The Dispatch Podcast - Can Kamala Harris Escape Her Record? | Interview: Bakari Sellers

Episode Date: August 19, 2024

Friend of Vice President Kamala Harris and former South Carolina Representative Bakari Sellers joins Jamie to defend Harris’ unwillingness to sit down for interviews and her ideological fluctuations. The Agenda: —Harris as a “practical progressive” —Evolving policy positions —Harris’ economic agenda —Defending Israel —Jonah owes Bakari a drink? —Racial disparities in modern America —The state of boxing Show Notes: —Nick Catoggio’s Boiling Frogs newsletter on Harris agenda —Jonah’s G-File on price gouging —The life of Cleveland Sellers The Dispatch Podcast is a production of The Dispatch, a digital media company covering politics, policy, and culture from a non-partisan, conservative perspective. To access all of The Dispatch’s offerings—including members-only newsletters, bonus podcast episodes, and weekly livestreams—click here. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Welcome to the Dispatch podcast. I'm Jamie Weinstein. My guest today is Bakari Sellers. He is a CNN political commentator. He hosts his own podcast, author of several books, former elected official in South Carolina. And in many ways, a rising star in the Democratic Party or the Democratic political commentariat. So I brought him on to talk about Kamala Harris, try to get insight about who she is, and push him on some of the criticisms that people have about. her. We also get into some comments that went viral of his from the Bill Maher show and a little boxing topic of a conversation. I'm a big fan. I know he is as well. So I hope you enjoy this episode. So without further ado, I give you Mr. Bekari Sellers. Riccari Sellers, welcome to the Dispatch podcast. Thank you for having me.

I was glad to get the invite in my inbox. Well, we're excited to have you. We wanted to have someone on the show to talk about the vice president and her run for the presidency and maybe answer some of the criticism that are out there and see how what your response would be to them. I didn't know when I first reached out to you, but I had seen subsequently by doing some research that you actually know her at least a little bit. What is the extent? Do you know? What can you tell us about her that listeners might not know? What does she like as a person? And just kind of give us kind of the overview of what you know of her personally. Yeah, no, I know the vice president extremely well. I was a co-chair for her campaign in 2020, which for the Democratic nomination, for president of the United States. We have remained pretty close. I just call her a good friend and somebody that I'm trying to help be the next president of the United States.

United States. It's kind of cool having a friend run for president. I think what people don't know about her is just how personable and down the earth she really is. She left Cook. Dougie is always a laugh. They're very family-oriented. You hear the mamala memes and things like that with her stepchildren and bonus children, as I call them, or the way she's affectionate with her nieces. It's just, she's full of love and she's very, very, very smart, very smart. And I think that that's refreshing and new and different on a political stage. Did you know her before the 2020 campaign? Did you know her before she was in the Senate or was this a, you met her after she got into politics?

No, I met her after she got into politics. I didn't know her. We're not, and joke with her, she'll get mad at me for saying this, but we're not of the same generation. She's a little, although she's a young, little candidate, she's a little bit older than me. And I said, no, I don't, I don't go back to our days of district attorney or attorney general. And we crossed past in 2008, like many people did, what we were supporting. Barack Obama was the chair of the South Carolina campaign for Barack Obama, one of the chairs for the South Carolina campaign for Barack Obama.

And she was a huge supporter. You see the pictures of her on election night in Iowa, you know, jumping up and down, eating pizza after he won that Iowa primary. And so, you know, we crossed past them, but no, we didn't, didn't become friends until her Senate days and our foray into presidential politics. I think our audience is pretty unique. I think we have people that are that are probably reluctantly voting for Trump and the audience, people who will probably vote for the vice president and probably people who are undecided are not going to vote at all. So let me, let me ask you a few of what I think are criticisms of the vice president, see how. you would respond to it. But before I get there, how do you term her, would you call her a moderate? Would

you call her a liberal? Would you call her progressive? What political term would you ascribe to the vice president? I would say she's a practical progressive. I think that she is someone who looks at things with a frame of centering the individuals centering the worker, someone who comes from decently humble beginnings. And so understands that. that journey that it takes to ascertain some level of semblance of success in this country. Many of her policies, as you'll see her put forth, have that lens of worker first or worker forward. But no, she's nowhere near the progressive or liberal frame of someone like, let's say, Bernie Sanders or or AOC. I would say that I think you would probably find her to be more center-left than anything else.

One of the criticisms of the vice president, which I'm sure you've heard, is that she lacks a political core, that she will adopt positions for whatever the election at hand might demand or whatever is popular in the election at hand. For instance, in 2020, when she was running in the Democratic primary, she opposed fracking. Now she says that she supports fracking. with Pennsylvania, obviously an important state coming up in the general election. In 2020, she was for decriminalization of the border. Now she's putting out ads about a tough on-border stance. In 2020, she supported Medicare for all. In 2024, she seems to have backed off that. What is your response to those who say that she lacks a political core and is willing to

flip-flop as the term is, depending on the election cycle? No, I think it was, it's decently insulting and condescending for people to say that she lacked some type of political core. I don't think that you reach the level of success in the American political arena without having some core or standing and having truth at those and values and voters being able to see that. Jamie, I would, I would. But why is it insulting? I mean, if you point out that someone has changed positions, it seems like a fair question. I was going to finish answering the question. I believe that for example, I don't believe that that people ask Donald Trump, someone who actually not only supported her, but wrote her a check when she was running for district attorney, right?

