The Dispatch Podcast - Rethinking the Democratic Playbook | Interview: Jim Kessler

Episode Date: March 24, 2025

Jim Kessler, the executive vice president for policy at the Third Way think tank, joins Jamie Weinstein to discuss the failures of the Biden administration, where Democrats could gain ground, and whether Donald Trump will lose his mojo. The Agenda: —What is Third Way? (00:00) —Did the Democrats botch the government funding fight? (1:48) —Where Trump could lose his mojo (5:00) —Dealing with defeat and Trump’s first few months (7:00) —Democrats are out of touch (15:30) —Transgender issues and winning common-sense battles (19:00) —Israel, education, and young voters (28:00) —Should Joe Biden have stayed in the race? (36:30) The Dispatch Podcast is a production of The Dispatch, a digital media company covering politics, policy, and culture from a non-partisan, conservative perspective. To access all of The Dispatch’s offerings—including members-only newsletters, bonus podcast episodes, and regular livestreams—click here. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

During the Volvo Fall Experience event, discover exceptional offers and thoughtful design that leaves plenty of room for autumn adventures. And see for yourself how Volvo's legendary safety brings peace of mind to every crisp morning commute. This September, leased a 26 XE90 plug-in hybrid from $599 bi-weekly at 3.99% during the Volvo Fall Experience event. Conditions supply, visit your local Volvo retailer or go to explorevolvo.com. Welcome to the Dispatch podcast. I'm Jamie Weinstein. My guest today is Jim Kessler. He is executive vice president for Third Way, which he helped found in 2005. It's a center-left think take. Before working for Third Way, he, among other things, was the legislative and policy director for Senator Chuck Schumer. Thirdway recently had a retreat with a lot of Democratic legislators to see what they need to do to get back. into the victory column in elections. Jim Kessler, welcome to the dispatch podcast.

Love to be here. Thanks so much. Jim, let's start for some of the listeners who may not be familiar with Third Way. What is Third Way? So Third Way, it's a center-left think tank in Washington, D.C. we started in 2005, we're 20 years old. I'm one of the co-founders of the organization

and really sort of the raison d'etre of, and there's a Washington elite term, the raison d'etre of Third Way was really like, how do you make sure that the Democratic Party does not veer too far off to the left, which is its inclination, veer off to the left and then like tug back to the center. We do policy work, we do political work,

we work a lot with Congress, we work with Democratic administrations, and we opposed Donald Trump. Well, one of the issues that you guys wrote some, I think you yourself wrote something about was the recent CR passage. It seemed like you were hoping that the Democrats would get some concessions out of it.

I think you had five things that you were hoping that they would fight for. Are you disappointed how it played out? I'm disappointed in how it played out. And I just want to say, like, I don't think it's Schumer's fault, all right? I think the, I thought actually what Schumer did was the right thing to do at that time.

I think Democrats made a mistake from the very beginning. And that was the belief that House Republicans would not be able to pass the bill on their own. And they thought that, you know, the Tea Party would rebel and that Mike Johnson would need some Democratic help and you could negotiate. And I thought that was really a faulty assumption and that this is not Kevin McCarthy's Republican Party

in the House. And Joe Biden isn't president, Donald Trump is president. And when you have a new president who is popular with your base and there's loyalty plus they're afraid of him, they're going to caltel to him, just like the Senate did with Pete Hedgeseth and Tulsi Gabbard. So the first mistake was thinking this wouldn't get through the house. Once it got through the house, I thought it was over.

My feeling was, and I wrote an op-ed to this, we need to stake out some principles early on and say, this is the price for our vote, something that was very understandable. That never happened. By the time we got to the Senate, I think the die was cast. You worked for Senator Schumer before.

What do you make? It does seem like there is this mass, maybe I shouldn't use the term mass, but at least a revolt, and it's hard to sometimes quantify how large these things are. Is this, you know, a desire for new leadership after, you know, 2012 and thinking, you know, whatever, whatever was there existing before

that allowed Donald Trump to win the presidency? We just need to have a clean slate and get somebody else. What do you make of that? And is there a type of leader that could do better than Senator Schumer is doing right now? Yeah, so I think Senator Schumer is a great leader and has been a great leader in the Senate for a long time. I thought he made the right, but the execution of that decision was not at its best. And, you know, it blindsided other Democrats.

