live. So like if you said to me, let's do this interview, not in New York, I would have said no. But because you chose a city where my friends are, I'll say yes to you.

And it didn't used to be the case. So now I have made one of the determining factors of how I live my life, I think of it through the lens of friends first. Because I think that community is literally the most important thing in everybody's life, not just my life, everybody's life. I know some people will be like, my family.

I'm like, yeah, you think that. And it is true. But as you said on the yeah, you think that, and it is true. But as you sit on the graphs, you'll see. At some point, you're going to get old, and your kids are going to go off and live their own lives and do their own thing. And then you're going to be shocked at how it's you and your spouse, if you're lucky. And all of a sudden, you're alone. And you're like, where are all my friends?

Where are all these people? But friendships are, you know, they're little piggy banks. You're putting money in, and they're putting money in yours. And every now and again, you get, they're little piggy banks. You're putting money in and they're putting money in yours and every now and again you get to break them open and enjoy what's inside. But that's the most important thing. That's how, that's my, like literally that's my success now. Now. Yeah, that's my success now. Before, it was just because I loved solving any puzzle that

somebody would put in front of me. That's all that drove me and that's a lot of what still drives me now. I just love puzzles. And what was the puzzle that brought you to America? So the puzzle was can somebody host The Daily Show when they're like not from America and you know, it's like just all these things. Can you even do it? Can you go host a show in America?

Like, well, this is a crazy puzzle. Seems impossible. So let's try it. Was money or fame or anything part of that? Because fame is often associated with a form of like validation. No. No. That's the curse of what I do.

I often say to people, I, you know, I'm unlucky that a part of my job comes with fame. I don't like that part of my job. Why? Because I don't need it nor do I want it. What's the cost of it? The curse? Oh, I mean, I'm sure you're starting to experience this in many ways in your life. But like, It's, people will never appreciate the beauty and the tranquility that comes with anonymity, the ability to write your story whenever you meet someone. When you meet a stranger, let's say you're at a bar, at a restaurant, in a train station,

wherever, you can look at somebody and you can say, hello, my name is, and you can tell them who you are. And what we never seem to realize as people is every time we meet a new person, we are writing our story from the beginning and from that moment in time. And you think about this, I think of it through the lens of like, characters, characters sometimes. I go, like if Luke Skywalker met you before Luke meets Yoda, what is Luke? Luke is just like some random dude who lives on like a dusty planet.

Hi, my name's Luke. I live on a dusty planet. You meet Luke many years later and Luke's like, hi, I'm a Jedi. What a different way to live as Luke and what a different way to be. And I think that's the beauty sometimes that we have, that we take for granted as people, is the ability to rewrite a story or to write it from a different perspective because we've moved on and we've gone somewhere else. When you are now known, your anonymity is gone, people have a different idea of what privacy you deserve or don't

deserve. I've had many friends who won't go out with me in public because they go, hey man, I want to have a meal and not be disturbed. I want to wear whatever clothes I want to wear without worrying that they'll take a picture of me standing next to you and then I'll look terrible. I don't want to think about these things and I get it I get where they're coming from you know I think many of the the downsides of fame are the facts that as my mom even puts it you are now owned by the world you know people have this idea that no matter what day you're having you should engage with them no matter who you with

you should afford them the time. And I understand it from their perspective because for them, they're seeing you and they're encountering you. What a beautiful experience. But it's hard for us to imagine that that person is just having a day. I remember once joking with an ex of mine and I was saying, it's amazing how when we're having dinner or lunch in public, we can't even tell an animated story to each other. talking with an ex of mine and I was saying it's amazing how like when we're having like dinner or lunch in public, we can't even tell like an animated story to each other because

someone just sees us from far to look like we're fighting, you know? So now we're sitting there and I can't be like, yo, this guy, I was like... And if someone takes that picture and goes like, Trevor Noah fighting with this girl, and it's like no, and that becomes a thing in your world and our friends, were you fighting and other people? You'll be shocked at how pervasive it is. And I think it's why so many celebrities or famous people or people in the public eye have lived very depressed lives, have lived lives where they're isolated, have lived lives where they don't leave their homes.

And then you find them, you know them passed out in their bathtub, overdosed on something. Think about how many times you've heard that story. A really famous person has died. You never hear that they've died in public. You never hear that they've died while with their friends. No. It's always them alone in like…

A hotel room. Yeah, a hotel room, a bathtub, you know, a hot tub. But it's always like such a solitary ending for somebody that the... And then the whole world cries for them and with them. It's like, oh, I can't believe this. What do you... Oh, this is so sad. And I'm like, yeah, because you'll be shocked at how lonely being well-known can actually

be because it means you can never be alone in many places. And that's where I think core friends are very important. Matthew Feeney You said in there that you, what they don't know is that you're human, and that you're going through life in all the same ways as everyone else. Jason Kuznicki Yeah, well, no, not in the same ways, but in different ways. And I think that's the, you know, I do talk about awareness. Matthew Feeney Yeah. Jason Kuznicki I'm very careful. You know, I do talk about awareness. I'm very careful.

You know, and maybe it's because of how I was raised as well. Very careful to not make it like a woe is me thing. I'm not like fame has hurt me and it's harmed me. There are many things that have come with it. Every gift is a curse. But many of the things that it came with, I did not want nor did I need. I like waiting for a table at a restaurant. I genuinely do and I don't mind that.

I don't care for – I've never been somebody – because my friends have always been the thing. In fact, one of the days I learned the lesson in one of the most practical ways was I love roller coasters and I love going to theme parks. And we used to go with my friends and you do the usual thing. You stand in a line for an hour and then you ride for like 60 seconds and then you walk for like 30 minutes to the next one and then you do it all over again. And I loved it.

And then one day I was going to a theme park and then the theme park knew I was coming and now as the host of the Daily Show and they're like, hey, listen, we heard that you're at the theme park. We would like to take you around to all the rides. And there's like no skip, you skip the lines and you get to ride as many times as you want. And I was like, this is it. The Daily Show has paid off.

Finally, finally all the death threats are worth it. And we went and we rode on the rides and we were just manic. We did every, I mean, we did every ride that you couldn't do in a day. We finished a park that would probably take, let's say, eight to ten hours to finish. We did it all multiple times in the span of three hours. I had a headache. My friends were dehydrated. We had seldom a conversation amongst us. And it was so strange getting back in the car.

And this felt like the most depressing theme park experience we'd ever had. And we got back to the house. And I guess because my friends and I like doing this, we sort of tried to understand and analyze what had gone wrong. We're like, why do we feel like this? And we came to the conclusion, we're like, oh, we assumed that the theme park, we love the theme park because of the roller coasters. What we didn't realize was we love the theme parks because it forced us to stand in line

for an hour as friends and just be. And we just talk. There's literally, you can't do anything else. You just have to stand there for an hour and just like talk to each other. And then you hear people screaming and they've designed them. Now, like once I did that, I started like learning to each other and then you hear people screaming and and they've designed them now like once I did that I started like learning about theme parks and how brilliant ones do this to you on purpose they make you wait in certain ways and in certain places and then the screams of other of the writers make you anticipate something and become excited and and

it's all the ingredients for like living a good life I feel is instead of chasing like what seems like the exciting rollercoastery thing, you spend your time with the people you love and you look forward to amazing things that you're going to do hopefully with them or maybe just for yourself. And then when you get there, you enjoy it. And then on the other side, you take a long walk and you commiserate and you share the experience with each other and you get to process what has happened to you so that when you do it again, it becomes novel and interesting and beautiful.

And so that's like where I realized like the downsides and the upsides and the... So I appreciate many of the things that have come with my life. Don't get me wrong. But I won't lie to you, I have as much fun in a comedy club with 70 people in it as I do in an arena with 12,000 people in it. In fact, I have more fun in the comedy club. It's so paradoxical that adding friction to an experience can make the experience better, but that's kind of what you described it. And as you were talking about it, I was thinking about this study I read ages ago where they took one group of people, they had this boring

community forum, and they took one group of people, they had this boring community forum, and they took one group of people and they let those people straight into this boring community forum. And then they asked them in a survey after how was the community and all the people said boring. And they took another group of people and they made them wait to get into the forum. They made them complete tests and go through this rigorous process to fight to get into the forum. The people went into the same forum and then in surveys after, they described the forum as being so much better than the people who weren't made to go through the gauntlet to

get in. And it's this idea that friction adds value to the thing. We like fight for it. Like the 40 minute queue is what makes us so grateful for the roller coaster. And when you get robbed of that because you get to play life in easy mode or... Exactly, that's exactly what it is. That's the curse, yeah. It's great, but also, yeah, the point about connection.