I don't see people asking Donald Trump, who was a huge contributor of Planned Parenthood. But then, you know, put the three people on the court who actually overturned Roby Wade, does he lack some political court? in order to be a woman in this country and a black country and go from being district attorney to attorney general to United States Senate to vice president of the United States to now running toe to toe to toe to and neck and neck if we're president of the United States you have to have some value in political court and you brought up positions in 2020 versus positions today. I will answer that question and I will be forward looking. I would answer that question to say that something happened in those four years. I don't know if we've missed that,

but she was vice president of the United States. She actually served with someone who I dare not say as a flaming liberal. She was actually able to have some semblance of success, whether or not is passing a bipartisan infrastructure reduction act or a bipartisan, excuse me, inflation reduction act or a bipartisan infrastructure bill, being able to govern from as close to the center as you possibly can and seeing the learning the lessons of what works and what doesn't want. And, you know, again, censoring people. But also in your criticism of lack of a political core or asking or attempting to position her as some Fleming liberal, Well, one of the things that I would, you know, ask people to look at is, is her economic plan she put out or is putting out just as we're talking right now, for example.

You look at the fact that one of the issues we're having with our economy, and I think most people, most economists and most people who are looking at this seriously will tell you is that housing is one of the largest issues we have, and it's a supply question. And one of the things that she said was we're going to build three million new homes. Do you think, Bikari, though, do you think, just to the kind of the political core question, We had this debate last week over J.D. Vance. Do you believe he has a political court? I think I don't understand the value and the question. Maybe that's where I'm struggling with the actual question. So I'm actually somebody who's like served in office. Yeah. In run elections and won. And so I think that there's inherently some value in people and what they stand for. Do I believe that J.D. Bants flip-flopped on things like Donald Trump

and calling him a Hitler and now supporting him for president of the United States. Yes. Do I think that he will do anything or does his ambition kind of cloud any other judgment that he may have? Yes. But I don't, I'm not, I'm not, you know, necessarily going to dig in the man's, you know, character and say either he lacks character, does it. I mean, I will adjudicate the policies as they come. Yeah. I mean, I think the question was, does she have, is it fair to ask the question why someone switched? For instance, last week we had this conversation on this podcast with Matt Lewis about J.D. Vance, does, do politicians owe it to explain, in Vance's case, how we went from writing a book saying

his community was to blame to the government being the blame for what's happening his community? Well, then that's the question, Jamie. I mean, you don't, you don't question somebody's political core or moral ethos or character, you ask, why not? Why don't you? I mean, for a because you ask the question. You just simply ask the question. You ask the question, what made you evolve from X to X to Y? And allow people to adjudicate that as such. And I think that's a lot of the problem with the political debate that we're having. We cast aspersions on individuals and we name, call them, or say they lack a political or, which I find to be kind of demeaning and condescending, instead of simply asking the question. So what happened from the Green New Deal to

today or what happened where you didn't support fracking to today. Or in J.D. Vance's case, literally ask him the question or ask someone the question. And do you think that they both have a duty to explain how they got from, you know, from here to there? Unquestionably. I think people want to hear those answers. And you, have you heard yet for why she has switched kind of dramatically on these particular issues? I mean, I think it may be dramatically to you, but I think that the issue of fracking, for example, or the issue of, of, let's take the issue of Medicare for all and what they've been able to do with not just health care and insurance over the last four years, but what they've been able to do with things like prescription drug pricing. There's one thing to run for president of the United States is another thing to be in those rooms and serve and those lessons learn. I mean, you don't just, it's one thing to have policy, and this was one of my criticisms of Bernie Sanders, but it's one thing to have policy.

It's another thing to effectuate change. And so I hear you on flip-flopping and those type things, but I would, you know, I would love to hear your critique on the fact that just last, or just this week, she was a part of an administration that was able to cap drug costs significantly for seniors. And over one, you know, you're talking about millions of individuals who are going to actually see benefit from them dropping and capping prescription drug costs. And so, you know, I hear you want to criticize or ask the. question about that, and that's rightfully so. But on the flip side, I would expect you to be

able to praise some of the successes they've had around health care and their health care achievements. I mean, can you do that? It's not my role to praise their achievements. I probably just say. I mean, is that successful? I probably have a different viewpoint from the center right position on economics and other things from her. So let me ask, we just ask just a very fundamental question as we're traveling down this road. together and I'm going to end up in a place of glory together at the end of this. But are you, are you, are you, uh, are you, uh, are you for or against the negotiation of drug prices that allow for drug prices to be significantly slashed for those individuals

who need them as we saw with the 15 most popular drugs on the country? Yeah, I, I, uh, my concern of those type of things, obviously you want cheaper drugs is that you stymie innovation. Um, I don't know the particular, I haven't read the particular, uh, achievement that it came out there. But I mean, I do think, I mean, it leads into a different question, which is, do you see all the successes of the, that you view of the Biden administration and whatever failures at something? Is that tied to Vice President Harris?

