The Dispatch Podcast - Mark Leibovich Talks Thank You for Your Servitude

Episode Date: September 1, 2022

Steve is joined by Mark Leibovich to discuss his new book Thank You for Your Servitude: Donald Trump's Washington and the Price of Submission. How did the Republican Party get to its present predicament? Leibovich gives us his eyewitness account of how the former president transformed Washington, and a major American political party.   Show Notes: -Thank You for Your Servitude by Mark Leibovich -Leibovich’s page at The Atlantic Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Welcome to the Dispatch Podcast. I'm Steve Hayes. We're joined this week by Mark Leibovic, author of Thank You for Your Servitude, Donald Trump's Washington, and the Price of Submission. Great conversation with Mark about the book, about his reporting. We get into a question that we tackle quite a bit on this podcast. Why did the Republicans who have supported and enabled Donald Trump do what they have done? We get some very interesting answers from Mark through the course of this book. Mark is a staff writer with The Atlantic. He had a 2013 book called This Town, Two Parties and a Funeral, plus plenty of valet parking in America's Gilded Capital, which was a critical look at Washington, D.C. and how it operates, number one, New York Times bestseller. This book is a bestseller as well.

And at the end of the conversation, Mark and I get into football a little bit. The NFL. He wrote a book back in 2018 called Big Game, The NFL in Dangerous Times. A couple of fun stories from that. I hope you'll stick around. Mark, it's great to have you with us. I appreciate you joining us. Steve, it's great to be with you. Thanks for having me on. So regular listeners to this podcast know that one of our regular topics, something we have sought to explain repeatedly, something that either we bring up or comes up in the course of our normal conversations, is the willingness of Republicans over the past six or seven years to do just about anything in support of Donald Trump. And doing just about anything in public, when in private, they continue often to load the man and worry about this. damage he's doing to the country. You have written a book that basically seeks to demonstrate how this has happened and explain in a very careful, methodical, and I have to say highly

entertaining way, exactly what happened and why they do it. So let me start by just asking you directly, why do they do it? Oh, what a great question. I think it's very basic. I mean, I think a lot of it is just sort of the pathology of politics, which is cowardice in many ways, expediency in many ways. Just as Lindsay Graham says, if you don't want to be elected, you're in the wrong business. If you don't want to be reelected, you're in the wrong business. So, you know, part of it is they just want the job and they don't know any better. So they can't sort of think about what life would be like if they wound up on the wrong side of Donald Trump and he acted. his supporters and the base against, you know, these people who need Republican voters and need Donald Trump's supporters to stay in office. So part of it is just the practical thing. But it does go beyond that. It's a lot of it is just abject fear. And I think one of the things that Donald Trump ran on in 2016, which has proven to be true, is that politicians are feckless cowards. Now, he didn't say that explicitly, but he said it about a million different

ways and a million different words. And he said to me, I remember I spent time with him pretty early on, late in 2015, he said, you know, the reason I'm going to win this nomination is because I'm going to bring these people around. They're going to succumb to my will. And he said that, you know, again, quite transparently. And, you know, it sounded like brabado. It sounded like Trump just boasting like he does. But it's proven to be 100% true. I mean, basically, with a few exceptions. Everyone came around and they sort of wound up as paper tiger despite the sort of chest something that Marco Rubio and Ted Cruz and Lindsey Graham and the whole lot of them did during the primaries. They all basically became sycophants to Donald Trump, you know, to varying degrees.

And, you know, here we are six years later having the same conversation. Well, you started with Lindsey Graham. So I'll start with Lindsey Graham. If you're looking at case studies of how this happened and egregious examples of why this happened, Lindsay Graham has to be the first choice or one of the first choices. The other night, he appears on Fox and predicted or maybe threatened, depending on how you heard him, that there would be riots if Donald Trump is prosecuted for trying to steal the election. You spent a lot of time with Lindsay Graham, probably most of our listeners remember Graham warning in very stark terms in 2016 about the damage of the Republic that would come from

having Donald Trump as president. How did Lindsey Graham in particular go from those kinds of, you know, five alarm warnings to the sycophant that he's become? Yeah, I mean, Lindsey Graham is the sort of emblematic figure of this ilk of sycophant, right? I mean, just the degree to which he flipped 100. 80 degrees. But also, I mean, the fact that Lindsay Graham is one of these characters in politics, and we've always known them, who sort of exist as derivative characters. They're professional sidekicks. And Lindsey Graham always said, I like alpha dogs, right? And John McCain was always his alpha dog that he sort of latched on to, and he got sort of the derivative

thrill of John McCain being in these war zones and these sort of hot negotiations and being in these exciting rooms all over the world. And Lindsey Graham was his best friend. They were always just sort of, you know, they were together all the time. And then John McCain gets sick. He passes away. And Lindsey Graham, you know, basically traded him in for Donald Trump.

It's his new alpha dog. And it's a bizarre transition to go from someone who was just a picture of virtue in many circles, John McCain, to someone who just, first of all, despise John McCain. the feeling is 100% mutual, Donald Trump. And, like, Lindsay just loved being in the photo with the president of the United States. It's a real sort of psychic thrill he gets from being on the golf course, being seen as a confidant to the president of the United States. And when you are from South Carolina, which is a deep red state,

and you need the job to the degree that Lindsey Graham needs the job. I mean, the guy loves being a U.S. senator. I think he does not really want to think about life without being a U.S. senator. I mean, that's sort of a choice you make, and that's the price of submission. Yeah, I mean, it's funny to read the book and to read the quotes that you get from Lindsay Cran. Because I would say in some ways, and I guess I'm going to have sort of a grudging respect for this. He was more honest with you than most of these guys, right? I mean, he just like says it.

He does say. I agree with you. You read these quotes. I've got this, I mean, my book is, where I listened to the book, there are zero markings in it. Where I read it, it's just, I think I've got as many words as you do on the page in some cases. But you've got Lindsey Graham saying, in response to questions from you about this, he says, quote, I have never had that kind of influence before. To me, it's exciting. And then you ask him about his standing in South Carolina.

He says, I've never been more popular than I am right now in South Carolina. The people at home like what I'm doing with Trump. I mean, this is a guy who's just basically telling us. Like, yeah, I maybe really didn't believe the stuff that I seemed to believe so passionately. It's all about kind of being in the game and having influence and getting calls from the president. Yeah, it was great. I mean, I agree with you on the sort of grudging respect level. I mean, because he's such a thrill seeker.

I mean, it's like he's so, like, transparent about it. And look, in some ways, politics is about being starstruck. A lot of these guys at Root just think it's cool. And it is cool, I guess. I mean, to be called by the president, yeah, it's cool. You're not supposed to talk about it, I guess, the degree to which Lindsey Graham did, but he did. And, you know, he, like one of his colleagues, another senator said, you know, there's no one in this chamber who needs this job more than Lindsay does. You know, part of it is he doesn't have a life outside of politics, much.

