The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett - Water Fasting Scientist: Surprising Link Between Fasting & Cancer! Fasting Completely Resets Your Gut Microbiome!

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Starting point is 00:01:15 It's called fasting, and there's more. Fasting introduces not just a chance to lose weight. It also mobilizes visceral fat, which is the fat around the belly and the organs, which is giving off inflammatory products that's causing heart seeds, cancer, diabetes, and many people are maintaining higher visceral fat than what they should be. So I've spent 40 years helping people get healthy, and I can tell you that I think you should be fasting every day. So tell me about that then, but also, isn't the game here just to not eat as much?

Starting point is 00:01:41 Well, here's the problem. Dr. Allen Goldhammer is a pioneering physician. Who spent his life helping thousands of people reverse chronic disease, eliminate medication, and reclaim their health using one of the most ancient healing tools known to humanity. Today, we live in a world designed to make you fat sick and miserable. where 76% of people are overweight or obese, and where people think that health comes from pills, potions, and powders.

Starting point is 00:02:05 And yet, most of us are ignorant with the proven health benefits of fasting. In fact, if you look at all the chemical changes that happen with exercise, they also happen with fasting. Things like increasing BDNF, a neurochemical protecting the brain from Alzheimer's disease.

Starting point is 00:02:20 And what about water fasting? So people that have not been successful resolving their conditions with medications, including patients with polycystic ovarian syndrome, have been profoundly affected by water fasting and we'll go through fabulous research. But one thing you want to realize is that all human beings have the capacity to fast.

Starting point is 00:02:36 Okay, so let's run through the unique selling points versus any other diet or intervention. Let's do it. Just give me 30 seconds of your time. Two things I wanted to say. The first thing is a huge thank you for listening and tuning into the show week after week.

Starting point is 00:02:51 It means the world to all of us and this really is a dream that we absolutely never had and couldn't have imagined getting to this place. but secondly it's a dream where we feel like we're only just getting started and if you enjoy what we do here please join the 24% of people that listen to this podcast regularly and follow us on this app here's a promise I'm going to make to you I'm going to do everything in my power to make this show as good as I can now and into the future we're going to deliver the guests that you want me to speak to and we're going to continue to keep doing all of the things you love about this show thank you

Starting point is 00:03:27 Dr. Alan Goldhammer, my first question is, who are you and what have you spent the last four decades of your life doing? And why? I've spent my entire life really focused on one topic, and that's this idea that, you know, health results from healthful living. I got interested really young. I was in elementary school, and I had decided that I wanted to pursue this as a career. And when I finished training in the United States, I had an opportunity to go to Australia and I studied with a guy named Alec Burton, who was the world's leading expert in the use of medically supervised water-only fasting. And I saw things there that weren't supposed to be happening. People were getting better. I saw people with chronic diseases like high blood

Starting point is 00:04:12 pressure resolving their hypertension, getting off the medications. And so we began to carefully evaluate patients with hypertension. In this study, 174 consecutive patients with high blood pressure and 174 people normalize their blood pressure without the need for medication. After we published that paper, we went on and we've published a couple dozen papers now on the use of diet and fasting in the literature, and we've written a book. It's called Can Fasting Save Your Life, which summarizes our work and other people's work on this use of fasting to help the body do what it really does best in which is heal itself if you get out of the way. So fasting, the word has become incredibly popular, but there's a variety of different types of fasting.

Starting point is 00:04:54 So what is the type of fasting that you spend most of your time doing, working on administering to patients? Right. Well, fasting is the complete abstinence of all substances in an environment of complete rest. So what does that mean? That means that you're actually resting while you're fasting in order to get therapeutic fasting to be most effective. And the reason is, if you're very active when you're fasting, your body has to produce more glucose in order to carry on the extra muscular and brain activity. And the only way that it does that after glycogen reserves are depleted is through a process called gluconeogenesis, where the body breaks down lean tissue.

Starting point is 00:05:33 So when you're fasting, if your goal is to maximize fat loss and minimize lean tissue loss, it's important that resting be a part of the protocol. It's true if people are more active when they're fasting, they'll lose more weight. But that extra weight won't be fat. It'll be lean tissue. So, so what happens to the body when someone fasts? And can you give me like an hour by hour or a play by play in terms of what actually is the sort of physiological sequence of events that are beneficial for one's health? So it's a really interesting, fairly well-studied

Starting point is 00:06:09 and complex physiological adaptation that human beings make to fasting. Normally your brain burns glucose. Which is what I get if I have a piece of bread or a bar of chocolate. Or if you breakdown protein, which can also break down into glucose, which is what happens after 24 hours of fasting. You've depleted your glycogen stores, the sugar stores in your muscles. And so then the body, in order to get the glucose it needs, has to either convert to burning fat or break down muscle in order to form glucose. What the human being does is it converts its main burner of glucose, which is the brain, from burning sugar to burning fat. Now, if it didn't do that, that, you could fast about a week. You'd enter starvation, deplete your protein stores, and you'd

Starting point is 00:06:56 starve to death. Because you can convert your brain to burning fat instead of sugar, a 70 kilogram male can fast about 70 days. Now, that doesn't mean they should fast 70 days, but they could fast up to 70 days because your main burner of glucose, your brain will convert to burning a completely different fuel, which is fat. So let me see if I've got this correct. So if I'm on a typical American diet, I'm going to be eating lots of things and my body's going to be breaking that down into this fuel source called glucose. If I stop eating the glucose, my body has this sort of evolutionary switch where it's going to start burning my fat and turning that into this thing called ketones, which my brain can run on as well. That's correct. And you have

Starting point is 00:07:40 about 24 hours of glycogen stores or sugar stores in your muscles, in your liver. So when you stop eating, for the first 24 hours, you're still able to produce glucose from your glycote. glycogen stores. But once you've depleted your glycogen stores, now you're stuck. You either burn fat or you break down lean tissue. Now, because the human brain is so ridiculously large, I mean, it's two and a half times a chimps weren't just, it's a huge glucose burning machine. You had to have a way of being able to use some kind of other fuel for that brain. Otherwise, the first time spring comes late, all the human beings would have died. And so this biological adaptation was clearly important for our survival in large part because we have disproportionately

Starting point is 00:08:25 large brains that burn, you know, ridiculous amounts of glucose. Just because the body does it as a survival mechanism doesn't posit that it's necessarily healthy though, right? Absolutely. And what we've done, though, is we've taken this biological adaptation, which by definition would be, you know, something the body's capable of doing safely and efficiently, and utilizing it in a very unusual situation, and that's where people have consistently been exposed to dietary excess. You know, in the world of our ancient ancestors, getting enough to eat and not getting eaten was the biological imperative of life. It was difficult to get enough to eat. In fact, most human beings that were born, modern humans, probably didn't live to reproduce.

Starting point is 00:09:05 They didn't pass on their DNA. Were the results of the winners, you know, most people, starvation, predation, had all kinds of challenges that would prevent people from reaching reproductive age, taking a biological adaptation, something that's natural to the body and applying it in a situation where people had consistent exposure to dietary excess. When you say dietary excess, you mean too much calories? Too much calories. In fact, the diseases that we suffer today, the heart disease, the diabetes, the autoimmune diseases, some of the cancer, these used to be rare conditions that were called the diseases of kings. It was the wealthy elite kings that could consistently overeat that would get the gout, that would get the heart disease. These weren't common

Starting point is 00:09:43 conditions that were present for the peasants. These were rarefied conditions. They've become common conditions because now people are consistently being exposed to dietary excess. And more importantly, we're fooling our brain satiety mechanisms into overeating by putting chemicals in our food. And as a consequence, we have a situation today where 76% of people are overweight or obese. And the extra fat comes with something called visceral fat. It's the fat that tends to accumulate around the belly and the organs, and it's pro-inflammatory, hypermetabolic, hypertrophic. It acts like a tumor. You have people walking around there, maybe they have 20 pounds of extra adipose tissue. They have two pounds of visceral fat. And that visceral fat is giving off

Starting point is 00:10:27 inflammatory products that's causing heart disease, cancer, diabetes, autoimmune diseases. And what's weird is these conditions are treated as if they're completely independent, unrelated conditions. You have to go to a different kind of doctor to be even diagnosed. and treated with these conditions, and yet they all seem to be associated with dietary excess fat, excess visceral fat, and the inflammation that's associated with that visceral fat. Let's run through what happens inside the body when I start fasting, and then I want to talk about fasting in a little bit more specifics. But what's going on in the body? So you said in the first sort of 24 hours, 48 hours, my body is going to switch from using glucose as a fuel source

Starting point is 00:11:06 to ketones. It's going to predominantly shift the brain and liver muscles, are going to begin shifting. It's a progression, depending on your glycogen stores, so that within 16 hours, 24 hours, up to 48 hours, in that transition, you'll be going from burning almost exclusively glucose in the brain to burning predominantly byproducts of fat metabolism, ketones, and specifically beta-hydroxybutyric acid. Is that basically ketones? Ketones break down into different components. Beta-hydroxybutyric acid becomes the predominant fuel of the brain. It's a byproduct of fat metabolism. Okay.

