The Dispatch Podcast - Untold No More

Episode Date: July 10, 2020

The day after his son was born on October 2, 2009, Jake Tapper watched a news report about a team of 53 American troops who were relentlessly attacked by 400 Taliban insurgents at the Combat Outpost Keating in Afghanistan. “In the haze of it all, there was a moment where I was sitting there holding my son and watching this news report about eight other sons, taken from this earth,” he said. Inspired by this story of American valor, Tapper began researching the story and eventually published a book chronicling the events in 2012. Fast forward eight years and his book, The Outpost, is now a movie. On today’s episode, Jake Tapper discusses the new blockbuster film with Sarah and Steve, and spends some time discussing the Taliban exit deal, the effectiveness of counterinsurgency abroad, and a sneak peek into the novel he’s working on. Show Notes: -The Outpost: An Untold Story of American Valor book, “The Outpost” movie, and Tapper's political thriller The Hellfire Club. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Welcome to our special Friday Dispatch podcast. I'm your host, Sarah Isger, joined by Steve Hayes. This podcast is brought to you by The Dispatch. Visit the dispatch.com to see our full slate of newsletters and podcasts and subscribe to this podcast so you never miss an episode. And we'll hear a little later from our sponsor today, CarShield. But first, we're joined today by Jake Tapper, chief Washington correspondent for CNN and host of the television show The Lead with Jake Tapper and the Sunday show, State of the Union on CNN. But we aren't talking. campaigns or Washington politics. We're talking about why those decisions matter. Jake's 2012 book, The Outpost, tells the story of the Battle of Cop Keating and America's War in the Nuristan

province of Afghanistan. That book has now been made into a movie, also called The Outpost. We want to talk to Jake about everything that went into writing that book and what it has meant. Let's dive right in. We are here with Jake Tapper, whose new movie has come out based on his book, The Outpost. So excited to talk about this, watch the movie. But I want to read a section from the forward of the new book. Sergeant Dan Rodriguez wrote this forward.

He is in the movie, and he was also at that outpost. at Cop Keating that day. Here's what he ended his forward with. As with the book you now hold in your hands, I hope the film celebrates selfless acts of camaraderie and unprecedented circumstances. I hope it emphasizes the tragedies unforgettable so the remembrance of good men is permanent. I hope it will open our eyes and help us better understand the sacrifices made by service members. Lastly, I hope it's a lesson to military leaders that war has consequences and that leaving your troops in an indefensible location in the middle of hell is a pretty shitty idea. Both pointed, yeah, true, and a little bit of humor.

But I want to back up. He wrote that in April 2019. The movie is out right now. But this all starts as you're sitting in the maternity ward in 2009. Tell us how this project began for you. So I, my wife and I were sitting in the recovery area of Sibley Hospital in northwest D.C. and my son Jack had just been born October 2nd, 2009, and the outpost, this American outpost, only 53 U.S. troops, was overrun by up to 400 insurgents, Taliban, the next day, the very next day, October 3rd. So I don't know if it was that day or some time that week, in the haze of it all, there was a moment that I was sitting there holding my son and watching this news report.

about eight other sons taken from this earth. And it was just a poignant moment. And I had heard about other battles, but there was just something about this one, maybe because of the moment with my son, or I don't know, just the focus, but for whatever reason, I wanted to know more about the men who served,

the eight men who were gone. It was the deadliest day for the U.S. that year in Afghanistan. And I wanted to know, everybody kept covering the story, the way that Rodriguez just described it, like it was, you know, this base was at the bottom of three steep mountains, 14 miles from the Pakistan border. It was indefensible. Why were the U.S. troops put there? And I waited for the answer and no one ever gave me the answer. And, you know, like a lot of people in journalism,

I started doing, you know, researching and investigating myself because nobody else was doing it. And the movie doesn't really go into that. The movie is more about the fact of the battle and the fact of why it was of the events that day, of that big day. But the book is the whole history of the outpost, the push into that part of Afghanistan in 2006 to the end of it all in 2009. And I read this wonderful review. I don't know if you've read it by Martin Coos of the book.

This is a 688-page book. You don't spare a lot of details. And one of the things that Martin Coos wrote about it that I thought was perfect was that you, you captured, quote, the sense of futility is both intimate and writ large. And is, that's something that I thought the movie actually did pretty well with. How do you feel that the book got translated? Obviously, from 68 pages, as you said, there's a lot you can't include in a movie.

