The Dispatch Podcast - How MAGA Election Conspiracies Threaten Public Servants | Interview: Stephen Richer

Episode Date: July 8, 2024

Stephen Richer, the Maricopa County recorder—a public official responsible for recording public documents—joins Jamie to discuss the harassment campaign against him and his thoughts about the 2024 election. The Agenda: —What is a county recorder? —The “lynch” threat —Looking into 2020 fraud claims —Richer’s defamation lawsuit —Did Trump know the 2020 fraud claims were false? —What happens in 2024? —Being a part of Trump’s GOP The Dispatch Podcast is a production of The Dispatch, a digital media company covering politics, policy, and culture from a non-partisan, conservative perspective. To access all of The Dispatch’s offerings—including members-only newsletters, bonus podcast episodes, and weekly livestreams—click here. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Welcome to the Dispatch podcast. I'm Jamie Weinstein. My guest today is Stephen Richard. Stephen is the Maricopa County Recorder, that is a county in Arizona, an important county in Arizona. He was elected to that position in 2020. He has become perhaps, I don't know many recorders, but perhaps the most famous recorder, certainly in the country now, maybe ever, I don't know who else ever was in the position of recorder because he became an outspoken advocate or at least response to those who claimed the to that 2020 election was stolen in Arizona. A Republican himself, in fact, a Republican as we find out who voted for Trump in 2020, he, because of his role, researched what occurred and then stood on principle and was refusing to go along with what the party line was and said that

the election in Arizona was on the up and up. We get into that and his trials and tribulations with standing up against a loud chorus in his party, among other topics, including what will happen in Arizona at a very important state again in 2024 this election cycle. So without further ado, I give you Mr. Stephen Richard. Stephen Richard. Thank you very much for having me. Now, I have to be honest, Stephen, I didn't even know what a recorder was until I started following you. So not only are you the only recorder I've ever talked to, you're the only recorder I ever heard of,

And probably, and you can correct me, maybe the most famous elected recorder in the history of the country. But maybe just begin by telling us a little bit about who you are, what a recorder is, and kind of familiarize yourself with the listeners. Yeah. No, perfectly understandable. I won't take offense. I'm an attorney. I was a businessman. I was a policy junkie for a number of years.

I actually worked in Washington, D.C. at American Enterprise Institute, Washington Legal Foundation, Cato Institute, probably some organizations that are familiar to some of your listeners. But in 2020, I ran for Maricopa County Recorder. So Maricopa County is the seat of Phoenix, Arizona, surrounding Phoenix, Arizona, and is the largest county in Arizona. It's about 4.6 million people. It's the fourth largest county in the United States. and it's the second largest voting jurisdiction in the United States, so only behind Los Angeles

County. And the Maricopa County Recorder is responsible for recording public documents, so that's where it gets its name, voter registration and list maintenance, and then early voting, which makes up about 85% of the vote in Maricopa County. And of course, it's those later two components that have really brought it into the spotlight, especially considering where Arizona figures in in terms of political map and in this conversation we've been having about election administration and American democracy. And so I've taken some positions with little reservation. And I've been forceful about those. And so I think that's, what does Shakespeare say? Some men are born great. Some men are learned to be great. And some have it thrusts upon them or something like that.

Yes. I know that, know that quote well. And we're going to get into all that. But, Just so I understand, when you run for a quarter in Arizona, you run as a Republican or a Democrat, or is it a nonpartisan office? You ran as a Republican, I think, as I understood it. Correct. So it is a partisan office. So I run in a partisan primary, just like somebody running for state legislature, just like somebody running for United States House here in Arizona. I ran in the Republican primary, one in the 2020 Republican primary, and then I unseeded the incumbent. Long been Maricopa County reporter who was a Democrat who's actually now our Secretary of State.

And so I am running again as a Republican in the Republican prior year. Well, you know, the reason I have been following you for the last couple of years and have honestly respected you is that you, you have been very outspoken and vocal defending the integrity of the election process in Arizona, particularly as it relates to the 2020 election. But the reason you caught on my radar in this week, and the reason I've had you on, is I read a news article that the chair, I guess, of Arizona's delegates to the Republican Convention said this week on tape that if you were in the room that she was speaking to, I guess it was a bunch of Republicans, she would lynch you. Explain how we got to the point where you, a Republican activist, you a Republican, that there would be a Republican activist who would be a Republican activist who would be. calling for your lynch? Well, that's probably a broader sociological, cultural phenomenon that I'm really equipped to discuss. But in terms of my more parochial perspective on it, I would say, you know, I've been outspoken. I've been outspoken since about May of 2021 that these allegations concerning the 2020 election are completely without foundation. They're disrespectful to

