The Dispatch Podcast - Columbia Professor: Terrorism Is The Point | Interview: Shai Davidai

Episode Date: April 24, 2024

Adaam is joined by Shai Davidai, an Israeli-born assistant professor at Columbia University, to discuss a viral moment in which he was denied entry to Columbia’s campus and how the university’s administration is failing to protect Jewish students. The Agenda: —Shai Davidai’s background, from Israel to Columbia —The antisemitism he was warned about —Dialogue with protesters —The administrative involvement in the protests —Play-by-play of Davidai's experience on Columbia's campus —Are Jewish students safe on college campuses? Show Notes: —Davidai's "Rape is never ok" tweet —Petition calls for Davidai's termination —Davidai's appearance on 60 Minutes —Rep. Ilhan Omar questions Columbia University president —Former Iranian President Ahmadinejad's appearance at Columbia —Time to Condemn's website —Resistance 101 event at Columbia —Joseph Borgen, Jewish man assaulted in 2021 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Welcome to the Dispatch podcast. This is Adam. We've been talking about the mayhem at Columbia University and otherwise as the anti-Israel protests have evolved into illegal encampments. And there's been much discussion about whether this is creating a threatening environment for Jews and certainly Israelis on campus. And what should the administrators do? So I decided to talk to Israeli-born professor, assistant professor of management at the Columbia Business School, Shai Davidae, who has been outspoken about the growing anti-Semitism, as he views it on American campuses, specifically the Columbia campus ever since October 7th. Hi, Shai, thank you for joining me. Thank you for having me. Many people probably have seen people who have been following the events on campuses since October 7th, probably have seen your face show up on... Unfortunately, reluctantly so, yeah. On social media.

But in case they haven't, I want you to tell us the story of how you became associated with what's going on right now. But start from your days in Israel. Give us a bit of context of who you are, how you got here, and how you became one of the faces of the political bustle. Yeah. Well, first of all, I would say it's not political. It's not ideological. It's about democracy.

It's about civil rights. It happens to be right now at this very moment about anti-Semitism and support for terrorism. But it all goes, it all boils down to, you know, how do we want the U.S. educational system to be? Do we want it to be dogmatic? Do we want it to be indoctrinating to a certain point of view? Which right now, the point of view is motivated by hatred

and not just hatred towards Jews and Israel, but hatred towards America and American values. Or do we want it to be in open space where we can criticize each other, have conversation, and cultivate critical thinking? Not just with the students, but with the faculty who have stopped engaging critical thinking. I grew up, I was born and raised in Israel. I've been a few years where I lived in Eastern Europe as a child. I spent all my childhood days in Israel, went to undergrad in the Hebrew University of Jerusalem. in 2000 like me yeah and in 2010 my girlfriend at the time now my wife and I we we moved to the

US so I went to Cornell to get a PhD in social psychology and she went to Columbia for two years in the program of Master of Fine Arts she's a writer and a translator of Hebrew fiction into English. And so we've been living here for 14 years after I graduated from Cornell. I spent a year as a postdoc at Princeton at the School of International and Public Affairs. I spent three years as an assistant professor of psychology at the New School for Social Research. And in 2019, I joined Columbia Business School. And politically, what were your affiliations? What was the extent to which you were involved with Israeli politics back, back home? So I have no affiliations. I've never had affiliations. I have values and I have views.

And I've always on the Israeli political map, I've always aligned, my values have always aligned with the Zionistic left. So the party, when the last time I voted, which has been a long time because I've been living here was for merits that that's that's not to say that I'm right now that's for listeners who are not familiar with Israeli politics is considered on the maybe not the farthest left but but certainly not center left yeah it's it I would say that merits is the farthest left that still believes in Israel's right to exist as a homeland for the Jewish people. You can go farther left than that.

We have some parties because it's a democracy. But farther than that is parties that say we don't believe that Israel has a right to be the Jewish homeland. Maybe I should even pause on the word Zionism because this is going to come into play soon. How do you understand the word Zionism today? Yeah. So it's funny because a lot of people ask me that question. And it's not about understanding. It's about what is the definition of Zionism.

And I think, you know, the definition of Zionism is the Jewish people's right for self-determination. That's how it started, 1896, in the first World Zionist organization, Congress. And it started because Theodore Herschel and his contemporaries saw that no matter how much we try to assimilate, anti-Semitism will always raise up its ugly head and the only way to save the Jews

or some of the Jews is to have a place where they can self-determinate their own fate where they can have their own state right now it has evolved into you know

it's basically the same thing but it says Zionism is the belief that Israel still has a right to exist right? And the right to exist is the right to defend yourself. It doesn't mean that you defend yourself at all costs necessary, but it means that you have a right to defend yourself, just like any individual on the street has a right to defend themselves. It means that that the need for a Jewish homeland is as critical as ever. And so to ensure that just people understand what your position was back in Israel, that's called pre-October 7th, when you say

that you were part of the Zionist left, that means usually that you'd buy into the notion of Israel as a pluralistic state. Israel as liberal democracy with equal rights to its citizens, with no political priority based on ethnic or religious affiliation and for some addressing of what you would have considered the Israeli occupation of territories in the West Bank and the relationship with the Palestinians. I'm making all this assumption.

Yeah, so I think, so the one thing that I would say is my views haven't changed since October 7th, because my values haven't changed. Everything you just said is right, is what I stand for, what I believe a lot of the Zionistic liberal left stand for. Do we achieve all of that? Not yet. That's what we aspire for.

So over the summer, past last summer when I was in Israel, I was very, very involved in the pro-democracy rallies because those were the rallies against the current Netanyahu government. government's judicial overhaul. Exactly. The dispatch listeners, we had a conversation with Chavid Ben-Gur about the details of that reform and how it divided Israel. And a lot of the thrust of that movement

was to preserve Israel's liberal democratic values against what was seen as a power grab from the political far right. Right. What I saw and still see, as the danger of democratic backsliding. And I wanted to ensure not just Israel's continued existence as the Jewish homeland, but also continued existence

as the democracy, the only democracy in the Middle East. So I was involved in all those protests. On the eve, when the first law of the judicial reform passed in the Knesset, the parliament, I was part of the big protests in Tel Aviv. I got punched in the face by an undercover cop for for protesting. And the next day I was back there fighting again for democracy. So your first claim to fame in the, at least in the political world, was the guy getting punched in the face in the middle of an anti-government protest in Israel.

Well, I would say my first claim to fame was when, you know, in the junior year of high school or senior year of high school or senior year of high school, I got the president's award for, you know, volunteering for, you know, because I used to be like a youth volunteer and whatever, you know, in the area where I grew up in Kiratano. But yeah, this was the first time where I, yeah, when I, when I took a stand, but I took a stand. I've always been taking stands, but this was its first time, but I took a stand like vocally, powerfully. And I also saw the, the limits. of taking a stance, but sometimes you take a stance and still the world doesn't care.

And then what happens after October 7th here at New York? You were at Columbia, an associate professor. Yeah, so on October 11th, I helped organize with another Israeli professor at the business school. I teach, sorry, I should start by saying that I'm at Columbia Business School. And on October 11th, I organized

with another Israeli professor, at the business school, a, for lack of better words, a grieving session for the Jewish and Israeli students, our MBAs. And we just sat there and talked about our feelings, talked about, you know, some people about family that was butchered, for lack of better words, family members that have been kidnapped. People were shocked, people were crying. It was the first time it I ever cried and found my students. And at some point, one of the students showed me a letter. And it was a letter penned by the organization called Students for Justice in Palestine.