Starting point is 00:11:42 And the higher your beta-hydroxybutyric acid is, the more BDNF is produced, BDNF, brain-drive neurotrophic factor is a neurochemical that's thought to be protective in the brain from oxidative damage. So that can result in things like Alzheimer's disease and dementia. You know, and they do rat studies. Rats in a cage, 30 rats, both cages, everything's identical. They give half the rats a wheel. The rats with the wheel will run on the wheel, and they don't get Alzheimer's disease.

Starting point is 00:12:10 they said, why? What is it about the exercise that's preventing these rats from getting oxidative damage in their brain that results in dementia, Alzheimer's-type disease? And they found it was BDNF. It's dramatically higher with exercise. It also goes up with fasting. In fact, it's interesting, if you look at all the cardiometabolic improvements that happen with exercise, the chemical changes that they also happen with fasting. And that's not intuitively obvious because in fasting, you know, you're resting and exercise, you're vigorous. You might say, what do these two, seemingly unrelated phenomena have in common. And what I think is going on is that both exercise and fasting undo the consequences of

Starting point is 00:12:51 dietary excess. They reduce the fat, specifically the visceral fat and the inflammation that leads to all these different diseases. And so every time you look at the benefits of exercise, you oftentimes see these correlaries with fasting. And at some point in this fasting process, your body moves into a state of autophagy. I've heard that word a few times. Yeah. What is that?

Starting point is 00:13:13 So autophagy or autophagy is how the body gets rid of senescent cells and waste products and cancer cells. And, you know, it kind of eats up that debris and does the housekeeping. And there's some things that increase autophagy and one of those things is fasting. You know, if you take rodents, for example, and you let them eat at libidum, as much as they want. they will live to a certain amount of time. If you take those rats and you periodically fast them, you can increase their lifespan from 30% to 100% even though the diet's the same just with periodic fasting

Starting point is 00:13:53 or with systematic underfeeding. If you limit, instead of giving them as much to eat as they want, you feed them at 60% of what they would eat if they ate unlimited amounts and you can dramatically increase their lifespan. It's an interesting way of looking at it, From my viewpoint, though, they're looking at it wrong. It's not that fasting doubles your lifespan. It's overfeeding cuts it in half.

Starting point is 00:14:17 By overfeeding the rodents, they're developing fat, visceral fat, they get the inflammation, and you cut their lifespan in half. So what fasting is doing is allowing them live their full span by getting rid of the consequences of dietary excess. So isn't the game here then just to not eat as much versus fasting? Absolutely. the idea is to avoid excess intake that results in excess fat that results in excess visceral fat. The problem is it's very difficult to do that when they are putting chemicals in your feed that fool your satiety mechanisms and lead to overeating. So tidy mechanisms being mechanisms that tell you whether you're hungry or not. Right, whether your brain signals you accurately that the amount of calories

Starting point is 00:14:58 you have. If you, for example, just sit down and eat your fill of whole plant foods, you eat a certain amount and then you feel full. But if you put certain chemicals in the feed, you'll eat significantly more before you trigger those satiety mechanisms and feel full. Those chemicals that we put in our food are salt, oil, and sugar. Salt, oil, and sugar are not food. They're hyper-concentrated components derive from food that are put back into food. And we put them into food to make food taste better. And what tasting better actually means is it results in more stimulation of dopamine in your brain. Dopamine is the neurochemical associated with pleasure. The more dopamine, the more pleasure, the more you like it.

Starting point is 00:15:40 And so it turns out that higher caloric density foods or foods that have chemicals like salt, oil, and sugar, and the food will stimulate more dopamine in the brain. And that's because your brain evolved in an environment of scarcity. It involved where it was difficult to get enough to eat and avoid being eaten. And so richer foods had more value. And so that people that recognize the value of more concentrated foods tend to live to reproduce and pass on their DNA.

Starting point is 00:16:04 Today, we live in a world where we've corrupted the whole system. And so now we have unlimited amounts of hyper-concentrated foods with these chemicals like salt, oil, and sugar. So when you eat those foods, you will overeat. The only question is how much, and what are the consequences? Should we be intermittent fasting, or should we just be restricting our calories? Are they the same thing? Well, there's different tools available to allow for us to eat

Starting point is 00:16:31 ad libidum, but still meet optimum nutritional intake. One tool is intermittent fasting, that is, or time-restricted feeding, which we've practiced for 40 years, which is basically don't eat three to four hours before you go to bed at night. So instead of eating right up to the time you go to sleep, you withhold calories after the last meal so that you have three to four hours of fasting every day. That gives you a 12-hour fast every day. And if you're trying to lose weight, some people believe you could extend that fasting period another four hours in the morning, do some exercise in the morning, preferentially burning fat. And so that would give you a 16-hour fast and limit your feeding window to eight hours.

Starting point is 00:17:11 And what's the benefit? Some people find by limiting the feeding window, they can limit some of the overeating. That a lot of eating is being done for reasons other than being hungry. Sometimes people at night, you know, they've had a big dinner, and now they're eating additional food, not necessarily because they're hungry, but because they're bored, they're tired, or they're fatigued. And sometimes when they're fatigued and they eat and they feel stimulated, they think, oh, they must have been hungry when in reality they were tired. Our suggestion is when you're tired, go to sleep, and when you're bored, you know, engage in productive activities. And when you're hungry, then you eat.

Starting point is 00:17:43 And if you limit your feeding window to eight hours, some people find that it's a helpful tool at minimizing some of the overeating. Now, it's not going to work for everybody. If you have very high caloric needs, you know, you're a competitive athlete. Eight hours feeding window, particularly on high nutrient density. low-chloric density foods may not give you enough feeding window in order to get the calories that you need. When you're trying to burn 3,500, 4,000 calories a day on very low-clerc density foods, you may need to have a 12-hour feeding window in order to be able to get the calorie density need. But for most of us that are trying to maintain or lose weight, having a narrow

Starting point is 00:18:17 feeding window may prove to be of some benefit. When I'm in a ketogenic diet or when I guess I'm fasted, which is very rare, why is it that my cognitive performance seems to be? be significantly better. Because people have heard me say this so many times, but it's so true, when I'm eating a normal Western diet, my ability to articulate myself and think and be creative seems to be diminished, whereas when I'm avoiding carbohydrates and sugar, I seem to be able to think and talk better. I think, again, it may not be that the ketones are helping you think better. It may be that the sugar vacillations are interfering with your cognitive function. For example, when people eat, particularly refined carbohydrates, their insulin

Starting point is 00:19:03 levels go up, drive the sugar down, they end up with low blood sugar levels which can interfere with cognitive function as a consequence of this vacillation that's taking place with their blood sugar levels between insulin and glucose. When you go on a ketogenic type of an approach or you're in a fasting state, everything is very stable as far as glucose is concerned and insulin is concerned. Okay, so you don't want to be on the sugar roller coaster if you're doing important work. Being stable seems to help people in their cognitive state. function. People talk a lot about juice fasting. And I don't know, there's something about when people say that they're on a juice fast. I always think, God, you're going to be missing

Starting point is 00:19:37 important nutrients. You're not going to be getting the same quantity of protein necessarily. Maybe, I don't know, your gut microbiome is going to pay the price if you're restricting yourself from having certain things. Is juice fasting advisable? Is it a healthy approach? So juice fasting isn't technically fasting because fasting is the complete abstinence of all substances. it's a modified form of eating. So it's a diet that's high in sugar, very low in fiber, virtually no fiber on these juices. Where it can be helpful is people that are trying to make dietary changes

Starting point is 00:20:11 and they're addicted to the artificial stimulation of dopamine in their brain that comes from the use of their highly refined diets. They're trying to make a change. They're trying to make a break. And because it's sweet and very appealing, they'll drink the juices, they'll get their six or 800 calories, they'll feel relatively satiated.

Starting point is 00:20:27 and it allows them to avoid the greasy, fatty processed foods that sometimes they're trying to get away from. Personally, I think that water fasting has advantages over juice fasting in terms of the magnitude of the detoxifying effect, the impact that it has. But the advantages to juice fasting, or what they call juice fasting, is that it can be done without modifying medications. You're still in a feeding physiology. It can be done safely by people without having to be in a controlled setting like you would for water fasting. So there's advantages to do the intermittent or modified fasting approaches. It's not the basis of the research that we've published, which is actually water-only fasting. We're fasting people on water only from five to 40 days.

