The Dispatch Podcast - Democracy and Freedom | Interview: Natan Sharansky

Episode Date: March 11, 2024

Human rights activist and former Israeli politician Natan Sharansky joins Jamie to talk about his letters to the late Alexei Navalny, the current political mood in Israel, and the spread of anti-Israel sentiment on college campuses. The Agenda: -Navalny's murder -The threat of left-wing antisemitism -The future of Israeli-U.S. relations -Comparing Joe Biden and Donald Trump and their administration's work with Israel -Pressure against Israeli politicians -The likelihood of Arab countries helping Gaza -Reflections on democracy and freedom Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hello, everybody. Welcome to the Dispatch Podcast. I'm Jamie Weinstein. My guest today is Natan Shuransky. Natan Shuransky was most famously a Soviet dissident who was imprisoned in the Soviet gulag for nearly a decade for standing up for human rights, before he made his way to Israel, where he is widely recognized as one of the world's leading human rights advocates. He served as minister in four Israeli governments as the author of four books, including the influential the case for democracy is the only non-American citizen to be awarded but the Congressional Medal of Honor and the Presidential Medal of Freedom. He also served for a time as the head of the Jewish Agency and is currently the chairman for the Institute for the Study of Global Anti-Semitism and Policy. We discussed many topics, including Israel's fight against Hamas

in Gaza, what is going on on college campuses, and we opened with questions and comments about his letter exchange with the recently killed Russian dissident Alexei Navalny. Without further ado, here is Natan Shuransky. Ton Shuranski, welcome to the dispatch podcast. Thank you for inviting me. There's many I want to discuss with you from what's going on on on college campuses to what's going on in Israel. But I want to begin, since you are here in your experience, and just ask you about what your relationship was like

with Alexei Navalny and where you were when you heard about his passing. Well, I didn't know Alexei Navalny. I knew, of course, a lot about him, and I followed with some kind of excitement and, I think, a very inspiring career, if you can say, and the way how he enmasked the efforts of KGB to poison him were real spectacles.

Still, I didn't know him personally, and when I received a letter from his prison, I was really excited. He wrote me a letter after he read my book on Vemorrho's and was surprised how similar was our situation in prison. And then, with his station today, but for me it was like to get a note from my alma mater, which I graduated from many years ago.

And immediately we both felt like kindred spirits, because free people in prison, and as I was writing him, that by remaining free, in prison you are influencing on millions of unfree people on both sides and all parts of the world. And then we had short but very emotional exchange of letters, and then it stopped when his lawyers could not continue to do it. So it was clear for me that Alexei Navalny is ready, well, he's optimistic about historical struggle, and he said that my book adds him some optimism,

but he was ready for everything. Still, I have to say it was very shocking to find out about his death. I would not call it death, I would call it killing and cold blood, whether it was killing by poison or by fists, or simply by keeping him 300 days in the punishing cell, by the way it's unheard type of torture.

I had half of this term in the punishment, and I can say how difficult it is. So, but then it was clear that the aim of Pudor was to kill female and reach his aim. The letters between you two have been released and they're remarkable. I guess my only other question on this is, where does such courage come from for someone like Alexei and someone like you to, in the case of Navalny coming back to Russia, knowing that you will probably be imprisoned and very probably. killed. And as a corollary to that, as you mentioned, in those letters, it's kind of amazing how

free he seems in those letters, despite being in a gulag, in a prison in Russia, how do people remain free in such a circumstance? As I mentioned, by the way, in one of the letters, I was really infuriated, I would say. It was very irritated by some questions of the journalists, BBC journalists and some others, of the day when he went back to Russia.

They were telling, we all understood that he will be arrested. He didn't understand such a simple thing, is he naive or is he stupid? Why did he go? And I had to tell them that it is they who don't understand something.

that if he was fighting for his physical survival, then he would never go to Russia and maybe never will start his struggle. But because he was fighting for many years to influence on his own people, that they should not be afraid of this system, that they should resist to this tyranny. So that was the best which he could do,

the best way that he could deliver this message. I am not afraid of Putin. You also should not be afraid. And this, the fact that he is not afraid because he's a free person. When you start the struggle and suddenly you feel such a relief that you can do really what you want to do.

And you feel yourself part of big historical process, a great historical struggle, and you feel how important is every step that you're doing. to unmask this regime. It gives you strength to continue, and you even in prison, you prefer to be free person than so many loyal Russian citizens who are not free,

who are scared, who are afraid, who are silent, and so. So, yeah, well, I understand this feeling very well, and that was exactly the way how I felt in prison. And that's why it was such an almost joy, I would say, to have a dialogue with this free person in the Russian prison. I want to turn to what's going on on the college campuses, which has been a theme of this show. You wrote about this in December in Tablet Magazine. And let me just quote the opening of your article. You wrote 20 years ago after my first trip as a government minister

to 13 colleges campus in the United States, I told Ariel Sharon, then Israel's Prime Minister, that in my opinion, the main battlefield for the future of the Jewish people lies in American academia. Since then, I appeared dozens of times at different universities, and with each visit, I witnessed the new anti-Semitism growing stronger. You go on to say, in light of this experience, I insisted in many conversations with liberal American Jews that while left- and right-wing anti-Semitism are connected, and both are very dangerous, it is left-wing variety that poses the greatest threat. Explain what you meant by that. In love for... liberal Jew, probably for liberals in general,

it's so easy to believe that progressive, those who are speaking about freedom for everybody. But what we have to do for this is to help to oppress, to fight against the oppressors. And so in order to create the world where everybody is equal, it sounds like a great idea. And even if you have to pay some prize there will be some injustice on the way,

but the sake of this great idea, of course, you will feel solidarity with this traffic. That was exactly why I understand it very well, because that was stationed with many liberals about Soviet Union. And even in the days when Soviet Union was doing some of the most awful crimes, when Stalin was killing millions,

there were some liberals, including liberal Jews in the West, who were saying, but it's such a great idea, so let's, let's, Let's see where the direction is, and let's find the way how we can express solidarity to make sure that there will be less victims of the way, but the idea is very good. And the fact that they heard it in different forms,

again and again, from some liberal Jews, for example, there was a big debate about women's match on Washington. One million women, it was like five years ago, successful. And it was clear that the leaders of this much are anti-Somites, haters of Israel, and it has nothing to do with liberalism. But many Jewish women's organization was saying, but the idea of the equality of women is so important for us. So let's join it, even that we have our own reservations. And that was the problem. My problem is my friends, liberals,

myself also believe, though very often I'm called conservative. I believe that I am no less liberal than conservative, because I do believe in human rights, do believe in equality, in progress. And here people are taking this neo-Marxist approach, all this work movement's typical neo-Marxism. You divide all the humanity and oppressed or the oppressors. You say that the press is always right.

Oppressive is always wrong. We should not give freedom of speech to oppressor because it will make more difficult for oppressed. We should permit all to our press speak. And so on and so on. It's all Marxism, Leninism, or my childhood. And we know what was the result, how many millions of people were victims of this ideology.

So, unfortunately, we need to be needed such awful thing as this gang rape, sadistic killing, burning of the people alive, and so on what happened on the 7th of October. Any reaction of this by some progressives, that that is the real liberation, that's the beginning of the liberation of the world. And definitely only Israel should be accused on this.

And the fact that all those human rights against, so-called human rights organizations, didn't show any sympathy to the victims that women's organizations of America didn't express any sympathy to the most awful rape and torture of women for centuries. Find such description of such sexual relations which happened in this day. You will not find them. You have to go 400 years ago to pogroms of family. in order to see something which looks a little bit like this.

And so it was not condemned by any of these organizations. I asked me, recently I was meeting with Jewish Zionist from Ivy League universities. I said, was there any group, student group, which expressed publicly, sing with their solidarity with you when this whole things happened? And they were all thinking,

if they couldn't find one, then finally one said, no, we have, in the Yale, we have Buckley Society, like Federal Buckley Society, something. That's the own organization which expressed publicly some sympathy, all the characters to this unbelievable awful thing. So, well, and Buckley Society understand, it's not exactly liberal society, but they,

I don't know, I don't want to give reference, I'm very glad that they express it, But among those many groups who are fighting for human lives, they couldn't give me even one more example. So that's what I meant for years when I was saying that the most important problems between liberals and progressors. And liberals have to understand that progressives are not their allies.

They are not fighting really for human rights because the rights are oppressed, in this case, of Hamas even, you have to fight for, and the rights of oppressors don't exist. They don't have any rights in this crisis. That was their ideology for many years, and it's a big that you need such awful events. You know, they start understanding who are your real allies and who are not.

My question, I guess, is how did this occur, at the most elite universities, is usually the worst we're seeing at the most elite universities, where you have students who are effectively participating in pro-Hamas demonstrations. As you mentioned, you have heads of organizations who refuse to stand up for the women in Israel who were brutally attacked on October 7th. How did this ideology spread so quickly and become so prominent to where at universities, you have college presidents who seem so afraid to even.

stand up and support Israel after what you suggested, and I think is correct, probably the worst attack on Jews since the Holocaust. No, it didn't happen so quickly. Let's not make our task easier saying, well, it's happened so quickly that we didn't notice, as many people say. Twenty years ago, I said to Arian Sharon that campuses are the most important battlefield. It was before woke movement, before microaggression, before canceling the tactics and political correct acts. So it was long before. What really happened, there was Professor Said, who came, who said to Yasser Afan,

by the way he said openly, he wrote it, that the struggle of our people against Israel should not be kept as a conflict between Jews and errors. You have to put it on the developed conflict, and then it will be much easier to accept. He built a theory of anti-colonialism, that was the beginning of all this critical theories, where colonialism is always wrong, and the victims are always right.

And he said that Israel is colonialism. And I have to say, it was already then that many liberals were accepting this series of Syed as part of their, world of human rights. And then, if you remember, there was a conference, Durban Conference to Southern, when the only result of the first anti-racist conference of the United Nations in the world finished only with one result that Israel was declared to be a part in space. So that was in time when it was to be clear that simply the slogans of human rights

and anti-racist slogans, anti-colonial slogans, are used or make a kind of union with pure anti-Semitism. And when I was visiting these universes, I saw how it is influencing the students. They are liberals. They understand that Israel is the only democracy in the Middle East. But in the view of this new world fight

or oppressed against the presses, they felt discomfort, some kind of discomfort. Then it was really discomfort. It was fear to be not with what is fashionable today. And there's one of liberal Jews, then 20 years ago told me, and one of the Ivy Universe, that for me as liberal Jew, it will be better

if Israel doesn't exist. Then I don't have to talk about it. I really don't want to talk about it. And in fact, I was speaking about Jews, but in fact it was general, Seeing that liberal world started accepting these neo-Marxist ideas as part of its own world. So tradition, at the same time, the pure anti-Semites, on the left and the right, their number is increasing, and more and more people coming from Muslim countries and some of them

loyal to fundamentalist moments are becoming students of the universities. So on one hand, the number of people potentially sharing anti-Semitic views is increasing. On the other hand, there is such a worldwide, broad ideology which liberal camp adopts. And on the wings of this ideology, anti-Semitism goes like a flood over all the universities. And then when three presidents said what they said in the same, by the way, I told, we have to be very grateful to them. Really, somebody said, so you think we have to pay them salary. I think even pension, not only salary, because all of our organizations together for 20

years of yokey and explaining what is anti-Semitism and how deep it is in the kindnesses life, we didn't succeed to explain as well as they. Because what they said, they were asked about tilling of Jews, and they said, they is asking, yes or no, they said, it depends on countries. Why they said, are they anti-science? Of course not. But they have to pull back to their campuses, to their students, to their professors,

who believe that as a part of liberation movement, it's okay to kill Jews, because they're not Jews, they're Israeli, they are settlers, they are racist, they're colonists, it's okay to kill them. So that's why they say it depends on context, If it's speaking about single Jews, we're against. If it is speaking about part of liberation struggle,

maybe partial it's possible. So, we're not speaking about some anti-Semites. We're speaking about the leaders of the liberal thought today on the campus. And they are imprisoned by this racist, anti-Semitic, working on. Not long ago, I saw someone go through a sudden loss, and it was a stark reminder of how quickly life can change and why protecting the people you love is so important. Knowing you can take

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It's a single hub for managing your work and reaching your audience without having to piece together a bunch of different tools. All seamlessly integrated. Go to Squarespace.com slash dispatch for a free trial. And when you're ready to launch, use offer code dispatch to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. We had last week on the show, David Brog, I don't know if you're familiar with him. He was the head of Christians United for Israel for a while. And he says this ideology is actually spreading to young evangelical Christians in the United States.

Evangelical Christians are probably the most pro-Israel group. in the United States, but now the younger generation is subscribing to some of this ideology and becoming less pro-Israel. And I guess my question to you, which I haven't found an answer, and I've had a lot of guests on, how do you reverse what is going on? How do you reverse now that it's spread to these elite institutions, to the Ivy Leagues, to beyond that, to political party leadership in certain parties? And now potentially to youth movements that were traditionally pro-Israel are now,

kind of becoming subscribing to this ideology and as a result becoming less pro-Israel. It seems like a real problem for Israel. As to Israel, I have to say and I am dealing a lot

with the representatives of young representatives of Israel who are sent to different communities, Jewish communities, to the campuses I initiated such a program 20 years ago which today is very important. I always explain or tell them

My view, my view is you don't have to convince those falseaters that we are good people. You have to convince Jews that they have nothing to be ashamed of and they have a lot of reasons to be proud of. And I really believe that if we will stick to our way, and it will continue to be the only democracy, and even spite for human rights as we always fought, but without these false partners.

And if we really believe that our partners like evangelists, they also believe in this human rights. And we have all simply to show again and again how, and today is a very good example, how this policy has nothing to do with human rights, there's nothing to do with equality, has nothing to do with freedom, and to stick to our course,

that what we have to do. Now, if I were American, if I were American, If I were American political, I would be very concerned what it means for the future of the United States of America, not for the Jews of the United States of America, of course, but what it means for the federalists of the United States of the principles of which United States is built for United States being the defendant of human rights all over the world. I think it's big tragedy. It's always anti-Semitism is the first war. that something is wrong inside society. And it's very serious warning to American society, but it's just now happening. So yeah, I think it's not, we have to make sure that Jews understand

that it's against them and should not be partners of those for support in anti-Semitism and will continue defending the values in which we believe. But Jews as American, that everybody is American, should think very seriously where these anti-American, anti-human rights, anti-liberal ideologies where they take them. So it's my challenge to you, not challenge to me.

What you American have to do in order to stop this awful thing which threatens to the freedom of the world. I was one of the distrable, of the dissidents behind Zion Curtin, who knew that if there will be no America, if there will be no Reagan's intentions, we will be doomed.

So the fact that the leaders of the free world understand how it is important to defend the basic values, how it is important that the rights of the women will be the same whether they're called oppressor and oppressed. Without this, America is lost. I will give only, okay, that's a no. I want to turn to Israel in a second, but before I do, we now officially this week have

a race between Joe Biden and Donald Trump in America for the next president. I was wondering if you had an opportunity over your long career, meeting either or both of them, and if you have any thoughts of what they are like personally. Well, I met Senator Biden and then Vice President Biden, and a number of times. with him at the time when he was the president, but I know him very well many years ago as a very warm person. And a very sympathetic to Israel and to Jews.

And well, I don't want to interfere into your elections. We have enough problems with our elections, but I want to say that if it was election about personality, well for me, Biden is an excellent president. The problem is that it's not 40 years ago, and not 20 years ago when I knew President Biden, it's today.

And today there is a big challenge coming from the left, this progressive and democratic movement. To what extent he can tell, by the way, four years ago, I was answering, and I'm saying that my concern whether he can control it. And I was thought, what are talking about? There are some of excited students of the campuses.

It cannot be a problem for the President of the United States. He knows now that it is a big problem, and I don't know whether he is strong enough to do it. On the other hand, President Trump, I didn't mean, well, I met him on different receptions before he was the president, and he did a lot of good things where he was all, things were resolved when he was the president. But the fact that he believes that he can make deals with Putin,

that when he was in China, in Korea, not in China, he was speaking how the people love their leader. He doesn't understand the nature of relations between dictator and the people. And I'm concerned that progressives will become more powerful, and they are very powerful already in the university. God forbid if they'll become more powerful in the politics. And I'm afraid that the American president will start making deals with Putin and will

betray Ukraine and not only Ukraine, but the interests of the few of the world. Just one more question on this. I don't know if you have any kind of tying it to my first question about Navalny. One of the campaign comments that President Trump is saying on the tale that he is like America's Navalny because of the cases that are being brought against him. And I just wanted to know if you had any thoughts of the former president using or the former president using Navalny in that way. Well, no, I think it's where, unfortunately, when I was released from Soviet Union, there were many

people from prisons, from prisons, including American prison, who were writing me and explaining that their case is exactly my case, that it's unjust and so on. And I was also always answering them that you're lucky to be in American prison and not in the Soviet case. So, not wishing them to be in prison, but simply trying to show them the principal difference. There is, their dictator is trying to destroy any dissent movement and is using everything, including killing him. And it's like mafia. And here, I will not judge about all these trials, but America is a free country, still free

country, with indefinite cause, and exactly as we are angry when the other countries of the federal institutions are trying to undermine our democracy by interfering. I don't think that we public opinion of the world should be trying to undermine American juridical system. President Trump has to be very lucky that he goes through juridical system of the United States and through the political system of Putin. And these comparisons are absurd. As we speak, what would you say the mood is in Israel? Well, look, it's very traumatic time. I believe that trauma of the 7th October will stay without generation and maybe it was beyond it. Because really, we lived with a feeling

that for the first time in history, Jews have their state which defends us. And not, it's was not the state of the people. Everybody's in the army, everybody is involved. And suddenly, 1,200 people were killed the most awful way, and the state, for a few hours, the state was not there. And that's a failure which would be studied, with conclusions will be done, so on one.

On the other hand, mobilization, well, the media mobilization of the people was immediate. In one day, we became, came from the most polarized society. For a year, there were demonstrations, half of the country believed that the other half of the country, or is still in our democracy or is still in our Jewish character.

And it was such an awful polarizing in this society. In one day, we became the most united society. And now we discovered that all what we were fighting about is really not important. And it's a real part of the surface. But in fact, deep, in the heart. We are very passionate, very courageous, very united people. And there is a lot of, with all the tragedies, which is happening again, because falling over in the wild

years, there's a tragedy. But there are so many good energy, which is coming from our people. So I'm much more optimistic. I'd like to be as optimistic about America as now I'm optimistic about Israeli society. It seems from my perspective in America, there has been increasing calls. You're seeing politicians become less supportive than they were on October 7th.

And you kind of see that, I think, around the world. Does Israel feel that pressure? Are Israelis seeing those calls? Or are they still focused on trying to prevent Hamas from taking back Gaza?

Of course, Israel feel this pressure, but it's interesting reaction. When there was pressure, they started political debate, who has to be more blamed for this pressure, on the left, or the right, and so on. It doesn't exist today. Israel is so shocked by the attack of Hamas and so united, unanimously, from left to right,

that we have to destroy Hamas, if you will not destroy Hamas, Israel will not survive in the Middle East. survive in the Middle East. And Israelis are so angry that just this most awful act of violence after the Holocaust brings so much anti-Semitism all over the world, as I mentioned there is so little sympathy expressed by groups of the free world into the country. It's like marching order for new anti-Semitic campaign.

So that becomes so clearly expressed that Israelis at this moment almost don't care. They almost don't care about political pressure because they are absolutely sure that we have no choice. We have to, in order to guarantee the existence of Israel, we have to destroy Hamas, and that we have to be much more united as people. because anti-semitism is coming back big. And the fact that anti-Semitism is coming back big is much more influence on the mind of people than the fact that some of our good friends from America or other countries

are saying the words of criticism. So even sometimes when this criticism is correct, and there are sometimes not official that criticism is justified. Today, because of this atmosphere, Because of the atmosphere of tolerance to anti-Semitism, Israelis are almost incensed. They don't feel pressed with its criticism.

They feel they are mobilized to finish their immediate task to destroy Hamas and then to start dealing with the bigger problem of survival of Jewish people. Is there any – I'm starting to encounter this sometimes in the United States where, you know, there's some people that will say, I'm pro-Israel, but I don't like how Benjamin Netanyahu is conducting the war. Can you speak to whether there would be any major difference if, for instance, Benny Gantz was prime minister right now in the way he's conducting the war versus Benjamin Netanyahu?

I have to say that the fact that somebody does agree with Benjamin Deahou, as you know, at least half of the country does agree. But not about the way how he has the war. They don't agree about his attitude to many things before the war. and his attitudes to many things which are happening every day, the way, I am sure if today guns was the leader, the war will continue exactly the same way. And it's not accidental that in the cabinet of wars,

so called guns and BVC together, there is no disagreement about the war itself. So whether it will be easier to have a broader government, probably because of all the battles of the past, many people are not inclined to become partners of Netanyahu. But whether the war will build different. No, I think that the army is determined, and politicians are helping to the army

to do what everybody expects them to do. And as I said, we have a people's army. So practically every family is, when one or another way is involved. And Mateo goes in disagreements, and Matteo asked some other disagreements on other issues, the question of the war and how to deal with the war and how to deal with Kamaas,

there is unbelievable. Are you surprised that the Arab Accords, the Abraham Accords, have maintained throughout this war? I mean, is that something that you expected? I think the best proof that these accords, were not built on some, like Oslo Accords,

simply we will find the creator who will force his people to live in peace with us. This, of course, we are absolutely different. They were based on the desire, the big desire of the people to accept one another, on the peoples, and we saw it from the very first day what happened between the people of Emirates and Bahrain and so on.

And the fact that, in spite of this of war, but in all the other conditions, it could be very difficult for these countries to continue diplomatic relations. That they fight all the pressure of them. In spite of all I don't, Kuwait money and everything else, they stick to these accords. Then the best proof that the base of these accords

was very healthy, and they ensure that it's a question of a very short time when we'll broaden this accords, including Saudi Arabia. What do you envision the day after Hamas is defeated? What does Gaza look like? How is it run? Do you have your own concept of what you think will happen

or what should happen after Hamas is defeated? I have the same concept as they had 15 years ago, and I was against disengagement. I was proposing to Al-Sharon instead of this to support Palestinians who want to build social society. Recently, I wrote an article in Morset Journal together with Palestinian activists, Basa Vaid. And I believe that after the war,

with all the difficulties of your military control has to be, Israel has to guarantee security in military terms for years to come. As to these civilians, we have to encourage representatives of Arab countries, which recognize us, together with America, a representative of America, that they will find Palestinians

and will start building the civil society. The only demands which we have must have from this civil rule is that there'll be no education of hatred. The education has to be changed, like in the Emirates it was changed, and the absolutely new generation of different types of educated Arabs have to grow there, that economy will be

private and not belonging to dictate and that's how Arafat and then Hamas was dictating everything to their people. That instead of refugee camps, there was normal housing and that human rights organizations will be permitted and supported. And all after years and years of such a rule, when we guarantee our military security and they're trying to build civil society, we can come to normal negotiations about the future of this other, only when there will be rulers who are interested in the well-being of their people and not in destroying us. What is the likelihood that the Saudis or the Emirates would

help out there? They seem to not want to be involved. Yeah, I think as long as Hamas is alive, or it can return to power. That's what their main demand or exchange of the release of hostages. that first of all, they will be permitted to stay at power. As long as they are, power, there is no chance that any of the Arab countries will be involved. The moment Hamas disappears from political and military steel, and there is a need for civil leadership among Palestinians, I am sure that Arab countries, those who recognize us,

those who deal with us, will be ready to start dealing with the building of the future of Palestinians, together with Palestinians. Let me close with this a couple more questions. It's been almost 20 years, or maybe it's been 20 years since your famous book, The Case for Democracy. I remember reading it as a college student. I wonder, looking back, reflecting on it, are you still as confident in democracy, liberal democracy today as you were then?

Look, the original name of the book was the case for freedom, but publisher said that people don't understand freedom is too abstract, let's put in democracy. But what I was saying in the book, that all the people want to live in freedom. And we have simply to support it, to give them such an opportunity. I would say that big, of course, there are many societies where civil institutions are not developed. President Bush who became a big, my best book agent that I ever had in my life.

But he really liked the ideas of this book, but there was one idea with which he will disagree. I was saying that democracy, it's not about elections. Free elections and free society, that's democracy. And so the fact that people of Iraq were given the opportunity to have elections, President Bush believes that that will be there, that's nothing if there is no free society. The same about the other, that Condoleezza Rice was coming and pressing us to have a like kicking us.

And I was sitting in White House and saying, at least don't call it free and democratic. It has nothing to do with free and democratic elections. So the free world didn't prove itself as a friend of liberty and democracy when it's coming to the third world, even if at some moment there is great period of like what spring revolution, how it was called, in Arab world, Arab Spring, yeah? And if you see descriptions of people

who involved in this revolution, it's exactly like descriptions of us behind the Iron Curtain. When people stop being afraid, and that's the end of the dictator. But then after this, there is a very difficult period of building civil society. The free world cannot do it instead of there. But we all can decide that we are not supported,

Victorias. We are encouraging, we are linking our relation with them by the fact whether they are supporting or developing civil society. And I have to say, if I'm disappointed, I'm disappointed that we, the free world, didn't have enough, no, experience, enough proof that we are ready to support such a cycle, that we will not prefer to deal with the dictator whom we know, and not with

democracies that we don't know where it will go. So, yeah, I do believe, and there were some moments on history which proved that it's right to believe that all the people want to be free. I think free world can do not by imposing it, but by encouraging it can do much more it won't be happening. You anticipated my next question by mentioning George W. Bush. He was probably the biggest proponent of the book. Do you still keep in contact with him? Do you guys still talk? Yeah. Bush has, President Bush has a great institute, freedom, whatever it's called, freedom, supporting democratic dissidents in many countries of the three world. He has a great

board, because they are representatives of the Republican Democratic Party and Republican Party and leading specials in supporting democracy and vote. I'm also on the bond. And I am happy from time to time to have the opportunity to speak in his president to discuss things. Last time, it was probably a year ago. So yeah, even with some disagreements, very, very much. I'm very glad that the free world had a leader

who understood the importance of this desire of people to be free, as he told me once. I always thought that freedom is not American dimension. That's the gift of God. And I'm glad that you succeeded to explain what I didn't succeed. He wanted to make a compliment. But it's very important that there are a person

who understand the power of freedom. The one who understood and put the policy even much stronger, because it's President Reagan, who was the only leader who then said that Marxism will be the- Ash heap of history. Why, why he believed it? Because people who had regimes who are depriving people of freedom

are doomed to failure and that they will not, that people will not agree forever to save this regime. And he was, now that I'm reading the archives in the White House, you can see how human rights, how he had deep linkage between Star Wars, human rights, national relations, and he saw it as one concept of security, human rights. And that's why he saw Welch's evil in communism. I think he played a unique role in bringing down the iron curtain. Finally, I want to give you an opportunity to explain to Americans what Israel is currently fighting against, what it's like to be in Israel, and what you want them to know about Israel's current struggle.

Israel is all Israeli, by the way, on the left, on the right, and not only Jews, by the way, they feel very strongly that that's the moment when we struggle. for our right to exist as people in the state, in the Middle East. That we went like through the most awful sadistic massacre and rape of the nation. We as a nation, feel ourselves raped and humiliated, but it's not the revenge which we are looking for. Because we are too big, we are looking on the history of thousands years. We understand that if after this we will not destroy our enemy in the situation of Middle East, the weak cannot survive, the one big who can be attacked in such a way and will permit their enemy to exist, it means that we will disappear.

And that's feeling very strong that Israel has anger and the feeling that we are fighting for our security. But, and because we have people's army, we are the state with the people, so there was the quickest mobilization in our history. The army asked immediately, one day, to mobilize 300,000 people, with such a small country,

380,000 came. So people were not waiting for the orders to come. People were coming from the university's role. America, we were flying from Paris, from everywhere. Everybody felt that is the moment and we have to fight. And with this feeling of unity around fighting,

we live every day. At the same time, Israel's view, well, we feel it very often as Jews inside human history. We feel that that's also the struggle for the future of the free world. Because if that type of tolerance, which was given by the free will to, not non-liberal, to the terrorists,

to the ideologies which bring terror at this world. If it will continue, if nobody will be fighting with their weapons against it, then terror will threaten to all the bill. And here I is the one who is closely involved in defending Ukraine. I can say that there is some kind of similarity, and there was a number of times in Ukraine

by Palestinians during the world. And the similarity is, at least at the level of it, Ukrainian leaders, there is strong feeling they're fighting for the future of free world, because free world will be very different and not the rules of the existence of free world will be very different if Ukraine, if Putin will be. And here we can say, if God forbid, we will permit to Hamas to survive this awful thing, terror will become much more powerful in our world. So yes, Israel is this one feel that we have a lot of tragic and heroic stories every day

with the soldiers and with their families with the soldiers who are killed. And a lot of noble examples, but the feeling is that is the struggle for our existence, which you never had before, and that is the struggle for the future of the world. And if there are so many people in the world who are not with us, but with Hamas, so it's goes to them. It's almost not our business. Our business is now to win, and let our friends who try to convince the world that it is in their interest. Mr. John Sjronsky, thank you for joining the Dispatch Podcast. Thank you. You know,