Do you think that she is kind of? No question. The answer is false. I mean, so you have to look at the successes that they've had. And, you know, let's look at the economy, for example. I mean, if you're sober and honest about it, the economic indicators show that we are in a much better place than we were, and we're having a quote unquote soft landing compared to where we were four years ago. But there still is a question about one that my father has, for example, about the price of whiting, the pigly wiggly down the street. I don't know if y'all have pigly wigglies where you're from, Jamie, but where I'm from in the country, we got pigly wigglies.

That's where most people go get their meats and stuff. And so, you know, he's mad about the prices or school supplies, people are shopping. for school supplies now and the cost of those school supplies. And so, yes, while you have good legislation that's passed and you're seeing inflation cool, you're seeing things like the market do amazing, you're seeing wages increase, you're seeing unemployment rates go to historic lows. While you're seeing those indicators, people aren't feeling that. In the same vein for getting credit for whatever successes that you view the Biden administration, does she then have to get in detail where she was in terms of supporting the Afghan withdrawal and some of the

failures that occurred there. Yes. I mean, it's running for president. But see, the difference between the difference between Kamala Harris and the oldest person to ever run for political office in the history of the United States and Donald Trump is that not only do you have to be able to articulate your successes or your past record, but you also have to have to have a forward-looking agenda, and you have to be able to articulate what the future will look like under your administration.

And I think that what people are being able to see and what people are finding refreshing and why she's up in, you know, Philadelphia, excuse me, Pennsylvania, she's up in Michigan. She's up in Wisconsin, you know, usually down slightly in Nevada, up in Arizona, tied in Georgia, upward tide in North Carolina. The reason that you're seeing this is because she's articulating what a vision for the future would look like, right? And one of the things that was both a criticism of Joe Biden and Donald Trump is because of their age, they had a fundamental inability to tell you what the future would look like for people like my children. And that's very difficult for someone who's 78 or 80 years old to talk about a future that they may not be a part of.

But yes, if you want to say that she has to be able to tell you about the Afghanistan withdrawal and the fact that Joe Biden ended a war that had been dragging on for over 20 years, but talk about it. about the fact that lives were lost and the fact that the withdrawal looked discombobulated it best. Does she have to explain that? The answer is yes. Does she have to talk about inflation or the fact that people's pockets are still hurting? The answer is yes. And I think that she knows that. And most people know that. And voters know that. And she needs to answer those questions and also pivot to what the future will hold. So what do you think then the reason is she isn't giving interviews, isn't doing press conferences since she became the nominee. Why did, why, I mean, when did we create this new weird kind of makeshift rule?

I mean, to give interviews. Donald Trump is, Donald Trump has come like, and the reason that I struggle with the question again is because if you frame the question as although Donald Trump has only come outside of his own golf club one time to go to the non-swing state of Montana, He's done one interview from his lobby in Mar-Largo or one interview in his lobby at Bedminster. But Kamala Harris has actually been on the trail even today in the swing state of North Carolina articulating an economic policy agenda for voters, like actual real people. If the question's framed as such, then so be it. But, I mean, you wanted to do an interview.

Okay, why? And you wanted to do a press conference? I mean, that's kind of why? Why? Why do an interview in a press conference? I mean, I guess it's, is, is actually, but she's actually talking to voters. Like, Donald Trump hasn't, Donald Trump hasn't been in a swing state or a state outside of one that has his golf club other than Montana in the last three weeks. I mean, our, I'm assuming over the last few podcasts, you've asked a question as to why that is, right? We have different, different topics. The answers, no, but okay, that's fine. But no, but why? I mean, it's a fair question. I think it's a question that should be asked of him. And he does, he does give interview so. But she's going to, she's going to do an interview and so you know, then she's going to sit down with radio hoax and do those.

But this seems like a campaign answer, honestly. But why do you think they don't want her to do interviews? Why do you think that they have avoided doing, you know, even interviews with with the, with the reporters that travel with her? What do you think the reason is? Well, first of all, that's not accurate. has actually spoken to reporters at trial with or she doesn't and you don't have to call it off the record yeah she's spoken to she's made her no no but not she's not given on the record interviews of the she's with i'm just you just to be accurate she's actually framed that to frame it correctly um so we're not miss speaking i don't want anybody accuse anyone either one of us of that but she's actually spoken to reporters on her plane i don't really honestly i don't think that she owes anybody inside the beltway any answers to why she's the american i mean what do you mean And, you know, the most amazing thing about that is I'm not sure that the American people are clamoring for a Lester Hode interview.

