The Dispatch Podcast - Some Like It On the Trail

Episode Date: June 26, 2020

Astead Herndon, national politics reporter at The New York Times, joins Sarah and Steve to discuss his reporting from the president's rally in Tulsa to the Biden campaign and veepstakes. Show Notes: -Astead's work at the Times -Follow Astead on Twitter Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Welcome to our special Friday Dispatch podcast. I'm your host, Sarah Isgir, joined by the inimitable Steve Hayes. This podcast is brought to you by The Dispatch. Visit The Dispatch.com to see our full slate of newsletters and podcasts and make sure to subscribe to this podcast so you never miss an episode. And we'll hear a little later from our sponsor today, Gabby. Today we're talking to Asted Herndon, National Political Reporter for the New York Times, who's been on the 2020 trail. We'll ask him about attending the president's most recent rally, the Biden campaign and how they're thinking about his vice presidential selection, and whether the Trump campaign can still appeal to black voters. Let's dive right in. We're here today with Astead Herndon, National Political Reporter for the New York. New York Times, who's been covering the 2020 race and was most recently in Tulsa. So we're definitely going to talk about that. Why don't we just start with some of your background, how you got here to the 2020 race?

I know you started at the Boston Globe, City Hall, and all the way to the campaign trail. Yeah. I'm from outside Chicago. I went to school in Wisconsin and got an internship of the Boston Globe when I was done with school. and the globe was great in a lovely place. And I was originally covering crime and then eventually local politics. There was a city councilor named Ayano Presley there,

which is a little more famous now. As are you. And so that was kind of my initial local politics, but I was trying to do things on the trail. This was during the 2015, early 2016. So I would go up to New Hampshire on the weekends and try to write stories and basically do the stories I now realize that the national reporters really the kind of one-off stories that folks don't like doing.

But at the time, I was just so, I was just very eager to like follow around the candidate for a day for the Labor Day parade or throughout some part of New Hampshire. And actually ended up that when the election happened, the Globe didn't actually have a plan for the D.C. Bureau. I mean, it was, they were kind of assuming a transition. with Hillary Clinton, that was going to be a kind of calm, normal presidential transition where very little would happen. And then all of a sudden, this massive sea change election happens and the Trump drama ensues.

And so being the youngest with no kids and no life, basically, I was told to just go to D.C. Right away. And so I spent two years with the Globe in the White House. So, you know, very classic, like briefing room, Sean Spicer, erred to these scaramoochee stuff. But I really like the trail and more of the ground stuff. And so the opportunity came to come to the times and then initially covered the midterms and then joined the election team that was kind of across the country, traveling and such. And I think that's really where my kind of political heart is, is kind of marrying the kind of top-down policy stuff. with how folks are feeling on the ground.

And I think a good way to do that is through elections. And so, yeah, that's kind of the story. Well, I feel like we have to start with Tulsa, even though I want to spend so much time. I mean, you've written about so many of these issues. But you just spent, you said, four days in Tulsa for the president's first rally since March, talking to voters on the ground

and in the atmosphere of, you know, these national protests around George Floyd, Tulsa Juneteenth are really iconic parts of the story of race in America. What did you find most surprising in your reporting down there? Yeah, I mean, I really found, I know the president has tried to say that it was protests that kept people away on that day, but what I actually found was the inverse, that the kind of liberal community, black community, the kind of backlash to Trump that we were expecting on Saturday, they basically took the posture of ignoring it.

And going into that day, there were very concerted calls from community leaders saying, hey, let's not go down there and fight with the Trump supporters. Let's stay away. Let's stay in our homes. And we had our day on Juneteenth, and we'll have our day in November. But let's kind of cede the city to them, which is what made the kind of visual images or kind of the lack of, you know, not getting the numbers that they thought they would, even more striking to me is that they were not facing massive backlash.

I mean, I walked through the public entrance to get in, and it was a breeze. You know, you will go right through. And it was no kind of like pushback or anything like that. And so that's what actually I found most interesting was that Tulsa was so, had so much pride around Juneteenth and around its history that they did not want to feel like that was defiled with a clash with Trump supporters that would define the weekend until they stayed away. And I think what you saw then was then two separate days.