I never thought that so much of the enjoyment of going to the theme park is standing there and just small talk and for an hour with my friends. It's just being. You mentioned the word death threats on the Daily Show. Yeah. When you did get onto the Daily Show, which was a real first for a show

like that, it didn't go so well at first. Oh yeah, it was terrible. I didn't realize this. I was looking at the stats and I read that there was... It was absolutely terrible. It was like, man, it was, you know, when they say be careful what you wish for, because I was like, oh, I'd love a challenge, and this will be an interesting, and oh, it was a challenge. It was absolutely terrible, because I stepped into a role that I quickly learned wasn't just a position,

but it was almost, it was almost, I don't know how, like it was like a post in a way. It wasn't just like you're hosting a show. No, no. I very quickly learned like John Stewart to many people, you know, he was the most trusted man in America and he was the voice of a generation and he, you know, the politicians who sort of look to him and they're like, well, what would John Stewart think? And wow, I mean, that was, and even if you remove the legend that is Jon Stewart's,

just taking over any show comes with a moment where people don't like, no one likes change. So like when Johnny Carson handed over, people weren't happy. When Leno handed over, people weren't happy. It always happens. Is race an element in this? I'm sure for some people, but I think it's, you know, I'm careful to say like it's about race and I think it's

more it's all the things that make you different. You know, so me being different in my color to Jon Stewart probably makes a person feel like I'm more different to him when I'm sitting in the desk. The show has changed. The show has been really changed. Yeah. And that I love, if there's one thing I love, it's understanding or trying to understand human beings.

Because I think we're very complicated, but we're also simple at the same time. And that was a wonderful moment for me to like learn, like wow, even people, because these people who are hating, by the way, it's not like these were conservatives or anything. It was like liberal people who are, you know, and some of the things they were saying to me in emails or like online. They were emailing you. Yeah, yeah, yeah, oh yeah, people, they'll find ways. But you, I would sit there and be like,

wow, you really hate me. I've done nothing to you, but you hate me. But then I realized, no, you hate the idea of me and you hate what I've done to your world. I'm the representative, I'm the idea of how your world has changed. Here's this idea that you've loved to your world. I'm the representative, I'm the idea of how your world has changed. Here's this idea that you've loved John Stewart. He's now gone and I am the reason he's gone. Even though that's not the case, I am the reason he's gone. And because I'm the reason

he's gone, you are now angry. Death threats. Oh yeah, but I mean, that was extreme and you get that because the Daily Show is involved in politics, you know, or we comment on politics rather and And when we do that man, you know people would just be like you go back to where you came from you You know who how dare you and you're coming here and end with this and blah blah and blah blah Again, my gift and my curse was that I came from South Africa. So I know like top quality racism. So, you know from South Africa, so I know like top quality racism. So you know, like when I came to America and like people were saying these things to me,

I was like, oh, oh, I was like, okay, this is okay. It was interesting. You know, but it was really hard. And I'm lucky that I had the people I had making the show with me because they really, really, really taught me, or I learned from the experience, that you genuinely cannot choose what's going to happen to you, but you almost definitely can choose who you're going to handle it with. And that is the only thing that I now do in my life and it determines everything. I will take a shit job if I'm going to work with great people because a great job with

the worst people is not going to feel great on the other side of it, you know. And even thinking of it makes me happy. I think about the terrible times we had together in that building. You know, like reviewers hated us and people calling for the show to be canceled. And we were just like, they're commiserating, trying our best and doing our best. And now when people see it as a success story, they go like, oh, you won the Emmys and you, you know, and it was this and it was successful. And then the digital footprint of the show changed everything.

And all of a sudden, you know, these billions of impressions and whatnot. So yeah, that came afterwards. And now that's easy to see as an end product. But when we were in the trenches, there was none of that. What was, if I was a fly on the wall on the worst day in the trenches, is there a day that springs to mind? A day where you may be considered, reconsidered your decision, a day where you didn't want to get out of bed? I was reading the stats around this to give people context. The show had lost 700,000 viewers a night when you first took over.

Not every night, don't say it like that. No, no, no, you just made it sound like we lost them every night. It's from an interview you did in GQ. And by the 100th episode, it had lost 37% of its viewers. Listen, it went on to become a smash hit across this digital revolution. No, no, but you're right. But I think that's important to talk about. I think it's important context because I didn't know that.

I just watched the show. I saw it on social media and I thought, oh, he's killing it. Oh, no, man. No, it was a mission. Yeah, and there were many days. Again, I mean, I'm just so grateful and I'm so lucky. There were days where, I remember there was one day we like made a joke on the show. Not even on the show, no.

Someone on the team had tweeted something on the show account. And now there were like articles written about it and they were like, this is why Trevor Noah shouldn't be the, I wasn't even the person who tweeted. It's the show account. But I, you know, I'm not going to come up and be like, that's not me. We're a team, whatever. tweets. It's the show account. But I'm not going to come out and be like, that's not me. We're a team. Whatever. My name is on the show.

And I remember turning to one of the writers, Dan Amira, who's still the head writer at the show. And I said to Dan, I was like, man, I think I should just quit. I was like, it'll just be easier for all of you. Because you guys were having a great time. I come along. I've made your lives terrible. It's like, I should just quit, I should just go, you know?

And then I'll never forget Dan, he just looked at me and he's very dry, one of the funniest human beings you'll ever meet, really dry in his delivery. And he looks at me and he goes, but if you leave, this thing might get shut down and then I don't get lunch anymore." I said, I'm sorry, what? I'm like pouring my heart out here. And he's like, I like the lunch here.

I said, you can just, what? What are you talking about? And he said it to me in such a matter of fact way. And I remember being stunned and I looked at him and he said, how did he say it to me again? I don't know the exact words but the sentiment was basically he said, he said these people don't like you, right? And I was like, yeah, clearly.

And he said, so if you leave, are they going to like you? And I was like, no. Then he's like, so if leaving won't make them like you and staying won't make them like you, why not just stay? He's like, because I like working with you. So just stay. And that was just like one of those many moments where, you know, you talk about millimeters. It was just him saying to me, just stay.

Just stay. And I stayed. And now everything seems obvious, but that building was full of people who told me to just stay. That building was full of people who were like, I know. One of them was John Stewart. Like, I'll never forget, like John, one of the best things he ever did for me was, it's almost like he predicted this.

That's why I call him Yoda. I call him my Jewish Yoda, you know, Because we have this relationship where it's like I came into this order where I was learning this new thing called the force and being a Jedi and it seemed impossible and he was this ordained figure in a way. But I remember he called me into his office one day and he said to me, he said, I want to show you something. And he showed me an article that someone had written about him leaving the show, like he was, you know, because this was just before he left.

And the article was like, why John Stewart cannot leave the show and why America needs him and why John Stewart has to, and it was just this effusive article about like the 10 ways that John Stewart is the heart of American politics. He cannot leave. And John showed me that and he's like, huh? And John's like, doesn't take himself seriously at all. So John was like, huh? And I was like, yeah. And he's like, huh?

Huh? And I'm like, yeah, congrats. I mean, you crushed it. He's like, no, no, I crushed it. I'm important to America. And we laughed. And then he goes, hold on now. And he types something in, and then he pulls up an article from like years ago,

years and years and years ago, but it was like not, wait, it wasn't that far. It was like three years prior, or two years prior. So he was like at his prime, but it was like two, three years before that. And it was like, why John Stewart needs to leave The Daily Show? It's over for him.

He's the worst of America. He's not good for this country. It was this whole article article just slamming him. And he's like, you see? And I was like, oh yeah, I guess things can... He's like, no, no, no, you're not looking at the right thing. And he's like, look who wrote it. And it was the same journalist. So when John was in, they were like, this guy needs to leave. And then when John was leaving, they were like, oh, this guy needs to stay. And he looked at me and he said to me, please understand that to me, he said to many people, I have always been obvious, but he said I know my road and I wasn't. And he wasn't. You know, when John took over the show, Craig Kilbourne had been the previous host, people thought John couldn't do it. If you said that today, people would

burn you at a stake. Like, are you crazy? What do you mean John Stewart can't do it? That's what people said about him. And he was one of those people who said to me, he's like, hey, man, I've been there and maybe people don't remember it because it was like pre-internet. But he was like, put your head down and this is part of the journey. And I leaned on him, I leaned on the other people and it was just like a slow, boring slog filled with many funny and sad moments. And then one day it seems obvious to people from the outside.