But what they are clamoring for is like, this is the weird part about this. Like, why won't she give an interview when that usually comes from people who, like me and you who do this every single day? But people who are like paying attention in the state of North Carolina, for example, there is going to be one seven, eight front page stories tomorrow about her economic policy. plant? Like, that matters to folk. When she was in Arizona, the fact that she is talking about not raising taxes on people who make less than $400,000, that matters. Or when she was in Nevada and not taxing tips, that matters. You may be right, Bacari, but there is a strategic decision not to do it. And I guess my question is, what do you think is behind the strategic decision? I don't think people see them. I don't think people see the value or necessity. I don't

I mean, she has a very packed schedule. I don't know if you know her schedule, but I'll help you here. Next week, she's going to spend time in the western portion of Pennsylvania. She and Tim Walts are going around the Pittsburgh area. While we'll be in Chicago drinking liquor and enjoying ourselves, I'll be with Jonah having a good time. I think he owes me drinks this time. But we'll be out there campaigning and doing that, and she'll be in Wisconsin. You know, I am not going to apologize for her.

her not sitting across from Joe Scarborough or Lester Hope and sitting there and answering questions for 30 minutes when she's actually doing things that people should do, which is like campaigning. But do you actually think it's not good for candidates to speak to the press and answer questions? I mean, it seems, no, I mean, that time comes and it will come. I mean, you, you, not you. I'm not, when I say you, sometimes I'm talking about you. In this particular time, it's a generalization, but people have now this new arbitrary belief that, oh, she's been in the race three weeks. She owes us this. I actually think she does, to be honest.

I think she does owe American people to sit down if you're running for president. Because if you're running for president, you kind of... Why at three weeks and five weeks? I mean, she, like, I can't, you can't force some... You can't, I can. You can't force somebody. I mean, it's better to do more than less, I would say. You know, I can't force her to give an interview, but I think it's kind of incumbent of

anybody running for president to answer questions, like some of the questions I asked you about why she switched. Yeah, and she will, I'm sure. And not only that, but, but Jamie, you're going to get an awesome opportunity because unfortunately for many people who may be voting for Donald Trump, what they will see is that this is not in a vacuum. It's not an up or down referendum on Kamala Harris. The question is, is the next four years going to be better under the chaotic administration that would be Donald Trump is very juvenile and very condescending? Or do you want a more refreshing new future that's inclusive under Carmel and Harris? And you will be able to see that not once but twice on stage side by side.

So your questions are going to be answered. Yeah. But just before we move on, in principle, do you think it's good that candidates give more interviews and not less to the press? I don't have an opinion one way or another. I think that each campaign is different. I think that campaigns and candidates are vastly different. If I was running the Donald Trump campaign, he would be giving a lot less.

So I think I don't know how to answer you that other than I would have him not speaking to the press. I would have him out doing the big rallies, motivating the base, etc. I would have him actually campaigning. But she's going to do those things. And then the funny part is that they're media. That's the political operative speaking. Yeah. And I'm going to tell you this, what I'm advising her to do is to not even, not even go to the outlets that you care about.

Like not even go to the sit down on, you know, I don't know, the Fox with the five host show or not even go to the morning joke show. I'm not even, I want her to sit down and call into local radio. I want her to call in the drive time and local radio in Pennsylvania. in Georgia, in North Carolina. I want her to maybe sit down with one or two podcast hosts. I want her to do non-traditional media. There are no rules. And if all of a sudden people, particularly individuals who are very ardent supporters of Donald

Trump want to now envelop her in these new rules, well, for the past eight years, your guy has destroyed every norm we know. And there are no rules regarding media interaction. And I want her to go to places in those non-traditional media outlets outside the beltway and continue meeting voters. And that's probably going to piss y'all off too. Okay, let me just put the question this way then. Is it, is it fair to see this strategy and say, well, this strategy might be let the other candidate kind of self-immulate by giving interviews and not have my record question, because the other candidate is, you know, hurting

himself. I'm just going to let him, you know, light himself on fire while, you know, And be clear. I think that one of the things you're some, your answer is probably 50% true because the more Donald Trump talks, the more we appreciated. I mean, I just think everybody who is kind of in this little Kamala Harris camp will take the hour long Elon Musk interview or the press conferences, et cetera, because they just, they just saw somebody that's clearly diminished. But on the other side, I think one of the things that Kamala Harris is trying to do. And one of the things that we haven't addressed yet either is just, lay out this economic policy. I'm trying to get us there because you're talking about her policy and you've used the word flip-flop a lot. But one of the things that we haven't talked about at all

is the fact that she's actually laid out a fundamental economic policy agenda for the country. She's actually talked about price gouging, right? She's talked about raising minimum wage. What would you do to stop what you see is price gouging? She's actually talked about a federal brand on price gouging. And one of the things they tried to do over the last four years. How do you define it? One of the things, one of the things, one of the things, that they've done over the last four years that we have seen is that particularly in the meatpacking industry, there are four or five meatpackers. And I'm still learning about this. So don't get me, I can't tell you the details of it. But they're four or five meat packers,

which really are consolidated, which run the industry and are driving up costs. And one of the things they want to do is decentralize that. And that is why they've actually attempted to get grants and tax credits to those independent meatpackers who are outside of those big four or five to help, in your words, one of the things you want to do, help decentralized and help not stymie growth, but spur growth in that industry because we're seeing a lot of gouging and we're seeing a lot of price increases that are arbitrary in that particular industry. But there is an entire, I mean, if you want to focus on fracking, that's rightfully so. It's a good question.

