The Dispatch Podcast - Children, Classrooms, and Coronavirus

Episode Date: February 12, 2021

President Joe Biden has recently drawn ire from GOP lawmakers for lagging behind his stated goal of getting K-12 children back into the classroom for in-person instruction. Liesl Hickey, a partner at Ascent Media and co-founder of N2 America, joins the show to chat with Sarah and Steve about teachers unions, remote learning’s effect on student well-being, and whether the NRSC will play a bigger role in GOP primaries during the next election cycle. Show Notes: -“Remote learning failed my third-grader miserably. I pulled her out of public school.” by Liesl Hickey in USA Today. -“Surge of Student Suicides Pushes Las Vegas Schools to Reopen” by Erica L. Green in The New York Times. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Welcome back to the dispatch podcast. I'm your host, Sarah Isker, joined by Steve Hayes. And today we have guest, Liesel Hickey. Liesel and I go way, way back to my Republican National Committee days. She was the executive director of the National Republican Congressional Committee. This is the arm of the Republican Party that focuses on those congressional seats around the country. They did quite well in 2020 picking up seats despite everyone thinking, that they wouldn't. But now, Liesel is the founder of an organization called Into

America that is focusing specifically on what is happening in the public schools right now and the school closures that continue across the country. She has an op-ed in USA Today entitled, Remote Learning failed my third grader miserably. I pulled her out

of public school. By ignoring the science and resisting going back to the classroom, teachers unions have lost the goodwill of parents like me. So, we'll be talking today a lot about school closures across the country and the political consequences of that for 2021, 2021, and down the road. Let's dive in. Leisle, thrilled to have you, of course. You recently published an op-ed in USA Today that I want to hear about what prompted you to do that. And also today is the day

that the Biden administration will roll out their CDC guidelines. So we have a lot to get to. Let's start with the op-ed. Tell us a little bit about what you were saying and why you were saying it. Yeah, well, thanks for having me. Great to be with you guys. Well, the op-ed, I mean, I think it came out of frustration, honestly. I think like millions of parents and families across the country who've been dealing with school closures. I don't think my story was unique in any way. I had a child who was really struggling and needed a way out. And we went through the fall, just watching her just get to a very bad place, honestly,

academically, socially, emotionally. And like I said, I think there are millions of kids who are experiencing this across the country and lots of parents who are experiencing it. And so it just, it was a personal story that I wanted to share. share because I think a lot of people are going through it too. And when you look now at what are expected to be the CDC guidelines, which includes some K through 8th opening, not a whole lot for high schools, and then mixed, you know, some schools will open more days a week than others. They're going to encourage social distancing, ventilation, but

these look like they're going to be pretty, I don't know what else to say. flimsy guidelines, sort of easy for a school district to say they either do or don't meet them, they either will or won't reopen. Would you consider putting your third grader, or now fourth grader, back in school in the fall? Or do you think this is a permanent decision? And how would you suggest other parents think about these CDC guidelines? Well, I mean, I guess we'll have to wait and see, because like you said, it's pretty flimsy. And I do think the Biden administration, they sort of have a pre-vaccine school plan for a post-vaccine world that we're now in. And, you know, that if we're going to follow the science and we're going to follow the data

like they've talked about over and over, I think it's pretty clear that it's safe for kids to be back in school. I think the guidelines that they're putting out are, I think some are pretty nonsensical, and I think a lot of parents are going to see through those. And I think parents are ready for kids to be back five days a week in classes with teachers. And there are lots of school districts across the country that are already doing this and they're doing it safely. And so it doesn't make, there's not, you know, it doesn't make a lot of sense for, for others to not be able to achieve the same thing. Steve. So my first question I think has to do with the teachers themselves, setting aside the teachers unions that I think have been bad actors in this sort of

from the beginning, making arguments that make it seem like they don't want their teachers to be teaching. Setting that aside, what would you say to a teacher who has vulnerabilities probably even with the data that we have on transmission rates and child's adult transmission probably shouldn't be putting him or herself in a place to be exposed. How do you make, how does the policy make accommodations for that kind of a teacher? Yeah, I mean, I think the thing that that I saw in my own public schools was that there was just a real lack of creativity and a lack of will because there are different situations. And obviously, nobody wants teachers who, you know, could be compromised to be,

