The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett - World Leading Psychologist: How to Succeed in Life & Work - Jamil Qureshi

Episode Date: December 21, 2020

This week I met with high performance expert and psychologist, Jamil Qureshi and delved into the secrets behind unlocking your own potential and mastering your mind. Jamil has worked with some of the biggest businesses, sports teams and individuals to help them reach the highest level of performance. In this episode he reveals the hidden secrets behind their success… And how YOU can use them to your advantage! Follow Jamil: Linkedin - https://www.linkedin.com/in/jamil-qureshi-494661a/ Twitter - @Jamil_Qureshi Website - https://www.jamilqureshi.com/ Follow me: https://beacons.ai/diaryofaceo

Quick one, just wanted to say a big thank you to three people very quickly. First people I want to say thank you to is all of you that listen to the show. Never in my wildest dreams is all I can say. Never in my wildest dreams did I think I'd start a podcast in my kitchen and that it would expand all over the world as it has done. And we've now opened our first studio in America, thanks to my very helpful team led by Jack on the production side of things. So thank you to Jack and the team for building out the new American studio.

And thirdly to Amazon Music who, when they heard that we were expanding to the United States, and I'd be recording a lot more over in the States, they put a massive billboard in Times Square for the show. So thank you so much, Amazon Music. Thank you to our team. And thank you to all of you that listen to this show. Let's continue. And this is why Tiger Woods keeps working. This is why Warren Buffett keeps working. It's why Richard Branson keeps working. The only way in which businesses or people will become successful and truly perform to their optimum is an amazing question. It's probably the best question I've ever been asked.

Jamil, thank you for joining me today. It's a pleasure to have you here so early in the morning. I typically on this podcast won't introduce people because I'll do a little bit of a pre-introduction, but your background and the work you've done specifically with high performance people and successful people is so compelling and fascinating that I feel like I want you to introduce yourself and I read through your bio multiple times it was deeply inspiring and I think without an introduction everything we talk about from here without the perfect introduction which I feel like only you'll give everything we talk about from here on um might not have the the context it needs to have so who is jamil kreshu i'm a performance coach and psychologist so i've spent my time working with some very good

sports teams some very good business teams and being humble aren't you some successful people and i guess what i do is i help people cultivate a mindset for success so i always say that for us to act differently we need to think differently. We're going to create different behaviours, different actions. It's about creating different thoughts first. So I guess what I do more than anything else is help people change their mind. So I always say there's new opportunities, new possibilities that will come from new perspectives. So a lot of my time is spent working with people, not to give them new skills, but more to allow them to understand the skills that they've already got and then create a perspective for them to use it differently so um as a performance coach i think everyone can be better everyone can perform better at

times it's a matter of i guess trying to create the mindset the attitude um i guess some of the precursors to those to the performance which, which are of benefit to them. And so you said that everybody has the skills. And I see that in a lot of my friends. I see that they have a lot more sort of natural capabilities than they've managed to sort of give the world through their actions. If someone has an ambition to be something, if they have the ambition to be you know a sports

star i know you've worked with a lot of athletes and you've worked with business people or they want to start a business what you tend to see it and what i tend to see in my inbox is a lot of people with intention but there seems to be something preventing that intention from turning into action or like behavior into an achievement yeah yeah and i think you're turning ambition into achievement is the key because you know most people will have good intentions most people will be wishing and hoping to be better but there's a big difference between wishing and hoping and believing and executing upon it so i think that the people who genuinely execute on it probably want it more for a start and that's the key no one's ever wandered around the bottom of

a mountain and then simply found themselves at the top and it does take that determination the resilience it does take the ability to execute upon ideas to drive success so i think the key is the desire which is fueled by having a purpose a mission a vision towards what that end goal should look like a lot of people um can't quite uh they say one thing they say that their their purpose is to go to the gym yeah for example we all say one thing and do the other yeah and why and why is that like because it's sometimes hard to distinguish with someone whether that's their real sort of desire or whether they're kind of like virtue signalling to themselves that they want to be something or, you know,

they want to start that business or become an entrepreneur, be, you know, get a six pack. But then their actions show that quite a different story. So I always wonder that with some of my friends. I always think, do they actually want that or are they just... It's very easy to say that this is what I'm after and much harder to do it. And I think one of the reasons why is because we have to invest. We self-invest.

So you probably all know these kids at school who are great footballers at 14, 15. You think, you know what, they're going to make it. They're just brilliant. They're going to make it. Or great track athletes at 12, and you just think they're special. But they don't make it. And're special but they don't make it and the reason why they don't make it is they don't self-invest so the people who make it are the ones

who um will get up on a rainy friday morning get up on a rainy saturday morning to go and practice whilst their mates are in bed the ones who will practice on a friday night when their mates are out drinking um and so talent is not enough. You need talent plus teachability. So talent plus the ability to be open-minded, agile in our thinking, to commit to practice and turn that practice into something which develops our talent even further. So there's lots of people with talent in business, lots of people with talent in sport, but I guess that we need to be open-minded enough to invest in how we practice our talent to become successful so you know there's no there's no substitute for practice you know i get lots of golfers who say to me that

yeah can you make me better yeah and you know the number one golfer in the world will practice more than any any amateur you know and you know there lies the truth but you know we need to we need to apply ourselves in a particular manner and so we need to be practical about how we exercise our talent you create good feedback loops to understand what we're doing gain better personal introspection and self-awareness to allow us to use our talents differently how do you give someone that purpose though like i'm trying to think like so we know we know practice is like so incredibly important to master something but my i guess my question is um how would you give someone that motivation because i i i guess you you can't give someone purpose a lot of us spend so much of our lives trying to to motivate people right to motivate

friends families you know siblings whatever it might be. And I'm wondering if there's a thing we can do as like loving friends or whatever to give someone that kick. Yeah. So a couple of points, I guess, on that. In regard to discovering purpose, it can't be done for someone. So I always say purpose is never achieved. It's attained on a daily basis. So the mistake that people make with purpose is they confuse it's attained on a daily basis so the mistake that people make with purpose is they confuse it with an end goal so here's my purpose and they have this vision statement of what they're seeking to you know achieve or create whatever it might be and get practical and tangible about it but purpose isn't that purpose is achieved on a daily basis that um sorry so my purpose is

