The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett - World Leading Mindset Expert: How To Reach Your Full Potential - Matthew Syed

Episode Date: June 14, 2021

My guest this week is Matthew Syed, he has written some of the most important books in the self development, self improvement, team, company building space. His ideas are original, challenging and important. He is a British journalist, author, broadcaster and former table tennis player. He competed as an English table tennis international, and was the English number one for many years. He was three times the men's singles champion at the Commonwealth Table Tennis Championships (in 1997, 2000 and 2001), and also competed for Great Britain in two Olympic Games, at Barcelona in 1992 and at Sydney in 2000. After leaving the world of table tennis he embarked on a journalism career working for The Times. Throughout his career he has published four books that are highly regarded taking all of the learnings across his life as an elite level sports man and journalist. To say this conversation is diverse would be an understatement, we covered everything from creating innovation, build confidence and how to reach your full potential. This man is fascinating, engaging and thought provoking, trust me when I say you need to hear this. Follow Matthew: Twitter - https://twitter.com/matthewsyed Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/matthewsyedauthor Website - https://www.matthewsyed.co.uk Follow me: https://beacons.ai/diaryofaceo

Quick one. Just wanted to say a big thank you to three people very quickly. First people I want to say thank you to is all of you that listen to the show. Never in my wildest dreams is all I can say. Never in my wildest dreams did I think I'd start a podcast in my kitchen and that it would expand all over the world as it has done. And we've now opened our first studio in America, thanks to my very helpful team led by Jack on the production side of things. So thank you to Jack and the team for building out the new American studio. And thirdly to to Amazon Music, who when they heard that we were expanding to the United States, and I'd be recording a lot more over in the States, they put a massive billboard in Times Square for the show. So thank you so much, Amazon Music. Thank you to our team. And

thank you to all of you that listened to this show. Let's continue. In a fixed mindset, people think that success is all about talent, having the gift. A growth mindset is saying, OK, talent obviously matters. It's a factor, but it's not enough. It's what we do with our talents. I wasn't the best table tennis player in the world. I never got into the top 20 of the world rankings. But with that attitude, I maximized my own potential.

I think leadership counts when it comes to innovation. I mean, the way Amazon conduct meetings, and then when they start talking, the most senior person always speaks last. You're getting unvarnished access to the insights of your brilliant team rather than speaking first and everyone basically converging

on what you as a leader has just said. There are a lot of people with truly brilliant ideas, huge potential, who never act on their dreams but having the idea doesn't mean a thing you've actually got to act on that idea honestly i think we shouldn't underestimate how damaging it can be if Matthew Saeed he's written some of the most important challenging thought-provoking books in the self-development self-improvement team development team building company building leadership space and his ideas are original they are are challenging. They are fresh. They are important. He was an elite level sportsman and his ideas come from the world of sport,

but also the world of business, from politics, from writing, from culture, from society. He evangelizes about diverse thinking, about including more ideas, about challenging leadership, about challenging yourself, about what it takes to start, and why most people spend their life sitting on ideas that could potentially change their life, but are seemingly imprisoned, trapped, and blocked by their own mindset. He talks about how some of the most talented people in the world can fall short of their potential, and how some people with seemingly no talent at all can achieve miraculous things. If you apply the learnings from this conversation, I have no doubt that it will make you a better person. It will make your teams more innovative, and it'll lead

you to living a more fulfilled life. So without further ado, I'm Stephen Bartlett, and this is The Direvice CEO. I hope nobody's listening, but if you are then please keep this to yourself Matthew everyone wants to be successful Everybody I don't know one person that doesn't want to be successful. So I think It's probably quite important to define what that word means under your own definition of that word. The holistic definition, not just a professional definition, but how would you define that? Well, look, it's great to be here, Steve. I think that's quite a deep question, quite a philosophical one. We're only just getting started. I know,

what kind of opening question is this? Obviously, as a former sports person, I was a table tennis professional for a number of years. Success was defined in terms of winning matches and achieving very clear, tangible objectives, like winning the national championships or the Commonwealth. But I think when it comes to life beyond sport, it's so objective in something like the 100-metre sprint. You want to beat your PB.

And you can see it on a digital readout at the end of a race, how close you've come or whether you've achieved that objective. In the life beyond sport, I have to say, one of the things that is quite difficult, I think, for sports people to transition is it's more elusive, more subjective, more ephemeral. And I think it is a really difficult thing to define what you personally mean by success. I'm not 100% sure that I've defined it for myself yet. Have you?

Well, I'm getting closer on a in a professional sense i what i would how i'd answer that question is i'd say i think i'm successful if in my professional life if i am striving if i'm taking on a worthwhile challenge with people i love so the key terms there are worthwhile subjective define how you like challenge which i think is um integral to being motivated and getting up in the morning and and you know all the emotions you need to be internally uh internally fulfilled and motivated and then with people i love which i think is just a really which speaks to community and human interaction which i think is part of our human yeah and the look, that makes a lot of sense to me. I have to say one thing that,

given what you've just said, you'll probably agree with. I think the narrow way that success has sometimes been defined in Western capitalist societies has been deeply mistaken, that it's all about how much money you have in your bank account. And I think we all know, although, you know, it's a bit of a cliche to say that it doesn't provide happiness, certainly not of a sustained nature. I think that that thing about social interaction, the thing that makes me happiest for sure is putting one's heart and soul into a project, like for example, writing a book, and then getting a letter from somebody who explains in their own way how it has positively impacted their life. And there is no feeling like that for me as a writer. And that really

is a powerful engine to motivate you to come up with a new idea for a new book. The fact that you know it has meaning for other people, not that they've paid money to buy it and that money has been transferred via a publisher into my bank account. That is much less significant. I mean, it's great if you do get money for it. You can look after your kids or you can do something with it. But it's that feedback, that sense of making some kind of a difference. I mean, in a funny kind of a way, that's why for a long time, as I came towards the end of my television career, I wanted to go into politics. I thought that is the place where you can make the most difference, right?

You've got the levers to do something interesting. And then I realised it was not quite as fun an avenue, perhaps, as writing. Why is it that human beings seem to get so much intrinsic joy from helping others? I think this is of great and deep significance. And just to put a historical lens on this, after the Enlightenment, the idea was of human beings as individuals. Individualism was the great goal of political life. And I think we conceived of people as deciding to interact with other people, deciding to have families. And you might remember Margaret Thatcher once said, there's no such thing as society. There are just individual men and women and families. I mean, she had more to say after

that. It wouldn't be fair to say that was her entire philosophy by any means. I think she was a great prime minister in many ways. But if you actually go back deeper in human history, when our ancestors lived at the same time as the Neanderthals, the Neanderthals had probably bigger brains than us. They may have been individually smarter, but humans lived in tighter, more socially connected groups. What does that mean? It means if somebody learns something useful, they can share it with one of their kin. And therefore, they can also share it with their children. They can get a cross-pollination of ideas. They can bring ideas together, and then it gets passed down the generations.

And it was that sociality that conferred a competitive advantage on our ancestors above Neanderthals. It is, I think, our distinctive quality. We are social beings to an extent greater, I think, than any others, except the insects like ants ants who for slightly different evolutionary reasons cooperate at scale and there's an element of virtue signaling social media that sort of seems to have exacerbated this amongst my generation in particular who all seem to want to change the world but can't necessarily tell you what they want to change

they just want to be a person that's changed the world. That's interesting. That's interesting because about a decade ago, I started looking at, now I'm, I believe it or not, 50. You look great. Well, I was going to say, do you remember Oil of Ulay? No. That's probably the slightly older people will remember.

I don't use that, by the way. But I started looking at how aspirations have changed since I was in my childhood. So when I was at university, everyone wanted to work for the UN. That was kind of considered the great sort of panacea of life. But 10 years ago, a lot of people were saying in surveys of young people, what do you want to do in life? What do you want to be in life? And the answer was famous.

Yeah. Famous. Not to have a body of work that gives you fame you know to walk down you know you want to walk down the red carpet having created an amazing film but no they just wanted the red carpet and i thought that was that was a dangerous thing and i i'm sure there's been a correction since then but i think the obsession there's been no correction and i think maybe in some respects, it's got worse. I've just, it's a real phenomenon I've noticed in my generation where

after I'll come off stage doing a public speech, whatever, kids will come up to me and say, I want to be a public speaker too. And I'm like, I never wanted to be. I pursued my desire to start a business and a by-product of that was they pay me to speak on stage now. And fame also, in my view, should be a byproduct of the pursuit of something that's intrinsically important to you, right? Absolutely 100% correct. And that's why the obsession with fame is a massive danger,

I think, to a culture. The thing about speaking, so a completely unintended side effect of writing my first book. So I'm finishing table tennis and I'm like, you know, what am I going to do with the rest of my life? You know, how am I going to define success? And I decided to write this book in 2000, when did it come out? 2010, called Bounce. And an unintended side effect was being invited to give a speech at a big corporation, an investment bank, an American investment bank. And obviously, you know know as an ex-ping-pong player i'm thinking what is going on here you know how am i supposed you know imposter syndrome and also you know i went to a school into a comp you know we didn't do any almost no public speaking you know we we learned stuff we learned things in the classroom but the idea of getting up and

and speaking in front of an audience was kind of very alien. So I wasn't that good, right? Because I hadn't practiced that. I'd never done it before. And I came off the stage and I thought, you know what? I'm just not cut out for this. If I'm invited again to give a talk to a company, I'll just politely decline. Then I thought, and it took me about 48 hours to think, what a ridiculous way to hijack my own development. If you actually had the right attitude, if you had the right mindset, you can probably learn these skills and take advantage of these brilliant opportunities because you always learn, don't you, when you go and speak at an organization. So I googled public speaking practice. And the first hit was called Toastmasters. And this is like a global network of just public speaking clubs where other normal

people go to the club to develop social confidence. And the one nearest me in Richmond was in Twickenham, just over the bridge. And there was Franco, worked at Lloyd's on the high street, and just a group of normal, and you give a speech, they'd give you feedback. And the mentoring was a really important part of it, because you need a bit of feedback and what you could have done better. And then about two-thirds of the way through, there's something called table topics, where somebody writes a list of topics on cards, but no one else in the room knows what they are.