And when you go home on those days and you're alone in your apartment or at home in your house and you're not around the guy that wants the lunch and the colleagues at work, what is that like? I read that you're someone that suffered with depression periodically throughout your life, throughout your life as well. Were you suffering in that period when you were alone? I didn't realize at the time that the depression that I was suffering from was ADHD depression. It wasn't like depression, depression. And I've learned since that there's a difference.

So I related to many ideas in and around depression, but I remember being confused because I was like, I'm not depressed perpetually, but I definitely experienced these moments. I didn't know that ADHD can do that to you. I didn't know that it can be like a byproduct of untreated ADHD and not knowing that you have ADHD. So that's just like a footnote there. But it's funny you say that when you went home and you see I wasn't alone and that's probably the reason I survived.

So David was with me every single day. He had moved from South Africa. We started at like a comedy night together. That's how long we had been working together. So we would walk out of that building together on the hottest nights in New York and on the coldest nights in New York. And we would go back and we lived together in the same apartment. And then we'd open like our notebooks and we'd be like, all right, what could we have

done better? And we would just sit there and we'd be like, what could we have done better? And we'd get home at like eight or nine p.m. and then we'd work until midnight, go to bed, get back to the office at seven, eight the next day and do it all over again. And then we'd come home in the evening and be like, what were the wins? What could we have done better? And we would and do it all over again. And then we'd come home in the evening and be like, what were the wins? What could we have done better? And we would just do this over and over. But I was never alone.

And so I never think of it, you know, that's what I wish like more people would share their stories in that way is because I think we live in a world where so many people sell an idea of perseverance as an individualistic pursuit, when it's not. I think too many people forget the pats on the back and the hugs and the encouragements and the load liftings. They forget all of it. They see their suffering, they see their success, and then they go out and sell to the world how you got to persevere. Let me tell you what,

in the darkest times, let me tell you what I did, Steve and I looked at myself in the mirror and I said, Trevor, you're going to do it, Trevor. You're going to be the man at the Daily Show. You're going to... Yeah, but everyone forgets. They're like, no, your friend was there going like, do you want to go get some chicken wings? Let's go get some chicken wings. There was somebody accepting you despite your failure.

There was somebody who was reminding you of that part of you that you always wish to be, which is somebody who can solve a puzzle, is somebody who enjoys what they're doing, is somebody who is reminding you of that part of you that you always wish to be, which is somebody who can solve a puzzle, is somebody who enjoys what they're doing, is somebody who perseveres. But they're there looking at that side of me. And so I wasn't alone. It was me, it was David, it was Joseph Opo, guy who was random, is now one of my best friends,

a writer from Uganda who did the Daily Show, like a version of the Daily Show in Uganda. What a, like, this weird world coming together. You meet us today, you'll think we've known each other our whole lives. But he was also, he was just there and he's like, I believe in us. He's like, I think we can do this. I think we can do it. I think we can do it.

And... But if you were going home alone... Oh, then I wouldn't be here with you. I will put all my money on that. I would not be here with you. I don't even think I would have taken the Daily Show. I wouldn't have my money on that. I would not be here with you. I don't even think I would have taken The Daily Show. I wouldn't have done The Daily Show. When you say you wouldn't be here with me, what do you mean by that?

You wouldn't be calling me here to have an interview with me because I wouldn't have done the things that I've done. Because I couldn't have done them alone. Because nobody could have done them alone. Nobody has done the things they've done alone. You know? Like, everyone, I've seen people tell these stories of climbing Mount Everest and my ascent and my... Yo, all those Sherpas that went with you.

Let's talk about them. No one's climbing Everest alone. No one's discovering, you know, the South Pole alone. No, you weren't. In fact, the person who was the guy who just like just like first navigated the South Pole was led there by somebody. You know what I mean? All these stories that we tell, self-made. Oh, I love that phrase. It's my favorite. Self-made billionaire. Oh, really? Oh, it's an interesting choice of words. So you just did this all by yourself.

You made the thing by yourself with your hands. You made many more of them by yourself. You drove the trucks. You thought of all the ideas. You put it in the stores. You gave it to the people. You took the money. You invested it.

You grew it all by yourself. All by yourself. All the ideas were from your head, all by yourself. And then you got there. Come on. There's no such thing. And I don't think it diminishes your achievement. I just think it's important because it helps people understand that they need other people

to get to where they're trying to get to. And maybe sometimes the reason you're not experiencing that is because you're trying to do it alone. I hear people all the time go like, I'm going to put my head down and I'm going to crush it. Okay, alone? Good luck. Good luck. And I think it creates an unrealistic expectation for people.

People who studied together in school got better marks. It was just like a simple thing that we learned in our school when I was growing up. If you had a study partner, you just learned more. The idea of the Sherpas is such a good analogy because the Sherpas never really get the credit in the story. They're never mentioned in the article, but they're lifting most of the bloody weight and they're literally keeping you alive. They've ascended Everest more than the most celebrated Everest ascender.

How are they not the ones? It's the equivalent of finding out that somebody ran carrying Usain Bolt, but then we don't consider them the fastest man alive. And so I don't know. So I'm always cautious to think of that because it doesn't diminish what you've done. But man, you're not doing it alone. And to realize that I think helps you to understand why it's important to have those people and why it then brings joy.

Why did you leave The Daily Show? Because the moment you left The Daily Show, you'd won these huge awards. The show had caused this sort of digital revolution, which we hadn't seen before. The Daily Show had become, from my experience of The Daily Show, was much more of an online show than it had ever been before. Most of the time I watched The Daily Show, I'd be watching it on YouTube or I'd be watching it on clips that were going around the internet and the billions and billions of views it was doing at that point. Why would someone leave that situation?

I don't know why someone would leave it. Why did you leave it? Because it was time. It was just time. How do you know? I don't know. That's something I've always felt I've known in life. And I don't know why. Like the fight? Yeah.

But not in a negative way. This is more... Okay, so here's the thing. I think part of it comes from where I am from. And maybe you'll relate to this as somebody from the UK. In South Africa, TV shows end. We've never had a TV show, except maybe like one soap opera, but we've never, TV shows end. We've never had a TV show, except maybe like one soap opera, but we've never had TV shows that run for 10 seasons or 20 seasons.

That's not a thing. It ends. And it doesn't end because it's bad. It ends. It just ends. And I look at some of my favorite creators of things, you know, like I look at like Seinfeld. They were like, all right, it's done. The network was like, we can give you more, we can do more.

They're like, yeah, but we, it's done. We just feel like it's done. You know? Sometimes things can be done. And for me, I think there were multiple reasons, you know. One was definitely the pandemic. I took for granted that the pandemic was a moment where many people were forced to be at home, but then the silver lining of that terrible period for many people was that they

got to just pause for a moment. Many people will tell you the story of how they're like, man, during the pandemic, I just like paused and I, you know, we didn't, I didn't. And I was making the show from home and I was just going at it. And I'm really glad and I'm lucky that I got to do that because it sort of shielded me from some of the panic that came with the pandemic of what are you doing?

What are you not doing? Where's life going? I was just like, I'm just doing my show. I'm just doing the show. I'm doing the show, I'm doing the show. Find a way to do it from home. Shoot it using iPhones. We didn't even have like cameras,

we didn't have a crew, we didn't have anyone. It was just me, David, because he lived in the same building, and then the other David, and it was just three people, you know, physically making a thing that's supposed to take many, many, many people, you know? But here you are and you're doing this,

but you're virtual and you're not in the same room as people and you can't travel. And I was experiencing all of this. I couldn't go back to South Africa. I couldn't travel the world. I couldn't. And one of the big things I learned during the pandemic was I had made my life about work and I had made everything else secondary. So I would see my friends if I did not have work.

I would travel with my friends if I did not have work. I would come to your wedding if I did not have work. But work was the thing. And everyone in my life knew this. They were like, oh yeah, work. Trevor, if you're not working, can you... They'd almost say that to me. Trevor, if you're not working, can you? They'd almost say that to me. And on the other side of the pandemic, I realized I can do the Daily Show. I looked up and I was like, wow, it's been eight years of me being at the Daily Show. Seven years of me hosting, one year of me being a contributor at times when John Stewart was there.

