The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett - Wretch 32: How To Build Unstoppable Self-Belief

Episode Date: April 7, 2022

Wretch 32 is a British rapper and the co-founder of Green Machine, a company that specialises in CBD products. One of the leading rappers of his generation, he is noted for his especially personal lyrics that movingly convey his making a better life for himself, as well as his relationship with those around him, especially his mother. With every line and every bar he wrote, Wretch pulled his way out of his Tottenham estate and the circumstances he was born into. Growing up surrounded by gang conflict, Wretch has had to navigate right and wrong in a world that sometimes seemed upside down. But what’s fascinating about Wretch is he didn’t move away or let success lead him into a new life. Instead, he stayed in Tottenham. Because he didn’t want success to change him, who his people were, and what was important to him. Follow Wretch: Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/officialwretch32/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/wretch32 Follow me: https://beacons.ai/diaryofaceo

Quick one. Just wanted to say a big thank you to three people very quickly. First people I want to say thank you to is all of you that listen to the show. Never in my wildest dreams is all I can say. Never in my wildest dreams did I think I'd start a podcast in my kitchen and that it would expand all over the world as it has done. And we've now opened our first studio in America, thanks to my very helpful team led by Jack on the production side of things. So thank you to Jack and the team for building out the new American studio. And thirdly to to amazon music who when they heard that we were expanding to the united states and i'd be recording a lot more over in the states they put a massive billboard in time square um for the show so thank you so much amazon music um thank you to our team and thank you to all of you

that listen to this show let's continue music is game of thrones bro you see game of thrones they kill the main character do you know i saying? They don't mind doing that. I think the best turning point for me was when I was 16 and my mum threw me out. She feels like it was a harsh thing to do, but I'm like, at the end of the day, if you don't do that for me at 16, I don't become rich. We signed for a single, which was Tractor. That was my ringtone. Twin said to me, he was like, this song's gonna change your life.

And then yeah, bam, it goes in the charts and everything changed after that. The obsession made me better, made me more hungry. When you find your passion, yeah, you find your calling, bro. You're not fair to no one. Everyone comes second, bro. My daughter, she has no recognition

of living with me i just became a monster man i just you can't skip what's important man how many we get 80 years maybe now your legacy can can triple that bro have the right one what if it just hadn't worked out i had to so without further ado i'm stephen bartlett and this is the diary of a ceo i hope nobody's listening but if you are then please keep this to yourself Rich, take me back to Tottenham when you were growing up I'm a big believer and to be honest I always start these podcasts in the same way because I came to learn when I was younger

the importance of those early years on shaping who we become as adults I'm a big believer. And to be honest, I always start these podcasts in the same way because I came to learn when I was younger, the importance of those early years on shaping who we become as adults. And someone said this wonderful quote to me that we're actually just children living out the stories we told ourselves about ourselves long ago. So take me back to Tottenham, where you grew up and the context in which made you the man you are today. Grew up in Seven Sisters in a state called Tiburton. Tottenham was just notorious in it for a lot of madness a

lot of crime a lot of this a lot of that and i think for me just growing up and learning how to navigate through that how to understand who you are what you're here for and also my parents and grandparents and all that they were proper embedded in, you know, fighting against police brutality. So I always had a lot of understanding about certain things that were probably above my age. I feel like I was always someone that could get along with everyone. Like whether a cool kid, uncool kid, whatever,

like I could always have something to speak about with anyone. And I think throughout life, that's always helped me and it's always been beneficial, but it definitely started when I was young um in their state just like the regular the regular stuff man that was happening do you get I'm saying like a lot of badness um stabbings a lot of this a lot of that but we just when we were very young we just wanted to play football you know I mean wanted to play out play football play games but as you get older you you know you start seeing other things hearing other things and sometimes even not even i wouldn't

say not unwillingly sometimes you're just you become a part of things because you're there on the day or you're there at that time and i think a lot of them early scenarios kind of shaped who I thought I was going to become at that time. The best turning point for me was when I was 16 and my mum threw me out. Because I now had to be the adult that I thought I was. So before that, I was, you know, walking around the house, had a bravado, had an attitude, thought I was a big man, thought I was a bad boy, thought I was whatever. And, you know, all the time my mum's kind of like, single mum, you know, there's, at that time there's three, two older sisters and two younger sisters and myself in the

house. And just like, at that time, just feeling like i'm feeling myself a bit too much and my mom was always like look i know you feel you're beyond your years but you're not you're actually 15 or you're actually 14 and if you continue moving like this you're going to be forced to be 21 at 16 obviously as a you you're not really taking that in taking it serious one day i come home and my bags are on the door so I'm kind of like all right cool and I'm like mad prideful as well so at the time my sisters were like look just have a conversation with her she's gonna sort it out just calm down a bit whatever whatever but I'm just feeling myself still too much so I'm kind of just like whatever

I took my bags went to my cousin's house for a little while. Then I just felt like I was just in other people's space. Obviously they're family, but I just felt like I'm in the way. I don't like feeling like that. Went to my sister's, still did feel like I was in the way. Even though to her she'll say I wasn't, but like, I just don't want to be a burden to anyone.

So then, yeah, just went to the housing and then yeah, 16 years old, I was in my place and i learned so much man and i think that's the best the best thing anyone's ever done for me in my life why did she throw you out i was too too vibey man i just thought i was too i thought i was it do you get i'm saying and i think as well it's like when you think you're it and you're making a little money on the roads and whatever and you're giving someone money here and there you're thinking you're doing your part so maybe I give you 200 pound this month maybe next month I

don't give you anything maybe the next month I give you a grand maybe the next two months I don't give you anything but I'm always reverting back to the fact that yeah but I gave you yeah but i gave you or yeah but i've done this or yeah but i've done that but what you don't realize until you're an adult is every month the bills are coming they don't come staggered like you're giving the money so it's not like she can't just pay 600 pound rent in january and nothing in february do you know what i'm saying so it's like but you don't have that understanding as a child you need to be an adult to have that understanding like these bills are coming regardless and i think even though she was saying it to me i was still you know like you're still calculating what you're giving like no but i gave or but i've done this or i've done that it's not enough the bills don't

work like that being 16 and learning them harsh lessons it's just harsh reality and i was just like right i actually thought i was a big man and it's like like years i was angry with my mom for a bit at the time as you would be not speaking to her kind of like kind of trying to be like that but you know like letters are still going there so you're still going there i'll get ask my sister you have to give me the letter bring out the letters don't really want to go in, whatever. Still,

you know, being attached to pride and being attached to too much attitude. And I just had to like, humble myself one day and I'll just be like, do you know what, mum,

that was the best thing anyone's ever done for me. And she was like, to this day, like when she hears me say it, she's still, it still upsets her because she feels like

it was, you know, a very, a harsh thing to do. But I'm like, at the end of the day, if you don't do that for me at 16, I don't become wretch at 20 odd,

because he's too comfortable. Wretch comes out of being uncomfortable, being backed in a corner, being forced to be, you know, to be a provider, being forced to be the man of his house, rather than thinking he's the man of his mum's house. The man of your house. Did you know your father?

Yeah, yeah. Did you have a relationship with him? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. My dad was very, very serious, man. Very serious, very serious, very strict, very well-respected because of, you know, in the area with all the police brutality and all of that, all the things that they fought for and still fight for,

him, my uncle and my nan, but just very, very, very harsh, very harsh. And the DJ as well. So old school, you remember, they used to string up sound systems. Like my mum's house, like all the speakers throughout the passage, one of the rooms, all the speakers,

like all of us had to share because the speakers had their own room. You get what I'm saying? I'm like, mum, can I at least sleep in the speaker? Like I'm sharing with my sisters. I need a little space or whatever. But yeah, so yeah, yeah, yeah. Good relationship.