So you have to go to the front, you pick it up, and then turn around and spontaneously talk for a minute on whatever topic. The first one I ever did was the Natural History Museum. You know, that's terrifying, right? You're not used to it. But you learn and you develop that skill. So learning how to speak publicly, it took me three or four years. And I'm not saying I'm brilliant at it now by any means,

but my goodness, how much better when you have a can-do attitude towards it. And that brings us to the topic of mindset, really nicely. You know, I've heard you talk about having a growth mindset and a fixed mindset. What is the difference between the two? So I think, thank you, for what it's worth, I think this contrast is so important. I mean, I can talk about it through my own life, but, you know, in a fixed mindset, people think that success, however defined, is all about talent, having the gift, having the genetic inheritance, having the personality trait in order to excel.

A growth mindset is saying, okay, talent obviously matters. It's a factor, but it's not enough. It's what we do with our talents. So people in a fixed mindset have two massive risks. One, they think they're so talented, they don't even need to try. So think of a young person who's just been invited to join the Manchester United Academy, and they're suddenly getting money into their bank account. They're able to buy the fast car, and they think, I'm God's gift. And the amount of academy coaches who have come to me and said, we don't understand it. We had this hardworking youngster. We invited them into the academy, and then they just went off the rails.

It's a fixed mindset. They think their success is assured, so they stop putting in the hard yards and don't transition into the first team. So that's one danger. The other danger is people who don't think they're God's gift, but like me at Goldman Sachs, you make one failure and you interpret that as meaning, I obviously don't have talent, therefore I'm just going to give up.

Do you see what I mean? Yes, that's the negative version. Yeah, so you've got the, I'm super, talent is everything, and I've got it, so therefore I don't need to try. Talent is everything, I don't have it, therefore I should give up. They're both terribly uh damaging i think a growth mindset it doesn't mean that we think we're all going to be the best speaker in the world i wasn't the best table tennis player in the world i never got into the top 20 of the

world rankings but with that attitude i maximize my own potential and going back to your thing about success that's not a bad definition now i think about it you know to try and be the best that we can be in our own lives doesn't mean we're going to be the best who ever lived you know not everyone can be muhammad ali or serena williams or or who or albert einstein but to be the best we can be i think it's something wonderful and just from my own perspective i think trying to feel one's own potential going on a journey that has some meaning there's something wonderfully um uplifting something satisfying about that too i really like the combination of those two ideas this idea of being the best you can be but realizing that

it's a pursuit towards something that you may never get to right so the journey and the journey towards being the best you can be at something which has a lot of meaning to you maybe that's the definition we were looking for i think the point you make about the journey is really really important what was it i think it was robert louis stevenson said to travel is a better thing than to arrive oh yeah in a weird kind of way i can say i talked about trying to win the nationals but first of all the nationals i remember winning going home i was living on my own in a flat in richmond i got home and i thought is that it you know what i mean it was the the fun was actually the the training and the camaraderie with my practice partners and

seeing those small improvements through time i mean that's consistent with most high performance athletes and um business people and I was reading this piece, and I think it was in the Telegraph, about Olympic depression, where you have the Olympians who train for the Olympics. And whether they get a gold medal, like Michael Phelps, who fell into depression, or whether they lose,

either way, the outcome is they just lose orientation in their life. And this is why I, and also I felt it myself when a company came along when i was 24 and offered to buy my company and i go home look at right move look at all the cars i can buy and everything and i feel this sense of emptiness and like but then what what's my life without this right and and genuinely that was like an existential crisis because i was like i can't sell this thing but the insecure broke kid in me thought he was doing this to sell this thing. Yeah. And it was just this really, you know. It's one, I think one of the deep paradoxes of the human mind. I mean, the sense of anticlimax.

Gosh. When one achieves a long cherished ambition, I want to be a millionaire. I want to buy an Aston Martin. I want to win the Olympic gold medal. I remember talking to Victoria Pendleton. Oh yeah, the Olympian. Yeah, because you live, the cyclist, yeah the olympian yeah because you live the

cyclist the olympic you know you live with this ambition it's what gets you out of bed in the morning right i want to win the olympic gold it's what when you're on the tracks she was explaining you know it's what makes you push harder because you've got this this goal this destination that's pulling you this magnet pulling you towards it then when you get it you wake up the next day and what on earth is getting you out of bed what's causing you to push yourself that's one of the reasons i think people who make money very quickly face massive many not all and this is well documented cycle i mean you'll know about the people who win lotteries, whose marriages can end, who end up in often depression. I mean, that's not a cliche.

This is well-established. And I think it's because you get something, and then it's like, what is left to pursue in life? I do some interviews for The Times, sports stars, and I mentioned Victoria Pendleton, Billie Jean King. Yeah, yeah. Exactly the same. David Beckham, Ryan Giggs.

I mean, I've interviewed most of the Ronaldo, most of the leading, many of the leading sports people, and it's the same story. And I think what I've noticed is, as you did, that capacity to take a step back and to say, you know what? I'm feeling low, feeling empty. I need to find something else that's going to galvanise me. And that's what gets people back on the saddle.

The antidote is being aware of that. And because then now when i achieve things in my life i don't come into those achievements with this expectation of exponential joy and so i can almost enjoy it more right you know yeah no i totally get that i i trying to think you know i think look just one of the things that i've noticed from my own personal life, the more busy I've got, sometimes you don't take enough time to take a step back and to say, you know, this was a great thing that happened or, or to be in the moment when something is happening with one.

Do you have kids? No, with, with one's children or wife or partner or whatever. And I'm, I think I'm slowly, you know, I write books on this stuff,

but I'm learning all the time. And that's one of the reasons I want to do the podcast. When I read about you, I thought you had such a different set of experiences to me. I'll learn a lot from you too. Let's talk about failure then, something you talk about at great length. I think, tend to believe that a lot of the reason why people don't reach their potential, however we define that, is because they are risk adverse. And failure is something they just can't, their self-esteem just can't bear. I think that's true. My own sense is that this has been

exacerbated by the social media. So you tell me how the social media, it may have changed a lot since I wrote my first book for young people. But at the time, psychologists had come up with this concept of the curse of perfectionism. And their thesis was that young people are obviously now on the social media a lot. And a lot of people, when they're putting together their social media posts, they do it in such a way as to make their lives look really good. You know, this is the holiday I just had on this wonderfully sunny beach. And, you know, they might even airbrush photos to make themselves look better. And this is my wonderful performance on the piano.

And the problem is people then start to think that success is about looking and acting in a perfect way. That's massively problematic because why would you want to try anything new, which is inherently a risk? If you're doing something the first time, you're obviously not going to be perfect. And if you do mess up, it goes back to the fixed mindset.

You draw the conclusion, well, I'm obviously not talented enough because I haven't nailed it the first time around. I think this was also bolstered by, and you're on reality television now, I think reality television, the idea of instant success, instant gratification, overnight elevation into the heavens. And if particularly young people think that success is like that, they don't realise the incremental steps you need to take to fulfil your potential. Because as you know, most businesses succeed because, you know, I don't know whether you're familiar with the

American jargon, but you know, you get a minimum viable product, you test the value proposition early, you find out the inevitable deficiencies in the prototype or the piece of software, and then you make adaptations. In Silicon Valley, they call it failing fast. In other words, they're failing fast in order to get to a better answer. If you stop the first time you fail, or if you don't try at all, you're never going to get to an answer. If you think of the history of science, science is the most successful human institution because scientists, by and large, are willing to test their hypotheses.

You know, they test it, they look at the empirical evidence, and they change it in the light of what the evidence is telling them. That is the basic pattern of science. And I think the problem, as you alluded to, is that if young people are like, goodness me, I don't want to look anything other than perfect, it destroys their capacity to grow and to have a life of fulfilment. Because J.K. Rowling put it brilliantly.

She said, the only way never to fail is never to try. But then your life is a failure because you've just stayed in your comfort zone the whole time. I see that. I resonate with all of that so much. And specifically this idea. I love the science analogy because seeing it as a hypothesis, you're right, in science, you start with a hypothesis,

you're not romantic about it, and then you go and pursuit and you you agnostically go and test it right whereas you're what you're saying is you know young people or ambitious people generally will start with a hypothesis and they will long in need for it to be perfectly correct that's right and this is also why businesses fail because founders just, they just do everything. And I failed in my first business for many years because of that,

because I was obsessed, romantic about my hypothesis being correct, not romantic about the outcome, which was trying to be a successful person. I think that's really, really significant. And I think it's a great way of framing it. Look, by the way, some scientists fall in love with their theories, and they can't adapt it. I mean, there's been a few examples during the pandemic. And by the way, I mean, I don't know if listeners are interested in this, but there's a brilliant study by Philip Tetlock,

who's an American psychologist, and he looked at forecasters. So people trying to predict next year's GDP or oil price or other things of this kind. And he found a really interesting pattern, that the highest reputation forecasters who are on television the most, on average, make the worst predictions. And can you see what is an error of ego? An error of prediction is an opportunity to adapt the model in order to make it more predictive in the long run. But if you've been on the TV and you're supposed to be the god of forecasting testing. They are brilliant at creative self-justification. I think the people who are most dangerous to companies and innovation are intelligent, highly talented people in a fixed mindset.