back in the classroom and feel like their life could be at risk. I mean, I'm very pro-teacher. I think most parents are very pro-teacher. We love our teachers. I mean, they're doing a great service to our children. And so I think there needs to be creativity. And in the independent schools that my kids are currently in, there are some teachers that are not back in the classroom. They are operating via Zoom. But there are a lot of teachers who can be in the classroom who want to be in the classroom. I mean, even, you know, many teachers I know and many that were teaching my kids in the public school, they don't like being on. Zoom all day. Being on Zoom six hours a day, I mean, they know that they're not, you know,

able to serve the kids like they could if they were in the classroom. So I think the problem has been, there's just been this one-size-fits-all approach in many public schools, public school districts. There has not been creativity. There has not been a will. And I think there's just been a constant moving of the goalposts. And parents are fed up. They're really, really fed up. I mean, most, there are many kids, kids in Virginia who have not been in school for over 300 days. I mean, that is just totally unacceptable. Speaking of Virginia, your organization into has done some data work in Virginia. What have you found? Yeah, our organization Into America, which is a center right policy, advocacy organization.

We just came out of the field in mid-January with a online focus group with parents whose kids are in public schools. And I'll tell you, I mean, it was just like, I mean, it was just like, I mean, it was overwhelming. One, it was kind of like a therapy group for me because I understood what they had been going through. I mean, they were frustrated. They were stressed out. They're having, you know, hard time supporting their kids. I mean, they felt like how I felt for a really long time. And they're just, they're just done. They want their kids back in school. They think it can be done safely. They see their kids struggling, really struggling. I mean, I've got a couple of quotes. There was a Chesapeake dad. I'll share this quote from him. He said,

My kids are straight-A students and all are now struggling to keep B grades or doing less. They're not motivated and they're depressed. A lot of parents talked about their kids' social, emotional health. They talked about them seeming very unhappy. I mean, we've seen suicide and depression rates, you know, going up across the country. And, you know, it wasn't just the academics. I mean, they were really worried about their overall well-being. Is there national data on the well-being of kids that you have encountered that supports

what you're seeing in the focus groups? Yeah, there is national data. Actually, there was a really good New York Times story several weeks ago that focused on Clark County, Nevada, where the schools decided to have a reopening process because they had so, you know, they had seen such a spike in mental health issues with kids, especially in high school and middle school. I don't have the exact figures, but there has been a lot of national data

to show that obesity rates are on the rise. And mental health problems are on the rise. And also, many kids are getting their only meal at school. So kids are missing out on nutrition and missing out on just basic services. What happens if schools, you know, snap their fingers, and all the schools are reopened for the fall. Let's say that that occurs. We've had now, it'll be a year and a half at that point, of a lot of parents, mothers in particular,

have to leave the workforce because their kids had to be at home, and they didn't have what used to be sort of a daycare situation for their kids of whatever age. Second, we have a lot of parents of means who were able to take their kids out of public schools that were closed and move them to private parochial schools, what does the education system in this country look like when things, you know, do get back to normal, which may not be this fall, probably won't be this fall. But whenever that is, what are the solutions that you guys think of, both in terms of the economic cost of having the schools closed that have been spread out disproportionately across the economy, again, particularly on women. And then schools, do public schools ever recover

these students? Do you put your child back in public schools? I mean, we've had hundreds of thousands of students leave the public school system. Yeah, I mean, I think those are all really good questions. I mean, as you mentioned, there is a, I think people are calling it a she session where there have been, you know, millions of women who have been forced to to leave the workforce because they've had to come home and be at home with their kids and really support them. I will say, and I've gotten a lot of negative comments from my article basically telling me I'm a terrible mother because I wasn't helping my child enough. But like, I'm also working, working parents.

So I'm on Zoom calls all day. So I can't, you know, I can't be a full-time teacher. Actually, it wouldn't even be a good full-time teacher. But I couldn't be a full-time teacher, even if, you know, even if that was possible. And the presumption, by the way, that that would fall to you, that you're the bad parent because you are working, again, is just, it's something we've seen across the economy. And it is why so many women are the ones who are being asked to stay home and be teachers, something they have no training for. And, you know, some of us aren't particularly rigged to be teachers. God bless those that are. Yes, I know. Actually, many times when I was helping my daughter, I think it was not helping. But yeah, I mean, you know, there's just so many costs associated with the schools being closed. I mean, obviously you've hit on many.

