The Dispatch Podcast - The Christie Doctrine | Interview: Chris Christie

Episode Date: November 30, 2023

What would be the foreign policy of a Chris Christie administration? The GOP candidate and former governor joins Jamie to discuss Israel's war with Hamas, Henry Kissinger's influence, the threat of China invading Taiwan, and whether Donald Trump is going to prison. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Save when you fuel up for your next road trip. Get up to 7 cents per liter in value every time you fill up at Petro Canada. That's 3 cents per liter in instant savings plus 20% more points when you link an eligible RBC card to your Petro points. Find out more at RBC.com slash Petro-dash Canada. Conditions apply. Welcome to the Dispatch podcast. I'm Jamie Weinstein.

My guest today is 2024 Republican presidential candidate and former governor of New Jersey, Chris Christie. We talk about a lot of different topics. but mainly foreign policy, as well as Donald Trump's legal troubles and a bunch of other miscellaneous topics I bring up at the end. I think it's a really interesting conversation. I think we get some answers on questions that I don't believe he's been asked before. So I hope you enjoy it. Without further ado, here is Governor Chris Christie. Governor Chris Christie, welcome to the Dispatch podcast.

Happy to be here, Jamie. Thanks for having me. We were speaking the morning after the loss of Henry Kissinger, who I know was a mentor of yours you posted on Twitter or remembrance. Let me just start by asking. Was there any piece of advice that's the most memorable that he gave you about life or about foreign policy? You know, all of his advice was so extraordinary. that it's hard to pick out one, Jamie. I would just say to you that, you know, we met at opening day 2009 at Yankee Stadium

when I was just starting to run for governor of New Jersey. And he had heard a couple of my early speeches, apparently, and he came up to me. And the first thing that struck me was he had on a black, satin Yankees bullpen jacket not exactly what I thought I would see Henry Kissinger in

but he's a huge Yankees fan and he said to me I like the way you say things why don't you come by and visit me and he turned to his aide who was there and said give him the number

and from that moment on going all the way through to our last meeting with each other which was about two months ago. Every time I met with him, it was a tour around the world by someone who knew the world, as far as I'm concerned,

better than anybody had ever met. And so I learned something every time. And he was not the kind of guy who gave you like little bits of wisdom. He was the kind of guy who just inundated you with lessons. And, you know, when I was running for president in 2016, he said, come by and I will teach you about foreign policy. And we had monthly meetings for eight months straight where he would send me written

materials before the meeting. I'd read them and then we would spend. And his rule was we would have two hours together. The first hour at 45 minutes was him asking me questions about the written materials and us discussing them. And then he said the last 15 minutes, I could ask him anything he wanted. And that's when the really good Nixon story. would come out. So, you know, he was an amazing guy. And, you know, Mary Pat and I are both really sad

today. We got to know him not only professionally, but he and Nancy socially. And they're a special couple. And he's someone who's going to be missed by anybody who serves in the Oval Office without his wise counsel available to them. Well, in the spirit of Henry Kissinger, let's start with foreign policy governor, Israel, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has vowed to eliminate Hamas leaders wherever they are. Would a President Chris Christie administration support Israel striking Hamas leaders in Qatar and Turkey where some of them live? Look, Hamas leadership has to be taken out. And the simple fact is that what they did on October 7th was inhumanity like we've rarely seen.

And I went to Israel, as you know, a few weeks ago and saw it in person. And I can just tell you that if you're a family who lived in the kibbutz I went to, which is about 600 yards from the Gaza border and saw the destruction there, that family could never move back to its home unless they knew that Hamas's military capability was taken out. And so I don't think the prime minister has any. choice, but to do what he needs to do to be able to take out Hamas leadership and then deal with new Palestinian leadership thereafter. But I think Hamas has shown exactly who they are.

And by the way, since October 7th, Jamie has said they would like to have October 7th again and again and again. So they're not trying to say, oh, this is a one-off. They want this to be the normal course of play. And if that's the case, I don't think that any Israeli prime minister, whether it's Benjamin Nottnjahou or whoever comes after him would have any choice. And just to be clear, Governor, you would not oppose them striking, the Mossad striking their leadership abroad in places like Qatar and Turkey. I think they need to do whatever they need to do to assure the Israeli people of their safety and security.

The first job of a government is to protect their territorial integrity and the safety and security of their people. And Israel needs to do that, and Hamas threatens that. and I would support Israel doing what they need to do to get that done. On CNN's Dana Bash's show, Dan Abash's show the other day, you mentioned, as a lot of people mentioned, that Hamas did this with the support of Iran. With Governor Chris, sorry, President Chris Christie,

support Israel after it finishes its job with Hamas, turning to Iran and Iran's nuclear facilities to strike if they felt that necessary. Well, that would be a much longer conversation a much longer strategic conversation depending upon what else was going on around the world, how we assessed Israel's security and the threat that Iran was posing at that time.

And so that would be something that would be, I suspect, long conversations between two friends about what the best way it is to deal with Iran. I think the best way to deal with Iran in the near term is for when Israel completes the job against Tamas is to continue the work of isolating Iran in the rest of the Middle East by trying to execute more agreements with more of their Arab neighbors

and try to continue to isolate Iran. I think doing that is the next step in this process. But, you know, all that would depend, Jamie, on what the nature of the threat was as Israel laid it out to us and what our view of that threat was. And collectively, what we thought was the best way to deal with it. But it's certainly not something I would commit to today, sight unseen. You mentioned that you were in Israel

and the Arab Abraham Accords that you would hope to continue. I know that you know King Abdullah of Jordan, who's had a peace deal with Israel since 1994. Have you talked to any Arab leaders in the wake of October 7th, and do you have any knowledge or understanding whether leadership in places like Saudi Arabia want to continue forward with these peace deals after October 7th, or is that on pause?

I have spoken with members of the Arab leadership since October 7th and specifically before my visit to Israel because I wanted their perspective on things before I went over to meet with the President of Israel. I met with the Speaker of the Knesset and spent hours with him. So I wanted to know what their point of view was. Look, they're very concerned, obviously, about the situation that's going on now in Gaza.

They want Israel and the Palestinians to come to a two-state solution. and I think part of what was going on with the Abraham Accords was trying to build towards that type of momentum. Do I think that's possible in the next six months for these things to get back on track? Probably not. But I also believe that if Israel conducts itself in the way they have discussed,

which is to be very surgical, very precise about what they're trying to do here, which is not to kill innocent Palestinian civilians, but to kill the leadership of Hamas and makes the world understand how Hamas is making that very difficult to do. I think there's still be a way to bring this back together, but not without American leadership, Jamie. If America follows the foreign policy of isolationism that some of the people in my party

are advocating this America alone policy, as I call it, then that will be impossible. You mentioned also on that CNN interview with Dana Bash that one of the jobs of the American president is while supporting an ally in public privately telling them when enough is enough. Were you suggesting in any way that you think you would be close to having that conversation with Israel

at this point if you were president? Or do you still think there's a long way to go until enough is enough? No, I think there's a ways to go yet. I don't know if I'd say a long way to go. But I think there's a ways to go yet. And I certainly would not be in favor of a ceasefire right now. I don't think that Israel has finished the job that they need to finish.

I am fine with the pause that Israel has had with Hamas for the return of hostages. I met with a number of the hostage families when I was in Israel, and I know how heartbreaking this is for them and how every night they go to sleep wondering about the safety, security, and the life of their loved one. So I think this is a very difficult job for the Israeli government. They have to try to do two things at once, get these hostages returned, and continue to degrade Hamas's military capability. And that's why I think we have to be extremely supportive of their efforts in public. And in private, we need to continue to do what friends do, which is to talk about the difficult issues and give candid advice and counsel. But that candid advice and counsel should be done in private, not in public.

Well, here's a question for you, Governor. Hamas hostages included Americans. I'm not sure if I think there still are some Americans being held hostage by Hamas. Would a President Chris Christie, given the fact that American hostages are, there are American hostages, authorize American special forces to go in and try to extract them, not just have Israel use their military to do so? Well, you know, first, what I would do as president is, go to the Joint Chiefs and our intelligence chiefs and say, is there a plan given what we know from an intelligence perspective and what our capabilities are militarily

that could successfully try to extract these hostages? If there is, come and bring the plan to me and present it to me. And if I thought there was a way for us to safely get the hostages out with the use of American intelligence and American military, it's absolutely something I would consider to try to save American lives. But sitting here now, Jamie, I'm not briefed on such matters. And so it's difficult for me to say, yes, I absolutely would.

What I would say yes to is, as president, I would want to know from the military, is there a plan to do this or not. If there is, then let's consider it and let's consider the possibility of success. And that's what you have to consider as president. But you can't consider anything if there's not a plan that's presented to you. And that's what I would ask the military to do. broader question we discussed earlier how hamas leadership resides in both cutter and turkey do you consider cutter an ally do you consider turkey an american ally well look um turkey is a nato member um and and

as such um we they are part of our bigger and broader alliance doesn't mean we always agree that's pretty obvious um that i wouldn't always agree with uh mr erdogan um but um you know i think that they're part of the NATO alliance, and as such, we need to deal with them as allies in that respect and should continue to be talking with them about ways that they can play productive roles in trying to lower the violence in the world. And look, I think Qatar has played a significant role in the negotiation of the release of these hostages. I think that's a very positive step forward for them in their relationship with us. and with the rest of the world.

And so, you know, look, my attitude as president would be that on issues like this, you have to consider the totality of both words and actions in terms of how you deal with those folks. But I certainly would have no problem in dealing with the leadership of Qatar and as we're doing now in the hostage negotiations. And so there are a lot of complicated issues in the world, Jamie. And my view is talking about them are better than not in most instances. And certainly, Cudder would fall into that.

Let me ask you one question on Ukraine. And going back to the enough is enough comment that you might counsel allies in confidence. Do you still believe Ukraine can win on the battlefield? And is there a point where a president, Chris Christie, might counsel Vladimir Zelensky in private, that enough is enough and it's time to try to resolve this in some type of settlement, even how unsavory it might be with Vladimir Putin if he doesn't believe Ukraine can win on the battlefield. I can't reach that conclusion when we haven't given Ukraine all the military aid that they need

to be able to fight on a level playing field with Russia. I think they've done an extraordinary job. I think most people thought when this war started that it might be over in a week or two and that Russia would just overtake Ukraine and take Kiev, and this would be over. I think what's happened over the last 18 months, given what the Ukrainians have been given from a military perspective is extraordinary. We waited much too long on F-16s. We waited much too long on other sophisticated weaponry.

And quite frankly, they still don't have everything they need to be able to fight this war the way it needs to be fought. And I think that's part of the reason why the counteroffensive wasn't as successful as it could have been this summer. And so no, I'm not to the point where I would say that yet. I think we have to support Ukraine. I think we need to give them more military aid, not less. And I think that we need to see how this will play out over the course of the next number of months. So I'm not ready to get on the phone with Vladimir Zelensky. You know, I went to Ukraine. I visited with the president, spoke with him about this issue, visited with his defense ministry, visited areas of

of the country where I saw the Russian atrocities that were committed. And the fact is that if I were Ukrainians right now, I wouldn't trust any agreement I made with the Russians. Remember, the Russians have said over the course of time that they weren't going to, you know, invade the territorial integrity of Ukraine yet. We've seen what's gone on in Crimea and now what's going on in the Donbos. And I think it's very hard at the moment to trust anything that Vladimir Putin would say. Can you imagine in your eight years as president sitting down with Vladimir Putin at a summit,

or do you believe that he will be forever person non grotto with Western leaders? I don't think you ever say never, Jamie. Don't think you ever say never. But what you say is that you judge people based upon their actions. Deeds are important. And certainly right now, Vladimir Putin is not somebody who, through the conduct he's engaged in. over the course of the last 18 months or so is somebody who I think we have much to discuss with but the fact of the matter is I would never say never to any of that because things

circumstances do change and you have to be smart about taking advantage of those circumstances there may come a set of circumstances where it makes strategic sense for the United States to have conversations with Vladimir Putin but at this moment I think what we should the message we should be sending is by sending sophisticated weaponry to Vladimir Zelensky and the Ukrainian army to send that message to both Vladimir Putin and a President Xi in China who is financially supporting this effort by Russia and Ukraine. Well, that's my next question, China. I think the number one flashpoint in the world that probably keeps most presidents up at night,

or at least this president and the next one, would be China deciding to invest. invade Taiwan. How would Chris Christie, a president Chris Christie, react if he got the call at 3 a.m. from the National Security Council to say that China has initiated an invasion of Taiwan. Well, first off, President Christie would be working on this from the moment he took his hand off the Bible on the front of the Capitol. And that is to say, we need to send a very clear and strong message to China that that type of aggression would be made. met with U.S. force. And it's not just about talking about it, Jamie, but it's also doing what I said in the last

debate, which was to begin immediately to increase our nuclear submarine capability and to show the Chinese that that's what we're going to be doing, to add to what we have already, that is the single biggest deterrent that we can put into the South China Sea to make the Chinese believe that the juice would not be worth the squeeze if they went after Taiwan. So we would start with that. But look, I don't think there's any question, given the strategic importance of Taiwan, that this would be a place where, unfortunately, if China decided to, you know, become aggressive, that the U.S. would have to meet them. Can you actually expand on that point? What would you say to people in the Republican Party

who are not as hawkish, maybe more isolation? This is clearly a wing within the Republican Party today or even on the left that would say why is Taiwan important, even defending, even at the risk of potentially starting World War III? Well, the reason that Taiwan is important, let's start off with practical reasons. Two-thirds of the world semiconductors are manufactured in Taiwan. What we're doing today here on Zoom could not be done without semiconductors. What we do every day on these devices, couldn't be done. Turning on our lights and our home practically at this point can't be done without semiconductors. Starting our cars can't be done without semiconductors. So the fact is that when two-thirds of the semiconductors in the world are made in Taiwan, Taiwan has enormous

national security and strategic importance, not to mention what the role of semiconductors plays in our military. So that's the practical reason. And quite frankly, we cannot live in a world where China believes they are the dominant world power and they can do whatever they wish. It's not true. And how would you react if you were Japan? How would you react if you were Vietnam? How would you react if you were India?

If you were Australia or New Zealand, that entire area of the world would be now come to think that China can act with aggression and impunity whenever they want. And that's not in America's long-term interest here at home or around the world. So that's why. Not long ago, I saw someone go through a sudden loss and it was a stark reminder of how quickly life can change and why protecting the people you love is so important.

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What was that conversation like? Did you talk about potentially running for president? Oh, gosh, no. He was still president at that time. Oh, you're right. And he had called me because he had seen me on ABC on a Sunday say that his legal team was a national embarrassment. And he was not happy with, you know, my comments and called me in the car on the way back from ABC's studios in New York to complain to me about it.

And we had a, you know, pretty extensive conversation about the state of play at that time. I suggested to him that the only thing he could do that would be in accord with the responsibilities and the honor he was given as president would be to concede the election to Joe Biden to attend his inauguration. and then to go back to Mara Lago, and if he felt, as I did, that Joe Biden was not going to be a success as president, then that would help to preserve some political future for him. But if he were to continue to do what he was doing, I thought that he was putting himself and putting the country in a horrible place. He told me that he would never, ever, ever do that. And he said, what else you got? And I said, I don't have anything else, Mr. President, because there is nothing else. And he said, well, then we have nothing left to talk about.

We hung up. In that conversation, did he give you any belief that he knew that he lost the election? In that conversation, no. But in previous conversations, yes. He was afraid he was losing the election while I was preparing him for the debates with Joe Biden and expressed that very clearly. So this idea that somehow he thinks he really didn't lose the election is ridiculous. He knows.

You said earlier this week that you think he will actually be convicted in the Jacksmith case in D.C. in April of May of next year. For those not legally minded like you are or have any experience in prosecutions like you do, explain the logistics of that. So if he's convicted, when do you think he would be sentenced? Could he actually be sent to jail? Is it possible he could be in jail on Election Day? unlikely. I think what would happen would be we see a conviction the end of April, beginning of May, and the reason why I say he'll be convicted is the immunity agreement that Mark Meadows has signed. Understand when a prosecutor, and I did this for seven years in the fifth largest office in the country, when a prosecutor gives an immunity agreement to someone, it's very rare. And when they give it to them, it's because they have evidence that the prosecutor could not get any place else, and that they probably more likely than not have corroboration of that evidence,

not just their word. So Mark Meadows, not some left-winger, not some product of the two-tiered system of justice he talks about. Mark Meadows, a founder of the Freedom Caucus, and his chief of staff, who he called James Baker, when he appointed him the chief of staff, will sit on a witness stand, Jamie, put his hand up and swear that he committed crimes himself

and that Donald Trump committed crimes in his presence. I don't know after that testimony how you're not convicted. And so let's start there. I think once there was a conviction, usually there are post-trial motions and then probably about a two-month period, maybe three before sentencing. So let's take it out to three.

He would be sentenced if he was convicted in early May. by early August, would he be sent to jail? Unlikely. I think what would happen is they would ask for bail pending appeal. It would more likely than not get it. I would put that at about 85, 90%, that he would be likely to get bail pending appeal. And then he would be out during the pendency of his appeal,

which would probably be about a year before that appeal was decided in the D.C. Circuit if it didn't end favorably to the former. president then. My guess is he would take it to the United States Supreme Court. So I don't think you'd really see Donald Trump susceptible to being jailed until sometime in 2026. But the interesting thing would be once he was convicted, he wouldn't be able to vote. We could have a situation where the guy running for president, you wouldn't see that normal election day be roll that you see of the president and his spouse walking into the voting area

to go and vote because only Melania would be able to vote, not Donald Trump. Governor, you use this as an example of why he can't win the presidency. But at this moment, he's probably at worst, the second most likely person to be president

on January 2025. We had Maggie Haberman on this show a couple weeks ago. There's been extensive reporting on how Donald Trump has talked about using the IRS and the DOJ to go after his enemies. Are you concerned at all that if he is president again, you would be on that list for him to use the IRS or the DOJ to go after you? No, I'm not concerned.

I've always complied with the law, never worked outside of the law. In fact, the part of my life has been dedicated to enforcing the law and law and order. So no, I'm not concerned about that. That's what bullies do, Jamie. They try to threaten you to keep you quiet. He's not going to keep me quiet. Last question on the former president. Is there any circumstance governor where, you know, five months, six months a year from now,

we're going to see you on a stage behind Donald Trump endorsing him for president again? If you've listened to me during this campaign, I think you know the answer to that question, Jamie. I'm saying, I assume that's a no. As I said, Jamie, if you've listened to me in this campaign, you know, people ask me this question literally in every interview. And given that I've answered it, you know, at this point probably a hundred times or more, I'm not going to answer it. I now have a policy I'm not answering it in every interview. Let's just say this. In the first debate, I was the only person along with Asa Hutchinson who didn't raise their hand when asked if they would support a Republican nominee who was a convicted felon.

governor let's go just some random questions as we end since october 7th there's been some talk from the former president trump but also others of either canceling visas of those in the united states who signed what are effectively pro homas petitions or participated in pro homas rallies or having ideological tests for immigrants coming to the united states where do you stand on on like that? Look, I think for people who involve themselves in anti-Semitic activity in this country who are here on student visas or things like that, that's a privilege to be here. If you're going to engage in anti-Semitic activity which induces violence, you have no right to be here. And I would send those people home. In terms of ideological tests for people to come into this country,

the fact is people should comply with the immigration laws to come into this country. And if there are people who presented danger to our country, they shouldn't be permitted in. I don't if that's an ideological test. I think that's a practical test based upon people's conduct. You said earlier this week, you would not support a six-week federal abortion ban. If there was a referendum in New Jersey, I know that's unlikely for a six-week federal abortion, or a state-abortion ban. Would you vote for it? Would I vote? Well, yes, in New Jersey, look, the fact of the matter is, we would not never ever have one in New Jersey because we're a state that allows abortion up to the ninth

month. So the idea that the Democratic legislature would pass that is just not feasible. But what I've said very clearly is there is no national consensus. I want the states to all make their own decisions, Jamie. We fought for 50 years as Republicans saying that the Supreme Court took out of the hands of the people the right to make this decision. I think the people should make that decision. And so the fact is that, you know, we should let those states make those decisions. And that's why I'm against the federal ban at six weeks. I think that's taking it out of the hands of the people, putting in the hands of the politicians. And I'll tell you this, if you and I, as we have watched the House of Representatives spend three weeks trying to pick

a speaker and the United States Senate still not being able to approve military promotions, I don't want to put the question of life in the hands of those people, but apparently Governor Haley and Governor DeSantis both feel that they would. I don't. Another candidate for president, no longer in the Democratic primary, but as an independent, is RFK Jr. He has complained that President Biden did not give him Secret Service Protection. Have you requested Secret Service Protection? And what do you make of the complaints of RFK Jr. That he does not have Secret Service protection? I have not asked for Secret Service protection.

and frankly, as for RFK Jr., I think we should permit the Secret Service to assess whatever threats, if any, against RFK Jr. exists. And I think the Secret Service would be responsible about that. If they felt that there was a threat against any of us that was serious enough and substantial enough, I think they would extend us that protection. I have not received such a threat, and so I have not brought anything to the attention to the Secret Service. that would necessitate me having protection. And I assume I haven't heard RFK Jr. say he has been the subject of threats. I think he's talking about it from a family historical perspective. And I don't think that's probably enough to be able to merit secret service protection.

And finally, what would a president's Chris Christie cabinet look like? For those who are trying to glean insight in and what a president Chris Christie administration would look like, are there names that you can pull out? that you would like to see in your cabinet? I think it's probably a little bit early, Jamie, to be throwing names out there, especially since I haven't spoken to the people whose names would be inside my head. So I don't want to put them in that position either.

But what I would see is I'm sure you'd see a number of governors or former governors because I think they know how to run things and they would know how to run cabinet departments in a way that was really effective and efficient and gets things done. And I think what you'd also see, are people who believe that America is the indispensable nation around the world.

So in our foreign policy, I think you'd see people who want to see America be involved with our allies around the world, be involved in setting a tone around the world that supports freedom and liberty and capitalism. And we would want that in our economic appointees as well, someone who wants to engage with the world and make sure that America keeps its preeminent role as the strongest economy in the world and the strongest economy in the world and the strongest military in the world, but most importantly, that's the strongest force for good in the world. And I think those are the kind of people you can see in a Christie cabinet.

Governor Chris Christie, thank you for joining the dispatch podcast. Jamie, thanks for having it. You know,