He doesn't have a family, doesn't have a lot of hobbies, except for golf, which he gets to do with the president of the United States. But he also just, you know, he was very, very vocal with me about being a thrill seeker and saying that, like, I like being at the dice table. There's a real addictive quality to being in the middle of something that's exciting. He kind of compared it to an addiction and like kind of like a drug in some ways. And again, I think that's something that a lot of people, politicians can identify with, but not something a lot of them talk about is openly. And you, I mean, I like the, I like the way that you describe in the book your exchanges with Graham because you tell people sort of how you came to ask him the questions and then you

present the response. Were you surprised that he was as, as candid as he was? I mean, he seemed almost without shame. Like, if it were me, I would be ashamed, I would, I would be ashamed of the kinds of arguments that I'm making, like the, it's cool. factor that you mentioned. That's a theme in the book. Like, that's embarrassing if you're a senator, isn't it or no? You would think, but look at us. I mean, we're just a couple of hacks, right? We're just a couple of like ink-stained wretches doing a podcast. I mean, it's true. I mean, there was someone and I forgot who it was who just said recently. I mean, shamelessness is, you know, it's a superpower in some ways. And the thing about Lindsey Graham is he does give

away the game a little bit more openly than other people do. And I think, You know, Lindsey Graham is a funny guy. He's genuinely entertaining. And one of the things that, one of, part of his humor is that he says stuff that's pretty jarring. That's like partly just in its candor. In his stump speeches, like when he was running for president himself, I mean, nobody thought he had a prayer of winning the nomination, but you'd go to watch him

give a speech because it was genuinely entertaining. Genuinely. And, you know, he's a great country lawyer, I guess. I mean, you know, he's good on his feet and everything. So, I mean, yeah, I guess in some ways, maybe we're fan. boys now talking about like, wow, it's sort of fun to watch. But at the same time, again, I think in the center of it is a kind of nihilism, as a kind of cynicism, as a kind of emptiness that is really, really, you know, exactly the kind of cold kind of calculating way that someone who supports

Donald Trump and who has come to support Donald Trump, you know, is going to approach his career. And And I think that's obviously very depressing also. So the person who sort of leapt off the page, and you can obviously feel free to correct me if I'm over-reading this, but as something of a contrast to Lindsay Graham, in my view, is Marco Rubio. I mean, they started in the same place, deep skepticism of Trump. They end in the same place, almost knee-jerk defenders of Donald Trump. But whereas Graham would kind of walk you through it and he would spend time telling you like, well, this is what I'm doing, Mark. you know, sort of take it or leave it. I feel like Rubio never really addressed the turn in that explicit way. And in some ways, seems to try to pretend that he's the constant here.

Like, this is a through line. And, you know, hey, my, you know, so what if I gave, you know, I was at Marco Rubio's opening speech in Iowa in the 2016 campaign. I was covering it back for the weakly standard. And I think he spent the first 15 minutes of the speech, 10 to 15 minutes of speech, extolling the virtues of eliminating or cutting the corporate tax rates. Fair enough. I actually think that's good policy. But it's not Marco Rubio now the champion of blue-collar working class Republicans or Americans.

This was a totally different message, and he would have us believe it's all the same. Yes. That is a great point. I mean, Marco Rubio, I mean, you know, we've been around. both long enough to remember, you know, when he first ran in 2010 for Senate. I mean, he, first of all, he was an immensely talented, sort of, he was an immensely talented and compelling young conservative. I mean, his rap about, you know, being the son of Cuban immigrants and, you know, his parents sort of flight for freedom away from Castro. I mean, he told it in

the most really compelling Reagan-esque way that I thought was great. I thought, I mean, it just totally blue Charlie Christ who was the, you know, he was the frontrunner by far away, and it just sort of captured the imagination not only of primary voters down there, but also of like a lot of the sort of conservative, sort of like, I guess, in some ways the Tea Party conservative, but whatever the young future of conservatism ilk was of that era, I mean, Rubio really had. The movement conservative, I would say. He was an absolute movement conservative. of. And he, you know, he was, I guess, given some consideration to be Romney's vice president. And he had a moment. And I thought it was quite compelling at times in 2015 and 2016. Then he kind of went at it

with Trump. And finally, you know, he was like, you know, he regretted doing, you know, he made people jokes about, you know, you remember how all that went down. But Rubio never, you're right. I mean, he never really acknowledged that, look, I am trying to make this work. I mean, he said, I'm miserable in the Senate. I'm quitting the Senate. Then he reversed course and said, oh, I guess I need a parking space. I can't quit the Senate. So he might up running for Senate anyway.

And you're right. And what's interesting about Rubio, in contrast to Graham, is when you see Rubio defending Trump now, he always looks so miserable. There's a level of misery in Rubio's defenses, which are increasingly. increasingly half-hearted because, I mean, he knows what he's doing. He's smart, he's talented. Graham is more, again, more honest about it to a point where he kind of like says, look, I get the joke, I am the joke, and I'm not pretending otherwise. I mean, like you said, Rubio seems to still be pretending otherwise. And I think they all have these kind of schicks to some degree.

But Rubio makes it, there's something extremely painstaking about watching him try to pull it off. Yeah, you see him record these videos that he posts to Twitter or elsewhere. he's defensive about defending Trump. Like his whole tone is defensive as if he understands that some of us watching are thinking, Marco, come on, come on. Yes, absolutely. He has bigger, you know, frankly, he has bigger wishes than what I think he has become. Yeah, that's a very good, good way to put it.

You open the book at the Trump Hotel and we go back to the Trump Hotel again and again and again. And it sounds like you spent a fair amount of time at the Trump Hotel. Are you a regular? When you walked in, where did they do the norm? No, they didn't. But I was a little surprised. I actually, I assume that was being watched. I mean, they had, I mean, there was pretty tight security there. There were a lot of reporters who were banned. There were a lot of people who were banned. But no, they were always, look, it was a, I don't know if you ever been in there, but it was a very welcome addition to downtown. I mean, it was overpriced. But it was very, um, it was very, well run. And like I said in the book, it was a contrast to the owner's side hustle down the street,

which did not seem terribly well run. Which was the White House? Yeah, will you give our listeners a sort of a sense of how it came to be? Where did it lie in Washington, D.C.? Why did you think it was so important in telling your story? Yeah, I mean, basically the Trump Hotel for four years was the Republican Center of Washington. I mean, this was where you would go and a lot of reporters would hang out there to sort of grab a lot of White House people, a lot of administration people, a lot of sort of Trump adjacent figures. He's got a ton of hangers on from Rudy Giuliani on down, Roger Stone, go down the list. I mean, people who might want pardons, the whole gang. And then, you know, Republican congressmen and women would go after their Fox hits to sort of