They're just inveterate obstacles to making the changes you need to change in order to get the business to where you want to go to or where you want the economic model to get to and so on. So I think it's the same in meetings. As you know, I'm very interested in how businesses succeed and the forum in which we take most key decisions are meetings because no one person has a monopoly on truth, so you want to talk to other people. But these can be really ineffective if people think that when someone challenges you, they're insulting you. They're not. They're testing your hypothesis. We should think of meetings as mutual hypothesis

testing so that we can collectively get to the best strategy or idea. I think when you frame it in that way, you take the stigma out of challenge and dissent and failure. Let's challenge that then. So if we've got a meeting, we've got five, 10 people around this table, we've got an intern over there, we've got the CEO there, got managers, directors around the table, one new person, one person's been here for 10 years. You've got all these different sort of dynamics of people trying to get promotions, get a pay rise. Oh my God, the CEO's at the table. I don't want to be an idiot. I don't want to say anything dumb, you know, and all of those like dynamics. How do you get those dynamics out of the way and just become focused on letting the best idea win?

Right, so this is really well studied. I think the thing to try and really convey is how dangerous the dynamics you've described can be. Because what tends to happen in a very hierarchical organization where the CEO or the team leader has discretion over pay and promotion is that people don't say what they think. They say what they think the leader wants to hear. That's fine if the leader knows everything there is to know because you're just basically ventriloquizing. So in a simple environment, you don't need to have a team, right?

You just have the leader make a decision and everyone. But when it's a difficult, complex decision, in other words, the ones that confer a competitive advantage on a business, the leader needs to hear the different perspectives to make a better judgment. But the extent to which this happens, a good example is in aviation. So I'll describe a classic case in the – aviation is a great area to study, by the way, when it comes to team dynamics. So this is United Airlines 173, and it's a flight that took off

out of Denver, Colorado in December 1978, and it's flying to Portland in Oregon. And as a plane's coming in on the final approach, the pilot pulls the lever to lower the landing gear. And you know, when you're in the cabin, you hear it go down and clicks into place. But on this occasion, there's this really loud bang, the plane kind of deviates, and a light that should illuminate on the dashboard to show that the wheels are down. It hasn't gone on. So the pilot doesn't know if the wheels are down. It's pitch black, so they can't ask air traffic control to look up. So he puts the plane into a holding pattern above suburban Portland,

and they try and troubleshoot the issue. So the first thing is the engineer. So in these days, the cockpit had a captain, a co-pilot, and an engineer. The engineer goes into the cabin. And on this particular model of aircraft when the wheels are down two bolts shoot up above the wings the bolts are up but they're still not 100 sure right and you want to know if the wheels are down before you come in so so the pilot they they radio to the manufacturer and that you know they're kind of explaining what's happened the manufacturer is like yeah we think the wheels are down but we're not sure

then the pilot's like i wonder if the reason that the light didn't go on the dashboard is because of faulty wiring so he starts playing around with with the in the plane still in the holding pattern as they're doing all of these different checks but at this point another safety critical issue has come into play the plane's running out of fuel, right? And the engineer knows that the plane is running out of fuel because he can see it going down to zero on the dials, right? He has a big incentive to tell the pilot that the plane is running out of fuel because otherwise he will die. So you have this juxtaposition of objective information and maximum incentive but in the 1970s it was a command and control culture you know the pilot was you know i mean

yeah the pilot was deemed to be the boss the omniscient um controller and the other two were supposed to basically carry out that controller's instructions. And they called the pilot, sir. It was almost always a man, right? And so imagine if the engineer says to the pilot, now, why do we have a team? We have a team because no one person has all of the information. They're narrow in their perceptual bandwidth. Other things are happening at the same time. But if the engineer says to the pilot, you know what, we're running out of fuel,

the implication is the pilot didn't know that already. The pilot might get offended. Isn't he supposed to know everything? And we know from this and many other incidents that in that situation, we don't speak to each other directly. We don't test hypotheses directly. We code our language. We mitigate our speech. And from the voice recorder, from the black box, we know that the engineer said, instead of, we need to land because we're running out of fuel, critical information for the pilot to make the right strategic decision. He said, oh, we're kind of getting low on fuel here. And the pilot, because of the insinuation, he knows everything, wasn't even listening. So the plane crashes, but not just that plane a number of

incidents in the 1970s of exactly the same kind happened because communication was so skewed by this very steep hierarchy it happens in surgical operating theaters famously when nurses can't speak up because they're worried if i say something, this is a surgeon, the big cheese. And we know from, for what it's worth, from randomized control trial evidence, Lee Thompson at Northwestern University, meetings are a catastrophe, the vast majority of them, absolute disaster. People are not sharing information. They're basically playing a political game to curry favor with the boss. So the short answer is you need what's called psychological safety. I hate the jargon. All that means is an environment where everyone

feels they can be candid and they can say what they really think and hypotheses are tested. When Google did a big data analysis of its most successful software development teams psychological safety was the biggest predictor of success because it means you're getting that interplay of ideas that's so important it's interesting because you know these big companies well big companies by by definition i guess have more ideas right but they are often the least innovative. Exactly. And that seems like a bit of a, it should be the other way around.

One would think that the biggest companies would be the most innovative because they have more brains, more ideas, but they're just worse at... Yeah, yeah. That's an interesting point you make there. So bigger, you're right. So, well, let's think about that. What would generate good ideas?

It's the number of ideas, not the number of people. If you have an organisation with a very homogenous culture, very command and control, a lot of sociological convergence, you might have 10,000 people all thinking the same way. I mean, you've seen professional services companies where you see the senior leadership team, and they may look a bit different,

but they're all absolutely thinking exactly the same way they've been there so long that's a big danger for companies see with cities you increase the size of cities they become more innovative companies get less innovative because they get so much convergence they have a lot of people but they think in the same it's an echo chamber basically right whereas startups sometimes a startup might be an idea that's completely off the beaten track, and then suddenly you've got this opportunity to scale. But even with startups, you know, often when they go public, they start to lose their capacity to innovate. You begin to protect and value the diverse ideas that enable an organization to anticipate future disruptions and come up with new innovations. Talk to me about creating a culture of diversity in your business then. If you're starting a company, if you're running a company at scale, how do you increase the diversity of ideas? Yes. So for me, the most important thing by far is landing the argument as to why it matters.

A lot of people don't think it matters. I mean, I remember going to an HR conference and the speaker was talking about diversity is a wonderful thing. You all need more of it, and it will always help you do better as an organization. And this really awkward customer at the back said, can I ask a question? And they're like,

yeah, okay. Imagine I am the coach of an Olympic sprint relay team. Yeah. And suppose I've got you set. Who was the fastest person in the world at the time was Usain Bolt. Suppose I've got Usain Bolt, who was the fastest person in the world at the time, was Usain Bolt. Suppose I've got Usain Bolt in my team. And suppose, hypothetically, I had cloning technology so I could clone Usain Bolt to have four Usain Bolts in my four by 100 relay team. There's no diversity in that team, but they're all very fast, right?

If you said you need to diversify your team, that would mean hiring slower runners. I don't want to do that as an Olympic coach. And it was like the air in the room just, it's like it'd been punctured and everyone was like, that's an awful thing to say. But he was right. That question was right. You know, in simple activities, cognitive diversity of opinion, cognitive diversity doesn't help you. If it's obvious what to do, why would you want diversity? If you've already got a solution, a canned solution, you just need to scale it. You don't need diversity. But when there's a complex environment, that logic turns on its head. So if you imagine, for example, you've got five people, each one of whom has

one brilliant idea, you might think you have five brilliant ideas. But if they all have the same idea, you've only got one. All you need is two different ideas and suddenly you've tripled, 300% increase in the creativity of that group. That's where cognitive diversity matters. And if your mission is to solve complex problems, diversity is the cornerstone of how well you do it. And once you land that argument, people start to, at the moment, people say, too many people think diversity is a politically correct box-ticking exercise. And when diverse voices come in, they're condescended to, they're not properly included. Once you realise it's a strength, organisations start to harness it to do the great things that they want to do.

I can imagine that organisations don't, typically organisations don't know what they don't know. They don't know what they don't have as well. So do you see what I mean? It's like an unknown I know. So when these like, let's say we've got six white, six-year-old board members sat around a table of a company that's really successful.

And then they go, you know, what's their incentive to hire? They think we've been doing great. We're all very smart. Are you smart? Yeah, I'm smart. Yeah, you smart? Yeah, I'm smart. Yeah.

And like, how do you make the case to them that they need to hire a black woman? And that's going to help when they've just been killing the game with these six white men. Right. So again, you're absolutely right to ask the question. It depends on the context. Yeah.