You had a Friday, the kind of celebration that was that was big and had an anti-Trump sentiment to it. And then you had Saturday, which was the kind of seeded to Trump supporters, but frankly didn't live up to the expectation. Steve? in your in your conversations um on rally day with trump supporters um the ones who showed up my assumption is that the ones who showed up were the sort of hardest of hardcore when you talked to them about why they made the decision to come what they tell you yeah at trump rallies you get to

die hard and this was even i would say even a uh as you said a hard more hardcore crowd than even normal. When you ask why they come, they saw it as a act of defiance, sometimes from their own states who they were upset that they were on lockdown. And sometimes to a Democratic Party or, you know, I talked to a number of people who come from in a blue states. And they were saying, you know, oh, my governor has locked the state down. And I find that appalling. So when Trump announced this, I decided I'm going to come down and kind of celebrate my freedoms, right? And so, you know, the first person I talked to was a man from Minneapolis who had driven down the entire, driven down. Another person I talked to was in Denver who was complaining about their liberal mayor.

And so you would hear that consistently, that the attendance at the event was not only a pushback against kind of Democratic Party, Joe Biden and the like, but was a pushback against their local governments who they still found things. like mask wearing, social distancing, limited businesses to be a political act that they were revolting against, even as the virus persists, not only across the country, but particularly in Oklahoma where cases are rising.

What was really driving their enthusiasm for Trump? Or was this, you know, as you said, sort of anti-lockdown? Do they have complaints about the president? Or is this just pure enthusiasm? At this crowd, you're going to get few complaints about the president. And so I would say that the evidence that, you know, he has enraged some

and kind of even pushed away some of his own supporters is, there's a lot around us. And even it might be we could point to the lack of people who came out, but it's not on the type of people who do. They are kind of the true believers. And so what they would say in terms of the enthusiasm front is, You know, you got to, you know, Trump supporters live in a world of grievance. And that is one in which the president is under siege wrongly. The country is under siege from not only liberals, but kind of undeserving outsiders.

And they see the president in this administration as the block between them and a changing country. And I think that under that view, there's very little he can do wrong or go too far to what they view has saved them from that. And so that's why under the kind of diehard vision, he is a, he is a block from an attack on America and on their ideals. But we should make clear that that is only a portion of the people who helped him get elected in 2016. And he also benefited from a different type of voter who believed in the compromise, who believed in the kind of businessman acumen and who did not like his opponent in 16. And in the midterms and in the polling now, we're just really seeing that he has not been able to capture that person back. Yeah, can I follow up on that? I think that's such a really interesting and important dynamic to this election as we see it right now.

and as it's likely to unfold between now and November, you look back to 2016 and obviously one of the things that drove support to Donald Trump was the presence in the race of Hillary Clinton. You know, she had incredibly high negatives. People had very firm opinions about her. Republicans had long detested her. I mean, in some cases, really going back decades. I think she made herself both with her comments and with her conduct and her conduct and office a very easy target for conservative skeptics. Joe Biden doesn't really bring that level of

antipathy, I think, from most Republicans. And I saw, you tweeted the other day this question. You said, one of my favorite questions in talking to Trump supporters is, who do you hate least Clinton, Obama, or Biden? And you said it's usually Joe Biden that they mentioned. Why do they say Joe Biden. Yeah, it's funny because, you know, I think that there are a lot of things wrapped into one. So I think it's important to talk about identity here, right? That they, that Hillary Clinton was facing a level of misogyny. Barack Obama faced the level of racism and Joe Biden is someone who benefits from facing neither of those things. But there is also a kind of general likeability that he has crafted over the last 30 years. I mean, you hear people often talk about the

lack of enthusiasm for Biden, which is true. But what he does have that is unique is a broad base of kind of likeability, you know, and that could get you far. I mean, enthusiasm doesn't get you double votes, you know. It doesn't matter to the extent that, you know, you're still able to drive folks out. And I would see this in the primary all the time. Did people come out were Biden voters breaking down the doors? No. But when people talked about who they would be fine with, if their favorite did not win, that person was Joe Biden. And that ended up really helping him in that last swing as he was able to make that electability argument that he was the best person suited to win. So I think that there's a couple things that lead them to that

question. It is it is upon a privilege of Biden. It is a political message that he has crafted that has specifically reached out to kind of working class across the aisle. And there is also, I think, the personal story of Joe Biden. No one accuses Joe Biden and not caring, you know. And there is a kind of universal recognition that he has been through a lot and that he is someone who has given a lot to the country. I think that like one of the things that this election does is expose kind of some of the coded art. arguments folks had against Hillary Clinton. There's a type of person who said they did not want to vote for her because she was an

establishment figure, because she was a Washington insider. And a lot of those people are happily voting for Joe Biden right now, who is even more of an establishment figure in a longer time, Washington insider. So some of this is really perception and not the kind of reality of his record. But I think that that, I think people do kind of flatten Joe Biden's real political skill, which is one that even Bernie Sanders wants to get out of the race because he kind of likes the guy.