commiserate about their day. And Trump himself would go in there, you know, a few dozen times at least um it was like his cheers it was like you know he was norm or he was like a regular and people would come in and they would greet him and he loved being in the middle of it he did a big applauded entrance and he always got a 40 ounce tomahawk steak shrimp cocktail french fries and chocolate cake for dessert same thing every single time um you know needed to be applauded on the way out no always a bucket of chilled diet coke because you know he's got the girlish figure to take care of you know diet coke always so um it was It was quite a scene. And look, I'm always partial to scenes. You can pick up stuff, especially when people have been drinking. It was sort of this weird carnival of, you know, people would just show up and want to be seen or want to hide, but they would just want to, it was just a safe space for a lot of Republicans in a time when it felt pretty precarious. And also, like, a lot of Trump people were not exactly beloved figures around Washington. And that was sort of their clubhouse. And so I

out there. And yeah, you could get a lot of work done. Can I ask you a reportorial aside? Sure. There was a lot of drinking, not by Trump, but by a lot of people around him, including Rudy Giuliani. Never. Never, never you. You mentioned having beers in there, I think, at several points in your, the carrot cake and beers a couple times at least. What's your, what's your policy? Do you have a, do you have a policy as you report? If you're, say, hanging out, at the bar at the Trump Hotel and you know, you come upon somebody who's a source or a would-be source who's sort of obviously inebriated? What do you do? You know, I don't want to quote anyone who is that an ebri. I mean, look, I mean, it's sort of a simple equation. I mean, you,

if you're interviewing someone, they know they're being able. I mean, I don't want to ambush someone. And, I mean, I can't think of any situations where I've gone up and like engaged someone in what seems like a social discussion and all of a sudden, like, are quoting them in somewhere. I mean, everyone who knew who was being interviewed knew they were being interviewed, you know, occasionally interviews would take place over drinks and, you know, I'm not, I'm not above that. And it's a social lubricant and, you know, it can help, you know, all kinds of sort of words flow and everything.

But no, I mean, it's, I sort of went into it as a, you know, as a reporter, I was going to observe things. But I didn't, I was, if people were being interviewed, they were being interviewed, they didn't know it. Right, right. Yeah, I mean, it was sort of a behind-the-scenes discussion that I think took place among lots of reporters, particularly, I think, with respect to Rudy Giuliani. I mean, it's been publicly reported that he's become a heavy drinker. You know, I think reporters knew to text or call him later in the day. And, you know, you were more likely to get a response, and you're more likely to get a response that was usable and made news if he did it. And I think

people did that. Yes. And, and yeah, Rudy should know, better. I mean, it's been around. I mean, but I don't know. Look, he's, he's got his own demons that he's responding to. But no, it was, like I said before, it was a great place to get stuff. Not long ago, I saw someone go through a sudden loss, and it was a stark reminder of how quickly life can change and why protecting the people you love is so important. Knowing you can take steps to help protect your loved ones and give them that extra layer of security brings real peace of mind. The truth is the consequences of not having life insurance can be serious. financial strain on top of everything else is why life insurance indeed matters. Ethos is an online

platform that makes getting life insurance fast and easy to protect your family's future in minutes, not months. Ethos keeps it simple. It's 100% online, no medical exam, just a few health questions. You can get a quote in as little as 10 minutes, same day coverage, and policies starting at about two bucks a day, build monthly, with options up to $3 million in coverage, with a 4.8 out of five-star rating on trust pilot and thousands of families already applying through ethos. It builds trust. Protect your family with life insurance from ethos. Get your free quote at ethos.com slash dispatch. That's ETHOS.com slash dispatch. Application times may vary. Rates may vary. So you wrote a book in 2013 called This Town. I imagine most of our listeners either read it or are familiar with it.

It was much Bally who, everybody read it, everybody talked about it. It was sort of an example of this town in the way that it was received, right? I would just say one of the best descriptions of modern Washington written in the best in the last 50 years. Just incredible. And it really captured Washington in the pre-Trump era. The innocent era. the innocent era in a way and yet it was a i think a very strong indictment of of that washington and how it operated and this is maybe a strange question for me to ask um but no apologies

um in a very broad way you could argue that you and trump start from the same premise when he starts to run for president washington's a phony place it's filled with all these loathsome characters they poorly served the country, you can't trust them, you know, a ton of bullshit. Capital of bullshit. Did you ever feel any kind of kind of kinship with Trump because you started from that same place? Kinship is too strong. However, I will say, and look, I don't for a second think that Trump read that book or had a dog-eared copy of that book, you know, at the ready at all times to sort of help him understand. and the Washington he was running against.

But I will say this. I mean, running against Washington is not something that Donald Trump invented. It's not something that Barack Obama invented. You know, everyone's always running against Washington, right? Ronald Reagan ran against Washington. John F. Kennedy ran against Washington. I mean, it goes way back. I think what Trump seized on correctly was a level of revulsion of the political class.

The political class made up of people who have been. in Washington forever, who have no intention of leaving, who, you know, they might have been voted out of office, but are still, you know, heading over to Kay Street to lobby with their colleagues from the other party that they used to fight with on crossfire or on TV or on, you know, on the floor of the House or the Senate with. So there was this sort of, as Tom Coburn, former late senator from Oklahoma Republican, very conservative, used to say, it's a permanent feudal class of the political world here in Washington. And what Trump did was he sort of took that caricature of the permanent Washington figure,

the kind of nerdish, the kind of fat and happy, kind of feckless, weak politician in a real kind of negative caricature that had never really been voiced before. And he made it the swamp. And again, the swamp is something, it's not his own term. I mean, that term's been out there for years. But Trump, again, he sort of, he ran against Washington in a way that was effective and palpable, much more so than I think anyone had done it before. And look, I mean, you know, the fat and happy class of Washington is there for the, there for the take.

And he, you know, he named it the way that no one else did. And I would argue that one of the sort of defining characteristics of his presidency is, that he came in, and this, again, is a familiar tale. He came in saying that he was going to take on this permanent Washington class and, in fact, contributed to it and enlarged it, and, you know, his people became, it became the swamp only swampier. Oh, yeah, he perfected the swamp. He didn't drain the swamp.