I've come to call them students for jihad in Palestine because there's nothing just about them. And that letter was published in October 9th. And it says, yesterday's events, so it was written on October 8th. And it says yesterday's events, meaning the October 7th massacre, was an historic day for the Palestinian resistance. And it just goes on to glorify Hamas, to excuse Hamas, to say that this is just the beginning. This is before Israel even responded. The Israeli defense forces were still in Israel, fighting back the terrorists who are trying to, slaughter as many Jews they could find. What frustrates me now, there weren't even there weren't any

soldiers in Gaza at that point. No, no. I mean, that that's what frustrates me that, you know, we're trying to spin this as a pro-Palestinian anti-war pro-seas fire movement. It's pro-chamas. They started on October 9th. On October 8th in New York City, we already had protests in support of Hamas. So a student showed me that letter. In that letter, it called for a protest that was going to happen on October 12th. So I went to the protest. And I went to the protest.

A protest in Colombia. Yeah, at Columbia's main campus. And I went to the protest for two reasons, to see it with my own eyes, and to beaver for the Jewish students and protect them if needed. And what I saw was it shook me to the bone, really did. You know, I went back home and I, and I just burst out and I cried. Like, after my kids went to sleep, my wife and I, like, we sat on the couch in our living room and I just started crying. Because I realized that it wasn't political.

It wasn't an disagreement on, you know, Israel's policies. It wasn't a disagreement about what should or shouldn't. be done in Gaza, what should or shouldn't be done with terrorists. It was support for terrorism and deep hatred for the Jews. What made you view it as that? I was standing there seeing a mob of 800, 900 protesters chanting all the chants that we've become accustomed to by now, normalized by now. Globalized the intifada. There's only one solution, intifada revolution. We don't want a true state. We don't want to state. We want all of them. We're living in Tuesday. We don't want a food state. We don't want to state. We don't want to state. We don't want

48. From the rivers to the sea, Palestine will be Arab. People say, oh, we're saying Palestine will be free. No, if you listen to their chant in Arabic, they say Palestine will be Arab. Palestine, Arabia. Palestine Arabia. And I was standing there, looking at all of that, shocked. I think someone took a picture of me. No one knew who I was. I didn't know who I was back then. And you can see the shock in my eyes.

And the other Israeli professor was with me, whose parents are Holocaust survivors, leaned, you know, and leaned towards me and whispered in Hebrew. This is the anti-Semitism that our parents and grandparents warned us about, and we didn't listen to. And that point, I just realized that this is something different. It's the same thing.

When I started seeing people tearing down posters of the hostages, which I had actually a small part in creating. My wife is Nizan Mintz translator, and Nizan is one of the artists that made those posters, and my wife wrote the text to the posters. So seeing in my own campus,

like people tearing down posters of Kfirbibas, the nine-man-fault baby that was kidnapped, or worse, drawing a swastika on his face. I realize this is, this is bigger in politics. This is not, this is about moderates versus extremists. You got extremists on the left, you got extremists on the right. They are motivated by hate, maybe hate for different things, but still hate is hate. And us Jews are the first ones to go, but we're never the last, we're never the only ones to go. So, okay, you come home crying, what do you do about it?

Where do you take it? Do you go to the administration? Do you talk about, do you try to talk to people who are leading the protest and tell them, look, there is a way to criticize Israel. There's a way to talk about what a reasonable response may or may not be, which again, And it's funny to even say that because the response didn't even start yet at that point. But theoretically, there's a way to talk about this that isn't from the river to the sea. Maybe take out the phrase intifada.

Maybe we can you can do without phrases that, you know, even if you want to tell yourself that intifada just means the abstraction of resistance and doesn't carry any violent valence, maybe just acknowledge that for people who have lived through the second intifada and may have had people slaughtered back. in the early 2000s, like I'm sure both of us can think of examples that affected our immediate life. Maybe just out of deference to those people, avoid those phrases and have this kind of dialogue, for you to have this kind of dialogue

with leaders of the protests or the administration to try to bring things to somewhat more passable. Did you make any efforts like that? So first of all, I have to say at first, I gave everyone a pass. And I say at first, I mean, like, for the first two, three weeks. I gave everyone a pass. I thought, look, maybe you don't know what Intifada means.

I'll post it online and I'll tell you. You know, maybe you don't know. After three weeks, four weeks, you know, the entire country knew what from the river to the sea means. You don't get a pass once you keep shouting it. But I mean, to just be, you know, I feel obligated to. to play devil's advocates here because we're both we're both

you know I don't think anybody mistakes at this point but we were both Israeli we were both wearing our little $12 Amazon Magandavid that we bought

immediately after October, oh maybe October 8th and the but if you put yourself in the minds of the majority of protesters you can imagine

a version where a person who may not have heard the phrase from the river to the sea Intifada until October 9th and suddenly is is being told by their immediate allies that no no trust us bro it's good and told by the other side the opponents what they see as the the fascistic right that no no no no you're you're using bigoted language you should we should

shut it down and for them it comes across as you're just trying to shut me up I don't trust you I don't know, I don't know what Indyphida means, but I don't trust your interpretation of it. I completely understand that argument, but I want to take you back a few years to 2020 when the phrase, Black Lives Matter became, you know, a common household phrase. And people started saying, all lives matter. And the first time I heard that phrase, I had, I didn't understand, like, what's the problem with the phrase? All lives do matter. But then the very first moment that someone that I read somewhere or someone explained to me,

I don't even remember how, but the very first moment that I realized that what African Americans hear when you say all lives matter is black lives don't matter. Not only did I stop, you know, thinking what I thought about the phrase all lives matter, I started calling out other people for using this phrase because it's offensive and it's dangerous to African Americans. That's their experience of it. And I'm not going to deny or erase their experience. It shouldn't be different for any other group.

And it doesn't matter of it. I happen to be Jewish. But if I were gay, if I was trans, If I were Muslim, if I was, you know, an immigrant, I am an immigrant. If I'm as an immigrant from Latin America, it shouldn't matter. If a group tells you and it tells you consistently, this is our experience and you keep subjecting them to that experience, then it doesn't matter what your intentions are. And your intention is like, I believe most people started off with good intentions.

Now they're brainwashed, but they started off with good intentions and their lack of care in the best scenario or they hatred towards the Jews in the worst scenario made them keep going. Not long ago, I saw someone go through a sudden loss and it was a stark reminder of how quickly life can change and why protecting the people you love is so important. Knowing you could take steps to help protect your loved ones and give them that extra layer of security, brings real peace of mind. The truth is, the consequences of not having life insurance can be serious. That kind of financial strain on top of everything else is why life insurance indeed matters. Ethos is an online platform that makes getting life insurance fast and easy

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I wrote my first real thing on social media. Just to paint... Just direct them, Michael Lord. Yeah, just to paint the picture. Up until everything started, I had about like 900 followers on Twitter. The last I checked, I have about $78,000. So I was just talking to whoever would listen, right?