And that's one that he has benefited from in the primary and now in the general. So looking ahead then to what Joe Biden has been doing in his campaign, but what he needs to do between now and November, you know, the big thing that a lot of us are watching is the VP pick. And he said that he will pick a woman.

There's now an assumption that he will pick a woman of color. you're talking to Biden supporters, you're talking to the Biden campaign. Kamala Harris, Val Demings, Tammy Duckworth. What are the pros and cons? What are people thinking behind the scenes? And what actually could help his campaign? Yeah, the VP pick is one.

I kind of call it like the most sportsy of political reporter because there's so many narratives involved with it. But like we have to start with a couple truth, which is that we do not have a lot of, evidence that the VP pick matters electorally, and more specifically, we don't have a lot of clear evidence that voters themselves care as much as the kind of political class does. You know, the Times just released our big polling this week, and today there was a story that went up specifically about VP pick. And one of the things my colleagues pulled out from the data is just

how much the majority of voters don't think race should be a huge factor, really don't have a preference for any person and largely find his choices to be kind of not nationally known and don't have strong feelings about them. And so I think that, you know, we can start right there and just saying from a baseline perspective, the evidence that this pick will make or break him with on the ground with people isn't that strong. What we do, though, is that the political class, the kind of Washington, the folks Joe Biden talks to, have invested a lot in this choice. and are kind of using it as a proxy for their political vision

of where they think the Democratic Party should go. So you have people saying he needs to choose a black woman because of that question of representation and because you need to point the party in a direction where those people will be leading it in the future. There's folks who are advocating for someone like Elizabeth Warren

because they say that it will be a marriage of the kind of moderate and progressive wings of the party. I, you know, what the Biden campaign which is very mum on this question. What we do know is that they are vetting folks across the board. They've started doing kind of first round interviews. I don't think that the idea that he will choose a woman of color is set in stone.

But what we do have is just a shortening list of white woman options. Obviously, Amy Klobuchar pulled out last week and urged him to choose a woman of color. And that was partly because her own stock had fallen after the Minneapolis protest. or her prosecutor record was called into question. And so we do not have, the list is increasingly, you know, topped by women of color, but that does, I just don't think that, you know, this is still kind of a top seat, turnby affair. And so I would not be surprised to see even a name like Gretchen Whitmer

or someone, Tammy Baldwin in Wisconsin, emerge as we get closer to August, which is when he said that he would make that choice. To what extent is Biden's age a factor in this specific decision and the relative experience or inexperience of those who are on his list? I mean, I think there's a case to be made that because he's older, and certainly the Trump campaign we know is going to make an issue not, I mean, they already are, not necessarily of his age as age, but his faculties and suggest that he's too old to do the job.

Is there a huge risk in picking somebody who's, you know, not terribly experienced who hasn't been around the national political scene very long? Or could he pick somebody who's relatively young or relatively new on the national scene? Yeah, I mean, I think the Biden campaign has to decide what to prioritize and what we know from him and someone who has. has gone through that process, as he has repeatedly said that the biggest factor for him is being what he calls simpatico or like a connected,

feels like the person is on his team and fully with him, because he feels like that was his big role for President Obama. So some of that is things that we just don't know. We just don't know who's going to click in an interview. We don't know kind of the extent of the personal connections and relationships between them, even though we know that he is doing some personal talking, every, you know, kind of phone conversations, text conversations with some of the leading contenders.

But it's not as if many of these people are folks, he has a long-term, a deep relationship with that puts them over another. To the question of age, I mean, I think that that is forefront, not to be, you know, kind of, not even in the morbid sense, but in the, you know, Biden as a bridge to the Democratic Party of the future. I think it's going to be a real connective theme of the potential administration. And so one of the things that the first kind of choice and what sets up that future is going to be this selection. Whoever is chosen becomes the immediate kind of likely, the moderate standard bearer in face of the party, immediate sky high name recognition that could impact the 2024 race

or, you know, if he serves two terms or runs again or, you know, obviously, presuming a winning November of 2020-8 race. And so that person gets such a boost that I think, excuse me, I think it's important not to just think of it as a governing partner, but as a selection that kind of kickstarts the Democratic future. You mentioned the New York Times-Syana College poll that came out and a lot of interesting numbers in there, not a lot good for the president's re-election.