never achieved it's attained on a daily basis and this is purpose is never achieved, it's attained on a daily basis. And this is why Tiger Woods keeps working. This is why Warren Buffett keeps working. It's why Richard Branson keeps working. It's because it's never achieved, it's attained on a daily basis. So I think that, you know, we need to find something which is purposeful to us. And then we need to lose ourselves to it on a regular basis. So once we start to become more purpose driven and express ourselves in a particular way i would say being a good colleague being a good business leader being a good sports person is not seeking to impress it's about seeking to express and be ourselves in the context of our work so once people can find that um within themselves um then i think they can

direct their energy and their focus in a particular way and become much more purpose-driven in how they go about their daily activities. But you can't give someone that purpose. It has to be theirs. And I think life is about timing. I think some people find that very late. Some people find that very early. And it makes no difference. We're all individuals. In regard to helping other people make change, we're almost too quick to go towards behaviours. So we tell people to be different all the time. Tell our team members, you should be more collaborative, guys. I tell guys, you need to be more innovative. I tell our children to keep their rooms tidy. So we're constantly talking to

people about behaviours. Say to our friends that you should give up smoking or be healthier, whatever it might be. The only way in which you change actions is by changing thoughts. So we think and then we feel and then we act. That's how we work. So if you're constantly working on actions, we're telling people to be different. And this is why New Year's resolutions fail. From tomorrow, I'll be different. Start doing this. I'm going to stop doing that. And we start talking about actions and behaviors we need to go back to the um to the precursor of all our actions which is our thoughts so the only way in which you genuinely drive commitment rather than compliance when it comes to change in your team in your friends you know in yourself is by changing the words and pictures in your head or their head to drive different feelings and then different actions.

There's a little tip which I sometimes give leaders. I say to leaders, never say to your team you're going to make a change. You say to your team you're going to make a change, they won't like it. Say to your team, I'd like to try an experiment. They'll all be on board with it. We'll give that a go, that's okay. So even just a difference in language to allow someone to think differently or make them feel differently and hopefully, therefore,

choose to act in a different manner. And how would I get someone to change their thoughts? Yeah. Have you got anyone in mind? I have. You know, I think the best way is gamification. What holds people in place is what they believe to be true. And so people will sit around a boardroom table and they'll discuss strategy.

And they'll say, you know, we can do this, but we can't do that. And they'll have a viewpoint on budgets, on consumer buying behaviours, on compliance and governance. And that's what holds us in place. So what we need to do is break free of some of the parameters that we think are in the way. So if we got people around the boardroom table and say, look, guys, let's just this strategy piece that we're going to talk about, let's imagine we've got an unlimited marketing budget for it. If we had an unlimited marketing budget for it, I know we haven't, but if we had, what would we be doing? How would we be doing it?

You know, if we had no marketing budget, what would we be doing? would we be doing it um you know if we had no marketing budget what would we be doing now what we're doing here is that we are helping people to move outside the mental tram lines that we all operate under and i'm the habitual thinking so let's ask some what if questions at them can you imagine that you know a life if you weren't smoking and what would it look like but what would you be doing today if you weren't smoking? What would it look like? What would you be doing today if you weren't smoking? What would you spend your money on that you save on cigarettes? Just play the game of what if. So let's break free of some of the things which are holding people in place, not by conflict, not by arguing and debate

in a confrontational manner, but finding some common ground and working from there. And the common ground is let's play a game. And you said there, you know, about people finding that purpose in their lives. We hear this phrase a lot, which is find your passion. Yeah. And I almost feel that it's in many respects quite harmful

because that question is kind of loaded. It assumes a singular passion for a start it assumes that you can discover it like an easter egg and then and also um the the context in which that question usually sits in it implies that once you find it then it's you know then it's the the the it's a can of unlimited like happiness and orientation forever and then that's yours and i just feel like sometimes language can be harmful because it it simplifies very complex things and sometimes multifaceted plural things you know so i wondered if that you know that phrase uh find your find your passion was something you um you felt similar about or you yeah i do i mean yeah it's true that

passion can be a significant multiplier of human potential. So, you know, people are passionate and engaged in a business, they can direct their energy in a worthwhile and meaningful manner. So it's worthwhile, but you're right that there's a big difference between passion, a big difference between happiness and joy. Some are in the moment. I think joy is in the moment. I think happiness is something that we continually adjust towards. Passion can be a significant multiplier of human potential, particularly in the workplace. So it does have a place. It is something which is useful to understand. And ultimately, it always comes down to personal

introspection and self-awareness for me. And I think that we need to work harder at understanding ourselves. And when we are constructing a mindset, which is conducive to performance, so we optimize our potential when we're in a particular state of mind. And that state of mind might be passion, it might be relaxation, it might be enthusiasm, it might be enjoyment. But we need to almost get to know ourselves and know that there are certain things which enable us to do others. And once we work backwards and understand what that looks like, maybe we can gain some more consistency. I say to a lot of sports people and to a lot of business people that consistency of mind gives you consistency of play.

And I'm convinced of it. The more consistent we can be in our thinking, we understand the building blocks, the component parts, the success. The more success we can have. And how does one establish consistency of thought? Because I completely agree with that. I completely agree. I've seen that in my own life. When I've been consistent with my thinking, I managed to you know perform the same habits every day um but then sometimes i'll lose

consistency in my thoughts because i lose um i lose i guess i lose attachment or sort of my anchor with my my why yeah and i talk a lot i've talked a lot on this podcast over the last couple of weeks about this realization i've had this year with the gym, which was every year, February, March, I was incredibly motivated to go. Fired up,

trying to look good for summer. Yeah. And then obviously once you look good and summer has ended, it's almost like you've lost your anchor, right? So like you get into September and the why which made you go and to think consistently every day has evaporated. And I can't get into september and the why which made you go and to think consistently every

day has bit has evaporated and i'm i can't get myself to go to the gym in october right you look in great shape for it this was the year this is the year i realized so this was the year i realized and this is the year i bucked the trend for the first time in my life because i realized that i thought to myself every single year i i do it for this period and then i stop and they're two different people August Steve and October Steve don't know each other they're like you know what I mean they're like twins that were separated at birth and so this was the year where I realized what I was doing and why I was losing my motivation so I thought fuck it you know I'm gonna anchor my why to something a bit more uh long term and without a timeline so i said to myself listen i persuaded myself of all the reasons why i want to be healthy and view my life as one season

and that's what's allowed me to persevere and also i got a bit pissed off with myself i thought you're really like that like weak like do you know what i mean like you're that vain and you're like you know but so yeah do you know i mean i always think that consistency of mind comes from understanding the intrinsic quality of our decision making processes and i say that a lot to people in sport and in business so you know you can make a good decision and have a really bad outcome or you can make a bad decision have a good outcome and this is why i've worked with leadership teams who have confused luck for genius, made a really bad decision, got a great outcome, you know, markets have

changed, competition's done something, something's just worked in their favour. So, so it's really important for us to not judge our decision-making by our outcomes, and we often do, so we'll say this is a good decision because it resulted in this, or this is a bad decision, it resulted in this or this is a bad decision. It resulted in that. And we can only understand the outcome retrospectively. So it's wrong to measure our decisions by the outcomes. And we need to go back to how we made a decision in the first place. And once we start to understand the intrinsic quality of our decision making process, we can become more consistent in how we make decisions and therefore have more control over those outcomes.