Starting point is 00:21:08 Five to 40 days. So tell me about that then. So who exactly would you prescribe a 40-day water fast to? And presumably in those 40 days, they have nothing but water. Right. Patients that are fasting in our facility are on fractionally steam distilled water only. the only thing they take. They're not taking supplements, medications. What is that fraction?

Starting point is 00:21:29 You know, distilled water. So it's purified water, highly purified water. So in our case, we're using distillation. Some people use reverse osmosis, different ways of getting all the hydrogenated halocarbons and the chlorine and everything out of the water. So just essentially what rainwater would be if the environment wasn't polluted. Okay. Now, in fairness, not everybody's a good candidate for that type of fasting. In order to determine if you're a good candidate, obviously you have to review the medical history and take a look at what people are doing in terms of their medical treatment,

Starting point is 00:21:59 particularly in terms of medications. Basic laboratory testing makes your kidney and liver function are intact or capable of adapting to fasting. And when people fast, they need to rest. If people are active, we've already mentioned, they'll increase their weight loss, but that weight will be derived from breaking down lean tissue. We want to minimize lean tissue, maximize fat, particularly visceral fat.

Starting point is 00:22:19 It's also important that they be monitored because people do have issues that can be aggravated by, fasting. Fasting presents a dehydration response. There's a physiological dehydration that occurs with fasting. There's changes in electrolytes. So you need to make sure that people are being monitored appropriately. And then the most important part probably is they need to be refred progressively. Refed. Yeah. So when they're eating after the fast, if they go back to too rapid refeating, you can get into a problem with post-fasting endema. You can get refeating syndrome. That could be a very serious or even potentially, you know, fatal problem.

Starting point is 00:22:55 that can be completely avoided by following a reasonable protocol of re-elementation after fasting, which is the reason why we encourage patients that are doing fasting to do it, either in a controlled setting or under some supervision, so that they don't make catastrophic errors in terms of how they do it. When it's that length, when it's long? Well, water fasting, we're doing fasting anywhere from five to 40 days, so anywhere in that range, you want to make sure the person's a good candidate that they're fasting in a controlled setting, that they rest, and they refeed properly.

Starting point is 00:23:27 So a person that has to say a 20-day fast would have 10 days of controlled refeating. It'll take about half the length of the fast to properly re-alement after the fast so that you're ready to go back to hopefully a whole plant food, SOS-free-type diet. And when you say S-OS, you mean sugar, salt, and oil for context. Yeah, S-O-S is the international symbol of danger, but it also stands for the chemicals added to food that make people fat sick and miserable, and those are salt, oil, and sugar. What kind of candidate would come to your clinic to do a five to 40 day water fast? What are the symptoms they have?

Starting point is 00:23:58 What are the diseases, illnesses that they're suffering with? Well, we get a variety of people in ages. The conditions we see are often the conditions that we've published papers on, because that's what people know us for. So one of the most common conditions is high blood pressure. We did a study with our colleague, T. Colin Campbell, as I mentioned, 174 people in a row. We're able to achieve normal blood pressure without medication. We also did a prospective study recently with a colleague from the Mayo Clinic recently

Starting point is 00:24:26 that we did 27 people completed fasting with hypertension. 26 were able to achieve normal blood pressure without any medication. One required half their dose of medication. And we had six-week phops where they did well. And then we followed them at a year. And we found that 76% of those people a year or later had maintained their weight loss and the majority were still normal blood pressure without medication. Were they still fasting after a year?

Starting point is 00:24:50 No, of course, they were fasting while they were at that. the center they were back eating a healthy diet and they'd maintained a healthy enough diet for a year that they were able to maintain their blood pressure and their weight loss and that's very unusual because you don't find good long-term follow-up showing that people are not only able to get well but sustain those behavioral changes so it was more it's more of an intervention in that regard and how and how long were they fasted for those people so the people in that study ranged uh the average fasting was about two weeks. So they had two weeks of fasting that normalized their blood pressure, a week of refeeding. And then even a year later, the majority were able to sustain the behavioral

Starting point is 00:25:30 changes such that they were able to keep their weight off and they're able to keep their blood pressure down without the need for medication. And what's going on there? Because there's physiological changes that take place. If I went and did a 40-day water fast with you, there's some physiological things that are going to happen. Of course, I'm going to go into ketosis. My fat's going to start to become my primary fuel source. But there's also going to be a, physiological relationship. There's going to be something that happens in my psychology. I mean, you talked about dopamine. My brain is going to change in some respect. My relationship with food is going to shift in some respect. Absolutely. If you look at the outcome data,

Starting point is 00:26:05 for example, we've got studies we've done with dexas scanners that look at body composition changes during fasting. And so people that would lose, say, fast for two weeks, would lose 10% of their total body weight, 20% of their total fat, but 40% of their visceral fat. Visceral fat being the bad fat inside the... Yeah, the 10% of fat that produces the inflammation that's thought to contribute to disease. Those same people would have only lost 6% of their lean tissue. Now, what's interesting, like muscle, water, you know, non-fat tissue. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:26:37 So the lean tissue mass at six weeks was fully recovered so that the percentage of their lean mass was actually higher at six weeks than it was. baseline but the fat loss continues so even though they're gaining weight after fasting because they're putting their glycogen back in their muscles which is about two pounds they're rehydrating they're putting fluid and they're putting fiber back in the gut so the scale's going up but the fat loss even with that weight gain is continuing down and so what what you look at is their whole body composition begins to change and also their brain composition too probably in terms of their functional relationship to themselves for one thing a lot of people feel that

Starting point is 00:27:17 any kind of pain is a bad thing. Any kind of pain is a bad thing. And pain must always be avoided. If they have a pain, they have to take a pill, they have to do something. Because pain's the evil issue there. Athletes learn that pain isn't always bad. Sometimes discomfort can be associated with a positive response.

Starting point is 00:27:35 We find it's easier working sometimes with athletes than people that have not been athletic because they've learned to push their body a little bit. And fasting creates a hormetic effect as well, whereas there is some physiological stress that's introduced. That stress is associated with a healing response. Would it not just be healthier if it were simple to take those people and remove all the processed food from their diet

Starting point is 00:28:00 and then keep them on like a Mediterranean diet with high protein, high fiber? Would that not be a more healthy intervention? Because at least then I'm not going to lose. You've mentioned I'd lose 6% of my lean tissue. At least then I wouldn't lose any muscle necessarily. Well, I would agree that if your only goal is weight loss, diet and exercise are the key. Fasting introduces not just a chance to lose weight, but specifically to mobilize visceral fat. You will eventually mobilize that visceral fat with exercise alone.

Starting point is 00:28:30 There's an advantage to getting rid of that sooner rather than later, particularly for people that have high blood pressure, diabetes, autoimmune disease, because the sooner you get rid of the visceral fat and the inflammation, the sooner you can get them off the medications. The medications themselves present their own problem. And people don't understand, if you have high blood pressure, you're being medicated, not for your high blood pressure, but for the diet that causes the high blood pressure. Literally, the day you change the diet to a health-promoting diet, the need for medication begins to reduce.

Starting point is 00:28:58 And if you don't reduce the medication adequately, you can actually shut people down from, you know, consequences of excess medication. Is there a different advantage between me doing the fast, the water fast, versus just going on the ketogenic diet if I was trying to reduce my visceral fat, which is the same. that sort of stubborn fat around your organs. Yes, water fasting is a more efficient method of mobilizing specifically visceral fat. And the other problem with that, when we talk about a ketogenic diet, remember, there's a lot of different ways of getting into ketosis. You can do it with a high fat, high protein diet, which is commonly advocated, you know, the dead doctor

Starting point is 00:29:31 Atkins diet, may it's filet of sole rest of bees or those kind of programs. Those have some disadvantages. High protein, particularly high animal protein, is actually thought to be one of the major contributing factors to many of these health compromises, including cardiovascular disease and cancer and inflammation and the rest of it. So we need protein. It's an essential nutrient. You need about 10% of your calories from protein. When you get excess protein, you put yourself at risk for kidney disease,

Starting point is 00:29:56 cardiovascular disease, and other problems. We need fat. Essential fatty acids are a critical part of our ability to be healthy. And you also need carbohydrates. You're designed as a carbohydrate-burning machine. But you get all the fat, all the protein, and all the carbohydrates you need from a whole plant-food diet. You don't need to eat large amounts of animal foods. You don't need to eat oils. You don't need to eat refined carbohydrates to get the foods you need. And in fact, a whole plant

Starting point is 00:30:23 food, SOS-free diet gives you the quantity and quality of nutrients you need without some of the negative consequences or the risks of dietary excess that come from these more processed modern diets. So if you were to pitch to me the unique selling points of a water fast at your clinic versus any other intervention, medical or lifestyle, it would be the speed in which you're able to burn visceral fat and the speed in which you're able to lower blood pressure is unlike anything else. It also reduces insulin resistance. There is no drug that reduces insulin resistance, but fasting does.