Are there things that weren't in the movie that you, that sort of, you know, broke your heart that you just couldn't fit those in? Yeah, of course. I mean, yeah. What's your, what was your number one thing? I thought the camel spiders maybe would rain high. I mean, the thing is about the movie is that there is, like, for instance, there's a scene in the movie and in the book where Clint Romichet, one of the heroes,

who was later awarded the Medal of Honor, says, we're taking this bitch back, talking about the opos, we're taking this bitch back. And it sounds like a movie line from a Hollywood movie. But he said that. And in actuality, I think one of his, one of his best friends, Rasmussen, said, I'd follow you into hell or something like that. And that's not in the movie. There's so much more that could have been in the movie,

but to include it would have made it seem too much like the camel spiders. Like the camel spiders are these giant, they're not actually technically spiders, these giant, freaky-looking things. I actually, there's a horror movie made about camel spiders that I stumbled on years later, and I sent pictures of it to a bunch of the guys who served at Cop Keating just because they, I mean,

it makes sense they're freaky um the heart there are so many heartbreaking things that that stuff is fun but you know just just guys who serve there whose stories were not told um because you know it's a two hour movie and that's pretty much um i i think you know i'm not a big fan of movies longer than two hours generally speaking and and um you know you want people to watch it it in in my dream world it would have been a you know a 10 part 20 part HBO miniseries like Band of Brothers or something like that, but we just couldn't tell everybody's stories. So there's so many guys. I mean, there's this whole mission before they set up the outpost that resulted in the

Medal of Honor posthumously for a guy named Jared Monti. There's a big helicopter crash with a guy named Colonel Fenty, a bunch of other Tom Bostic and Chris Pfeiffer and Ryan Fritchie, just a number of heroes whose stories we couldn't fit in. And so that's a heartbreak. You know, it's a heartbreak to tell the parents who's, you know, I love these people and I told their stories in the book. And then just to say, not everybody's story can be in the book. Obviously, we're telling the story of the big battle in 2009, but we can't, we can't tell every story. And that's, that's sad.

But it's, you know, it's just a fact of life. You have to, you have to make decisions. And Steve, you're with us today. Yeah. Let me ask the question sort of going in the other direction. Were there things that were included in the movie? This is a fictionalized version of, obviously, your book and a true life story. Were the things that were included in the movie where the director took,

where the filmmakers took particular liberties that weren't in the book? It's a great question. There were some liberty. I don't really have any issue with the liberties that were taken. um but but just to give you a couple of examples um ben keating uh served at at the outpost but he served in 2006 when you see the movie it's as if he served there in 2009 same thing with a guy named rob yaskas he served in 2008 but it's as they served in 2009 this is the flip side of the we can't tell every story in order to tell those two stories we um we conflated

We put people who served with 371 cav and with 6-4 cav in with 361 cav. And that, you know, that ruffled some feathers when I told, you know, I'm friends with a lot of these people on this specific Facebook group for people in the Outpost family for the book. And, you know, I kept them, I was a producer of the movie, so I kept them abreast. And that was, you know, somewhat controversial. I think ultimately people came to understand and appreciate, oh, he's doing that so, you know, they're doing that so they can tell the story of Ben Keating, so they can tell the story of Rob Yeskis. And it's not as if there are like fake relationships in the movie that didn't exist.

It's kind of just like the idea of Keating there. But, you know, that's something that those are decisions you make when you make a movie. and you know you take some liberties another one is there's a scene where they have dogs on the outpost and actually in the book this is kind of like a subtext the dogs that they adopt in 2006 and their offspring and then an incident that happens in 2008 that's in the book in the movie where one of the dogs bites the hand of an afghan now that all happened but it didn't have It happened in 2009. It happened in 2008. So I guess, you know, in the spirit of telling larger truths about the outpost, some liberties were taken.

But to a, in a way, I was not uncomfortable with it. I understood the decision. And I thought, you know, when you're making a movie that is based on a true story, not a documentary, sometimes you do things like that. And I get it. And it's been done in any, any movie or TV show based on a true story. There are liberties taken like that. And it's just a question of whether or not they're ones you can live with.

I was comfortable with these, though. You are not a war correspondent. No. You weren't at the time. You were a White House correspondent for ABC News. You cover politics, polling primaries and the podium. That was not meant to be alliterative, but it sort of was. Nice.

And you're attracted to this story. So how did what were the upsides and downsides of that? Like you were coming into it sort of with fresh eyes, I would assume, to some extent, but also without that background of having lived in Afghanistan or embedded for years like some other reporters. And then looking forward, how has that affected your reporting now as you continue to cover the White House and foreign policy, but through this political lens for the most part on your show? It's a great question. Yeah, I was not a war correspondent.

I had done one tour in the ABC News Baghdad Bureau right after Bob Woodruff was grievously wounded. So I forget when that was, 05, 06, somewhere in there. I had done that. But that's it. And, you know, ABC News has a whole bunch of really, really brave correspondents who are war correspondents. most famously, perhaps, Martha Raditz, who's just, you know, one of the toughest and best war reporters that there is. But I was not, I did not have that background. So for me, it was new, and the nice way to put it is that, you know, I bring a set of fresh eyes. The other way to put

it is that I didn't know anything at all. And, you know, I didn't know the difference between an infantry unit and a cavalry unit and, you know, all this stuff. And so that was, there was a real learning curve. I mean, I do think that one of the great things that people can do in their careers is to step outside their comfort zone and learn something new. Both of you do that and have done that in your careers in the last five years. I've seen both of you do that. But it is a little bit nerve wracking. And yeah, becoming a reporter about the Afghan war. There was also, you know, a moment where I had to have a conversation. with my wife, you know, I'm going to have to go to Afghanistan at some point. I can't write this

book entirely from the security of Washington, D.C. Or, I mean, I did fly around to interview people in Colorado and Georgia and everything, but I'm going to, I'm going to have to go. I'm going to have to go there. And I went there once with Obama on Air Force One when he was president, and I was a pool reporter. And that was not enough. It was very clear to me. It was not enough. just touch down in Bogrom and do an event and then fly back. They didn't even get to Kabul because there was a dust storm that day, so they couldn't even get there. So I had to get embedded and do all that.

And it's just eye-opening. I mean, you see what these men and women who serve and sacrifice. And yes, by the way, there are a ton of women. There are a ton of women. All this stuff about whether women should serve. You know, who's not debating it? Women on the front lines, they're there. Whether they're MPs or medics or, you know, with upper echelons of the officer corps, whatever, they're there.

And in fact, when at the early days of Combat Appos Keating, back when it was just a PRT camdash, there was a whole unit of women MPs that some days I think about like what would it be like to go back and write their story because that must have been something. but they got involved in firefights and all the rest. So in any case, so really just... My best friend from college is she just got promoted to Lieutenant Colonel in the Marine Corps, and I'm so proud of her. Oh, that's great. And I promised I would not sit and brag about her a ton. We talked about this, but I just have to say, like, it has always influenced me greatly

what she has done and where she's been. And her stories of what it's like to be a woman in the Marine Corps are certainly, you know, she's very proud to be a Marine, but it's tough. It's tough. Yeah. Yeah, that's tough. I mean, what's the old line about Ginger Rogers, did everything Fred Astaire did, except backwards and on high heels?

Yeah, it's backwards and in high heels with a hundred pound rucksack. I mean, like, it's, it's super hard. I mean, these women who rise the ranks are, are superheroes. Anyway, how did it influence me since I finished it is I think it just, like, gave me a greater appreciation for veterans, for veterans issues, for how much we, as a society, both just the public and the media and our politicians just kind of like

take these people for granted. And so anytime I can do anything I try to get involved, even in a private way quietly or in a public way advocating, it bothers me so much, so much when veterans are attacked for their service.

I remember getting into a Twitter fight with a progressive on Twitter who was attacking Tom Cotton for his service. And, you know, like, I don't care if you attack his politics. Just don't attack his service. Like, he served. And, you know, what's going on this week with Lieutenant Colonel Vindman and Senator Tammy Duckworth?

I just do not understand it. I do not understand it. It is heart-wrenching to me because I know what these people go through. And, you know, what Tammy Duckworth had to go through, just to pick somebody today, I mean, although Vindman has a purple heart, he still got strapped on his body, what these people go through to get out of Walter Reed. You know, she spent 13 months of Walter Reed. So people who served at the outpost who lost limbs or lost eyes, like,

I followed their progress. It takes years, and it is so hard, and it is so difficult to, like, get your body up and running again after you've lost your legs. There's a hero. Again, you talk about things that didn't make the movie. There's a hero in the book who served in 2007 named Falkenberry, and he was injured, and a different guy named Chris Pfeiffer was injured at the same time, and the wife, lives were there for each other. And it's just, there is this whole emotional narrative,

this just wrenching journey. Falkenberry made it. He's got one leg, but he's fine. Chris Fiper didn't make it. And there's just so much emotion of all these great people who just serve and sacrifice for us. I don't care if they're liberal or conservative, a right wing or left wing or libertarian or whatever. And to not honor that bothers me so much. And I don't think it would have bothered me. I think it would have bothered me, but I don't think it would have bothered me as much before this book experience. Yeah, and I think just based on my own experience, working with veterans covering the war, the other thing I think that people can't see. I mean, it's easier for us to depict, to show people, to talk to people about what the physical

recovery is like in these wounded veterans, it's not easy to convey to people just how difficult the mental recovery is. In this case, particularly because so many people who join the military, either by choice when they join or through experience and what they've done, it becomes not only a core part of their identity, but in many cases, their entire identity. And I remember having a conversation with a former Marine who was wounded, who said, you know, when he was, when he was in the Marines and he was overseas, he was fighting, he was ripped and he, you know, jacked, and he was sort of the ultimate, in his words, the ultimate man,

the ultimate tough guy. And then he got wounded. and he got chubby and he couldn't be this guy that he had been for all these years and that was the thing that was hardest for him to recover from

so it's it's a it's a digression but that's a I think it's a really hard thing to do and I think you've captured that in your reporting the um you want to talk about also something else that was left out there's a character in the movie

a real guy Faulkner, Ed Faulkner, you first see him at the beginning of the movie, he's smoking hash. And Keating is like, Faulkner's smoking hash again. And then, you know, he's a hero in the battle. He rises. He's a hero. There's this one mission where a guy named Josh Hart and a guy named Chris Griffin and Ed Faulkner all go to try to save the guys that are stuck in the Humvee. And they don't succeed.

but Hart gets killed and Griffin gets killed, but Faulkner survives. Faulkner didn't make it to the one-year anniversary of cop feeding. He overdosed at home in North Carolina on like Oxy or something like that. And the emotional wounds of these people, the divorces, the alcoholism, the self-medicating, the number of guys who, there's a guy in the movie. Jacobs who gets shot in the face at the very beginning of the movie, he later committed suicide in real life. And I mean, it's just, and the mental health care in this country is nowhere to be in the VA system. There are a lot of good men and women who do a lot of good work

in the VA system, but it's just not up to what is needed, I think. So the idea for this came in the maternity board as you're holding your infant son. Yeah. Something that I'm, you know, when I saw that part of your story struck home, obviously, because that's sort of where I am right now. But fast forward, and your son is going to be 11 years old soon. And we as a, you know, country have just signed a peace deal with the Taliban. And at the same time, you're in Bulgaria, you know, looking at this scene.

It goes back to 2009 and all with your, you know, your son serves as a timeline to some extent for how long it's been since that battle was fought. How has that colored your view of the Taliban peace deal? How did it color your view of sitting there in Bulgaria watching this movie shot 10 years later? And how do you talk to your son about that? So it's amazing. You read the introduction to the new version of the book from, Rodriguez, who was at the outpost and also plays himself in the movie, and Rodriguez, in the

propaganda filmed by the Taliban of the attack, you see Rodriguez running across the compound as the attack comes in. And there I am in 2018 with my son and my wife and daughter also, we're at the, they had, Rod Lurray, the director, has recreated the entire outpost in Bulgaria, outside Sofia, an old quarry by a mountain, and the other mountains were CGI'd in later. And there I am watching Rodriguez show my son his route as he ran that morning.

And it was just freaky, but there's my son. You know, he's got his army clothes on, and he's excited to be there. He's still young enough to not understand, you know, the tragedy of it all. He understands the heroism. But I mean, when it comes to the Taliban peace deal, I mean, you know, I don't have to have an opinion, right? I mean, I just have to ask questions about it and report it and honestly.

And, like, the truth is you make peace with your enemies. You don't make peace with your friends. That said, I think there's... But with so many other things that you report on, you have not written 688 pages about the individual stories and the families and the wives and the children and the suicides, it is different than, covering a campaign. Sure, absolutely. I mean, look, I mean, I guess I see it in two different ways. I see it from the perspective of these troops and the sacrifice, and we've been there now 19 years, and I don't know how much longer it makes sense to be there, if at all. I mean, just on a technical level, like what can be on a strategic level? What more can be achieved than has been achieved?

Is there anything more? The staying there for five years longer make sense. in terms of bringing some sort of sense and peace to a country that has never really existed as a cohesive country. So that's one. And then, you know, so I see it from the perspective of sacrifice, how much more sacrifice is necessary. And then, too, I also see it from the perspective of, you know, I don't buy that the Taliban has renounced al-Qaeda. I don't buy that the Taliban has renounced ISIS. I mean, I just don't believe it based on the evidence. Sassalon is a great source of skepticism on this on Twitter. He's somebody I follow.

And so, I mean, I see both sides on that. And I'm ready to ask questions about it. I'm ready to cover it. I thought the idea of inviting the Taliban to Camp David was insane. I mean, I thought that was insane. Not to say you shouldn't make peace with the Taliban. I get that. But, like, I mean, you don't invite.

I mean, it's really honestly no different than inviting Mullah Omar or Osama bin Laden to Camp David. I thought that was crazy. I understood why John Bolton was so mad about that. Well, and of course, at the time, the Taliban were still publishing videos about their alliance with Al-Qaeda. I mean, the people who conducted the 9-11 attacks. And they've been inextricably linked and often have their leadership councils overlapping. I mean, Mike Pompeo made news last week when he claimed that he has seen evidence that the Taliban is now working alongside the U.S. troops in country to defeat al-Qaeda. The U.S. public has not seen that evidence.

I think it's important that we do see it. Yeah, no, I agree with you 100%. Let me ask you. This is actually a sort of a similar version of a question that Sarah asked earlier, but directly related to what we're talking about here. I mean, there is this, I think one of things that comes out in the film is the sense of hopelessness and sort of futility of it all. And I wondered as I watched the film, how much you,

You think that's because of where they were physically, which plays such an important role in the way that events unfolded. I mean, physically where they were and what a poor decision that was to put an outpost there. And how much of that really was the result of all of the other things that were happening with the U.S. presence in Afghanistan? I mean, there's this sort of sense of overarching futility and hopelessness to it all that you see both in the fighting. And then even when they go and they try to talk to the tribal elders. Yeah. Well, I mean, the book can be, you know, the book is basically an exploration of counterinsurgency or coin and whether or not it works and how effective it can be and how effective it sometimes is not. Counterinsurgency, for those who don't know, is the effort by the U.S. to offer things

to locals, hydroelectric plants, schools, roads, in order to get them to not align with insurgents. That's why it's counterinsurgency. So, coin, I think coin is very difficult. And, you know, based on the book, you know, there are examples of it working. I mean, I don't think there's, I don't know that I've ever seen in a, in a movie, a depiction of coin like there is in the outpost movie where Ben Keating comes and says, he takes off his, his gear and he says, you know, we, we will give you projects, but you have to work with us. That's what it is. And I think it's very, very difficult to do. I mean, in the movie, the, you know, these locals did not, they thought that the Americans were. were the Soviets who had been there, you know, in the 80s. And that happened. I mean, that really happened.

You know, they don't, these people don't have televisions. They don't have newspapers. They don't have the internet. They don't know what's going on. And I just think the idea of it, and Steve, you and I could probably have a 10-day-long debate discussion on a cruise somewhere for two unlucky participants to discuss. when Bush changed from Afghanistan being counterterrorism and just going after al-Qaeda and when he decided to resume, to try nation-building, a very lofty goal and idealistic, but I think very difficult. Now, the book goes into detail about some of it working. In 2007, under the leadership of a guy named Colonel Colinda,

It worked. They made lots of inroads. And then they made inroads the following year, too. And the guy Rob Yaskis, who's played in the movie by Milo Gibson, Mel Gibson's son, he was really successful in doing this as well, bonding with the locals, having them trust him. And then Rob Yaskis was targeted for assassination by the insurgents, and he was killed. and everything went to hell in the valley after that. So I just think, I think it is a very tough thing to do.

I think, so I don't know that I would call it futile, but it is, I don't know that it's an exercise in futility, but it is very difficult. And then I also think that putting the cop there, putting the camp there, and it was, we should note also, this is another strategic decision, this was done by Colonel McNickleson, who went on to become a general, and then the commander in Afghanistan, there was a decision to put all these little outposts all over northeastern Afghanistan to attempt to bond with the locals and fend off the insurgents who were pouring in from Pakistan. And the reason the camps were so small was because there weren't that many troops in Afghanistan.

Most of the troops were in Iraq. And the reason the outpost was put at the bottom of three steep mountains was because they didn't have a lot of helicopters because all the helicopters were in Iraq. So they had to put the outpost near a road so they could resupply it and they'd get to and from it. And I mean, that's really the bottom line is like, this is another question about like, should we have been fighting two wars at the same time? And that's a whole other debate. But I mean, one of the reasons cop getting was where it was is because Afghanistan was at that point being fought on the chief. And, And that's why there was these small outposts,

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There's, so real small ball on the movie, something that's stuck out to me that I wanted to explore with you a little is, because it's not in your book, I don't think. This idea of thank you for your service. It's said in the movie many times sarcastically between the men. And then it said once,

towards the end, when the helicopter comes in, they get air support, and he says, thank you for your service, ma'am, very sincerely, but still with that tone of, you know, sarcasm might not be the right word, but sort of mocking those who say thank you for your service in sort of an offhanded way, which was happening a lot from 2006 to 2000 now, you know, you meet someone who served and you don't know what else to say because you know what they've given and what they've sacrificed. And so you just thank you for your service. was that an intentional choice by you and the team for the movie? And what do you suggest?

What do you tell people when you see them? So that was not in the book that was added to the movie. I didn't have a problem with it being added to the movie. I actually don't know where it came from. It felt right to me. I'd have to find out a lot of veterans served. A lot of veterans worked on the movie. So I assume it came from one of them.

I'll look into it. you know, there's a great book by a guy and I think it's David Finkel called Thank You for Your Service. They turned it into a movie called Thank You for Your Service. And it's basically, it's not sarcastic at all. But it is, the movie's not sarcastic. It's about how difficult it is to be a veteran.

And it's about the lives of people after war. But it is called, Thank you for Your Service. I don't know if sarcastically is the right. I know, it's not quite the right term. Yeah, it's kind of darkly. Yeah, I mean, I think that there was a lot of, to me, the addition of that, and maybe they said it, and I just didn't get it for the book. I don't know. But to me, it was just kind of a dark humor, which you do hear a lot about in war zones in order to survive. People do a lot of things like that. But look, I say thank you for your service to people, and I mean it. And I did not add that. to the script. I go, although, again, I don't have any problem with it. I don't know what else there is to say. Thank you for your service. Thank you for your sacrifice.

What you did mean, it means a lot to me and my family. I mean, I think that I've never met anybody who doesn't, I've never met a veteran who doesn't, who's offended by it. But I could see why troops would joke around about it. But that's a good point. I need to, I need to find out more about the origin of that because it's funny them saying it like they're they're giving each other crap thank you for your service like you know they're making and they're making fun of us right in a way they're making fun of us and we get to be in on the joke watching it yeah but then it's also an indictment of us watching it yeah yeah it's i mean that's why i thought it was so brilliant when they added it because it kind of works on that level like you can understand it's not like they

hate us. They do appreciate people saying it, but they also understand it's just an expression and it's literally the least somebody can do. The very least you can do is say, thank you for your service. Oh, I'm a good person now. I said that to somebody in the airport, you know. So I don't know, I don't know. I still say it, though. I don't want you to feel like you can't say it. Good to know. I think one of the things that I've, just in my own experience, have found is very difficult, particularly when you're dealing with discussions or reporting or depictions of these kinds of battles or attacks is any discussions with the family of those either who were killed or wounded or those who are involved in the battles themselves. What has been the reaction, you mentioned earlier, that you're part of this Facebook, group. You're in constant

communication with a lot of these soldiers and their loved ones. How did they react to this? I would think it would be incredibly difficult for some of them to watch this depicted on film. It's a great question.

We actually were so concerned about it that we had before the movie was even 100% done. It was mostly done, but there were still special effects and sound effects to add. Around the time of the 10-year anniversary of the Big Attack, we had a special screening in Washington, D.C., General Allen of the Brookings Institute, helped sponsor it. He also served as a commander in Afghanistan. And we had a special screening for veterans, not everybody, not all, you know, 700 people who served there, but for a few of them.

And most importantly, for the gold star families, for anyone who had a loved one whose death was depicted in the film, we, Millennium Films actually paid for them to fly to D.C., paid for their lodging, to see the film. And we had grief counselors there. We had three grief counselors there. And we showed them the movie. And this was, we were so nervous. Me and Rod Larry, the director and also the writers. And the producers, we were all nervous because we thought it was, and still think it is, a respectful tribute to their courage, to the nobility of their sacrifice, to, I mean, every single person killed that day was killed trying to do something for their brothers, you know, either supplying, you know, giving them ammunition or defending the base, whatever. Everybody was trying to do something to help somebody else. and but still you don't know what it's like for you know these guys who have served there to see the

recreation of it especially because the outpost itself the recreation of it the movie set was so similar it was freaky to the guys who had served there and then also as you know to see a loved one who's no longer with you depicted on on film and to see their death depicted on film what would that be like i mean i can't relate to any of that the service the the seeing a a fallen loved one depicted in a movie, seeing their death depicted. But thankfully, afterwards, you know,

I went around to all the families. You know, Ben and Ben Keating's parents, Ken and Beth Keating, and, you know, to every single person who was there, and they all felt positive,

as positively as you can feel, about the movie, that it honored them, that it was respectful, that it, that it was a true, view, that it wasn't, it's not, you know, it's not gratuitously violent. There's, there's, there's, there's, it's, there's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, and so, um, I mean, um, I mean, while you can never get a hundred percent of any group of people to agree on everything, I would say that for the most part, the feedback has been very, very positive and very, very supportive. And families, I mean, one of the other things you have to

remember is when I started writing this book in 2009, 2010, nobody knew about this. There's this, you know, it was just another day in this era. I mean, casualties are down in Afghanistan significantly now because the footprint is so much smaller and what we're doing there is so different. But in this era. I mean, Cop Keating was the deadliest day in 2009 with eight U.S. service members killed. But the year before it was not, nine were killed. I mean, like, it just, there were, there were these, you know, very deadly days going on, and people didn't, they didn't know, and people didn't pay attention, and they didn't know the names. And so the subtitle of the book was an untold story of American valor, and it's not

untold anymore. Um, when we, when we released the new copy of the book, it's now it's just called the outpost, um, the, the most heroic battle in Afghanistan, because it's not, it's not untold. I told it in my book, uh, two of the guys have now been awarded the Medal of Honor, Clint Romichet and Ty Carter. So the stories have been told, um, on that level. Uh, Romishay wrote a book, Red Platoon, uh, that, that, you know, sold a lot of, sold a lot of copies is a great book. Rodriguez wrote a book called Rise about his personal journey. Now this movie's out there. There's the Medal of Honor series on Netflix, 10 episodes. Two of them, two of the episodes are about this battle, one about Clint, one about Thai. So it has been told. So I think that

there is some, there's no such thing as closure, right? And there's no such thing as getting over the death of a loved one or a traumatic event. But I think it has been some measure of comfort that there was such an effort to tell the story. And so that people know the name Ben Keating or Josh Kirk or Rob Yaskos or whatever. So those names are not forgotten to the wind. And I think that that is helpful. Now, also, it's not, you know,

for the people who died at Cop Keating or in the book, but not in the movie, like it's not helpful to them you know because those stories have not been told so maybe i have to get a tv deal or something to tell the rest of the stories but but uh that actually leads to my next question which is what's the next untold story that you're going to tell jake what are you working on well i'm i mean i i've been lately just doing we're writing novels because it's so much uh less emotionally exhausting and it's just uh i mean writing the outpost and just the whole the whole experience is just heart-wrenching,

just because of all the pain and all the sacrifice. I will write another nonfiction book sometime, but I mean, I still can't believe that I wrote this book. Like, it's still strange to me. Like, I still can't believe that my wife let me come home from work every day and then just, like, work again in my study. and spend all my weekends and all my holidays and everything working on this book,

I can't believe she let me go to Afghanistan twice and fly all over the country interviewing these guys. I mean, it was such an obsession. So it's hard for me to just say, well, now I'm gonna do this battle, because it wasn't like that. It was called to, not called, but I became obsessed to tell the story.

So I don't know what's next. I'm working on another novel, which is a lot more fun and a lot more, more, a lot easier emotionally. Not writing novels is tough, but it's not like interviewing somebody about the death of their husband. That's... What's the plot of this one?

Well, the last book was called The Hellfire Club. It was a 1954 thriller during the McCarthy era where the hero is a young Republican. Congressman Charlie Martyr and his wife Margaret, and they moved to D.C. and get enmeshed in a big scandal of the time. So this one takes place a few years later, and it's basically... Bobby Kennedy, the Attorney General in 1962, basically blackmails them to go out to Hollywood and find out if Sinatra is actually mobbed up

or if it's just, you know, or if it's just kind of like a front for, you know, and not really something serious. So that's, so it's Charlie and Margaret in Hollywood during the Rat Pack era. And again, it's just, it's fun for me to write. It's not, you know. It just kind of sounds like maybe Jake Tapper doesn't know how to relax. That's fair. That's a fair observation. I don't know how to relax. It's true. It's true.

The rest of us are able to sit by a pool and enjoy our drinks with the little umbrellas in them, but not Jake Tapper. It's true. And like, even when I'm off this week and I feel like, oh my God, I'm not contributing anything to society. I do have difficulty with that. I don't know. maybe it's because of my upbringing. I don't know what it is. It's a little crazy. I agree. All right, Jake.

Scott Eastwood, Clint Eastwood's son is in this movie. Yes. Who plays Jake Tabor? In the movie that will portray Jake Tapper? Well, you know, I always think that it obviously needs to be somebody around my age who, I leave it up to you guys, but I mean, I think it has been suggested on Twitter when this question has been asked. It has been suggested that Jason Bateman. Some people say Jason Bateman wouldn't be bad.

You know, I would take Jason Bateman. He's, he's a big fan. Yeah, what's not the like? But I mean, I don't, I don't know. I mean, Steve, who do you think should play Jake? I mean, that's a really good question. You know, with my vast command of all things, pop culture, I'm just struggling literally to come up with the name of another actor who's about his age.

Paul Rod and I are a month apart. Oh, that would be really good. So, yeah, I mean, he's obviously much better looking than I am, but he could probably do it. I think he could probably do it. I don't think, but the thing is somebody said something, like who played, oh, Jack Schaefer asked me, who plays, who plays me in them. in the movie. I'm like, I'm not in the movie. Why would I be in the movie?

A guy who like tracks them down years later and asks them, they've asked them questions. It's the least heroic thing is. That's not entirely true. You are in the movie at the end with the interviews, which I, if I have one major critique of the movie, it's that I wish y'all had done more of that in the credits and that that had gone on longer.

So just for people who haven't seen the movie yet, at the very end. So one of the first things I did when I joined CNN was, I did a documentary about Clinton, and then Ty Carter got his Medal of Honor, and I did documentary about him. So, I mean, Jeff Zucker has been very supportive of this, I should note, and he let the movie show little excerpts of me interviewing Ty and me interviewing Clant, as well as interviews that Rod Larry did on the set of people who actually served there.

And to me, honestly, to me, I love that part of the movie, because it just reminds you, this isn't just the movie. This really happened to these guys. Here is the real Ty Carter. Here is the real Clint Romichet. They are now in this interview describing things you just saw, so you're familiar enough with what they're talking about. And you see how upset they are.

I thought that was great, Arad, to add. Just anything to remind people that this is real. This really... And how can we go watch the full documentaries as well? The full documentaries are... I had Zucker put them on. They're on the CNN gut. app. So you can go, if you have

CNN Go on your phone or CNN Go on your TV, on your smart TV, the documentaries are available. I had them, I had them, put them up there. One is called an unlikely hero. That's about Ty Carter, and an American hero is the one about

Clint Romochet. So they're both there. Just, I guess, Google, or not Google, search, hero on the CNNGo app. And you can see the real story with real footage. And, I mean, these guys are just, they're just incredible, you know. And it's funny because we all, we sit in D.C. and we, you know, we get horrified by nasty tweets and this and that.

And, like, it's what these guys going through. It's just, and people like them continue to go through is just unfathomable sometimes. So listeners, highly recommend the book, The Outpost by Jake Tapper. The movie is fantastic and just came out. on Google Play for rental or purchase and get the CNN Go app to watch the real stories with Jake interviewing some of the heroes of the movie and the book. Jake, thank you so much for telling the story. Thank you so much for coming here and sharing your story of telling the story with our listeners. I think, you know, you said, what have you done to contribute to society this

weekend? You've done a lot in telling these stories. So I think that has made a big impact. Well, thank you, Stephen and Sarah for having me on, and I really appreciate it. And as you know, I'm fond of both of you and the work you do. So thank you so much. You know,