Let's say, for example, the organization is an advertising company, and they've traditionally been selling to white middle-aged men who think rather as they do. If they only want to sell to white men, then there may be no advantage in hiring somebody with a different perspective. If they're seeking to broaden their capacity to sell to people from different demographics, they won't have the tacit knowledge that they need in order to do it. If you think of the CIA, they hired brilliant analysts in the post-war period, and they thought they were the best intelligence agency in the world. But a lot of the information was obviously confidential. It's only now we can see how awful they were, because almost everyone, almost 100% of their analytical team were white, middle

class, West Coast, Anglo-Saxon, Protestant, liberal arts graduates. Nothing wrong with that background, right? But if you're trying to assess threats emerging from around the world, the Soviet Union, how would you possibly understand the probability of a conglomeration of different nations falling apart if you've been brought up in a stable middle-class family in America. How are you going to understand tribal sectarianism and the risks of radicalisation in the Middle East when you come from that background? When the UK joined the coalition to invade Iraq,

there was a genuine view that you impose democratic institutions and it will work effectively. There was no real understanding of the history of Iraq and how those institutions would be hijacked by sectarian interests because these guys had gone to university, they'd learned all sorts of interesting things, but they had no deep understanding of the dynamics in that country. So if I was talking to, for example, the Director General of the CIA, I would be explaining, you know what you know. But in the complex world, there's stuff that you don't know. There's stuff that people who think like you don't know. Be creative about how you optimize the diverse insights that can help you do the job you want to do. Now, if it was the CIA, demographic diversity is critical. You need to have people from different backgrounds who have

had different experiences in order to understand emerging threats. For an advertising team, it would be different. For a team of economic forecasters, I can tell you what it would look like mathematically. You want highly accurate individual forecasters whose models generate diverse predictions, because when you average them, you get an incredibly – it's called the wisdom of the crowds. So there are ways to do it. I mean, there are tools that we use with our clients to make this work. And for what it's worth, the really – obviously, slightly self-serving thing to say, but I think most of the innovative organisations are thinking exactly what you've just said. We need to figure out what it is that we don't know quickly,

have some tenuous sense so we can start plugging these blind spots. Right. And on that point of innovation, which we touched on, what are the, so running a business, running a global business, as it scaled, I could see that we were getting less innovative. You kind of get complacent, you build teams, you get, you know, your teams get more comfortable with how it's always been done. And then just getting them to disrupt themselves becomes increasingly difficult, especially when more people get involved, things seem to slow down. Someone goes on annual leave and then you've, so you've got a new innovative idea. You put it on an email thread. It stumbles around the email thread for four months. Nobody's incentivized to do that because they're all getting paid to do their current job. And you don't typically have

like an innovation team. So when it's everybody's job, it's nobody's job. These are all probably, you know, and then these are, and then you talk about failure as well. People aren't incentivized to fail in big organizations. What are the parameters or the factors or the dynamics of a team that does innovate? So I think, look, I think that's all right. And I think it's a bandwidth issue. I mean, you talked about a team that's been successful thus far. I mean, take the legal profession, which have, you know, used the billable hour for a very long time, have done a particular, and they're busy, and they're making money. But I hope that it's not a particularly unique insight to say that many of these legal firms will be out of business in a decade if they don't leverage machine learning, right, and AI in all sorts of different ways and start to disrupt their own business.

So you can carry on being busy whilst your equity value is about to disappear, right? So unless one is able to say, not just we need to be doing things well for our clients and doing what we've always done effectively, but we need to also be thinking about how we do things differently and better. You may well be busy. You may well have satisfied customers, but it just takes one competitor to innovate and you're out of the game. So I think that that is a good way

to focus minds on sparing some bandwidth to that question of innovation. So it doesn't just get dropped. It's tough, right? Because that often means a change in personnel. And nobody likes that idea in big organizations. I think this is about some of the big advertising groups, like they call them the big six. And the big six have been around, one of them in particular, has been around for a hundred years doing advertising. What are the big six? Like WPP, Publicis, those kind of bigs.

And I was thinking, you know, in their executive teams, you've got people that have been there for 20, 30 years. Then this thing called social media comes along and they're thinking, oh my God, so it's not billboards anymore and TV. Where does that leave me? And I'm not going to know what TikTok and Snapchat are. And the threat of having to replace oneself, I think often, and your ego often means that you go down with the Titanic.

Yeah. And for what it's worth, you see this in many different areas. So I think, do you admire Amazon as a company? Admire? Yeah. I mean, in some ways, not in others. Yeah, so they should pay more tax. Yeah, but I mean, what they've done is just staggering. But I mean, I think, so I think leadership counts sometimes

when it comes to innovation. I mean, he's obviously no longer CEO, but I think if you read Jeff Bezos' letters to shareholders, they're all about the stuff that we've been talking about. Failure, experimentation. Unbelievable commitment. We talked about the meetings, dissent and then commit. Almost all of the, I mean, the way Amazon conduct meetings, they will, as you know, they'll read the agenda item in silence so that every single person is bringing an independent perspective to bear on what are the risks of this? What might

make it, how could it be improved? What might make it fail? And then when they start talking, the most senior person always speaks last. You'll get an unvarnished access to the insights of your brilliant team, rather than speaking first and everyone basically converging on what you as a leader has just said. So they have a range of ways of trying to ensure they sustain. But Amazon will probably struggle, but they've done well so far. And I think it's a good case study of how to sustain it. But I've got to say honestly well one of the things i'm most interested in is you know i mentioned i'm 50 i'm totally bewildered by social media and you obviously you you inhabit right that world you know it you've got a nuanced

granular understanding of the whole thing yes imagine you Imagine you're me, right? So now, what do, you know, I don't know. I don't have the faintest idea of how to usefully engage with the social. I came to Twitter late. My tweets are rubbish. I mean, look, if anyone's following me, thank you. But I know I'm not very good at it, but it's an alien world for me. And I've never been on Facebook. So we're speaking. Sorry? So we're speaking. Right, so what should I do?

How do I learn? How did you learn to speak? Toastmasters. Well, it's a similar thing. But it isn't though, because is it? Yeah. When I did my first public talk when I was 14, and I always say this,

I was speaking in front of like parents' evening. I'm shaking. My hands are sweating so much and this paper's shaking so much. I realised I'm not going to be this. I was, I was speaking in front of like parents evening. My, I'm shaking. My hands are sweating so much. And this paper shaking so much. I realized I'm not going to be able to read the piece of paper because it's moving too much. So I just made up the speech. And it's a similar thing with Twitter.

You just said, I'd done my first tweet, awful tweets. And then you're like, it sounds like you quit. Or you start, or you were disincentivized. I'm still there, but I don't do it very much. I've kind of, I actually, I say that. I've probably done a few thousand tweets, but I came to it late, and I still feel that if you had – okay, let me ask you this. If you had to summarise what you know about the social media

and how one engages with it, how one wants one's articles to be read, is it impossible to encapsulate that in a minute i would say so so what i do professionally what used to do professionally is i'd go and do these talks telling people all about social media all the tips tricks techniques algorithms all the psychology and really explaining it to them and then i'd end my talk by telling them that everything i've just told them probably won't be the case in three to six months because it changes so much. And what that therefore means is the only way to know what I know is to play with the toy as often as you can. And so this is why I say to people when they come up to me and say, how do I become a social media expert? I say to them often, like, name

something you're interested in. They'll go, you know, I don't know, cars. I'll say, go make a car Instagram page and run it. Because then it puts you in the trenches and it puts you in a growth moment. And it's just practice and that's all it is. So if you want to become a master of this thing that's constantly changing and there's 10 updates to the top four social media apps every single week,

then you have to have a reason to be showing up. Life has to be giving you a reason to show up every day and open it up and look at it and perform these iterative tests, which give you this feedback loop. So for me, the real savior for me as a social media CEO, and most of the things I went on to sell to clients were learnings that I got from two places. The first is in my company, I create this thing called Ever-Changing Landscape. Very, very simple, internal group. Everybody shares everything they know every day. Oh my God, I've just seen TikTok, I've launched this new button, goes into the group. We then text it to all of our employees at 9am in the morning, every morning on WhatsApp. So, and it's this constant loop of what's new,

what's changing. Our mantra as a company became keeping brands at the loop of what's new what's changing our mantra as a company became keeping brands at the forefront of what's possible and what but that slogan appreciates the fact that there's a marketing director shitting themselves because it's changing every day and they want to be at the forefront of what's possible but they're shitting so it feels like two jigsaw pieces i'm shitting myself because this thing's changing you're saying you're going to keep me at the forefront of what's possible which is going to make me look good to the CEO. We're going to help with social chain. And the second thing that kept me at the very forefront and made me good at social media is I run my personal brand on social media, which means that on LinkedIn, Instagram, Twitter,

every day, I'm either tweeting, and I've got a team that helped me now, but I'm tweeting, I'm looking at the numbers, doing a post, looking in the comments. Okay, that didn't go well. Click on the insights button. Loads of people seem to share this one. Why is that? Oh, maybe that's because there's eight posts and getting all the subtitles. Oh my God, look at the retention number. When we did subtitles, the retention is so much higher. Click on the insights. Oh my God, look. So when we do that at the start of the video, 80% of people fall off in the first five seconds of all of my videos so i've got to do something special in the first five seconds and it's that constant learning over 10 years

then people call you an expert it's not i've just been playing with a toy longer yeah and that that i mean it's it's great to hear you say that because i think that's the pattern of learning in pretty much all fields every field in all aspects of life yeah i mean that's science right you're getting the iterative feedback exactly Exactly. And the more granular the feedback. I mean, if you know that people are switching off the video after five seconds or ten seconds, that's better than just knowing that 50% dropped off over the total time.

So it's the granularity and speed and objectivity of that feedback. So playing with it. Do you think that, so you may think this is a cop-out, but say you're, you know, here's me now trying to get, if you're a writer, and you obviously got a lot going on

in terms of coming up with a new book, do you think it's outsourced? I mean, obviously you could outsource it to a brilliant person to do. You could outsource it to a brilliant person to do. A lot of charlatans, a lot of snake oil salesmen. So it's fine.

How do you know what's good when you don't know what's good? You know what I mean? Well, that's one of the reasons. As it happens, I have tried to do that, and I've had a number of proposals in, and I'll check with you at the end of this podcast. That's what we'll do next year. I'll help you find someone that is actually good.

