The Dispatch Podcast - Should the RNC Pay Trump’s Legal Bills? | Interview: Henry Barbour

Episode Date: March 5, 2024

Henry Barbour, Republican National Committeeman from Mississippi, discusses his proposed resolutions that would bar the RNC from spending money on Trump’s legal bills. The Agenda: —Getting back to the RNC’s roots —Electing Lara Trump —Did Ronna McDaniel get what she deserved? —Speaking out against Trump —Concerns about an RNC purge Show Notes: -Super Tuesday coverage from The Dispatch -Watch the interview on our YouTube channel Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Welcome to the Dispatch Podcast. I'm David Drucker, and thanks for joining us for our conversation with Henry Barber. Barber is the nephew of legendary former Republican National Committee Chairman Haley Barber and an elected member of the RNC from Mississippi. We invited him on to the Dispatch podcast to talk about a resolution he recently proposed that is controversial in some GOP circles, that if voted on and approved by the committee, would prohibit the national party from spending money to cover Donald Trump's massive legal. bills, which are related, of course, to his indictment in four criminal cases. Now, as you'll learn in a moment from our discussion, Barber typically shies away from the media spotlight. So we jumped at the chance to have him on the dispatch podcast to discuss his resolution, the leadership changes coming to the RNC spurred by Trump, who, by the way, is on his way to becoming the

party's presumptive presidential nominee and the unfolding general election campaign against President Joe Biden. And now, Henry Barber. Henry Barber, the Republican National Committee man from Mississippi. Thanks so much for joining us on the Dispatch podcast. David, thank you, man. Glad to be with you, live from Oxford, Mississippi. Yeah, this is fun. You're headed to Houston in a couple of days, if I'm not mistaken, for

an RNC spring training turned business meeting. And we'll get to that in a minute. I have a lot of questions about what you have been doing with resolutions you have proposed that have to do with how the RNC spends its money, how the RNC operates prior to a Republican winning enough delegates to be the official presumptive nominee. Obviously, a lot of these things relate to Donald Trump, who is the likely nominee and is going to get quite close to becoming the presumptive nominee, probably later today. We are recording on Tuesday, March 5th, which is super Tuesday. A lot of primaries, so there's going to be a lot of movement. But before I get to that, I think a lot of people might wonder, because they're not nerds like us, I introduced you as

the Republican National Committee man from Mississippi. So explain to us a little bit about what that means. You've been at this for quite a while. What does it mean that you're the RNC committee man from Mississippi? What is it that you do? So, David, there are 168 members of the R&C, three from each state and territory of the United States. And there's a state chair, there's a committee woman and a committee man. And I had been on the committee going back to So middle of George W. Bush days and actually worked at the R&C in the 90s prior to that. But a committee man, everybody does it a little differently. Some of them are more focused on raising money.

Some of them like me are more of an operative and involved in campaigns and, you know, working with different candidates on how to win, working with our state chair, a message and just organization, turnout, just the blocking and tackling of winning elections. And I want to explain to people, the reason I'm referring to you as the committee man is not just because, well, you're a man and you're on the committee. By rule, each state in terms of RNC membership must have one woman and one man in addition to whoever the chairman, is of whichever gender. And so that's designated. And we'll get to this in a minute. And I didn't even realize this. And I've covered you guys a long time. All right. So that's going to be relevant

to our discussion in a minute. The other thing I wanted to talk about, and it's kind of been a hobby horse of mine, but I think people also wonder, you know, especially given our volatile politics over the past few years. And by the way, I get asked these questions about the Democratic National Committee as well. But I'll often get asked, you know, why doesn't the Republican Party stop candidate X from running in their primary or from being the nominee or why doesn't candidate X or why doesn't the Republican National Committee, why doesn't the party, you know, do this or do that? I mean, look, the Republican National Committee, first of all, we, you know, I want you to speak to this, but we don't live in an era anymore where the RNC or the DNC are smoke-filled rooms

to use the cliche, and the party has its own separate power base aside really from elected officials, right? I mean, you guys, you raise money, you run voter turnout operations, you support the policies and the messages issued by the elected officials or supported by the elected officials, meaning elected Republicans. It may vary from state to state. In Vermont, if you're going to win statewide, you probably need to be a moderate Republican. in Mississippi where you're from, if you're going to run statewide and get elected, you probably need to be a conservative, a more ardent Republican. Talk about what the RNC does and does not do the power it has and doesn't have.