Obviously him and my mum parted ways. And yeah, still kept a relationship. Like I don't have that, I don't know my dad thing. Like I know my dad, yeah. And your grandmother, one of the things you said about her was that watching her take care of your grandfather who had cancer was what a really pivotal moment watching how sort of caring she was with him

and right up until the point that he passed away. You know, like when you're young, your first experiences of death are like so severe man like so impactful not that not that it gets any easier but you understand it more i think when you get older and i just think at the time i i don't i don't i've never understood strength until i met that situation with my grand man and it was just how she was, you know, like Caribbean. So when I'd come around, she's like, make sure you come back again, you know, because I'm soon dead. And I'm saying, you're saying to me, he's soon dead.

Like, he's not going to die. I don't even understand the severity of cancer as young as I was at that time. She's like, yeah, man, I'm soon dead, man. And all my friends that he liked, she's like, make sure you bring them to say goodbye. And I'm like, say goodbye? Like, what the hell? Everything's cool. But it's like, she's saying it to me like that.

But my mum and my dad, they're not like explaining the severity of the situation to me. They're not saying like, there's a countdown. So I've got my aunt saying like, yo, we're giving him organic food. We're doing this. I'm thinking, yo yo we're giving him organic food we're doing this I'm thinking yo we're fighting it but every time I'm going back it's like he's becoming like I don't know less and less and smaller and smaller and now I can see it but I'm still I don't know I guess the word's naive isn't it like you're very hopeful and you're naive thinking no no no it's going to

be cool because he'd been to be Because he'd been, to be fair, he'd been saying he was sick for years, but he was undiagnosed. He was ill, but we didn't know. When he went to the doctor, once he got diagnosed, it's a countdown now. So I don't know if mentally something happens there. I don't know how that works,

but just watching through when he became incontinent, like washing him, bathing him, you know, through when he became incontinent, like washing him, bathing him, feeding him, just being there the whole way through. I was just like, that to me was the real definition of a marriage. That is, you know, sickness and health. Do you get what I'm saying? That is death do us part. That was literally till death do us part.

And I'm like, I don't know if I'd ever see that level of strength again. The other thing that really stuck out to me about your childhood as I was reading through your backstory was that moment when you're nine and a car comes up next to you. Yeah. Tell me about that. What happened? What did that teach you?

At that point, Tottenham was warring with a lot of surrounding areas, innit? So it was like Ford fiestas back then, tinted cars rolling through the estate, just looking for whoever they're looking for. But I live in the middle of it. And being young, but being tall. And remember back then when,

when, when everyone's warring with each other, like now we have the internet. So everyone knows who everyone is, what everyone looks like, whatever. Back then, nobody didn't. It was just a description. Like he's dark skin and skinny. Do is, what everyone looks like, whatever. Back then, nobody didn't.

It was just a description. Like he's dark skin and skinny. Do you get what I'm saying? So they come in looking for a dark skin and skinny guy, but I'm nine and I'm going shop. And then I remember the car was breezing up to me. And I'm thinking, bro,

why is he driving like that? Skids, wind down the window. And then I looked in the car. I'm like, bro, but it's like, it like no no and then drive off and i just thought bro like what the hell like just thought imagine if i ran like because you know like for a second i was gonna run i was thinking right the cars

because he's driving towards me i can run that way he ain't gonna be able to spin around but i just remember thinking like i haven't even done anything do you get what i'm saying first of all but then when it stopped and they've done that I was just like let's drive off and I think that thing there made me feel like

it's probably better to be involved than to not at the time do you get what I'm saying because at the time I'm not involved I'm actually just

a clean hearted good you I just play football and computer that's it do you get what I'm saying so when that happened it made me feel like right that could have happened to me for no reason like i might as well give you a reason do you get i'm saying like someone could have done something yeah something something could have like i could have been shot

whatever they was gonna do and i think that kind of put a chip on my shoulder do you know i mean for the next the next couple years which obviously is what led to my mom feeling like now you're feeling yourself a bit too much go and fly the nest like if you don't you know if you don't if you don't push the bird out the nest it won't fly you know if you're not thrown in the water you don't have to swim kind of thing and a lot of men i mean this happens not just on the estate but men that don't grow up in such circumstances they start using that like bravado as a as a form of self-defense but it ends up um inflicting self-harm in some way i mean that's what you tend to see with a lot of gangs right you join for to defend yourself or to try and fit in but

it leads you down a path of self-harm yeah because you go from i'm doing this to fight back yeah and then you go from fighting back in the form of defense to offense now because it's gone from i'm just defending myself to now i'm out in a club i'm out somewhere and now you're getting into situations with people that you feel look like you might end up in a situation with so now it's just happening now it's proactive yeah do you get what i'm saying whereas really if you both were just defending yourselves then you can be cool to walk past each other or be in the same club at the same time or whatever i think a lot of like things being unsaid like when things ain't clear like you're in just because

you're in an environment and you feel i don't know you might not have an issue with anyone in the environment but because there's no clarity, because they haven't said, we don't have nothing with you. And you haven't said, we don't have nothing with you. It's just tense. Yeah. I mean,

that's life, right? Relationships, business, communication. Yeah. And it's just a little tenseness. And it's like,

why is it tense? And then depending on how the ice breaks, do you know what I'm saying? If it breaks the right way, it's cool. If it breaks the wrong way, then it's just erupting into something that didn't even exist, to be fair, in the first place.

And at that age, what did you want to be when you grew up? What was the aspiration? Probably wanted to be Ian Wright. Realized early on that ain't going to happen. I liked music. I didn't want to be a musician though Why? It didn't seem realistic

You didn't know anyone in your tribal circle That had gotten there? Yeah it was like The musicians were like Other people Jay-Z Yeah You know what I'm saying

Tupac or Nas Like that was Somewhere else So it's like Yeah you can do it for fun So we do it for fun We write whatever Record On tapes Blah, blah, blah.

But I never thought like this could be a career. I could make money from this. I could live in this space. So I guess like I was into trying to understand what else happens outside my estate. Cause also what happens, you feel like your family, your friends become your family in the estate. The sweet shop is basically a supermarket.

So you don't need to leave. You just move from house to house. Then we're all outside. We play football. Then it's 9pm. We buy ice poles. Then everyone goes home. We do it again tomorrow.

And you just end up in a cycle of that. But then someone told me, actually, I saw one of my friends in an advert, a guy from my estate called Frank here. He was in a Lexus advert as a kid. And I was like, when he come on the telly, I was like, mom, that's Francis.

Like he was over there. I said, when I saw him, I said, Frank, how did you get an advert? He was like, I've got an agent. I was like, is it? How'd you get an agent? He's like, there's a newspaper that comes out every Thursday called The Stage. So he's like, buy The? How'd you get agent? He's like, there's a newspaper that comes out every Thursday called The Stage.

So he's like, buy The Stage, it costs a pound, but it just shows you so much different things. So I used to buy that newspaper, yeah, just to see like what else can happen? Like what else is there? And there used to be like auditions or whatever. To be fair, I'd never really go to any, but I think like I was just intrigued about like what else

exists like what other people are doing then i'd see something about the brit school i'm like i wonder what that is like all these things that we don't know nothing about anna shares i used to see sylvia young all these things in the paper but there was always a price a cost like sign up for this or pay for the portfolio or whatever and obviously at like 11 12 13 years you can't you know i mean my mom she's not gonna there's too many of us to ask for that we need school uniform first and foremost everything else is secondary so um yeah how old were you when you decided that you were gonna like record a mixtape and like publish it and try and sell it. 2006 when it came out, wasn't it? Yeah, 2006, Learn From My Mixtape came out.

