The Dispatch Podcast - George W. Bush Paints E Pluribus Unum

Episode Date: April 30, 2021

Former President George W. Bush has done a number of interviews recently to promote his new book, “Out of Many, One: Portraits of America’s Immigrants,” but none have covered as many topics as Sarah Isgur and Steve Hayes covered with him on The Dispatch Podcast. President Bush touches on everything from his strategy going into painting a portrait, the impact immigrants have on the United States, the future of the Republican Party, and even President Biden’s massive spending spree in his first 100 days in office. Show Notes: -“Out of Many, One: Portraits of America’s Immigrants” by George W. Bush -Transcript of our interview with former President George W. Bush Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Welcome to the Dispatch podcast. I'm your host, Sarah Isgert, joined by Steve Hayes. And today we are in Dallas, Texas, talking to former president George W. Bush about his new book, Out of Many One, Portraits of America's immigrants. We're going to talk about the book and art and immigration and the future of the Republican Party and everything in between. And what a treat to talk to my former boss. Let's dive right in. Mr. President, this book is, it's incredible. It's an incredible read, but I want to start with the visuals. It's a book of your paintings. I want to talk about color. Yeah. So what stood out to me is that, you know, as president, you're a pretty buttoned up guy.

You know, plain suits, dark blue. blues, blacks, et cetera, and yet your paintings. I'm looking at Sumera Hawk and, you know, the background is this bright red. Her hair has purples and greens and reds in it. And as you describe it, you say, I painted Sumera. I tried to capture her pride and her sons, her joy and her work and her gratitude for our country. How do you think about color when you're talking, when you're trying to tell someone's story through pictures? Yeah, that's a great question. Well, first of all, I didn't think much about color when I was first painting. I was thinking about painting exactly what I saw.

In other words, I would call myself a Polaroid painter. I realize that that's not necessarily art. That is just reproduction. And one of my instructors, Big Jim Woodson, a fine guy, I taught at TCU for a long time, said, what do you want to learn? Kind of a gruff old guy. And I said, color.

And he said, throw away all your paints. I had bought every color in them, you can imagine, you know. And I said, okay. And he said, I want you to try using two yellows, two reds, thalo blue, and a white, and that's all. And from that point forward, I limited my palate, and I learned to mix paint as a result. And so every color in that book is based upon the primary colors. And as a result, it gives you a confidence in color. And it turns out I love color.

And so some of it just came naturally. You know, I'm thinking about Samara. I know her story. She's been abused as a wife, mistreated, loves her sons a lot, and is a big-time contributor to women's health in D.C. And so it was not so much thinking about the color, but thinking about how to make her vibrant. And, you know, the good things about oil is you put them on

and scrape them off. And so a lot of these portraits evolve. But thank you for talking about that. It was very important for me to get particularly the faces of women right so they would look at their portrait and not be disgusted by how I painted them. And I learned that lesson when I tried to paint Laura one time. I heard she didn't love it. That's a mild statement. Yeah. I, you know, I couldn't, I mean, what's wrong with it? Well, I'm anguish. Okay, well, I'm going to make you less anguish. What's wrong with it now?

Anyway, I finally just gave up. It's for the best. Yeah, it is. Yeah. How long have you been interested in painting? How have you been doing this? Here's the thing. I came back from the presidency.

Uncertain is what I was going to do. One thing I was certain of is I was not going to weigh in on criticizing my successors. And the reason I felt that way, is that the country benefits from the institutional stability of the presidency itself. Not necessarily the occupant of the office, but the presidency. And it weakens the presidency to be yet another talking head, another political voice. Secondly, I didn't like it when former presidents criticized me, and therefore I wasn't going to do it. I mean, to be clear, you didn't like it when I criticized you either.

But you know what? You weren't a president. It never will be. So therefore, I was very, very forgiving. I'd never want to be. I'd never want to be. You know, the truth of the matter is I didn't mind criticism because I think it's one of the key components of our democracy. And it's how the powerful are held to account. And I recognize early on that power is very corrupting. And all of a sudden you think, well, I'm powerful, therefore I'm all knowing. Or I'm powerful. I can do what I want to do. Or I'm powerful. My friends can benefit. And we need people to hold the powerful to account. It's what happens to be missing in Russia, for example, right now.