But I was like, you sort of can do this forever, but maybe, what else can you do? Where else can you be? How can you spend your time? What would you like to do and how would you like to do it? I learned so many things at The Daily Show. I'm eternally grateful for them. But I also would like to learn more things. Even in the years that I haven't been there, I've relearned and re-remembered that politics

isn't a binary. It's not blue and red. That's an illusion. There aren't two ideas for every problem. That's fake. There are a multitude of ways to discuss any issue and any topic. But if you stay in one place for long enough, then in a good way and in a bad way, you start to perceive that as reality. And so, you know, there were many

things when it came to me leaving The Daily Show, but I just felt like, yeah, it's time. You know, I'm scared. Scared? Of? Of, sometimes people get scared when they have such a high post in society, that they might be losing something they could never get back, or they might, you know, it could- Oh, that's fascinating. I think about the average person listening to this now who's in their job, and they might be a lawyer who's climbed the ladder.

And they've got this sort of internal voice saying something isn't right here, but this fear that keeps them trapped in place is the loss aversion. Even if you're miserable, the power of loss aversion can just hold people in place. I read this crazy study with Dr. Daniel Kahneman, I believe it was, Daniel Kahneman, the famous, he was going, he did the studies where if you drop like a dollar on the floor, the pain of losing the dollar is equal did the studies where if you drop like a dollar on the floor, the pain of losing the dollar is equal to the pain of finding three. So in life, you don't just need equal reward to sacrifice something, you need two or three times the reward to leave.

Well, I will say this. First and foremost, I was lucky. I wasn't miserable. I didn't have like a, I hate this or I, no. But I did want to turn and focus my life on something more. More? Yeah, like I want to spend more time with my loved ones. I wanted to spend more time with my people.

I wanted to spend more time in South Africa. I wanted to spend more time learning other languages and traveling. I wanted to spend more time practicing comedy in other countries. Was that a feeling? Yeah. And what is that feeling? Because I'm trying to understand the feeling or the emotion that tells you that. So I guess it goes to the now sort of cliche, but still I think very apt phrase, you don't know what you've got till it's gone. The pandemic showed me like all the things, I even talk about this for people, it showed

me all the things that I didn't value that I should have. Like when the pandemic hits, if we're honest, we didn't care that we couldn't go to the movies or we couldn't, like it's not about the stuff. It's that we couldn't do it with movies or we couldn't, like, it's not about the stuff. It's that we couldn't do it with our people. You couldn't see your friends. You couldn't be with other human beings. You couldn't be in a space together where people are cheering or singing or laughing

or you couldn't be with people. And I don't know about you, but during the pandemic, I wasn't sitting there thinking to myself, oh, I work. Work is the thing I could do more of. No, I was thinking to myself, wow, my people. All my friends that are South African were trapped in South Africa, couldn't leave, couldn't come to me, I couldn't go to them, couldn't see my family.

And I wasn't even big on that. It's not even like I was like, I've always got to go home to see my family. I'll just go when I'll go but now I realized like wow This this is just again. It's fleeting and you and I had to ask myself Trevor What are you trying to achieve in your life? Where do you want it to go? Where do you want it to end? You know, what's more important to you? The ratings on the success of this show and this idea or the ratings and the success of this show and this idea

or the ratings and the success of your friendships and your relationships? And I do think in life you have to let go of something old to grab onto something new. And that was a decision for me that because I can't be in two places at once and the Daily Show is all consuming, you cannot be sort you know, sort of part-time in it as an idea. You know, in fact, John and I joke now, now he gets to do it weekly. And I think if anything, he'd never go back to doing it daily because he knows how all consuming it can be.

Like I didn't just do the Daily Show when I was there. I would do the Daily Show when I was there. And then I would leave and I would read the news and I'd keep up with the news and I would try and keep up with all the news and I'm reading The Guardian and I'm reading BBC and then I'm reading like right-wing sites, I'm reading Breitbart and I'm reading what's on conservative media and then I'm reading The Telegraph and The Economist and that's all I'm doing, consuming news, news, news, news, news, news, news, get more news, get more news.

Barely read a fiction book in years, it's like more news, I need information and news, news, news, news, news, news, get more news, get more news. Barely read a fiction book in years. More news. I need information and news. Okay, economists, analysis, what's happening? How do I put this together? What's happening? Al Jazeera. Okay, okay, think about that. What's going on in the times of India? What's happening? What's happening? What's happening? What's happening? It's a lot. Yeah. It's too much. It's a lot in the brain. It's too much.

Especially for someone with your brain, if I say so myself, from how you've described it, someone who's so sort of hypersensitive and aware, and someone who appears to me to be a little bit of an empath. You said when we said you're going to feel things. Yeah. You know what it did teach me, and this is something I tell everyone until this day, give yourself a break from the news. Give yourself a break from the news. Give yourself a break. We've been told and we've been conditioned to believe that we all need to keep up with the news.

It's a lie, it's an illusion. You'll know what's happening. In fact, if you read the news once a week, I promise you you will be as informed as somebody who's reading it every single day. You know why? Because when you're reading it every day, you are caught in the cycle of it trying to

discover what it doesn't know yet. Developing story, developing story, developing story. You'll be shocked at what you learn when you just read a story that sort of had the time that it needed to breathe. There's less predicting, there's less guessing, there's less pontificating. It's just like this is what happened and this is what we know and that's it. When was the first time you went to therapy? First time I went to therapy was 2015, 2014, somewhere there.

Why did you go to therapy? I asked this because for a set of reasons really, but men in particular, and in fact, if you look at the stats, men of colour are often the least likely to go to therapy. And there's a complex reasons why that is, but I think it's quite important for men that have been to therapy, including myself, to talk about why they went and also sort of the journey they've been on with it, but also the role that it's played. So I'll say it in two parts. So I went to therapy because I fell in love with the idea that I could learn more about myself and why I was the way I was from somebody who was skilled in understanding it.

In the same way that I loved physical therapy, you know, I was like wow, you can like move your body differently. If you've ever had physical therapy, you know what I'm talking about and if you haven't, you should go one day if you have anything wrong with you, long before you consider surgery and things. You'll be shocked. You'll be shocked at how your neck hasn't been moving the way it's supposed to. You'll be shocked to realize that your back has been like stuck for a while.

You haven't been breathing. You'll find that your knees haven't been… You say that. No, but really, it's actually crazy to realize how much over time you've settled into a restriction that's stopping you from being yourself fully, physically, but mentally as well. Patterns, and as you said, games of snap, where you don't even realize you're now just reacting.

Things are happening and you're reacting to them. And I read a bunch of books, I was like, wow, this is fascinating. But I was like, none of it tells me about me, per se. It's very broad. And so I decided, let me go to this place to try and learn about who I am, or if there's even a puzzle that I can learn a little bit more about. How did that feel the first time you went, but also telling your friends that you're going to therapy?

Because especially in 2015, it's kind of fallen away slowly as more people talk about it. But there is a stigma associated with it. And that stigma is also... Well, everyone asked me, they said, why? What's wrong? That's what everyone said to me. Everyone said the same thing. What's wrong?

One of my favorite ones, this wasn't a friend, but I did an interview with a British newspaper. I forget which one it's called. Maybe it's The Telegraph, I'm not sure. It's slightly conservative. But anyway, we did this interview. I'll never forget this. And the woman, very British, very posh, you know, older woman. And she said to me, she's like, you've been quite outspoken about going to therapy.

And do you still go to therapy? And I was like, yes. And she's like, why? What's wrong with you? And I said, do you not go to therapy? And she said, I don't need to. And I was like, well, everyone can benefit from therapy. And she's like, I respectfully disagree.

I think the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the

the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the

the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the What are you doing? What I've come to realize is that therapy as an idea holds a stigma, but the thing that it is doing is not just necessary, but it's actually welcomed by everybody. When you go and you have a conversation with your friends and you commiserate about something that's going on in your life. It's a form of therapy. You know?

When you confide in your loved one, the two of you are in bed at the end of a long day and you're telling them about how stressful your job is and you're telling them about your doubts about staying in it or not. That's a form of therapy. And I think because we've given it this formalized title that's associated with like psychotic breaks on the most extreme things, we've now made it seem like it's reserved for people who are only like broken, broken, broken. But we've forgotten how necessary it is.