That's the quid pro quo, right? You can have a lovely cup of tea. There you go. And a heel. What I would say is you can learn one channel, one or two channels with no matter how busy you are and if you do learn one or two channels the impact it will have on your business you're as an author as a as as a you know someone that um shares their ideas with the world and creates blogs is tremendous you only have to learn one or two channels better than 95 percent of people

and to do that you just need to use it every other day. And if I was you, I'd be thinking Twitter. I'd be thinking, it depends. Medium is an interesting one. I'm going to give you three, Twitter, LinkedIn, and Medium. I wouldn't bother with Instagram if I was you. If you're a writer and you're the audience that you speak to with the ideas you convey, LinkedIn, Twitter, super easy to learn. And I know that sounds like really, of course I'll tell you that because I'm sorry. But those two platforms, I think, will have a exponential impact on your business.

It's interesting. So somebody in my office handles the LinkedIn and Instagram, but I've not really been on them enough. So look, this is really, really, really helped. Do you think that social media has been a force for good in the world? Because it's difficult. I mean, I don't know if you've been following the news on that the last, well, you probably have the last 48 hours.

But I see, you know, we talked a bit earlier about how we can converge with people who think the same as us. And we've obviously seen that on certain types of social media where you get these echo chambers, Trump, the filter bubble, other things of that kind. But at the same time, you have access, if you want it, to lots of different voices and people in certain types of societies can blow whistles on things that are going wrong. You know, I think the political consequences of the social media are among the most important of my lifetime. I obviously am not a native and I have a particular analysis. What's your take on that? So the great things to come from social media, the first things that spring to mind are important ideas being shared at scale and change happening faster

than it ever possibly could have. So you think about key movements around LGBTQ rights. You think about certain causes. You think about atrocities happening in certain parts of the world. Having a window into those things and those ideas spreading very quickly

and the consensus being arrived at quickly therefore action been taken quickly therefore change and political change happening at light speed i think is amazing um i think one could say being able to make some type of connection with people in faraway lands however on the adverse consequences of social media the biggest ones for me are um the the things like instagram which create which will ultimately lead you to believing that you're a piece of shit and not enough how does it do that because everyone's life looks so good everyone's amazing um so that does happen on instagram of course yeah i mean the algorithm will show you um the prettiest people typically typically the prettiest people

that have the best lives and then obviously there's this almost like black mirror-esque ranking where if i post a selfie and i'm not looking on my a-game i'll get less likes so that's like the the world's going um five out ten steve today and then i come back with the filter and i'm posing and i've done a little photoshop here and the face tune here and i come back with the filter and i'm posing and i've done a little photoshop here and the face tune here and i come back looking my fake self and it's instagram oh well done and then it's incentivizing me it's you know positively reinforcing me to live a more fake more shallow more materialistic life that's so interesting and and people do you know they change their phones to look better i read about this in my book the the ceo of an app called facetune said that um facetune is basically an app that allows you to very easily without any editing skills change completely how you look you can change your skin color that make you make your

face have no spots on it you can suck your face in your hips in and it's so easy to do and um and on top of and and so the CEO of that company said that he hit a goldmine. And he says openly, he says, it was just a goldmine. The amount of downloads that app has had from young people who want to change how they look is staggering.

Then you have this other thing now with these face filters, where I can put a filter on and it will just clear my skin up and suck my face in just a little bit. And now people can't operate without them i think i'm probably guilty of it too if i can just press this button and it's going to increase my prospects of dating and i'm going to get better positive don't tell me you're having problems

getting a date day two i mean that i can't well i mean actually they can't the people can't see you but you know there's a handsome guy here yeah that is and that's the other way that's the other young people are all so muscularly when i just are all so muscular no one was interested in in kind of having have you met ben francis i have yeah because we interviewed him on this podcast you've been on it he's been on here oh has he's a great guy but he was like i'm like all these let's see the two sort of iconic young entrepreneurs but this thing about instagram is really really interesting really interesting. Really interesting. So you think it is actually incentivising people constructing fake... There is no way it isn't.

So let me give you some more information on this. So when they did this vast report on which social platforms are having the most adverse impact on young people's mental health, Instagram was standout. It's a visual platform, which is ranking you on how you look. And the algorithm will show you the richest, most beautiful, most successful people. You've got the Kardashians on there with 150 million followers who literally have been, in the last couple of months, been like a paparazzi person took the photo of them on the beach, and then you got to see what they posted. And they don't look the same. And you've got 100

million girls following this person who is lying about the fact that they don't have cellulite. And they're not a normal, you know, because these are normal things. We all have, you know, cellulite and this and this and the rationing spots here but that and you think about how we attribute the value of anything in our lives through contrast and in which the context in which we see it so if you put i talk about this in my book as well if you put three tvs on a wall in an electronic shop people will think the most expensive tv is too expensive and too bougie. They'll think the cheapest TV is probably going to break and not very good. So typically they go for the middle one. Whereas if you remove them, the two in which you, the two next to it, then they make different decisions. And you've seen

this with like Ash's paradigm and you see it on menus and the way that we attribute the value. Like I would be the prettiest, richest, most successful person on planet Earth if there was nobody else on Earth? Because it's all a measure of comparison. And Instagram is a billion people measure of comparison. Where do I rank? You've written about this, haven't you? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'll give you my book after.

Yeah, I'm going to read it. I mean, that would be fantastic. What was it? How to be a happy millionaire? No, the title is Happy Sexy Millionaire. And I'm kind of trying to Instagram people, Instagram bait people into buying the book, right? Right, right, right.

Because much of buying books is virtue signalling. Joe, you're right, right, right. So the other thing that intrigued me on the way here today was listening to the podcast where you say, this is my podcast, you know, I'm slightly embarrassed about it. Don't tell anyone about it, whatever you do. You know, I would never have thought of that as a way of having a handle on a podcast. I love that.

I absolutely loved it. In a funny kind of way, it's kind of like, as a parent, it's a bit like reverse psychology. Like vegetables. Or getting your kids to eat vegetables or something. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But, you know, I think the truth of human psychology are probably, you know, I mean, you mentioned Ash.

By the way, you know, on psychology and on the global reach of Twitter, you talked about Ash's conformity experiment. That varies systematically around the world. So in Western countries, more individualistic countries, people deviate more from the herd. Can you explain what that is? So if you're thinking of the same experiment.

The lines. Yeah, yeah. So Solomon Asch, one of the most famous experiments in modern psychology, he drew a number of vertical lines which were of the same length and then a fifth line that was significantly different in length to the other four and then he got people to answer the question do you think these I think I've got this broadly right do you think all of these lines are of the same length and if you have people answering that on their own like 99 say the fifth line is of a different length to the other four but what ash did is he got you know 10 confederates to come in and say oh they're the same

and then oh they're the same and then the third person oh yeah they're the same length and the fourth person they're the same length then when it gets to the actual subject of the experiment they're like oh my goodness if all these people think that it must be the same so they say yeah they're all the same so they're effectively disbelieving the evidence of their own eyes in order to fit in with the crowd now that conformity bias which surprises a lot of people is stronger in other parts of the world than it is in in western can i just add as well on these lines when you see these lines there is no possible way that that small line right is anywhere near the size of the other lines but as you say because of conformity these stutely these participants just go along with it and it just it's just

beggar's belief that that's how human psychology works but there is a good reason for it if you think about it i mean every now well is there a good i But there is a good reason for it, if you think about it. I mean, there's a number of different theories about why it happens, but one of them is that occasionally one can get things wrong that seem obvious. And if there's a lot of people who are independently saying the same thing, that's very good evidence of what they're saying is true. And so humans, I think that bias evolved probably to enable us to take advantage of the wisdom of the crowd. Crowds can converge on things incorrectly, but not independently of each other. So if you imagine a stock market bubble, that's one person buying, another one seeing that person buying, and then another person seeing those two buying, and they get a bandwagon effect. Whereas if 10 people independently say that these two lines

are different, and you have no reason to believe that they're lying, that's a good reason to start doubting. But the reason I mentioned it is there is this global systematic variation in psychology. So you may have heard of something called the fundamental attribution error, where we tend to blame people for things that have gone wrong because of the situation. That's much stronger in the West than it is in the rest of the world. Cognitive dissonance varies fundamentally. Even visual illusions vary around the world and the reason i mentioned that

is i think um it's helpful for businesses to understand it but i think it actually reaches into our deep history and how human societies evolve which which is the topic of my next book but i thought you might be interested in that one thing i i certainly do want to talk to you about as well is how as an individual because we've talked a lot about companies and teams, how as an individual one is to reach their, this is a super broad question and I hate asking broad questions because you tend to get broad answers, but how as an individual one could reach their potential or what are some of the fundamental things that block people from reaching their potential. We've talked about fear of failure. We've also touched on the idea that people don't start because of that fear of failure and they don't get the feedback loops. But what are the other common sort of threads that you see and the reason why people never get near their potential in life? So in addition to those things, so fixed mindset, fear of failure, risk aversity, all the things we've addressed.