14 points spread nationally between Biden and Trump. The swing state numbers were arguably even worse for the president, states that he had won all favoring Biden, those swing states, Arizona, Wisconsin, Michigan, Florida. What, though? So that's all good news for the Biden campaign. And yet, if you're the Biden campaign, there's got to be a number of things that you're worried about when you talk to his senior advisors

what are they concerned about these days yeah i will say that um you know no one thinks that they have it in the bag and i think the kind of figures kind of looming question here is access to voting period i mean we don't even know what the kind of conditions of november will look like we don't know what states what kind of procedures they're going to do will this be a mail-in ballot election? Will states like Georgia have the type of lines we saw over in their primary race that lasted blocks and blocks and five hours and six hours for people to get a ballot? In those critical states, Wisconsin's another one where the Republican-led legislature has been trying to block mail-in voting. That's still, from a Biden perspective or a journalistic perspective,

a prerequisite to even really manifesting these numbers that we're seeing. There is no question that there's a lot of good news in terms of what type of voter has been pushed away from the president at the moment. What there is still a big question around is whether they're going to be able to capitalize on that, particularly as we get kind of debates and there's a lot of like kind of twist and turns to go forward. But even more so, what state will our democracy be in by, no, November and how easy will it be for them to get their voters to get their kind of electorate to the voting booths or access to the ballot?

That's still a huge question, particularly in those swing states. If you look at, just to pick up on that point specifically, you look at the results this week. We've seen some delays in the final confirmation. of the reporting results in both New York and Kentucky, as they count absentee, and mail ballots. And as you see states try to figure out exactly how they're going to conduct these elections in November, what's the likelihood that we know who the winner is on November 3rd? Is that possible that this will be election week instead of election day? It is very possible.

And I think that we should say that as much as we can to kind of calibrate people's expectations, that to the extent that we do have mail-in ballots, it's going to take a long time to get these things counted. And, you know, I think that it's important to not just, like, for Democrats to also know that, you know, I was thinking back to Kentucky this week. So much was made out of how there was only two polling locations, when in reality, that was a deal struck by Republicans and Democrats to great, expand mail-in ballots and to have large polling places that were, you know, big enough to hold the state fair, the football stadium that houses the football stadium for the state. And also, and that, for most perspectives, that worked out pretty well. Now, that has meant that

we don't know the results of the key races there yet. But that was a kind of example of a Democratic governor and the Republican Secretary of State kind of working in coalition. That's the type of stuff that we are that I think most voting experts and voting rights folks want to see going ahead in November, but we don't exactly know that's going to be the case. In terms of election day 2020, we may not know results unless it's a blowout. If it becomes clear in certain States based on the in-person ballots and what we know that that someone is ahead or someone might win. That is a, that's a scenario that I see people saying, oh, you can be able to project on that

night. And we have results as close as we did in 2016. This could take some time. How much do you hear voters talking about the Senate races right now? I would imagine that, you know, in Washington at least, there's a growing feeling like the Senate really could flip to. to Democratic control in 2021 and could leave a full Democratic,

you know, presidency, Senate, and House. Are voters interested in Senate races yet? Or is that really something we're going to have to wait until Labor Day or after or ever to see what's really going on? Yeah. I mean, I think it depends on the state. I think that for the states where those critical Senate races are happening,

do you see higher levels of engagement in the races at this front. But, you know, to be honest, it's pretty, for regular folks, it's pretty normal to not be engaged in the Senate race at this point. You know, they still have a summer to tune in. The big spending hasn't really started yet from the campaigns. And so while there's a growing sense in Washington because of the big money folks are raising, because of the numbers in the polling that Democrats have real shot at the Senate this year, that hasn't really translated into like it being the main talking point of certain state. So I was just in Georgia, a state that has two Senate seats up this year. And Democrats

are certainly invested as they select their candidates to be the opponents as they go through the primary. But they know that this is a long haul. In Georgia, in the kind of jungle primary system that they have, that won't even be solved in November. You'll likely have people who don't have 50% votes and you'll have to have another runoff in January. So this is going to be something that takes a long time. And I think from a voter perspective, they're barely tuned into the general election. The Senate's got a couple months. It strikes me as healthy for the country that people aren't obsessing about politics as we added to summer. Yeah, normal people triumph. I like it. To go back and obsess about politics for a minute. The, you know,