But, you know, if the schools are back, let's say they are open, full time in the fall, the repercussions of them being closed for an entire year are real. And I personally, I did not think my daughter was going to be ready to go on to fourth grade. I did not think she was going to have the skills that she was not going to have met the benchmarks to be able to go on to fourth grade. And we work a lot, you know, with her. But I didn't think she's going to be ready. And there are going to be millions and millions of kids who are not going to be ready to go on.

And then there are all the economic impacts and everything else. And I think it obviously will increase the achievement gap that is already, you know, fairly large in many places across the country. So it's, I mean, I'm sad thinking about all the, you know, all the problems that are going to come out of this. But I do think there are going to be a lot of them. What's your sense, on the same point, same basic point, what's your sense of what the schools themselves have done to prepare for reopening? You know, I've heard stories of schools that rather than use this past year, 300 days, to prepare and to change filtration systems and to find ways to create socially distanced classrooms.

basically just sat on their hands, haven't done anything. And now they're asking teachers to go back and teachers are saying, I would be willing to go back if all of these precautions were in place that give us the low transmission data. But in the absence of all these precautions, that's what makes me reluctant. Do you have any sense of what schools themselves have been doing? I mean, it's a hard question to answer because, of course,

it varies from location to location. Is that a widespread concern that schools haven't been taken advantage? of the time they've had? I think a lot of schools have not taken advantage of the time they had. And actually, I was fairly shocked. I would have thought when the closures had happened over the spring, which many parents were on board with. I mean, the coronavirus novel, we didn't know a lot about it. We didn't understand how it spread. But I would have thought that they would have used a lot of time throughout the summer to try to come up with solid reopening plans. And there were many places is going into the later summer and early fall

where the transmission rates and communities were very, very low, not everywhere, but in many places. And once again, I think it was just like a lack of will, a lack of creativity. And I do think, and we talked to you, you hit on this a few minutes ago, Steve, with the unions, I mean, they bear a lot of the blame here. I mean, they really do.

And I will say from our Virginia research, a lot of parents that we talked to, and we asked them about this. Like, who do they blame for the schools not being open? And they place a lot of blame on the unions. And many of them had even said, I didn't really pay attention to my unions before. I never really thought about this. But now I see them as a real obstacle for why my child is not back in school.

And now I'm paying attention. And I'm mad. And they have seen them once again, move the goalpost, say they're going to, you know, when a school district says, okay, we're going up back. We've seen this in Chicago in other places. Then the unions say, we won't be back in school. We're going to have a teacher strike. And the parents are just getting, I mean, they are really maxed out.

They are really sick of this. And I think the unions and the politicians that are tied to the unions will end up paying a price. So that was my next question. You and I know each other from when you were the executive director of the National Republican Congressional Committee. There is probably no better expert to talk to about the political ramifications of this because a lot of them, I think, will be felt at that more local congressional district level. We see some groups, political organizations already starting to. to run political ads against Democrats in their district ahead of 2022 on this issue.

On the other hand, we have a whole lot else going on in the world right now that could overwhelm this as a political issue for 2022. Where do you see the politics falling? And if you were advising Democrats who have, you know, a Democratic candidate who has taken money from the teachers union, but is equally frustrated that their public schools aren't open. I mean, often their parents, too, with kids at home. How would you advise them to weather this and to make this work for them in 2022? Yeah, well, I don't want to make a lot of predictions at 2022, and usually my predictions

are wrong. It feels like 100 years away. But I do think that, especially I think we will see this be a big issue in 2021 in Virginia and New Jersey and some of these other off-year races. So it'll be interesting to see how this, that plays out. But like I said, I don't think even if schools get back and they're reopened, I think the repercussions of them being closed for so long or going to still be with us and will be real for lots of parents, lots of communities, lots of kids. And so I think that it will continue to be an issue. I do think, I mean, the Biden plan, the one day a week, I mean, it's just an absolute job. I mean, it really was just such a joke.