And I wrote this post about my experience at Columbia. You didn't do it because you felt you had a huge. platform that you need to take advantage of, you felt you just needed to talk about it. I needed to express myself. And it was very raw and emotional. And I explained exactly what I experienced on campus. And I wrote about me crying and about how I've cried so much with my eyes are dry. And I just posted it. I posted it on Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn. I wasn't even on Instagram, Ben, because I'm a boomer. Uh, and immediately people started sharing this, retweeting it, saying, if you want to

understand what it's like being Jewish in the United States right now, read this. And that was very, that was the first time, but I, it was very weird for me because I was just, I was just talking about myself. I was, I wasn't trying to, I still don't, you know, I wasn't saying like, hey, I'm speaking for a community. I'm just speaking for what I'm experiencing. But the fact that that resonated with people was reassuring. And it started, you know, and people started following more in what I was saying. And I kept, and I started calling out Columbia's administration because I realized the problem is not the pro-Kamas mob.

It's those that allow them to roam free on campus. And we say allow them. The idea for you was that there should be some administrative involvement in determining what is or is a legitimate speech on campus. No. I think that the administration has a responsibility of whether terrorizing other students is acceptable or not. And organized terrorizing other students. But to be clear, that terrorizing at this point, we're not talking about any physical altercations, right? We're talking about just using phrases like intifada, which for us is associated with violence. No, the very first

week, we had a Jewish-Israeli student on campus who was putting up posters for the hostages and he was physically assaulted, had his fingers broken. Luckily, the person was arrested and arraigned. The violence was there from the very first moment. Anyone who tries to paint this otherwise is peddling a different story, you know, or trying to push something. But the facts are there. And it's not just, and again, it's not just about the freedom of speech to say whatever they want. They can say whatever they want, or at least within some boundaries. But these were organizations that are getting money from the university. We're getting a platform from the university. The university is not just saying you can say whatever you want, but we're saying,

hey, at 11 to 1 p.m. will give you a stage and a microphone and will give you some money to say it. That's very different from freedom of speech. It's the same as when Colombia, invited Ahmadinejad to speak on campus. The only place in the United States that Ahmed Dinajad could be when he visited the previous president of Iran, the supreme leader of Iran, I guess. The only place he could have been legally

other than the UN and his hotel was Columbia University. They didn't have to invite him. They rolled out the red carpet for him. That is not freedom of speech. That is taking a stance. I can come up with arguments of why you might,

I remember that discussion about whether Ahmed didn't judge should or shouldn't be, I had to use this hackneyed phrase platformed at Columbia, but we can put that aside for now. The problem of vitriolic protests

is something that is always difficult for an administration to really deal with without creating more vitriol in response, right? I disagree. I disagree. I think that if this was the KKK, if this was the proud boys, if this was some crazy organization that, you know, the West Baptist Church that hates homosexuals, we would have seen very different. The last six months would have played out very, very differently.

The university knows how to deal with hate speech. It knows how to deal with student groups that terrorize other student groups. it knows how to deal and you know how we know because that's what they've done in the past. You know, a few years ago, the chair of the psychiatry department at Columbia, the medical school, posted something on his own social media, posted a racist remark, which, that I find abhorrent, really abhorrent racist remark. Within days or weeks, this person no longer was the chair of the psychiatry department. When Colombia wants to deal with hate, it knows how.

When it doesn't, this is what we see now. And it doesn't because it focuses on one specific group. And we know what that group is now. It's the Jews. So you're starting to call out the administrators. Do you do that only on social media? Do you start having conversations with people in the administration? Do you ever talk to Shafik personally?

She never replied to my emails for six months. I've, yeah, and I've written her dozens of emails. From the start? From the start. The trustees, including the co-chairs where we're in the congressional hearing, David Greenwald, Claire Shipman, none of them has ever, ever reached out to me. I've been the most vocal proponent of Jewish students on campus, and none of the trustees have ever reached out.

The administration has never reached out, and Shafik has never replied to my emails. So it's been like this from the very first moment. But what I started to do is just calling them out because I realized that they won't even use the word Hamas. The first time that President Shafik used the word Hamas was in April 5th. When she realized she has to go and testify in front of Congress

a week and a half from them, she used the word Hamas. Up until April 5th, I was begging for her to even use word Hamas in any official communication and she never because she was pretending she was creating a situation as if Hamas has nothing to do with this she finally bowed down to reality i don't know in april fifth and that's only because she was forced to but for legal reasons but what legal reasons when you go in front of congress well and and you're going to pretend that you care about the jewish students the least you can do is is heed reality and And say that, yes, Hamas is part of this.

But before we even get to her congressional hearing, can you tell me about the back and forth? Because there was a moment when the university, I don't remember if they banned or suspended the student justice for Palestine. Yeah. So there was a response early on. I'll tell you a story, and probably it's the first time I'm telling this on record, a week before that. Can you tell us why that was happening also? Sorry. So on October 17th or 18th, now my time is a bit crazy, October 17th, I spoke up in front of a group of 35 people on campus, calling out the administration at Columbia, but also in other universities for supporting pro-terror student organizations.

these organizations that say that rape is a necessary act of resistance that it's a means to an end and I spoke up and I shouted I shouted I cried my my heart out saying rape is never okay and I said it doesn't matter if you're Jewish or Christian or Muslim or Hindu or Buddhist or an atheist like myself rape is never okay that video went viral you know 15 20 million people saw this by now. And all of a sudden, people started listening. People started paying attention. At first, it was just the Jews. But, you know, more and more non-Jews also just concerned Americans and concerned Europeans and concerned South Americans and concerned Australians started paying attention. And I just kept calling out the university. One, for not using

the word Hamas at all. I started this website called Time to Condem. It took them six months. Two, for allowing these students' organizations to celebrate Hamas. The only time that I had an official meeting with an administrator was late October. I met with senior vice president Jerry Rosberg. I asked him if the president would come. He said that she has other concerns or something like that. And we actually met three blocks up from here. We got coffee at a coffee shop.

He said that he doesn't want to be at a coffee shop because. he's afraid of the rule starts shouting at each other. I said, I'm not planning to shout on you. I'm not planning to raise my voice, you know, but we went, we hung out in the park, and we talked for three hours. Doing those three hours, I asked him if, what would happen if students wanted to organize a demonstration in support of al-Qaeda, calling for not 9-11 to happen again and again and again because it's a justified form of resistance. I asked him, Jerry, are they allowed to do so? And he said, yes, we will let them do so. And I was shocked. And then I asked, Jerry, are you willing to go on

record? And he said no. I wasn't shocked back then when he said that. Because of course, like what any decent human being would go on record. But that's the mentality they brought in. And I just spoke with him for three hours telling him like the concerns of the Jewish students. I explained what Intifada is. I explained what it's like being Israeli on campus at that very moment. And this is like early mid-October. A week or two later, he finally suspends the pro-Khamas student organizations mid-November. Did something prompt that?

Yes. It was on a Wednesday, they made an unauthorized. protest. This has been Burmada's operandi for six months now. They had an unauthorized protest on Wednesday. They got a slap on the wrist from the administration saying like, don't do this again. So on Thursday, they had another one, a bigger one, an unauthorized protest. And the university was like, please don't do this again. And finally on Friday, they came out with a suspension. But they never enforced that suspension. So since mid-November, students for jihad in Palestine, I call them student for jihad in Palestine. Students, because they're not justice. Students for justice in Palestine

have been operating on campus with complete impunity despite being suspended. They are the ones that are organizing the illegal encampment now that are negotiating with the administration so the National Guard doesn't come in. It's just, there's two sets of rules in the university. There's a set of rules for everyone, and then there's another set of rules for the pro-hamas mob. This is why the university is facing a federal investigation. This is why the university is facing two lawsuits. And there are lawsuits about civil rights. We're not lawsuits about, you know, small things.