what are the, one of the big questions coming out of the Democratic primary, particularly as Joe Biden sort of surged past Bernie Sanders, who looked for a time like he was, you know, the most likely Democratic nominee, was whether Bernie Sanders supporters and other, I would say, hard left, progressive, socialist, Democrat types would rally to Joe Biden. And I wonder if in your reporting, you've seen enough to begin to answer that question yet. Yeah. This is another thing that I think has been really impacted by a narrative where the data actually isn't all that great. So in 2016, there was a kind of widespread perception, helped fuel through media that Bernie Sanders supporters did not support Hillary Clinton in the general election.

And while that could be true from like an individual. or kind of Twitter noise perspective, the crossover rate that we know from data was actually like very normal in terms of drop off from primary to general. And there was not, you know, I saw, I remember once that there was more Clinton supporters who voted for John McCain in 2008

than there was Bernie Sanders supporters who voted for Hillary Clinton, who voted for Donald Trump in 2016. And so the evidence that kind of the most progressive wing of the party has not come around and will not back the Democratic nominee, isn't all that strong. And I think that comes from a place where there's lots of different types of Bernie supporters in the way that I think that we should be clear about. It's not just DSA, socialist, kind of ardent,

burn down the Democratic Party progressives. The reason why he wins a place like Nevada is because he did very well out in the West with immigrant populations, that he did, he did fairly well with the type of non-ideological. I like that he's been consistent on the issues type of voter. I would talk to people who are choosing between Bernie and Mike Bloomberg or Bernie and Joe Biden because of just the sense of strong conviction and nice guy that was very much removed from the type of issues that we associate with Bernie most specifically. And so those types of supporters are backing Joe Biden and the numbers tell us that. Does, but what Joe Biden does where he is lukewarm, and I think this speaks to the problem you're talking about, is among

younger people. That's even as his polling lead has increased, we have not really seen younger voters. So I'm thinking 18 to 29 in our polling really go rave about Joe Biden. The numbers are pretty tepid. And so if he wants to achieve that kind of Barack Obama-style coalition, that's a group he has to speak to. If he wants to be that transition to the Democratic Party of the future, he needs to embrace some of those big changes that younger voters want to see. That's not, though, a prerequisite for him winning, particularly if he continues to do well

with kind of seniors and other populations in the way that he looks like he's doing that. Let's take a quick break and hear from our sponsor this week. week, Gabby, we're all looking for ways to save money, especially now. When's the last time you looked at how much you're spending every month on car insurance, though, on homeowners insurance? Now's the time to check out Gabby and see about getting a lower rate for the exact same coverage you already have. Gabby takes the pain out of shopping for insurance by giving you an apples-to-apples comparison of your current coverage with 40 of the top insurance providers, like progressive, nationwide, travelers. Just link your current insurance account in about two minutes. You'll be

to see quotes for the exact same coverage you currently have. Gabby customers save $825 per year on average. If they can't find you savings, they'll let you know so you can relax knowing you have the best rate out there. And they'll never sell your info. So no annoying spam or robocalls. This is like kayak. It's like Travelocity. But for insurance, only point is to save you money. It's totally free to check your rate and there's no obligation. Take two minutes right now or after the podcast. See how much you can save on your car and homeowners insurance. Go to gabby.com slash dispatch. That's gabbi.com slash dispatch. Gabby.com slash dispatch. Police reform looks like it is dead in Congress as of today, at least. The House passed their

version. Senate Democrats blocked the Senate Republicans version and more or less both sides are saying they're not willing to come to the table. And the president, at least according the source to the Daily Beast, quote, he's done with it. Which side is hurt more by a failure to do anything on police reform, given the current climate in the country? That's a good question. I mean, I think they're both hurt, honestly. I think that they're hurt for different reasons, though.

And I think you have to take a kind of short term and long term view. In the short term, Republicans are, have. have a issue with an only minority voters who have increasingly drifted from them, but a kind of white college educated voter that we saw in the midterms, who is motivated by these issues. I would ask folks to stay tuned for another piece of the Times polling that we're writing about now that specifically looks at protesting and police and how voters are reacting to that. And it's not just minorities. It is an increasing sect of the white electorate who is saying, hey, something needs to be done.