That's my first CD, 24 songs on there. I tried getting it on Spotify, I couldn't. No, it's not, it's not. I need to get it up on there. People ask, but I think there might be one or two American beats. So that's why we're struggling with that. But yeah, man, I think at that point, might be one or two american beats so that's why we're struggling with that but um yeah man i think

at that point i'd been on pirate radio been on heat fm and i was just like then i became obsessed i was obsessed i was just like i need to go studio as much as i can everything i was doing was to put into being able to record and then once i had seven or eight cds with about nine songs on each i was like right well like 50 60 something songs like this is mad maybe i should just do do a project so then i came up with the idea learn from my mixtape because i wanted it to be like quite educational like not in a school way but in a streets way like i always wanted to like educate the youth to let them know there was other ways of doing things

kind of thing. That's always been my thing. So yeah, came up with that, made that project. The funny thing about that CD is that you give it to the guy to press up, pay your six or 700 pound. And then he presses it up. But back then they were so long.

You're ringing him every Friday. Has it arrived? No, it's not arrived yet. Ringing, ringing, ringing, ringing. So the day my son's born, I'm in the hospital, I get a phone call and it's the guy and I'm like,

so the baby's born healthy, everything's cool. I answer the phone, he's like, your CDs are here, come now. Because he's not, I don't know, I don't remember if it was a Friday, but he wasn't into more. He wasn't in for the next two days. So it was like, come now. So obviously I'll come

off the phone. I'm in the hospital holding my son. So like his mom's looked at me and she's like, who was that? I was like, yeah, man, the CDs are here, but she knows that this is my thing. So this this is like but this is the thing when you make music you're obsessed bro you're obsessed so i'm like looking at my watch like yeah i'm saying she's like then she just looks at me and she goes to go and get the cds man just go and get the cds i'm like thank you man my son jumped in the car ripped a creighton picked up a thousand cds a thousand thousand you got them all in the car thousand all in the car bro thousand like seats two of us in the car seats down cut like a thousand it takes up bare space as

well got them back so then like just put them in the hallway went and picked them up brought her home and she was just like you need to get these out of this house because now there's a buggy there's moses basket there's all of this stuff i'm just like i'm just feeling mad pressure i'm just like bro that was just it was just fun and exciting man it was like it was like my life was born was reborn my son was born i just felt like a new energy i was re-energized and i just i just wanted to go man so it was like spent the next couple weeks doing the sailing return so it's like you take them to a shop if they don't sell them they go back bro and at that point i don't care about the money bro

i just want to be heard like i wouldn't someone drove past me and they were playing my CD, bro. You can't tell me I'm not Jay-Z back then. When I heard that and I don't know the person, normally you know them. I'm looking, I'm like, bro, he doesn't even know it's me. He's driven past me. I'm like, yeah, this is like, this is happening. We're growing, we're growing. So yeah, just re-energize, man. And Salem Return is long because you're no one the the shop guy he shot his shelves are full so he's like yeah we'll take five I'm like my guy I have a thousand of these take 50 bro I won't even come back for the money I swear to you bro like I'm cool bro he's like nah nah give me 10 bro you know I'm doing just to get rid of them I'll buy the 10

back yeah and then he'll call me and he'll be like yeah the 10 went fast you know what I'm doing? Just to get rid of them. I'll buy the 10 back. Yeah. And then he'll call me and he'll be like, yeah, the 10 went fast, you know? I'll make someone else do it. The 10 went fast. Don't lie. What do you want? You want the 50 now?

Yeah, yeah, bring the 50. Yeah, we've got 50 for you coming. So you'd get a friend to go in and buy the CDs. Do you get what I'm saying? So now I can go and give him 50. That's half a box out, bro. This was taking up so much space.

So yeah, doing that. Oxford Circus, Birmingham, Croydon, like up so much space. So yeah, doing that, Oxford Circus, Birmingham, Croydon, like, ooh, the music shops. And yeah, it was different time, innit? When you were running around and shotting those CDs, what were you doing for money? Because I'm sure that wasn't covering the bills, right? Nah, me and my manager, he's my manager now.

He's always been my brethren, like my right hand. We just, every penny we made my right hand we just every every penny we made from anything we just put it together and put it in this and put it in this so it was like sometimes we'd go back for the sale and return as well so we'd get a little drips and drabs there this and that and just literally just sharing money it's like we had one bank account if i'm honest like it was we were just sharing like anything what do we need then we needed to do a video how much does a video cost 2 500 whoa all right cool but now my um at the time like my son's mom's like yo we need buggy let's say we need a buggy but it's like i need to do a video it was like i felt like i was always trying to decide between a buggy or a video yeah bro like you feel so guilty but you but you know it made me

understand it made me understand like the the need and the obsession and the love i have for this thing because i'm actually always comparing it like it sounds mad to hear me say but it's just when it's your purpose it it's your purpose, bro. Every single month we're growing, we're growing, we're growing. It's getting bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger. And when it gets to that point,

we'll have how many buggies? Do you get what I'm saying? We have the best cot, everything. It'll be able to spin. You get what I'm saying? The cot will put the baby to sleep, whatever, you know what I mean? SMA champagne.

So yeah, but that was like like that was when i was understanding that you've like you've actually got some kind of obsessional some deep rooted love for this thing that should probably not be like that you know i'm saying like what you're weighing up against the other thing it just but it just was man how long were you in that phase of like trying to like trying to give people your cds and like how how in years or months how long you in that phase of like trying to, like trying to give people your CDs and like how, how in years or months, how long was that, that phase where like people weren't,

cause I was watching the Kanye Netflix documentary recently. It reminded me of that, that you've got that young man who believed in himself more than anyone else did. You see that scene where he plays like. Bro, it all falls down. All falls down and she's not paying attention to him. She goes on the phone.

Yeah, yeah. She's on the phone. She's intentionally trying to tell him to piss off by like ignoring him yeah it reminds me of that like so how long were you in that phase of your journey just like selling them cds i think so if this first cd came out 2006 i reckon since like 2003 i'd been giving out music but what i what i was always very clever at like i always wanted everyone to like my music so i had different cds with different songs on so i'd have like a cd with 10 grime songs

a cd with 10 love songs a cd with five songs about trying to turn your life around i just had different cds and what i'd do i'd give the cd to each person as to what I think they would like so I give the man them that one but what was happening is that I gave a man that and then I give his sister a different one but his sister was like yeah but my brother's got one that's got different songs on but I'm like I don't think you'd like that so it was like I was always just I had music enough music to please everyone but then everyone wanted the other songs as well so that kind of made me decide that you know what

if you put everything on 24 songs then maybe they can all be centered to this disc and it can start there and it worked yeah 2003-2006 you were trying to move them CDs

mixtape comes out 2006 yeah but what what were you using as metrics to figure out if it was actually working bro if if i heard my song on the radio we was winning every time i heard it i was like cool and my manager we are yin and yang like i'm all creative and this guy's all genius in another way

so he would be like i'd go to his house and he'd be like, all right, cool. We're going to this show in Nottingham. These people are performing. When you see this guy, he thinks he knows you, yeah? Cause I've messaged him off your account and you'd have had a conversation. So just make sure you say hello to him. Da, da, da, da, da. I'm just like, how do you even know who's who?

But he'd already engineered some idea. And so then we were like proper, like the first station to proper like really show us mad love was like one extra so it's like dj cameo bass and viz like all these rasquami all these twin b like all these people were just showing mad love like come in man do an interview and like i like to think i'm likable people like to conversate so we're talking and then this guy will introduce me to a producer then this guy will introduce me to a producer then the producer will introduce me to a next person then we found out about

press and pr started working with a guy called charlie at visions and he was like yeah you pay us 500 pound a month and we can get you in magazines like right magazines crazy like it was just like everything was just one person away So each person introduced us to a different person. And that's how I'm, how I was measuring the growth. So I'm like, I can come back and I'm like, yo, man, I just met this guy, man. He shoots videos. Or I met this guy, he does PR. I met this guy, he's a photographer.