It's civil rights lawsuits because the university is engaging in selective enforcement. And so I just want to keep track the timeline. So they get the suspension and there was a story that you wanted to say after the suspension happened? There's so many stories I can tell you. I mean, ever since October 12, it's just been a continuous lowering of the bar, right? We always think like, okay, now it's the worst. And I say we, it's like myself and the many other Jewish and Israeli faculty, students, and staff that are working behind the scenes, documenting everything, petitioning the university, writing op-eds, fighting this for six months. And at every point we said like, okay, now it's the worst.

Like when they were chanting deaf to the Zionist state, we said, okay, now things will change. When they started celebrating the chutis, like the tourist organization from Yemen that's backed by Iran and shooting missiles on U.S. ships and has executed homosexuals just for being homosexuals and has institutionalized slavery and where women, cannot leave the house without a mill chaperone when they started supporting them and saying Yemen and make us proud

turn another ship around I was like okay this is it like now the world will wake up now the administration will realize I was wrong then they had an event

called Resistance 101 where we brought in And all this is during the period where they were supposedly suspended? Yes, yes they had an event

called Resistance 101 where they brought in Khaled Barakat and Charlotte Cates and Nadine with, I forget her last name. But I'll explain exactly who these people are. Khaled Barakat is a member of the PFLP, the popular front for the liberation of Palestine, which is a U.S. designated foreign terrorist organization. He's a Canadian citizen. He's a member of the political arm of the PFLP.

And he gave a speech to the students at Columbia, organized by the pro-Hamas mob, referring to people, and it's not a direct quote, so I urge you to go and watch everything because I've documented everything, referring to people in the Hamas, PFLP, and Islamic Jihad as my friends in Gaza. The other person to speak was his wife, Charlotte Keats, who is one of the heads of Sami Dune. Samidun is a political organization that supports PFLP terrorists that are in principle. in Israel for suicide bombings, for killing babies, for raping civilians. She supports them, the Samidun supports them.

And she told the students at Columbia that what Hamas did on October 7th was necessary, that they should be proud to say that they support the armed resistance, and that they should go all out and say that we are Hamas. And then Nardin, I think it's Kiswali, she's the head of Within Our Lifetime. Within Our Lifetime is a, for lack of better words, a domestic terror organization that works in New York City. It used to be called SJP, New York City. And the one thing you should know about within our lifetime is that its members, after a protest in 2021, went hunting for a Jewish man in New York City. They found Joey Borgon in May 2021.

What do you mean when hunting for a Jewish man? They were just looking to pick a fight with the Jew? They weren't looking to pick a fight. They were looking to attack. They went hunting. That's why I said it went hunting for a Jewish man in May 2021. They found Joey Borgon, a Jewish guy who were just riding around on his bicycle in Midtown, and they beat him to a pulp. And some of them are serving.

Visibly Jewish, I assume. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Visibly Jewish. And they beat him to a pulp. And in only recent things, a few of them. were finally imprisoned for they're serving up to seven years in prison because the the lawsuit they found that they were texting each other about let's go attack choose it was this is within our lifetime so this is what the students at Columbia

brought into campus and I thought this is the low bar they actually ended up suspending some of the organizers of that particular event of that particular event they ended up suspending some of the organizers and those organizers that have been suspended. It's been like three weeks or four weeks are right now on campus in the illegal encampment, leading the illegal encampment, leading the negotiations.

They're the ones negotiating with Colombia. And then, you know, a few weeks later, we had Israel faced an unprecedented attack from Iran with missiles where the U.S. was fighting Iran, basically. were helping Israel. Yeah, I was in Jerusalem at the time while the missiles were being intercepted overhead. So while you were in Jerusalem,

you know, seeing Iranian missiles being intercepted, Columbia students on their social media were cheering on Iran. So I thought that is the low bar. Cheering how? Putting the blame on Israel, saying Iran is just doing what needs to be done. What did you mean when you,

you, when we said resistance. What did you mean, what did you mean, what did you think we mean when we say an axis of resistance? And then this past Saturday, and when the illegal encampment, what's happening now, I think it's day eight, this past Saturday, we, things just erupted, erupted on campus, like things that we have been seeing for six months and documenting, just like they're doing it now openly. A protester was holding a sign saying Al-Kasam Brigades, your next target with an arrow pointing at Jewish-American students, not

Jewish-Israeli students, Jewish-American students. Al-Qasan Brigades is the Hamas military wing. We're basically saying Hamas take down these students. They've crossed the line from supporting Hamas to actually telling Hamas who to target.

They are part, ideologically, they are part of Hamas. And we heard all the chance. Again, like, It's now, it's, they have signs on Columbia's campus now, referring to Hamas's rockets in the first person, plural, as our rockets. And I'm just telling you the worst of it, you know, when a professor at the law school, Catherine Frank, said that Israeli students who served in the IDF are at danger, regardless of who they are, regardless of, you know, I served in the IDF. Just the fact that you shaved in the IDF because you're Israeli, because it's mandatory, then you're a danger on campus. That didn't change anything.

When students depicted all Jews as skunks, and we had posters all around campus, that didn't change anything. When Joseph Mossad, a professor in the Middle Eastern department, called October 7th massacre and kidnap and raping and torture awesome on electronic intifada.com and with a big picture of the Hamas terrorists who engaged in the massacre, nothing happened. I can keep going. Dr. Muhammad Abdu, a visiting professor that was hired in January after the massacre and has said multiple times that he not supports Hamas and Hezbollah. He identified with Hamas and Hezbollah and has called people to end the occupation,

not just of Palestine, what he calls it. but also of the United States and calling for a resistance here as well. I thought this is it. Like people will wake up and understand but nothing happens. Right now on Colombia's illegal encampment you have

posters of what they call martyrs. You know, posters with candles of suicide bombers, of people that have the bloods of dozens of civilians, Jewish and non-Jewish Israeli and not Israelis on their hands. And this

This is what Colombia is negotiating with. The only people that are being thrown under the bus are to choose. This episode is brought to you by Squarespace. Squarespace is the platform that helps you create a polished professional home online. Whether you're building a site for your business, you're writing, or a new project, Squarespace brings everything together in one place. With Squarespace's cutting-edge design tools, you can launch a website that looks sharp from day one. Use one of their award-winning templates or try the new Blueprint AI. which tailors a site for you based on your goals and style.

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So let's go back to the administrative response. You're talking about the negotiations. This morning or last night, I think, Columbia, I think an email from President Shafik specifically stated that they are moving towards. the removal of the encampment and that they were planning to reach some kind of negotiated agreement for the dismantling of the encampment by midnight that she she put it as a sharp ultimatum. I think as of this morning, there was no agreement on dismantling. There was maybe some agreement of some scaling back, which sounds more like university capitulation than

So let me tell you. So the story actually starts on Sunday. So I have to I saw what I saw on Saturday evening. And I spent Saturday night, I was up until like 4 a.m., seeing what's happening, texting students, Jewish students, texting different organizations of how do we keep the Jewish students safe? That's what I was, that's still what, that's my main focus. That's the reason for all of this. So I was up all night. I wake up on Sunday.