I think that it's not hard to see Republicans, you know, a non-Trump Republican Party responding to some of those kind of minimal concerns and a way to reach back and reach out to those voters. And that's something that I do think that they're not helping their case with them by not doing anything. But I also think that people, the Democratic base is increasingly frustrated with the Democratic Party. parties kind of willingness to talk about the issues, kind of verbally commit and not follow through. I think this particularly speaks to the younger populations distaste with kind of democratic politics as usual. They see as like a rhetorical backing of Black Lives Matter, but not really interested in the kind of structural change. So I wrote a story about how Biden and other Democrats has gotten very good at what naming and calling out systemic racism, but they're frankly

presenting solutions that are not systemic in nature. I think that that's going to have a long-term effect. I think that that's going to have an effect on how this population that they do need to kind of bring in for the future shapes and molds their politics. But the reason that they feel that Democrats in Washington feel comfortable in rejecting the Republican bill, as they think in the short term, they're on good polling footing, that people don't want just small fixes and that Republicans aren't good faith actors here. And that might be a good bet. Yeah, but it's how discouraging is that. I mean, as somebody who thinks that some of these, some of these things, you know, some of the ideas have merit. You know, I think there's a,

there's a reasonable argument to be made that Republicans took too long to, to come to see some of these things. I would point out that Democrats didn't implement a lot of these reforms when they had the White House and controlled Congress either. But now, you know, it seems to me if you look at what was in the Republican Senate bill and you look at the arguments that Tim Scott made, it's a pretty good case to be made for some incremental reforms that are now just being thrown out because, you know, I think you accurately suggest, I don't want to put words in your mouth, but you accurately suggest that the politics are better to block it, which is really, I mean, I'm not naive, I understand that this happens, but it's sort of a

sad statement about where we are. Yeah, I mean, I think, I mean, in terms of like morality sat That is always president of Washington. I mean, I think that the argument from Democrats was that the incremental reforms were not, we're going to, we're going to block the House version of the bigger concerns. And so they did not want to give in to the Scott bill and have the House version rejected. But as you say, they're comfortable doing that because they think the politics is on their side. Who is right in that is like not something I really know, but I do think that they are, this is another example of what is, on this issue specifically, both sides have really bad records of following through on chances to make reforms. And that's true in the national level. That's also really true on the local level. Democratic mayors have been in the pockets of police unions and the police departments for a long time. And so as, you know, the D.C. mayor is painting Black Lives Matter on the plaza.

She's also increasing the police budget in a way that, like, is a kind of two-sided view of how you tackle the issue. And so I think that there's a lot of blame to go around when we talk about race and policing. So you mentioned black voters becoming frustrated, particularly young black voters, frustrated with the Democratic Party. And there was something we were seeing from 2016 up until coronavirus really become a national story, which was black men in particular being more open to supporting the president. Again, not in such huge wave of numbers,

but it was noticeable, especially compared to other populations of color and black women, for instance, that black men voted for the president three times as much as black women had. Is that a trend that is going to continue into November or did the virus and George Floyd and the current mood and the president's response, is that retreading that ground? Yeah, I think this is a, this was something that was always anecdotally true for me before I even knew about the number. So, I mean, you can talk in reporting about black voters.

I, you know, I'm always, it's always fascinating how, you know, you would meet a couple. and the man was always more sympathetic to Trump and, like, whether, and very rarely voted for him, but still had a level of sympathy and interest in the president that's almost universally rejected by black women. I think it's important to characterize, like even though black men have voted for, as you said, three times more than black women, that is still a way lower percentage than almost any other group. But it is where the White House thinks that they can make gains. So when the White House talks about improving its numbers with black voters, they don't think that they're going to win the majority of them.

They think that they can muddy up Biden and make kind of concerted inroads, particularly with black men, that will matter and like a marginal portion in the electoral college states. That's why you frankly saw, I mean, this ain't feels like ages ago. But that's when when you saw the president initially called after the death, call for a federal investigation into George Floyd's death, call it the tragedy. We were told that that was part of the White House's playbook to look like it was being responsive on these issues. Back when the economy was doing well, he would particularly tell the numbers of black unemployment as a way in here. That has been totally and completely upended in the last month

with the way the White House has handled the protest and has kind of in some of the case, you know, the president inciting kind of shooting about looting and the focus that they had put on that, the voices he has amplified who have, who have, you know, derided George Floyd in his death. I think that that is going to be the lasting impression of his handling of this so much so that his initial calling to an investigation is something that folks won't remember. And that is indicative of this White House's efforts with black motor outreach. It is hard to take them at good faith because the kind of baseline is never met consistently. So you can see someone like Tim Scott, who has a pretty good reputation among black communities, even democratic ones