Like, and she was in her head. She's probably thinking, oh, shut up. Like, what's the photographer going to do? But I'm like, it's another step each step each step each step one hand is washing the other and we will wash the whole body i promise you know i mean like in that in that phase you're starting to get these radio plays and stuff which is kind of like a sign for you it's that reinforcement that things you're moving in the right direction yeah was there and i'm sure you get asked this a lot but was there a moment when even your partner

at the time said to you do you know what I think or you could see it because sometimes they don't say it you can see it in their face

when they hear it on the radio they see you know yeah I always knew that I was ticking her off man like in that just in that not in everyone in that aspect

because even like at them times I used to write at home bro I don't know if you've lived with a musician or been around a musician, bro. That beat is on loop for hours. You get what I'm saying? And all I would hear, like, when I pull it back, it's just like, as if you do it again. And I just was like, you know what? I need to just start working in the studio. Like, cause this, like, it's not fair.

Like, when you find your passion, yeah, you find your calling, bro. You're not fair to no one. You're only fair to yourself. Do you know what I'm saying? You're not fair to anyone. Everyone comes second, bro. Everyone. And it's not intentional.

It just is what it is. So me thinking that I'm spending time with her because I'm writing in the house, even though I'm not talking to her, the song's just on loop and I'm writing, I'm thinking I'm spending time with her because I'm writing in the house even though I'm not talking to her the song's just on loop and I'm writing I'm thinking I'm spending time I ain't spending time do you know what I'm saying that's just being present so it's like but then it's like in my head I'm thinking yeah but if I'm in a studio for eight hours it's better that I'm at home yeah that I'm at home but it's it's actually all about me bro it was only all about me my calling and making this making this music this is my like i wake up every day i think music before i go to sleep i think music i used to have a dream that happened every time and in the dream i'm in the studio and i'm

writing a verse and i'd wake up and i'm like i can never remember the verse and i'm trying to remember trying to remember one day i woke up i'm like i need i had a pen and paper by my bed i left it there i wrote out the verse that i wrote in my dream i was like bro this is like to me i'm like i'm believing in this now i'm like this is this has to be fate or something like this has to be engineered by someone higher than you man like from your writing in your sleep literally so just and just going and going and going i want to get up to the point when you release black and white in 2011 yeah what happens between that mixtape coming out in 2006 to 2011 is that what are the most significant moments or pivotal moments where where things took a turn in a good direction okay like more more

exposure and little things happening here and there like mtv asked us to do something for black history month it was like a freestyle that was strong because it showed people i could write perform stick to topic then one extra gave us an award for getting, I think one of our records was the most played. Right. So it was like, that was quite cool. Like most street heat, that was DJ Semtex. Is that punctuation? I think it was punctuation.

Yeah, punctuation. Getting a lot more bookings. And Twin B. Twin B from One Extra. Always having conversations with him like he just gave me an understanding of the game on on the other side because at the time he was working at ministry and he just had so many gems and he made me understand because i used to think like why am i not signed like why was i not signed why Am I not good? Or it's not about good or great. It's about timing.

And it's about what can a label help you do? How can a label help you be bigger? What do you need to achieve before you step into a label? So it was all these conversations, you know, doing loads of collaborations as well. And then Richard Antwi and Twin B, they form a record label called Levels, and they're like, we want to sign you, man.

And I'm like, bro, okay, like, what happens now kind of thing. It's like, now you need a lawyer, now you need, you know, all these other things. And it was just like, once it got to that point, I knew that it was serious, because Richard Antwi had worked with Adele, so many different people, do you get what I'm saying? And I knew knew that it was serious because richard antwi had work of adele so many different people do you know i'm saying and i knew that this guy was serious twin music lover we'd had endless conversations on the phone about music and they had their situation with ministry of

sound so they were like a subsidiary of ministry of sound so it was like sign to levels like you know and ministry as well and i just i just knew that that was the right thing to do at the time when you get that news that yeah they want to sign you what's actually saying do you come home and you're like ha yeah we done it um i don't think i do you know i think i guess by that point just me being about me, the relationship's not where it could have been or where it should have been. Do you know what I mean? So I think by that time we're already- Going our separate ways.

Yeah. Kind of drifting apart. But, um, yes, I didn't get to, to, to kind of have that, that thing. But I think, I think she's,'s you know she's happy for me always been happy for me always want always knew that this was what i needed to do she knew that it was a need and not a want because of the things what everything i was weighing it up against she knew that this is a need like this guy needs to do this like he needs it so yeah and then black and white and then black and white yeah So initially we signed for a single, which was Tractor. That was my ringtone in 2012. Yeah, that was my ringtone.

I don't even know what phone it was, but it was my ringtone when I first, I did one day at university before I dropped out and that was my ringtone from day one. My guy. Yeah. We had that record and Twin said to me, when I put the verses down,

he was like, this song song's gonna change your life really he said that yeah and I was like I don't know how you know that but you're my guy so I'm believing in you and I'm like

I just didn't know what would happen next so I'm still going back to them times when I'd go to the record shops yeah and kind of buy back the CDs to give more so when I'm out in the record shops, yeah, and kind of buy back the CDs to give more.

So when I'm out in the club, if they're playing the tune or they're not playing the tune, I'm making sure they play the song. You get what I'm saying? Like I'm saying, yeah, what does it take? What? All the drinks? Cool. I'll order drinks. Play that song when the drinks come. I'm making sure that this song is being heard. We're trying everything. We're not trying to, our thing was always floor to ceiling. We'd say we'd make sure we'd covered everything floor to ceiling and then yeah bam it goes in the charts and literally everything changed everything changed after that take me through that process so it goes in the charts and then you start just what's it like because i've you know i never had a i never had a hit bro it's like you get throughout that week.

So say like the songs available to buy on Sunday was back then. So Monday morning, like the labels kind of knows the numbers in it. So they're kind of like, you're number eight. I'm like, rah, number eight.'re like yeah but we'll catch we'll catch seven and six maybe five then the next day it's like yeah you're number six i'm like what the hell like and it's just going higher then it gets to four i think and it goes back to five and it's like it's five and it's like rah we got up we want to hold in in in the top five and it's just i don't know i just think at that time yeah you just you you almost step into a vehicle and then it just starts moving and it's like you know

like when you're driving through an area you're looking out the window you're just seeing things and you're just seeing people and but you're just moving it just it was just moving bro like it was just moving it was moving and then you're doing glastonbury and then you're just moving it just it was just moving bro like it was just moving it was moving and then you're doing Glastonbury and then you're doing Wireless and you're doing V Festival and you're doing everything was just moving everything was everything happened so fast that I don't think I don't think I even stopped to take it in at that time and then it and then it was cool you done it once that was one single Now we want to do an album. What's the next single?

It's like, now you've got to do it again. And it's like, I didn't even really know how I'd done it in the first place, if I'm honest. Do you know what I'm saying? It was a cool song, sounded good, and it worked. And then it was just like, okay, make a second single, and then made a second single while making the album. And it was just moving, man.

Everything was just, it happens. You know when they say say like you you wait your whole life for it to happen overnight literally waited a whole life for it to happen overnight and once it happened it just didn't stop it just kept the ball kept rolling man were you prepared for it mentally and i don't know socially were you prepared for that train to pick you up and drag you off into your dream like that I don't think so no but I think luckily the only thing I wanted to do

still at that time was make music I think if I wanted to I can see like how like you know like an artist has a hit and then just all over the papers and just getting involved in different things i can see how that can happen temptation yeah because you end up in other places other than where you should be but for me it was still always about the studio

like i'd go raving but i'd go raving at one o'clock because the engineer is tired or the producer's tired and we finish and i i don't have the best night's sleep i don't sleep too well so it's one o'clock yeah i'd go out but then tomorrow it was studio like it was always i was always in and locked in so i didn't veer from that so i think in a sense i wasn't prepared for one side of it but for what i needed to do i was prepared for and i was serious about my half my half of, yeah. And then, so that album becomes a huge success, a real breakthrough moment for you. And then obviously when the album's done,

you have another pressure, right? Which is the expectation of that album, right? Bro, go again. Do you get what I'm saying? Like flip a coin 10 times and get heads, yeah? All right, cool. Now do another 10 do you know i'm saying it's literally like how am i gonna yeah get heads every time every time do you know i'm saying get heads go and do it well you done it do it go for me like making music is the part that i'm in

control of i never feel pressured about that never because i have i have what i have to say i feel what i feel. And I'm going to pour all of that into music. I'm going to pour all of that into the album. No problem. I just think at that time, what was getting tricky was Ministry was kind of happy that we'd had three top five singles and was kind of just, you know, more as a business, more happy to stay in that domain like

yeah let's just churn out the hits and i think after black and white and all of that and all the things like you know just i think i had a lot of frustration in me and and and and it was it was almost it's almost the side of my life which which I saw my uncle and my dad and all that, talking about the police, like that side of me was coming out. Whereas I'd always mentioned it in my music, I just felt like I wanted, I had something else to say. Do you know what I'm saying? Everything happened with Mark Duggan and all of that.