Like you go around the world and you see cultures, many of them, cultures of color had the idea and the tradition of therapy long before it was formalized as a concept. In African cultures, you would speak to the elders. That's what you do. You go and you sit down with the elders, you tell them about your problems, you go there with your wife, you go there with your family, you go any dispute, you go and talk about it there. And they give you their advice and it's based on generations of knowledge and it's based on a communal understanding of who you are and who they are.

They've known you since you were a child even. It's a form of therapy. So I think because we've given it this, like the label, people, I go to therapy. I've realized if you just change that, take that sentence out and tell it to somebody and go, oh yeah, no, there's a wonderful elder who I speak to and they give me advice. All of a sudden, half the people who look at you funny will be like, that's very good. You must listen to your elders.

That's very good. And then in another culture, you say to somebody, oh, I go to somebody who spiritually understands how my brain works and they connect me with myself. They'll be like, that's very good. You do that. We all do it. Bartenders have been therapists for hundreds of years. People have gone and gotten drunk at a bar.

Hairdresses. Hairdresses. It's a natural thing. It's just I understand the stigma because there's a terrifying notion that comes with saying that you're broken. But I don't think it's about saying that we're broken. It's just about understanding our cracks.

Did you understand your cracks from it? I think I understood them theoretically. My problem was never understanding them on an intellectual level. I think I've always been good at that, maybe even too good. The thing I've had to learn in therapy is the feeling part, not the thinking part. What do you mean by the feeling part? So I've always been very good. I would be able to break down any situation to you as thoughts and analytics in a way.

You go like, Trevor, what happened there? I would even be able to explain like an outburst. Well, what happened was clearly over time this action had been repeated and I didn't appreciate it. And so at that point I'd reached my breaking point and I reacted like this. But I didn't realize until I went to therapy that I limited how much I was saying the feeling that I was having. I felt sad. I felt mad. I

felt. And then like you said about tracing it back, you then now, once you understand that feeling, and once you acknowledge it, you're then able to now, and then even ask yourself, why do I feel this thing? Why do I even feel? And start realizing that some people can make you feel when others can't. Two people can say the exact same sentence to you. Only one can have an effect. Why? And that was and continues to be my journey and my joyous challenge. It's like learning how to feel, not just think through everything. It's like really just feel. How do I feel? Oh, I'm tired. Oh, I'm resentful.

Wow. I'm sad about that. Oh, I'm feeling a little hopeless. Wow. This feels a little melancholic. This is like really getting into those feelings. Men don't do that, do they? They just go?

Yeah, no. Just drink or they just go? Yeah. Men just get like pissed. Masturbate, gamble. Yeah. Porn. Yeah. It's like, yeah. Masturbate, gamble, porn. Yeah. I'm angry at you.

When was the last time a male friend looked at another male friend and said, you hurt me? You know? Hey man, that hurts. I know you think my haircut looked funny, but the way you said it in front of those other people, it hurts. Hey, the way you commented on my job and how you think it's the dumbest thing, that hurt me.

Like it hurt me because I love how you see me and I want to see myself being special in your life and I felt insignificant. You hurt me, man. Men are terrified of that. And so we'd rather say, you pissed me off. Punch you in the head. Because that's acceptable in society. You said your therapist or therapy helped you to identify this link between ADHD and

depression. When did you find out you had ADHD? I got diagnosed two years ago. My friend got diagnosed first, told me about it, changed his whole life. And then when he was describing some of the symptoms, I was like, huh. I was like, well, that's weird. That sounds a lot like me. And we're very different personality-wise. And then I asked him, I said, I don't understand. I've never noticed these things in you.

And he was like, yeah, he was very good at hiding them. He was very good at masking them. And it hit home so much that it made me think I need to get diagnosed. I was like, let me go and see. It might not be, but let me go and find out. And then I remembered that when I was a kid, my school told my mom that I need to go for psychiatric evaluation because when I was really young, the teachers complained. They said I was just all over the place.

And my mom took me to a psychiatrist. And the psychiatrist diagnosed me with ADHD, but back then it was called hyperactivity. And my mom, the therapist was like, oh, your son has ADHD or is hyperactive. And so you must stay away from these foods and must do this and you must do that and you could give him treatment. And my mom was like, we'll pray for him. Let's keep it moving. She just didn't know and she was like, no, this is not a thing.

And then I, now as an adult, went, wait a minute, was that what that was? And then I went through the real assessment, not like an online quiz, the one where you sit down, it's multiple visits, you do different types of tests, multimodal tests, and you go through it all. And then I learned about my ADHD. And I think that's another thing I'm a little worried about now in society. It's just like when we talk about therapy and AI and everything, we flatten these words. And so what then starts to happen is now I meet people everywhere.

Everyone's going like, I've got ADHD. I've got ADHD. I've got, I can't watch a movie for more than 10 minutes. I've got ADHD. I lost my keys. Yeah. And it's like, no, you can be forgetful and not have ADHD. You can have a short retention span and not have ADHD.

You can be many things and not have ADHD, right? But even when you have ADHD, you don't all have the same ADHD. Some people are inattentive, some people are hyperactive, some people have learned coping mechanisms, some people haven't. In women and men, it presents differently at times. So I think we must also be careful. You know, like now it's just become like, and then like on TikTok, hey, how to deal with your ADHD.

And it's like, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Let's, you know, it's good that we're talking about these things, but let's not be quick to, you know, to all have it and have the same version of it and all think that all of our treatments are exactly the same, et cetera. But that, yeah, that's, so I think mine was, I think it's now three, four years ago.

This link between ADHD and depression, you're the first person I've interviewed, I've heard about this before, but you're the first person that I've spoken to who has said that their depression was linked to their ADHD. Can you explain to me the link and how that sort of manifests? So I didn't understand it, but you know, as I understand ADHD now, what fundamentally happened in my brain, and I guess it'll happen to some people as well, is I would have an inability to choose where to place my focus, right? One of the things. So I would either be hyper-focused by something that I shouldn't, or I would have no focus

for the thing that I should. So I could be having a conversation with you here, and let's say there was a car outside revving its engine. At some point, that's all I'd be able to think about, even though you're speaking to me. That's all I'd be able to think about is like, who's revving this engine? Who's driving this car? What is going on out there? What kind of car is that? Sounds like a V6.

Is that a truck? What are they, huh? Something wrong? No, it's, and now you'd be talking, and then at the end of the sentence, I'll just hear the last three words you said, and then I'll try and like, put it all together and act like I was paying attention.

But what my brain was also doing in that paying attention thing was it was focusing on a Recurring thought or recurring idea that I couldn't let go of and that's sometimes where the depression would kick in Is that I would be perpetually stuck in a loop of either? Meaninglessness or what I like to call personally, it's like my zoom was stuck on my lens. You know, like I think the way you see life is literally like a lens. I shouldn't have done it with my hands in this video. That's going to be-

We can photoshop it. Yeah, just going to meme that. But anyway, like I think of a lens, right? And what you're doing with a lens all the time when you're getting focused when you're zooming is you're trying to place your focus on the object that you're trying to place it on. If you zoom out too wide, you can't see the object. If you zoom in too much, you also can't see the object. You've got to find the right zoom so that you know, okay, we're now looking at a cup. If you zoom in too much, you just go like, I'm looking

at a silver, I'm looking at a color. You zoom out too much, you can't even see that we're in this room. I'm looking at people. You're like, no, there's a cup. Oh, I didn't see it. And so what was happening in my brain was I would get stuck in a zoom and I would just loop. So sometimes it would be me going, huh, that was an interesting day at work. Oh, I go to work tomorrow.

Then I go to work the next day. Then the next day. And then the next day. Then there's a weekend. But then I'm back at work. Then there's, wait a minute, it's just weeks and weekends forever. This never, it just keeps on going. And then, and then one day you're like, you're 90 and then, and then you're dead. And wait, what, why am I going to work tomorrow? What's the point of, what is happening here? This makes absolutely no sense. And then I'll just and wait, why am I going to work tomorrow? What's the point of... What is happening here? This makes absolutely no sense. And then I'll just sit there and I couldn't get that out of my head.

I literally could not get that thought out of my head. And I would just sit there like, what is the point of this? What are we doing? Couldn't get it out of my head. And how does that feel when you can't get that out of your head? What is the feeling? For me, it felt like life was meaningless. Like the concept of it was meaningless.