The other thing I think is I've become more interested in, it's related to what we've said, but I think it's different, is what you might call initiative or agency or proactivity. I remember having an idea. This is in the 1970s, early 1980s. I was going to table tennis competitions and carrying this very heavy bag, blue hodl, ascot hodl, and thinking, my goodness, this is really doing my back in. And it was just retrospectively obvious that the solution to a problem that many people had who were travelling a lot is to put wheels on luggage, right? Wheel suitcases, which we all have now. But having the idea doesn't mean a thing. You've actually got to

act on that idea, right? You've got to say, right, I'm going to try and design something. I'm going to try and sell it to a department store. I'm going to try and market it. I'm going to try and buy a shop. I'm going to have to pay it. I'm going to try and buy a shop. I'm going to have to pay rent. I'm going to have to go to the bank and get some debt. There is a massive difference between a dormant, passive idea and one that you act upon. Another example, I lived on a road in Richmond when I first moved there in my mid-twenties and it had no off-street parking. What I didn't realise is that in Richmond parking is a nightmare because all the houses have less parking spaces than there are, sorry, there are more, there are less parking spaces than there

are houses and so people park on the street and then they get taken up and you end up having to park 10 minutes away. A few doors down I noticed noticed at the top of the road, there's a house with a parking space that is always empty. I thought to myself, yeah, I should knock on the door or I should write them a note. And so I'm willing to pay rent or to buy it from me. But I never got around to doing it. And then a few years later, i was at a house party and this person said i used to live on montague and i'll really that's interesting i lived there too said yeah i had the house at the top i said what with the parking space he said yeah what i never understood is that no one ever came and asked whether they could rent it out i thought that

idea was in my head and i never acted on it why because there is a there's a fundamental inertia in a lot of us between you know it's easy to have an idea it takes a bit of you know i remember when i was injured in table tennis and you know i wasn't practicing i wasn't doing anything i sat at home you know just posting the letter felt like an unbelievably tough thing to do you have to go all the way to the post office. You have to buy a stamp. You're like, oh, man, I'm struggling. The psychologist I've got interested in recently is a guy called Michael Fraser. He's a German, really interesting guy. And he looked at the unification of Germany, right,

after the fall of the Berlin Wall. And the West German business was like, this is fantastic. We're going to have this pool of really keen workers and it just didn't work out because the east german um generalizing a little but the east german workers had worked had worked in in a communist system where all the decisions are taken by the party bosses and so if a machine broke down instead of taking action to fix it they would just wait for the boss person to come along and fix it for them. If they needed the telephone number, they would wait, and they wouldn't act on it. And I think that being able to – Richard Branson, you probably know,

I mean, I got to know a little. He talked about how – I mean, I think this is probably slightly – well, this is the way he tells it. Virgin Atlantic, he was flying to the British Virgin Islands to meet his girlfriend. He has a stopover in Miami. They're bumped off the flight. They delay it to the next day, and everyone's sat there going,

this is a disaster. Then he thought, well, hang on a second. I could charter a private plane, which were in the airport. So he took the initiative. Probably a few people had that idea. What about chartering a private plane, which were in the airport. So he took the initiative. Probably a few people had that idea. What about chartering a private plane? But he actually picked up the phone and said, right, how much will it cost to charter a plane?

You know, $10,000. He then went round to all the people with a blackboard saying, you know, flight, this is the amount per ticket. Some people bought it. They managed to take the flight. And then when he got home, he rented a Boeing and went from there. And I think that proactivity is absolutely critical. You go to school for all those years, you get to 16. But what about going out there and you're about to take a decision about what your future career

will be? In my day, when you came out of university, some people would be in the same career for life. And you take that decision without going in asking people, what was it like in this job? Could I perhaps work for a day in this job? A lot of people I went to university with took jobs without any of that proactive analysis of what it would be like. Now, you as an entrepreneur have this in spades. I want more entrepreneurship in schools. I want proactivity. Instead of learning business studies concepts, this is another experiment by Michael Fraser. Instead of people doing an MBA, he gave them a short course on converting ideas into action. He calls it the action cycle those entrepreneurs compared to a control group

uh you know had had you know 25 i can't remember the exact amount but five times more successful businesses or 20 higher profits it was uh published in science magazine so you know i think that's a really really big deal that's a mindset i just can't get over this idea that you saw that that car parking space and you know you didn't you didn't knock on or send a letter. And I'm trying to understand, linked also to what you then talked about with Richard Branson at that difference between the people that sat there and thought i'm just going to accept this situation as is like you did with the driveway or like the other passengers who had just been cancelled did and the person that takes the initiative what is it about them and what is blocking i guess the better question is what is blocking those that are sat there on the airport floor thinking fuck i'm my life is over, or I can't find a car parking space?

What is blocking them? And is it, this is my hypothesis, there's some kind of mental equation we're all doing very, very quickly that's weighing up the effort it would take, and also our perceived outcome of success, our perceived chance of success and endeavour, and coming to the conclusion that it's just not worth it or possible i don't think that's what's how i i i would reject that hypothesis i don't think people make a rational calculation i think it's more habit once you're used to doing things once if you've been at a school where and and some people are lucky enough to go to school where you are encouraged to make things happen to you know some schools you know they are actually asked to start a business to pick up the phone to to engage with other people as they seek to do something you begin to it becomes a habit the idea of writing a letter and dropping it's like's like no big deal. That isn't a barrier for me.

It becomes second nature. I can tell you from this parking space, I was just in a – it was just pure inertia. I hadn't learned that entrepreneurial mindset. I mean, that took me a long time to learn as well. And you think – I'm just thinking about how I would teach someone to be proactive. I've thought a lot about this too. And I think you get people to do it. So what Fraser does in his courses, he keeps linking ideas to action.

You're not allowed to have an idea without acting upon it. He calls it the active ingredient. So you get into a habit. So one of the entrepreneurs, so he's done these experiments in Europe and in Africa. But in one of, I mean, he tells great stories about it, but it's such a long time since I read the papers. So I think habit, doing it again and again and again, you begin to get into the routine of linking ideas to action. Honestly, I think we shouldn't underestimate how damaging it can be if we just continue to go with the flow and we're not prepared to break it from time to time.

Then you're kind of just a puppet to the course of life, I guess, in some respects. And I think, yeah, I think there are a lot of people with truly brilliant ideas, huge potential, who never act on their dreams. You had the dream, but think about your dream. That would remain dormant in your head had you not acted. These are distinct phenomena, the idea and the action. You can have ideas and dreams without acting on them i just my yeah so i get a lot of dms from people you can imagine the dms are i've got a great idea and you know that 99 of the people you speak to are never going to do anything about it because

right the the hardest part is is doing it's just day one it's like think of the name of the company but they they just well i call them sofa entrepreneurs they have the idea on the sofa it never makes it up out of the sofa right and that's like 99 of people and i i wonder what the barrier is between like starting i i sometimes hypothesize that it's because of this culture of perfectionism and this culture of needing to start at a perfect point with all the resources all the knowledge all the contacts the right team which is not the case i mean if you look at how ben francis started his business where i started mine it's googling on a computer how do you build a website and doing that

for three months um but i but i always i always wonder i think we could we would we would unlock so much potential if we were able to get people just to the starting blocks and we can't they're all on their sofas yeah and and yeah i yeah i i you describe it brilliantly um a couple of things that might be worth throwing in there's a guy called mike barton he was the chief constable of of durham police and he kept getting rated the highest by the independent inspector of the constabulary and I remember I was really intrigued by this so I talked to him and met him and he said that if he could he would ask every wannabe police officer to take one year off to start a business and for it to fail or to succeed just so they started learning using their own initiative,

because that is what great policing is about. Stanley McChrystal. Stanley McChrystal was the head of the task force in Iraq after the invasion that were trying to quell the insurgency of al-Qaeda. And at the time, it was a real, you know, it was a top-down model. People at the bottom were passive. If they wanted to get anything done, they had to go up the chain of command get sign off and it would go back down so lacking agility and not really using their brains and he pushed uh authority down the chain of command

people could they could as it were initiate action against al-qaeda targets if they thought it was sensible to do so and it had a a big, big effect on the success of the army, the number of operations, but also the percentage of successful operations. So I think that, you know, I think there's a lot of different people who are working along the lines that we're talking about right now. But for me, education is a key. And I'd like to see more work done in schools to really equip young people with this active ingredient you you've written i think we said six books right six books now um they they center around topics like high performance and mindset and and the like um what's the biggest thing that you're

a contradiction on in terms of what you can write about and know and profess to the world, but then you struggle with in your personal life to implement? That's a great question. That's a great question. I've never been asked that before. So one of the things I'm thinking, so I write newspaper columns or I write a sports column for The Times and a political column for The Sunday Times, right? And I think one thing that I try to

do is read other people who disagree with me, because that's a really useful thing, because either you really understand why you think they're wrong, or you realise there's a weakness in your own argument. But now I think about it, I think the last fortnight, I haven't been doing that enough. So I must remember that as a discipline to constantly read those sources that I know are going to be different. I've got a question for you, by the way. So this is another one that I'm thinking about a lot. What's your view of the word woke? So if you're my age, you know, people,

what, you know, cancel culture. Yeah. Um, is that a good thing or, or, or about which,

which, which part? So, I mean, I was actually, funnily enough, I was listening to Pierce Morgan, um,

talk about the word woke last night. Where, where were you listening to him? Why are you listening? It was a 60 minutes australia interview and i don't know why it just came up in my i watched 60 minutes australia because i'm in the algorithm so i'm in the echo chamber so it's serving it to me every day and he's done an interview in the last 24 hours regarding megan markle and explaining you know he's being a bit

of a crusader now saying i was cancelled for standing up for my opinions he's like really going for it now um and so i don't want to get in the definitions because then people are just gonna but so cancel culture i think is a bad thing because i think i mean we saw one yesterday where the cricket player who said some very you know racist things 10 years ago when he was a teenager has now been suspended from the england cricket team 10 years later he said a couple of things you know about you know he said something i don't want to repeat it because someone's going to clip it in the daily mail that's my column for so uh is that what you're writing about yeah i mean i it's racist i'm a person of color and i