Starting point is 00:31:04 And a significant percentage of our type 2 diabetics will achieve normal blood sugar levels without the need for medication with fasting. Again, if you do diet and exercise consistently enough, long enough, you're likely to get many of the same benefits. There are some things, though, that seem to change in fasting that don't change as well with these modified feeding regimes. For example, fasting, you know what, when you have a computer and it gets corrupted and you turn it off and you turn it back on and you don't know why, but now it works. You know, you've kind of rebooted or flash the memory, whatever it is. Fasting does a similar thing in humans, it appears, and particularly when it comes to the gut microbiome. So you've got a trillion creatures, well, trillions of creatures living just in your intestinal tract,

Starting point is 00:31:47 particularly bacteria, but all kinds of organisms that are an important part of your digestive mechanisms, your immune response, and they're different depending on what you eat. So if you're eating animal-based diet, you have different organisms than if you're on a plant-based diet, if you're on a high sugar diet, even fruit sugars and things, you get different organisms flourishing than you would if you're in a fasting state. In a fasting state, there's a big drop off in total organisms. And then when you refeed, depending on how you refeed, you can actually regrow those organisms and repopulate that. I'm right in thinking if you do a water fast, you're going to wipe out a lot of the bacteria

Starting point is 00:32:26 in your gut, including the bad ones, but also some good ones. And then you can reintroduce certain foods that will bring back the good bacteria. That's why refeeding after fasting is so important. If you refeed carefully, you have a chance to reestablish that normal microfluor balance. And that may be why we see such good response in many of these GI-related conditions, like ulcerative colitis and Crohn's disease and chronic constipation, irritable bowel syndrome. But you also see it affecting things like depression and anxiety.

Starting point is 00:32:58 And probably they say 90, 95% of the dopamine and serotonin that's produced by the body is actually produced in the gut. And so the balance in your gut microbiome may be critically involved in cognitive function as well as what's going on in the digestive system itself. So we're just now learning the impact that fasting has and the effect that microbiome has and the relationship that those two things have together. There was a 2004 study that found after a seven-day water only fast levels of harmful fuzobacteria dropped by more than 80%. And the gut microbiome shifted to a healthier balance. So it's clearly doing some of the work to wipe out some of the bad, unhealthy gut microbiome bacteria, which gives you an opportunity to, I guess, reset the gut microbiome,

Starting point is 00:33:45 which is really interesting. Especially as you say, you have some of those sort of gut-centric diseases. Is there a gender component to this between sort of men and women? Because obviously women have menstrual cycles and certain hormone fluctuations that men don't have. So do you have to think about gender? when you're thinking about fasting? Well, we know that women have complicated systems

Starting point is 00:34:08 in different ways than men, and they have different diseases, too, that show up, fibrocystic breast disease, dysmenorrhea, menorrhasea, polycystic ovarian syndrome, all of these conditions that males don't know anything about, seem to be associated with excess estradiol hormones. When estradial is high, there's a higher association with many of these conditions. Estradial normally breaks down to something called estriol,

Starting point is 00:34:32 and it's excreted in the urine. And what breaks it down is the gut microbiome and liver function. And the gut microbiome and liver function are both profoundly affected by fasting. For example, in studies we've done looking at fatty liver disease, we show significant changes and reversal of fatty liver disease with fasting. And as I mentioned, the gut microbiome goes through a whole kind of rebooting. And that may be why patients that come in with those symptoms, the fibrocystic breast disease, the dysminares, etc.

Starting point is 00:35:00 often get profound short-term improvement and long-term benefit post-fasting. Now, all of these things I'd have to say, fasting is great, but unless it's a motivating factor to make the diet and lifestyle changes, I wouldn't be optimistic about long-term outcomes. When we use fasting, we're also providing intense education to try to get people motivated to adopt healthy diet and lifestyle habits, and it's those diet and lifestyle habits that are going to be necessary to sustain the benefits. I mean, I'll give you an example.

Starting point is 00:35:30 in lymphoma, which is a type of cancer. We published a paper in the British Medical Journal case reports on a young woman who had flicker lymphoma had progressed for a couple years. And interestingly enough, her doctor, her oncologist told her that diet didn't matter. The diet wasn't related to this particular type of cancer. She could eat whatever she wanted to. But nonetheless, she decided to come in rather than go through chemotherapy. underwent fasting, and we did three weeks of fasting during which time you could literally feel

Starting point is 00:36:04 these tumors disappearing. She had her follow-up CT scan, and at a year. We submitted this case report, and it was interesting because BMJ said, well, maybe she got lucky, and yes, it progressed for two years. Yes, it went away in 21 days of fasting, but maybe, you know, it was just naturally the time for it to go into remission, a small percentage of lymphoma patients do go through spontaneous remission. So they said, once you follow her for three years and see whether she can sustain that because we can treat lymphoma with drugs and the tumors will go down but they tend to come back and that's the problem it doesn't really reduce necessarily all cause mortality because the condition isn't actually resolved so we followed her for three years and I told her

Starting point is 00:36:42 that she had to stick strictly to the dietary protocol or it would be fatal because I'd track her down and kill her and she did stick to the diet and at three years we have CT evidence that she was cancer free and we submitted that to BMJ and interestingly enough at first they rejected the follow-up that they invited. And we kind of appealed that, and eventually they did decide to publish the follow-up. And then we followed her for 10 years, and she continues to be cancer-free, and she continues to follow a whole plant food, SOS-free diet. And she went public with her story. She told some podcasts about what her experience with. And so we got a lot of lymphoma patients coming to Trinorthouth. And now we've published a case series, which is a series of lymphoma patients, including one particular

Starting point is 00:37:28 gentleman was even more progressive as a stage for it had already metastasized into the bones. He had failed chemotherapy. He also did well, and we did a three-week fast with him. Interestingly enough, his oncologist was kind of antagonistic because he was concerned in the fast. He would make him too weak for treatment. But he came in, he did the treatment, did well, went back to the oncologist who said, wow, that's really impressive.

Starting point is 00:37:51 Why don't you go back and do some more of that? He came back, we did another 39-day fast, and he was able to get dramatic improvement. And again, those studies have been published in peer-review journals. But he didn't go into remission? With lymphoma, it would be considered remission, but it's not a cure. It's just like you can't cure lymphoma any more than you can cure obesity. You can lose the weight and keep it off. But if you go back to doing the things that cause it, it's coming back.

Starting point is 00:38:17 You can't cure high blood pressure. You can normalize the pressure. I've got people who have been normal pressure for decades now. But if they go back to eating the greasy, fatty, slimy, salty, salty, processed food, it'll come back because you're managing it, you're not curing it. The whole concept of a cure is a little bit of a misnomer. In medicine, you know, cure just means you're alive five years after treatment. It doesn't mean that you've actually resolved the underlying cause of the condition.

Starting point is 00:38:42 Interesting. And we have 120 plates here, which is how much food someone would be passing up if they did a 40-day diet. So that's how many meals that they would miss. on a 40-day water fast, which is a lot of food. It's staggering when you see it. And it's a lot of work for the body to digest that food. And when you take that work away, those energies are able to be diverted to dealing with some of the accumulated problems that people have built up,

Starting point is 00:39:15 whether it's excess fat and visceral fat, it's diabetes, it's autoimmune diseases, where the body's actually attacking itself. I don't know if most people realize that, but in autoimmune diseases like rheumatoid arthritis or ulcer of colitis, ankylosing spondylitis, these conditions, it's actually your immune system that's attacking your tissues. And the theory is that a lot of that is because you have the immune system being compromised by gut leakage, where people have leaky tight junctions in their intestinal tract, they're absorbing materials, and then genetically vulnerable people, the immune system becomes hyper reactive and

Starting point is 00:39:48 begins to attack its own tissues. You know, if it attacks your thyroid, we call it Hashimoto's thyroiditis. If it attacks your joints, you might call it rheumatoid or osteoarthritis, different names for different inflammatory conditions, all triggered by leaking of materials into the intestinal tract. When you go on a fast, first of all, you're not eating, and so there's not the inflammatory oxidative damage and free radicals that are causing the leaking to begin with. And second of all, the body's healing processes are able to be accentuated, and so the gut leakage is able to heal. after you heal the gut and go back to eating diet that's not full of free radicals, you're not smoking, you're not drinking alcohol with all of the free radicals from

Starting point is 00:40:30 proxidation of alcohol, you're not eating high fat foods and particularly heated fat foods and fried foods, et cetera. There's not the onslaught of oxidative damage, and now you can manage those conditions with a whole plant food, SOS free diet. Now, that doesn't mean they're cured. If they go back to eating the other foods, they're going to flare up their condition. as to the degree they're willing to eat healthfully, they can manage their condition without the medications oftentimes that are very powerful and have often long-term side effects.