And I was like, I need to speak about what's going on. And I think it was a bit of a difference of opinion. Do you know what I'm saying? Ministry of Sound wanted, these kinds of songs ain't hit records. So it was a bit of friction. So we had to work our way around that. And it was just about getting to the point

where we could release the album, which was growing over life. And it was just, for me, it was important that I released that record man and and following black and white when you look back on how you reacted and you know that tension with the label and stuff like that in your maturity and wisdom now is there do you wish you'd behaved differently following the the release of that album and its success is there something you wish you'd behaved differently following the release of that album and its success? Is there something you wish you had, you know,

in with the wonder of hindsight? Hindsight, yeah. Change, nah. Yeah? Nah, because I wasn't like, I wasn't aggressive. I just like to understand. I like clarity. And I think what can happen in the industry is not everybody wants to be crystal clear.

Whereas it's like, if you're crystal clear with it and say, you know what if we can get another don't go and another tractor and another blackout then whatever so it's like all right cool then you understand an assignment of what you're after but it's like if you're not being crystal clear then it kind of leaves you in limbo so you're sending in songs and it's just like and they're not being clear about what yeah it's like the feedback's a bit like don't think this one's a single it's like say it was a single just said it was a song like kind of thing do you know i mean so it's like yeah just trying to gain understanding i think that was what my frustration was was like just getting understand but twin b obviously twin b and richard andrew always kept it 100

always was just like look if we can have if there's any moments where we can i think they're like you need to say what you need to say in it do you know i'm saying and if them other moments arise we'll find them and you'll engineer them you're the best at doing that you know when you're comfortable to do it you do it do you i'm saying there ain't no pressure coming from our way and i came came up with six words which was um written within that within that space and within that time and i was like all right cool i've got one the one you want it's the one you want kind of thing um so yeah but i think with hindsight i didn't like i didn't fly off the handle i didn't i didn't i didn't get angry i'm not i didn't get aggressive it was

pointless did you stray away from your like your principal passion of making music during that phase did you did you find yourself like not showing up obsessed in the studio in the same way after that hit because sometimes when people reach the mountaintop they they lose a bit of orientation and motivation sometimes and you know there's other temptations now you've got a bit of money so you don't need to be the hunger's slightly different nah nah nah love it like i think for me always wanting to be the best rapper always wanted to say the sickest things the things that people are like how did you get to that do you know i'm saying like so that that never left me so like there was always freestyles there there was always, you know, always raps, always verses, you know, collaborations. Like at the time, like my manager, Zeon used to say to me, like,

he used to be like, bro, sometimes you gotta make something make sense. Like these people are asking you for a feature. They want to pay you 20 bags of verse or 10 bags of verse. And you're saying no, and you're bridging round the corner is rapping you're giving a verse for free like we've got a I'm not saying don't do the verse for free but I'm saying there's

you get what I'm saying there's some over here that make that verse make sense as well so it's like also as well navigation and just being like

oh yeah yeah yeah you're right kind of thing and just some things work well for positioning do you know what I mean as well but just

always yeah just always wanting to be the best artist man just always wanting to have the best album i think that's something that's never left me and i think if that does leave you as an artist that's probably when it's like you know like when you see mike tyson in the ring at the end and he's fighting some guy you haven't heard of and he's just mashing him up and you're just like Mike man do you know I'm saying like Mike five years ago you would have finished him but it's like Mike's not Mike do you know I'm saying Mike ain't got that you don't love it anymore do you know I'm saying he's the love's gone you can see it in his eyes and I feel like if that happens to you as a musician it's yeah it's not

it's not good to kind of like mess up your legacy man like one of the things that's always made you stand out even when i listen to your fire in the booths and i listen to all of them i have them on replay i actually played one last night to my girlfriend i was like richie's coming i played uh the one you did with is it avalino yeah i played that one a lot. Is the subject matter of what you write about isn't about buying Rolexes and fast cars. Now, as a young black man myself, I tend to feel a sense of disappointment when I go on Instagram and I see like the new school of like hip hop artists

all putting their hands in and showing their rollies because for me, it's leading um our people astray in the sense because i would like them to show their investment portfolio or their the equity they have in businesses and stuff because like you know um what's your stance on that i actually was gonna put some stuff on my story the other day because i saw i don't want to name names because it's not about individuals it's about a culture um i saw some rappers that actually follow me some big big hip-hop uk rappers that follow me all like showing off the material things and it really disappoints me because i know there's thousands in this case there's 800 000 people that follow this guy and they're now gonna aspire to buy gucci before they invest

their money or put it away what's your thoughts on this i think we've growing up yeah i think like we were so like bedazzled by the american rap culture and we'd always seen them have things have jewelry have all these things and whatever and i think even myself at a point for me that was like a trophy or a measure of success do you get what i'm saying it's like the rolex was a measure of success and i and i think like like i've heard you say yourself as well it's like once you get it it's like it doesn't really make you feel in size yeah it doesn't really give you nothing like that and i think we haven't had we haven't had the luxury of of information and i think information comes from people who look like you and people who have been through it had success and are able to tell you so now i'm in that position i'm able to talk to an 18 year old

and be like yeah man you can get that but at the same time make sure you've got that one of the dumbest things i'd ever done in my life i don't think i've said this anywhere is so obviously when i um out of my mum's got a a council flat. Bro, when I signed my deal, I left my house. I left the whole house and just went, left the council house, left, just left it. But people at the time were saying to me, yo man, buy it, like, why don't you buy it? And I'm like, I don't, I'm not gonna live here.

Like, it was in Tottenham, I'm like, I'm not gonna live here. I'm gonna, you get what I'm saying? And they were like, no, you don't, just buy it. But the people that were telling me to buy it didn't own a house. So I'm like- What do you know? Yeah, what do you get what I'm saying? And they were like, no, you don't, just buy it. But the people that were telling me to buy it didn't own a house. So I'm like- What do you know? Yeah, what do you know?

Like I live in Princess Park Manor. Do you get what I'm saying now? Like this is gated community. Like this is way better than this, bro. That was a very stupid mistake. Should have bought that. That'd be my first one on the ladder. Do you get what I'm saying?

They give you a discount, bloody, bloody, blah, whatever. But even though I had the information it wasn't coming from a success story it wasn't coming from someone that had done it before do you get i'm saying so now i'm the first one that's like yo where you're gonna rent like think about what you're doing because then even myself, like I was in Princess Park Manor forever and even in there, like I wasn't ever like thinking about buying property

and they were like, don't you want to buy the one that you're in? I was like, nah, I'm not going to be here forever. Like in my eyes, property was,

you buy to live, not buy to let. And you can't move. Yeah, do you get what I'm saying? So in my head, I'm thinking, nah,

I'm going to buy where I'm going to live. But I'm like. And you can't move. Yeah, do you get what I'm saying? So in my head, I'm thinking, no, I'm going to buy where I'm going to live. But I'm like, I never really understood that. No, you can buy and move and just own it and then rent it yourself. Do you get what I'm saying? I didn't really understand the principle of that. So I understand. I understand why it happens.