And on 7 a.m., I wrote the university an email. the president, the senior vice president, the COO, and the general council. And I told them, I intend to go on campus because I'm a professor and to sit peacefully inside this illegal encampment. And I have a right to do so and to do so safely. So I ask you to guarantee my safety. And if that means bringing in the NYPD, then bring in the NYPD because you know I'm not safe. they never responded all Sunday

I sent them a message again midday they never responded then I sent them a message again at night saying listen this is serious I'm a Jewish professor who is barred entry from a specific area on campus because I am not safe there

please do something I show up on Monday morning sorry I get a response at 2 a.m. on the night between Sunday and Monday from the C.O. Cass Holloway and he says hey shy if you want

to counter protest, if you want to stage a counter protest, we can give you this other area on campus. And I replied. I said, I am not staging a counter protest. I'm exercising my right as an employee of the university to be in a public space on campus. Insinuating that being Jewish and public is a protest is highly, highly problematic. I show up on Monday and I try to pass my Columbia ID because the gates are locked because because after was it after was it a Monday or Tuesday when they realized that they're not going to bring down the

encampment and that people were expressing feeling of being unsafe on campus Shafik's response was to cancel in person learning no no so I completely understand your your reason to try to understand, to understand this, to explore this,

to maybe even understand Shafiq and saying like, oh, maybe it's because of this. Look at the evidence. Since October 12th, Columbia University has consistently locked the gates every time there was an illegal protest, an unauthorized protest. And lock the gates, that's not just to the

schools, that's to the campus, to the quad. Exactly. And the reason they've been doing this is that they can select which media comes in and not. Which, by the way, I have, I also went to Columbia for a year in my shame. I was at Columbia Journalism School. And the buildings of the campuses are always key locked, but key card locked. But the quad itself, which is that open space where now the encampment has settled, is always open.

It's open to the public. People can cross between Broadway to Amsterdam. Avenue, people who have nothing to do with the university. It's just a public space. Yeah. And from 113 or 12 to 120. I mean, it's, it's always been open. They have consistently locked it so then they can control which media comes in and which doesn't. That's why it's been so important for me to document everything. So I show up on Monday. And the COO... And this, the tendency to start locking that, that open space has been as preceded even the encampments. It started happening when the protests.

were starting to get notoriety. No, no, no. It started from the very first protest. No, that's what I mean. October 12th, again, before Israel even responded, it was the first time, I think, since the Vietnam War, that they locked the gates, or maybe the first time that they brought in police.

But anyway, so I go on Monday, and I try to come in and I'm barred out. And the CEO is waiting there for me. the vice president of public safety is waiting there for me. And they're telling me you can't come on campus because we cannot guarantee your safety. If you want to counter protest, I said, no, I don't want to counter protest.

All I want to do is go seat peacefully inside the illegal encampment and read the names of the 133 hostages, including the three U.S. hostages that are still being held by Hamas and that these people are supporting Hamas. And that's what I want to do. It's not a protest. It's me peacefully sitting wherever I want to sit in a public space on campus because I am an employee.

So that was Monday, and they barred me from entry. Media in is the university keeping the media out? This is the COL of the university. Are we not letting the media in? My card has been deactivated? Can you back up, please? Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Everybody, my card has been deactivated.

This is Cass Holloway, the COO. This is Gerald Lewis. They were in the meeting where I asked them if Hamas is a terror organization and they couldn't say that it is a terrorist organization. Why, I'm a professor. Shy, we are willing to take you to the math law?

No, I am a professor here. We are a pro-lumannists. We have a room. Wait, whoa, whoa, everybody, quiet. I am a professor here. I have every right to be everywhere on campus. You cannot let people that support Hamas on campus and me and professor, not go on campus. Let me in now.

As far as I know, I'm still barred. Yesterday at Tuesday, and I found out for all of this, the university is negotiating with them. And that is exactly how terrorism as an ideology works. They threaten you with some unknown consequences. So you are so terrorized that you capitulate, right? Hamas doesn't need to blow up every bus in Israel, for Israel to give up something, right? They only need to blow up enough buses in Israel, right? This is how terrorists work.

And the ideology of like using force to force the other side to act in the way that you want. That's what's happening on Colombia. So last night, finally, Colombia said enough is enough. Well, probably the press has been pushing them. Politicians have been pushing them. And they gave him until midnight. I happened to be in the area last night at midnight.

And there are videos from the illegal encampment of people saying they're coming for us. We will fight. Are you ready to fight comrades? I started seeing students running towards campus to help their quote unquote comrades in fighting the police. There was a standoff. and then the university decided we'll give them until 8 a.m. to keep negotiating. And at 8 a.m., the university said, we have reached an interim agreement. We've basically capitulated to their demands. They will stay there. They will remove some of the tents. They will try to keep a safe space for everyone,

which is complete PS. And we have 48 hours to keep talking. You know who they didn't include in the negotiations? The Jewish students. The people that are being attacked. The people that are being discriminated against. The university, it's like negotiating with the rapist, but not even taking into account a victim of rape. And this is where we stand.

Last night, I was with a group of students, Jewish students, who were telling me for stories, just for our experiences. And can I play you a recording? Because the Jewish students are fleeing campus. They are not feeling safe. They do not want to be on campus. And I met the students.

He's from Belgium. And he said that his parents are very afraid and they want him to come back home. And I said, why don't, you know, and then he doesn't want to go back. home and asked him, you know, you're given an option to do it on Zoom. Why don't you do it on Zoom? And this is what he said.

Wait, so tell me again, because what you just said is incredible. So you, there's Hamas on campus, you and I both know it. Yeah. You live off of campus. Yeah. And you, you can go on class on Zoom. Mm-hmm. And you said you don't want to do Zoom.

No. Why is it so important to you? Because in 1940, my great-grandmother stopped going to school. She was living in Belgium at the time, and she had to stop going to school. And after she stopped going to school, she could never go back. She lost all her family and had to build the life after the war. And I told everyone to be in the position of being unable to go to school because there's terrorist anti-Jewish protests in campus.

Wow. is it honestly i don't know the answer let me let me stop recording so i ended up i ended up telling the student after a conversation that he should go back to belgium i was it was horrible for me to say it but he has a responsibility for his parents and his family to be safe the university has made it clear that they cannot protect the Jewish students, the universities barring NYPD from entering campus and actually protecting the Jewish students, I can't protect each and every one of them.

And he's going back to Belgium. He, it's history, it's just history repeating itself. And again, with the Jews as being the scapegoats. So I want to, I want to have to drill into this, this question about the risk to Jewishness and trying to deal with risk assessment because it's, I think for both of us,

it's very emotional and very personal, which also makes it very difficult for me to critically evaluate how much of this is a pathetic mob of students that is being indulged by a spineless university and how much of this is something that I should take more serious. and more with with more dread and let before before being getting there because I see

you you want to play me something and then so we'll get there in a second I want to first ask that the difficult question that keeps coming up is who are our Jews really the target here yes yes listen I understand I understand where you're coming from it's actually because we're both Israeli and because we're both Jewish but we're having this conversation because we have been taught to internalize the Vera attacks, the fear, and question it in order to delegitimize our need for protection. You did not, no one had this conversation in 2020 when the U.S. was going for a very much-needed racial reckoning, no one was asking the question of, and they shouldn't have. So I think it's

okay. No, are African-Americans really unsafe? No, yeah, they are unsafe? Listen to it. So I come from the perspective of sometimes the whole discourse of safety can go too far on every group. And I think there are definitely areas where there was true risk and there is certainly inequities that need to be addressed, but also American culture has that tendency of, let's call it risk inflation, right? I'm not American. I'm not American. Right, right, no, exactly.