If you want to focus on Medicare for All, that's a good question, right? But are you going to talk about the fact that she wants to work with states to alleviate medical debt? I mean, are we going to talk about the fact that she actually has a very conservative policy when it comes to home building? And actually the home builders who are, I don't know if you are very familiar, but I would assume you are that every conference of American home builders are actually in favor. It's one of the more conservative unions, for lack of a better term, or trade organizations, probably the more accurate term, but actually give tax credits to home builders for building first time homes for first time home builders. buyers. Like those things are very important. Those things matter. And those aren't actually these pie in the sky liberal ideals. Those are actually middle of the road conservative ideals that are going to help spur our economy. But that's a good conversation to have. You've got to have both is my

only point. Well, Baccaria, it seems like the memo of the day here is, as you want to talk about the economic policy that the vice president is putting out there. And I encourage listeners to go read about it. Not long ago, I saw someone go through a sudden loss, and it was a stark reminder of how quickly life can change and why protecting the people you love is so important. Knowing you can take steps to help protect your loved ones and give them that extra layer of security brings real peace of mind. The truth is the consequences of not having life insurance can be serious. That kind of financial strain on top of everything else is why life insurance indeed matters. Ethos is an online platform that makes getting life insurance fast and easy,

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All seamlessly integrated. Go to Squarespace.com slash dispatch for a free trial. And when you're ready to launch, use offer code dispatch to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. I want to ask you about something more broadly within the Democratic Party. There have been, and it was maybe a couple months ago, I did see a spate of some public never-trumper's questioning whether they might this time support Trump over what they see as the rise of anti-Semitism and anti-Israeli

sediment within parts of the Democratic Party, particularly since October 7th. You are very pro-Israel, but what do you make of those elements of the Democratic Party? How significant are they and how much do you think they will shape policy within the Democratic Party on Israel? So I, you know, for me, I don't, I like to start with the simple fact, Jamie, where we level set that there is no place for anti-Semitism in the political spectrum or discourse. And I struggle with anyone who believes that that should be a part of public discourse. But I also push back on the notion of that it's a Democratic Party problem. You just saw Republican voters in Minnesota select Royce White as their nominee who is anti-woman and anti-Semitic.

You've heard Mark Robinson utter things that are rooted in nothing more than anti-Semitism as the gubernatorial candidate for the state of North Carolina for the Republican Party. And I would do even a flip side as people try to parlay this into a democratic issue and say that we have had no more Zionist president in the history of the United States of America than Joe Biden. And just recently, if you want to talk about recent successes as of this week, I think my day, we started kindergarten this week. So I'm struggling with weeks and days. But just this week, it may have been the end of last week. but you saw the largest arms deal ever with the state of Israel by the Biden administration. And so when you ask, how would it shape policy, my question, and you're talking to someone who actually in 2016 helped formulate the democratic platform on Israel and making sure that people understood that this was an American value that Israel had a right to protect herself. And we want to safe and secure Israel.

And so this is something that's very near and did in my heart. But I think that one of the things that happened along the way is we made Israel a political football. And when I first began a lot of my activism around the issue in 2004, 2005, one of the things that we realized was that Israel was nonpartisan or bipartisan or every partisan, however we wanted to put it. And you saw Democrats and Republicans working together. And so I believe that we just all have to do a better job of rooting.

it out. We all have to do a better job of centering our Jewish brothers and sisters. I believe that there are only two people of Jewish heritage that are elected in the Republican Party in the United States Congress. I believe there can be more. I know that we have 20 plus in the Democratic Party. I know that there can be more. Chuck Schumer leads our party. He's Jewish. And so I just don't like that I don't like the framing of it being just a democratic problem. We have some loud voices who have, I really aid it in disrupting that relationship. And one of the things I've been very proud of is Kamala Harris and Joe Biden standing next to Israel as they should. What do you, what would, how would Vice President Harris do you think handle the Israel-Gaza war?

I mean, you said that Joe Biden's the most Zionist president history. I think there are people that would question as the war is dragged on. And perhaps he has kind of distanced himself a little bit from what Israel is doing. Do you imagine that Kamala Harris would allow Israel to finish the job it's doing, needing to do in Gaza to defeat Hamas? I don't know what finished. I don't know what finished the job means. So I will tell you this.