in South Carolina, because there is a tradition of conservatives, even in southern states, acknowledging racial differences in history and offering a kind of small government bootstrap solution. But it does not, the key is that it is still a hearing of folks' pain and an acknowledgement of that. That is not something this White House is doing. And if they refuse to, as they have done, that is the baseline for being able to win back some of these folks. And so it's hard to take them that seriously, even though they continually tell us in media and continually highlight their efforts to reach out to black folks. Yeah, I mean, just to pick up on what you said there is that, you know, Tim Scott has been a pretty innovative and creative policy thinker, I would say, on these issues, but also much more broadly.

You know, he's somebody who, when you sit down and spend time with him, he surprises you by the arguments you make. You think, I haven't heard that particular policy proposal before. And it's clear that he puts a lot of time and attention. on the things that he proposes. And he's an active legislator, unlike a lot of members of both parties who are primarily there to be on cable news.

And I think what's happened is, unfortunately, the White House has sort of obscured his good work with the antics that you've seen, whether you're talking about Lafayette Park, whether you're talking about, you know, the president tweeting out pictures of black people, hurting white people or going after white people, you know, the kinds of things that Trump has done,

which not only, you know, overshadow his own language from the speech that he gave after the George Floyd killing, but have this effect of just casting this huge shadow over everything the Republicans make. I think that there's no way they can make a positive, or it's very difficult for them to make a positive policy-based argument when you have the kind of antics that we've seen from the White House. The, the, is it, is it possible for, uh, the Trump White House to make a concerted appeal to pick up on, on Sarah's point, um, to black voters in heading towards November? Or, or is what, is what we're seeing from them enough to, to really minimize or make

that a much, uh, harder hill to climb? Yeah, I mean, I think that there's anything is always possible. and I'm sure at some point we will see some effort. But at this point, we have so much evidence on this White House and on this president as a person that it's very hard for me to see it because it's not something he's been consistently interested in doing. What he has been interested in is exactly the opposite

in using kind of white grievance as a tool to stoke his base and using kind of like incendiary language, sometimes racist language, when he believes it politically benefits him. And so that's, to me, It is hard to think that there can be an effort when the evidence is so overwhelming that his only interest is in doing the contrary. But we know that, you know, folks, even on the Republican side, think that the kind of immigration message can speak to black voters. You know, I've heard people say that the kind of, even the, like, more nativist, the streak of the kind of the anti-immigrant message is something that they believe that can have resonance with particularly black men around.

jobs and economy and the impact of immigration on that. But you mentioned Tim Scott. I mean, I also think of, I was just in Georgia with Doug Collins, who's running for that Senate race there and is a, is leading the Republican incumbent. And one of the things that struck me as he's someone who wrote the first step back, the criminal justice reform that was signed by President Trump, and is using that and using John Lewis, who is a personal friend of his in ads in Georgia, is not running from the question of criminal justice, but it's saying, hey, it needs change. I was helping lead change

and is running those ads in Atlanta. That's a kind of Republican, and that's someone who is deeply conservative and it's kind of seen as a Trump model, but that Trump model does not include the language we've seen from the president. I think that that is going to be an interesting thing to look at for the Republican Party going forward, is what kind of version of Trumpism wins out, even if this president loses in November. Because what we do know is that the president is not only kind of tarring up Tim Scott and others, but really dragging down the Senate candidates who are trying to stay away from that.

And so it's making it very difficult on them to kind of square his base and what they need to do to grow the coalition. If that doesn't work out in November, what does the party do? I think is just a major question. And with that, I've just got a few, let's call them, you know, lightning round questions for you. Yeah. Okay, your Twitter feed is one of my favorites.

It's the tweets I look forward to, I think, most every day. You and Jane Koston, to be honest. She's great. She's great. I mean, you have over 150,000 Twitter followers. and your tweets don't go through the normal editorial process in the New York Times

that your stories go through. Yeah. So how have you, I don't know, cultivated your Twitter personality, how you decide what's appropriate, you know, you're a New York Times reporter and that comes with a certain amount of weight, but you're also a Twitter personality, frankly.