Starting point is 00:40:59 When someone does a water fast with you, if they're doing a 40-day water fast, do you make sure that they get electrolytes and vitamins and other things? Are there other things that you have to give them? No, we're just giving them water, but we are monitoring their electrolytes and their blood levels to make sure that their reserves are being recycled adequately and they're normal. If, for example, potassium gets below a certain point or sodium gets below a certain point, then we go back into a re-feeding mode. We're giving broths and juices and other materials in order to refeed them. We don't allow them to develop symptoms secondary to deficiency.

Starting point is 00:41:35 Now, what's interesting is potassium, for example, normant to potassium might be 3.5. Fasting tolerances would be 3.0. If it goes below 3.0, then we're going to terminate the fast. But generally, people are so efficient at recycling their nutrients during fasting that they stay within normal limits without us having to do premature termination. And when you finish a long fast, like a 40-day fast, or even a shorter fast, like a five-day fast, what is the protocol for refeeding them? What do you give them? What do you avoid? What's the speed in which you give them calories again?

Starting point is 00:42:10 They get a day of fresh fruit and vegetable juices for every week of fasting, more or less. So they're going to get about 600 calories of fresh fruit and vegetable juices if they had a three-week fast for about three days. What's the thinking here? Like what's the underlying thought? The idea is that we want to introduce initially food without fiber. So if there's any digestive challenges that's short-lived. We want to introduce food starting in the morning rather than at night. So if there's any challenges, it doesn't disrupt their sleep.

Starting point is 00:42:37 We want to make sure that they're rehydrating and getting some glucose without necessarily overloading their capacities. Once they've acclimated to the juices, which are relatively easy to absorb and bring up blood sugars relatively quickly, moving them out of the fasting phase into more of a feeding phase, then we'll introduce raw fruits and vegetables, which introduce some fiber, and then we'll introduce more concentrated foods like steamed and starchy vegetables until by the length, half the length of the fast re-feeding, they're back to a whole plant food, SOS-free diet, the kind of diet that we want them to sustain forever. If you're starting a business, that means you're one person doing the workload of probably about 50 people. When I first founded this podcast, I had no idea that I was about to step into a hundred different roles that I'd never trained for, things like researching and production and scheduling and branding, all of it all at once. And this experience isn't unique to me. But for millions of founders around the world, the tool that changes all of that is our sponsor, Shopify. Shopify now powers 10% of all US e-commerce from names like Jim Sharp,

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Starting point is 00:44:18 A few years ago, someone broke into the Diary of a CO studio and stole all of our cameras and a few key hard drives. And it was devastating. And one that led us on a quest to figure out how we could secure our building. And through this, we discovered Simply Safe. Interestingly, we did have security at the time, but the type that we had only triggered an alarm once intruders were inside the building. What I like about SimplySafe is their active guard outdoor protection notifies you, certifies you and their live monitoring agents when suspicious characters are outside. But it also means that guards can trigger alarms or turn on spotlights to deter someone

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Starting point is 00:45:33 or a benefit to someone like me fasting? You know, we did a study actually on this. very question about what happens to healthy people that fast and although there's tremendous improvements in sick people it turns out when you look at the cardiometabolic risk factors when you look at even things like weight and percent body fat and visceral fat on healthy people people that are within healthy limits there's additional improvement their blood cholesterol drops even lower their blood pressures drop lower their percent fat drops even lower in fact proportionally the people that get the most benefit of fasting are healthy people that are doing it preventatively.

Starting point is 00:46:11 But they tend to need short fast, not long fast. You're not necessarily taking a healthy person doing a 40-day fast. These are five to 10-day periods of time rather than the very longer fast. They're usually because there's a condition that takes that long to resolve. We want a fast as short as possible, but long enough to resolve the problem. If you come to me with blood pressure that's 210 over 100 capped on on five medications, you're likely going to need a longer fast than a person that's 140 over 90 without medication. if I'm a healthy person, how frequently and for what length should I be thinking about fasting,

Starting point is 00:46:43 if at all? I think you should be fasting every day for 12 hours. Okay. And then, you know, we don't know what the ideal is. That's one of the things we're going to be doing in this study, is trying to figure that out. But what we do in practice is we have people fast once a year for a week. If they're clinically stable, they don't have any healing crisis, their numbers all the good. That's it.

Starting point is 00:47:03 We move on. And even that week of fasting, though, has a profound effect. on healthy people. I might mention, though, that most people that think they're healthy when you actually objectively look at their biomarkers aren't as healthy as they think. Many people are maintaining higher visceral fat, higher inflammatory markers, higher lipid levels than what they probably ideally should be, even though they're asymptomatic. They say somewhere around 2 to 2.5% of people are actually objectively measuring out as healthy. Some studies say as much as 12%, depending on the standards that you're using to define health.

Starting point is 00:47:34 So speaking directly to the viewer now who sat at home, and there's a reason why they clicked on this conversation. They found the subject matter in the title of the thumbnail somewhat compelling. If you were speaking directly to the different personas of people listening, so you've got maybe someone who is healthy, someone who has maybe got a little bit of a weight on that they might want to shift, someone that's got specific diseases and has been given diagnosis and maybe he's given pills,

Starting point is 00:47:57 going through these different personas one at a time, how would you prescribe water fasting to them and what would you sort of tell them the benefits for them would be if we're thinking about these different personas? So starting with the person on the left side of the spectrum who is largely healthy, but is interested in maybe how it will make them feel or whatever. So for the healthy person, the main benefit that I see of fasting is it's a forced period of rest and introspection. You get a certain clearing of the palate.

Starting point is 00:48:28 We've actually done a study like this. It's on our site where we looked at the sensitivity to sugar, the sensitivity of salt, it's actually enhanced during fasting. And so by fasting once a year, people kind of recalibrate their palate, and it makes it easier for them to make better choices. Sometimes there's been some slipping and sliding along the dietary regime as people go along during the course of the year. It reboots the gut microbiome, it tends to enhance cognitive capacities as well as probably

Starting point is 00:48:55 brain serotonin and dopamine levels. It can affect people's mood states and just how they feel about themselves in the world around them. It's obviously not as dramatic as when you take a person that's in agonizing pain or debility and you see those dramatic changes. What about then if I want to just lose some weight? What protocol should I use for water fasting and what kind of results would I expect to see in what time frame? We never know exactly how long a patient's going to fast until we see how they respond to fasting because fasting itself is as much diagnostic as it is therapeutic. But usually we can get a pretty good idea. Like, for example, I always like to try to get people as close to their

Starting point is 00:49:34 optimum weight as possible, whether it's with diet and exercise or with fasting. We don't think maintaining extra fat is a good thing. We think for every pound of excess fat you have on your body, there's all kinds of downstream consequences. And so if a person, say, for example, 20 pounds overweight, they feel best, say 150 pounds, but they're 170 pounds. We know that it will take them about three weeks to lose that weight because people lose an average of about a pound a day. So I wouldn't have any concern assuming everything else looks okay fasting that person for three weeks. I'd be concerned about fasting them into an emaciated state. I don't want to get them very weak. I don't want to have them debilitated. I don't want to get them depleted. And so we're

Starting point is 00:50:14 going to monitor them carefully to make sure that we're well within their their reserves. But you know, a person that's a bit overweight that has maybe their blood pressure is a little bit higher, their blood sugar is a little bit higher. Maybe they have some joint pain. Maybe they have some various symptoms. We want those things to resolve. So we're going to estimate how long do we think this person's going to need to fast? To get to the point when they feed, they'll keep getting healthier rather than sicker.

Starting point is 00:50:39 Can you explain these four graphs to me here? There's some four graphs that come from work you've done. Okay, well, this is outcome data that comes from studies that we've published. And this basically is looking at the percent body weight change. change. And if you look at the bottom graph, you'll notice it's over time. Yeah. Okay? So we're looking at the percentage body weight change during fasting. And you notice during refeating, it actually comes down a little bit more, even though people are re-alimenting.

Starting point is 00:51:10 They're losing fat. They're regaining water and muscle. And then they're able to maintain that percent body change. This is 65-day follow-up. So on that for people that aren't watching the video right now and are just listening to audio, what is it essentially saying happens? And in what? period of time with what protocol? So in this particular study, these people lost about 10% of their body weight over an average of two weeks of fasting. They refed for a week at the facility, and then they were followed up 65 days later. And at 65 days later, you'll notice they'd maintained their total body weight change, and then just a little bit more. And now they'd been

Starting point is 00:51:48 back to eating and exercising. In the next graph, the percent body weight, this is the visceral. fat mass. And visceral fat, again... Fisual fat is the 10% of the fat that makes up the fat that typically accumulates around the belly and in the organs. It's the fat that's hypertrophic, hypermetabolic, hyper, it produces inflammation, it acts like a tumor. It shouldn't be there.