think it's ridiculous that he was cancelled yeah he said some stupid jokes some stupid slightly racist jokes 10 years ago. Are we really going to create a culture where we're going to rid him of his livelihood for some stupid tweets when he was a teenager? Because I tell you what, I don't know a single human being that's not cracked a slightly inappropriate

either slash partly racist joke in their lifetime. And this idea that publicly we're all angels, perfect angels who are here to judge others to the same standard of false perfection that we portray is just like deeply toxic. And then also we're now on the idea of like free speech, we're now stopping the best ideas because we're judging them based on whether they fit or not. And this is, again, we talked about divergent thinking and thinking, having more diverse thoughts and accepting them and welcoming them and interrogating them for their merit not whether they fit i think is is awful and my last point again is um there's

been a couple of moments black lives matter some other issues where i've my opinion has been in neither camp and i you it's just you know totally unacceptable because i would say black lives matter issue i did a post you know the narrative was if you don't speak out then you're a racist silence is violence blah blah blah and after um george floyd was was tragically murdered i did a post saying listen people process traumatic events in various different ways so going to social media and posting about it isn't actually a very human way to process trauma. So if someone isn't speaking, it doesn't make them a racist. And the problem with the thinking there is people will look at

your opinion and say, he's not wearing our football kit. He must be one of them. And because he's not wearing our football kit, the socks, the shoes, the shorts, the shirt, he must therefore believe all of the things that the right believe. And they put you, and it's so binary. There's no appreciation or space for nuance. It's not the way to get to the best ideas, right? Look, I'm really glad to hear you say all that. I agree with everything you said.

And I'll add one other thing, so I concur with all of those three points. I think they're very powerful. The other thing, I concur with all of those three points I think they're they're very powerful um the other thing I'm from a half Pakistani half Welsh background you know so I've had the p word a lot in the 70s and 80s and I'm sensitive to to racial discrimination you know I saw my father not get from a brilliantly talented person not get promoted because of his colour. And that leaves a real scar on someone growing up. The other thing is I think it's a complete absence of an analysis of how to improve the lives of people from ethnic minorities. Cancelling somebody who sent a tweet nine years ago

in their formative years, it is almost like a fig leaf for true action. Civil rights movement is a great thing in America, in my opinion. Martin Luther King, the Civil Rights Act, the Voting Rights Act. But I think we have to acknowledge that it hasn't achieved many of its most basic objectives. If you look at the number of black people in prison, the education gap, the income and wealth gaps, I think there's a real empirical question about what we do.

And it's not going to help those massively important demographic statistics to cancel somebody. And it's almost like it's a surrender when we should be doing things that can have a tangible effect. This is what my post said. It was nine slides long or nine tweet threads. And the conclusive point was, I'm going to be black forever. So if you want to help me and my future kids and my kids' kids, a black tile on Instagram or a hashtag doesn't actually address the problem. Cancelling someone, telling organizations they need to donate doesn't actually address the problem. Cancelling someone, telling organisations they need to donate doesn't actually help the problem.

If you really cared, if your care was genuine and not survival orientated or virtue signaling orientated, you'd probably be thinking about systemic issues and you can't capture or, you know, or you'd be reading or educating yourself, which are all things that won't take place in the public forum. So go at the systemic stuff or, you know, educate yourself. That,

that to me felt feels like a more genuine way to change things. Yeah. Hashtags, black tiles, cancelling. Does it just seems like you, you know, ephemera.

You care more about yourself, right? Um, it's kind of not, it's a kind of, it's a kind of narcissism, I think. At its worst,

it can be that. How do people react to that post? Do you know what? On that particular one, everyone agreed. And that's crazy because no one was saying it. And it's like, because I'm a black guy, it was like I gave them space to disagree. So it was actually on Instagram, it did 600,000 likes.

Wow. Which is a lot of likes, right? It did hundreds and hundreds of thousands. I think my record is probably 50. It's one of my best, I think one of my best performing posts ever. And it was funny because you had like, I don't know, three black people in my,

in the comment section being like, yeah, you know, meant to be like angry at me. But then when I'd ask them, I'd say, which one of the slides do you disagree with? And tell me the sentence you disagree with. You can't find something you disagree with in the post. It's the sentiment that this is not the party line.

By the way, one other thing. The Wisden, the cricket magazine, Wisden.com, have managed to find a post from an England player that was controversial, I think racist or misogynistic, but before they were 16 years of age. So they haven't published the name yet. But can you imagine if that person was suspended for something they said when they were effectively a child? Because we talked about failure.

If anyone who aspires to the england cricket team never says anything publicly never writes a school essay that might come back to haunt them you know you never the way we learn is by saying things and then being challenged you don't lose all of that if you basically just either tow the party line or say nothing at all that's uh that would be a catastrophe for a dynamic liberal society. Imagine all the progress that would have been lost had people not stepped outside of a party line and stood on top of podiums and made speeches that people disagreed with and got them stoned and shot. I mean, that's where most progress seems to come from. It seems to come from an outlier.

Well, that's right. And, you know, I mean mean it might sound old-fashioned to say this but you know john stuart mill um lock the founding fathers in the united states what used to be called the western miracle you know the fact that economic growth was was very close to zero percent for the first two million years of the species to which we belong right i mean it was very very tiny throughout our history you know somebody who was born in 2000 years ago and somebody was born 1500 years ago would have seen very little change in society and then economic growth started taking off in the 18th century. And now, obviously, it's doubled and trebled and quadrupled. And we expect growth to be two to three percent a year. And if we have two consecutive quarters of negative growth, we call it a recession.

One of the reasons that happened is because of exactly what you say. People were freed from the constraints of the party line. You could say something that, for example, the religious authorities didn't approve of, that the sun is the center of the solar system, not the earth. You can test hypotheses. You can say the world is older than 6,000 years. You start to adapt your understanding of the world. That's science. That's technology. And I think the more constraint, you know, now free speech doesn't seem fashionable these days, but those ideas, in addition, by the way, to things like due process, the thing that has made me trend,

the only time I think I've ever trended on Twitter is when I defended due process. So the idea that in order to be punished for something, you have to have had some kind of an independent process, some independent tribunal to establish, having listened to different sides of the argument, whether the crime had taken place. Now that, again, is something that takes societies a long time to create an independent rule of law, a judiciary that's in... And people were like, that's outrageous,

because I was defending somebody who had been accused of a racist remark. And I said, yeah, racism's wrong, but let's wait for the process before this person is sacked. The implication was I was defending racism itself. But that is not the same thing. But I worry a bit that we're losing that uh that distinction i think there's certain people fighting back yeah yeah and that'll be maybe it'll swing back the other way yeah i hope so i i would hope so too um self-belief i'm very intrigued as to um you know

some certain people in our society are more self-believing than others. You see differences in genders and races and backgrounds. And I think a lot of people in my DMs, and this is where the question comes from, I have so many young kids in my DMs that are struggling with confidence or lacking self-belief. And I wondered if you had any words of wisdom for those in my DMs that can't find confidence and self-belief. I think, for what it's worth, that self-belief, self-esteem, other things of that kind are overrated. And the reason goes back to something we said earlier. I mean, there was a movement in the 70s and 80s in Western education to build self-esteem in young people.

And the way to do it was to let them succeed all the time. So you won't remember this, but you give them easy tests, get them to pass, and then praise them for how super talented they were. They get all this self-esteem and they can change the world. People were so worried about undermining self-esteem that there were no losers in sports days at some schools. I don't know if you've heard of this.

Everyone's a winner. Yeah, everyone gets a sticker. And that was all about building. It was called the self-esteem movement. But it failed. And the reason it failed is because people would keep succeeding and you know they'd get all this self-esteem and then they'd be given a difficult test right or they would leave school and they'd actually hit the real world where they would fail and what happened all the walls of their world

would come crumbling down oh my goodness never fell before right self-esteem that is frat and people would protect their self-esteem by not trying new things right and and that's a disaster self-esteem can be very fragile i i like to talk much more about resilience we want people i want i want my children to be resilient to try new things to mess up but not to be devastated by it. And that, I think, is a much better quality. Now, it may be that when people are talking about confidence, what they really mean is resilience. I want to be able to walk into a room, give it my best shot. Things don't go slightly wrong. I'm going to carry on regardless.

Every person who's a success has had some really tough, difficult moments. And I just think that's an inevitable part of learning. How do we build resilience in ourselves? Growth mindset is very strongly related to it. So instead of, you know, for parents out there, you probably have a very young audience, I'm sure, but the parents out there, it's very easy to praise young people for their talent.

You're super talented. They've just drawn a picture. You're super talented. The parents out there, it's very easy to praise young people for their talent. They've just drawn a picture. You're super talented. You're the next Picasso. You think they're going to develop all this self-esteem. The problem, as I've said, is that the moment they draw something that isn't Picasso, as soon as they get negative criticism, oh, my goodness, I'm no Picasso after all. Much better thing to do is to praise them for the effort or the process well i love the way that picture that the colors fit together they think oh right if i want to develop as a

painter i have to make the colors fit together in a more sophisticated way you're aligning their mind and motivation with the journey they need to take to fulfill their potential so it's good experiments praising for effort praising for process is a much more positive thing than praising for talent and fixed attributes. It's interesting because in my company, I came to learn that the most effective way to get my teams to innovate was to praise them for the effort and the process as opposed to the outcome.