So I think that, you know, two things. I think that, and I will use you as the example here, Steve, that consistency of mind will come from knowing how we make decisions. I understand that we put our weight into evidence, how much we use prejudice and bias and opinion, whatever it might be, but let's understand how we make decisions. And in that way, we can be consistent in how we apply our logic and thinking and feeling try and determine some best outcomes and then the other thing at um as you've just positioned

is reframing let's stand back and create some time and space to understand at um you know why we do things and why we don't do things. Now, I always say that the people who are most successful, and I've had the pleasure of working with six sports people who got to number one in the world, I can guarantee you the one thing they had in common was that they never made big changes. It was small changes. So I'm a big believer in the one degree of change.

If you take two parallel lines and you move one by one degree, it may not seem much at first, but it's a really big difference between where you start and where you end up. So everyone's trying to make a dramatic change. I see change from tomorrow. I'm going to be different. I think it's about doing something a little bit more than what we've been doing it at hand a bit more consistently. And then the other thing with these people who obtained, know what i call um super achievements at home so they did really really well um is that

they actually worked on their strengths i started to understand what was good about them and do that some more so we think to be better as human beings i'm going to be better as a business or a team of people we need to fix our weaknesses um i'm not sure that's true i actually think it's more about understanding our strengths and playing to them so um i've actually worked with teams before in business and in sport who have actually weakened the strength by trying to strengthen a weakness if you think about it it's ridiculous i actually weakened the strength by trying to strengthen a weakness we need to be careful so i think understanding what's good about us understanding you know where ourours come from in regard to the thinking

before it, and then reframing some of those words and pictures. And I guess that's what you've done with your gym example, is I guess, change some of the words and pictures in your head, to therefore feel differently, which has resulted you in acting differently. Yeah, and I really, you i was i was valuing intensity over consistency and intensity wasn't sustainable right so i was going through the summer like to the gym two times a day i was starving myself like eating things that i i didn't want to necessarily eat and the consistency came from being a bit more um realistic with myself being like you know if you miss the day of gym it doesn't matter you don't have to perspective

yeah perspective isn't it? And I think, you know, it's funny because, again, so many sports people I work with, business people who will lose perspective. They'll lose a tournament and it's dreadful. They'll win a tournament, I've made it. This is it. This is a turning point for me. They win a big contract in business and this is us now.

We're set up. Or they lose a contract and life has never been so dreadful um but i think that we need a better perspective on things so our ability to think more long term and to be more forgiving you know to understand with more um reality at uh what's good and what's not so good um is probably the way forwards and in terms of responsibility it's a it's a topic that's fast consistency is a topic i've been so fascinated about over the last year as i've reflected and done has been sort of introspective about the things i've been able to achieve whether it's getting millions of followers on social media whether it's growing my business or going to the gym it seems that the the very ironically consistent theme across all of them was consistency

it was being able to do perform x habit for a long period of time and then you have that the eighth wonder of the world shows up and things start compounding in your favor very quickly usually um but the other term that i've been fascinated with is responsibility and as i've i started out as an 18 year old kid uh dropped out of university disowned by my parents no money at all and the one of the things that i noticed as i look back on 18 year old steve versus a lot of other people that i see that that are living in the same shithole area i was living in and stealing pizzas like i was stealing them um was they don't take responsibility for their situation they kind of

see themselves as a a victim of the situation they're in whereas when i was in that situation not only did i not view it as my destination i was literally taking photos of the the nothingness in my fridge and the how dire my life was because in my mind and i started keeping this diary on facebook which i really randomly wrote in my diary that a tv company had asked me to keep this because i didn't actually know how to tell my own diary right that i thought i was gonna show the world this someday um i i didn't see it as my my destination and i took full responsibility of my circumstance it wasn't anyone's fault but my own and i was gonna change it but then i one of the things that makes me concerned um about our generation and about certain political narratives and certain themes

i see on the internet is an like a an avoidance of responsibility for your life and the the default to blame someone else and i'll be honest it's something i see more in the western world than i do in the african village i was born in yeah you know so i wanted to know free from you like what role responsibility plays in people's outcomes okay that's a big one yeah um you promised me some easy questions um no so um responsibility is huge it's just massive it's um it's it's one of the pre it's one of the um predeterminants of successful outcomes is our ability to take ownership and accountability so circumstance and situation

push and pull us in different directions on a daily basis the world is complex it's uncertain it's unpredictable all of those things the people who perform best have huge levels of response ability an ability to respond to those circumstances and situation no matter what they are to drive the best outcomes or opportunities so i always said it's a circle of concern water cooler conversations the stuff that's going on you know around us circumstance situation incidents and accidents then there's a circle of influence and the circle of influence is where we make choice that's what it's about so responsibility is all about choice for me i absolutely absolutely guarantee you now that circumstance and situation is not a predictor of success.