He perfected the swamp. I mean, like, Obama certainly, I mean, they went native too. I mean, like, all the, I mean, it happens with every administration, right? They sort of run against the swamp, and then they get here and they settle into the swamp like it's a warm bath. That was a quote from, I think it was Chris, it was, I'll think of the course of this interview, I think. But no, but so, but Trump, yeah, I mean, the definition of the swamp, or one of the central definitions of the swamp is cronyism, is just basically helping your friends and sort of feathering the nest of people who have connections. to the presidency and, you know, the idea that you could just sort of like basically shop around and get yourself a pardon by like saying nice things about the president on TV, I mean,

is a bizarre bit of swampiness. I mean, what I always thought, and this always like never got enough attention and I'm going to like voice it now and maybe it'll get a little more attention. But I remember during the January 6th commission, one of the hearings, there was a clip of Jared saying, well, you know, I couldn't I couldn't pay attention to what Pat Cipollone was saying. I thought he was just sour grapes. I was just mostly focused on getting the pardons done or something like that. So basically, I mean, this is obviously a horrific period in the history of Washington and in the country, but basically January 6th to January 20th was a horrible period. I mean, it was not a fun time to be in Washington. I mean, guardsmen in the streets. I mean, it was really

awful. No one knew what was going to happen. And, you know, Trump was just sitting around pardoning people, all of whom had connections to him. You know, remember Mark Rich, this guy that Bill Clinton pardoned in 2000 or right after he left office in 2001, and there was hell to pay for a number of weeks. I mean, Donald Trump was doing Mark Rich, like before breakfast, like 10 times every day. But what was interesting, and this always pissed me off because no one talked about it enough was that he didn't pardon a single person who was at the capital on January 6th. Now, should he have pardoned them? No, I don't think so. I mean, I think, you know, they did all kind of, I think they deserve what they got. But, you know, if Donald Trump really cared about

his supporters, he would have pardoned them too. I don't know. But to me, I think that's the swamp, though. They didn't have the connections. They didn't give him money. They didn't have lawyers. They weren't well connected. So to me, that's the swamp. Yeah, I mean, and there are there are these stories about people like Matt Schlapp who was charging, you know, three quarters of a million dollars or something to, to lobby on behalf of pardons, I think, unsuccessfully. Yes, that is the definition of the swamp right there. It's known.

I mean, this stuff is known. I mean, this is, again, I think one of these things that's hard to communicate beyond Washington. In Washington, we talked to one another. We've reported on this. In many cases, we know the people involved. We know what they were doing. We've seen their beach houses, but it's hard to get people to understand that who sort of aren't here

or are so predisposed to believing the best about Trump and his supporters. It's sort of hard to break through. And I want to ask about that. You spend some time in the book talking about the propensity of Trump supporters to talk about him as an honest broker, as a truth teller. You know, there are these popular flags that I see whenever I drive around the Midwest

when I'm back home. And they say something like, you know, no more bullshit Trump 2024. And you just think, I mean, the guy lied more as a president than any president we've ever had, regardless of party, and arguably more than all of his predecessors combined.

And yet he's seen as a truth teller by his supporters. Why is that? Oh, it's such a great paradox. I mean, it's a great question. And yeah, I mean, they saw authenticity in the most inauthentic person. Actually, I mean, I guess it's a different term. I mean, in some ways, Trump is very authentic because he, his demons are laid so bare. So you can sort of, he is someone who has allowed himself to be known very, very deeply and very vulnerably in a way. And I mean, in some ways, there's a parallel to Lindsay Graham and that they are both pretty transparent about the somewhat, the greatly dishonest game that they are playing. But

I also think that people underestimate the degree of contempt that people have, that Trump supporters have for those who hate Trump and by extension hate themselves. I think, I remember, I referenced this in the book. I mean, Charles Murray, the conservative writer, I mean, who wrote pretty controversial. They wrote the bell curve. He had this theory where the sort of murder weapon theory where he said, and I'm paraphrasing, but he basically said that after Trump won, he interviewed a bunch of Trump supporters. And what he found was that a lot of them didn't really have a lot of use for Donald Trump personally. They didn't want to spend any energy defending him. They didn't want their kids to grow up to be like Donald Trump.

But what was compelling about him is that he was their murder weapon. He's like, you know, all right, you know, he defeated all the people we hate. I mean, Hillary Clinton, who called us deplorable, you know, she gets to go home now. And she was humiliated by our guy. And to me, that was an interesting and astute point. And to some degree, and it's kind of sad to talk about, but politics today is as much who you hate as what you believe in. And, you know, Trump kind of mastered that dynamic in the way. Would you say that for most of his supporters, and you've interviewed a lot of his supporters

over the years, it's that they don't know that he's lying when he's lying, or that they know that he's lying and they don't care that he's lying or that they know that he's lying and they like that he's lying because everybody in Washington lies. Yeah, I think it's a combination of all three. I don't think anyone really likes to be lied to. I think, you know, to protect themselves from the reality. of being lied to, they tell other lies or make justification to rationalization and so forth. I mean, to me, that is, I mean, if I were, if I were a political strategist or a consultant or

something, I think one way that Trump is extremely vulnerable in a potential Republican primary is that he has a level of contempt for his own supporters, that his own supporters are not awake to, but could be awakened to more than they have been. I mean, I think even just the off the top of my head, I mean, the example I just gave about his own contempt or his indifference to the people who literally gave up their lives, or at least, you know, big part of their freedoms, you know, on behalf of him on January 6th. I mean, I think, you know, so I don't think that they are aware of the indifference and contempt that Trump might actually have for them. And I think someone in the Republican Party

should point it out more. But, you know, again, it's hard. I mean, yeah, what does that look like mechanically, I mean, I'm just trying to imagine. I agree with you entirely, by the way. I think that's, I think that's very smart. But, but, you know, the flip side of that is nobody, nobody likes being revealed as the con, right? I mean, like, oh, God, I'm no, I mean, I'm the mark, right? Yes, exactly. Yeah, I mean, I think one thing is, I mean, Trump has been, I mean, there are a lot of ways to do it. I mean, I think there, part of it is just politically. It's just like, look, by the way, you never got your wall. Obama built more wall. than this guy did. Okay. And the Mexicans didn't pay for it, by the way. Okay, so that's obvious. Okay. You wanted

infrastructure. Trump was talking about infrastructure. You got infrastructure. You can thank Biden for that. You know, he said Obamacare. It's the worst thing in the world. We're going to get rid of it. It's so easy on day one. You still got Obamacare. I mean, you said there is a political sort of policy way of going down the list of all the things he didn't deliver on. I mean, one of the central lies of like, oh, promises made, promises kept. he did not deliver except from the tax cut, which, you know, disproportionately benefited, you know, probably most of it, or a lot of his wealthy supporters, but also wasn't very popular at the time. So I don't know. I think that there are a lot of ways to do this, but you're right. It's a delicate thing. I mean, no one wants to be made to feel stupid or used or duped or what have you. Right. I wonder if that's the way to do it. I mean,

I've had conversations with people associated with, one of the presumptive Republican campaigns. And they have cited actually, I think, maybe in the same order, the exact same things that you just cited. And they make it, they frame it a little bit differently and maybe in a way that might leave, you know, erstwhile Trump supporters a bit more open to the argument because they frame it as a competence case rather than an honesty case. You know, like, look, Trump said he was going to do this.

These were good things to do. I basically agreed with him, but he didn't get this stuff done. And, you know, DeSantis could or something like that. DeSantis could. Yeah, I mean, the crime stuff, you know, Trump gives this speech on American carnage and he's going to restore America to open his presidency. And then this presidency ends with this example of American carnage. I mean, you can imagine the case. Yeah, it'll be interesting to see if Republican candidates do that.