Well, I will say certainly political parties don't have the power in control that they had 30, 40 years ago. There's no question that that's changed with campaign finance laws and all these independent third-party super PAC type groups that have a lot of influence. And primaries have changed that. As states have moved to primaries, it's really the voters that decide who's going to be the nominee, whether it's the presidency or Senate races or even gubernatorial races. You know, we have these primaries. And that's been a change over the last several decades.

The R&C is more like the utility provider. You know, we do the basic infrastructure of campaigns. We make sure that we have good data. There's a good list. We know who that we need to talk to to win the election and turn out. And the R&C certainly raises lots of money for organizational efforts out in the field. And, but the RNC doesn't do a lot of the messaging. Typically, you know, the candidates, the members of Congress, you know, lead on that.

And the RNC reinforces that. And, of course, the R&C, the big job it has is to host the convention every four years. It nominates the president and the vice president nominee of the Republican Party. That's the big job that the RNC has. We've been doing that since 1856, going. back a few years. And so we have a lot of longstanding rules and mission. But our core mission, our one mission, is to help make sure that Republicans win elections. That's really the only job we have. Everything else is kind of noise. Okay. Let's get to your resolutions. I want to

pick up on some of that stuff in a little bit, but let's get to your resolutions. A couple things, you know, I've known you for a long time. For people that don't know Henry Barber, as he described himself more of an operative, also a background operative, not always out front, not always look at, not always with his name in the news, but you proposed recently a couple of resolutions that, and I'll let you correct me on this if things have changed since we last talk, but I know one, at least you're still hoping to receive a vote on in Houston if you can generate the requisite support, which would be to make it an RNC rule that no candidate for office, and let me know if this applies to incumbents as well. It's a question I had. Would the RNC

would not be permitted or it would be prohibited from covering legal costs for that candidate or anything related to their personal private business. Where are you with that? tell us a little bit about that resolution and whether or not you think you might get to a point, you know, by later this week where you're going to be able to at least force members to vote on it. Yeah. So a small group of us on the R&C, R&C members, decided we wanted to bring forth a resolution that would make it plain that the R&C is to spend its resources, its money on winning elections and not spending any R&C financial resources for the legal bills of any political candidate. Now, I will say we were thinking of Donald Trump.

He's got all these legal bills. And the R&C, actually a couple of years ago, spent about $1.6 million of paid President Trump's legal bills. I think it was a bad precedent. And there has been talk recently from Trump World that, well, Well, there are R&C donors, and they want to pay his legal bills. And I don't think that's a good idea, and it certainly conflicts with the R&C's core mission. Our core mission, again, winning elections. That's our only job.

And so we felt it was important as these voices were coming about saying, yeah, we should have the R&C help pay these legal bills of the former president. And we felt, no, no, that's not a good idea. It's a bad precedent. And so that's why we offered that specific resolution dealing with legal bills. Now, at last count, you had enough support from eight of the ten states you need to bring this up at the meeting. What's your progress? Our progress is really gone well. We're now down to seven.

So, look, it's tough. And in fact, with this being, according to the R&C rules, if it's a specially called meeting, you can get, you can submit the co-sponsors of a resolution three days prior to the meeting. So for us, that's today, Tuesday. And honestly, David, I'm not optimistic that we're going to get there. I've got, as I said, seven states where we have two of the three R&CHA. R&C members. And I've got a bunch of states where I have one person that is supportive of it, but I'm not optimistic.

Now, I will say the Trump campaign, I don't think is crazy about a resolution, but I give him credit, Chris Las Savita, who is helping run the Trump campaign, has said publicly that, oh, no, we are not going to take R&C dollars and use them for former President Trump's legal bills. So we welcome that, but I have stated that, look, I wish Las Vita and the Trump team would join us in supporting this resolution for a few reasons. It will memorialize it. It will give R&C donors and prospective donors more confidence that their dollars that they give to the R&C will actually be used for our core mission winning elections and not use for. legal bills, which really has nothing to do with whether we're going to win in November or not.