And if anybody thinks that parents are going to be on board with that, I mean, I just think that's absolutely crazy. And you've seen the White House try to walk that back because I think they knew. So, I mean, if I'm a Democrat, I'd say one day a week, you know, most parents aren't going to be there. I don't want to spend a lot of time advising Democrats how to get smart on their messaging. But I think it's going to be a real problem for them. They're going to have to answer a lot of questions about it.

is the answer, I mean, the presumption, the speculation has been that the Biden administration has stumbled on this precisely because they're listening too much to the teachers unions. They're in bed with the teachers unions. We've seen this sort of everywhere on the center right, and there's been some reporting on it in the mainstream press. Is that your assumption as well? Well, I mean, it has to be my assumption because they're scientific, you know, they're experts from Dr. Fauci to the new CDC director to everybody else's schools can reopen. So what's the obstacle to reopening? The obstacle is the teacher's union.

And as I see it, I don't see any other obstacle. Parents want, lots of teachers want. So it's the unions that are, I think, really keeping kids out of school. And, you know, going back in April, after being out of school an entire year, like, that is just not the answer for many, parents? Will teachers unions lose credibility after this with politicians? Or do you think that the force that they've had will continue? Because I think what's interesting is that, as you said, so many of these parents hadn't given much thought to teachers unions. And in a lot of ways,

the difference between public schools and private schools and charter schools, you know, you spent a lot of time on it for your own kid, but from sort of a national standpoint, there were pluses and minuses and drawbacks and, you know, and all sorts of factors that were impossible to really look at broadly across all those schools. What I think has been fascinating in the last year, tragic and fascinating, is that almost all the private schools are open. Half of the public schools are closed entirely. And it makes no difference what community they're in, by which I mean, it doesn't matter if they're in a high COVID place or a high spreading place. And so you really can compare across areas where the private schools have taken the precautions

they need. We haven't seen any super spreader events at any school. And yet the public schools remain closed. I wonder what costs that will be for teachers unions. And I wonder what they're thinking about it. Well, I think that they've been exposed. And back to your points here, lots of people and lots of parents, I don't think we're paying a lot of attention to them. And now I think they have been exposed. And I think that will create long-term problems for them in other areas, not just the school closures, but now thinking about, you know, other things that parents are, I mean, the light's kind of been shown on them now. And I think they're going to have to answer more questions about lots of other issues, even when we get past, get past a pandemic,

make it past the schools being closed. Can I, does it give you any pause as you make your case that there are, I mean, that this is still a virus that we don't know a ton about, I mean, we know a lot more than we did a year ago, but there's still a lot that we don't know and that there are incidents you're seeing reporting on spikes of kids with the virus in places like Israel, in. Italy with the different strains. One, one village in Italy apparently had something like 60% of the cases were kids from kindergarten and school, and they think it's the South African variety. How do you, if you go back to school, how do you make sure that the schools

themselves, the school systems are nimble enough to respond to if that happens? Yeah, no, I think that, I mean, you're right. I mean, there's still a lot that we don't know and there are obviously new variants that are that are that are not becoming more prevalent in places so but I think as we have seen with proper with proper masking my kids wear masks all day at school proper masking proper distancing and the hand washing and taking all the precautions that you can you know I think they can be as safe as possible I mean I'm not a medical expert but I read a lot of comments from them and and they say that they do not see transmission at schools if you take the proper precautions.

My kids are very used to wearing a mask at school all day. They don't care. They'd rather be at school wearing their mask all day than not wearing it. And the kids wear them and they wear them properly. And I think if you take the right precautions, and the schools have been given a lot of money, which, by the way, has not been spent to make sure that they can have a lot of these protocols in place, that they can up their ventilation systems.

and they haven't spent them money. I mean, they've spent barely any of it. Not long ago, I saw someone go through a sudden loss, and it was a stark reminder of how quickly life can change and why protecting the people you love is so important. Knowing you can take steps to help protect your loved ones and give them that extra layer of security brings real peace of mind. The truth is, the consequences of not having life insurance, can be serious.

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Get your free quote at ethos.com slash dispatch. That's E-T-H-O-S dot com slash dispatch. Application times may vary, rates may vary. Well, let's switch to the Republican side now. You talked about the Virginia governor's race. Terry McAuliffe is seen as the leading contender to be governor again in Virginia. Governor, of course, Virginia has a one-term limit for a governor. so they can serve four years and you've got to go away for four years, but then you can come back.