I mean, it feels to me like, yeah, what do you, what do you see this going? I think, look, I would, I mean, I think a Republican could have, with the right level of credibility and the question is who is that, but could have a real field they're running against him based on his record, based purely on, like again, what we're saying, what stuff he didn't get done. Also, he was a loser for Republicans. You know, you know, Biden beat him. You know, how hard it is to lose to Brandon, everyone. You know, this guy lost to him. And then, you know, he goes, oh, no, you know, I didn't lose the election. And, you know, and then you can go down that rabbit hole. But, you know, he's the first president in a hundred years to lose the House, the Senate, and the White House in a single term. He's the first president in 150 years not to be invited to his successor's inauguration. He's the first president in history to lose job. I mean, you know, you can go, there are some pretty damning bullet points that you can, that you can use. I mean, you know, I guess Biden sort of used the jobs one a lot.

But Republican can use it too. I mean, you know, I mean, Republican, I mean, Trump had some excuses. I mean, the pandemic wasn't fun, but, you know, at the same time, I mean, quite a few Republican governors and Democratic governors benefited greatly from the pandemic politically. So, I don't know. I think there are a lot of ways to basically call Donald Trump a loser and, you know, get pretty frontal about it. Because I don't quite understand to this point the kid gloves or just the level of fear that his perspective opponents have of taking them on. I think this is the central question of the Republican primary. Who's going to be willing to actually make those attacks?

And the early indications, as you suggest, are that you have these people who want to run. By definition, if he runs, they'll be taking him on. But they want to run like Ted Cruz ran and Chris Christopher. All of these people who ran to be the guy to succeed if Donald Trump fails and hopefully with his blessing. And I would just say it's a delusional strategy. He's never going to get to the point where he says, yeah, I lost. Tough loss for me.

I liked this person instead. It's just never going to happen. Never. Never. It's preposterous. You're right. And I don't, I mean, what's interesting? I was thinking about this, Steve. I mean, so this last two weeks, I have once again heard this great dichotomy of Republicans bitching about Donald Trump. Can you say bitching on this by?

You can. Whatever. Okay. Bitching privately about him and saying, oh, my God, you know, Biden's still underwater popularity. and yet all we're talking about is the Mar-a-Lago thing, and Trump is posting all these crazy things every single day on truth social or whatever it is. And he's, you know, no one's talking about all the, you know,

inflation or crime or whatever. I mean, why isn't there a single Republican who was just telling him to shut up publicly? I mean, McConnell, obviously not because, you know, it's just going to, like, elevate their feud, right? DeSantis is too scared to do it. He doesn't want to do it. But someone who's been a reelect—

I mean, in a different world, Lindsey Graham could have been that person. He was just reelected two years ago. He's safe for another four years. He had some credibility, at least with independence and Democrats. He, you know, even in Trump world. But I don't know. I mean, Trump is doing a whole lot of bat for Republicans right now.

People have pissed off at him like they haven't known before. I just can't believe that just no one has. has spoken up in a pretty, like, kind of in-your-face kind of way. I just think it's a great opportunity for someone for the person. Well, and you've seen some people, I would, you know, I get frustrated with myself that I continue to be surprised by these things. You know, I was surprised after the FBI rate of Mar-a-Lago, which I do think raises all sorts of difficult questions.

It shouldn't be something that we should shrug off. We should want to know more about all of this. But I was surprised and disheartened at the number of Republicans and the kind of Republicans who in the immediate aftermath raced to say, this is obviously political, this is, you know, they probably planted evidence, just like making these wild, outlandish claims. Nobody could possibly know if that were true. Let's leave open the possibility that the FBI planted some stuff. The FBI did some pretty rotten things, frankly, during the early part of the Trump administration.

But what are they talking about? And I found myself in this moment continuing to be surprised. And not only, to go back to your point, not only did those people not speak out and say, God, you know, President Trump, please go back and stop this. They went and sort of egged him on and got his back and made arguments even beyond what he was making. Absolutely. And, and I mean, Kevin McCarthy, who we haven't really talked about, but who's, you know, he's a central character in the book. I mean, he was right front and center here. He said, you know, Merrick Garland, you know, clear your schedule. What was the quote? It was ridiculous. It was like, clear your schedule. I mean, sure, you know, Merrick Garland should have to answer for this. And it sounds like they've been pretty methodical in answering for this. But what's interesting is that when Kevin McCarthy takes the lead on this, and, you know, in a different world, someone of his stature and his leadership position, would stand back and say, look, it's an ongoing investigation. We don't comment on what the Justice Department. I mean, that world has passed.

That chip is still. But now the silence of Kevin McCarthy, subsequent to that, speaks volumes itself. I mean, once you, everyone makes a lot of noise initially, and then they all sort of collectively just clam up. Once more stuff comes out, creates a trickle effect. And it's a bad look, frankly, for a party that's trying to get, you know, one on the right side of like a guy who's obviously got some ongoing,

vulnerability here, but also, you know, wants to be seen as a law and order and, you know, tough on crime party. So I don't know. I don't, I don't think that this dynamic has been helpful to them at all. No. I mean, so let's talk about Kevin McCarthy return to the book for a little bit here. He, I mean, he is a central figure in the book. He's a central figure in these past six or seven years, you know, very much sort of along the lines of Marco Rubio, of Lindsey Graham, McCarthy played a really important role in the aftermath of January 6th at a time when I think Republicans were still figuring out, what do we do about this? What do we do about this? What do we do about what happened? What do we do about this guy? You had many Republicans

who are on record in favor of some kind of a commission or some kind of an investigation into what happened on January 6th. Some of them obviously as a Dodge, so they didn't have to vote for impeachment, but they said it. They were in public and they said it. Absolutely. And then he makes this trip to Mar-a-Lago. What happened there? Well, I mean, Kevin McCarthy is, he is someone that, this is no news to anyone, he wants to be Speaker of the House. And he knows that in order to be Speaker of the House, he needs the blessing of Donald

Trump and his supporters and his Trump supporting supporters, is Trump supporting caucus in the House of Representatives. And Kevin McCarthy has made the calculation that if he can be elected Speaker of the House, even for one term, it'll all be redeemed. It's like, I get to be Speaker Kevin McCarthy. It could be the most unpleasant two years of my life. You know, God knows what kind of hell Donald Trump's going to put me through and the Freedom Caucus is going to put me through. But, man, if I can just get speaker on my door, you know, if you're Speaker of the House, you could get the whole Baker's Field Airport. Like, I mean, Kevin McCarthy, Speaker Kevin McCarthy Airport.

I mean, Bill Thomas got a terminal at the base field airport. And Bill Thomas. And he was a big deal. He was a big deal. He was Kevin McCarthy's mentor, boss, and, you know, McCarthy won his seat. But, I mean, talk about like surpassing the mentor, right? You could get the whole airport where Bill Thomas has a terminal. But, no, I mean, McCarthy, he's a scared puppy.