And then it can be, I think, misleading for the RNC to use political money that we receive from donors for that purpose. When somebody gets a solicitation, typically they're going to say, hey, we need to win back to the White House, get the country back on track. But if you would take their $30 that they send you a month and you use it to pay off somebody's legal bills, I just, I don't think that's right. It's not consistent with our core message. And that's why we've been focused on this. But however it turns out, whether we get a vote on Friday or not, I think we did the right thing, emphasizing the RNC's core mission. And I am appreciative of Chris Lasavita, who's a heck of an operative, saying, that, yeah, they don't anticipate, well, he's just said they won't use R&C dollars for that

purpose. If there are donors that want to help President Trump's legal bills, there are other ways to do that. Now, look, on the one hand, I want to ask the question this way. Why so much resistance to this proposal when we're not just talking about one little lawsuit, you know, maybe some amount of money and legal bills, 25 grand, 50 grand, even half a million dollars. I mean, the former president has spent tens of millions of dollars, of his donors' money, I should add, but tens of billions of dollars in legal bills. And this is an issue with his four criminal cases, four criminal indictments, and it is still ongoing. Why so much resistance when you guys are trying to win back to Senate, preserve a narrow house

majority, win back the White House, why wouldn't people want to ensure that the money is not going to go to legal bills rather than voter turnout, advertising, and all of the things that involve electing candidates, including the likely nominee, Donald Trump? Well, I'll tell you, David, really the response that I've gotten from the resolution, both from RNC members and, you know, just friends of mine and, you know, elected officials has been essentially 100% positive. I will say I got one negative yesterday. Somebody wasn't too policed about it. But because people get it. They get what our job is. Our job is pretty simple. We got to win elections. And this is inconsistent with that. And, you know, that's, you know, frankly, it's

President Trump's legal bills. It's not the RNC's legal bills. If the RNC has legal bills, we can't pay them. If President Trump has legal bills, he needs to pay him. And he was able to use $50 million last year from one of his super PACs to help pay his legal bills. And that, look, that's their entity. They can do that. I think they have a go fund me. Yeah. But again, R&C, this is just not. But they don't want to make them mad, right? I mean, this comes down to RNC, I don't mean to interrupt, but this comes down to RNC members who are loyal to President Trump, but that's fine, but they don't want to do anything that looks as though they are being critical of him that they don't, right? I mean, isn't that what this comes down to? Or do you think they

want to preserve the option that if necessary, the RNC can step in and help him cover this? I think it has a lot to do with just loyalty to Trump. Trump is just, you know, Trump is a different politician. I mean, he has incredible loyalty with his voters. And look, he doesn't usually get too excited if somebody disagrees with him. And so I think that's why a lot of R&C members are kind of leaving this alone. And there's, it's a small group of us that are talking about this. But like I said, I think it's important that we stand up for longstanding principles of the institution of the R&C. This sets about. precedent. But at the same time, David, it's really important for the RNC to keep its eyes

focused on the prize, which is we've got to win the White House. We've got to take back the Senate, which where we have a great opportunity. We have really good candidates that we've recruited. We've got to hold the house. We need to win some governorships and state legislative races. So we've got to stay focused on that. And, you know, today is Super Tuesday. We kind of have a sense probably how it's going to go today between Nikki Haley and former President Trump. And so we are now shifting from the primary to the general. And I think it's time to, you know, think about that big picture of how we do that effectively to make sure that we went in November to make sure that Joe Biden has to move out of the White House come January of

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happening if he wasn't running for president because they think this is the way they can beat him. And you look at the polling and Trump's led Biden pretty consistently in polls since September. We just had a fresh batch of polls out over the weekend in advance of Super Tuesday shows him gaining with key constituencies and just beating Biden in swing states nationally, et cetera. So why shouldn't the RNC help him out with these legal bills, if necessary, given that this is all about politics? This is what a lot of Republicans would ask. Sure. I don't think there's any question that a lot of these have to do with politics and they're attacking President Trump because they're, you know, these into these courts, these attorneys general, they don't like Donald Trump and they want to damage him. And so I get that and I get that there is a political angle to it. but still the R&C's got to spend its money on win elections and while it is unfortunate

let's say this New York case that he was trying to get President Trump to pay $350 million in damages when there's no victim there's nobody that got hurt the banks that loaned him the money all made money so it's it is ridiculous and I think in a lot of respects, it really helped him about a year ago take control of the Republican primary because Republican voters who were loyal to him began to rally around him, some of whom had kind of moved over towards DeSantis. But still, you know, I don't think it's what the R&C should be spending its money on. We do have to make sure, though, that we're doing the things to make that President Trump wins in November.