Because we know of people who were born into privilege. They're great role models, had good access to opportunity, to wealth. They had good guidance and good support. And they ended up dying heroin addicts in prison. We know some people born with a physical disadvantage, they had a lack of good role models, they had a lack of guidance, lack of support, lack of opportunity. They grew up to be some of the most successful people

who have ever walked this earth. So it proves beyond doubt that attitude is more important than intelligence or facts. And I genuinely believe that to be true in all areas of high performance, that attitude is more important than intelligence or facts. I always say give me i will over iq any one of my teams and rather if i will over iq because high technical expertise and talk about the western world at the moment high technical expertise is no longer as valuable as it used to be and the reason why high technical expertise is no longer as valuable as it used to be it's because we can google things that's why so knowing a lot isn't where your success is going to come from yeah it's not what you know

which is important it's how you think about what you know and how you bring it to life with your character and personality to determine the best outcomes or opportunities so you know i genuinely believe that the only way in which businesses or people will become successful and truly perform to their optimum is taking full accountability and ownership. We need to almost move away from circumstance and situation, which is a distraction. The more that we realize that our success is dependent upon us and not on the situation, the better. Because the world is so unpredictable i need to simply learn

to dance on a shifting carpet not see the rug being pulled from under our feet you know life is a game of continual adjustment and it doesn't matter what happens it's how we react and respond to it to determine those best opportunities or outcomes and i think that you know it's funny because initially i'm working a lot of businesses and on culture, on team, people strategies. And the focus on responsibility has never been higher, mainly because we've been asked to stay apart. People are having to determine their own work schedules. People have to determine their own working week. They're going to have to take responsibility for driving the best outcomes whilst they're not surrounded by a team or working directly with a leader.

So there's been a greater call for responsibility. I wonder whether, in answer to your question, and I don't know the answer to this, I wonder whether we'll see a better shift or greater shift towards more responsibility in the Western world. Because I agree with you. I think that many of us will see ourselves as a victim of circumstance and situation and not necessarily see the beauty in the chaos because of it you talk there about the the internet as well and the power of the internet and how that's been a bit of a leveler which is yeah which is a really wonderful thing i think

um what how important is it do you do you think when you think about the successful people you've worked with to be a sort of self-driven learner beyond school um do you see in the specifically in the sort of upper echelons of like business the ones that the people that are most successful are proactive sort of self-driven yeah i think i think it's true i think that um i've said our only sustainable competitive advantage is to learn faster and better than your competitors. So, you know, and you think about that for a business, you think about that for a leader, you know,

you think about it for a sportsman, it's probably true, isn't it? You know, our only sort of sustainable competitive advantage is just learn faster and better than anyone else. It's like the two-power line analogy. Yeah, yeah. And I think that, you know, how can we learn faster and better than anyone else. It's like the two-power line analogy. Yeah, yeah. And I think that, you know, and I think that, I think that how can we learn faster and better

if we're not proactive lifelong learners? And so, you know, and I think that, you know, learning isn't necessarily about being taught. We don't necessarily need teachers. It's a strive for greater curiosity. You know, I think curiosity is worth more than creativity at the moment, but it's a strive for greater curiosity. It think curiosity is worth more than creativity at the moment,

but it's a strive for greater curiosity. It's a matter of being open-minded. It's a matter of being agile in our thinking so we can deploy resource to opportunity as it becomes visible. It's about self-discovery. So it's about a variety of things which are based not necessarily upon traditional learning, but more in a way in which we can open our mind up to experimentation and feedback,

you know, and understanding ourselves differently. And I think the best leaders, you know, have this ability to reimagine, repurpose, reinvent. I don't think they're beholden to a particular or wedded to a particular mindset but that's for a lot of people that's terrifying the thought of experimentation and being agile and reinvention i've seen that in my own business i've seen over the years i was um i was known as being the guy that would walk in i think a lot of business leaders are walking in the morning and be like we're going in a different direction everyone come in this room we're going to launch this part of our business and we're going to take it we're going to experiment

and i i would often say to our team that experimentation is like at the heart of all of our strategy it's like why especially as a social media company where our platforms social media changes every day there's new updates pushed by facebook and instagram every day so our company slogan was keeping keeping brands at the forefront of what's possible which meant that we had to be agile. But I'd often see people in my organization that were really against change, fearful of it. They would take, you know, they would resist it. Yeah.

You know, and I wonder how you, if it's, I always wondered why it was i think some of them had levels of imposter syndrome so they were you know they were just uh just trying to get a hang of the role they were in and not do more they you know they were already you know conscious but i wonder what your thoughts were on that i think i think people don't like change because they don't know what it results in i think that's one of the things but so let's take um let's take uh moving your desk yeah someone sat at a desk for 10 years in a particular office, and he said, you know what, you need to move down the corridor. We're going to make a move. People weren't like that in the slightest. If you said to them that you need to move down the corridor,

we really appreciate the move. We're going to give you a million pounds at the end of the year because of it. They'd be trotting off with their potted plant in hand. I guarantee it. So I think that because people don't necessarily know what it results in, because of it they'll be trotting off with their potted plant in hand i guarantee it so i think that because people don't necessarily know what it results in why should we invest in doing something different which is uncomfortable because it goes against our mental tramlines our habitual thinking so now you're asking me to compromise my patterns and i don't know what for

and i know what's going to result in and it could be good it could be bad so therefore i'm not sure i want to go to the trouble of investing in this change and when i haven't determined you know the result of it as human beings we like patterns um that's good and it's bad and um it works in our favor sometimes sometimes it doesn't so we like patterns and so we like consistency um and we compartmentalize. I'm going to get a viewpoint on the world. And in fact, if you look at the office is a good example. The office is a great example of keeping people in patterns. You've got your phone on your desk here, your computer there,

coming at a certain time, working a certain way, take your lunch at a certain time. So we're conditioned to work in a way which is reflective of the consistency which takes out variance in business. So you think that management has been around for about 100 years. And the reason why management's been around for about 100 years is to reduce variance. Because then you can scale. So businesses got bigger, a lot bigger 100 years ago because of the ability to keep people habitual.

So because we've become conditioned to do this, and everything around us keeps us in a pattern that we quite like being in, as soon as you start to move outside of that, there's a level of discomfort. So I guess leaders can allow people to make change and embrace change. I guess there's a few points. One, it's always best if it's co-authored and co-created right at home so let's involve people in what that change looks like um it's always best if um we look at our organizations or teams as a community instead of as a team or an organization

at the moment communities are outperforming bureaucracies and hierarchies when it comes to maximizing human talent. So let's try and form a community. Let's co-author and co-create. And then let's have a look at peer recognition, peer coaching, peer challenge. It doesn't need to be a top-down thing done to people. It can be something which can happen from the inside out. You know, it's meaningful when something is endorsed by others that, you know, you feel's meaningful when when something is endorsed by others that that you

know you are that you feel an affinity with sure what when you read about the steve jobs of the world and the elon musk's of the world they seem to buck all of the a lot of the trends that you hear in like management coaching they seem to be very authoritarian you know i was reading about from i was reading steve no elon musk's biography and there's stories of him just like calling someone into the office and saying how much does it cost to do this they'll say 10 million he'll say do it for five five thousand and do it within 30 days and they'll go away feeling puzzled but they'll get it done yeah he has this culture of like intensity and when you start he says to the teams that this will be the hardest you've ever worked in your life but it'll be the most worthwhile but it'll be the hardest you've ever worked and and i you know and then steve jobs as

well i've heard the stories of how he was you know how he built the company at medlow park and um he seemed like the antithesis of what you would read about in a business book but obviously these are two of the most successful entrepreneurs the world has ever you know seen so i wondered if there's a i'm trying to appreciate the like how they've achieved their success by being so different from what all the business books say from all accounts they're assholes you know what i mean yeah i mean i think a couple of things i guess that you know you find what works for you um i think what they have on their side is they have a really big purpose statement.