I'm Israeli. Exactly. That's why we're having this kind of conversation. But for instance, the question about Jewishness, they, the protesters will say, look, we have Jewish voices for peace. We have people who identify as Jewish from a Jewish heritage, from a Jewish, family, or even Jewish in practice, who are also anti-Zionist and are part of our front. So we're clearly not anti-Semitic.

We're clearly not targeting Jews. That's what the Nazis, but the Nazis had the same thing. There were organizations Jews for Hitler. All you have to do is Google it. There were Jews for Hitler before, you know, before they realized what was happening and when they realized it was too late. And the Nazis were using exactly those organizations to say that, look, you know, we're okay.

We're kosher. but on the let me ask you this yeah let me ask you this if we go now on campus i can't go in your media you can you we can try to get you in are you willing to go stand with your magandavid and you know your kipa i amaka you know and maybe god forbid an israeli flag because you are israeli right so inside the illegal income so i would will you will you be willing to do so so i will I will be afraid for my safety if I present Israeli, right?

If I if I have an Israeli flag I would be actually scared for myself and I think this is part of the interesting line here. If you come in as a Jew just like all of my students wearing a

yamaika or a tete and your big star of David will you Will you go inside the illegal encampment? That's the question. It's the, and I get it. I get it.

We have been taught to be gaslit. But the fact that your answer is not a resounding, yeah, sure, why not? Because if I ask you, are you willing to come with me to, I know, Central Park, Riverside Park with a Yamaka? Do you, will you feel safe? Yeah. You'll be like, yeah, of course. Are you willing to come with me at any university in a. Israel, will you feel safe? Yeah. Will you be going with me? And he's like, no. Yeah. The terrifying

thing, and I think this is the point, is that my brain thinks, well, if I would try to get in and avoid physical harm, my instinct would be, well, have something that telegraphs that I am part of their political perspective. That's something that I will say, justice for Palestine. You know what that's called? Terror. That the only way for you to feel safe is to get on board. That's terrorism. And terrorism comes from the extreme right and it comes from the extreme left. But that's exactly it. I mean, and the question I just posed to you, I've been posing to many people and I get the

exact same response. And I ask non-Jews, would you be willing to put a yarmulka, a star of David, and go stand in the middle? It's the same response ever. When people put themselves in the position of the Jewish students, they realize that there's an actual safety concern, not a feeling safe, not a, not a, you know are you really it's an actual issue of safety but can i play you something yeah yeah go ahead one of my concerns is that people think like oh these are just indulge versus this this idea that people

are again it's not out of bad intentions this idea that people are just oh like it's just in a few like white kids from wisconsin with kaffias i want you to listen to so so the entire world basically he has seen the video of me being barred entry from campus, standing up on a desk that was there, right outside of campus, and speaking to the crowd saying, like, I've been barred because I'm a judge professor, I have a right. Now, here's the recording of how this was conveyed, was brainwashed into the illegal, inside the illegal encampment. So this is what they said, and you'll hear a call or response. The leader is saying something, and the sheep, the wolf is saying something, and the sheep respond. Okay.

shy was denied entry he's not allowed on his feet he said some racist things at this time at this time at this time can you repeat what they said can you repeat what they said? So you hear him saying

shy was denied entry and we're all shot shy was denied entry he he will only be allowed at the business school he will only be allowed at the business school he stood up on a table he stood up on a table he stomped his feet he stomped his feet said some racist things said from some racist things for brainwashing them because you and i know the reality and and it's not like don't listen to me i've always like from the very first day i said don't listen to me don't take my word for it I've posted all the videos. You've seen the videos, but that's the brainwashing. That's what makes this actually unsafe.

And as long as people indulge them into saying like, oh, look, it's just protesters. It's a cult. They've organized a cult. And there's been media that's been reporting. Fox News, which I don't agree with most of our politics for various reasons. I do, some don't. That's democracy. They had a reporter try to speak with people.

in the illegal encampment, and then four CAFIA-clad organizers came up to them and say, you do not speak with the protesters, we have a media team. Please turn off your camera. Why would protesters have a media team and not allow the media to speak with the actual protesters? Right. You've had other accounts of them, of a journalist talking about, however, is a strict organizational hierarchy there, just like in cults, just like in terror cells. They have the exact same structure.

There's reports of them fencing in certain people, saying them that this is for your own safety, not letting them walk freely inside the illegal encampment. It's all out there. All the videos are on my social media feed. This is very redolent of the liberated zones, quote unquote, during 2020 in Portland and Seattle. Yeah. The liberal, the critical liberated zones that were trying to burn down the city. And they were saying, burn it all down.

It wasn't, you know, it wasn't an interpretation. Like, again, I don't want people to listen to me. Who I am, what I am doesn't matter, and I'm insignificant, really am. It's the, it's the videos. It's the posters. It's the posts. I've been putting everything out there. And some of the things are just so crazy.

that I don't even know how to interpret them. Columbia, S.J.P, students for justice in Palestine, they were not active on social media until October 6. They got, they reactivated their social media account on Instagram on October 6, saying we're back. I don't have an interpretation for that. I don't know if that's a coincidence. I don't know.

But I do know that that's a fact. and the fact is documented, and people are not, you know, don't engage with me, don't engage with them, engage with the facts, watch the videos, look at the posts, look at the pictures, everything. Give me back to where we are administratively. So, Shafik was giving testimony before Congress a couple weeks ago, right, early April. Was it last week? It was, it was been such a long week. It was last Wednesday. She lied under oath. She was caught lying under oath by Elise Tophonik. She said, are you know, she's the least of funny because this is, again, not someone I agree with in a lot of things, but she was great in this. And she was right.

She said, very nicely, are you changing your testimony? That means, what was it about? Several things. I've documented everything. So, Shafiq said that Dr. Muhammad Abdu, the guy with the professor who says that he is Hamas in Chisbalah, but he's been terminated and is right now just creating students' grades, papers. And at least Stephanie told her, well, actually, I have a picture of him right here. He's right now in the illegal encampment, you know, indoctrinating the students. She said that Joseph Mossad, the professor who said that October 7th was awesome and a great victory.

She said that he's no longer chair. At least Stefanik said, like, according to the website, he's still chair. Minushafik said that he's under investigation. He said later that day in an interview to the wife. Washington Post, but he has no idea of what investigation she's referring to. He doesn't know of any investigation ongoing. She said that the, um, at one point she was presented with a glossary that is given to every student, incoming student in the school of social work. It's like an orientation. And it has basically this, the same indoctrination, things like Ashken, Ashkenormativity.

Ashkenormativity. That is, that is turning or conflating Ashkenazi Jews, which are Jews from Eastern European descent with the language of white supremacy, right? Exactly. It's calling Jews white supremac. And she was asked, and Shafiq said, this is not an official Colombia. This is a student thing. And it is. It was started by students, but it was on Colombia's website, the School of Social Work,

up until a few weeks before the investigation, and they scrubbed it off the website. Luckily, it's been archived because the Internet remembers. So she continuously consistently lied under oath. Another thing that's personally harmful, there's an investigation going on against me at Columbia's campus. From whom? By whom? By Colombia.

The office of equal opportunity and affirmative action is an office that is supposed to protect protected classes, which is the extremely important office. So against racism, sexism, homophobia, transphobia, everything. And it's being weaponized against me for speaking up against terrorism and anti-Semitism. And she was asked about this. In what sense? Because calling this terrorism is threatening students?