I will tell you what they've done. And not only I like how we say you question Joe Biden, but then you kind of overlooked the arms deal that just happened. there was a question about whether or not we were going to actually do that. And there should have been no question. I even go back to Barack Obama because this relationship got really sideways with personalities. And there can be an entire book written on Bibi Netanyahu and Barack Obama and their fundamental dislike for each other and how that helped erode the relationship. But I always remind people that you had a $31 billion MOU that was signed under Barack Obama. You got the first F-15s ever delivered to Israel under Barack Obama.

You got an Iron Dome that was created under whom, Barack Obama, right? So there hasn't been that daylight that people like to see. How would Kamala Harris lead on the issue of Israel and Gaza? What I would tell you is that she is a huge advocate for a ceasefire, but she will tell you in the same breath that Israel has a right to defend herself, and she wants those hostages home. I think that everyone can tell you, and I can tell you, my heart breaks because I thought October 7th was one of the worst days I'd ever seen in my life and hearing the story of

sexual violence and hearing the stories that came out of just what those hostages had to go through is just unimaginable. But I also think it's inexcusable to kill food service workers. I think it's inexcusable to actually have a death toll rise of babies and children and innocent women, et cetera. And my argument would be... You said it's not good to kill health. or food service workers, I agree.

I don't think anyone disfrees. Do you think Israel deliberately, I mean? Oh, no, no. I don't, I think, and I think that you should know me well enough from the last seven minutes of conversation to know that that is not where my heart is and that is nowhere near what I was articulating. But what I am saying is that there are costs for a war that continues. And I believe that those costs are becoming too high and we need to figure out a way to end

that war. And I, I am the first person who are recognized. that it's very difficult to negotiate with people who do not fundamentally believe you have a right to exist in Hamas, right? I mean, you need to level set that. But we also can be very critical of Bibi Nanyahu and his role of keeping this going as well. And so I... Just to clarify, do you think the U.S. should be pushing whether Israel doesn't want to ceasefire on the terms that are at the table? Do you think the U.S. should push it to accept? I don't, I, the reason that I can't answer that question with any type of intellect or intelligence is because I just know that.

the discussions in Doha just ended like two hours ago, and I don't know what terms are on the tape. And so I'd be out here speaking about actual innocent lives and war without having, I just don't know where we left. I guess, I guess theoretically, I was like, before me where they are and then let me go from there, because I don't know the answer. But if, but if Hamas, you know, Hamas can have all sorts of terms. It takes two people to agree to terms for a ceasefire. If, if, you know, the framework that we've seen that Israel's willing to agree to is not sufficient to get Hamas to agree, should we force, should we force a change in position on Israel to come closer to Hamas's side to get a ceasefire? I mean, I guess the question is everyone would like the war to end in a ceasefire. Yeah, I don't know the answer to that question.

I mean, the answer, I mean, I don't know, because I don't, I think that both sides are going to, because it's a mediation, it's a negotiation, both sides are going to have. have to come off of whatever their structure may be. And I was very pleased to see, I think a spokesman Kirby was talking about the fact that Israel came with some level of flexibility. And so I can't answer your question because I just think that that would allow me to be too loose with my words. And so I'm just not going to answer that question. But what I would tell you, though, is that I want both parties to work towards ensuring

that the hostages are released and that a ceasefire ends and that we move towards some type a two-state solution. That would be my goal, and I don't know where they are on those conversations in terms to that. What do you think happens next week in Chicago, right, is where the Democratic Party convention is in terms of protests from, let's call it the wing of the Democratic Party that isn't particularly pro-Israel? I don't even know if it's a wing of the Democratic Party. I mean, you keep trying to do that, and I don't think that's necessarily just or right. I mean, I would argue that there are, they started out being 800 uncommitted delegates. They're now less than 200.

And that's far less than the number of people we went to the delegate, to the convention with in 2016 that were Bernie Sanders supporters that didn't support Hillary Clinton. And so I think inside the convention hall will be just fine. Outside, you're going to have your protest. You know, I don't really know what they're protesting. I'm not quite certain. And I fully understand, you know, I would argue that if you were, if you were supportive of a Palestinian cause, you probably needed to protest the RNC in Wisconsin a couple of weeks ago

or someone who, I believe it was Jared Kushner who said that it would make good beachfront property. I just, I am, I'm not certain of the goal. But will it be disruptive? Probably not. Will it be covered intensely? It certainly will. I want to touch in a second on something I know from Twitter that you like, and I'm a big boxing fan myself. Yeah, yeah, I love it. I love it. But before we get there, I do want to ask you to explain a little bit more. You kind of went a little bit viral with your debate with Ben Shapiro on Bill Maher. Yeah. Where you said you believe that the, I guess, life for African Americans in 2024 is no better than life for African Americans. Actually, I was quoting for my book, and I was quoting my father.

actually, who was actually born in 1944, and he believes we're back pre-board versus board of education. And so one of the things that I was attempting to articulate and that I will state again is that no one is talking about, you know, being called n-a-daily basis, which happens a lot. All you got to do is go to like my social media feed or my messages. That's not necessarily the sensationalized ignorant rhetoric that we're referring to. Instead, I'm referring to things like systemic injustices that still plagued communities of color in particular in this country. And so I went to, on that kind of viral clip, I was talking about the fact that black women are still three to four times more likely to die doing childbirth than white women.