Starting point is 00:52:10 There's subcutaneous, which is on the outside. Right. And then there's visceral, which is in the inside, and the stuff in the inside is the worst. It's fat that wouldn't normally be there. Here's the problem. You evolved in an environment of scarcity. Storing fat is so critical. to survival in a world of deficiency or of depletion, that the body does everything it can to store fat

Starting point is 00:52:32 because the people that store fat in a natural setting, they live to reproduce. In the modern world, it's become a disadvantage because we live in this very natural environment where you can get dietary excess. And so even though the body's designed for an environment of deficiency, it's responding with that genetic programming.

Starting point is 00:52:48 And so it stores fat, even though it's not helpful for you. As far as the body's concerned, spring might come late, the more fat you store, the better. And as a consequence, that visceral fat is associated with these diseases of dietary excess. In fasting, the body preferentially mobilizes that visceral fat. It gets rid of it. Just like if you go on a fast and have a breast tumor, you lose 10% of your body fat. You don't necessarily lose 10% of the tumor.

Starting point is 00:53:11 You might at least 50% of the tumor. You might lose the entire tumor because the body has some intelligence to it in terms of how it's mobilizing these tissues. You can take an animal, for example, and starve it to death. And if you measure its nervous system, you'll find the nervous system isn't depleted even when it's starved to death. It will preserve those tissues in preference to the visceral fat or the fat tissues. And so this graph is showing that visceral fat not only comes down during fasting, but it keeps coming down, and it continues to come down with refeating. And this particular graph here, this is blood pressure. So again, blood pressure comes down during fasting.

Starting point is 00:53:50 it comes down even lower with refeating, and people that are following diet and lifestyle changes are able to maintain that pressure without medication. So if you look at our study, people that started with stage free hypertension, so there are 180 or higher systolic blood pressure, they lost an average of 60 points on systolic blood pressure, not counting the fact that the baselines were often taken on medication.

Starting point is 00:54:16 And the final graph here that you've got is percent in lean mass. MASS also got down in fasting because your lean mass again is your fluid your muscle lean mass goes down but then it recovers during refeating and re-alimentation and the percentage of lean mass which includes your muscle mass at six-week fall-up was actually higher in those patients than it was at baseline are they exercising there during recovery they are not during fasting okay and you mentioned PCOS earlier in when we were talking about yes the implications for women have you ever done any studies or had patients come to your fasting clinic that have symptoms of PCOF?

Starting point is 00:54:52 Yes, we've had dozens and dozens of patients with polycystic ovarian syndrome. And it's a condition that responds consistently to fasting. It also responds to diet and lifestyle change. But understand, many of the people that have made the diet changes but are not been successful are then referred to us for fasting. We always want to try the diet first because a lot of things resolve just by getting a person on a good diet and exercise program. And PCOS, for people that don't know, I'm sure a lot of men don't know about PCOS, but some

Starting point is 00:55:19 of them will because they might have fertility problems with their partner. My partner's been very public that she has PCOS and she's found that the ketogenic diet, removing sugar from her diet, has had a profound impact on recalibrating her menstrual cycle. Her menstrual cycle was very inconsistent, irregular, could be up to 60 days or longer or not at all. And then when she removed sugar from her diet and carbohydrates, it's now perfect. Right. So it's like every 28, whatever days it is. And so I was wondering if, you know, there's lots of women that's suffering with a variety of different hormonal challenges or things like PCOS, if you have any case studies from your clinic of that resetting their menstrual cycles or, you know, reversing the symptoms of

Starting point is 00:56:06 PCOS. Right. It's not uncommon for us to have women that, for example, have their plumbing's good in terms of their tubes and whatnot, but they're having difficulty initiating pregnancy. They fast, they reboot, and sure enough, within a cycle or two, you know, they're able to achieve pregnancy. And it's not unusual to have people that have disrupted dysmenorrhea, menorrhage, etc. Within, usually not the very first cycle, but the second cycle will normalize function. I think the reason for that is the hormones and stuff that for the next cycle are already kind of set up and where you see the change is often, you know, at that six-week follow-up.

Starting point is 00:56:42 So let's be clear, because if you fast, it is a form of stress on the body, isn't it? From everything I know about sort of evolution, if you're fasting, your menstrual cycle's probably going to stop, if you're doing an extended fast, because your body sends a signal to say, listen, we don't have the resources in here to give a kid life. So we're going to shut down. If you take yourself below optimum weight or below optimum fat, yes, that's true. Disruption of menstrual cycle happens with excess weight loss of any kind or rapid weight loss. But for the patients that we're fasting, oftentimes it's quite the opposite. They're able to actually normal. their hormonal cycle. And as I mentioned, it may be the conversion of estradiol to estriol because of improvement in the gut microbiome that's responsible for normalization of that and other hormonal issues that maybe we haven't even been able to measure yet. Because your body needs energy to perform its menstrual cycle.

Starting point is 00:57:33 Am I right in my thinking there that if the body senses you don't have the energy to have a baby, it's going to shut down your menstrual cycle because having a baby would... I think if it doesn't have the reserves, So if you're in an, the thing is, many patients, though, even though they're fasting, they aren't in a depleted state. And so you don't see universal disruption of menstrual function because people are fasting. But, you know, athletes oftentimes see it when their percent body fat goes too low, they will become aminearic. Do you see when someone comes to your clinic and does one of these extended fasts that there's other areas of their life that also improve that are completely sort of like unrelated to the benefits for? from the fast. And I'm talking about world power here and their ability to motivate themselves

Starting point is 00:58:21 and be disciplined and persistent. I don't think there's any question that those factors are involved. You know, it's also just education and fear. People think if they get on a plane in New York and they flew to California, they would die of starvation over Colorado. They think the pretzels that they ate saved their life. And once people have fasted for five days or 10 days or 40 days, the idea of having to skip a meal doesn't seem quite so terrifying. You know, if there's not something that's healthfully eating, they just skip the meal until the next one. And they're not afraid of that they're going to die or that they're going to enter starvation or they're going to have depletion. A lot of people have a lot of fear in their head that's completely illogical,

Starting point is 00:59:01 unnecessary, and harmful. It's so true. When you tell me that someone can actually fast for, what's the longest a person could fast for without severe consequences? They say that a 70 kilogram male could fast about 70 days, but the longest we fast people is 40 days. And what happens is you get beyond 40 days, everything gets a little bit more delicate. You have to be a lot more careful with the electrolyte balance and other things. And so 40 days, understand, it's only 1% of our patients. The vast majority are fasting between two weeks and four weeks. So it's 10 days or 14 days or 20 days.

Starting point is 00:59:34 That's where the big bell curve is. You have a small number of people that need to fast longer than that. And you see this as a medical intervention. You don't see this as something that these people should be doing. on a frequent monthly basis. You see this as a medical intervention for people with specific issues, predominantly. I think that everybody should fast every day

Starting point is 00:59:54 for 12 hours. I think that everybody, including healthy people, would probably should at least consider fasting once a year for a week, and that anybody that has a condition where it's appropriate to fast should fast however long it takes to resolve the condition, however frequently it takes to get well.

Starting point is 01:00:10 So we do have some patients that we're fasting two or three times during a year because they can't fast long enough the first fast to resolve the condition, but they don't have enough reserves to be able to do a longer fast. So we will do it periodically until the condition resolves. And what are the safety concerns with water fasts? Yeah, well, the biggest and most obvious concerns are orthostatic hypotension. When people are used to having high blood pressure and you lower their pressure, their brains

Starting point is 01:00:40 used to higher profusion levels. When you drop the pressure, they can get dizzy at first until they get used to having normal blood pressure, and you don't want people falling over and fainting and, you know, breaking something or having a problem. Dehydration is an hormetic effect of fasting, and it's an important part of stimulating the healing crisis. But you also don't want to get somebody so depleted that they get into, you know, cardiac dysrhythmia or they have, you know, problems. And that's why we monitor for people twice a day and we make sure that, you know, they maintain balance. You know, one of the things we did in Can Fasting Save Your Life is we laid out all the protocols of fasting. So a person could really

Starting point is 01:01:15 understand what's going on in fasting, you know, what the benefits are. But we also wrote it so that their physicians would stop thinking they're crazy because they're interested in doing something like that. Because at first blush, this sounds like kind of crazy, that you're going to have a person take nothing but water for a prolonged period of time and somehow that's going to be a good thing. But when you really look at the science and you look at the experience we've had, you found that when it's done according to protocol, it is a safe and it can be a an effective intervention, it giving the body a chance to heal itself. What are the big misconceptions about fasting that you encounter consistently?

Starting point is 01:01:53 Well, one thing is people think that you're going to become depleted because they don't understand the recycling capacity of the body when fasting is done properly and that they're going to deplete their muscles and that the weight they lose in fasting is immediately regained after fasting. So there's no beneficial proportioning of the body composition. and they're driven by the fear, and I think instinctive fear, that we're designed to be intimately concerned about getting enough to eat because in a natural setting that's a constant biological imperative.