the men and women who work this process, and they're harmful to our country's institutions, to our country's democracy, and they need to stop. And so I've been speaking out against that, and obviously, President Trump being the very dominant leader of the Republican Party, feels strongly to the contrary, and to be a person in good standing with President Trump, you have to toe the line on that, and I have done anything but. And so that has caused a rift between me and some of the members of my party for whom that is an unfordivable offense. You know, in some ways, people will read the comments or hear the comments that she said, and, you know, that's just preposterous, maybe even laugh them off. But my understanding,

is that there have been serious threats, not just from her, but against you and that you have had to have increased security. So just explain maybe since you started speaking out that the election was not stolen or rigged there, the type of threats that have been directed to you and your staff and the consequences of saying what you believe to be true. Regarding me specifically, the DOJ has made three arrests or threats to me. over the past year and a half. But what really gets me is the threats to ranking file election workers. So we've had to spend millions of dollars enhancing security, putting up additional gates,

bringing in security guards, putting in metal detectors, putting in additional cameras. And while it might be particularly acute in Maricopa County, this is by no means anomalous. I think that the bipartisan policy center recently reported that one out of every three election workers in the United States has either received a threat or is fearful of receiving a threat while administering his or her job. And so it's become baked into the culture and it's just really scary. And what is maybe if you're somebody who says, well, this was obvious hyperbole that this lady was using when she says the word lynch, you know, she's just really, you know, being outrageous for the purpose of being outrageous.

But it creates a permission structure, and it creates a permission structure for people who might be listening to that, who might not be as, who might not get the joke, who might think that that's something that they can do, or who might think that it's something that then they can directly message to an election worker or make a phone call, and that's not a healthy place to be. And so that's why I think it is incumbent upon leaders

to be a little more measured with what we say so that we don't create a provision structure for those who are listening. I think it's fair to say that your job entailed kind of researching once you, I mean, you weren't involved in the administration of the 2020 election. Yeah, no, I was a Republican candidate

who won on that same ballot. Yeah. But I was not in office. But you were somewhat responsible for looking into the allegations or had a role in that. It's not that you just say that the allegations have no merit

without looking into them. You had to actually do, I think you commissioned a study into it. Absolutely. We did additional reviews. We brought in additional technology companies. I spent the first six months of my office digging into the process and really taking seriously every single allegation that was leveled because these were coming from people that I worked alongside, that I campaigned alongside, that I probably voted very similarly to,

and many of whom had contributed in some capacity to my campaign. and so I was not dismissive by any stretch of the imagination, and I was genuinely thinking that all that was needed here was somebody to really dig in, somebody that they could trust, to really dig in, get answers to their questions, and then we'd feel better. And I guess I was sort of operating under that enlightenment understanding of the world where people have questions

and we come up with answers and then people are happy. And increasingly what I realized was we weren't looking for that. we were just looking for confirmation of our dissatisfaction with the results of the 2020 election. And that's something that's wholly different. And then it turned into something that I think was ugly. Well, I am actually, so when you were running in 2020, I mean, you couldn't have imagined that this would have been a controversial position that you were running to towards that this would be, or maybe you could.

But in my mind, I can't imagine that you thought this would. I mean, you didn't know that Arizona would be the epicenter of kind of the, the election conspiracy that had in the aftermath. These people that are mad at you now, were they your friends and were they supporting you? Were you close to these people? Were the activists that you campaigned with? Were you a Republican?

Did you vote for Trump in 2020? I mean, what was your orientation going into 2020? Yeah, I did vote for Trump in 2020. I was a good up and down the ticket Republican guy. I did campaign alongside a lot of those people. I think you do as a candidate swept it in a lot of R-R-R versus Team D sort of thing.

And so, yeah, I consider a lot of these people, my friend, and I certainly haven't gone out a way to end any of the friendships, but some of them have felt it necessary to end our friendship and relationship as a result of some of the things that I've said about the 2020 election and ensuing comments.