And how that is because of the implicit biases in our health care delivery system. And the retort was, are you calling doctors racist? I was like, no, but there are literal journal studies on the fact that black women's pain is not treated the same as their peers. And so they die at a higher rate. And Ben attempted to attribute that to comorbidities. And I was telling him, my wife is, you know, 125 pounds.

And she nearly died during childbirth. Serena Williams is one of the most fit women and greatest athletes of all time. And she nearly died. And so there's... Can I just ask, can I personally? Because I watched that and I wondered,

do you believe that your wife's medical troubles in the hospital delivering was the result of implicit bias? that her doctor had implicit bias? It wasn't her doctors. It wasn't her doctors. In fact, her doctors were three black women, but it was the nurses not necessarily understanding

when she was saying that she was calling out pain and issues. And then I had to be her biggest advocate. My wife was breastfeeding twins at night. And she began to say, she had been arguing and saying that she was having this pain and getting hot. And she just really wasn't, they weren't hearing her. They were like, you'll be fine, you'll be fine, you'll be fine. And then she passed out and threw up and passed that.

out and dropped the twins. We pulled it back. It was blood all on the sheet. She hemorrhage and lost seven units of blood and for the first 36 hours of our kids' life was in ICU. And so the answer to your question is resoundingly yes because of the simple fact that most times in those positions and I will gladly share whatever study you want me to share. Black women in particular when they are articulating their pain usually are not hurt. And that goes into that yet systemic issues or implicit biases. And is it an issue? Yes. Is it something that we have to deal with? root out, the answer is yes, because black women are still dying at higher rates, and it's not due to corn with it. Just, I guess, more broadly to that, if you were right and that, or your father

was right in quoting him, that where we are today is no different than 60 years ago, or 1954 Brown v. Board of Education. That seems like it would be, should be the number one issue in the country. I think a lot of people listening would be skeptical. if things that, not of your story and what occurred to you. And that's just, I mean, I think the skepticism is, is fair, I guess. The questioning is what it is. But, I mean, you know, my, my father was one of the founding members of the student nonviolent coordinating committee, right?

He went to search for the bodies of Goodman Scherner and Cheney in Philadelphia, Mississippi. February 8, 1968, my father was shot along with 27 others and three were killed by South Carolina State Troopers in what's known as the Orange River Massacre when they were protesting segregation in a bowling out. My dad, you know, his first wedding was performed by Dr. King. You know, he was roommates with Stokely Carmichael. And so he remembers in 195 the picture of Emmett Till. He lived through Jimmy Lee Jackson. And so I think people need to do a better job of when people articulate their experience or their pain, hearing them for what that needs, right? And so

when we go out and I talk about where I come from, Jamie, and I talk about the fact that I grew up in a food desert, which means you go less, you know, I can't remember what USDA defines it is now one or two miles and not have access to fresh fruits and vegetables or the hospital closed down. And there's no, in South Carolina, we have 46 counties. And half of them, only half of them have OBGYNs, right? So you're talking about a lack of access to quality care or you're drinking unclean water or your homes are in brownfields. Those are the systems that we're talking about, right? But does that mean that we are going to play victim and cry and and fall down and say,

woe is me. And no, it means that I'm going to work damn hard. And I feel like the blood of my family literally runs through the soil. My grandfather went to World War II. My father was shot, right, so I could be here with you. And now I had these beautiful babies coming home from kindergarten that make sure that I go out and work harder to make sure that tomorrow is better than yesterday. I guess what I was saying is that if you're right, and I'm not taking a side on it,

you, and we are really in the same, maybe in a different way, but the same circumstances of 1954, shouldn't that be the number one issue for Joe Biden and Kamala Harris and Barack Obama before him and almost any politician? I mean, I think we're trying to deconstruct those systems. Yeah, I mean, it is what it is. I mean, but the other thing. You can't imagine. If we had what was going on, you know, it was visible like it was in 1954, I think you would have people saying there should be no other issue anybody talks about than that. And what you're saying in effect is- I respectfully want to help you reframe the way you look at it because I am not talking about the fact that we're drinking out of different water fountain. But I am talking about the fact

that kids, particularly in the South, go to school in what's called a corridor of shame where they're heating and air don't work, where their infrastructure is falling apart, right? Where there's lead in the water, their roots are falling apart. I am talking about the fact that the number one cause for children underperforming in schools in South Carolina is hunger. And the overwhelming majority of the kids that I'm talking about are black children. And so I just, we're not going to have the imagery of Ruby Bridges walking into a school. We won't have Bull Maddox and Leicester Conner.