It's a really big mission. So there are lots of companies with mission statements, but very few on a mission. And I guess that when it comes back to the point I made earlier, that passion being a significant multiplier of human potential, I guess that these people have the ability to engage people. So to tell a story, attempt to inspire and motivate. So I guess that, you know, there is a, there's no doubt lots of logic. There is no doubt lots of rationality, which is used in their management leadership style.

You know, but what you're describing to me and the people that you're describing, I think you can really get behind something that someone passionately believes in and is something which is worthwhile and purposeful yet on such a grand scale. So I think when they're talking about things which will change humanity, I think it's possible for us to be swept along on that particular vision.

So maybe it does mobilize people in a different manner because of who they are, what they believe in, and what they're trying to achieve. Yeah, no, that's probably true. The example I give you is JFK. Well, yeah, I mean, JFK, you think about JFK's speech about putting man on the moon. You should read it, actually, rather than look at it.

It's a rubbish speech when you read it but um and the reason and the reason why is that there's no logic to it at all there's no rationality so he says we'll put a man on the moon and the reason why he gives that we should put a man on the moon is because it's it's hard and not easy which is a rubbish reason to do anything it's hard not easy that's why we're going to do it. But not only did they end up doing this, it mobilized a whole nation behind the space race and a whole nation behind science, in fact. And the reason why was that because logic was low,

inspiration was high. It was such a, literally a moonshot. It was literally such a big goal and so ambitious, so expansive, you know, that people bought into the dream and i wonder whether and i don't know you know the examples you gave steve jobs and you know musk what about the people just buy into that dream you know they buy into what they not necessarily what they're seeking to do but what they're seeking to create and maybe there's a lesson for all of us who manage teams that maybe it's not about trying to get people to do stuff. It's about people to create stuff.

It's that, you know, to be part of something which is worthwhile and meaningful and sell a big vision and tell the right story and engage people emotionally. You know all of this stuff about psychology. You know a lot of stuff. I read a few books. Yeah. You read a few books. I read lot of stuff i've read a few books yeah you've read a few books a few books last tuesday you know a lot of stuff tell my clients um you know when people come across people like you they think that you've got all the answers

and because you've got all the answers or at least an answer to most things um they think that you must live a life of sort of perfect decision making do you know what i mean coppola's children have the worst worn shoes yeah exactly um so yeah what what are you like at uh at living these things that you're aware of what are you like at uh at living these things that you're aware of yeah i'm rubbish yeah next question right that's the end of the podcast and the reason why is that two things that one um we're all human because we're all human you know we're all prone to make mistakes in our doing and our thinking um and i think that being you know better never stops so therefore we've

got to continually adjust you know we don't find hints tips gimmicks that make us better and then we just apply them regularly and it works so i guess there's a level of inconsistency at which is reflective of the fact that you know that i'm a human being who tries to do better you know give me an example on a regular basis on an example well you're aware of the truth but you're just not on the amount of time so as you know i've been a guest speaker for 10 years now so when the world is normal and sane and um you know i would um go off four days a week anywhere in the world so twice a week i was abroad and i'd speak to a few hundred people i'd

stand on stage i'd do an hour's talk about performance psychology and i'd come off um so i did that for 10 years four times a week and um but um uh but i'd often come off and think of course that any good i say to the stake at stake i'll come up to me and say that you know that was really brilliant this is exactly what we're after. It's perfect. Are they happy? Oh, yeah, it's exactly what we're after. But you sort of covered the brief. Yeah, yes.

Yeah, absolutely. It's exactly what I want to do. Send me an email. Let me know the feedback. And then, you know, maybe you can get some feedback, which is like, you know, you get sort of scored out of five. It's almost like 97% five. I'd be scouring for the threes and twos and think that, you know's like 500 people there's that sort of five people who put two and said it was all right and i just think fucker but um but i'd be wondering why what did i do wrong what was

real and it's unbelievable it's unbelievable the amount of times i've sat in front of an audience at um and you know maybe there's 300 people there and there's someone with their arms folded like that and they're just like, I think he doesn't look engaged. You know, and so out of 300 people, there's something that most people writing down things or nodding or smiling or whatever it is. It's amazing how many times I can pick out the one person who doesn't seem to be enjoying it.

So I think, look, I guess a couple of things that I'm always prone to you know we we actually we wait quite highly the stuff which we think we're not doing well you know we're trying to fix what's not right about us what's not good and um you know what we should have done and um what we could be doing um i think i'm still prone to that in terms rather than sort of enjoying the you know the success that i've had really what about things in your personal life in terms of like like you know health and like being a parent and like yeah pursuing goals and ambitions you have on your personal life what about those things yeah i think that you know um uh health wise i need to take some advice from you we should i'll lie down and tell you all about it i keep i keep

meaning to i keep meaning to run more and go to the gym more attempt there's always an excuse um so you know i'm the most demotivated motivational speaker you'll be life's pretty shit and um so um so yeah so i think i need to work out more um i'll tell you one thing that gets me and um i've got three children i've got sort of um four four-year-old twin girls and a nine-year-old boy. As a psychologist, I'm pretty good at it. I've sat in front of some pretty difficult clients, some really difficult clients,

some people at the absolute top of their profession and are fucking screwed in their thinking. And I've dealt with it. Four-year-olds and nine-year-olds just do me i can't you know i just you know you try and apply psychology to it it doesn't work and so the level of frustration that comes about in regard to being a parent again this is my point that you know all human beings and um so um so you know you try you try all the influence persuasion and negotiation and all the psychology and all the techniques that you know that um it doesn't work on four-year-olds it doesn't work it's so funny the guest that was

sat here yesterday joe wicks said the exact same thing he said i'm like a you know calm guy but he's just said you know when i my daughter i'll tell her that i want to just put her down so i can clean the counter and she just won't be irrationality exactly yeah and um so you know it's funny because um i've had some really good sports people sit in front of me and say you know give me you know can you have you got something that makes me better then and then you give them something and they go away they come back a week later and they say i've tried that it doesn't work have you got anything else it's a bit like going to the gym working out for half an hour going home looking in the mirror and says yeah it's crap that

i don't like the gym. It's rubbish. Don't work for me. And so, and this is my point that, you know, it's not about tools, gimmicks and hints. It's about striving every day to be better than what you were yesterday. I worked with a golfer. He was very, very good, really good. And, you know, literally top 10 in the world.