And really the choice in this fight was you either lose slow or you lose fast, because you lose either way. I've been through enough government shutdowns. I know what happens. The party that precipitates the shutdown, in this case would be Democrats, you lose. And there's, look, and I don't want to say, say that the people who are, we're like calling for a shutdown, I don't want to like dismiss their concerns because when you lose slow, at least your troops are out there and you get to

fight. If you lose fast, you can move on to the terrain of your choosing. And the shutdown was not the terrain of our choosing. That was the terrain of Trump's choosing. But we never set up that situation so that people understood that choice and that we're going to fight, but we're going to fight on ground where we have a better shot and where we can win. And so, look, you're seeing some consternation out there with Democrats. And that's because, like, I've never seen Democrats, normal Democrats, as agitated as I'm seeing them right now. And, you know, we need to listen to them too. Do you know where that ground is yet? Do you know where do you think that the Democrats have a firmer footing to stand up to Trump? Well, definitely reconciliation

bill and the taxes. And to be clear, standing up to Trump and to Republicans doesn't mean you win the legislative battle, okay? It means that you're winning the communications war and the messaging war. The Republicans will pass their reconciliation bill, meaning their tax package, their tax and spending cuts package. They will pass it because new administrations

always pass their reconciliation bill. That always happens in the first year. but it can be very, very painful and it can bring a party down. And if you sort of look at the ebbs and flows, Jamie, of when do new presidents really start losing their mojo? It happens usually around the first August recess. They're doing the sausage making. The members go home for the August recess. They're in the middle of the reconciliation package. They get their living crap kicked out of them at home. And they come back and the president's approval is down 10 or 15 points

and the members of Congress, their fear meter moves from fear of Trump to fear of voters, and the presidency shrinks and his power over the party shrinks. So our goal should be soften him up, soften him up, soften him up, and that by the August recess,

when they're going home, it's a nightmare for Republicans. That happened to Obama in 2009, that happened to Trump in 2007, 17. That happened to Joe Biden, too. We were in the middle of COVID, so it wasn't as evident. But that's the natural rhythm of those things. You mentioned that you haven't seen normal Democrats as agitated. So, you know, conversely, a lot of people say they haven't seen much, almost defeated. The party seems defeated after Trump. You're not even seeing until maybe some voices upset at Schumer. Many people doing much of anything or speaking out or putting up any

opposition to what's going on in the beginning of the Trump administration. An L.A. donor said anonymously, you know, I dare them to ask me for more money again. People feel like throwing money and then losing so spectacularly. Are you seeing this agitation foment itself into actually action, or is there a sense of defeat? Is there a sense of what do we do now? We thought we were doing everything we could and just got totally caught. So we were defeated, okay?

Let's start with that fact. And, you know, I'm of the belief, and my organization of the belief is this defeat in 2024 exposed a lot of problems that Democrats have been having for a while and that we've been able to paper over, either because we've been winning narrowly or losing narrowly. And I do think, you know, the time for tinkering is over. And I just want to throw out kind of one statistic, okay?

the 20 states that have the highest educational attainment in the country, most college degrees per capita, Harris won 18 of those 20, okay? The 31 remaining states, because one of those 20s is Washington, D.C., that have lower levels of educational attainment, Harris won two. We are just completely non-competitive on a federal level,

presidential, congressional in the House, congressional in the Senate, the 31 states that have the lower levels of college degree attainment. So, like, we need to connect to middle-class voters and working-class voters a lot more. So I do think the time for tinkering is over. I also don't think the answer is going to come from Washington, D.C. I think it's going to come from governors and mayors insofar as their politicians or people in the private sector.

do think the agitation and the concern is a good thing. I don't think it's a bad thing that the approval rating for Democrats right now among Democrats is very low because we have to make changes. I think we need things to stir us all up. You know, it seems to me like this is a, this was not, this was done before by Democrats. Mudcat Sanders was a guest on the show, a long time person I've communicated with. Oh yeah. Mudcat Sanders gets a long, that's the way back machine. We had him on, We had him on before the election, and, you know, he has all sorts of ideas that how to connect with the Bubba voter is he calls them. Let me ask you to dial it back a little bit to January.

Trump's been in office, I guess, under two months or maybe two months? Two months to the day. Two months of the day. There you go. We're recording this on Friday 21st. What do you make of the first two months? Some of it is very familiar of previous presidencies and some of it is very unprecedented. So let me start with the very familiar.