Because if it became about the outcome, the success or failure of the experiment, then, which is largely actually outside of their control, right? When you're doing, so if I say to my team, right, we're going to build this website and we think it's going to do this, whether it does that or not, whether there's product market fit, whether it's a success or a failure, isn't actually in their control. The bit they can control is starting doing it and the process of getting to the point where we press go live. And so what I learned in the last year of my business was we would celebrate conducting the experiment, not the outcome of the experiment. Exactly right.

That is exactly the same thing. And it's interesting that if you look at R&D, you know, have you heard of Six Sigma? Yes. So one of the big mistakes, I mean, Six Sigma is a great process, like lean manufacturing or things of that kind. It's basically squeezing out variation, isn't it? So if you imagine making a car, a manufacturing car, all it takes is one component in the engine to be of the wrong size or specification and the whole thing won't work. So sigma is about delivering and executing with no variation but when you're

innovating you need variation you need to try new things if you're trying to create a new computer program a new website or you know a new drug and you don't know which combination of ingredients they're going to create you need to try lots of combinations. If you penalise people for failure, and you're only judging them on the outcome, and it fails, and then they're stigmatised, they will never try. That's where fail fast comes from. Yeah, you've nailed it.

That's exactly the insight that I think is important. And I guess the last thing I want to talk to you about is leadership and how to, how one can become a better leader in whatever field of life you're, you're in, whether it's sports or whether it's business like difficult job leadership yeah yeah of course extremely difficult i don't know if you'd agree with this but i do think even in a psychologically safe you know where people can speak up a leader still needs to make the decision i think it can often lead to confusion over who's in charge if it's a completely democratic organisation.

Oh, God, yeah. You need leadership. So I believe my own view, based on evidence, is that you need social hierarchies in order for organisations, institutions and societies to succeed. But you want those hierarchies to work. So leadership, I don't think you can outsource it. You need to make judgements.

You need to take ownership of those judgements. But if I had to say one thing, okay, I'll give you my – and this is based on knowing a lot of – many, many leaders in lots of different contexts over a long period of time. I think the best leaders have a hybrid approach to leadership. And what I mean by that is when you're evaluating what we should do next, you need to be humble.

You need to encourage different ideas, and you need not to be threatened when people dissent because that encourages people to speak up. But when you've made a decision and you've found the destination and you're going for it, I think you need to then have confidence and, you know, you need to galvanize. That's where charisma comes to the fore when you articulate the mission. Because at that point, having different ideas, you know, you're already on the way. That can often be quite disruptive.

I mean, obviously, you do need to change the trajectory if, you know, something. But I think that, funny enough in sport you see so humility and evaluation confidence and execution it's the same in sport so if you imagine you're a surgeon or in or in surgery if you're humble at the time you wield the scalpel this might go wrong I don't know everything you know your hand's going to be if you're Tiger Woods and the 18 you want to be absolutely confident when you take the putt execution but then if the surgeon says i'm a genius i'm brilliant you know i'm confident i don't need to learn they'll never evaluate what happened and therefore won't improve i'll tell you what made me think i once um ghosted david beckham fixed mindset right

complacency creeps in and you say that again so we're talking about the surgeon that's sure they're right and it's the fixed mindset analogy you made right and then complacency creeps in it's a disaster because what you want to do after a surgical procedure is review it in a completely honest way so you can find out things that you did wrong and could improve but if you have utter self-confidence i don't need to improve that's exactly as you could improve. But if you have utter self-confidence, I don't need to improve. That's exactly, as you say, a fixed mindset response. You don't improve through time. Beckham, I ghosted his autobiography a few years ago,

and he told me about when he took the free kick against Greece. How old are you, by the way? 28. So you won't remember this guy? I remember. I will never forget. It was the World Cup qualifiers, and he ran to the left corner. I'll never forget. That's right.

That's right. So it was extra time. He needed a score to get through. And Teddy Sheringham tried to take the ball. And you see on the video, Beckham snagged the foot off. And he said, when I took that free kick, I was 100% I was going to make it. That's a useful thing to have, right? But you meet Beckham away

on the training pitch, the humility. I need to improve the way I take free kicks. I need to look at the things that went wrong in the previous game. I need to see that. So leaders need to be both humble and confident, depending on where they are on the performance side, when they're out there executing confidence, when they're out there executing confidence, when they're evaluating, reviewing humility. I think most of the best leaders have it. Satya Nadella at Microsoft is a great example of that. Humble.

Their market cap has grown over a trillion dollars since he took over. Very humble person. I've met him a number of times. Great, great person. But there is confidence when he's galvanising his team towards a decision that they've debated and discussed. I think that's so true. I was just running through all the great leaders that I know,

and those attributes seem to be there. Even a good example is Sir Alex Ferguson. Ria Ferdinand sat in the chair and he told me that Sir Alex Ferguson is obviously known for the hairdryer and being very clear on what he wants. But then if Rhea went to Sir Alex Ferguson after a game and said, you know, you didn't support my brother, Anton got racially abused and then Rhea wore a shirt in protest of it. Sir Alex Ferguson was really angry. Rio went to him after the game and had a chat with him and Sir Alex admitted he was wrong and held his hands up

and somehow managed to make it up to Rio within a couple of words. But do you know, that's right. That's exactly right. With Ferguson, he always hired assistant managers who challenged his perspective.

Carlos Quiroz, Mike Phelan, Mullenstein, McLaren. He also would often do competitions for his players to guess who would be in the opposition team. He would go to other clubs and watch the way they trained. Ferguson came from Govan, from a very working-class background. He never lost his capacity to learn, never. And he always had a certain level of humility. But once they were out there and performing, he was incredibly self-confident.

And I don't think that's a contradiction. Interesting. It makes me kind of, I was reflecting then on how important it is to be curious throughout your life even when new technology like social media pops up and you you're a little bit disorientated by it and i see that in um really great successful leaders that i know in my life business owners ceos the ones that are the most curious um tend to have the best long-term outcomes and longevity. And I think it's hard to teach curiosity.

I do wonder myself because obviously I made my money off social media. And even now I'm getting too old for certain things. Are you still working in the business? No. I'm not working in the business anymore. No, I resigned at the end of last year. So now I'm a free agent working on a new business, but in a similar industry, slightly different,

much bigger ambition, I guess. And I'm working across multiple industries. So I'm like working in a psychedelics biotech firm that's about to list for, you know, several billion dollars. I'm working at Huel. I'm on the board there and work with that team. I'm working in a variety of different companies all around the world that are in mental health,

consumer goods, social media, you know. And I think I've done that as well because as I talk about my book, I want to like resist my labels. I want to stay curious. I want to stay emerged in worlds that I don't know. I'm working on a blockchain company at the moment, which is Web 3.0 using Ethereum and smart contracts.

And I like being diverse in my thinking because I actually think that's where creativity comes from in a weird way. And the, one of the things that enables me to have this podcast is I have a very diverse view of the world and a very diverse view of organizations and people. And that will make me good at, it sounds like a crazy thing to say. Like we're putting on a theatrical show in Manchester, sold out. It's like this, it's called the Diver CEO Live. There we're putting on a theatrical show in Manchester, sold out. It's like this, it's called the Diverseo Live.

There's a big choir, all this, all these really amazing things. And I, and when I look at that show, what it is, it's a culmination. It's a very,

very different show, but it's a culmination of all these random experiences I had in my life. Going to the theatre for the first time, listening to a choir, watching Kanye West, a light show I saw, and all of these little things. And so I think, you know,

you write about it, you talk about diversity of ideas. I'll tell you, I'm going to send you a copy. So my latest book, well, a couple of years ago now, was called The Power of, Rebel Ideas, The Power of Diverse Thinking. I'm going to send you a copy.

I want to have a copy of your book. I'm going to read it. I'm going to read it this week. Oh, wow. That's fast. Well, how many words is it is it very long no 17 000 no no no no no it's um 55 000 words it's not very long yeah yeah okay it's interesting you'll be particularly intrigued by i think by the first couple of chapters which focus on social media the world we're living in keeping up with kardashian's

generation etc etc well i've got to say uh you know i know we're living in, keeping up with the Kardashians' generation, et cetera, et cetera. Well, I've got to say, I know we're coming to an end, but you're exceptionally articulate. Oh, that's a huge compliment. So I kind of, you know, I'm interested in that because I think, you know,

I definitely didn't have that when I was at school. I wasn't able really to put sentences together. You should do a podcast. You just have the most amazing voice. I've got to tell you, my brother found an old tape of me being interviewed as a 15-year-old when I got selected for a national team.

I just really, I think we need more of that, learning how to, you know, communication is so important, getting our ideas across so that somebody can understand not just what we say, what we mean yeah and i think that's a i think that's a radically learnable skill you know a lot of the top speakers have practiced it youtube aside it's one that's in decline because of screens typing what yeah that's true yeah yeah yeah you don't have to talk to each other anymore yeah zoom anyway listen thank you so much for your time it's been such a pleasure to to meet you you're

you're i mean you're an individual that's had such a tremendous impact on the thinking especially of people in the professional but also self-development world i remember reading your book a long time ago on a plane bounce and how intrigued i was by um the emphasis you put on this growth mindset and practice and being teachable and your your your way you are in life not being set in stone if you're willing to put in the work and practice and um yeah I mean my team here are also huge fans of yours Matt over there's read all your books and he'll read them in 24 hours. This guy's a monster. Matt, thank you. Love that.

It's been great to be here. It's a tremendous honour. Thank you so much. For me too and good luck with it. I'm going to follow you with huge interest from now on. And you're about to hit the mainstream, aren't you? Dragon's Den hasn't been broadcast yet. Not out yet. No, January time.

Good luck. Thank you. broadcast yeah no January time so yeah good luck thank you