He spent a whole year with um and uh with just a piece of paper in his pocket and he used to play with this piece of paper in his pocket um and it used to just say um uh what did i enjoy today and what did i learn today there's only two questions on it and then in the evening he just answered those questions so that whole year forget the numbers i'm not gonna look at numbers i'm just gonna answer this question so i've had a good day i've had a bad day. It doesn't make any difference. I'll just answer these questions.

What did I enjoy today and what did I learn today? He had the best year he ever had at just answering those questions. And in a way, there always needs to be more simplicity to not using tools and techniques, not to try and apply psychology to a four-year-old, but to just try and consistently enjoy and learn on a daily basis

you know so i guess in regard to like you know yeah i'm still prone to say god i need to get running i've been drinking all week i need to do some exercise at the weekend um and you know again it's falling into the trap of the uh being at the mercy of the shoulds and musts rather than thinking about at um you know what am i enjoying what am i learning what surprised me this week um where am i experimenting and what have i discovered you know this week about myself and once we start to talk like that maybe we can sort of i guess apply more consistent thinking and therefore change our doing so you want to run let's use that as an example yeah i need to run more definitely i need to run more why do you need to run more do you know because i want to improve my heart and lung health i think i think i've got to know

it's all right for you because you're young and fit and um but um but i think i've got to an age now where i realized there's more of an importance on exercise so you know before i could just i'll just do it anyway you know i'll pick up running every now and then i'll be able to run i'll go to the gym every now and then i'll have a great time at the gym for a couple of weeks and then i'll skip it um yeah but now you know but now it's it's different a term you know now i sort of feel at them as though you know i could be fitter should be i think this year has also sort of illuminated that for everybody the importance of health i think it's made us all well it has for me made me think about my health a lot more not not not for the vain reasons that

you know young guy would think about their health because they're trying to trying to get laid or something but because you know i import i want to live longer and i want to have more memories and those kind of things do you know near il he wrote a book called indistractable i don't know yeah i'm not familiar with i've read it you're probably familiar with the book yeah i know the name yeah he said this quote to me which really changed my life and i think about it all the time Yeah, I'm not familiar with it. I haven't read it. You're probably familiar with the book. Yeah, I know the name. He said this quote to me which really changed my life, and I think about it all the time. When I find myself procrastinating from doing something or whatever,

he said that typically we think we're humans that are seeking pleasure, but we're actually living in the avoidance of discomfort. And when I think about the things that I procrastinate against, or when we're at six, seven o'clock in the evening, you're thinking, I can't be bothered to go, go whatever it does ring true to me that i'm actually avoiding some kind of psychological discomfort yes and so i now whenever i feel myself like this weekend i had had this big project to do i also had this talk that i had to do um for my manager dom and i found myself like and then i've got the book my book which i had to do go through the whole book from start to finish in a day and do it oh yeah and i'm like low-key finding myself oh just clean the

countertop because that's important you know and i stopped myself i thought you're avoiding the discomfort associated with sitting down for nine hours until 6am in the morning and doing the book and it wasn't until i realized why you know when i started that term has been like this flashlight that i shine in like the corner of the room where i'm hiding the you know the thing that i don't want to do now so i wondered if it was you know for some in regards to your running if it's in some respect similar like you're avoiding some kind of discomfort where you think i'd rather play the guitar i'm convinced of it because running is such an unpleasant experience for me. It's a really good example. I can't stand it.

But you're absolutely right. I totally agree with you that we do go about our lives trying to see moving out of that space of being uncomfortable. This is why we don't have conflict conversations in the workplace. This is why we don't challenge our own thinking. This is why we don't have conflict conversations in the workplace this is why we don't challenge our own thinking this is why we don't like change and uh you know we like we like

to operate from a comfort zone that's what we do um so yeah no i agree with you i think i think because running is such an unpleasant experience for me it's that's absolutely awful um i'm probably avoiding it because i just don't want the experience Whereas riding a bike isn't so bad for me. So maybe therefore, instead of sat there at four or five o'clock thinking, God, I need to go running in an hour and I really don't want to, I'll go tomorrow. Maybe what I should be saying is,

I need to go running now. No, you don't. Why don't you ride a bike? Get a Peloton. Why don't you? I've got one upstairs. It's changed my life. Okay. Well, I'll have one upstairs that changed my life. Okay.

Well, I'll have a go on it after this. But we should have done a whole interview on that. I could have killed two birds with one stone. I hate running as well. It's like, I hate the impact on my knees. I don't want to be outside, to be honest. I don't want to be swerving past people. So I got the Peloton.

It's low resistance. It's fun. Super engaging and gamified because you see the data. You see everyone in the world and where they're placing. You see Jenny, 55, in North Carolina is beating you.

Yeah, make me feel bad. I don't want to feel bad. I hate Jenny forever. That just makes me realize how unfit I am and how much I hate other people who are fitter than me. But I mean, interestingly,

it proves how fit you are because you said you don't like running because of your knees and swerving past people i don't like running because i can't breathe so you're already winning chicken and egg that'll be cured if you start running um but but but on that point of um of psychological discomfort um how does, in your opinion, face a challenge that they know is uncomfortable? Like, you know, to be honest, I don't want to go to the gym or do all these Zoom calls all the time. It's not like, you know, I'm not getting comfort or pleasure out of doing two-hour Zoom calls at the moment about, like, you know, biotech or whatever it is, the thing that I'm involved in, but I'm doing it.

And I wanted to know in your case, what does it take someone who like doesn't want to do something because they know it's uncomfortable to say, do you know what? Fuck it. I'm going to do it today. Yeah. And does that go back to that point of having that like long anchor purpose?