New presidents come in with a ton of momentum. They're able to get things done right away. They almost always have a majority in both houses of Congress just as he does, and they're able to get their stuff through. They also overreach to a mammoth degree and a backlash starts to follow. So if you look at presidential approval ratings for Donald Trump, he's fallen eight points since inauguration day.

every president going all the way back to George H.W. Bush had their approval fall through the first 50, 60 days, okay? So we're seeing that sort of same overreach right away. And when approval drops, you know, the presidency starts to change. What's different is they are using executive orders to a degree that's never been done before. And they're doing dismantling of government and challenging rule of law. and the courts and the liberal world order out there like no one has ever done before. And if you're one of those people who's saying, like, I fear for our democracy, I fear for the fate of the world, I feel fear for everything that this country stands for, I'm not here to dissuade you.

I fear for those things too. So, yeah, and so in certain sense, very much like previous presidents, in another sense, unlike any other president. There was just an article today of a recent guest on this podcast, wrote Jamie Kurchick, a conservative, Donald Trump had has destroyed the liberal world order, the free world is, there's no coming back. He believes that historians will look at this Zelensky meeting in the Oval Office and JD dances speech in Munich. By the way, a lot of which he agreed with, but not the setting in which he gave this speech and say this was the end of the free world. Do you believe that Trump has already ended kind of American? a historic role in the world and that this is irreversible, or do you believe it is reversible? Jamie, if you ask me that question, I could give you a different answer at different times of the day based on my mood, you know, and what I'm thinking.

Like, I don't know. My fear is that it is. The Zelensky meeting in the White House, there's echoes of the phone call he had with Zelensky either, I figured it was 2018 or 2019 over Hunter Biden in Burisma. I mean, the seat. of the Russian invasion of Ukraine was that phone call. You know, six, seven years to the Zelensky meeting in the White House. Like Trump still despises Zelensky. He still likes Putin. And our hope, like what we're hanging our hope on is that people like Lindsey Graham,

that tells you the thin read of hope that we're hanging on to. And Marco Rubio are privately telling things to Donald Trump that they're not saying publicly to move his position so that we don't cut a deal that is vastly pro-Putin, pro-Russia. And also, we're seeing, okay, Europe is now going to be spending a whole lot more on their military than they did in the past. Congratulations, that was a goal that Republicans had for a long time, certainly Trump did. But they are moving away from the U.S. That is the price.

And I believe that Europe is going to start engaging more with China. because they don't fear China. America fears China. Europe fears Russia. They're figuring out that they can't count on America as a partner and they're moving further away. Well, this world order has basically worked for the last 80 years because we have been in lockstep with Europe,

our North American partners, and our Asian partners. Now we're going into a complete unknown. So I'm, you know, I'm very concerned. I don't know the answer to your question. My answer is I'm very, very concerned. Well, is there anything that you think Trump has gotten right in the first two months that you're not in agreement with that this was the right moods? Well, I'm not going to say he got anything right.

I would say he's got his finger on the pulse of America in a way that has gotten him elected and, you know, like people are really frustrated with government. And we should have done our own version of reinventing government. me. And we should have done our own version of being tough on the border and securing the border. I think it was a huge Biden failing. I think the view of the Biden presidency is going to diminish and become more negative over time. I thought they were staffed by people way too far to the left and far to the left of Joe Biden. And they were derelict on the border. And I think that came from the White House, not from DHS. And government reform was an easy one to do. And they did.

didn't do it. So I think in some places, you know, Trump has some the right instincts. He just steps on the accelerator and we're going at 90 miles an hour recklessly and, you know, putting Elon Musk in charge. Can't say that was a good idea for sure. Not long ago, I saw someone go through a sudden loss and it was a stark reminder of how quickly life can change and why protecting the people you love is so important. Knowing you can take steps to help protect your loved ones and give them that extra layer of security. brings real peace of mind. The truth is the consequences of not having life insurance can be serious. That kind of financial strain on top of everything else is why life insurance

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reaching your audience without having to piece together a bunch of different tools. All seamlessly integrated. Go to Squarespace.com slash dispatch for a free trial. And when you're ready to launch, use offer code dispatch to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. Well, you did have a, the third way had a, was it called the Comeback Summit. We explained that was, I'm going to go through some of the highlights that I see from the press rules or the, I guess, the notes that were issued out. But what was the Comeback Summit? Yeah, it was a comeback retreat. We had, we invited about 80, mostly mainstream, centrist Democrats, not elected officials for the most part.