And so I think it's unfortunate. I don't celebrate any of that. But at the end of the day, I guess maybe I'm not a politician, but I'm somebody who really cherishes truth. And I can't run from that. I have access to it. And so I've made it my mission to try to explain as much as possible. And so I think what has really become the calling card of my office is that I think we've done more than about any jurisdiction in the United States to to open up the process, to give tours, to write articles, to do videos, to do live streams because I want to touch the people who are really just genuinely looking

for more information. And if that can be my contribution to the process, then I think that's something that I would be proud of after my four years of office. Well, I think it's pretty interesting. I think it's another example, and I think we saw this with some election officials in Georgia, where you had figures who were not never Trump or figures kind of like, me who voted for Donald Trump, who were then in positions of responsibility, who had to actually do research and follow the law. And they came to the opposite conclusion of activists who didn't have that responsibility, you know, weren't obligated by law to look into things and come to the conclusions based on law. I guess one question that pops up is that when you were elected,

did any of the allegations that were being thrown about, did they seem to have any merit? to you before you looked into them or, I mean, did you think that, you know, could this be stolen? Was it only after you did your research that you discovered that this was totally meritless? I was very skeptical of especially the most outlandish ones immediately. I mean, when we're talking about things like fractional voting was a thing, when we were talking about all the allegations concerning dominion, I was very, very skeptical. I'm not somebody who has the sort of the believer, conspiracy theorist gene in me by nature. I was very open to the idea that there were statutory violations that, you know, were maybe stepping into the gray area or maybe, you know,

you cured past the deadline or technical infractions along that. But just the way that election systems are built, I mean, we were talking about something that would have been, I mean, out of a James Bond plot in terms of stealing an election is just, like, stealing it, flipping it is just, it's enormous. And I found it very hard to believe that there wouldn't have been more of a smoking gun from all the people that were involved, more evidence, more just, you know, there are observers in the process. And so I found that hard to believe, but I also left room for human error,

technical error. And we all know that that happens. And I thought it was incumbent upon me to investigate all of those things and try to keep as open a mind out of respect for the people that were concerned about these things as possible. What's interesting is, I mean, you were running for re-election again. I think your primary is about a month away. And one of the reasons I also wanted to have you on is because I think you can provide insight to people like me who are not in Arizona to this very important state, again, with the upcoming election. It will be one of the handful of states that will matter and probably decide who the next president is. Obviously, if you're running, you think you have a chance of winning. I don't know what you think your odds are. But I guess

what I would kind of want to know in this primary coming up or within the Republican Party in Arizona, how would you break down like the percentage of people who are, you know, diehard election deniers who you know, are, you know, laughing at someone calling to lynch you or something like that. What percentage of Republicans are, you know, maybe not as activists there, but kind of go along to get along, you know, they're going to vote for the nominees and they're not really paying attention to some of the, maybe the, what I would call vile stuff happening in the name of some of the hardcore activists? And what percentage are kind of normal establishment figures that, you know, maybe are not even voting for Trump or never Trumpers, but still are

conservative Republican. What is the breakdown there for those of us outside of Arizona to understand the party there in the Republican Party? Yeah, I don't have the exact numbers on it, but I'll estimate, but I would say that the MAGA wing right now of the party has the reins in Arizona, at least according to the 2022 privaries. And so in Arizona in 2020, we had a number of statewide races and in the Republican primaries for Attorney General, for Secretary of State, and for Governor, and for United States Senate. The most maggot candidate, the candidate that received Donald Trump's endorsement, won in each of us. Now, each of them went on to lose in the general election, which is a whole, you know, additional conversation. But I would say

roughly a force really believe in, you know, the core theories about the stolen election. A force probably think that, you know, something happened. And I don't know which theory, but it didn't feel right to me and something happened. And I just sort of want to believe that because it's part of the tribe. So that gets you to 50%. I would say a force will, you know, are, you know, I vote, I vote Republican and, you know, take it or leave it sort of thing on the theories. And then I would say a fourth are, you know, gosh, we, like, enough. It's, it's, it's dumb, it's hurting. It's awful. It's time to move on. So, I mean, I guess, uh, you think that there's enough there for you to win? Or I mean, what do you think you're, I mean, can you win? If,

you know, if a lot of these people are, are, you know, inspired by a wing of the party that thinks you're of a devil in a certain way. Yeah. How do you win? How do you win a prime room? So there's no doubt that there's some headwinds. And if it was simply a referendum on, you know, the 2020 election, it would be potentially problematic.

But, you know, there's a lot that goes into a race besides that one issue. And I'd like to think that candidate quality, ability to raise funds, I've raised over $500,000 for this race. And that's a lot for this race. and I'll outraised my other opponents. There will be a lot of people who, quite frankly, I still won't know what the reporter does and will be voting simply based off of name ID.

I'll have about 350,000 voters in my primary, and a decent percentage of them will be voting off of very little information. And then I hope that there are some people who will say, you know what? I think he's overly zealous, and I think he's wrong on the 2020 election stuff. But I really appreciate sort of his approach to the office. I think he's a hard worker. I think he's a fundamentally decent man. He at least

speaks what's on his mind. And he is trying to answer questions. And when I write in with a question, he answers it. And, you know, he does never back down from that. And he'll show up to places even where he knows his opinion isn't terribly popular. And, you know, kudos to that. So I hope there will be some people on that. From the polling that we've got, it is a winnable race. I also, also, the other thing is, there are three candidates, and the other two candidates are people who are more in the, you know, either have strong doubts or the election was stolen lanes. And so that, that plays potentially to my advantage. Not long ago, I saw someone go through a sudden loss, and it was a stark reminder of how quickly life can change and why protecting the people you love is so important. Knowing you can take steps to help protect your loved ones and give them that extra layer. of security brings real peace of mind. The truth is the consequences of not having life insurance can be serious. That kind of financial strain on top of everything else is why life

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gives me great anguish um long time republican actually the first campaign i ever volunteered for was ironically the rudy juliani 2008 presidential campaign when i was a graduate student at university of chicago um and uh the world works in funny ways um because mr juliani is not at the top of my list for Republican figures these days. I don't, you know, I don't like talking about other races, just giving my role. Occasionally I slip into it, but there are some lines that I have, and so there's some personal pride, and some of these people have really made my life unpleasant. And part of the time I wish I had a little more Ted Cruz in me where you could insult my

wife and insult my father, and yet I'd still be completely spied, supporting you as the nominee. I guess I'm either a little more, I have not as thick skin as he has, or I'm not the politician that he has, but some of that stuff is like, makes it really hard for me to do what I have always done, which is support the Republican nominee and as I did in 2020. And so I really that that's not like the most direct answer, but this one's causing me anguish and I'm in a place where as just somebody who has his own personal pride, I can't simply just go down the line without thinking about it as I did before. I will tell you last night's debate though wasn't inspiring in terms of what's out there. And it didn't make me the most proud to be

an American last night, which is sad because I'm generally, generally pretty proud to be an American. I think your sentiments are pretty broadly shared, at least in parts of the country. I mentioned Kerry Lake, who's your Republican Senate candidate in Arizona. How is, well, yes, she is the presumed, I think, in many quarters. There is a, here's a sheriff in Pinell County who has he's a talented man and he's a good man. But most of the polls do suggest that Kerry Lake will be the Republican nominee for you at Center. Yes. So can you explain you have a defamation suit, I believe, against her? How did that come about and just kind of explain a little bit the details of that? Carrie Lake came on the political scene in either 20,

late 20, 21, and she hadn't been involved in politics before. And she had previously been sort of a, She'd been a popular newscaster here in Arizona with only a light involvement in politics. She had supported President Obama in 2016, but then she became a disciple of President Trump's and that she really bought into the stolen election theory and she really bought into President Trump and that she got into politics and she started getting involved in the Republican Party. President Trump noticed her and then he quickly endorsed her for her campaign for governor of Arizona. She became the nominee. Stolen elections were a cornerstone of her campaign.

And then she got through, she got through the primary, and she narrowly lost the general election to somebody that I think some people thought she could beat. And following that, she started making a whole bunch of allegations. And she filed some court cases, which is, of course, a perfectly acceptable thing to do following an election. She lost those. She lost on appeal. She lost on appeal again. She filed more.

She lost on those. But she would make some pretty wild allegations that were very specific, alleging that I had done particularly unlawful things that would have resulted in the most significant election crime in Arizona history, one of the most significant crimes in Arizona history. And she kept repeating those, repeating those, even after the court cases, and even into 2020 breach, and we were getting into February of 2023. March of 2023, April of 2023, I just said, enough. Like, this has to stop. And I kept waiting for her to stop. And then I just realized that this was her new thing. And it was just saying that