But I, and so, you know, I wrote these books about the presidency and my dad, and yet it won enough. And about eight years ago, by chance, I read an essay by Winston Churchill, painting is the pastime. And I strongly recommend it. First of all, he's an awesome guy. He's a great leader and a really good writer. And I turned to Laura and said, you know, I want to paint. And it was a shocking statement because I was agnostic at best on art. I mean, like, we live in a great art collection in White House.

I didn't even pay attention to it. And so I started painting. And I've been painting ever since. My first wonderful painting was a cube. And Gail was my instructor. And I convinced her I was serious, which made her serious. She got me to take a MoMA course online. I have been studying other artists now a lot.

I still study other artists to try to get a sense for how they achieved good color, for example, or emotion. And it's been one of the greatest learning experiences of my life. So this wasn't something that you did a lot as a kid and you painted and picked it up again? No, no. I was a little league player in middle of Texas. But no, you know, we didn't have a lot of art discussions around our house. house. But, you know, I'm passionate about this on the subject. And I use it as an interesting lesson in life that you're never too old to learn something. I mean, people get really occupied with what they're doing. That's fine. But at some point in time, you know, there's going to be

a learning challenge. And, you know, my advice to people who just retired is paint. in each story that you're telling through these pictures and by the way you pick up this book and you think it's just a you know going to be a pretty normal coffee table book it's really about the pictures you can sort of flip through what's being written but no the stories at my dinner table my parents were visiting when I read this book and I mean like it was the 19th century or something read to them from the book so that it could be our dinner conversation the stories are so wonderful that you include. Thank you.

I've noticed two things that were in every single story and it couldn't be an accident. Family, you always emphasized people's families. And second, the social capital surrounding them when they got to this country. And I wonder whether, as so many people talk about social capital

failing in this country, declining in this country, sort of the Robert Putnam Bowling Alone theory, do you emphasize that, because you're concerned about the future of social capital in this country or because you think it's more vibrant than we give it credit for? I think it's more vibrant than we give it credit for. There are millions of acts of compassion that take place on a daily base in America that most people don't know about. It's really one of the unique aspects of our country. You know, many societies

have forfeited compassion to government, but government's not compassionate. Compassion exists because people's hearts are pure more pure because they do want to love somebody and also one of the themes in this story is religion uh catholic charities for example as part of the compassionate agenda but uh the two north korean escapees found solace as a result of missionaries hiding in china waiting to envelop a stranger in love and uh you know my my whole point on all this immigration debate and stuff is, I think if we valued life as precious and every life matters, that we're all God's children, that all of a sudden the tone of the debate might be a little better. And no, I think compassion is very strong in America.

As a matter of fact, the more dysfunctional government looks, the more compassionate people are, because it is an efficient way of dealing in society. Let's move to immigration, because that's obviously the theme of this book. You have an essay by Yuvald Levin, who you paint and speak kindly of. And Yuval quotes this Abraham Lincoln quote that is just wonderful, and I want to read it so that everyone knows it. He's talking about people who come to this country and what the Declaration of Independence means to them. But when they look through that old Declaration of Independence, they find that those old men say that we hold these truths to be. self-evident that all men are created equal. And then they feel that moral sentiment taught in

that day evidences their relationship to those men, that it is the father of all moral principles in them, and that they have a right to claim it as though they were blood of the blood and flesh of the flesh of the men who wrote that declaration. And so they are. Do you think we do enough for immigrants coming to this country or even our own citizens to teach that sentiment? I think we teach it pretty well to immigrants because they may not be able to cite it, but they feel it. But many of our citizens take the beauty of that sentiment for granted. And so one reason why I wanted people to focus on the individual stories, because to a person, they're incredibly appreciative of what America stands for.

and you know they don't need a lecture on freedom to feel what a free society means and and so yeah no i i don't worry about immigrants they may not be able to quote it hell i couldn't quote it but i read it to be clear thank you that's good uh youvall is a smart guy and i put him in there for a couple of reasons one uh i know him and admire him but also because immigrants bring incredible brain power to our country. And he's a really capable man who can articulate the beauties of American experience in ways that, you know, people born here can't. Yeah, including people who think about it and write about it for a living like me. Yeah. I can't do it involved us. Yes, you're not trying. Right. So one of the things that struck me as I, as I read this, my brother, Andy, my younger