I was like, we're a blip. What are we doing here? All of this means nothing. All of this is pointless. Is that an exact example of something that would make you... Yeah, no, this is an exact example. This is something that would get stuck in my head. Because I didn't know with ADHD that I was

hyper-focusing on this thing. So in the same way that I could hyper-focus on learning about, I don't know, a discipline, industrial design or artificial intelligence, I would just, you know what I'm talking about with that. I'd get hyper-focused, and then I'd learn everything about it. And I'd read every book, and I'd talk to every person I could, and I would watch everything. And all of a sudden, in like three months, you'd get hyper-focused, and then I'd learn everything about it, and I'd read every book, and I'd talk to every person I could, and I would watch everything.

And all of a sudden, in like three months, you'd meet me, and I'd go like, yep, I've read that book, I've read that book, I've read that book, and I'm obsessed with this thing. And then one day it just disappears. Now, that's fine for learning, let's say, but it would be terrible for an idea of sadness or an idea of feeling like life is going nowhere or... It can't be good for big famous. It's like the worst thing for being famous because you have constant like meaningless feedback in the brain is trying to interpret a lot of it. Exactly. If you get one of those things stuck in your head,

gosh. Yeah. And then mine also like, it depends, some people have it, some don't, but like pattern recognition, people with ADHD generally can be very good with pattern recognition. Probably one of the good comedians. And so what happens then, unfortunately, is you can also start to see the patterns in life that can make life seem meaningless. But once I got my ADHD diagnosis and once I understood what was happening, I really did start to see it as a lens. And anytime I find myself in those moments now, because I don't take medication, you

know, I took medication like once or twice. I was like, it didn't help me in my comedy. I actually need to be erratic and unfocused when I'm doing comedy. And I'm lucky that I live a life where I don't have to be in an office at a time and do a thing in a certain way. But in coping or in learning how to deal with it, I've learned just about that lens and I'll talk to myself. I go, there's me and there's the observer.

I'm the observer of my thoughts. I'm not the thoughts. And then I'll talk to myself. So I'll be like, man, you do this tomorrow and then the next day and then life is me. Then I go like, it is, it is meaningless unless you zoom in. And then if you zoom in a little bit more, all of a sudden, wow, it's almost like the most meaningful thing. This conversation with this person is the most meaningful conversation you will ever have in your life. This is it. This is everything that it is. This hug that you're getting from your friend is the most important thing you will ever

experience. This meal that you're having, just taste these ingredients. What is taste? Feel it on your taste buds. And like one of the tools they teach you like with ADHD sometimes, you know, when it makes you go into anxiety or depression, is to just notice things. Practice being present. Walk down the street and like look, like really look and say out loud what you're seeing.

And at first it's very stupid. That is a red door. That is a green roof. That is a pigeon sitting on the gutter. That is a gutter. That is a gray car that is driven by. And you'll be shocked at how just doing that gets your brain out of that loop.

And then something's gonna catch your eye or something will spark. And by the end of that walk, you won't be in the mood that you were in when you started that walk. Did you ever feel hopeless when you spiraled into this sort of rumination? Was there ever a moment through this journey

of understanding your depression that you felt hopeless? I didn't, I didn't. This is going to sound really weird to you. I have this strange thing that'll happen to me sometimes in life where I feel like it's all meaningless and it's nothing and it's whatever. It's very, very random. Oftentimes I've just learned sometimes it's fatigue. I've learned rules now for myself and for anyone out there really, especially if you

have ADHD. Before you go through anything or before you think about anything intently and intensely when you're struggling, ask yourself a few simple questions. Have you slept? Have you eaten well? Have you eaten good food? Have you moved your body? And have you spent a little time breathing?

If you answer yes to all of those questions, you can continue to pontificate about the meaning of life and everything that you're going through. If you have not, just fulfill all of them and then see if you're still feeling the same on the other side and you'll be shocked how often times you aren't. So the one thing that would happen to me, this is so ridiculous I know, sometimes when I'd be in that place, I'd feel a little hopeless. And I would think to myself, I hate this, this sucks. I don't know what I want to do with life anymore.

Never like suicidal, but just like I just don't know if this life thing, what is this? And then I would go, if it was going to end tomorrow, then what would I do like today then? I'd be like, you know what I'm going to do? I'm going to go on stage. I'm going to tell that joke that I've been terrified to tell. I'm just going to say it because I'm leaving anyway. Life is ending.

It's going, it's all going away because it's all going to shit, right? Just go and say that. Go tell a joke. I'll be like, you know what I should also do? I should also throw a party. I mean, life's ending anyway. Just throw like one, just like one, just like fuck off party that you just like go into it and I think of all the things and I mean this genuinely. I think of all the things that I would do with like giant middle fingers on my way out. And the smile that it brings to my face, I can't explain to you because every time it makes me realize that that's all I should be trying to do. Not in a way

where I don't consider other people, but it's what I should be trying to do. And it's made me realize that at times, not everyone, but for me, and I think some people would probably feel this, sometimes what's happened in our lives, and I know I had this, is like you feel like you don't realize that you've stopped sort of like running, jumping, smiling, screaming. You've stopped being everything you can be. And you've just, you've started existing as one version of yourself. And sometimes just having the idea of just like, you know what I mean, take all your clothes off and run through the streets screaming and what would you say and who would you say it to

and why would you say it? You'd say it to and why would you say? You'd be shocked at how that gives you an inkling of what you're not doing for yourself. Some people might be like, I'll tell my dad to go screw himself. I would say to you, oh, this is probably you realizing that you don't set boundaries with your dad and you don't communicate well. Maybe you don't tell your dad how you hurt your feelings. Man, I'll go to work and I'll – yeah, maybe this is not the job for you, you know? I'll party all night.

Maybe you're not taking enough time to have fun. You'll be shocked at how like sometimes you're, not a tantrum, but it's just like your screw you choice is what you sort of should be doing in a responsible way. And that, I promise you now, in all those moments where I felt like it's hopeless, were the moments where I'd come back even more. I think to myself, huh, maybe I should try aiming

to get to that place. And therein in a strange way lies the meaning for me. It's such a beautiful thing that there can be really important answers in such a desperate state but I completely understand what you're saying because I played out the example in my head that this was my last day and I thought what are the things I'd love to do? And again it's so clear to me that those are the things that I'm missing right now from my life, my experience.

You mentioned dads in there and you did reunite with your biological father. Sort of 24 years old, 25 years old when you reunited with him, I believe? Yeah, 20 something, somewhere there. What's that like? Is that complicated or is that- Oh, definitely. Definitely. And why did you reunite with him?

Well, I reunited with him because my mother gave me a key piece of advice which was valuable and she said to me, she said, don't take for granted the answers that a person can hold of you that you may not even know you needed for yourself. And I think parents have that with us, especially if parents are willing to engage with you. These are human beings that have fundamentally shaped you. You are half of them. You are half of them, you know, they are half of you. It's a weird thing that you can take for granted. And so, for me, like the gift of reconnecting with my father was reconnecting with him as

a man, a young man, albeit a man. Were you scared? Scared isn't the right word. I was unsure, but I wasn't scared. It's like, it's that feeling of the unknown. What's going to happen? What are we like? Will we get along?

Will we not get along? I remember him, but as a boy, does he even remember me? Does he even like me? You have all these ideas. Is there a part of you that wants to know if he loves you? If he cares about you? I think definitely. But I think we don't even think of it like that and I didn't even think of it like that. Does that make sense? Because I assumed the love because I'd seen it my whole life from him. So I assumed the love but I didn't, I think the thing that's adjacent to that love is the choosing.

Sometimes you assume that parents love you, but you're not sure that they choose you maybe. And so that was interesting for me. And then seeing parts of myself that I didn't even know came from another person. It's fascinating, frustrating, and liberating at the same time. Mason- Although he wasn't around all the time, did you learn lessons from him when you met him, when you started to rekindle your relationship with him? Anand- I think I did, but not lessons that were taught, lessons that were witnessed. I think most of the lessons that we learned from our parents aren't taught, to be honest.