Stephen Richard injected 300,000 fraudulent ballots into the process. Stephen Richard manipulated tabulation equipment such that it would throw the race to the Democratic candidate. it. And I was seeing the downstream effects of that that were really ugly. And it was having other impacts on my life. And so eventually in Joel June of 2023, I said, I don't know, she's not stopping. So we're going to file this defamation suit. We've been very successful so far. We won on the motions to dismiss. And then she conceded liability. And so the only thing we left at this point is a trial on damages as to what extent she damaged. Have you met Carrie Lake at a curiosity? I have never had a one-on-one interaction with Carrie Lake. She was not

involved in the Republican Party prior to 2020. She was not involved in grassroots. She wasn't involved in stuff like Federalist Society or the Goldwater Institute. So we never interacted. and that I've only been in a room, the same room to my knowledge as for twice, once for some of her other litigation that she lost, and then once at like a gala thing. And so, no, I don't know for most of the Republican politicians in Arizona, I know, you know, in some capacity. You know, you don't know her personally,

but you know probably people that do know her and around her. Do you believe she's playing a character, or do you believe she's sincere in what she says? I get conflicting input. Some people tell me, the Carrie Lake I knew, the Carrie Lake I knew was fun, would go to drag shows, and was just like a good nature person who didn't, you know, they didn't seem like a conspiracy. And then I hear from some people who are like, well, if it's an act, she never drops it these days. And so I don't know. And I wouldn't be the best person to speculate as to that. I would say publicly, she certainly doesn't, she doesn't break character. So, you know, so you never met Carrie Lake, but how about Donald Trump?

Have you ever, did you ever meet Donald Trump during his campaign? Any of his campaigns? No, you know, on the 26th teen campaign, I was on the, I was a volunteer, nothing special, but I was a volunteer for the Carly Fehrina campaign that year. And I was very, very skeptical of Donald Trump's commitment to conservatism. I've been sort of a movement person, a person of ideas, and I thought that he didn't care at all about those things. And so I was hardly rushing over to that camp after the arena camp went down.

And no, I've never met him. He's commented on me a number of times now, but those haven't been accompanied by phone calls where we patched it out. I saw an interview where you said, I think the term was you believe he had ample knowledge that he did not win in Arizona. And obviously, just, I'm curious, I mean, you know the facts that he didn't win based on what you did research.

Are you really confident that he would be willing to take information that would convince him that he didn't win, or his mindset is such that he knew he didn't win, that his people told him that he didn't win? What makes you confident that he knew his state of mind? Because I think it will be key to some of these charges against him that he didn't win.

Well, he'd have to have a pretty impregnable mind to not know because he had his local counsel telling him. He had national counsel telling him. He had Bill Barr telling him. He had his national security advisors telling him. He had Chris Krebs telling him. He had to explain why other Republicans on the same ballot. one, he had to explain why after recounts and after hand count audits and after additional

testing and additional court cases. And so I guess in legal terms, we would say that should amount to constructive knowledge or recklessly proceeding and sort of burying your head in the sand. And but as to as to any personal conversations, you know, I don't know, the January 6th Commission would have much more, had much more insight on that than I would. But, you know, they were not, by the end, the Trump campaign was not alleging widespread fraud in some of their last litigation in 2020. They were trying to make some technical challenges to close the gap, the very small gap of 11,000 votes separating President Trump from then-candidate Biden. and they were doing it in a pretty responsible manner with the exception of the Cracken case

that was filed by Sidney Powell. And so, you know, to the extent that he got any input from his local council and national council, then you should have known what sort of, what they were alleging, at least. What do you think of, I mean, you, I think said you were a supporter of Rudy Giuliani's campaign at one point.

What do you think is motivations here? What do you think is going on with Rudy Giuliani? obviously you say that Donald Trump should have ample knowledge that he didn't win. Certainly Rudy Giuliani, who is probably closer to these lawyers here, should have the same knowledge. What do you think motivates him? What was, what, I mean, do you have any theories on what was going on with Rudy Giuliani and why he was so passionate in, you know, pursuing these election fraud cases? So I've been struck by the motivating factors of politicians, generally speaking.

And I grossly underestimated a few factors. The first of which is ability to stay elected. You just cannot underestimate that. And that whatever lines in the sand you might think politicians might have, they're almost always redrawing them or blurring them if necessary to get reelected. And I think that many of them realize that Donald Trump, is such a behemoth within the Republican Party politics

that going along with certain stuff is just necessary to staying in the game. And I think you see this with people like Ted Cruz, like Marco Rubio, like Mitch McConnell, and so, and then I think the other one is staying relevant. And I think that this might have factored in

significantly for Rudy Giuliani. I think that, you know, by all reports, his life had taken some turns that maybe were a shadow of his once former greatness and maybe that he felt that this was a way to step back into the spotlight and maybe was sort of almost so enamored with being the guy who one more time delivered for the country and delivered on the most significant electoral fraud in the history of the country that that was just so enticing that he sort of backended his way into that. And then, you know,