A lot, you know, when set aside this issue even, Republican parties across the country have been seen as closely tied to Donald Trump or moving further to their sort of right flanks. Virginia one is no exception. They have decided not to have a primary and to have a convention, something that is often seen as sort of catering more to right-leaning candidates or Trump-leaning candidates. Terry McAuliffe, endorsed by the teachers union, has raised just, I mean, gobs of money heading into this 2021 race. A, do you think that Republicans are sort of organized well enough,

in Virginia or anywhere else, to have good showings in 2021 or 22? Second, what do you think their message needs to be overall? Not just on this. And third, assume that a Terry McAuliffe does win in Virginia, which certainly looks like the most likely outcome where we're sitting right now. Doesn't that send the opposite message about whether teachers unions did the right thing or the wrong thing and whether schools really need to reopen if a sort of well-known Democrat with a lot of money and a lot of teachers backing in Virginia, a state with the 10th largest school district in Fairfax County, which has remained closed for 300 days and he wins. Right. Well, I mean, to your first question, I think we've got a real chance in Virginia. And I think we've got a real chance in the midterms, too. We did a ton of research last cycle with suburban voters all across the country and battleground counties. And what we saw was, and the elections, you know, I mean, they showed this that suburban people parent, I mean, suburban voters were just absolutely tired of Trump, his personality. They didn't like anything about it.

And they weren't voting for them. And they didn't. But House Republicans, congressional Republicans, got really, you know, darn close to the majority. And, you know, down ballot races from, you know, state house, state Senate, and others, I mean, they picked up tons of seats. And it was because, once again, these voters are center-right voters. They didn't like Trump. They didn't like his personality. They didn't think it was presidential. I mean, you all know all this. But when you got into the policies, which they started doing, and they're very sophisticated voters, and they're very pragmatic. They thought, I don't like those policies. They didn't mind Biden and Democrats were smart to obviously nominate him because in their mind, he was more moderate of the choice. But when you looked into the policies, they don't like the far-the-far-left progressive policies. And they're very worried about taxes, very, very worried.

And I think, you know, when I bucket these voters, I mean, that's kind of like three E's that they care most about. It's economy, it's energy, and it's education. And on those three things, I would say right now, the Biden administration is, you know, is not doing great. And so I think we have a great opportunity as Republicans to go on offense. If we can avoid the continuing internal battles that we've been having over the last several weeks and get on offense, right now, President Biden's numbers are, you know, I mean, I think we have to be honest as Republicans with ourselves. I mean, they're pretty good and they're pretty good because we're not talking about his policies at all. And we're not creating that choice.

And the minute that we do, and you start engaging voters there, you know, I'm optimistic about being able to win a lot of the key voters back that you talked about that you have to win to win a state like Virginia. They have to win a state like Arizona or, you know, others that have, you know, been turning Georgia, others that have been turning, you know, more blue during the Trump presidency. say? What's the, what's the right way for Republicans to handle somebody like a Marjorie Taylor Green who's going to be featured in media profiles again and again and again? She's going to continue to say things that drive attention to her. And we've already heard from Democrats that

they are going to try to hang her and the, the kinds of conspiracies that she embraces around Republicans next. Yeah. Well, I mean, the Democrats are obviously going to do that. I mean, they want to make her the face of the party. And I imagine they will spend a lot of time and money trying to do that. I think the response from Senate Republicans and many House Republicans to say, this is not who we are. We're not the party of conspiracy theorism. We're not the party of Q&ON. And we need to continue. And I think lots of Republicans will keep doing that. I also think we're going to have to get really serious about playing in primaries and making sure that we get. Republicans through primaries who have a different opinion than somebody like Marjorie Taylor Green. And that's going to be really important. And I know there are a lot of people who are focused on this. And I think as things continue to unfold over the next year and we get more separation from the Trump administration, I'm hoping that will be easier than hard. What can the NRCC do, you know, the Republican arm that does congressional races that you used to run?