Yeah, I think it does. I mean, Muhammad Ali said, I hated every moment in the gym, but I did it so I could live the rest of my life like a champion. Yeah, and in a way it's true, isn't it? That there are component parts to success. And I think a two really interesting one is, and the one that most people probably relate to is failure

so people don't like to experience failure but you know for example failure is part payment towards success so the price of success is always paid in full and in advance the price of success is always paid in full and in advance you can't be successful you start making mistakes you can't be successful and start having your mistakes. You can't be successful and start having your two-hour Zoom calls. And, you know, in a way, we need to fail. We need to have these awful conversations.

We need to kiss lots of frogs. We need to, you know, do deals which don't work. And we need to do all these things to enable you to be super successful. So there's lots of things that, again, it comes back to reframing. If we see it as part and parcel,

a stepping stone towards a greater advancement we're probably more likely to do it you know if we see failure as something which is we're trying to avoid and it's just awful and you know and it screams to me that i'm useless um then we're probably going to stay within a comfort zone you know if we embrace failure then we see it as part payment towards success. And we see it as something which is an active contribution, a stepping stone towards being better. Maybe we're more likely to indulge in it and not have the discomfort that we associate with it. So, you know, I feel that it is always good to think about, you know, what you think about the end goal, have that purpose, that vision, the mission, the mission, what you're seeking to achieve and create. And then think about what those building blocks look like

because all great achievements are the result of many small achievements. You had Joe Wicks here yesterday. He wasn't super successful overnight. He probably kissed a lot of frogs. I'm sure he talked about it. His business and career and personal life went in all sorts of different directions like ours and um and you know it's not necessarily as we said earlier it's not necessarily what what happens it's it's it's our interpretation

of what's happening which will then enable us to use that as feedback towards something better and do you find with a lot of the high performance people you've worked with that their childhood is a definitive reason as to why they are the way they are today i'm going to try and articulate this if i can but i've from speaking to guests on this podcast and also from a bit of introspection to be honest i tend to think a lot of people that have extraordinary outcomes have often had some kind of extraordinary early experience and I'll give you a couple of examples the bill a lot of the billionaires that I know are really really successful people that I know um cite their father's disapproval as the reason why they've always had a chip on their shoulder and they've always strived obsessively to be enough right because their father told them they weren't enough

yeah um have you seen that in successful people that there's the the thing that makes them just a bit fucking weird is often a you know i think one particular instance with a friend of mine a comment their mother made when they were four that they just can't shake yeah yeah yeah yeah i mean i mean i'm not a psychiatrist so i don't delve into backgrounds in the way that maybe someone involved in psychiatry would you know so as a performance coach i tend to work with how people are now basically and tell me about what you're thinking and doing what you're trying to achieve um and more so then to try and deconstruct you know or analyze some of the you know the to achieve um and more so than to try and deconstruct you know or analyze some of the you know the earlier experiences um so that's not my thing having said

that though you're absolutely right there seems to be some sort of correlation between extreme experiences and then how people interpret or translate them and in fact you know as you're talking i was trying to think of the book i can't't think of the book. I wish I could now. And they talk about in this book the fact that so many super successful people, politicians, actors, business people, lost parents when they were young. And there's a direct correlation, believe it or not. There's a direct correlation between people losing parents when they were young and then becoming super performers, being incredibly successful. And the psychology behind it was that you learn independence and um you know it's almost easy if you've got these loving fabulous parents who you know hopefully you know many people have got um you're not as independent you know whereas you know if you lose a parent young you end up sort of doing things for yourself a little bit earlier and so maybe that going back to that responsibility the ownership piece and i'm having to sort yourself out and um you know means that

people learn some of the skills which enable their talent to then be used differently in the future but there is a direct correlation believe it or not i wish i could tell you the real psychology in the actual article and the actual piece in the book um but you just reminded me when you're talking about it so i do think that some people do have these extreme experiences and i think that um it's almost easier to get to know ourselves and get to think about life and contextualize things um you know if we're experiencing things which are outside of our i guess our normal field of vision. I resonate a lot with that. You said, you know, lose a parent.

But the reason I resonated with that is because I've said multiple times on this podcast again that when people have asked me why I was successful, I cite that when I was younger, my parents weren't ever in the house. And that meant that I had to find a way to make money to feed myself. Or, you know, my mum was never in the house when I went to bed and she was never there when I woke up because she was just she slept at her shop sometimes and my dad worked in London six days a week which was four hours away and I and it was only of the four of us in our my family the four siblings that wasn't the case for my older

siblings when they were younger or when they were my age my mum and dad were in the house every day doing date nights together and then when i grew up by the age of 10 i could leave the house for three days or two days and they wouldn't actually know that i'd gone right and so that meant that i became like this sort of self-autonomous kid at like 12 13 14 15 and then started businesses at 14 and then you know went off but you could have gone the other way as well couldn't you oh 100 you know with 100 you know 100 you know with that level of freedom and autonomy but not the maturity and you know to deal with that freedom um my friend my best friend said to me when i'll never forget where i stood when he said it in this

takeaway shop he said steven you're either going to be a criminal or a millionaire and it was because i had that my independence created this connection where I knew that my outcomes were going to be a direct result of my behavior. I always think of like school dinners as the perfect example. For a lot of my childhood, maybe up until the age of about nine, there was always like two quid on the counter, which was like, okay, you take that to school. And then by 10, the two quid wasn't there anymore. So it was like waking up in the morning and being like, how am I going to eat today? I'd have to find a way. i'd go and sell cigarettes or you know i'd like i knew that there were cigarettes in this this room upstairs which my mom had got from nigeria one one year

so i just went to school and i was just shopping the cigarettes or chewing gum and it was that that connection i made super early that my outcomes are a direct and only correlation of sort of connected to my behavior um so i resonate with that a lot and it kind of explains the difference between four kids that grew up in the same household and one the three of them went to university lse cambridge whatever and one of them dropped out of everything got kicked out of school and became an entrepreneur it's true isn't it so it's not necessarily the um yeah the experience is how we translate that experience and how we channel our feeling into something which could be productive or destructive.

You could have become a criminal and a millionaire and got a job with this Tory government. You could be a front bench MP with those credentials. I'm a millionaire criminal. There's still a lot of time. But the last thing I really wanted to ask you about was, you know, this idea of distractions social media is uh made it incredibly easy to distract ourselves and you see you know

teams becoming much more distracted at work because of all these screens and you know the digitalization of the world and individuals and what what's your thoughts on on why we're so distracted and how to overcome it yeah um it's true that we are distracted. I think focus and concentration have to be practised. So many things can be improved. So whether it's resilience, whether it's concentration, whether it's courage, all these things can be practised. So courage, for example, I would say courage is like a muscle.