at some point I guess you just are too far in that you can't really get yourself out and and it becomes your color card and look he's probably he has his his crowd of admirers you know he had his birthday party in florida recently where you know he's he's lavish with praise and these sort of like overly made up younger women are sort of draped all over him and uh because he's almost like a cult leader in this in this movement and so I that's not really my speed but I can understand that that how that could be appealing to somebody. Yes he did have his birthday party where he had that and who was also served I think during his birthday party for was that the Arizona case I know for one of the one of the cases it was for Arizona and there's some

reports that the service processor maybe even like stayed to sing happy birthday or something with So let me close on these two questions here. First, what do you think happens in the 2024 election for the two kind of national ticket candidates, the Senate race and the presidential race? I think Donald Trump right now, I have no reason to think that the polls are wrong. I have no reason to think that last night reversed the course. And, you know, as hard as it is for me to process, I think that some of the things that are more maybe ethereal, like, well, I don't know, but democracy, rule of law are not front and center for a lot of voters. And so if you had to have me predict right now, I would say Donald Trump's are next president of the United States. And I think he wins Arizona as well, which I think is fundamentally a conservative state and has to have a reason to not vote for the Republican nominee.

Do you think Kerry Lake also wins? I don't, actually. I think that Donald Trump is so unique that he gets to play by his own set of rules and some of the things that he does that are just like endearing and like, oh, shocks, you know, that's just sort of President Trump haven't played as well for Carrie Lake. I think that she aggravated a lot of people in the 2022. race. And I think that, you know, the candidate that she's facing is certainly more vivacious than

President Biden. And the polling suggests that so. Now, I don't think it will be a blowout, as some of the polling has suggested. I think that all races here on the statewide level are going to be close. But yeah, this isn't anything profound. I would say I would go to the polling right now. and the polling suggests that as weird as it might seem to some people, there are going to be people who are going to vote for President Trump and then vote for Ruben Gallego or vote for President Trump and then not vote in the U.S. Senate race. But there's consistently a six to ten point gap

between those two candidates here in Arizona. And finally, Stephen, especially given you think Donald Trump will win in November, I wonder what you think about your political future, that even if you win the recorder race in November and Donald Trump wins, this is Donald Trump's Republican Party for the foreseeable future, what is Stephen Richards political outlook within Donald Trump's political party? Well, Stephen Richard's political perspective when I first ran for this was to the moon. Let's take it as far as we can.

I'd love to be one of the next rising stars within the Republican Party. Steven's political perspective right now, and I hate talking in third person, you put me into that. So, yeah, my political's perspective right now is day by day, and grateful that I have other opportunities in my life,

grateful that I've been given the opportunity to work on something as meaningful to this. But for me, more important than staying in the game of politics is staying in good, standing with my wife and with myself, and that means not crossing a few lines. And right now, the orthodoxy within the party, as it relates to my office, would require me to cross a few lines. And so it hasn't been a comfortable relationship over the past

three years that saddens me. I think it will be an uncomfortable relationship, and I don't think anyone will be tapping me to be the next sort of statewide Republican candidate if it remains Trump's party. But there are greater tragedies in life. And my worries would be for it's just been an ugly, an ugly time for the, for the country. And I just worry that we would be more ugliness. I worry that more norms would be broken. I worry that what has happened to election administration will happen soon to our judiciary and to our criminal justice system where it's just sort of like nobody believes in it, which is just, you know, we just dismiss it, we disrespect judges. And so I'm more worried for that than I am for my own personal

fortunes and I'm worried for my team as well. But that's kind of heavy for this morning. And so, you know, the United States has gone through some tough times. We're a great country. We're individually great. I think that we get caught up in some sort of mess, fervor, and hysteria at times. But I really wish we could just get back to basics. And, you know, to the point that we were talking about earlier, to a place where if somebody says, you know, I'm going to lynch something. whether or not you think it's you know a person's going to act on it or we just sort of say

hey that's not appropriate in polite society and we're better than that and we want to choose people who are leaders who don't encourage that but say and get that out of here and we've had plenty of those leaders in Arizona in the past and they're the leaders that really inspire me, people like John Kyle, John McCain, Jeff Blake, Doug Ducey here in Arizona. And personally, I look forward to when those leaders are leading Arizona again. Stephen Richard, thank you for joining the Dispatch Podcast. You know,