What can it do in primaries that it didn't do last time to prevent a Lauren Bobert or a Marjorie Taylor Green from winning those primaries in districts that are so heavily Republican that they're basically guaranteed a ticket into Congress? I think the thing that they, you know, they've done in the past and that they'll continue to do is recruitment. and finding the best candidates who can... But clearly, that didn't work last time. So what should they do differently? Well, I think they're going to be... You know, the NRC has never had a policy of playing in primaries. I don't know if that will change.

They really have saved all their funds to go win tough general election so that they, you know, with their goal of getting the majority. Marjorie Taylor Green was in a very safe Republican district. So in terms of adding to numbers to get them to the majority, her district didn't matter too much. But I think that more and more people are going to be focused through outside efforts or others to be focused on these primaries, to play in these primaries, to make sure that those candidates are well-funded and so that we can have more governing, I guess, style Republicans, you know, who are going to win those,

especially in very conservative districts. Yeah, I mean, I think that's the challenge now, right? I mean, that has historically not been what Republicans have wanted to do, right? not play in primaries, not get involved, sort of let the candidates duke it out and then jump on whichever Republican wins for the general. And now, I think, with so many of these fights taking place, I mean, the more serious fights about who's going to actually end up serving, taking place in primaries, both on the Democrat and the Republican side, but I would say in particular on the Republican side, it's almost as if there's no choice. How does that work

in Congress. I mean, how does somebody who's running the NRC think about that? I mean, I don't want to speak for who's running the NRC, but when I was there, I, you know, I think

we thought a lot about it. And we, you know, it doesn't matter if it's a primary or somebody who's in a total battleground seat. I mean, our focus was always to find the best candidates, the best candidates who we're going to win, but the best candidates who are going to serve.

And I think this past cycle, they had amazing candidates. And the one thing they really focused on, they focused on women, which is really important to me. And I worked on that a lot while I was there. They focused on minority candidates. They focused on veterans. And I think they're going to continue to do that. And I think that will play into this, you know, to this as well.

For those listening who are like, aha, primaries, that's a good point. how do they go support folks? How do they find out who's running in the primary? How do they go support folks in the primary that they want to? What's your advice to someone who doesn't work at the NRCC? Isn't a political operative? But they care deeply about the future of their Republican Party and they want at least a Republican Party.

You know, I've been using this quite a bit. But we have freshman members who aren't hiring legislative staff. They're only hiring comm staff because they think that the purpose of being Congress, and they might not be wrong at this point, is to sit on cable news and get attention of any kind, negative or positive, because that ups their name ID, which helps them raise money, and it's a vicious, if, upward trajectory and cycle. So let's assume that you want the future of the Republican Party or the Democratic Party to be one that governs. What's your advice

to someone listening like that? Yeah. I think America wants Congress that governs. I mean, you see that over and over. They want Congress that solves problems. But I mean, there are a lot of groups out there that are, that we're going to be promoting candidates, I imagine, in primaries. Honestly, Steve mentioned, I mean, there's a big problem on the Democratic side with this too. I mean, the Justice Democrats and other of the far-left groups, they're trying to do the same thing that some folks on the far right are doing. But I think there will be a lot of communication from many groups where people can find out about candidates who they could support in primaries. Obviously, we're also going into a redistricting year. So the lines, we won't know a lot

about the lines for a while. But I think as we get into next year, there will be a lot of clear choices in primaries that people are going to know about. All right. Last question. I hope it's an easy one. It's very difficult. It's very difficult. It's very. difficult. As your kids were at home for some time after the initial COVID shutdowns, what was the school cafeteria food that they missed the most? Yeah. You know what? For a period of time, I was glad we did not have to pack lunches because for me, that is just always very stressful packing kids lunches. But then our house became this like revolving cafeteria people eating at all different hours and my high schooler come down at 10 and be like, what's for breakfast? I was like,

well, that was two hours ago. So I felt like what I felt like that I was just unloading and reloading the dishwasher nonstop. I'm sure you all can sympathize with that. Correct. All right. Thank you so much for joining us. Leesel Hickey, we will look forward to seeing more from Into America. Thanks. Thanks for having me. With Amnizabeth, access to exclusive Amex pre-sale tickets can score you a spot trackside. So being a fan for life turns into the trip of a lifetime. That's the powerful backing of Amex.

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