You know, some outside of the D.C. area, some within the D.C. area, we brought them together for two days and wrestled with the question, why do we have an economic disconnect with the working class? And why do we have a cultural disconnect with the working class? And then how do we solve those problems? And so it was a two-day retreat. We're not going to get all the answers to that. But we really put people through the paces. We put them in small groups. had moderated discussions, my opinions weren't, didn't matter. I was asking questions and people in the room were taking notes and we put them all together and came up with a document of what people were saying, which is what you're referring to. You know, one of the things that jumps out at me, and my view of the last several years was there's two real big threats that I'm voting on.

It became a two-issue voter. One was democracy, and that's why I couldn't support, Donald Trump, because I felt bad, but right underneath it, and it wasn't, it was maybe two, two, but it was close, was stop teaching my kids crazy things in schools. And in D.C. at a four-year-old at the time, you could see it even there. And this over-emphasis on identity politics comes up a lot in this document about basically what I was saying, you're teaching crazy things in school. That's not resonating with much of America. Can the Democrats move away from that.

We saw Gavin Newsom tried to do that on a podcast saying that transgender women should not be competing in women's sports. You know,

before 2012-24 election, if you were to say that as a Democrat, you probably would be thrown out of the party and I think Seth Bolton tried to do that and was really routinely

beaten up by a lot of people in the party. Is it possible to move to that position and still win as a Democrat? So, Jamie, you could say it. You just had to whisper it. Okay.

And you had to whisper it in enclosed company. There is no question that Democrats just became culturally unaligned with a lot of America. In some ways, I think it's unfair to blame it on, like, transgender people, okay? If you look at the ad that was used against Kamala Harris, and it was, you know, about transgender care in federal prisons being played by tax, U.S. tax dollars, that question on the questionnaire that she got pinned down on,

that wasn't even a transgender group that raised that question. That was the ACLU. And so you look at, you know, there's a whole litmus test, purity test mentality that is off-putting. And it is nearly all

on these cultural social issues where people at home and with their friends are saying, like, I'm uncomfortable with this, but I'm uncomfortable raising my hand and talking about it because I will be shot down. We have a choice. We can still be afraid to raise it and lose, or we have to talk about these issues

in a way that we're winning the battle of reasonableness with average ordinary voters out there. And I do believe that that is very possible to do you have to get out of the sort of faculty language that we use and talk what normal people do and not be afraid to be with a group 70% of the time as opposed to 100% of the time. But yeah, we're going to have to make changes there.

I covered a debate in California. I think it was a Republican primary debate, but Debbie Wasserman-Schultz was there probably in the spin room. And I asked her, before this was kind of a national campaign issue, but you can see the seeds of it, you know, at the time I think I asked her, should a transgender woman, a man who identifies the woman, be allowed in female combat sports, which just seems the obvious thing.

It was one of those things that she was afraid to even get on the side of it. It does seem like a conditioning would have to take place. To me, a radical one where this is now allowed to be said that you don't want transgender women in female sports and whatever tangential issues come aside of that. You think that's possible as a reversal of policy in the Democratic Party? Yes, I do. And, you know, look, the way, first of all,

there's very few transgender women in women's sports. Like, this is one of those issues that I was going to compare it to partial birth abortion from the 1990s where it was an issue that came up and, like, there were almost no partial birth abortions. But there was actually far more partial birth abortions. as rare as they were, then trans women in, you know, in girls' sports in high school and in college. So in essence, like it was an issue that was foisted upon us. And look, I just think we have to win the battle of common sense on these things and have an overall principle, which is

life, liberty, in the pursuit of happiness, and that includes for transgender people. But there are places where safety and fairness take precedent, and this is one of those places. Let's move on. And I think Rahm Emanuel has talked about, you know, I think Rom is, you know, he's very smart and he's like, I don't want to talk about the locker room. I want to talk about the classroom. And I think even saying that is, you know, satisfies people too. I just want to add one more thing, particularly on the trans issue. We've done some research on this, okay? There is a general empathy out there. in the population for transgender people and parents who have transgender kids. There's a sort of, there for the grace of God, do I. I want to make sure everybody's safe. I want the best for them.

It's a tough situation. I don't want to be proselytized too, but I don't want harm to come to these folks. That's the right spot to be in. So using that as your guidepost, I think, can get you to the right place. I agree, but Jim, I think the zeitgeist, at least in a certain, I mean, I've seen it in D.C. schools. And I know of examples of three or four years old where the school is trying to push them to say they're transitioning to a different gender where the parents are like that. That is happening.