I understand why we want all these trophies. I get it. But i think it's about people like myself who can now conversate with the with the younger lot and be like look man like i get it it looks nice but bro like this music is game of thrones bro music is game you see game of thrones they kill the main character bro do you get i'm saying they don't mind doing that music is game of thrones bro you're michael jackson on monday you're t.o jackson on tuesday bro like and then you can't be michael again by sunday you get i'm saying like the it's musical chairs bro like you have to understand we're not always going to be number one forever so just make sure you're

you're buying a foundation for your foundation man yeah when you had you know your first big breakthrough moment at the time did you somewhere in your mind think that this was meant that you would be number one forever is there part of you that goes oh we've done it now in terms of like now i know this the uh the equation yeah a bit of complacency maybe i kind of think like the more you understand, because obviously at that time, there's a route to get to number one. And it's like your song's launched by Mr. Jam or Annie Mac

and then the pre-order's out and then you go for playlisting or Radio 1, One Extra, Capital. And there's a route that puts you on the pitch do you get what i'm saying yeah to get it so there's a couple of steps so but the problem is you can't believe in the root more than you believe in the fruit so you can't think that this root can work with whatever fruit you give it do you get i'm saying you still still has to be an apple bro do you know what i'm saying

like it still has to be fruitful it still has to be a record a sick record do you get i'm saying so then you know you like we've had some records that i thought yeah like there's one or two that i thought like the root can carry it and then when the root don't carry, you, like, we've had some records that I thought, yeah, like, there's one or two that I thought, like, the root can carry it. And then when the root don't carry it, you realise, like, nah,

this, this don't work every time. You don't, once again, you don't, you don't just, you don't get 10 heads in a row, bro.

You get what I'm saying? You get tails one time and then it's, and then it's how you bounce back from that. Have you had to talk to me about bouncing back from that then? Cause, you know, even as a fan of yours, like I'll play,

I'll play records of yours when they drop and I'll be like, I'll say to my boys, we've got this little chat on WhatsApp. I'll say, this one is a fucking, like this one is,

I'm like, this one's going to be right. And then it might not get there and another one might. You must have that all the time. And how do you manage the expectation of like building, creating a project,

you believing that it's X, Y, and Z. z i mean i do that with these podcasts as well you just never know like which episode's gonna bang right and then putting it out there and that bit being out of your control how does that feel like and if you had moments like that where you've created something and put it out there you go? you have to understand that that's the side that we're not in control of do you get what I'm saying? like and as an artist just make it for you make it for you

put your best foot forward but make it for you because if I make a song that I think is rubbish but I think everyone's gonna like yeah and I put a song out

everybody likes it it goes to number one. I now have to perform this song. This song is in my discography. This is in my catalogue. Like my great, great, great grandkids are going to hear this song. Do you get what I'm saying?

And not even have had a conversation with me. That's going to be their representation of their great, great, great, great, great grandfather. Be proud of your art, man man do you get what I'm saying be proud of it so for me it's like I put my blood sweat

tears and skin in my album when it comes out if they like it if they don't like it what can I I can't

I can't do anything more than I done and I put my best foot forward and i think you have to live by that man because you either you you either have the hit that you don't like or you put out the record that you don't like and it's not a hit so now you've got a now you're wrestling back to get back to where you was for something you didn't even like anyway do you get i'm saying just put your best foot forward man and stay true to yourself yeah stay true to yourself man because it's your this is your legacy like me now i try and look at my like it all made sense to me when i started seeing my career from

the end to today and i'm like what what what navigates me is, will I be happy with this at the end? So I make a song today and I'm listening to the tune and I'm like, will I be happy with this at the end? Yeah, it can work for today then. But if I feel like at the end, I might feel like, ooh, I don't think you should have put that one out. It's not worth it. It's not worth it.

It's not worth it, bro. Oh yeah, what we got, what we got, how many, we get 80 years maybe now, whatever. Like your legacy can, can triple that, bro. Do you get what I'm saying? Like have the right one.

Have the right one. You got, you're in control of that. That's what you are in control of. And you've had a taste of the like, the empty nature of like fame and like people writing about you every single second and people running up and falling in and all this stuff you've tasted that so what what have you learned about what that means being on dragons then now i get it a little bit more so i get

people coming up to me and stuff and i'm in the early stages of like figuring out what it means to you know like have daily mail reporters standing outside the house here and taking photos of me my girlfriend when we walk out and i'm trying to understand what this attention means is it something i can use does it make me feel good what is it it it didn't make me feel good man i didn't that's one thing i've i've always wanted to be in the shadows like i've always not wanted that part of it some people understand understand how to use it though. Do you get what I'm saying? Because say, for example, you're designing clothing and it's like every time they shoot you,

they're putting it in a magazine. Do you get what I'm saying? Like you're being mass exposed and your clothing is being mass exposed. But it's like, if you don't have, if you don't wish for that, if you don't desire for that, then it's like, I feel's it was useless for me being in the front of certain magazines for for nothing like nothing artistic do you get i mean and i know

people say like any publicity is good publicity i'm like sometimes you can just be famous for nothing i know i wants to be the guy that's like the most famous person in the world and no money. Do you know what I mean? Or like, and I don't say money like to be rich. I just mean like everyone knows who you are and everywhere you're walking, you're stopping and having a conversation, taking a picture, taking a this, taking a that, taking a that. But like your thing's not in order. Like you're not going to feel good being that person. So like I just, yeah, I never, I never i never really liked it man i never liked it man i was the one i was hiding from the pipes man all the time in your come up did you ever experience what they call

like imposter syndrome walking into rooms and feeling like what the fuck am i doing here or being in situations and going like i don't know if i deserve this that voice inside for a short period of time. But you know who made me overcome that? Richard Antwi. Like he passed away, but he's such a champion. This guy would walk, he walks into any meeting fearlessly. Like you could be sitting down with the head of HMV

and he's going to tell them, yeah, you need to take 20,000 of our CDs and da, da, da, da, da. And you're just like, yeah, you need to take 20,000 of our CDs and da-da-da-da-da. And you're just like, rah, like, you're just, like, he made me feel like, you're you, bro. Like, you're gold. You're the gold as well, you know, you're gold, bro. Like, don't now walk into that room and because you think everything in here is gold, become silver. No, no, no, I'm gold as well. Do you get what I'm saying and i think being around him and then that dripped down to my manager zion as well and he's got that thing as well where

bro we were like we were having like i remember i remember we were um we done a thing with lucas aid where they put us on like on the balls yeah on the bottles yeah and i remember like us sitting down we were like tapping each other so like yeah what do you want to put on the bottles yeah and I remember like us sitting down we were like tapping each other so they're like yeah what do you want to put on the bottles like yeah man you want to put our estate but I'm thinking they're going to say no but they're like

yeah yeah that would be sick like yeah picture of our estate yeah yeah and what else yeah man and this and that

and I realised I was like you can get the things that you think you can't get you can get like you are the gold as well. There's a reason why Lucas Aid want to partner up with Retro 2.

Do you get what I'm saying? Like there's a reason. And it's like, sometimes we think it's, they're so big. They don't, but it's a two way thing. It's a two way street. So I think, yeah, for a short period of time I did, but then like Zion, Richard, Twin, like they just made me understand the importance

of like knowing your worth yeah knowing your worth and just being fearless man just walking into any room as me like and and like I did feel that as well at certain times because obviously now we see the festival lineups like Wireless and all that like you see Miss Banks you see Steph London you see Getch you see Giggs you see you see so many names 2011 it wasn't like that like you see Miss Banks you see Steph London you see Getch you see Giggs you see so many names 2011 it wasn't like that bro you see Tiny you might see Chip you see Wretch

do you get what I'm saying it was like or certain festivals I'm the only representative of this genre so it's like when you're stepping into that like then you're feeling like

if I mess up like if I even forget one line of my lyric they ain't booking no one next year do you get what I'm saying so it's like then you've got this thing Then you're feeling like, if I mess up, if I even forget one line of my lyric, they ain't booking no one next year. Do you get what I'm saying? So it's like, then you've got this thing where it's like the fight song where you're fighting for the scene. You know what I mean?