And I will say, for me, look, I don't agree with President Trump on everything. You know, most people don't agree with anybody on everything. But that said, certainly as we move from primary to general and President Trump becomes a presumptive nominee here in just a matter of a couple of weeks, I will be supporting President Trump, even though I haven't supported him in the primary because we've got to get Joe Biden out of the White House. And I would urge and encourage Republican voters who maybe voted for DeSantis or Nikki Haley or whoever to really come to terms with this is going to be a race really decided between do you want Donald Trump? Do you want Joe Biden? And what are the core policy differences

is that a Trump administration with a Republican Senate or Republican House, what are the things that it can accomplish versus the direction that Joe Biden has been taking the country? And I think, you know, when it comes to crime, comes to border, comes to national security, comes to inflation, there's no question that a Republican administration led by Donald Trump with a Republican Senate and House will just do worlds better than what we've gone through the last few years. And let me just say there's a Harvard Harris poll that just came out about a week ago, David, 82% of all Americans say, quote, we need a new president. 82%. There's a huge political opportunity for the Republican Party. Sure. Now, we also have seen polls that show near

that amount don't want to see a rematch between Biden and Trump. And look, I've, I've interviewed supporters of President Trump. I think you just mentioned a lot of the reasons why, his voters support him. I've also interviewed quite a few voters who supported Florida Governor Ron DeSantis, but lately, Nikki Haley, the former South Carolina governor, and they have told me that they don't like Trump because they don't like the way he acts. They were really disappointed with his behavior post-2020 election, not to mention January 6th, but that larger than that even,

it gets larger than that, they don't think he's a fiscal conservative. They see spending going up, they saw spending go up, under his watch. He doesn't want to touch a lot of the major drivers of government spending, entitlement programs. He seems to have this ongoing bromance with Vladimir Putin. He plays footsie with dictators. He threatens to pull the U.S. out of NATO or not defend our allies. In other words, all of the things they liked about Ronald Reagan, who was a populist in his own way, they don't see out of Trump. And they don't want, they don't want to vote for Joe Biden because they don't think he's a fiscal conservative.

They don't like his national security policies. I could go on. But they don't feel like Trump is the kind of Republican. That is why they have been voting Republican all these years. So doesn't that present a problem for the party? But what do you tell those voters just that, well, anything's better than Biden? Or what's the case there? Well, certainly, as I said before, it's going to come down to,

a binary decision. You're going to have to decide, am I going to vote with Donald Trump or I'm going to stay with Joe Biden? And I think that's where people have to look at the various issues that are fundamental, they care about. Are we going to have a secure border? Are we going to address the immigration system? Or are we going to pay more or less in taxes? or I don't, I think if you look at the four years when President Trump was president, just immensely more successful from an economic and national security standpoint than the four years or three plus years with, with Joe Biden. Like I said earlier, there are things that, that I disagree with President Trump on some very strongly,

you know, particularly post-2020 election in January 6th. but ultimately it comes down to to that difference. And I think one of the keys for President Trump to win the general, first he needs to help secure the Republican base. And some of this may not be necessarily consistent with his DNA, but he needs to pick up the phone after Super Tuesday, call Nikki Haley, call Ron DeSantis, and say, look, this was a tough primary.

I appreciate that y'all ran. I need your help. And we've got too much on the line to leave Joe Biden in the White House. You know, it's just beyond him. We've got to turn this around. We've got to win the White House. We've got to win the Senate. Let's hold the House.

But, Nikki, I can't do it without you. One of the reasons I appointed you, Ambassador to the United Nations is you're tough and smart, strong. and I know I've said some things, but can we put that behind us? Can y'all help me? And I think in the same way that he talks to them, he needs to talk to Republican primary voters like me who aren't voting with him in the primary. He's got to make these Republican traditional Republican voters feel welcome, feel included. Unlike the comments he made, say, after New Hampshire, when he said,

hey, any Nikki Haley donors, you know, can't be in my political MAGA club. He's got a shift from that. He's got a shift to a general election mode where he is growing. Politics is a lot about math and it ain't real complicated math. We want to add, not subtract. The politics of addition opposed to the politics of division. And so you secure the base and then begin to think about who are those traditional Republican voters that we did get in 2020. Many of them who live in suburbia, many of them college educated, a lot of them

female voters, and places like the suburbs of Philadelphia, Milwaukee, Atlanta, Phoenix. He's got to reach out to them, and he needs to talk to them about issues that unite us, not the divisive stuff. And again, I think crime, national security, the economy, inflation, the border. Those are issues that I think, for the most part, most Americans care about. And President Trump can connect with them. I've never asked you this. Maybe it's out there publicly. But for the record, who have you been supporting the Republican primary? Well, actually, I didn't support anybody until President Trump made the comment about anybody that gives money to Nikki Haley. you know, you can't be in my club.