Is it threatening students? Is it Islamophobic? What are the accusations? They are accusing me for harassing students based on shared ancestry. That's the letter. That's the word of the letter. What does that mean? You tell me.

It means with university, because I've been consistently speaking about pro-terror organizations, I have not been speaking about specific students, and I have been outwardly outspoken about my support for Palestinian people, support for Palestinian statehood, my abhorrence with Islamophobia. So the only thing that that means is that Columbia University sees my calling out as pro-terrorizations is bad, and they see pro-terrorism, support for terrorism as a protected class. Now, the reason I bring this up is because the president of Colombia was asked about me personally by name, by Congress member Ilhan Omar, who's a known anti-Semite. She, I mean, she has a rap record that's longer than the haggadah.

And he'd been name-checked. And I was name-checked. And the reason I was name-checked, the reason why Ilhan Omar is so involved is because her daughter is one of the organizers. And when the president was asked about my investigation, she didn't know any details about Joseph Mossad. She didn't know anything about anyone else.

And like this investigation she lied about. She knew a lot of details about mine, things that I didn't know about. But she interfered with my due process. She should have said, we do not discuss ongoing investigations of employees because that's what you do when you assume innocence

and you allow everyone a fair process what she said was complete lies she said that I'm being investigated for harassing students that's not it the the Office of Equal Opportunity Affirmative Action after my lawyers asked them to fulfill her duty

and tell me what I'm being investigated for they sent me a list. And it's all social media, my social media activism, things on Twitter, which is my free speech. And it starts with that video on October 18th, where I say that rape is never okay. So I urge everyone, go watch that video. It's 10 minutes long. Go watch that video. That's what I'm being investigated for. And that's it. And where are we now? What was the last contact that you have with administration? Monday morning when they wouldn't let me in. When they wouldn't let you in?

I don't even know if I have a job on July 1st. I'm not tenured. My contract renews annually, just like any non-tenured professor, and I don't know. And you haven't been in touch with anybody. You haven't heard anything. No,

the only thing I was in touch is with the dean of the business school, who's been privately and personally very supportive and has just been put in this horrible position. by the administration and I emailed him on Monday night after seeing this video of brainwashing and I realized that it's unsafe for me to go anywhere on campus, not just the main campus

but the business school and I had to do something but I've never done in 12 years of teaching which is cancel a class I told him I don't feel safe it was my final class and I just can't be on campus

to put this in context 10 years ago when I was in graduate school I was teaching a class to undergrad at Cornell and my as my grandfather was

dying and there was a moment where it was clear with my dad my grandfather is going to pass away and I Skyped him this was before FaceTime

and I Skyped him and I said goodbye and that I love him and when I went into the restroom and I washed my face and two minutes later I was teaching my class I have never had to cancel a class and you know what it's a shame

it's a shame not just as a juror as in Israeli it's a shame as a professor that I've been put in this situation that I cannot give my students the education that they deserve and they pay for because Colombia it's not that they cannot keep me safe, it's that they will not keep me safe.

It's not that they cannot guarantee my safety, is that they are unwilling to take the actions to guarantee my safety. Who are you hoping to reach with this? Non-Jewish Americans. I think non-Jewish Americans need to realize that this is not a fight about Jews.

It's not a fight about Israel. It's a fight. about democracy. It's a fight about the United States. The only time you see an American flag in their protests is when it's being burnt down. Now, that's freedom of speech.

It's one of those things, but it's hard to understand and grapple with, but you can burn the American flag. It's your freedom of speech, but it also shows your character, and it also shows your intention. They chant down with the USA. They are cheering on Hamas,

And I'm going to mention this again, but chewing on Hamas to keep holding the three U.S. citizens that are currently in Gaza. The most basic thing in the Declaration of Independence is that Americans, all people, have an inalienable right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. And right now you have Columbia students and faculty

who are cheering on the Hamas and the Islamic jihad who are denying denying U.S. citizens for inalienable rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. And so I'm hoping that Americans will understand. This will not end with Colombia. It's coming to all campuses,

and it will not end with the Jews. It never ends with the Jews. All you need to do to understand what's going on is open a history book and read the history of Germany from 1923 to 1939. how the population was prepared to do what they did. Are there any, have you seen any of the campuses that,

I know we're coming on time, but I just want to know, do you know of any campuses that have done a good job in dealing with this problem? Because it's not just a Columbia problem. do you know anybody else because this is not just a Columbia problem we've seen similar incidents in Yale and NYU and Harvard and Berkeley and Stanford and University of Michigan all over the place right is anybody doing a good job no one is doing a good job some are doing a horrible job and some are doing a better job there is you know and I'm not counting the the universities of it

are predominantly tailored towards Jews. Yes, yes, yeshiva University, Turo College, Brandeis. They're doing a great job, you know. But that's like saying Jews are safe in the ghetto. Yeah. Like if you put it in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the,

in the, in the, in the, then, then we'll be safe. Nowhere else. I mean, some places are doing a better job. Um, you know, very universities were, no Jewish students and no Jewish faculty and no Jewish staff and so everyone feels safe, you know, versus saying, no Jews, no problem. I wish I had a different answer. I really wish I had a different answer. And I wish some universities now might wake up before it's too late.

Do you think there's a, in terms of the broader public, do you think there is, what's your, if you could put your finger in the pulse of the American public, do you think there's a silent majority that is troubled, disgusted, outraged as we are by what's going on? Or do you think people don't care? Or even worse, do you think people are okay with this? I think people, most people don't know because they don't get it firsthand. They get it mediated by like the New York Times, who has been consistently downplaying it and playing both sides of them from the very first moment. Sharon Otterman has been covering this, and I've stopped giving interviews to the New York Times. I, on 2016, when Trump started attacking the New York Times, I subscribed to the New York Times.

And I said, regardless of what I think of them, I need to help the free press. In 2024, I canceled that subscription because seeing firsthand how Sharon Otterman and New York Times are downplaying this. Now, it's a risk because they are painting, everything I just told you, they are painting that is like, no, it's just peaceful. It's just pro-Palestine. It's not pro-hamas. And that's how the American public is getting this. Same thing with 60 Minutes. When I was on 60 Minutes, they played both-sidedism. Go back to what did the 60 Minutes episode from, you know, early November. They have me and one of the pro-Khamas organizers. And they're like, oh, look, it's a story

with two sides. What they failed to mention is that this guy, was also part of the second intifada. He's gone on record saying that he was one of the, you know, when he was a youth, he would throw rocks, you know, at the IDF. Like, so they've been playing both sides of them. So I don't blame most Americans for not knowing because they've been duped. That's why I'm saying like, and don't believe me. Everything is on my social media.

It's at Shai Davida on Twitter and just go and see with your own eyes and then make your decision. But I think most Americans of it are aware. are very, very worried and are very concerned because they know what's up. And this is not a story about left or right. I think the U.S. has it all wrong. This isn't about Republican or Democrat, liberal, conservative.

This is about moderates versus extremes. I have way more in common with moderate Democrats and moderate Republicans when Roshita Klebe, even though I'm a liberal, she's not a liberal anymore. She's illiberal. And I have way more in common with moderate Republicans and Democrats than I do with Marjorie Taylor Green.