And you've got to wear it like a badge of honor. I remember doing Glastonbury and the guy who books the tent, standing on the side or whatever. I can't remember what festival it was, but it was standing on the side. It's asking me bare questions. Like, why do you have two drummers? It's just like, bro, I've got electronic sounds on my album. He plays electric, he plays acoustic.

Like, so the music's going to sound exactly like the record. Oh, how come you set your stage up like this? How come, how come? Like so many questions that I don't feel like you was asking anyone else. You just wanted to check if we knew what we was doing and at that point to be fair not everyone's shooting in the dark do you get i'm saying everyone's we're all guessing bro at that point we're all shooting in the dark just don't be the casualty don't be the one that gets

hit that was that was the fairy so um yeah we just felt our way through but them times i did used to feel a little thing but then afterwards i was like nah man i'm coming like we're coming we've got stuff to add i've got hit records as well they want to hear us and then the festival lineup needs to be more diverse like we're 10 years after that now and the festival lineup is more diverse but i do feel like at that time if tiny tempo wasn't turning up or chip wasn't doing what he had to do even professor green wasn't doing what he had to do do you know i mean like tin she had to do what he had we had to get it right and we had to or we i don't know if we'd be here today when you come from the estate like you do and you you end up in these like boardrooms and these fancy meetings with these

you know rich white men in suits um what i see in a lot of like young young people from those those kind of backgrounds is they kind of walk through life with a bit of a an expectation that the cards are stacked against them yeah and i i worry sometimes that that belief whether it's true or false it is often true the belief that the cards are stacked against you can be equally or more harmful than the cards actually being stacked against you yeah do you know what i mean yeah the belief of the cards being stacked against you can be the deterrent of you even playing the game exactly do you get i'm saying i don't even want to deal now like don't deal me in like there's no point i'm gonna lose anyway you know what i saying? But I don't know what that comes from,

but I was fortunate, man. Like I can't, I can't say enough. Like Richard Antwi, like just, just a G. He was a lawyer, he was a lawyer as well, a music lawyer. So he, he understood that side as well. So he could, he could speak whatever language. Do you get what I'm saying? At any table, he could, like if they started talking about splits and points, he can, he can go there with you. Do you get what I'm saying? At any table, he could,

like if they started talking about splits and points, he can go there with you. Do you get what I'm saying? So when you're walking into a game with that, bro, you're fearless, bro. Green Machine. You started this business with your business partner and it's now, I believe,

the largest CBD shop in Europe by number of shops that you have yeah by number of stores Square Feet they say oh by Square Feet tell me about Green Machine Green Machine if I'm honest

I'm someone who like don't believe in paracetamols I don't like take stuff like that a mate of mine was always telling me that like he's going into this CBD space and I'm like, what's CBD? And he's like, it's basically a natural alternative to medicine. So I'm like, okay, it's like, it's going to be, it's going to be the future. It's going to be

the future. So I'm like, all right, cool. What does it do? He's like, well, people come in, cancer patients, people with MS, people with fibrom it do? He's like, well, people come in, cancer patients, people with MS, people with fibromyalgia, people with lupus, people that can't sleep, people that suffer with severe headaches. Okay, and what does it do for them? It, I wouldn't say it cures them, but it helps them manage their illness.

So I'm like, all right, cool. So to me, this sounds like paracetamol. Because I don't believe in paracetamol, it don't work on me. So I don't need to, I don't take it. I haven't taken it for years. So I'm like, all right, cool. So I go and link him and I get all the products. Yeah, I get all the products

and I give it out to family members. Someone's got fibromyalgia. Can you just try that and just tell me what happens? Like, it's absolutely nothing to do with me. Just give me honest feedback. Se feedback severe headaches you can't sleep anxiety whatever giving it out giving it out everyone came back and was like i couldn't sleep i'm now sleeping or the times when i was having joint problems i'm rubbing the cream on and i'm okay so i'm like all right cool i haven't told

these people this might potentially be anything to do with me they're just being honest i'm like all right cool what do i have that i can personally try so i'm like all right i can't sleep so let's try some of those try some of those but i'm sleeping i'm like all right this is a real thing so then like i was like cool let me have a conversation with like the actual founder yeah uh a guy called paul who's absolute genius in this realm and i'm like what's your story he's like well chronic arthritis and he literally like has a cannabis background but he was using cbd to help manage his pain and he was like well why can't we you know open it as a business and you know start start moving forward and helping people you know um so yeah and then i was just like i haven't like put a lot of time focus and money into a lot of other things other than music.

And I've always been waiting to find something, but I wanted to find, like, I didn't want to go down a clothing route. Like I want something that reflects who I am. I'm an individual who likes to help people. Do you get what I'm saying? Likes a people's person.

And I honestly think like, this is like the future of medicine man like and so hopefully you know it will go down the route where it will become prescribed like if you look at if you and and for us it's like it's about growing the business we're hoping to have like between 50 and 75 stores within the next three years wow um and hopefully if it goes to the point where it it does turn into like a former chemist like the fingers of the chemist you go there and you're like i've got a headache what can i take they recommend you a thing or i've got itch on my back you can actually speak to someone

and they can tell you oh no no you're better off getting that cream that works better for you cool like we want to be that kind of version for people that come in because it's it's a two-way educational street because people are coming in a lot of people coming with ms a lot of people coming with cancer and i'm like as much as everyone in the stores are equipped to tell them there's still new things to learn and there's like still new ideas for different products and it's just a new space that you know i get to to put some focus in and this is is something that i think is is honestly going to benefit people as well and we've tried a lot of the products they're all amazing this one actually tastes amazing as

well the grapes written mint drink and we went down there earlier we got some coffees and some other and some of the oils and stuff the creams that i'm going to try as well super interesting the other thing that you're involved in which i think is a fairly new thing is the def jam position so you're now the creative director there yeah that's dope that is just mad yeah it's i'm working with a like such a cold bunch man like everyone everyone's extremely talented man and I think for me more than anything like it's sick to be on this side because understanding it from the other side like being the artist coming into an office or coming into an environment I'm gonna know the answers to a lot of the things what they're asking because I've been through it as

well so um always on my come up like I've always worked or had long conversations with artists that are coming, like whether it be Stormzy or it be Avelino or it be Young'un, Clepton, whoever it may be. And I think like there was never like a role or a title or nothing. And it's like, you're not doing that for money or for finance.

Like you literally want to see the game nourish. You want to see everyone blossom. So it's like the game's got bigger and i think now it's about showing that we're able to work in the infrastructure and add value do you know i'm saying like it's it's valuable artists being inside to be able to speak to artists. Do you know what I'm saying? To be able to create, to be able to implement ideas. Because what happens is you, like I say, like we jumped on a train at the beginning of 2011 and it just moved. And then I had to meet a tour manager and I had to meet a booking agent and all these things.

And it's like, I can literally talk you through everything step by step. And that's like, if we're signing artists at Ground Zero, sometimes there's artists that are already, put a paper, he's already here, already established. He signed to us. But it's like just having artistic conversations with artists. Do you know what I mean? And I think it's beautiful, man.