Starting point is 01:02:25 You're always struggling, try to get enough to eat. And because we live in a constant state of deprivation in a natural setting, the use of fasting was never anything other than a survival tool, an adaption the body could make only under force, not by choice. But it is interesting that every major religion, Jews, the Jains, the Hindus, the Muslims, the Christians, the Buddhist, all have a deep respect and tradition about fasting. There's a reason, because it changes the way you feel about yourself and the world around you. It's so linked to spiritual traditions like meditation

Starting point is 01:02:59 and clarity of mind and spiritual experiences. And I think because it is difficult to do that some of the benefits you mentioned earlier may be part of the, you know, part that are hard for us to quantify. Yeah. What is the most important thing we haven't talked about as it pertains to fasting that we should have talked about? We haven't talked about the different kinds of mechanisms which might be going on in fasting that sometimes people are interested.

Starting point is 01:03:24 We've talked about weight loss. You know, that's kind of an obvious one. If you don't eat, you're going to lose weight. But there's also a natuoretic effect. The body gets rid of the excess sodium accumulated in the body. And that has a profound effect because literally people will lose several pounds of fluid a day early on in fasting just because the body's been holding on to this in order to buffer the effect of sodium. Sodium, you know, if you think about it, you take

Starting point is 01:03:48 a tablespoon if it's an emetic, it'll make you throw up. If you take enough of it, it'll kill you. It'll actually have, there's an LD-50 with it. Even though it's an essential nutrient in small amounts, in excess quantity, it's associated with hypertension, and not to mention obesity. And you might say, well, why would sodium, which has no calories, make people fat? And it's because sodium stimulates what's called passive overeating. So if you eat to your full of anything, say brown rice, you just eat till you reach your satiety you don't want anymore. Everything else being equal, salt that rice up and eat to your full. You'll eat more before you feel satisfied. And people say, yeah, because it tastes better. But that's what tasting better means. It means it

Starting point is 01:04:30 results in more dopamine stimulation in the brain. So your brain is going to get fooled with salt. And if you take some foods, like for example, bread, the staff of life, 1,500 calories, pound before you turn it into a butter boat and spread coagulated cow pus all over it and you remove the salt, oil, sugar, and yeast, what do you get? It's called matzah and it's punishment on Passover. Nobody's getting fat eaten matza, but they're certainly having trouble with bread and bread-related products. And it's because the wheat and the water become a carrier agent for these chemicals. Take beef, boil it, and gnaw on it. Do you like plain boiled beef? Not so much. It's a carrier agent for the sauce is the salt, the things that it's carrying to the palate. So we're using ultra-processed

Starting point is 01:05:13 foods as carrier agents for these chemicals, and that's why we're in trouble. Seventy percent of the calorie of the average person is ultra-processed foods. And we haven't even talked about the chemicals and other things besides the salt and sugar, the emulsifiers, the other things that are thought to affect gut microbiome, et cetera. So the naturetic effect of fasting is a kind of rebooting effect that gets rid of the sodium. We haven't talked about detoxification. If you take a fat biopsy of human beings? A fat biopsy. What's that?

Starting point is 01:05:40 A biopsy. You take a piece of fat or a piece of tissue and you analyze it. What you find is there's hundreds of different chemicals, PCB, dioxin, pesticide revenues, heavy metals. In everybody, to varying degrees, people have different degrees of vulnerability to that. In fasting, the body rapidly mobilizes those materials and eliminates them. In fact, some people have said, oh, does it so efficiently, you shouldn't fast, that the body doesn't know what it's doing and it would put it out too quickly and it overloaded your system. and so don't do it.

Starting point is 01:06:08 But the reality is this is a biological adaptation. It does a good job of mobilizing the materials and eliminating them. If you take that fat biopsy and you say, where did all those toxins come from? As much as 90% of some of those toxins came from eating animal foods, which biologically concentrate those pollution in their environment. Then you eat the animal food, you get its entire lifetime accumulation of toxins. And so when you fast, you kick in the system you use to get rid of that stuff. and every time you do it, it gets better.

Starting point is 01:06:38 And so these are things that don't necessarily happen to the same degree with our juice fasting or our modified feeding regimes. We talked about the autonomic nervous system. This is the part of the nervous system that controls all the stuff you don't think about. Like, for example, if you were to go out running and your heart didn't speed up,

Starting point is 01:06:57 you would be in big trouble and potentially die. But it doesn't happen because your heart automatically speeds up and pumps more blood that you need. and that's controlled by the autonomic or automatic nervous system. It has two parts, the sympathetic and the parasympathetic. They have to be in balance. And we've invented hundreds of healing systems to try to rebalance the autonomic nervous system.

Starting point is 01:07:19 Massage, biofeedback, homeopathy, chiropractic manipulation, osteopathic manipulation, acupuncture, relaxation, biofeedback. How do you think all these things make people feel better? At least to some degree, it's to the degree that help rebalance the autonomic nervous system. The most powerful way to rebalance the autonomic nervous system in my experience is fasting. Fasting is a profound impact on this autonomic, sympathetic, parasympathetic balance. And I think one of the most profound effects, honestly, is effect on taste neuro adaptation. As I mentioned, we did a study on how you taste things.

Starting point is 01:07:57 And when you go on a fast, good food start to taste good. When you first come off a conventional diet, this kind of food is. disgusting tasteless swill. People have no interest in it. They can't imagine how anybody could choke it down. What kind of food? Well, whole fruits, vegetables, you know, simple foods without salt, oil, and sugar attitude. They just can't even imagine how anybody could eat that. But after fasting, whole plant foods start to taste good. And the longer you eat them, the better they taste. It gets to the point where you actually would prefer to eat whole plant foods rather than the salty, greasy, fatty, processed foods that everybody else is eating. So these are big changes

Starting point is 01:08:34 that occur in fasting, that are not necessarily as easily objectified from a research standpoint, but have a profound difference on how people feel and how they live their lives. Yeah, I noticed that as well. When I was on the ketogenic diet, I noticed that the things that I would usually get cravings for, suddenly there was no cravings at all. And funny enough, when you're talking about taste changing, when I was on a ketogenic diet, things tasted sweeter. And I don't mean, I actually don't mean, because obviously I wasn't really eating much sugar, it was actually some sugar-free drinks just tasted significantly sweeter. There were zero-sugar drinks, but clearly because there's some of the sweetness in there,

Starting point is 01:09:12 I almost couldn't drink them. But when I came off the ketogenic diet and I started having carbohydrates again, those drinks didn't taste so sweet anymore. But it's your palate that changes. The ketogenic diet is a fasting and mimicking diet. It mimics some of the effects of fasting, not the least of which is changes in taste, what's called taste, neurotatation, or sensitivity. And it's not carbohydrates that desensitize you.

Starting point is 01:09:32 It's refined carbohydrates. And so if you get people on a whole plant food diet, you know, fruits and vegetables, a whole, whole simple foods, they maintain that acuity of taste. But as soon as you put them back on refined carbohydrates, the processed carbohydrates, then they begin to go back into the dietary pleasure trap. Got you. This one change has transformed how my team and I move, train and think about our bodies. When Dr. Daniel Lieberman came on the Dyer of a CEO, he explained how modern shoes with their cushioning and support are making our feel

Starting point is 01:10:03 weaker and less capable of doing what nature intended them to do. We've lost the natural strength and mobility in our feet and this is leading to issues like back pain and knee pain. I'd already purchased a pair of Viva barefoot shoes so I showed them to Daniel Lieberman and he told me that they were exactly the type of shoe that would help me restore natural foot movement and rebuild my strength but I think it was plantificitis that I had where suddenly my feet started hurting all the time and after that I decided to start strengthening my own foot by using the Viva Barefoot. And research from Liverpool University has backed this up. They've shown that wearing Vivo Barefoot shoes for six months can increase foot strength by up to 60%. Visit Vivo Barefoot.com

Starting point is 01:10:42 slash DOAC and use Code Diary 20 from my sponsor for 20% off. A strong body starts with strong feet. And I guess what is the, what is the next step if someone is curious? What do you, what would you recommend they do? Well, we have a, I think, a really valuable free service for your viewers, and that's that if they go to our website and complete the registration forms at trunorthhealth.com, I offer a free phone conversation with them to tell them whether this might be something they should be considering and try to point them in the right direction. If they're really interested, they can read our book in Fasting Save Your Life, and it will tell you and your doctor everything you need to know about what it takes to safely get