You sometimes see it on TV and you think, oh, they're exaggerating things that are going on. on Fox News, but I've seen kind of the craziest things that are occurring. Parents, parents have to be involved, you know, medical professionals. You know, like this, you can't do something and not have the parent of that child be involved, whether the three-year-old, three or 17 years old, to me. One of the other issues of the comeback retreat that came up is failure to prioritize economic concerns. I wonder if you thought, you know, it was just a tone deaf, you know, obviously the economic indicators were pretty good under Biden, but you still had people, you know, complaining about prices because even though if inflation goes down, the prices remain high, you know, the percentage increase goes down, it did seem on a national level that the Democrats just couldn't grasp that difference, that, yes, the inflation has gone down now, but the prices remain very, very high and people are complaining about those. Right. So if you're between the ages of 25 and 64 and you have a college degree,

your median household income is $124,000. Okay? That's 38% of the country. If you're between 25 and 64 years old and you don't have a college degree, that's 62% of the country, your median household income is $61,000. So if your median household income is $124,000, inflation is a problem. If it's $61,000, inflation is a crisis. So going back to what I said to you earlier, Democrats won 18 of 20 states where we have the highest levels of college degree attainment and we went two for 31 in the states that do not. So we've been, Because we've become a party that is relied on kind of overly educated, particularly white voters, in combination with African Americans and a decreasing amount

Latinos, we are missing a segment of society that should be with us, but is not with us. And, you know, the inflation, inflation proved to be the, you know, the cockroach in the cherry bowl. you know, for the economy. One of the other points I see on the readout of it is the elect of the party to kind of marginalize the far left.

The issue I see with elections sometimes is you can never get a, everyone can have their stats to prove that they're right. So the far left is going to say the reason they lost is that you didn't go to the lectrum or you didn't go to the Bernie Sanders. In fact, I think Kamala Harris

that the convention tried to become more to the center because she didn't have to go through a primary. And obviously, third way is going to say, well, no, it's because these issues stigmatized the Democratic Party. How do you win that battle? Is there a way to win that battle definitively? I mean, because both sides are going to claim

their path forward to victory. The answer is no. You can never win that battle definitively. You win it periodically. the Democratic Party is almost evenly split between moderates and progressives. And so the natural inclination of our party is to bicker.

We do that so well. But this gets decided in a Democratic primary for president. And what we have seen in the past is that Democrats have, Democratic voters, have moved towards electability. and picking a candidate that they believe can beat Republicans.

And in particular, it's African-American voters who are doing that. You saw them in South Carolina. They elected Joe Biden. That's probably the most African-American state primary in the country, and African-Americans are overwhelmingly moderate to conservative in the South. Look, I think on the cultural issues, there's no doubt the party has to move to the center

and on cultural issues I'm not just talking about like the trans issues like it's the border it's crime you know it's a whole series of issues that are that you know that are sort of like the values

of law and order and rules based society and that sort of thing there's no doubt also and look this is where I would give credit to the left economically I think the proper more centrist economic, democratic economic message

needs to take a piece of the populism from the left with pro-growth, pro-opportunity, pro-middle-class policies there. And, you know, there is a right for Americans to be very angry at the gazillionaires out there that have incredible wealth and incredible power in this country. At the same time, most Americans really aren't that anti-business,

you know? They might not like some businesses, but like they don't hate Amazon, to be honest. They don't hate Google. They might hate Exxon or they might hate pharma. So I do think you need to be pro-growth, pro-opportunity, pro-working class

but you know you can lean into like who are your enemies out there which I think the left has done better in one issue that's become somewhat of a common theme of this show we brought it on several times is this disconnect

with younger voters and it's not just the left unfortunately but there are some elements of the right as well but but I do think it's probably highlighted mostly on the left in the Democratic Party, where younger voters tend to be becoming less pro-Israel than before. I do think America as a whole right now is pro-Israel.

Where does the Democratic Party need to be on Israel? Can it be a vocally pro-Israel party and keep the left wing of its base? Yes. But it has gotten more challenging. And, you know, I have a daughter in college. And, you know, she's not at protests or anything like that. But, like, you know, she certainly wouldn't characterize yourself as pro-Israel. She just certainly would not.