That's the day I sent 500 bucks through Win Red to Nikki Haley because I'm just like, this is obnoxious and it's not right. And of course, I support Nikki for lots of the reasons that you talked about before, about her being a traditional conservative Republican. But that said, as we move to the general election, I'm going to support our nominee because we've got to get Joe Biden out of the White House. I agree with the 82% of Americans who say we need a new president. All right. Let's talk again about the RNC. The other resolution that you had proposed was one that

would sort of reinforce existing rules, which is the committee's neutral until there's a presumptive nominee. Again, correct me on the technicalities, if I'm wrong, given that Trump has basically swept the primaries in caucuses so far, and that's, you know, things could change after you and I are done talking, but that's kind of what we expect on Super Tuesday. Is that proposal now something that's unnecessary? Is it fine for President Trump, former President Trump, to be treated at this point, at some point this week as the presumptive nominee? I mean, he's acting like it anyway. He's about to take over the committee prior to securing the 1,215 delegates to the convention that he needs to be the presumptive nominee. But where are you and other people that

we're concerned about RNC neutrality on this particular proposal. Yeah, thank you, David. We did offer a second resolution to the committee to R&C members that emphasized our rules, which is we have to be neutral in a primary. And we continue to still be in a primary today. Now, we'll see, I mean, Nikki Haley may decide to stay in the race. She may decide to get out. But if she gets out, then obviously President Trump doesn't have to reach the 1,215 delegates to be the presumptive nominee.

But the other way for him to, you know, to be the presumptive nominee if she doesn't get out, is to get those number of delegates. And he's going to get those here in the next couple weeks. It's just that's the reality of what's happening. So it's math. It's math. That's right. And he's winning. And that's the way it is.

And the voters are deciding. And so President Trump, as he gets to that point, it just kind of became obsolete for those of us who presented that resolution. And he wanted to stand up and say, hey, wait a minute, we can't go out and just declare President Trump the presumptive nominee or that the primary is over because really voters get to decide that. And they are deciding it. but we've decided this thing this ship has sailed and so we've really dropped that resolution and we've just focused on the legal bill resolution David. Okay. Having said that, is it counterproductive for the president to push out? And that's what he did. And I understand the niceties. But Ron McDaniel was chairman

because after he became president and presidents control the Republican National Committee, same on the Democratic side of the Democratic National Committee. Ron McDaniels, who he wanted. And so the 168 voting members of the RNC respected his wishes and voted her in. She existed this long, in part because he wanted her to continue to exist. Yes, he had all of your support, but she had all of your support, but he remained an influential voice even after he lost the presidency. We're like, what, eight, nine months from an election, and he pushes her

out to move in somebody who's otherwise, I'm sure, very capable, Michael Watley, chairman of the North Carolina party, also chief counsel at the RNC. And this has been a bit controversial, Lara Trump, his daughter-in-law. And I'm just wondering how, you know, as somebody who has worked at the committee for almost 20 years, and I think, you know, I say worked, you don't get paid, you don't get your travel paid. Nobody has to. feel sorry for you, but I think people should know. You're traveling to Houston this week. This is not a paid junket. This comes out of your pocket. All of the extra work you do is an RNC member. I'm sure there are benefits. You're

not drawing a salary. So Trump decides to fire Ronna McDaniel, and I'm sure you guys will vote in Michael Watley. Tell me if you don't think that'll happen. Tell me if you think you'll have token opposition. But what about this sort of wholesale takeover of the committee eight months before an election, unless there's something we're not aware of, there wasn't some sort of egregious mismanagement or graft going on. Yeah. So the reality is whether Romney, McCain, George W. Bush, when they become the presumptive nominee, they typically, almost always, they're going to send in their staff to help run

the building. And, you know, their fingers are going to be on every decision that's made at the R&C. And so that's the normal thing. So Chris Lasavita is going to come over and manage the day-to-day operations of the R&C. By the way, that's the normal part of this. He's a, he's a very good operative. Yeah. So the unusual part of this, and it's the first time this has happened since Eisenhower, that we've pushed out an RNC chair in a presidential election year. And so there's certain risk with that. It's certainly a distraction. But the president, President Trump certainly has the political power and influence on the RNC to do whatever he wants. And that's apparent with him pushing her out and, and sort of got pushed out with.