We won't have the imagery of 1963 on the Edmund Pettus Bridge. You won't see that. But my point to you, Jamie, is just because you don't see that does not mean that these systems are still there. And it also doesn't mean that I'm just simply sitting here saying I'm a victim of anything. What I am saying, though, is that we still have a long way to go before we reach that promised land. We can actually say that we've overcome. But I guess this last point in this and we'll go to the boxing, but I guess you wouldn't you have to kind of edit what you just said there. You have a long way to go, but it sounds like America hasn't gone anywhere. I mean,

once ever said that. Because the problem, the disconnect here is what I'm saying and what you want me to say. And what I am saying is this, though, Jamie. And this is where I wish we could be. And maybe the next conversation we'll get there and we'll do it over tequila. But America has made a ton of progress. And anybody who says that they have not is simply not being honest. The problem, though, is that we still have so far to go. And people like to put a period on progress instead of just simply saying that we have a long way to go in the last four years with the erosion of many of the rights that we fought for of the previous 40 have caused a great deal of consternation and concern for people who live in these disadvantaged communities. And, you know, I'll continue to

fight for them as long as I care. All right. Let's go to a topic that I think there'll be a lot more agreement on or at least probably less heavy than some of the previous topics. And that's boxing, which I know you're a fan of the sport from Twitter. I am a big fan of the sport. I don't know. I'm sure you see there's a major problem with boxing in terms of scoring and sometimes you're finding fighters who shouldn't win that do win. How would you fix the sport? That's the problem. Boxing is fixed, right? It seems like it, right? You see sometimes fights and they seem pretty clear and the other guy wins. I don't, but has it always been, as long as I've been a boxing fan, it seems as this

has always been that way. Like scoring and just putrid scoring has always been kind of baked into the cake. The problem that you and I are going to have now is boxing appears to be getting centralized into the pocket of, you know, one country and one individual who is just that turkey outshank. Yeah, who loves boxing. And so I'm afraid he'll start dictating outcomes. And what I don't want boxing to be is one that you, you, UFC and I don't want to become WWE. You think he might start telling this guy has to win and this guy has to lose? To create larger megapights, why would he not?

I mean, I don't, I mean, there's a lot of money at stake here. And if somebody was like, you know, here, I'll give you an extra $20 million, you know, it is what it is. You know, I don't know. But that, but when it's, when it's that decentralized under one individual, it just, it scares me. Let me ask you just a few kind of current and historical fight questions. would Floyd Mayweather have beaten a prime Manny Packout if they were both fought in their primes?

No, he wouldn't beat a prime Manny Pack, yeah. And I also argue that the best non-heavyweight fighter we've ever seen was a prime Roy Jones Jr. So I have a Roy Jones question for you. So who is better on the all-time list? I think this is an interesting question. Roy Jones, Jr., who beat Bernard Hopkins in their prime, they fought later. But Roy Jones Jr., who beat Bernard Hopkins as prime, or Bernard Hopkins, because the longevity of his career was impressive.

Roy Jones. And then you look at the head-to-head matchup has to have some value, but Roy Jones was special. Roy Jones went up to heavy weight and beat John Ruiz. But that was the problem because when he went up to heavy weight to beat John Ruiz, like that gaining weight and then that losing weight again, just got him destroyed by Antonio Tarver. My heart broke.

I almost cried that night when, because, you know, Roya was my guy. I think he's one of the, I think he's on the kind of maybe right outside of the Mount Rushmore, but he's definitely one of the greatest pound-for-pound fighters is of all time. Speaking of heavyweight pound for pound fighters, who wins in the rematch Fury or Usik? Just a better fighter, better puncher. I think Fury is kind of over it now. I think Yusick is the king of the division. And then you just saw the up and coming, what's my guy's name?

He just got knocked out two weeks ago. Yeah, it was Crawford. Crawford was the main event. That's right. That's right. And he got knocked out in the two fights before. Ruiz lost that fight. And I don't know how he came out to be a split decision or draw. Excuse me. Yeah. And you're not an MMA fan? No, not anymore. I mean, my favorite, my favorites of all kind of, it's kind of like in wrestling when the Ultimate Warrior and Steam kind of became decrepit. You didn't follow it. I was a big Connor McGregor fan, and I didn't think anybody would beat Anderson Silva. There's no one person in the history of, well, I was about to lie. There's only one person in the history of American sports who's been a better athlete on cocaine than John Jones. John Jones is one of the best

cooked up athletes you'll ever see in your life. The only person who's actually played better on cocaine in a sport than John Jones is Lawrence Taylor. That's the only person. They're going to say Darry strawberries. I think John, a dairy strawberry.

That good and great. But I think that I do believe that John Jones will probably go down as the greatest MMA fighter of all time, right? I mean, that's, that's, Dana White's been saying that at nauseam and making the same argument that you have is that not only was he the greatest,

he was the greatest. And when you take into account what he was doing the night before the fights or a couple nights before the fights, like it puts him in a different league. But Bacari Sellers, thank you for joining the dispatch podcast. Man, I love it, man. I love the discourse. I love how you can, you know, ask good questions and have the pushing full of dialogue. And then if you call me tomorrow and say, let's go to Albeck Steakhouse, then I'll go with a blooming onion on you.

Sounds good. Thank you again. You know,