How do you balance that? You know, this is, I have, I was actually just talking to my mom about this, About how, you know, like, I think one of the impacts of being, I'm 27, I had Twitter in high school, you know, like I had, I was tweeting dumb stuff about politics and soccer throughout my entire life. And I think that one of the things has actually been in transition in the last three years is like recognizing that, you know, maybe some things I would have joked about before. I got to sit out now. And I think that like, you know, I tell people about, especially when I talk to like younger journalists, like my kind of, like be yourself and be yourself within the journalistic

boundaries. And I think it's a place where you can, you know, say your own analysis and highlight different points that maybe stories can't do. And I think it's also a place of representation where you can show people. that you can be your full self as a young black person and still care about politics and still be a good reporter and all of that stuff. But you don't want to tweet yourself out of jobs, you know?

You don't want to tweet yourself out of employment. And so I think a lot of that is meaning is there is no, the formal answer is there is no editorial process. And it basically is like, oh, you know, if I think this is risky, I probably shouldn't do it. in a way that I probably did a couple years ago, but at this point is not something I should play with. But I would say one thing is that my biggest, my boss told me this one,

that stopped tweeting away story ideas. And that's been something that I've been really trying to do over the last, that's been something I actually had to get better at. I mean, I think when I arrived at the times, It's such a place where you can make things happen that I wasn't used to that. So when I was in other places, I would be like, oh, why wouldn't someone write about this? I think that this is actually the more interesting thing. And the thing that my editor told me was, go do it, you know?

And so I think that that has been actually the thing about Twitter I think about the most is for as much analysis or politics discussion as there is, making sure that you hold your best fire for the paper because that's going to matter more and that's going to be longer less. I'm going to frame that for our staff to make sure that they follow those rules. That's a very good suggestion. And just for listeners,

I highly, highly recommend that you follow him on Twitter. It's Stedman. It's easy. It's so much fun. And by the way, you were a requested guest today. We got an email from someone who said that we went to college together. He's an incredibly nice and funny guy, which made me think, like, oh, he actually exists outside of Twitter as well.

That's lovely. I don't know who that is. I went to college, but I'm glad I was nice and I'm glad I'm funny. Okay. So aside from you, what reporters do you most look forward to their stories coming out? Ooh, that's a good question. You know, are we talking just politics or just generally? Anything.

Yeah, anything. You know, I think there's people who's reporting I learn a lot from. Let me start with some Times people so I can keep my job. I think about Caitlin Dickerson on the immigration beat, who just was in Minnesota writing about a town that has, has, refuse to call the police and them wrestling with it. And that's like, I love that kind of like community-based stuff where I think highlights a real thread.

And so someone like Erica Green on education, and even on our political team, I think there are the folks I learn politics from, right? So the classic like Jay Martin Alex, who I think just know more and talk to more people about the election and have learned a lot from. And then there's people in our team who do, like, political enterprise that is very much outside of kind of Washington fighting. So I think about Nick Casey on our team just did a story about a church in Georgia that's been upended by the virus and torn apart by Trump. Dionne Circe runs around the country like I do and do and does stuff around that. And then other places.

Yeah, you got to pick non-New York Times places. Okay, yeah, yeah. Adam Harris at the Atlantic writes about black folks in a way that I think is really nuanced. Robert Samuels at the Washington Post. Dave Weigel's newsletter is really informative. Tracy Jan at the Washington Post also writes about regular people in politics. I feel like I forced you to give like an impromptu Oscar acceptance speech where you're going to forget people and have to apologize. to them later. Yeah, yeah. Honestly, let me think of Adam Wren, who was following Indianapolis

like kind of freelancer, who was following Buttigieg. I feel like I learned a lot from that. Okay, no, I'm cutting you off. That's it. You're done. Great, great. Great. Okay. Last question. As someone who's been on the campaign trail a lot, myself, there's something that we all know, which is you've got to carry your own snacks because You never know where your next meal is coming from. So what is your go-to bag snack that you carry with you on the trail? I like the little grapefruit, things you can get at Walgreens, which is like little cut-up grapefruits.

And I always drink, like, iced tea. So some days it's like the sweet tea, and some days it's a snapple, but I usually have grapefruit and some form of iced tea with me. Man, that is some healthy campaign snacks. Which is actually really not how I am because I eat like trash all the time. But for some reason, those are the things I first thought about. Well, thank you so much for joining us. This has been Asted Herndon from the New York Times.

And listeners, please leave us reviews, subscribe to the podcast, and become a member of The Dispatch.com. How many time? We love to hear your feedback. Thanks so much. We'll see you again next week. I'm going to be able to be.