I'm Jewish. I'm older. I've been through, you know, I remember the Munich Olympics and things like that. Her life is very different, what she is seeing and experience. And I've been worried for a while, long before October 7th, that Israel is losing younger people all across the country. And we're not, Israel is not seen as a sympathetic entity. It's not, it once was the underdog.

So, and I also happened to be in Morocco on October 7th. And I just remember the first day or two, people, you know, really empathizing with Israel. And then when the hospital blew up and was originally blamed on the Israelis and it was most likely, Ghazans blowing it up themselves, every, when, you know, when, you. in Morocco, you could see change like in an in an in an instant Israel's losing a public relations war in this country with younger people. Look, I think I think the issue rises and falls with with people you know I I'm I'm not so sure after Donald Trump wanting to turn Gaza into the riviera that young people are going to say absolutely no to Democrats because they're pro-Israel

compared to like Donald Trump what he's doing. One thing I don't see in your document and I wonder if the issue is just over now after the 2024 election resonated with me but maybe didn't resonate with others. It's January 6th. Is that now, I mean, Donald Trump winning

does that, I mean, what happens to the issue that they try to overthrow the government in 2020? I mean, where do you go from there? Can you raise that anymore after he's reelected? Right, it did not come up. in our two days. Like, people didn't brain up,

or if they did, it was brought up so infrequently that it, you know, didn't make it into the document and into people's notes. Again, we were talking about economic disconnect and cultural disconnect there,

although I do think January 6 is part of a cultural connect versus disconnect. The irony is if you want to save democracy and the rule of law, I don't think Democrats, the main subjects should be democracy in the rule of law. It has got to be much closer to people's bread and butter.

And their bread and butter is their economic situation and the cultural situation. What they're talking about at the dinner table isn't just their bills. It's what you're talking about, what's happening, you know, at the schools. And whether they think the public schools that their kids are at are serving them well. And I remember, you know, I didn't have the same experience as you. My child is older about, you know, the schools trying to say to somebody, well, you know, what gender you should be. And we're D.C. public school as well. But I was struck by the fact that if, that when you're learning American history in D.C. public schools,

it is a very negative view of America. And so if you're growing up with a negative view of America being taught, why save it when it's in trouble? You know? And I really think that that is a mistake. And of course our country isn't perfect. It never was and it never will be. But it has always been striving for something.

Like it's accomplished some incredible things. And I do think we should be, you know, Four measures, great country, one measure, a lot of problems, a lot of things that we need to reckon with. And that's plenty, okay? But I do think, you know, we've done extraordinary things in this country and we should be proud of it and our kids should be proud of this country. We had George Packer on the show who I think wrote the most important piece on this

when the culture war comes for the kids before COVID. And I think the issues that we discuss Israel and the education system, I think they're actually all tied together with the worldview that a lot of kids are coming out of school with. Let me ask you, what Democrat do you think is doing a good job? We mentioned Rahm Emanuel, kind of touching on the issues that you're talking about. Who's standing out as a figure that you think is changing course and resonating with the public? I love Richie Torres from New York, and I think he's a star to watch.

Jake Ockin-Claas of Massachusetts is terrific. Alyssa Slotkin of Michigan is terrific. Abigail Spanberger, who's running for Governor of Virginia as a former house member, fantastic. Justin Bibb, mayor of Cleveland, really interesting, doing interesting things. these are some of the young next generation up-and-coming folks. I'm missing a whole bunch, I'm sure.

Ruben Gallego, I think, is, you know, was progressive, now centrist, Arizona, fascinating person. I do think Democrats have a spectacular bench out there. And, you know, we should be using them more. What do you make of John Federman? He was a boogeyman on the right. People really dismissed him, and now he's kind of beloved on the right for some of the issues he's stood up for.

But where does he fit within the Democratic Party right now? Federman's really interesting. I think he's worth watching. And, you know, he should have been on my list, too. He's an iconoclast. You can look at somebody like Richie Torres, or Lisa Slokton, or Abigail, Spanberger and say, like, well, I'm going to model myself after them.

I don't think you can look at Federman and say, like, oh, I'm going to model myself after Federman, because Federman is Peterman. What I think is interesting is he acts like he's playing with house money. Like, I have nothing to lose. You know, I think the word authentic is overused in politics, but not with him. He's an interesting guy and someone to watch. And Pennsylvania is such an important state. You know, Josh Shapiro, that's another one.

you know, like Gretchen Whitmer, PA is very important. You know, it's like New York, New York. If you can win in PA, you can win anywhere. I wonder, how much do's third way? How much do you, if at all, blame Joe Biden for not getting out early for the Democrats lost? Do you think that would have made the difference?