What did you learn from him? I definitely think from him I learned how important it is to maintain your friendships. He's lived a long life. He's older than my mom. But even as he's gone into his old age, he still has friends. He still has community. He showed me how wonderful that thing is. Because friendship, I feel like friendship has in many ways been given the short end

of the stick in the world of relationships. People understand the value of parents and You know, people understand the value of like parents and children and then people understand like romantic relationship. They go, oh, that's the most, of course, your spouse. But your friendships are one of the few relationships that don't necessarily rely on like a transaction in a way. It's like purely choice. Whenever I speak to entrepreneurs, there's one problem that always comes up. But today's sponsor, LinkedIn, has a solution. And I think you'll want to hear it. Connecting your business with the right audience can be tough. You can spend a lot of time and money trying to

get it right. And still, regardless, fall short of that. Especially when it comes to B2B marketing, where you're not doing business with one person, you're dealing with teams making decisions together. Through LinkedIn ads, you're dealing with teams making decisions together. Through LinkedIn ads, you can connect with an extensive professional network of over a billion members, including 10 million C-suite executives. You can also target specifically by job title, industry, company and more. It's no surprise to me that LinkedIn is reported to be the highest-returning paid social platform in the world. To help you get started, LinkedIn is offering $100 credit to returning paid social platform in the world. To help you get started, LinkedIn is offering a hundred dollar credit to launch your first

campaign on the platform. Just go to linkedin.com DOAC24 to claim your credit now. That's linkedin.com slash DOAC24. Terms and conditions apply. Patricia, she is so sens- she's your mother? Yeah. Patricia, she's your mother. She's so central to your story, to much of the wisdom you have. You talk about continuing the legacy of her legacy, I guess, and everything that she's instilled in you. She sounds like a superwoman in every sense of the word. The apparent resilience,

and I say apparent because I don't know how to define the perseverance in the face of so many struggles, other than using the word resilience, is astounding. I found, I won't show this picture either, but I found this beautiful photo of you, which reminded me a little bit of mine. Oh, that one you can't because I've posted it online. There you go. One of the things I've struggled with is with the disconnect between me and my parents is I've struggled with the thought

that there's going to be words unsaid. Oh. And I asked some of my guests about this because I think because I'm trying to navigate it in myself and within my own life. If you had a 60 second phone call with Patricia and you knew it was going to be your last, what would the words be? What would you choose to say? Oh, I think it would just be, I love you, I love you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, I love you, I love you, thank you so much, I love you. That's pretty, and genuinely that's pretty much it. Because I'm really lucky that I've said and I continue to try to say most of what I should to my mom.

And there's always new things that come up and then I try to say them and we have beautiful conversations. These days we take drives. Drive her to go and buy a new chicken for her. She's got a little chicken, it's not even a farm, I don't even know what to call it. It's like a little squad of chickens. But I'll just take her for a drive and then we just talk about life. We just talk and we share and we laugh.

But we spend like, it's like the nothing moments. No agenda, no like, there's no thing we have to do or not do. I sort of slip into her life. I find her in the garden and I just stand around while she does her gardening and then listen, talk, share. But really, if that was the call now, it would just be thank you, thank you. I love you so much. Thank you very much. I love you. I love you. Thank you so much. And I guess that early experience where she was shot by your... really kind of allowed

you to get the perspective... Yeah, yeah, definitely. ...before most of us would... Definitely. ...have the perspective. She sounds like a remarkable person. When you talk about continuing her legacy, how do you do that? Well, she would challenge me and say my goal is to improve on her legacy. My mom's definitely remarkable, but as she would say, by the grace of God. It's not by her hand alone.

And I think one of the things that I've loved most about my relationship with my mom is that I've come to learn that part of what makes her so exceptional is the fact that she's a flawed human being. She's not perfect. There are some wounds that she's inflicted on me that I need to now deal with in my life because she's been my parent, you know?

And this is sometimes the paradox that we struggle with in our lives as people, I think. We've been so indoctrinated into this like binary way of thinking that we then want to go, we had great parents or we had terrible parents. Sometimes you had a parent who was great at some things and terrible at other things. And if they did love you, they were doing their best. Sometimes they didn't, and I think that's tough for some people to acknowledge. But if they loved you, they were doing their best and they tried their best and they failed at other things, and that's fine.

But my goal and my dream is to, as my mom always said to me and my brothers, like, be better than the last. How are you thinking about fatherhood? Well, I go back and forth on it. Because on the one hand, sometimes I think, you see, it's like the zooming, the lens. Sometimes I think about, like, the planet and the world, and like, are you bringing kids? You're going to bring kids? And then I'm like, yeah, and the world and like are you bringing kids? You're gonna bring kids? No, I'm like yeah but the world's probably been terrible for everyone who's been in it at every single given time so is

that a reason to not have a child? And then I asked myself the other question I'm like okay but what do I think I'm bringing to this child and then I thought to myself do I want to have a kid with ADHD? How hard was that for them and what is it gonna be like? And then I'm like but maybe it'll be great because you know ADHD and maybe they'll have it and maybe they won't. So I go back and forth on all of these things. The one thing I would hope is that I will give my child two things that are important and that is number one, being chosen, and number two, being considered. I think a lot of people have children, but they may not choose them and they don't consider

them. And that's where you'll hear parents saying things like, I brought you into this world. It's like, yeah, exactly. So you should consider me a little bit more. Many parents treat children as if the children owe them for introducing them into existence, when I think it's the other way around. So yeah, I think to myself, I like the idea of it and I do like the puzzle of it. But just like I learned from The Daily Show and every other major undertaking, if I know

that it's going to be terrible, then I'll probably have a great time. But if I think that it's going to be rewarding and wonderful, I'm going to hate a lot of the moments in it. How does Romantica fit into all of this for you? Because you were, during those daily show days, working every hour of the day. You were fighting in every sense of the word to make this show a success. You're living in an apartment with a guy who's also doing the same. I don't know where it fits. I can't see it. It didn't, in many ways. And that was the price I paid.

Does it fit now? Yeah, I think it definitely does. I think it definitely does. It's a weird thing to say, but as I've become more comfortable with the notion that I could be not in a relationship forever, like, you know, as people say, by yourself, but I don't think of that because of friends and community. But as I've gotten more comfortable with that, I think I've become more able to be in a relationship because I think more and more I've thought of a relationship as something I can bring value to as opposed to the thing that's supposed

to just do everything for me. You know, and I think before I was only looking at it that way without realizing it. Trevor, these books are beautiful for so many different reasons. Born a Crime is one of the most, it's so funny because it's not my story, but it's everyone's story in so many ways.

And I think that's why it's such a beautiful book. It's the story of a guy who didn't feel like he fit in his relationship with his mother, his love for his mother, his journey to the very, very top of a mountain, and all of the important wisdom that he's learned along the way, that I think is so relatable even though it's not my story. And some books don't achieve that, but your books achieve that so well. And this book is the first time I've ever described a book as being truly, truly beautiful. It comes out on the 8th of October.

It's called Into the Uncut Grass. And it's so wise, powerful, but beautiful. A book that... And silly. I hope people remember that it's silly. I would love to read this to my kids, but it's funny because I thought... When I first opened it, I thought, okay, but it's funny because I thought when I first opened it, I thought, okay, you know, there's illustrations throughout the book. And then I started reading the words.

And you realize that it's both applicable and powerful to a young person, but also something you could read alone at my age of 32. It's such a beautiful book. Thank you. Very kind. It follows in the tradition of the Boy the Fox and the Mole. It's like, yeah, those books that I loved, you know, the Boy the Fox, the Little Prince, you know, there's so many books like that that I think inspired me to think about rediscovering

our childlike curiosity, ability to think beyond ourselves, our imagination. Like almost like re-remembering yourself before many of the hurts, you know, and then going from there. And so... And connection is such a prevalent theme throughout this, the journey of connection, of love and all of those things. And I'm going to link that below. Everyone needs to read that book. It's so beautiful. Read it for yourself, read it for your kids, read it with your partner. We have a closing tradition on this podcast where the last guest leaves a question for the next guest and not knowing who they're going to be leaving the question for.

Oh wow. Okay. Tell us about the lowest point of your life. How did you overcome it? What lessons did you learn from the experience? Hmm. Funny enough, I think we talked about it. I would safely say the lowest point of my life was my mother being shot. So it's crazy that we did speak about it. How did I overcome it? I don't think I would be so arrogant as to say that I have overcome it.

I think I'm constantly working to overcome it. Do you ever overcome these things? I don't know, to be honest with you. I really don't know. Because I, you know, it's strange because I don't know what that means or doesn't mean. Does it mean you don't think of it anymore? Does it mean it doesn't affect you anymore? I don't know what the answer to that question is.