The more you exercise it, the stronger it gets. So it's possible to exercise all these things and be better at them. And I think that it's fine to be distracted because it's actually quite nice to have different stimuli and different provocation. And so we just need to choose when it's good to have that provocation and change and when we need to concentrate. And we need to practice both.

Now, here's a thing for you and um is that as human beings we don't multitask so multitasking is a lie so for all the um all the girls and all the women watching this at um or listening to this um i'm sorry to tell you it's not true you don't multitask better than men amen it's true amen it doesn't happen we're both equally as bad then we're both useless at it so what we do is we do rapid switching so we don't multitask we just contact exactly um this is why actually um i can't remember it was a couple of years ago that the um the blackberry network went down in abu dhabi for a weekend from friday to monday had a 48% decrease in car accidents that

weekend really because as human beings we don't multitask you don't sort of like check your text and drive well it doesn't work as a human being so um so I think that we are living in an age where it's easy to be distracted and some of these distractions are incredibly useful um we need to come back to greater responsibility and choice at Let's choose when it's fine to do that and when it's fine not to be. And practice these levels of concentration and focus that we may need for certain tasks, but we may not for another. So I quite like times when I can sit down and read a book or absorb something or think about something and narrow my focus um sometimes i quite like sort of tv being on music being on at a phone next to me on a computer because i actually

um i'm sometimes picking up on certain things which for a level of creativity can be quite useful at a bit of provocation a bit of um a bit of changeability in my thinking because i get distracted by something and come back to it i find that as well i find them for some bizarre reason if i if i go for a walk or if i go to the gym uh inspiration floods into me but when i'm stood sat in my office trying to think of stuff it's almost impossible the shower is another weird place where my ideas seem to show up all at once and it's like i'm not like it's not hyperbole i'm not exaggerating at all like if i if i'm sat here and i'm trying to

think of something to write or whatever yeah i go for a walk and sometimes i put my my music in it's like non-stop and i find that quite you know interesting because teams are often trying to think of ideas and creativity and if you say to people, where do you have your best ideas? And ask people that question, where do you have your best ideas? You know what they'll say when I'm walking the dog, when I'm in the shower, just about to fall off the sleep, on the commute, over breakfast. They'll come up with all sorts of recreational drugs.

They'll come up with all sorts of stuff. But no one will ever say in a boardroom with some mints on the table and a jug of water. No one will ever say that. But where do we try and create ideas in a business? We get them around this boardroom table. No one ever says, don't get me wrong, you can't get your team in the shower with you.

I don't know what it's like around here. Maybe you try. Speak for yourself. Team meat, bring a towel. But, maybe yeah maybe we can't do that but we've got to find a way of trying to you know create a more natural environment for people to flourish and i do say to you know many organizations i say to them that you know you're too quick to train the people rather than fix the environment you know people say oh i need more innovative people no you don't and um you know we need to train them on innovation no you don't let's try and create a culture an environment where people are free to express themselves probably got is that you know

we're so we're so convergent in our thinking and uh you know we start off as divergent thinkers we start off making really weird connections um i had a six-year-old once um asked me what does the number nine smell like amazing question it's probably the best question i've ever been asked with all due respect to the interviewer today i was gonna say but um but you know what's the number nine smell like it's a great question um you know when's the last time you heard a ceo ask that question they don't um you know children ask these divergent questions because they make the connection between two things usually unconnected um and then they go to school and the school says why are you asking that we're doing numbers today just concentrate on the

numbers um and then we go from divergent thinkers to convergent thinkers and our careers get better because of it our businesses get better because of it and making simple connections you know margins down okay we need to do this, you know, revenues down. Okay. We need to do that. But what do we need in today's society in today's world? I think that we need convergent thinking. I think we need to move back and get into that divergence space again.

And yeah, who are the most successful people, you know, at the moment, people are making really weird connections. People who, this is where Uber airbnb and all these things come from is from people who are making a connection between two things previously unconnected because they're still divergent so let's try and create some environments where people are free to explore experiment free to break some of the rules and to talk about things which are um which are not easily put together and i think that that's the best way in which we can see the opportunity and possibilities in in this changing world in which we live in how do people find you what's the best yeah i think i

mean twitter or linkedin really i don't use anything i don't use facebook or anything like that so um or your website so you're my website and to me people contact me through my website but i used uh i started using twitter again and but linkedin is great for me i can imagine there are about 30 000 people on linkedin and that's really where where where i sort of communicate have you um how do you find social media just out of interest in terms of like do you know i'm a bit like an alcoholic who can't get the top of the bottle. I mean, I love the idea of it. You know, I think, oh, God, I should be doing more. But I just don't. People say that you should.

No, if it's not broke. You should do, yeah. Well, but you know what? It's funny. One of the advice that I give people at the moment, if it ain't broke, you should break it. Really? Because, you know, we almost need to give up what's allowing us to be successful to allow us to be successful exactly and um you know

i know it's a counterintuitive argument it makes perfect sense to be honest i mean that's the definition what innovation is right yeah it's breaking the blueprint so so i think that you know and again look it's probably like my running isn't it it's one of those things which are uncomfortable so i probably don't do it so um so you know what i should do is is try and find out more about you know social media and then i'll have a look at your social channels after and obviously we've got a lot of content from this so we can send it to you in a way that will do perform well if you post it so but listen thank you for your time today thank you very very generous and it's a really inspiring conversation that's uh i actually want to read it's one of the

few conversations where i'm like i really need to re-listen to this again and uh maybe with my notepad out and really take notes because there's so many ideas there that are really really profound at times that i'm like i'm trying to hold on to and then because you're because you're full of them i'm i'm going back i'm thinking you know i mean because there's so much intelligence condensed in such a short period of time very kind no i really really mean that as well, good for the self-esteem. No, I really mean that. I'm like, it's sometimes I have experts on that have really well studied in their field. And the things you say, as someone who's ran a multinational business with 700 employees for the last 10 years of my life, I'm like, perfect sense. And I really want

to, I could unpack all of those individual topics more, but yeah, thank you. Such a pleasure to have you here. Thank you. Thank you for inviting me.