Do you think would have won if he stayed in? And no. You think he needed to get out? My New Year's resolution was to take off. my pretend glasses because I convinced myself that Joe Biden could win in 2024 because I was seeing what I wanted to see and not what others were seeing. And so I was disappointed in November 2022 when Biden said that he was going to run again. I think the trajectory of his presidency would have been different if he said, I'm done.

I think we would have gotten a border security deal, you know, if he said he was done. And there was fear that Kamala Harris wasn't going to be an able candidate. I think she actually performed pretty well as a candidate. The problem was Kamala Harris when she ran in 2019 was not an able candidate. But it would have been good to have a real primary out there. What we saw on that June debate stage must have been, seen inside the White House

enough times that there should have been people saying this this can't be done. Rees tries what you saw or had you heard of stories of maybe he's diminished a little bit?

So I was shopped. I 40 seconds into the debate I texted my colleagues and said, it's over. and you know I thought he was going to win the debate and you know his state of the union address in March he was really good you know he was he had energy

now granted there's a teleprompter right but but he just he seemed full of life and having fun and on top of it but and you know every once in a while you'd hear something like yeah, he didn't seem sharp or, you know, he's going to these fundraisers and, you know, he didn't perform that well,

but, you know, you hear what you want to hear. And what's the alternative? Right? It's like the primaries. And I think, you know, Dean Phillips, I criticized Dean Phillips.

He was right. Dean Phillips didn't want to run in a Democratic primary. He wanted somebody else to run. He was right. And so when we say, we meaning Democrats, say look at Donald Trump and all the horrible, horrible things he's doing, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, completely legitimate. Well, look what we were ignoring too. And I put myself in that category of people that, you know, drank the Kool-Aid there.

And so, yeah, I think it's inexcused. that on, and we had to wait and to see a performance like that where it really looked like you should be in a nursing home to, you know, the plug. Let me close on a couple questions on 2028. You mentioned a bunch of candidates that you think are doing a good job of, uh, and, and expressing what maybe with the, the third way, uh, kind of ideas. which of those do you think would be a compelling 2008 presidential candidate?

So first of all, if I had my druthers, I would like us to nominate someone who is not from either coast. There are 19 states that touch the Atlantic or Pacific Ocean. Harris won 14 of them. There are 32 that do not. She won six. That's the worst of any Democrats since Mike Dukakis.

And two of those six were D.C., not a state, and Vermont. So we have to get in touch with the interior of the country, and ultimately I would like to see somebody from the interior of the country winning the nomination. That's not Gavin Newsom, okay? That's not to say, you know, Gavin Newsom wouldn't be a good candidate and might end up being the nominee

and could get elected president. And I do think, you know, he's making a concerted effort to move to the center, and I salute that. But I think we have a geographic problem there as well. You know, that's not to say Gavin Newsom shouldn't be the nominee. I'm just saying my druthers would be somebody from the interior of the country. Is there a candidate outside of politics that you can see running on the Democratic side and being successful?

I mean, obviously Trump has was successful coming from a different world. Is there a celebrity candidate or a business candidate that you think could be successful for the Democrats? I like Mark Cuban He tells me no He tells me he's no longer interested in doing this But do you think you think you could You think a Democrat He could be convinced to run

I don't know You know I really don't know I don't know I don't know Mark Cuban well enough To answer that question I mean I do you know People get tempted To it

You know when you run You got to be all in You know Another name that I think is interesting Jared Polis out there. No, he's a politician, Colorado, but he's doing very interesting things too. I do think

the next person that we nominate, that person should feel that like it's really turning a page and, you know, there's some newness to it. Well, let me close on this. What are the odds and what happens if Donald Trump says that he's shrugting again for a third to her?

He won't win. He's 82. He'll be. 82 and he'll be extremely unpopular. But you think he, I mean, do you think that the court, I mean, what, what happens? Does that go to the Supreme Court? Do Democrats, you know, that becomes a very interesting beginning of a race, I guess, if Donald Trump says that he's running for a third term?

I'm not an expert on the courts. And if the court says he can run, then the court says he can't run, which I think the court should say. he will not get reelected, he will be unpopular, he will be too old, and we're going to go into a recession. He's going to lead us into a recession. With that, Jim Kessler, thank you for joining the Dispatch podcast. Thank you. Pleasure. You know,