I mean, he doesn't want to piss off Donald Trump. And, you know, he was one of the two. people, probably him and Mitch McConnell, who could have made it happen, could have really kind of bound together, taken a much more forceful public position and help the party move on from Trump, which it seemed certainly in those days of January that the majority of the party up there was ready to do. And then eight, nine days after inauguration day, Kevin McCarthy goes down to Mar-a-Lago very unexpectedly and just kisses the ring of Donald Trump, and Donald Trump immediately leaks it to the press and get helicopters hovering over, taking pictures.

And next thing you know, McConnell's asked a few weeks later, you know, we support the nominee in 2024, if it's Donald Trump, I go, absolutely all support the nominee. And he's back. And the new sort of defining mechanism of the Republican Party is how much do you love the disgraced former president and the narrative just flipped. And we were back to, you know, the same thing as it was before. And then you've got a chapter, you call it unraveling in the book that that I think is, I mean, it's a really important chapter. And it's a the period June through December of 2021 where there's sort of a consolidation like it's a return to the status quo ante but but even more so if that makes sense I mean you have this you have a story about Rick Scott going to see Donald Trump coming up with new and creative ways to the award to please the boss yeah what was the award and why did he give it well first of What was it? God, I should know. Champion of Freedom. Champion of Freedom Award, yes.

So Rick Scott, not to be outdone by Kevin McCarthy. An award with a long, long and storied history, right? Absolutely. And again, Barack Obama never was awarded the Champion of Freedom Award. I don't believe. Nobel, maybe. So, no, but Rick Scott was not going to be outdone by Kevin McCarthy going down and getting this great photo up.

Rick Scott, a couple of weeks later, coined, I mean, it's a brilliant award. I mean, I could, I shouldn't speak because I've never won the champion of the freedom award. But it's also actually, it's a lame award because it's like, it could fit in like your hand. But Donald Trump was so happy to receive it and they had this picture together and he won the champion of freedom award. Yeah, but that was like the new and creative way to sort of justify a trip to Mara Lago and, wow. Every bit as meaningful as if I were to say to you right now, Mark, I give you the champion of freedom award. It's the same thing, right? It would be.

It would be. I want a formal ceremony and a photo op to go with it. Now, this is interesting. This is a sidebar, but Mitt Romney told me, I remember I interviewed him after a couple of years. It was about a year and a half after he lost the 2012 election. It was like 2014. And he was kind of in the wilderness and we were up in New Hampshire. And he was putting together a swap meet where he was trying to get rid of like all of the awards

that he had been given as the Republican nominee as a sort of enticement to have him go to some dinner in something county Iowa. So they would give him the Chappaqua County whatever, Freedom Award, you know, which is a bust of Ronald Reagan or Abe Lincoln or something. And he had so many of these in a garage. And, you know, it's like if he were elected president, he'd have a museum to put this in or something or maybe, I don't know, but he was giving him away. And it was like an incredibly charming, like, story that he was in. Well, who wants my elephant purse or something like that? It was just a memory came to me, and because I'm on a podcast, I just decided to riff on it.

So anyway, I'll stop my riff now. No, no, we like riffs. Where is the Champion of Freedom Award right now? I guess that's where I'm going to. That's a real question. That is a real question. Maybe it was in one of those boxes. What's the psychology?

First, tell me if you agree with this, and if you do, then what's the psychology? Is it the case that when these Republicans, Republicans debase themselves in order to support Trump, to show their public support of Trump. I mean, champion of freedom, that's not that big a deal of sort of silly. But, you know, some of the things that you recount in a lot of things that you recount in the book, but some of the things that we've discussed with Lindsey Graham, sort of, you know, people should be ashamed of this behavior. People, it's really self-debasing.

They come out of that. And then on the other side, they end up even more aggressive. defenders of whatever the next misdeed is. Is that your experience? And if that's true, why is that true? I think they work really. They have to work progressively hard to justify themselves. And, you know, they wind up sounding more self-righteous than they might think.

They want to be seen as someone who can explain what they're doing. I mean, Rubio, again, we talked about him earlier. but he's kind of a classic case who's someone who just digs in deeper and deeper and deeper. And, you know, he's, again, he's a very smooth talker, but he doesn't realize how dumb he sounds in some ways. I mean, I remember, I think like February of 2021, he was asked about, he was defending the insurrection. He was defending like the January 6th riot, he was saying, look, I mean, Donald Trump did a lot of unpeaceful events. I mean, a lot of peaceful events like went off totally without a hitch. There were no violence.

There were no deaths or anything like that. And it wound up, like, being played, and I think correctly because this is what he was saying. He was like, hey, Donald Trump never gets credit for all of those nonviolent rallies that he presided over. You know, why does the media only focus on the negative, right? And again, I mean, this is Rubio sounding all self-righteous, but they just make it seem sillier and sillier. But again, Rubio is very compelling when he makes such a dumb point. But it's, again, it's depressing. And look, it gets harder and harder to justify.

you know, the deal that you make. And look, I'll say this. I mean, Liz Cheney just lost her race, right? Does she seem like she has a lot of self-doubt these days? I mean, no. I mean, there's like a, I wouldn't say exhilaration. I don't think she's happy about losing. But I'm always struck by the contrast between the level of freedom of sort of movement that she has

in her sort of psyche than others like Elise Daphonic or Kevin McCarthy do when you hear them thought. Yeah, I mean, it's an interesting kind of freedom. I would say different kinds of freedom. I mean, I believe her. Nobody is more convincing when she says she sleeps well at night than this journey. When she says that, you believe her. She's doing what she, you know, she gave up her career to do this thing. She's doing the thing. And I think she feels good about it. Elis DeFonic is another nice, nice contrast. Who's done the opposite. I mean, I think most of the things that, she's done since she became an aggressive Trump defender, or the opposite of what everybody who knew her thought she would do. On the other hand, and you made allusions to this, both in the Rubio answer and earlier, you know, Liz Cheney couldn't campaign in Wyoming, in part because there were actual physical threats. Absolutely.

At least Stefanik doesn't have that problem. I know some of the other impeachers who decided not to run for re-election, in part because of concerns about physical safety for them and for their families. Big picture question. I need to ask you a couple football questions, so I can't promise you that this will be the last question. That's fine. Big picture question on this book, where does this all go? How does this end for Republicans? And how does this end for the country?

This was a hilarious book. It was a thoroughly enjoyable read, and it was also totally depressing. I get that a lot. Yeah, it's like, this is the most depressing book I've ever read, but it was a fun beach read. Right. I'll put that on the paper. Yeah, it's a bizarre line you walk. I mean, I would say this.