There is Drew McKissick, the co-chair. And so his two candidates for those jobs are Michael Watley, the North Carolina Republican Party chairman, who's a good state chairman. And then Laura Trump, wife of his son, Eric. And she's newer to this. And so she'll have some learning curve. I think she could be a really effective fundraiser. She just picks up the phone. you figure anybody's going to take her call.

So just make the ask. And I hope she really focuses on that. We probably need to raise $250 million this year, David, to really compete. I want to ask you about that. But isn't that weird to have a nominee put a family member in? I mean, that's got to make some people uncomfortable. Or maybe it doesn't because maybe because of the kind of support Trump has and the involvement that his family has had in his political,

I wanted to say enterprise, but it sounds like a pejorative, in his political campaigns, that it's just, it's what happens. Or are people quietly wondering if that means that elements of the RNC's mission are going to suffer because even though Chris Lhavita has said, we're not using any of the RNC's money for the former president's legal bills,

And when push comes to shove, of course, the presidential nominee is always important, but it's going to be particularly important because there's a familiar loyalty there, right? I mean, that's why people always get uncomfortable when a president hires a family member or an elected official as a relative who's a lobbyist. I mean, I've seen big stories written about members of Congress who hire friends and family to work on their little campaigns. And here we have the national party with its official number two figure being the president's daughter-in-law. Are people quietly weird about that? Are they like, hey, it's cool. Laura Trump could be really helpful and we're used to working with the president's family. And so it's fine.

I hear both from R&C members. I think there are people who like, you know what? If that's what President Trump wants to do, that's fine by me. You know, they don't seem to care. And there are other people who think, well, does she have the experience? to perform at that level. And I think that's where Laura Trump has just got to show folks

what she can do, that she's going to work really hard. And like I say, my advice to her would be focus on fundraising. You know, there's just about no wealthy person in the country that won't take your phone call. Pick up the phone.

Go call them. We got $250 million to raise. You know, that's the best thing you can do to help us win the White House back. But also keep in mind, it's not just the White House. It's the Senate, the House, the state, and, and local races as well. The outgoing administration, I feel like if anybody has a right to be really pissed off about this,

it's true McKissick. Loyal Trump soldier, effective chairman of the South Carolina Party, by all accounts, hasn't done anything wrong, but, you know, the chairman's going to become a man, no longer be a woman. He had to go, even if it wasn't Laura Trump. But let me ask you, What did Bronna McDaniel do that was so wrong or so or that was so incompetent that she had to be pushed out? And here are the two arguments I get, right? On the one hand, Trump loyalists and other populist Republicans blame her for a lack of fundraising or a ground game that, you know, at least under Rhine's Prebus was pretty darn good, a data analytics program that was pretty darn good, that's gone awry. And so it's all her fault. She's got to go.

Then I talked to other people who have basically told me in these people in Republican circles that say, yeah, maybe she wasn't always perfect. But she did pretty good. And the truth is, when you can't fire the coach, in this case, the coach being former President Donald Trump, you fire the team. And so she had to go for that reason.

and that any issues they're having with fundraising or how they manage their ground game are not going to change or better or worse, as long as the same regime is really in charge and that same regime is really Trump. Since, as you and I have established, and we both know,

but people may not realize, the UNC doesn't recruit candidates, it doesn't set messaging, it doesn't set the legislative agenda. It takes what it's given and works with it. Obviously, some chairman have been better than others. you've known some really good chairman in your life. So have I.

We've seen others not so effective. So, I mean, is Ron a getting what she deserves here? Or is she just getting the short end of the stick because people needed a scapegoge? Well, I think people have seen in the Trump White House when he was president that, you know, people come and go. And there are changes that happen. And, you know, I'm sure some of them, good reasons and some of them may be not as good a reason. Um, you know, ultimately, the RNC's job is to win elections. And we won the White House in 16.