Starting point is 01:11:24 into a fast, through a fast, and what the benefits of fasting are thought to be. I'll link all of that below for anybody that is curious and wants to learn more. And just as a sort of a disclaimer, if people are doing water fasting, they should seek medical advice and medical support. They should seek a consultation from someone who knows what they're doing before just trying to do this at home. They want to make sure they're a good candidate with history exam and lab. They want to make sure if they do fast, they're fasting in a restful state,

Starting point is 01:11:58 staying hydrated properly, and that they refueled. carefully because it can be a serious problem if you don't do it properly. Is there a particular case study that comes to mind when you think about the power of fasting? I know you talked a little bit about the lady that had lymphomy, which I read about in the British Medical Journal in, I think it was 2015 that it was published. I think even more powerful than individual case reports are these studies that we've done involving dozens and in some cases almost 200 people and the consistency of the data. This works is the most effective treatment that's ever been shown in treating the leading cause of death and disability,

Starting point is 01:12:34 which is high blood pressure and its consequences. If a person has essential hypertension and they fast long enough, they're going to normalize their blood pressure. And if they're willing to do dangerous and radical things like eat well, exercise, and get to bed on time, they can sustain those results. We have a closing tradition on this podcast where the last guest leaves a question for the next guest, not knowing who they're leaving it for. And the question left for you is quite a tricky one of it, but it's interesting. it is what is the biggest lie that you think is ruining most people's life I think one of the biggest mistakes is that people think that health comes from pills potions powders and treatments instead of healthful living health is the direct result of healthful living and that means diet sleep exercise

Starting point is 01:13:18 but they're hard especially in the world we live in where you know everything I see is trying to play with the neurotrans chemicals in my brain to get me to be addicted and to well people are trying to sell the pleasure trap they're trying to tell you what you want to hear or not what you need to know what you want to hear is that there's a way to not do hard things but still get good benefits

Starting point is 01:13:39 and what you need to know is how to do hard things so you can be successful I think that's like the defining trait of the 21st century is like your ability to do what you know you should for long term benefits not short term benefits I think like delayed gratification is maybe the defining trait of the like the 21st century

Starting point is 01:13:56 I mean, we've all heard of like those cookie experiments they did on those kids to see which kids would take the cookie and which ones would wait for two cookies later. But I think the further in my life I've gone, the more I've realized that actually, like, every self-help book ever written could be one page and it could just say, like, delay gratification, like do the thing that is in the best interest of long-term view versus short-term view. I think that there's three characteristics that everybody should aspire for, whether it's it's a mate, whether it's an employee, or whether it's a friend, what you really are looking

Starting point is 01:14:32 for is honesty, integrity, and intelligence. So honesty means they're going to tell the truth. Integrity is they're going to do the right thing. And intelligence means they're going to do things right. And that applies for ourselves, right, as well. Would it be honest and have high integrity and be intelligent with your own decisioning? I think those are the characteristics that determine both success, but more importantly, happiness. The people that I meet that are happy have high degrees of all three of those things. Some people are very intelligent, but they don't necessarily do the right thing. Some people are honest, but they'll tell the truth, but they won't necessarily tell the whole truth.

Starting point is 01:15:18 So you have to have all three, I think, to have a high degree of probability of success. And what are you working on at the moment? What's keeping you busy at this moment in time? We're in the process of getting ready to launch a major study. We're going to enroll between 2 and 3,000 people for the rest of their life. And we're going to track them and try to see if we can avoid the average 16 years of debility that greet people at the end of their life. We believe with diet, sleep, exercise, and periodic fasting, we can avoid the debility that's so common. And that make the last 20 years of people's lives the best years of their life instead of the worst. You know, you said at your clinic, you, 1% of patients do the 40-day fast. Who are those patients? What are they suffering with? What are they struggling with? Because that's pretty extreme.

Starting point is 01:16:09 One woman was a dentist who'd had a traumatic brain injury secondary to getting hit by a pole, an outdoor pole at a, ironically enough, a continuing education conference. And she'd developed a headache. And she'd had constant daily head pain from 8 to 10 every minute. every day for 16 years. And she came in and fasted for 41 days, during which time she resolved to a large extent her headaches. She refed, she had some pro-dromal symptoms, minor, you know, symptoms, and then did a second 40-day fast six months later. And now it's been 12 years she has no headaches. So in her case, she was motivated by, like a lot of our patients, pain, ability, and fear of death. And they were willing to do anything in order to be able to get well, including,

Starting point is 01:16:51 you know, a long period of fasting. So the people that fast a lot of, long time, oftentimes are very motivated individuals, mostly motivated by, you know, physical health goals. Not always. Some people are doing fasting for spiritual or other types of practices. But most of the people we have are just people that have not been successful resolving their conditions with diet and lifestyle change, with medications and drugs. And, you know, they say that it should be the True North Health Center, the last resort. One of my colleagues, May He Rest in Peace, John McDougall used to say we were the punishment. And if he had a patient that he would do the dietary changes with it, but that it wasn't successful at fully resolving the problem,

Starting point is 01:17:31 he would apologize to them and say, I'm so sorry, but you need to go to Goldhammer's place. Good luck to you. Because he thought that was one of the more difficult things that people were ever asked to do. I think it is the most difficult thing you ask people to do, not the fasting. That's not that difficult. What's difficult is to go back and live in a world designed to make you fat, sick and miserable, and try to live healthfully and live with integrity and deal with the social outflux of being successful. As I said, a lot of times the people that I see that have the easiest time are the ones that aren't necessarily the most sociable kind of people. Thank you so much for the work that you do because it's fascinating and you're providing another

Starting point is 01:18:10 alternative treatment to people who are very often out of choice. Before I came here today, my wife said, don't be nervous to talk to, him because it's just like, you know, I speak a hundred times a year to 50 to 100 people. And I say, yeah, Jennifer, it's just like talking to 50 to 100 people, except doing it every day for 400 years. Thanks for getting the word out. Well, no, my audience are open-minded, they're smart, they're savvy, they're curious, I hope as well, so it's really fascinating.

Starting point is 01:18:43 And I think, you know, when we think about these longer fasts, we often focus on the physiological changes that are going to take place. Like we talked about the glycogen reserves being depleted and the ketone bodies and all these things and the Bethlehemite or whatever that big word was. But I actually think there's the really unappreciated part of all of this is the psychological change that takes place. When you realize that you can accomplish something,

Starting point is 01:19:07 but also, as you said, when you sort of rebalance and reset your dopamine levels, and when your taste adapt, your taste adapt, to the fasted state and how that can act as an intervention, a psychological and physiological intervention, just to reset you a little bit.

Starting point is 01:19:29 Every year, I do ketosis at least once, maybe sometimes twice or three times. I have a ketogenic diet. And it is, it's like a tremendous reset of my habits. Like, resets my habits. It resets my urges, my craving. Think about when a patient goes to a medical doctor and they say, or I have high blood pressure,

Starting point is 01:19:46 and they say, listen, we promise you, If you do exactly what we tell you, we guarantee you, you'll never get well. You'll be sick the rest of your life and you'll be on these drugs forever. And there's not a one I've had so far that that turns out to be true for. It changes their entire paradigm. When they get overcome the problem that supposedly is helpless and hopeless and nothing can be done, it changes their view of reality. Of course.

Starting point is 01:20:14 I mean, what you're speaking to there is learned helplessness where if someone tells you there's nothing you can do then you fall into, I mean the studies show this you fall into a state of learned helplessness where you actually stop trying to help yourself and you submit I was reading, I was actually reading a study the other day about rats who fell into a state of learned helplessness because they won't even try them or yeah

Starting point is 01:20:35 well that's a really good example the same happens with humans if someone tells you something can't change you're stuck you're fucked when you're ready to have a life-changing experience we love you to be our guest to come to the or do a bit of a fast. I'm telling you, you're a great candidate. You'll have a intense, but, you know, positive experience. And we'll make sure that if you walk in, you walk out. Okay, good. That's a prerequisite of my visit. Thank you so much, Dr. Corbyn, and keep doing what you're

Starting point is 01:21:02 doing. Thank you. Thank you. Make sure you keep what I'm about to say to yourself. I'm inviting 10,000 of you to come even deeper into the diary of a CEO. Welcome to my inner circle. This is a brand new private community that I'm launching to the world. We have so many incredible things that happen, that you are never shown. We have the briefs that are on my iPad when I'm recording the conversation. We have clips we've never released. We have behind the scenes conversations with the guests and also the episodes that we've never, ever released. And so much more. In the circle, you'll have direct access to me. You can tell us what you want this show to be, who you want us to interview, and the types of conversations you would love us to have.

Starting point is 01:21:42 But remember, for now, we're only inviting the first 10,000 people that join before it closes. So if you want to join our private close community, head to the link in the description below or go to doac circle.com. I will speak to you there. Thank you.

The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett - Water Fasting Scientist: Surprising Link Between Fasting & Cancer! Fasting Completely Resets Your Gut Microbiome!

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