I mean, everything you just said about the threat of physical violence and, you know, death threats and all that, I mean, it's 100% true. I mean, it's also the dictionary definition of authority. It's it's politics by intimidation. It's it's, you know, there's nothing persuasive about it. I mean, the persuasive is it's a brute force, right? It's, you're not debating anything. You're not trying to talk someone into someone. You're not trying to politic someone. I mean, there was this piece in the Atlantic by Tim Alberta, who, you know, I know, I admire. I, too. I mean, he was a, I was on Peter Meyer, who is one of the 10 impeachment, Republicans in the House who voted to impeach. And he talked about a lot of the colleagues he had who basically said, well, of course we would vote to impeach or we would vote for Biden certification because that's what we always do or that's what anyone would do, but we're afraid of our, for our safety. We're getting all these threats and my family is scared and I can't put my family a risk. So therefore, I have to vote against certification and I would never think to vote for impeachment. And you can say on one hand, oh, that's cowardly.

And on the other hand, you can say, okay, well, they're worried about their family. family, so they need to do what they got to do, and, you know, whatever. But whatever judgment you want to impose, you can put on that. But again, that's, that's, you know, that's thuggishness. That is not the kind of politics we want. I mean, I tend not to be one of these civil war people. I mean, I don't know how that would work in a practical sense, except for this. I mean, I don't think all these threats are empty threats. I mean, I think there are a lot of extremely agitated people out there. Many of them arm, many of them with means and with, you know, great delusions of grandeur and, and, you know, are not terribly well informed and are desperate enough to do something really, really tragic.

And, you know, we've seen variations of it and I suspect we'll see them again. And hopefully it doesn't rise to a level of something that is a regular thing. But I don't know. I mean, I think anyone who's not nervous now is not paying attention. Yeah. I agree. It's something that I tend not to be a civil war person either, which the fact that you and I both felt the need to declare that sort of tells us something about the moment. But I think some, I think we're almost certain to see some kind of assassination within the

next year or two. And you worry, speaking of unraveling, you worry about whatever side it's on, however, whatever the backstory is, you worry about that as a flashpoint for something. Absolutely. And look, I mean, Gabby Giffords was nearly assassinated. Steve Scalise was nearly assassinated. I mean, January 6th happened. I mean, Mike Pence, I mean, who knows what would have happened if they had gotten to him. I mean, this is, these are not hypothetical. I mean, this came really close to happening. And, you know, the truly chilling thing is for me. And, you know, again, we've been talking about Republicans mainly, but I don't think Trump takes serious. I don't think, I mean, Trump has not hesitated in using the threat of violence, or at least inciting his supporters. You know,

he's not hesitated to do that. And I also don't, I think he would probably be forgiven by a large part of his base. I mean, what if my, I mean, this is not a fun thought exercise, but what if Mike Pence, what if something terrible had happened to him? I mean, would Trump pay a price? Would he still be the front runner? I don't know. Again, not fun things to think about or talk about, but, you know, not that far removed from reality. Yeah, would Republican leaders at that point actually start calling him out or would they hope that he fades away? One would think. Yeah, I mean, here's that. He's not going to fade away. He is not going to fade away. And look, I mean, you know, Biden could beat him again or whoever, you know, runs could beat him again.

But the fact that Republicans haven't moved on for him or even tried to move on for him or tried to call him out to this point is as chilling, if not more so, than a lot of the stuff that's actually happened. With Amex Platinum, access to exclusive Amex pre-sale tickets can score you a spot track side.

So being a fan for life turns into the trip of a lifetime. That's the powerful backing of Amex. Presale tickets for future events subject to availability and varied by race. Turns and conditions apply. Learn more at Amex. Let's close with a couple quick questions about football. You are a big football fan or a big Patriots fan.

You wrote a book that was sort of a tour to force. I imagine it was something of a break from covering politics and all of the stuff that you're now writing about again. It was, yeah, it was such a joy. I miss writing about football. You know, I was, I mean, I spent the first two years of the Trump years. essentially writing about the NFL, which was a different kind of spectacle. It was a different kind of reality TV to some degree. I mean, Trump was, you know, it was like celebrity. It was

gladi, I mean, it was tribalism. It had a lot of the same characteristics. But, man, I love football. I love writing about it. I mean, it's got all kinds of problems and complications and with cognitive dissonance around watching it. But it was a great way to sort of experience America at a moment when I think the political experience of America was not a lot of fun. So, yeah, I miss writing about it. I'm looking at you. Our listeners obviously can't see this, but over your right shoulder, you've got a picture of Tom Brady with his arms pointed skyward.

I think that was after he won a Super Bowl. That was, okay, so this is the over, again, if people could see this, over my whatever shoulder, my right shoulder is, yeah, Tom Brady, it's on a, cover the New York Times magazine, I wrote a cover story of him that I basically followed him around for the 2014-2015 series, which ended in the deflategate monstrosity, which ended in him winning that Super Bowl against Seattle where they had a last second interception in the end zone by Malcolm Butler, great ending. Yes, yes. You were a Patriots fan. But this is like, I've been in journalism for almost 30 years. This is the only thing I've ever framed. So my cover story on

Tom Brady was the only thing I've ever framed. And also, I did a book event in San Francisco and I invited Tom's parents who are the greatest people in the world. And they showed up at my book event to support me and they're great, great people. And, you know, Tom himself is dead to me because he signed with another team. But that was my very next question. Yeah, that's been tough. I wish he were still ours, but, you know, I wish him the best. But now, his parents are great. But I, yeah, so, yeah, they've given me some good years. And I know that, you know, everyone loves the Patriots and their fans.

Of course. Of course. But I will say this, and this is not a pander. I went to Lambo. There was a chapter in the book at Lambo. I think it was, I want to say it was early 2016, maybe, or maybe 2015. It was, I went to a playoff game. They beat the Giants in the, I think, wild card round of the playoffs.

It was like five degrees. It was right after the election. So this was, I want to say, early January of 2017. And I remember, because whatever county Green Bay is in, it was pretty 50-50. Brown, Hillary and Trump. Yeah, it was really close county. But, man, was that a united area? It was such a positive experience.

I had been, I remember that game well. I have a picture of my. I think, yeah, I think it was like January 16th or 17th of that year. My daughter, as I recall, was five days old. She was wearing a Packer onesies sitting on my lap, watching that game. It was a great experience. Well, I have an experience watching the Patriots. Unfortunately, the outcome wasn't as positive as your experience watching the Packers.

I was at the, I believe it was the 2007 Super Bowl, where David Tyree of the New York Giants, caught that spectacular catch in Arizona on his helmet I was in Arizona so this is I shouldn't admit this I'm not superstitious I'm not a conspiracy theorist this is as close as I come uh Packers the previous year I think had gone 15 and one if memory serves and I was pretty confident they were going to be in the Super Bowl so the beginning of the year I put my name in I was I was writing for the weekly standard at the time I put my name in for an NFL press pass to go to the Super Bowl. Not really any reason for me to go to the Super Bowl to cover the Super Bowl.

None of my editors had said, you really need to go to the Super Bowl in six months because it was purely an attempt to get a ticket to the Super Bowl to watch the Packers. So I go, or I get the press pass, and I'm shocked that I get the press pass. But I'd written some about football. I'd go to Packers' training camps, training camps.