I wake up and think art, wake up and think creative. So to be able to be in a space where I'm able to do that with artists that I love and respect, with people that I love and respect as well win-win man yeah earlier on you said till death do us part i noticed you um don't have a wedding ring on no no no no what's the situation there you're in a relationship you date in also uh yeah in a relationship not married have you struck have you struggled with relationships or have you have you found it being a fairly obsessive person because throughout your story i had i saw this word hunger over and over again yeah other people described you and i'm thinking back to ashley on that kitchen table getting annoyed at you you know yeah i think

i'm understanding balance a lot more i think that's come with maturity and that's come with age like balance is important i had no balance back then none it was all about making this happen and i don't know if it's because it happened do you know i'm saying maybe if it doesn't happen maybe we don't get this version of me where i'm more understanding that you've got to divide time i think also what what was a big eye-opener for me like once again talking about jumping on that train yeah um from like 2011 to 2014 15 bro certain times my family's having conversations yeah and i'm like what when was that i know that that was when you was off yeah it's like i was it's like i was dead for four years i was just off the grid and it's

like it's never ever sat well with me do you know i'm saying so now like i make a conscious effort conscious decision to be like as someone who is the back the backbone and the head of the family to be it do you know i'm saying because there's two there's two types of of you know of men that hit the family and it's and it's one that everyone's financially okay and when if there's any red letters but then there's a there's the one that's able to do that but is also there as well like an hour on the phone or let's go and sit down and talk for four hours is as powerful as someone who can make a bill vanish do you get what i'm saying and i think in 2011 i was more the other guy yeah i'll sue it out i get um phone this person that can sue it out phone like someone can sue it this person that can sue it out. Phone, like someone can sue it out. I'm suing it out.

But it was like, I'm missing and it doesn't make me feel good. I'm like, I miss graduations and do you know what I mean? Like so much things that because you're busy,

they might not invite you to now because we asked you to come last week but you couldn't make it. Like I was generally out of the country but maybe I could have made that one but you didn't ask. Do you know what I mean? So it's like,

it doesn't feel good, man. I think I'm probably red light guy now. It horrible bro yeah and not giving enough attention to family in that regard like how do you how do you balance it or you with my family really really it's a really difficult thing um they they kind of live all over the place as well so they don't all live in one place so really like what i do is i try and bring everyone together for christmas and i fund the situation at christmas um but i know i'm not doing a good enough job and it's something i'm gonna work on fortunately i met a young lady who is very unnegotiable about balance and like i genuinely feel that if i don't i've got to make sure my terminology is correct here because sometimes

sometimes when people describe their relationships especially people that are really obsessive, they start to use words like, which make it seem like I'm doing something to please someone so that they don't go. Where it's not, it's I want to do it, but she has given me the desire to want to be balanced in my life. Which means like today, during the work day i went for lunch with her then came back quickly and like carried on with my research on you and

stuff i would never have done that before yeah i would have just woken up in the morning eight o'clock and i would have worked till 1am until i'd fallen asleep and then i would have said to whoever i was with probably kind of like gaslighted them in some way and said like you don't understand yeah nah nah you found the right person then because then you wanna then I wanna do it

it's not compliance yeah then you wanna do it you know what I'm saying then you want to it's about balance man it's about balance and even me

with the kids as well like I've got my son's 15 yeah my daughter's 10 it's like that balance as well like it you know at the 15. Yeah, my daughter's 10. It's like that balance as well. Like, you know, at the time when I had my daughter and we then, you know, then, but we separated

and it was like, it hurts me. Like my daughter, she has no recognition of living with me. Do you know what I'm saying? It's like, she's like, yeah, my mum said like, like you used to live, like, I'm like, what do you mean? Yeah, I used to, of course I used to live there. You should wake up and come to me and, I remember.

Then I'm like, I need to overextend to build this relationship because my son has that. We've had that waking up, him going to sleep, waking up, seeing me. Do you know what I'm saying? And it's just them little things where it's like the kids will come over and i'll be like oh we're gonna do this and my daughter might say to me i have to ask my mom so it's like her concept of a dad was probably more

like an uncle yeah do you know what i mean like you know like to your uncle you say no i gotta ask my mom but not to your dad but it's like she, she had to, I was like, no, no, me and your mum were on the same level. Do you know what I'm saying? But because she's not seeing me every day, like, or waking up to me

or do you know what I mean? I'm not tucking her in. I was just like, bro, I had to, it was so important that we get here, we get here,

we get, and we're here now, but it took, it takes time to rebuild, man. So it's better you build it than have to rebuild as well what if um you know when you were shot on those cds and trying to get people to buy those first thousand cds from your mixtape line from my

mixtape what if it just hadn't worked out has that ever crossed your mind what if just you know what if it didn't didn't work out had to had to like the plan b was revert back to plan a anytime you felt like you needed to remotely think about doing something else it was revert back to plan a it was always it was always going to happen there's a lot of people that think that and it just doesn't work out you know yeah Does that haunt you a little bit? I think my need was too much, man. My need was too, I became too good at it. Like the obsession made me better, made me more hungry. I just became a monster, man.

I just, I'm like, no one can rap like I rap. Do you get what I'm saying? But that's because I'm listening to everyone rapping and I'm like, all right, cool. How,. Do you get what I'm saying? But that's because I'm listening to everyone rapping and I'm like, all right, cool. How, rah, this is what they're doing, yeah? Like, all right, triple rhymes, cool. I do quadruple. Do you get what I'm saying?

Like, I was always trying to challenge, trying to push, trying to push, trying to push. And like, when you've been rapping, like when your year group is like Gets or Kano or, I mean, or Giggs or whatever, like that's like man's age group they're my age mate so it's like when you're listening to gets and he's doing that you're like all right cool i can't even slip a second you know i'm saying i've got a i've got a push

i've got a push i've got a push i can't it had to happen man i don't see any the story wasn't ending any other way or like this story wasn't having any other middle. And what would you say to musicians that, you know, are now coming up in this world of TikTok and, you know, what do you think they need to make it and to follow in your footsteps? I mean... Now that you also know the industry as well and the mechanics of that. Because TikTok is powerful now, man.

It's the new tastemaker. It's the new library. It's the new discovery, man. And it's like, so remember when I said that there was a formula and it was like, if that DJ plays it first on Thursday and then TikTok is a part of that formula now.

Like you put a song on that sounds a certain way, it gets a certain amount of views and that's an indicator to the record labels that this song is going to be amongst, you know, on the playing field, the hit playing field. It's become that. And I think you can use it to your advantage,

but I guess once again, like the part we are in control of is the song, is the quality. Like always make sure the quality is top notch, regardless, because all the things, everything else will change, bro. Michael Jackson put out tapes, vinyls. Now Chris Brown goes on streaming platforms. Do you get what I'm saying? And I launched records on radio first. Now they launch records on TikTok. Like everything will change, bro. But the quality will always remain.

You can't skip it. You can't skip leg day, man. You're atting me there. We have a closing tradition on this podcast where the last guest writes a question for the next guest and they don't know who they're writing it for. They always ask, but we never tell them. So they've actually written two questions, which is interesting.

The first question they wrote, I'm going to read them both at the same time, is what for you is the life well-lived? And then they wrote, how do you make the most of this moment? So what for you is a life well lived? And how do you make the most of this moment? A life well lived is waking up every day

and having multiple reasons to smile. And within that, making multiple people smile. I always think like life is a record. So you're on a record, put the needle on and it comes inwards. So it's coming inwards, it's getting smaller and smaller and smaller. Then it gets to the end in the middle and it stops. And my thing is like, what song are you listening to while your time span is shooting? And is it something that's full of purpose, something that's making you smile and something that's energizing other people. And for me, it's like, I want to be able to be a positive soundtrack for key moments in other people's lives as well. So a life well-lived is me being happy, bringing happiness

and being able to also add a soundtrack to people's happiest moments. Great, great answer answer and then the second question was how do you make the most of this moment how do i make the most of this moment living it man living it and i think appreciate it as well i think um i live in it because it's easy to be on that train. I keep going back to that train. It's easy to be on that train and just to keep going, keep going, keep going. But for me, we don't meet anyone for no reason.

There's no meaningless conversation. You know, there's always something to take from a conversation that you thought, what the hell was that about? Do you know what I'm saying? Cause we're all bro.