Then in 18, we lost the house. And then in 20, we lost the White House and we lost the Senate. Um, in 22, I will say, we underperform expectations anyway. Um, and Ronna was a chair during that time. And does she have to answer for that? Yeah. I mean, I think that's part. of it. Is that fair? No, probably not. The reality is, in my view, the reason that we had trouble in 18 and 22 had a lot more to do with Donald Trump than with Ronald McDaniel. That said, Donald Trump is going to, the voters are deciding overwhelmingly Republican primary voters that they want Donald Trump to be the nominee. They want him to get back to the White House. And so from an RNC perspective,

that means Donald Trump and his team get to have a great influence on the R&C. And so it's their decision. And the R&C members are going to go along with that. And so this Friday, we will elect Donald Trump's pick Michael Whiteley to be the chair and we'll elect Laura Trump to be the co-chair. Will there be a handful of people that maybe vote no, maybe? but I promise it'll be a handful. So they're going to win. Is it, you know, Rana's in the big leagues, and that's just kind of how it rolls.

And same for Drew McKissick. But I will say to Rana's credit and to Drew McKissick's credit is, you know, they both intend to continue working hard to help make sure that 2024 cycle is successful that we win the White House of Senate and hold the House. and do well at state and local races. And I was, I mean, we've got a great opportunity in this political environment, including this Harvard Harris poll. I'm kind of shifting on you.

But there are a couple of points that I want to make is there are a lot of Democrat, traditionally Democrat voter that are not happy with Joe Biden and who when asked in the poll, What did you think of the job that Donald Trump did when he was president? 64% of 18 to 25-year-old said they thought Donald Trump did a good job. So that means Trump has got a real opportunity with younger voters. Who over the last couple cycles had been heavy Democrat,

40% of African-Americans said Donald Trump did a good job when he was president. Huge opportunity for Donald Trump. He got, I think, 8% of the black vote in, 08, maybe 12% in 20, in 16, I said 08. But 57% of Hispanics, 43% of Asians. So Donald Trump's got a big opportunity. He's got to go out and reach out to these people. Again, it's the politics of addition.

We need more voters. We need more to increase our factions and coalition of voters. Well, we'll see if Donald Trump is listening. I want to close this conversation, getting back to where we started, and that is, I've never seen you this outspoken. I guess I've probably known you and covered you vis-a-vis your work at the RNC for at least the past 15 years. You usually, you know, walk softly and wield a big proposal, let's say. You're quiet. You're not too out front. What's changed for you? And also, there's been talk that getting rid of Rona McDaniel isn't

enough. They'd like to see a purge of all the 168, meaning the voting members of the RNC, who aren't Trump loyalists. This is coming not necessarily from Trump at the moment, but from people who support him. Why so outspoken now? And are you worried about a broader purge? These are elected positions in each state, activists involved in the Republican Party

through county parties and central committees and things of that nature. Go and vote for their RNC committee man and committee woman and party chairman in many cases. Why now, for you and also concern about a broader purge? Yeah, so the R&C's mission over the last 168 years has been winning elections. And if we don't win elections, we can't affect public policy.

And I just felt like we weren't living by the rules. We weren't being neutral in the primary. And we weren't focused on our core mission, which is winning elections. And so I just felt like, we can't just sit here silently. And I know the Trump campaign might not be happy with some of the things that we're saying, but they need to be said. And so I took that political risk and stood up with some of my R&C friends and comrades. And so we had brought forth these resolutions because we felt like, even though we knew that they would never pass before the full R&C, that this really needs to be a discussion about

what's the R&C's job and how are we going about this? And so I felt it was important. And then your second question, you know, are there people trying to replace R&C members? There are always people trying to replace R&C members. the average state party chairman's tenure on the RNC is 18 months. And it's been that way going, you know, the 20 years I've been on the committee. I have been on the committee a long time, 19 years. And some would say, well, that's 19 years too long.

And, you know, certainly what I'm doing and talking about and challenging other R&C members and even to some extent the Trump campaign, may put a target on me and make it harder for me to get reelected to the R&C. And that's fine. I feel like if you get elected to be a leader, you ought to lead. And I think you ought to be able to stand up for your principles. And if you're not going to do that, what's the point? Henry Barber is the RNC committee man from Mississippi.

Henry, thanks again so much for joining us on the dispatch podcast. Thanks, David. Thank you. Thank you.