And then Packers lost. They did. To the Giants, I believe. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Farve through, didn't he throw an intercept? He did. It was an upset. I mean, it was that limbo.

It was. And it looked like Farv just didn't want to be in the cold anymore because it was so, so chilly. It was too cold. And people underestimate, you know, the effect, even for a Green Bay Packer, like Brett Farb, who should be used to it. If you're like an old man or like over 40, whatever he was, and you don't want to be out in the cold. I mean, it's easier when you're 24. I don't care who you're playing for. Right.

Right. And this was Brett. I mean, look, Brett Farv had a whole career of just chucking it up. But there were a couple times that he just sort of threw it and you thought, oh, that's not going to work. Anyway, I went to the, I went to the, I had the press pass. So I'm like, yeah, I'll go to the game, took my wife. We had a weekend in Arizona. It was a wonderful time. I go to the game. I wasn't really behaving like a reporter. No, it's fun. I saw, I saw Sean Payton, who I think was, was then just newly with the same. I think he would have left the Cowboys. I saw him in line to get a beer. So I asked him some questions about politics and, you know,

sort of pretended to be a reporter. That was as much reporting as I did. So the game ends on this incredible catch. David Tyree makes this catch off. How about people can remember it? I won't make you relive it. And I go from the press. It wasn't a press box.

They had just sort of blocked off a number of seats in, in the stadium where they, trsat us and gave us platforms to use our laptops, which I, of course, didn't bring to the game. No, of course. And I was walking to the press elevator and somehow got swept up with the Manning family. They were right behind me. I mean, excuse me, they were right in front of me. I was right behind them. And the elevator opened.

They all sort of rushed on. I looked around and kind of rushed on to, got on the elevator with, The Manning family went down below the stadium and nobody stopped me. So I just kept walking. I get to the Patriots section, like their locker room, the path between their locker room and the buses. Yeah. Oh, my gosh. And I just parked myself in this corner.

And nobody said anything to me. And I just observed for like an hour. And it was absolutely fascinating. I watched Bill Belichick, who was one of the first people. out of the locker room and to the buses. He took a seat in the front of the bus. I mean, you can imagine. It's just a crushing moment for a guy who's used to having success.

Nobody talked to him. I think for 45 minutes, nobody said a word to him. Yeah. They haven't spoken to him since. Maybe not. No, that was an epic game. I mean, oh, that's amazing, though. I mean, that's a great experience.

I did, I mean, I had a few similar things when I was writing the book, I would get a press bash, and I wasn't on a daily deadline, so, like, everyone hated me. But, you know, I was, but, you know, you just sort of park yourself places. And, you know, for a Super Bowl, I mean, it's pretty wall-to-wall, either family or celebrity. There's a pretty good chance you're going to be close to someone that either you recognize or who's there for a reason other than, you know, they waited online for two weeks. I mean, you know, there's a lot of brushes with, there's a lot of opportunities for what you just described. and yeah I miss that serendipity and you know look it's football like I mean it's a spectacle and it's a game and I don't know I look that game was dreadful Brady actually said that that was the one game I mean he would probably trade his all of his rings from that ring if he had won that right I don't know he actually said something to that effect I mean can imagine being on an unbeaten team I mean you know the dolphins of 72 have that but I mean like 18 and oh or 19 just just Dominant.

Yeah, although I love the idea of like the Giants team. I mean, like I hate to have lost, but it's like, what a great little story. It's a great story. It was a great game. It wasn't, I mean, it was something, it was a great underdog. I mean, you can step back and sort of see, like, you witnessed like a truly, I think, top five unforgettable game. Yeah, for sure.

It was great. It was incredible. It was incredible. It probably took you almost these full 20 years to see it as a story rather than a Tragedy. I did. I mean, it was, yeah, it was, I don't know, for some reason, it was devastating, but it was, but it was the right kind of devastating. Yeah. As opposed to all the cheating scandals, which we won't talk about. We don't need to get into that. I had, there's a path before me. I could ask you a very heavy question about football, and I'm going to just set that aside and ask you, are the Patriots going to be good this year? And what are you looking forward to, uh, they've had a rough preseason. Certainly a lot of, yeah, they've had a rough preseason. They don't look. good at all. I mean, you know, I haven't watching, I mean, I haven't been scouting them that

closely, but they seem to have some real issues on offense and, you know, their longtime offensive coordinator, Josh McDaniel left to coach the Raiders and, you know, Mack Jones, who's a young quarterback, seems to really miss him. And they don't seem to be a well-oiled machine. But, you know, it's like you can't, I mean, it's preseason. So what do I know? I'm hoping for the best. I just, it'll be nice to have like something to watch on Sundays. And, you know, I'm, I look, I should, again, like I said before, football is problematic, but it's not going to stop me from watching. Right, right, exactly. Well, I mean, if history's, recent history is any guy, we should not bet against the Patriots.

You shouldn't, although I was, I was always more of a Brady guy than a Belichick guy. I mean, I think Tom, I mean, I think he should have retired, but I think he's magic. I just, I know he's a complicated guy. and I have no idea of what's up with him now and why he took that weird time off. But I don't know. I miss having him on my side. I like this answer in the press conference.

Tom Brady has taken a bunch of time. 11 days off from training camp right before the season. This is not something that's common for those of you who aren't football fans and are still listening. And Brady gets asked about it in a press conference and he says something to be a fact of, look, I'm a 45-year-old man. We've all got personal stuff. We've all got stuff going on.

I didn't say stuff either. Yeah, it was a great, it was a very non-Bready-like answer, but it was 100% true. I mean, it was, I mean, look, obviously, if you're 25 years old, you got stuff going on too, but it's different kinds of stuff. And, yeah, so yeah, life's complicated. So you learn that more and more as you get older. Mark, thanks so much for taking the time to do this. This was a terrific read, as I say, hilarious, depressing, thoroughly engrossing, all of the above.

It's the writing that we all have come to expect from you. So thank you for doing the book. Thank you for taking the time to talk to us about it. You're awesome. Thanks for having me on, Steve. This was really fun and go back. This episode is brought to you by Squarespace. Squarespace is the platform that helps you create a polished professional home online.

Whether you're building a site for your business, your writing, or a new project, Squarespace brings everything together in one place. With Squarespace's cutting-edge design tools, you can launch a website that looks sharp from day one. Use one of their award-winning templates or try the new Blueprint AI, which tailors a site for you based on your goals and style. It's quick, intuitive, and requires zero coding experience. You can also tap into built-in analytics and see who's engaging with your site and email campaigns to stay connected with subscribers or clients. And Squarespace goes beyond design. You can offer services, book appointments, and receive payments directly through your site. It's a single hub for managing your work and reaching your audience, with a single hub for managing your work.

without having to piece together a bunch of different tools. All seamlessly integrated. Go to Squarespace.com slash dispatch for a free trial. And when you're ready to launch, use offer code dispatch to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain.