The Dispatch Podcast - Proto-Candidate Mike Pence

Episode Date: April 26, 2023

Fresh off the Federalist Society stage, former Vice President Mike Pence sits with Steve and Sarah to talk about his record on abortion, entitlement reform, and the evolution of the GOP under his former boss. The three debate policy issues with this non-candidate. Show Notes: -WATCH: full interview on The Dispatch Podcasts on YouTube -Kentucky voters reject constitutional amendment on abortion -Trump Presidency: A Final Assessment of the Trump Presidency -Marlon Bundo's Day in the Life of the Vice President -So Help Me God by Mike Pence Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Visit BMO.com slash ViPorter to learn more. All right, welcome to the dispatch podcast. I am here with Steve Hayes, and we are talking to Vice President Mike Pence. Also, former governor, former congressmen. There's a lot of ground we're going to have to cover if we're going to get through all of your time in public service. Also the author of the new book, So Help Me God, which if you're watching this video, you can see.

But if you're not, it's available on Amazon and other places, I assume. It is. Thank you, Sarah. Thank you, Steve. We're here today. We're at the Mayflower Hotel in downtown Washington, D.C. You were here speaking at the Federalist Society. And I wanted to sort of pick up where that conversation left off a little bit.

Because part of the rift that we've seen within the conservative right has really been a discussion between, process and outcome. And so for a long time, especially the legal conservative movement was about process. That's what originalism is. That's what textualism is. And yet, we've seen a lot of complaints of late,

you think the boss-stock decision or others, that in fact the process didn't lead to the right outcome. And so maybe process isn't what matters, maybe outcome what matters. And I've seen some of that, I think, mirrored in the larger rifts and fights going on in the Republican Party. I wondered what you thought about process versus outcome.

Which one's more important? Well, I've never heard it really put that way, but it's, I may use that going forward because it sounds very intelligent, Sarah. It really does. Look, I think one of the things that has contributed to the greatness of this country is our adherence to the written constitution of the United States. It's one of the reasons why I love the Federalist Society. It was minted a few decades ago by men and women that said,

we need voices in the legal community who are going to defend the structure and the principles of the Constitution. And the whole idea of a strict construction of the Constitution is don't look at outcomes. Just apply what the Constitution says to the facts in that moment. And I still believe that's the way forward. And frankly, I think it's a way forward for unity in our country. when a time when our politics is more divided than ever before i think we have an opportunity to hew back to our roots to the written constitution to the principles of limited government

state-based innovation and reform all the liberties in the bill of rights and and say to the american people here's here's what we've all agreed to through the generations here's what generations of americans have fought to defend uh in and uh and and and many at the cost of their very lives. And so let's stay here. Let's work here. If you want to amend the Constitution, amend the Constitution. But now that we have a majority on the Supreme Court that I have great confidence will

continue to hew to the Constitution as written, I think we have an opportunity to meet as a country there again. All right. Well, let's talk about one of the areas where process and outcome came together for conservatives, the aftermath of the Dobbs ruling that overturned Roe v. Wade. Nikki Haley, who has announced for president, gave a speech today, in fact, that's Tuesday. I don't quite know what day of the week it is,

but I think it's Tuesday still. And there was some confusion, actually, on her answer of what she supported in terms of federal legislation, how many weeks, not a lot of clarity there, at least coming out of it. Tim Scott, when he announced his exploratory committee, similar situation came out with a little more confusion. Your position on this has actually been remarkably consistent. Not a lot of confusion about where Mike Pence stands.

Thank you. It's interesting that where I think a lot of the Republican Party in advocating for overturning Roe v. Wade said, this is something that should be left to the states. That's never been your position. Well, I'm pro-life. I don't apologize for it. I believe that they're restoring the same.

of life to the center of American law has been the calling of my life. It's what brought us into public life, brought us into the Congress. I actually authored the first legislation to defund Planned Parenthood. We advanced pro-life legislation when I was governor protecting unborn children on the basis of race-based or disability-based abortions. It went to the same. Supreme Court of the United States without success. But to have been a part of the process that sought of the appointment of three of the justices that overturned Roe versus Wade is really one of the greatest privileges of my life. But I do think now we've come not to the end of the battle, but to the end of the beginning.

And now I think it's incumbent on people who stand for the right to life to champion the cause of life at every level. It's very likely that much of this debate will take place at states and state legislatures and state houses around the country. But were I in the Congress of the United States or if I'm ever hired on any other position here in Washington, D.C., we'll look for every opportunity to advance the cause of life. And I will tell you that I do reject the notion that it's a, that it's a political weight on the Republican Party.

I think when you look carefully at the 22 midterm elections, men and women who stood with principle and compassion on this issue and took a pro-life stance, did very well in races around the country. Republicans who shied away from it to one degree or another allowed themselves to be defined did not fair as well. And so for me, it's one of those issues where I think so long as we express ourselves clearly, but also with overarching compassion for women facing crisis pregnancies, to say we're going to be as generous to newborns as we are to the unborn,

that we're going to come alongside families, we're going to advance positive policies like adoption reform. I think we can win hearts and minds in the years to come. I know you're on the weeds on this, so I don't think you'll mind that I ask a pretty specific question now, You mentioned candidates, but some of where that narrative is coming from is also ballot measures. And I wanted to specifically ask you about the Kentucky ballot measure that failed. That would have amended the Kentucky Constitution to make clear, basically, that there was no right to abortion or state funding for abortion in the Kentucky Constitution.

It wouldn't have banned anything, would have then left it to the state legislature to really make that decision. even that failed in Kentucky and Kentucky of all places why isn't that evidence that maybe that pro-life movement isn't as large, isn't as popular as someone like you says it is?

Yeah, it's a really fair question. I mean, Kentucky's a pro-life state and you would have assumed a different outcome and having not been involved in that, I do know there were a couple of other states where there were a referenda that were actually not explained particularly well Sometimes in other states, I followed a bit over the last two years,

and there were people that didn't understand what a yes or a no vote meant. So I wouldn't draw broad conclusions to that. I rather look at races like Zach Nunn who challenged Congresswoman Cindy Axney in Des Moines, Iowa. We went in a campaign for him a few times. Wonderful young man. He's got like eight kids, a beautiful family. And Cindy, actually, like a lot of Democrat incumbents, ran almost exclusively on this issue and ran all kinds of advertising against Zach Nunn on the abortion question.

He squared his shoulders. He looked into the camera and introduced people to his families, spoke from his heart, spoke with compassion. And now it's Congressman Zach Nond in the Democrat district in Iowa. And so for me, that's just one anecdotal example of how, I think this issue, number one, I believe it's the right position. I say that with great respect for people who have diverse views. It's just something from my heart. But I also believe that it's an issue that can win over the American people anywhere.

Are you surprised that elected Republicans, if you look back at the history of the arguments that Republicans made about Roe, they wanted this moment. We've been waiting for this moment for five decades. And the moment came, and it seems to me, to point back to the examples that Sarah gave, and many, many others that elected pro-lifers didn't do a very good job of making a clear, simple case on this.

They've stumbled, they've had trouble. The ballot measures are tricky because you can manipulate language in all sorts of different ways. But just in making arguments, are you surprised that fellow pro-lifers have had the kind of difficulty that they've had in making this case? Well, no, I, look, I always,

Believero versus Wade Biddy overturned. I believe it would be put on the shelf with the Dred Scott decision. It was wrongly decided in the law. In my judgment, it was wrongly decided. Morally, science was literally overtaking Justice Blackman's contrived structure of trimesters.

And so I believed it would go away. But I'm not sure I believed it would go away in my lifetime. And in all fairness, You know, I think many elected officials around the country who stand for the right to life were surprised last summer by what occurred. I was hopeful, I was prayerful that we would get that decision. I had great confidence in the three justices that we appointed, and I believe there was a potential for a majority. but you know with the Supreme Court, you never know.

But having been given this clean new beginning for life, I think the pro-lifers need to take the long view and continue to engage in the kind of compassionate advocacy that I think is personified in the crisis pregnancy center movement around the country. My daughter Charlotte, who's been a youth champion of the right to life, been involved in students for life. She's been volunteering near their naval base in California at a local crisis pregnancy center. And when I think of the way the country has, particularly younger Americans, have become more and more pro-life. I think the compassionate work that's

been taking place at those volunteer privately funded crisis pregnancy centers has probably been the greatest influence of all. Can I ask a follow-up question sort of more broadly about policy? If you look at your sort of non-candidacy right now, I think it's fair to describe it as that, and I listen to you talk about policy, you've been more specific, arguably, than anybody else who's thinking about running, including the candidates who are currently running. And I'm thinking about defense spending. I'm thinking about Ukraine. I'm thinking about abortion. I'm thinking about entitlements. And the takeaway for me is that you're advocating sort of a set of policies, a suite of policies

that could broadly be described as from movement conservative policies, maybe even Reaganite. If I had said that to you 20 or 30 years ago, that would be a compliment and you would run on that. It would be a huge political asset. Is it the case that being described as a Reaganite is an asset in today's Republican party? Well, I love Ronald Reagan. He's the reason I became a Republican. I was the youth Democrat Party coordinator in Bartholomew County, Indiana in 1975. Kind of a community organizer, Sarah, if the truth be told. And Ronald Reagan, I started to pay attention after he was elected.

I remember I told somebody once that I voted for Carter, and they said, everybody voted for Carter in 76. I said, no, I voted for him in 80. But I started listening to Ronald Reagan. I started hearing those ideals, and I heard the voice of my Irish grandfather, an immigrant, and I started hearing my dad and mom who lived the American dream, who were not political, but just good old-fashioned Midwestern patriotic Americans, believed in hard work and family and faith. And I joined the Republican Party, and I don't think our movement has changed that much, Steve.

label you put on it. No, I don't. I mean, if you listen to the arguments that are made by, you know, nationalist conservatives, the populist wing, the ever-growing populist wing of the Republican Party, they talk about Ronald Reagan in derisive terms. They have this phrase zombie Reaganism to denigrate elected Republicans like you who are making the arguments that would resonate with people who were supporters of Ronald Reagan. That's not a small group. I mean, don't you think that's an argument that that's, you know, there's an argument that that's, That's the majority of the Republican Party today. All I can tell you is, you know, I spoke at more Trump rallies than I can remember. And generally, just before the headliner, and I talked about a strong national defense, about American leadership in the world, about standing with our allies, standing up to our enemies. I talked about less taxes, less regulation, American growth, fiscal responsibility. I talked about conservatives on our courts, traditional values. and look, I may not be the most scintillating speaker in the world, but the roof blew off every time I talked about these things.

I mean, this is a movement that I believe in my heart of hearts is still animated by the same things. Now, I believe that Donald Trump added to those things. I really do. I think we change the national consensus on China. I think the American people understand that. I think we added that border security is national security, and the American people in our movement of Iraq.

rallied around that principle. Also, I think we've added the notion that trade has to be fair to the American people and to American workers as well as free. But at the core of the movement, I think it's all still the same, Steve. But I could say you also added $7.8 trillion in debt in one, you know, in one terms. Mick Mulvaney pointed out to us on a previous dispatch podcast that Trump-Pence administration spent more in the first two years than Barack Obama did in his last two years. A lot of spending, pre-COVID spending.

There are ways in which Donald Trump governed that were not at all reminiscent of Ronald Reagan. Do you dispute that? Well, I really don't. I don't think we did what needed to be done on reigning in federal spending. And I appreciate you allowing for what happened during COVID. I'm not saying every dollar spent was spent wisely, but I tend to think that's why you have to balance budgets at the federal levels because history shows up

and you've got to have the ability to meet that moment and be there for families and businesses in the economy. But look, early on, our priority was economic growth, cutting taxes, but we did not put a priority on either controlling domestic spending broadly or certainly never even talked about the real issue facing my children and my grandchildren,

which is a debt crisis, the likes of which the world has never known. We have a national debt today the size of our nation's economy. Our administration contributed to that. I stipulate to that. But at $32 trillion, I think the American people

are now connecting the national debt to their own pocketbooks, that they're seeing that a gusher of spending in debt in Washington, D.C. is driving inflation that's impacting their costs of living and quality of life. But the bad news is, and this is where I think you've got to be straight with the American people, is left unchecked.

And remember, Joe Biden's policy is insolvency. In fairness, my old running mate's policy is identical to Joe Biden's, that we're never even going to talk about Social Security in Medicare, I think we owe my three granddaughters better than that. If we just stay on the trajectory we're on, Sarah, $32 trillion will go to $150 trillion in the next 30 years. And if you wait to deal with it at that point, budget experts will tell you, left, right

and center, you only have bad choices. You either are cutting programs that people really rely on, or you're going to double, you're going to double middle class taxes and probably introduce a European-style taxation system called a VAT. So it's the only way that the numbers work. But if you introduce common sense and compassionate reforms for Americans under the age of 40 now,

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It's Mayvery. There's a lot there we need to dive into. Let's start with entitlement reform. You're at this point, and again, we're going to proto-candidacy is that we're going with? Name it along the way here. I have nothing to announce on the dispatch today. Well, maybe by the end.

So we're clear. Give us time. You're one of the only candidates who has said that he's in favor of looking at entitlement reform, actual cuts. And I just, Steve and I were talking about this before we walked in at the state of the union this year when Joe Biden sort of tried to demagogue the issue about Republicans wanting to cut social security, gut social security. The response from Republicans wasn't to defend why that was necessary, what you're doing here.

It was to say, no, we don't. We all agree that we're not touching social security. And I guess what that leaves us with is two parties who get to be the good guys and tell people, we're never going to cut anything that you like. We're going to keep spending all of this. And you're the bad guy who says, no, no, we probably do need to cut stuff. How is that going to be politically tenable

when nobody else is saying it's necessary? Why wouldn't you vote for the guy who says it's not necessary? The American people have a demonstrated history of being willing to do hard things when you're straight with them. I mean, we've... been through a war for independence, we've been through a civil war, we've been through pandemics, we've been through a depression to world wars.

The American people step up, but it takes leadership to take us there. And look, let me stipulate in real time here. I think Speaker McCarthy is exactly right that the issue of entitlement reform is too big to put into the debt ceiling debate. but I thought it was unfortunate that the impression that Republicans in Congress gave the American people during the state of the union was that they were in agreement

broadly with Joe Biden taking Social Security completely off the table because the American people deserve better than that and again, but I think it takes leadership Sarah and but also I

I really do believe that you know if the American people if you tell them what the facts are, and I think most Americans don't understand where we are headed, they really don't. That when you say, well, we've got debt the size of our economy,

that I'm seeing it, I'm feeling it in inflation, but if you said it's going to increase by five times left unchecked, I think that you can start a conversation with the American people, and then the flip side of that is, I think the way that you present,

I remember when George W. Bush came out you may not remember this but Steve and I are old enough to remember we've got the gray here to prove it so George W. Bush comes out in 2005 he's got a very interesting program to give younger

Americans like you the opportunity to put a portion to your social security withholding into a private savings accounts still an idea whose time will come let the marketplace in America work to give a higher rate

of return in exchange for reforms in the program. I was headfirst without a helmet. I'm for it. I'm a free market guy. I thought this is a great idea. At the time, I was representing the most, demographically, the most senior district in the state of Indiana. And the first time I went home, after I announced that I was for President Bush's Social Security reform, I had a thousand people gathered in a nursing home waiting to talk to me and I stood up and I just explained number one this has nothing to do with anyone in this room nothing and in fact anyone who's going to retire in the next 25 years you don't even need to listen this has nothing to do

with you but for younger Americans for your grandkids for your kids we just got to make the system whole we've got to we've got to fix it so it's there for them I was re-elected in 2006, which was a tough year anyway, resoundingly. We've got tremendous support. And I remember I looked at people. I would always ask people to raise a hand. There were more hands raised 15 years ago than they're out today. But I would ask people to raise a hand who were part of the greatest generation.

And at that time, a fair number of people in the room had raised their hand. And I just look at them and say, you know what? You all saved America during your lifetime once already. and then I looked at those seniors with their hands raised and said, you know, we may need you to save America one more time before you leave us. We may need you to say this is okay for us to do. And I think you appeal to the better angels of people's nature

and you say what the truth is, we can lean our way forward. And the hard fact is if we don't do that, Sarah, I mean, the immense growth of entitlements actually threatens our ability to provide support in traditional anti-poverty programs, traditional infrastructure, and most importantly, it really, it continues to crowd out our ability to provide for the national defense. And that's, we just have to do it. If you were president of the United States, the debt ceiling needed to be raised, and Democrats came to you and said, we'll raise the debt ceiling in exchange. for discussions about immigration and about police reform, would you negotiate to raise the debt ceiling?

It's a numbers thing. I think I would say those are real serious issues. I mean, I think we've got a real crime epidemic in this country. The point being, would you negotiate at all? Is there anything? Well, Steve will tell you, I got involved in immigration reform in 2006. I'm come to the table and I'll talk to you, again, on a constitutional principle basis

and with a bias toward law enforcement and law and order. But not on this. I think this is numbers. I think we have to, we have an obligation to support the full faith and credit of the United States under the Constitution, right? But Joe Biden being

asked for some modest reforms, particularly something as popular as work requirements in Medicaid for able-bodied adults without dependence. these are these are ideas that will be a down payment on restoring fiscal discipline and I think it's so if they came and asked for you know higher taxes then on everyone let's say would that then be something you'd negotiate on if you were president when it came to the debt ceiling

it's a really nice try on your part keep going do another one do another no I would do this all day yeah we're headed we're literally God forbid but we're probably headed into a recession leave it to Democrats who would actually talk about raising. Not, you're not saying you, but if Democrats came and said, let's raise taxes as we're headed into a recession, that would be about par for the course. No, I'd say, come on, let's sharpen our pencils, put some green eyeshades on here, guys.

I mean, if some of your listeners and viewers on the dispatch podcast can click over after you're done and find video of Joe Biden 10 years ago, boasting of having negotiated when he was vice president, to get the debt ceiling raised and having embraced some modest spending reforms that we pushed for. So I think, to me, my hope is that after they pass something out of the house,

that the president will then realize he's got to sit down and he's got to figure this thing out. But I've seen those hopes dashed before. Can I ask you a question about some comments that President Trump made this weekend in a speech that he gave in Fort Myers, Florida? at one point in the middle of the speech, he invoked the name of General Mike Flynn and said, get ready in 18 months, I want to be back in the White House, and I'm going to need you to come work with me.

Should Mike Flynn be considered for a high-level post in the U.S. government? I think the president made the right decision when he dismissed Mike Flynn as the National Security Advisor in the first few months. What about the things that he's been saying since then? I mean, he was asked a question at an event about a recent coup in Myanmar, and the questioner said, why couldn't this happen here? And he said, there's no reason. It should happen here. You have Mike Flynn saying other, making other comments, similar comments,

talking about martial law to rerun elections in swing states in the aftermath of the 2020 election. Should somebody like that be considered for a senior government position? I think the president was right to dismiss Mike Flath. You're not going to go there. In the first few months of the administration. Can I try again?

Let me ask about the president himself then, actually. I've heard you answer probably 50 times questions about January 6th. So I'm not going to ask you about January 6th. But let's talk about some other rhetoric from former President Trump not the same exactly the kind of things that Mike Flynn has said. President Trump has talked about suspending the Constitution and being reinstalled as President of the United States. Now, I think we hear that sometimes and we think,

oh, come on, he's silly, he can't mean it. And then you watch things like the aftermath of the 2020 election and the things he said about January 6th and calling the chance, hang my Pence, common sense. How alarm should we be about this? I mean, a lot of this rhetoric is coming from prominent senior Republicans. I worry about political violence. I mean, I'm with you on the long-term threats to the country, the entitlements.

Worry about my kids, worry about my grandkids. I don't have grandkids yet. But I worry about now. And I worry about next month. And I worry about the lead-up to this next election with the country so divided and people talking about martial law and rerunning elections

and suspending the Constitution. Do you worry about that? Well, you should spend less time on Twitter, maybe. I don't spend much time on Twitter, honestly. I'm just teasing you. Look, our politics is more divided than any time in my lifetime. But I'm not convinced the American people

are as divided as our politics. And it seems like the most extreme, voices on either end of the spectrum get the most attention oftentimes in social media. But as I've traveled around the country the last two years, after having taken the stand that we took on January 6th, I just have to tell you, I've been incredibly moved at how many Americans have come up to me in airports at the grocery store, at the gas station, just walking down the hallway and they spot that white hair and they say you look a lot like Mike Pence and I said I hear that every day and then they express appreciation. I mean I think

the people of this country love the Constitution and I have every confidence going forward that our party's going to choose the right standard bearer who will carry forward that agenda but carry it forward in a way maybe more reminiscent of an earlier time in American politics. You know, we talk so much about entitlement reform. The last time Social Security was reformed was when Ronald Reagan was president. Ronald Reagan and Tip O'Neill extended the life of Social Security by 30 years by literally sitting down, hammering out an agreement, introducing a gradual increase in the age of retirement, which is still taking effect.

But I think the. American people long to get back to the policies of our administration, but I like to say they want to see us have government as good as our people, a government that shows the kind of respect and civility that most Americans show one another almost every day. You've said there's better candidates out there than Donald Trump for 2024. There will be. Well, I said there'll be better choices. Better choices. The former president has said he would not pick you as his running mate, but he's a pretty mercurial guy. Fast forward a year, your phone rings. He says, Mikey, let's roll. Would you be my vice president again? What would you say?

I think running for vice president of the United States twice is enough for any American. You'd say no. I've done that and once successfully, once unsuccessfully. And But if we feel called back in the public service, it'll be for one other position, but not that one. All right. Last question. Marlon Bundo is no longer with us. This was your very famous pet rabbit, really the girl's pet rabbit. I imagine not so much yours, though you traveled with him.

He's written two books before his time came. Three. Three. I apologize. I apologize, Marlon, to your memory. Nevertheless, though, he doesn't. doesn't particularly stand out when you look at the history of presidential pets. Calvin Coolidge, of course, was famous for his pet raccoon Rebecca. He traveled with Rebecca

to South Dakota. Rebecca got to see Mount Rushmore before there was a Mount Rushmore. And I'm curious whether, again, were you to get that other job that you're mentioning, could we expect you to up your game on presidential pets? Who would come with you to the White House? Well, Harley is our Australian Shepherd. Boring. Next. He's precocious. Karen asked me what I wanted for Father's Day, and I told her I wanted a motorcycle because I ride, and she got me a puppy. So I named him Harley.

We got Hazel the Cat, who also was in coloring books when we were in the vice president's office. But my wife, you know, she was 30 years as an elementary school teacher, and one of her signature, moves was always to have a bunny rabbit in her elementary classroom and made her a very popular school teacher um and um i wouldn't be the least bit surprised if uh if you saw uh another marlin bundo show up in the future if there's a future for us um my one of my my daughter charlotte actually it was her bunny rabbit she got it for a film project in college and uh when she uh when she called the guy on Craigslist, who was selling the rabbit, they asked him what he wanted for the rabbit. And he said, make me an offer.

So they said, we're going to call him Marlon Bundo. And he became quite a thing. He had an Instagram account with $30,000. He came up with three different books. He delighted children in visits to the vice president's offices and to the White House. And my favorite term for him was he picked up the nickname, Bodas. of the United States. So I could tell you if there's any future

for us back here in this town, I wouldn't be surprised if there was another bonus. Thank you, Mike Pence, for your time today. Thank you for joining us. And thank you, listeners. We'll see you next time. Great. Thank you, Bo.

You know,