brother, worked for Catholic charities in Washington, D.C., with refugees and migrants. And he would come home and, you know, we'd have a beer after work, and he would tell these stories. And what struck me was the through line here about how much they appreciated what America provides, what America offers. And, you know, these stories, one after another, after another, are so incredible. Some of the details of the story, the first one, the Joseph Kim story, the first Bible verse he sees. After coming out of North Korea, where he sees, after coming out of North Korea where it's all black. And then he sees this. How talking about how immigrants appreciate America and how sometimes those of us who were born here take it for granted,

are there things that others can do? I mean, I think part of why you did this was to sort of shine a light on how a specialist. Yeah. What else should be done to make people appreciate what we've got? Well, you know, it's a, there needs to be leadership that in spite of and reminds people of the beauty of America, not the ugliness. Right now, we're just overwhelmed with a lot of friction, tension. But, you know, it's an interesting question that was asked about, do I think that America is a compassionate country? And I know it is.

And one of the stories, one of the reasons I talk about these stories is because almost to a person, they're willing to put something back in our society. In other words, the compassion they received as a catalyst, to then in turn give back. And it's that cycle of receiving and then giving and receiving and giving that had made us very unique. You know, it's, I hope this book will help

set a different tone for the immigration debate. I fully understand the populist angst that comes with the immigration debate. You know, I'll never forget a long time ago we were campaigning in a town in Iowa. and one of the Latino kids that was in my campaign, it's 2000, got profiled. And, you know, it really irritated me, frankly. And, you know, I was told by one of the city fathers that, well, we just don't see many of them around here.

And it became very apparent that immigration was going to create some cultural tensions. As those meatpacking plants up there in Iowa needed workers. And, you know, the Swedes weren't on all that anxious. to do it, that in comes people who are starving to do the work and hard work, hard workers. And all of a sudden, those communities begin to change, and the culture, the friction. And, you know, I didn't really realize that. I mean, after all, I grew up in Texas where we were Mexico. Can you understand where those, this is actually one of the main questions I wanted to ask you.

Can you understand those sentiments, though? I mean, I think a lot of it, I think we are in one of these spasms of, fear and an ugly, ugly moment to be sure. But some of that, I would say, take that example, what that gentleman told you. You grew up and you had a very particular experience with immigrants, right? Starting with Paula. Paula. And then from there, you saw immigrants in a very positive light. Absolutely. And as governor of Texas. Can you understand with people who haven't had that experience why they come to a different conclusion or they see that this is a threat this person might take my job yeah and one reason i can see it is because i studied history and i you know

i remember the no nothing party fiercely anti-immigrant i remember the immigration policy of the 20s too many jews and italians therefore we have zero immigrants except for of course on the texas border where immigrants were always coming in to help you know the cattle raisers and the farmers But, yeah, I fully understand it. And I don't cast dispersion. But I also know that without those immigrants, the economies of those areas would be, you know, paltry. And so, therefore, the purpose of the book and the purpose of, I think, responsible policymakers is to say, look, we fully understand where you're coming from. I mean, English as a second language is all of a sudden being introduced into classrooms for the first time in some school districts or hospitals, you know, with young, you know, immigrant moms in filling emergency rooms.

And we know that we understand your angst. On the other hand, I hope you take time to learn about the motivations and the positive contributions these citizens can make. sure. It's a natural phenomenon of, and it's not a one-time experience in our countries. We've been having these spasms of anxiety for a long period of time. On the other hand, Confident Nation says e pluribusunum. For the unsophisticated, Steve, that means out of many one. Thank you. I appreciate that. I'm happy to teach you a little Latin. But, you know, and sometimes we lose our confidence. You have said that not passing immigration reform was one of the biggest regrets, if not the biggest regret of your presidency.

Yeah. Do you think the Republican Party bears the majority of the blame for that? And has the Republican Party stoked some of that fear for political gain? No, I don't think so. I think plenty of Republicans know that immigration needs to be reformed. In 2006, I think the case, if I could lay blind. It would be to the Democratic leadership of the Senate for refusing to allow a bill to go forward without the amendment process. Now, this is very arcane.

But Senator, we had a good bill going, and senators needed to be able to try to amend the bill in order to go back to their constituents and say, I tried to make it better, but unfortunately they didn't vote for it. On the other hand, the good outweighs the bad. And so we got to, yeah, no, I don't blame Republicans for that. It would have been a hard fight in the House in 2006, but I'm confident we could have gotten a bipartisan vote on him. Now, and the reason I say is a regret, because it's my fault, I tried to reform Social Security before reforming immigration. And, you know, and I was warned. I'll never forget a bunch of Republicans came to see me and said, we hear you're putting Social Security reform in your state of the unions, 2005.

And I said, yeah, I am. I campaigned on it. I mean, I was quite explicit about that and immigration reform. And they said, well, we don't think you should do that. As a matter of fact, we're not going to support it. I said, you've got to be kidding me. I'm a Republican Standard Barrier. I just won.

I said, why aren't you going to report? He said, we'll lose seats. And I said, we'll lose seats in the next midterm if we don't do big things. But I got stubborn and tried to run with Social Security. It fizzled out. But I do believe if I had to surprise everybody and gone, immigration first, we might have got ahead of the populist uprising on the issue. And I'm curious about your reactions to President Biden's speech last night, but he talked

about immigration and he talked about the need to pass comprehensive immigration reform. But he also said, and if you don't want to do it comprehensively, let's just do some of these piecemeal. He mentioned dreamers and farm workers. Do you think piecemeal is now the way to go after a couple decades of failed comprehensive efforts? Yeah, yeah. I think that dreamers, Most Americans understand you're not going to take a kid that came over here as a young person and sent them back to nowhere. I mean, there's no place to go. And I put a dreamer in the book. Just want to make the case that a lot of these dreamers are making significant contributions.

Carlos is an engineer. You're doing extremely well in San Antonio. I think piecemeal probably makes sense. And I think the president, if I could be so bold, call in Republicans who are like-minded and say, let's see if we can't get something. done. You know, border security is always a touchstone issue on this, and Americans have got to be assured that the government is doing everything they can to enforce the border. But there ought to be a recognition that without some reforms, reforming will make it easier to enforce the border. So, for example, if somebody, if there's work to be done and somebody's got a work visa that

enables them to come legally, they're not going to have to sneak across the border. which means border patrol will be more likely to do their job right now the asylum system is totally broken i mean it's overwhelmed and we got border patrol agents who are not enforcing the law like they're trained to do kind of driving you know kids around at different sites or guarding places in west texas and uh and so but i do and so comprehensive may be too big a reach right now and so if they like if they can get DACA done and with some border enhancement you know, plans to give Republicans comfort and voting for the bill, then all of a sudden there's confidence to be gained. And then they can deal with the work or they can deal with the undocumented.

But, yeah, that may be a better approach. Is what we're seeing along the border right now, it's pretty predictable. People predicted it. Yeah, yeah. But top Biden advisor for asked questions about it before he was sworn in. Does he bear responsibility for what we're seeing? And does it make it harder? because everybody goes back to their corners and says, look, what's happening?

I agree with that. I think it makes it harder to pin blame on anybody. You know, Republicans hate this and, you know, administration doesn't like that. I agree that, Steve. I think finger-pointing makes it hard to get something done. It's still a polarized electorate, which makes it harder to get policy done. I think the change of administrations enabled the coyotes and the propagandists and the exploitors and the exploiters to say, all right, now we can get you in.

And these people are so desperate and they're so scared for their lives, they pay enormous sums of money and oftentimes are, you know, fooled. And they can't get them in. And as a result of people flooding to the border, the whole thing is like, you know, if you were to go down and ask Catholic charities, how are you doing? They're going to say, we're overwhelmed. totally overwhelmed and yet they're on the front line of

of trying to help and it's a I don't know all the details but I noticed they're now beginning to work better with the Mexicans and they're beginning to work with the border between Mexico and Guatemala and hopefully

that'll start and I pretty confident the words now getting out that the coyotes are lying to you and but whether or not the desperation and hope overwhelms reality, I don't know, but it's hard right now. And it scares a lot of Americans. Nobody wants, well, I shouldn't say that. Rational people should not be arguing for

open border. You can't be a national law and have an open border. But you can recognize that the border can be less open by reform. But as we continue to have such a flood of unaccompanied minors, including parents who are bringing their children to the border and then staying on the Mexican side of the border to let their children cross. Doesn't that undermine the case for DACA and the Dreamers as well if we're just then incentivizing unaccompanied children to come? I don't think so. I think that it's like saying somebody who's been here for 10 years and has paid their taxes and is a good American shouldn't be given the opportunity to come out of the shadows. You know, I think one could argue any reform provides further incentive. But the question

is reform going to make our border policy more compassionate and more enforceable? And I haven't to think it would. But, yeah, no, look, they're all legitimate arguments, but what's the alternative? I mean, just let these kids who've been here for a long time and are contributing fear being kicked out to nowhere. I don't think that makes sense. And I think most Americans agree with that, you know. You'll be happy to hear I'm not paying attention to the polls much these days. Did you ever?

No, thankfully. A little rough exit, if you remember. How much of the problem on immigration specifically in terms of getting to a solution is because it's such a potent issue politically. For both sides. I think a lot. And so they'd rather have the issue than solve the problem. I think you're right, Steve. And, you know, no question.

It's like a lot of issues. You know, Social Security. Social Security should have been fixed. I mean, it's one of the great hoaxes to tell young Americans, please put money in the system. It'll be fine. And, you know, and guys my age are beneficiaries, but the people putting money in are likely not to see a dime or see some, but I put more money in. But it's a potent political issue. And I knew it was.

And hence, members of my own party said, we're not with you. And I said, why? Because we'll lose seats. I mean, that's the crux of the matter. I want to get back to, I have a question about one of the folks you profiled in the book, but I want to ask, follow up on that specifically, listening to President Biden's speech last night, he was, shall we say, aggressive, or ambitious with his spending proposals. Sure.

And during your eight years in office, we accumulated an additional $3.3 trillion in debt, roughly. And you got a lot of grief for that. even though, I mean, from people like me. Yeah, well, you probably didn't look at the debt-to-GDP ratios compared to previous presidents, but that's okay. I did. You were a little narrow-minded in those days. I did look at it, and I still criticized it. No, but, I mean, look, $3.3 trillion was a lot.

I mean, I think I thought it was wise and smart and necessary to try to reform Social Security. I'm glad Republicans in Congress in 2011 to 16 tried to reform Medicare and other entitlements. We're not going to solve the problem unless we as a country. address those things. But if you look at what President Biden proposed last night, we're talking about $6 trillion in new spending that he's proposed in his first 100 days. I mean, we passed practically fainted at the $3.3 trillion.

Yeah. Is this, what needs to happen? And where are Republicans on this? Yeah, well, so, you know, there's a school of thought that says debt doesn't matter. Well, your vice president at one point said deficits don't matter. Yeah, well, and money supply doesn't matter. And, you know, and it puzzles me to think about the lack of regard for inflation. And, you know, I remember 1978 and 79, double-digit inflation, double-digit unemployment, double-digit interest rates.

And so, you know, there's an economic theory out there that I don't understand. And I guess it's one of the blessings of being 74 years old. You know, maybe the chickens won't come home to roost until I'm long gone. But it's a, they've got to come home to roost. You got all this money floating around and debt. And it's, you know, it's going to be really problematic. It's, we were very conscious, by the, way, in spite of that loaded question, of spending money, the debt to GDP was, I think,

the lowest since Reagan, if I'm not mistaken, and the deficit of GDP was lower than everybody's, but Bill Clinton's. And I was conscious of it. And was, you know, I'm a supply cider and felt like cutting taxes would enhance economic growth. We had a few interruptions, such as huge financial meltdown. But, you know, that school of thought seems to be dissipating. And now, and I don't see how you can tax your way to prosperity. And, you know, we'll see. We'll see whether or the night is full package. Or spend. Yeah. Well, that's spend your way to prosperity and raise taxes to achieve the spending. Not long ago, I saw someone go through a sudden loss, and it was a stark reminder of how quickly life can change and why protect

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How does the 2016 election and Republican voters fit into this book's central thesis, which is, again, in at least one narrative of the 2016 election, exactly what they rejected. Yeah. You know, it's interesting. I didn't think about that. You know, my candidate didn't win. That would be Brother Jeb, who had a comprehensive plan. He had a comprehensive plan. And, you know, I didn't think about that from, you know, helping the party perspective so much, although I do. And first of all, it's not a moderate issue. I happen to believe it's a conservative issue. because inherent in treating each individual decently is the notion that government doesn't love. And it requires loving people to help people realize their potential.

But, you know, Steve's question was, is it too polarized to be a winning issue for anybody? And he may be right. I hope not. And part of the purpose is to try to just bring a different light. I mean, I was discouraged when I saw some of the language associated with immigrants and wanted to, you know, present a different side. And some of the stories in here are just unbelievable. I mean, Jean Larkin, you know, I mean, she sees her dad hatcheted death by Hutus. Her mother dies.

She's abused as a young teenager by Hutus. She has a foster father who brings her here, his family with her here that says he abused. uses her. And yet to hear her talk about forgiveness is unbelievably inspiring. I mean, and it's not fake forgiveness. It is a genuine love for mankind. And my point is that's the kind of person that'll make our society better. Yeah, sort of amazing she even survived reading the details of what she. Same with Gilbert. Yeah. Yes, the story in the gym. They burn the gym with him in it. Yeah, and his classmates, because they were Tutsis. Just.

And, you know, it's politics that it's worse. And when we talk about, when we look back at that genocide, it feels very relevant today as we look at the Uyghurs. Yeah. And that's the beauty of America. Take people like Gilbert, and he's just as equally American as you and I. Can I ask about Salim Osrawe? Yes, you can. So my first question about him is, is there a little bit of you in this picture?

Somebody accused me of that, and I said, look, Salim's a hell of a lot uglier than I. He was standing there, by the way. He's a cool guy. He employs about, I think he told me 3,000 people now. Yeah. And came with nothing. And he lives here in Dallas, got triplets and twins. Is that he escaped Peru?

Busy. Yeah, I mean, this is what was so interesting to me. I mean, we've spent some time talking about the nativism and sort of fear and hostility towards immigrants that we've seen. seen from the right. There's a different phenomenon, I think, happening on the left sometimes, and it involves this whole discussion of cultural appropriation. Here's a guy who comes from Lebanon. He starts something called Texas Day Brazil. These aren't his cultures. It's the kind of thing that only he could do in America. And yet, that kind of thing is now being frowned upon increasingly. Really? Yeah, on the left. There was a prominent chef. I'm totally out of

touch. I love that. There's a prominent chef who took a picture of Bebimbop, a popular Korean dish, and posted it and said, hey, this is great. She took untold amounts of grief for having done this and was accused of cultural appropriation because she wasn't Korean. Yeah. Does that – no, I mean, you know, look, I mean, I must confess what you – I'm kind of aware of the phenomena, but I don't pay attention to it. Maybe I should. Maybe it'd make me much more sense. I don't know.

Might be better not to. Yeah. Might better just pay. No, Salim, I didn't put him in there for that. I put him in there because the guy came with nothing from a war-torn country and worked hard and employs a lot of people. And the point is that immigrants add to our economic vitality because, you know, there's kind of unlimited horizons for them. Now, whether or not he, you know, whether or not it affects his restaurant, maybe it would if it's up east or something. I don't think he can be fine.

I mean, I would make the argument that. that it's a quintessentially American story, to me. But I think there are a growing number of people on the left who would say, no, maybe this isn't right. He shouldn't, he should pick and choose. That's their problem. Because, you know, it's kind of sad if that's the case. I mean, it's, you know, I've always said, you know, I'm for purity so long as I'm the judge. And there have been elements within the Republican Party now that have been.

in favor of, well, as they phrased it, Anglo-Saxon traditions being put into law. I'm curious whether there is a version of the Republican Party. If they followed that strain in three years or five years where you would say, I'm not a Republican. No, I'd say they're not going to be a party. I mean, that is, yeah, I mean, I read about that. And, you know, I'm saying to myself, wow, these people need to read my book. And, I mean, you know, it's like saying when I was running for governor of Texas, you'll never get any Latino votes because you're Republican. And I said, you watch.

And I worked hard. And the key thing was to let them know that I could hear their voice. I mean, democracy is great in that sense. And, you know, the idea of kind of saying you can only be a Republican if, then the ultimate extension of that is it ends up being a one-person party. But there are more of those people today than there were during the Republican Party. I hope not. Either that or they're louder, right? Many members of Congress, I mean, they were talking about starting a caucus.

Yeah, well, you know, it's, it, yeah, to me, that's basically says that we want to be extinct. We've seen other elements of that. Some of the same people were talking about starting the Anglo-Saxon caucus are the people who were hyping up the idea that the election was stolen from Joe Biden. Yeah. More than 50% of Republicans across the country think the election was stolen. Yeah, I'm not. No.

No. I guess I'm one of the other 50%. What? By the way, I'm still a Republican proudly to be a Republican. I think Republican will have a second chance to govern because I believe that the Biden administration is a uniting factor, and particularly on the fiscal side of things. So, you know, we'll see. It's a, but I know this, that if the Republican Party stands for exclusivity, you know, used to be country clubs now that it's, it's a white anglo-saxon Protestantism, then it's not going to win anything.

You think Republicans have credibility to go back to fiscal issues and to call for limited government? I mean, you were, the last four years happened, right? No question, yeah. Well, if they, you know, no, they're going to have to. unless, of course, the economic theory that I've just pooh-poohed ends up being reality. It's people I talk to who know something about it aren't just scratching their heads, you know. I mean, how can you print money and have explosive fiscal irresponsibility and not expect there to be inflation? And we've taken no inflation for granted, but inflation is a punitive tax on the elderly and the poor.

And it's, you know, we haven't had any. for a long period of time. So therefore, you know, it could end up being a shock to people. Part of the story of immigration in this country is tied up in the story of race and the history of race in this country. In the summer of 2016, you spoke at the eulogy of the police officers in Dallas who were killed. And you said, too often we judge other groups by their worst examples while judging

ourselves by our best intentions. Yeah. When you look at the George Floyd case and so many others from the last five years since you gave that eulogy, what grade do you give the country? The Floyd verdict causes me to give the grade, you know, A because I think the trial was fair. And justice was served. The question is, what grade do you give police people? And the answer to that is overall good, except police departments need to learn to weed out those who don't hold our fellow citizens

in the same regard as they hold themselves. And there's no question there needs to be police reform. But I think one of the lessons that people will learn over time is that there's no question there needs to be police. And so I'm, you know, I, again, I'm optimistic about the country's capacity to take on real issues. And there is a real issue in a police accountability. And But see, the thing after the riots at the Capitol that should be encouraging to people, although it's hard to kind of see beyond that moment, is that the institutions held. And the question is, will the institutions of justice hold and be fair?

And so far, I think that's been the case. Now, you know, we'll see these other cases that can be adjudicated. I mean, the truth of matters, there have been a lot of, you know, and you wonder how many. You wonder how many might have been exposed with the Internet. You know, how much of this might have been just common practice. And, you know, it feels to me that probably a lot more than we anticipate because there's a... Yeah. All right.

Last question. When Salim, who we spoke about earlier, who started the restaurant, came to this country, one of the first things he did is he celebrated his 14th birthday with a delicious meal at Louvre. Now, not everyone outside of Texas will know about Lubies, but I have so many fond childhood memories. I grew up in Forpin County outside of Houston. Yeah, you're Sugar Land? Richmond, Rosenberg. Yeah, sure.

Yeah. Outside Sugar Land. Like, keep going. Let me ask you this question. Did you load up on dessert? Jello. Obviously, the red jello. So that was my question to you. What is your go-to? Now, for those who don't know, Lubies is kind of a meat and three cafeteria place. Yeah, that's it. So, Mr. President, what is your Lubies? You go through the line. You're, you're pointing. that what you want? What do you get? Well, first of all, I went to Kincaid school for two years in Houston, and Buddy Luby was in my class. Oh, yeah. Oh, my goodness. A real celebrity.

Yeah, he was, except Luby's went bankrupt. Anyway, you know, I was a macaroni cheese guy, fried chicken, and, you know, jello was a little weak when it came to the sugar I needed, and so I'd go with, like, coconut cream pie. Oh, yeah, Lubies was good. Good call. And it was pretty cool that Salim went to Lubis. It felt like the most quintessential text and the thing. Yeah, well, he is one.

Yeah, I wish you could meet Salim. You'd be captivated by his enthusiasm. Plus, we could do all you can eat meat, which would be great for us. Which, by the way, last Thanksgiving, he delivered to the ranch a huge amount of his beef. And we fed the Secret Service, we fed the ranch foreman, we fed ourselves. If he wants to do that at the dispatch headquarters, we would be happy to take it. There you go. Where is dispatch headquarters?

We're in D.C. Nice. We're in downtown, a few blocks from your old house. There you go. Well, Mr. President, we so appreciate your time today. We appreciate the book, Out of Many, One, Portraits of America's Immigrants by George W. Bush. Thank you very much. I'm honored you paid attention to it.

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