Or, you know, because again, it's about moderates versus extremes. And most Americans, from the left, from the right, I don't care. They're good people. They understand what's going on. They really do believe we may not agree on everything, and that's good. That's what democracy is. It's like not agreeing. striving to get to the truth,

striving to get to an understanding. But in the end, it's just, it's just what do you stand for? Do you stand for rape as an act of resistance? Or do you stand for democracy? I want to take your wisdom, if there's something, if there's some,

or a story that's not yet, that you want. Listen, I think one thing is important to note. And it's important for me to know, it's not, you know, for no reason other than this is what I believe, and I want people to know who I am and what I believe. And this might get me in trouble with Jews or Israelis on the very far extreme rights. What's happening in Gaza is horrible. We should not downplay or dismiss the pain and suffering of hundreds of thousands of civilians. We shouldn't.

It would be inhumane of us. Just like we shouldn't, no one should downplay the pain and suffering. suffering of the tens of thousands of Israeli families and that have been affected and the hundreds of thousands of Israeli families from the north and the south who have been relocated and our refugees within our own country and can't go back home. We must keep our humanity. We must keep our ability to have empathy for all sides of the conflict. Civilians on both sides. It's the issue when people conflate caring for the victims with supporting the oppressors. And Hamas is right now both oppressing the Palestinian people in Gaza

and the Israeli people, Jewish and non-Jewish in Israel. Because we have to remember, very few democratically elected Palestinians in the Middle East. Very few democratically elected individuals of Arab heritage in the Middle East. And all of them live in Israel and serve in the Israeli parliament and have served in the Israeli government. Everywhere else, those are not democracies. And we know it. Again, don't listen to me. Go read about this.

And Mansou Abbas, one of the only democratic, elected Palestinian individual in the Middle East, who lives in Israel, served as a member of government up until a few years ago, has said, Hamas does not speak for Palestinian people. Hamas does not speak for Muslim people. What Hamas did is horrific and is not who we are. And Mansoor Abbas, for people who don't know, is not what you would consider necessarily a moderate he is no not at all is it's a very religious islamist part like he represents a very religious Islamist faction but within the constraints of the Israeli democracy within constraints of any democracy right I think he he's he has his beliefs that I disagree with and strongly

disagree with but he's a good person who believes in humanity and life and he understands and he believes in democracy. And the problem is that the media, by painting what's happening as pro-Palestinian versus pro-Khamas, is doing a disservice to the Palestinian people who are standing up against Hamas. And it's also making it hard for people like me and others like me to create a third way. Because since early December, and again, it's on my social media. Don't take my word for it. Go and see. I have called for someone, anyone, to form a coalition with me who will be a pro-Israel, pro-Palestine, anti-terror coalition on campus. And not only that, that guy that was in the 60 Minutes

episode with me, who's one of the organizers of the pro-Khamas mob, we had coffee off camera, coffee and baklava. Off camera, for three hours, we had a conversation. And at some point I said, why don't we, both of us, we both want the same thing. We want to help the Palestinian people achieve a state, but also we want peace. Why don't we both have a protest together, a rally? I will go on stage first, and I will say, I'm Shai Davidai, I believe in Palestinians' rights to self-determination and a Palestinian state. Then you go on stage and say, I am so-and-so, I don't want to say his name, because he's a student.

I am so and so, and I believe in Israel's right to exist, as the home of the Jewish, as a democracy, but as a home of the Jewish people. And he said, I can't do that. Six weeks later, he was shouting into a bullhorn on Columbia's campus in an unauthorized protest saying, there is nothing more honorable than dying for a noble cause. I will not stop advocating for a two-state solution, even if it angers a lot of my Jewish and Israeli friends,

because that's who I am. And I don't speak for an organization. I speak for myself. I will not stop feeling deep empathy for what's happening on Colombia's campus, obviously, but in Gaza, more important. At the same time, I will not let them remove the option of coexistence from the table and saying it's either

Hamas or nothing. There must be another way and that's why I've been urging the media stop calling these pro-Palestinian protests because by doing so you're saying the only way to support Palestine is for armed resistance and if that's the case then I think we have a much bigger

issue at hand. We've reached our time. I just want to see I remember you, I don't remember if you ended up saying that there was something you said that you didn't have a chance to talk up to the media before about a story that you wanted to share earlier. That's what I thought. That's what I thought. Just want to make sure that you got it is in anything else that you. We haven't touched on. Honestly, like, we haven't touched on a lot of things. The past six months have been a lot. A lot. And, and that's why, like, I know,

like, so everything exploded for me personally in the past 48 hours, 72 hours. And I've getting a lot of, fielding a lot of calls and messages from journalists and podcasts and podcasts. and everything. And I can't deal with all of it. And I tell them, like, go look at the threat. This is not, this is not the Shai Daedai story. This is not the Shai Dei show. This is the story of the Jewish students, Jewish faculty, Jewish staff at Columbia. Go look at the videos and you tell the story. I think what's valuable in talking to you, and this is, this is just your last chance to wreck your brain. If there's anything else you want to share, is that you have the perspective of the, from inside of faculty. So you get to see how things,

gone not in the camera facing like we've seen we have seen a lot of the footage from the ground from phone cameras but we don't know what the conversations are like inside the campus well unfortunately because Colombia is barring me from campus and trying to silence me and fire me for this sham investigation you may not know because I've been the only one speaking up and Colombia knows it so Colombia is trying to remove that voice so hopefully we could do this again right six months and but but even in the past six months in the in the conversations that you've had internally is there something else that we we don't know that was going on people that have been coming to you privately or either threateningly or in

support they are there's a lot i i i really urge people first you know go over my friends from like on Twitter in the last six months, but also follow this account called documenting Jew hatred on campus. It's an archive that students, faculty, postdocs, and some volunteers at Columbia just created. And it has everything, and it's open to the public of everything. And it's organized by date, by incident. Everything has been reported to the university. So the university is known real life like on real time we've been reporting it i'm a professor educate yourself do your homework and if you do your homework and educate yourself and still disagree with me that's that's good that's important to have disagreement but come into the conversation after you do your homework

and education is the most important thing right um if you think of anything else that you want to share or anything that happened like again any internal conversations on campus that can shed light to what's the psychology among faculty. That's something that we are trying to understand. So I can tell you this. This is something that, you know, I've always been obsessed with the history of Nazi Germany leading up to 1939.

Because we all know Auschwitz. We all know the final solution, the Vanzar Convention. We all know those things. But people, like, life doesn't start in Auschwitz. It's like, what set the ground for it? And I've always been obsessed by it. And now I know the University of Berlin was active,

even while Jews were barred from it. The University of Munich, the University of Frankfurt, University of Heidelberg, they were all active, just euda, fly, free of Jews. Who do you think the professors were there? Good people, just like my colleagues, good people. People that I've had lunches, dinners with, that I've had drinks with,

that I've played with their kids, they've played with my kids, good people that are looking the other way. They're, like, who do you think were the administrators that barred the Jews, Jewish faculty from entering the University of Berlin? COOs, like Cass Holloway from Colombia,

good people. They were just doing their jobs. And people at Columbia now, and my colleagues, they are just doing their jobs. Now I understand. I don't I don't know where we're headed

I don't know if we're headed towards an Auschwitz or towards a pogrom or a far hood or just random attacks I don't know where we're headed but I know we are headed and for the past six months I've been calling things out which now people are saying

oh you've been calling this out for six months well I'm telling you I'm calling it out also for the next six months don't just listen to what I've said about now and say you are right listen to what I'm saying about where we're headed but now I understand well Shai thank you so much thank you not for having me thank you for telling the story