You know, maybe overcoming something means that it now no longer negatively influences you. I don't know. I don't think that we have like one fixed idea of overcoming something that isn't tangible. It's not like scaling a mountain. So the honest answer I would give is, yeah, I just give myself grace and I try and work at it. I try and understand that it's all a work in progress. One of my favorite things I learned recently, and I guess it speaks to this, is I should remember the name.

I always remember stories and not like the names of things or the dates. But there's a beautiful art form that I learned about when I was in Japan recently. And basically it's a practice of repairing pottery and ceramics that have broken. And what happens is you break a plate or you break a vase or something and what they do is they put it back together. There are these artisans who do it. But they don is they put it back together. There are these artisans who do it. But they don't just glue it back together. They glue it back together and they sort of adorn it with like a golden bondage.

And what you get is an object that is somehow more beautiful than before it was broken. And it's this beautiful Japanese tradition. I'm sure you could find the name and put it out there, but if you could help me with it. To me, it was one of the most beautiful concepts and a different way to think about being, quote unquote, fixed or overcoming or, you know, it is the art of kintsugi in Japan. And learning about this blew my mind because it was such a, it was a paradox shifting way for me to think about overcoming or being better. And it wasn't the idea that we are perfect the way we were before something happened

to us, but rather it is that we get to wear our cracks with a new type of pride and a new type of beauty. And that's maybe how I think of overcoming now is I think of myself like a ceramic that has been cracked many times. And because of the love in my life and because of great therapists and because of good people and because I've worked, I've managed to find ways to put gold bondage in those cracks to somehow find a little more beauty in myself than I had before the thing that happened to me.

And so yeah, every time I see those, it actually makes me emotional when I look at each one and I think about the story sort of of the person that each vessel contains. My last question is a very complex question, but it was inspired by what you just said about kintsugi, the Japanese tradition, which is I spoke to a guy called Mo Gorda on my podcast who had lost his son. Oh yeah, I love Mo's. He's amazing. Yeah, I love your conversation with him.

That was great. It's been my favourite of all time for many reasons, but many of them you've touched on today. And in that conversation, he said something to me about the loss of his son. He said, there's this thing called the Eraser Test. I don't know if you've ever heard about it. They ask a group of people who have been through a lot of difficult experiences that if there was a button in front of them that would erase all of those experiences, really difficult experiences at times, would they press it? Now if I put a button in front of you and it would erase what happened to your mother being shot at that age, would you press it? Yes, I would.

You would? Yeah, I would. And this is a fundamental philosophical argument that I have with people. This is purely like philosophy and it's the way I see the world and I think the way some people see the world. I understand that many of the times, or I understand that like oftentimes people come out of a bad experience with a new learning or something that has improved them in many ways. But I think we should never take for granted how many times that doesn't happen. I think we should never take for granted how many people are broken by a bad thing.

And I think we've done something in society, and maybe it's because we want to valorize it, or maybe it's because we want to make people feel like they're not victims, or we want to make it seem like there was some purpose or meaning. Maybe it's tied to religion. I think we, at times, have sort of valorized this idea. It happened to you for a reason. And so now you get this kid who was abused by their parents or someone in their family, and you're like, it happened to you for a reason.

It made you the person you are today. Or somebody who suffered a horrible trauma or like a car accident, a terrorist attack, whatever it is, hey, it happened to you for a reason. You're going to look at you, you will be stronger. Look at you today, you wouldn't be this person. You know what people forget to talk about is the fact that, yeah, you could have been a different version of you. You could have been happier.

You could have been less wounded. You could have carried less burden. You could have been less hurtful because of that. And I think we should never take that for granted. I think we should encourage people to find the best. And we should always say to ourselves, hey, what can I get from this situation? What can I learn from it? How can I grow from it?

But I am not a fan of anybody saying that they will keep it because it's made them who they are. Just because you've survived a storm doesn't mean that you should want to keep that storm. And that's why I say it's a philosophical argument. It really is. But I don't like how we've done that to people because in some way, I feel like it makes people think that they now have to be grateful for a terrible thing that has happened to them or a terrible thing that they've experienced or people around them have experienced because

they've come out more resilient on the other side of it. Everything happens to you for a reason. Yeah. And so if I could replace it, I go, no, I forget that. I don't go like everything happens to you or doesn't. I go back to what I said my friend, phrase my friend taught me, who do you choose to be? I would say forget the eraser test.

I would say to you, it can never be an eraser test. Why don't we replace it with a pencil test, a pen test, a marker test, whatever device you want to use. And you go, if you could press this button and decide what story you write on the other side of the thing that happened to you, would you now write that story? And what story would you write? I think that's more important because the eraser thing makes people now feel like they have to disown a part of themselves,

which most people will not want to do. But then it makes you feel like you have to like claim this thing as being part of yourself. No, I would press that button. I would erase my mother being shot. I would erase me having ADHD. I would erase the tough times that my country went on. I'd erase apartheid. I wouldn't be like, I'll keep apartheid, Stephen, because if it wasn't for apartheid, I wouldn't be here with you today. No, no, no, no, no, no. I would erase it and maybe we'd be dealing with something else. But if I could, I would press that button because I don't think we need to celebrate

it. I think we need to work on it and we need to strive to heal ourselves. But I don't think your tribulations are what make you. You survived, and I'm proud of you for surviving. But that doesn't mean that you needed to go through what you had to go through. So beautifully said. You have a wonderful podcast.

I can talk to you all day, but if people want to hear more from you, they have to go and listen to your podcast. It's called What Now? It's on Spotify. You speak to a whole range of people like me, but you do it in a very different way, but in the way with the same set of components

as to what's made you such a hit with so many people. I can't tell you how much my team, my family, my sister, my brothers, they're such tremendous fans of you because you have this wonderful blend of wisdom. I now know where it all comes from. Humility, vulnerability, and you are authentic. And authentic is a complicated word, but you are authentic as anyone could hope to be. That's why everyone has to go listen to your podcast.

It's the third link that I'm gonna put down below. It's called What Now? And it's one of my favorites. Trevor, thank you so much. From the guy who made easily one of the best ever. Thank you very much. Oh, you're so very, yeah. No, no, I mean this for real. I always say, like I go, if you wanna see a professional podcast, Thank you so much. Thank you. From the guy who made easily one of the best ever. Thank you very much. Oh, you're so...

No, no, I mean this. I mean this for real. I always say, like I go, if you want to see a professional podcast, go to Diary of a CEO. If you want to come explore my mind, come listen to what now. People want to explore your mind for that. No, but for real, I'm like, congratulations. I appreciate it.

Thank you so much. And I can't tell you how much of an honor this was. Sometimes I get quite nervous to interview people and you're one of the people that I got nervous to because. Thank you so much. And I can't tell you how much of an honor this was. Sometimes I get quite nervous to interview people and you're one of the people that I got nervous to because I respect you so much. So thank you so much Trevor for the time. I appreciate you. Yeah man. And don't spend as much time alone.

You're not like, you know, I know you've always been there and I know it can feel in a weird way can feel like the comfortable place, but like it doesn't need to be. I'm learning this. You'll be shocked at like how much lies on the other side of it. In a weird way, you'll be shocked at what finding that belonging can do for you. It comes with risk, the same way it does in a romantic relationship, but man, it's easily the most rewarding. If I could evangelize one thing to people out there, it would be

find your people, find your place. And unfortunately, I think that's what's happening these days. People are finding that place in negativity. People are finding community in negativity. Now we all hate together. We all hate tweet together and we were all like angry at women together and we all hate that music artist together and we all, yeah, let's hate together. But that's, it's not sustainable because it gobbles us up. It like, it just like chews us up and

spits us out. But if you can find the things that you love doing for you and then you find the people who love doing it as well and it makes you feel good, the thing on the other side is, it's magic. In fact, they've shown studies, I know you love studies, studies, multiple studies have shown and I think a meta-analysis as well has shown that people who have a strong group of friends actually have better romantic relationships. Because the burden of your relationship is now lessened by having this community as opposed to people who merge with one person and then all their hopes, aspirations, dreams, fears, frustrations are just poured on them, you reach a breaking point.

But you can actually have, it's not replacing it by the way, you have a better romantic relationship when you maintain and you have a strong friendship. So I encourage it. Do it. I promise you I will. Do it. I promise. It's going to be great.

Thank you, Chan. Thank you, man. Thank you so much. It was amazing. Thank you, Charlie. Thank you, man. Thank you so much. This was amazing. I really appreciate it. Thank you. Thank you.