The Dollop with Dave Anthony and Gareth Reynolds - 640 - Anne Hutchinson

Episode Date: July 2, 2024

Comedians Gareth Reynolds and Dave Anthony examine early colonist Anne Hutchinson Tour Dates Redbubble Merch Sources   Squarespace 

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Hey, man. Hey. Hey, brother. What's up? What's up, buddy? Good. How are you? Has the podcast started? Yep. This is the podcast.

You're listening to the dollop on the All Things Comedy Network. This is an American history podcast where each week we read a story from a thing to another person who's listening with me. Gareth Reynolds, who has no idea what the topic is going to be about. Cheers, buddy. Cheers. How many cocktails deep are you right now? You've had a couple. Sorry. I am just so Beside myself after that England victory

What a team what a when you see something come together like that it is It's it's amazing to behold England football has been paralleling the UK government with intent the whole time. 100%. They've just been trying to stay as consistent as possible, like the government, which is doing good today. Today they can celebrate and enjoy their incredible victory over the mighty Slovakia. Everyone thought Slovakia had that one in the bag, but

Slovakia, no, no, no, no, no. England only has about 70 million more people. So it's an amazing achievement. Surprising. I mean, you amazing achievement. It's impressive. I mean, you guys are great. I'm proud of my boys, yeah. Proud of my guys. Breathe it out.

You did it. Anyway, this is the Dollop Podcast. I am your host, David Anthony. I think we already did an intro and this one's getting real weird now. You okay? What's up with you lately? I have been just watching America the past few days.

And... Well, Dave, why don't we just say, if you really want to hear our thoughts on America, you can join our Patreon, where we really talk about how much we are filled with confidence and where it's going. What a week.

Also, if you enjoy this podcast, we had our 10 year anniversary recently and we recorded that and it was an episode by Jim Caviezel and we had a guest, James Domeon on it and you can still watch it. It'll be up for like five months on V so you can go there and if he's still slash the dollop. Yep Do that Hug a tree and the domain is

Absolutely on fire. Yes. Yes. Yes Okay 1591 Lordy Jesus Christo. 1590. There is a jet ski, by the way, a block away. This is in 1590. Right now, there's a jet ski a block away. OK. Huh?

Should I get a jet ski? Oh, for sale. Ah, ah. Anthony. I just I'm trying to become more with the Lord. You know what I mean? Is this the way I feel? That's how you want to walk.

You want to ride on water? Yeah. Like you walked on it. Yeah, right. Okay. Yeah. Get it. Yeah, right. Okay. Yeah, get it. I'd say get it. He walked on it before, you have to walk on it before you can ride on it. You know what I mean?

Got to crawl on water before you can walk on it, like they say. Ann Marbury was born in Oldford, Lincolnshire, England to an Anglican preacher, Francis Marbury and his wife, Bridget. Okay. Nothing so far, keep going. He was the, Anne's the third daughter of their 15 kids. Oh, fuck me. Or fucked her.

Yeah, they were really going at it. 15, and they lived? Yeah, 15 lived. They must have tried to have 45, unless they came out like a litter. That's wild. But I mean, it's not like you're, I mean, I guess if you start having kids when you're like 15,

you can go to your like 40, so 25 years. Sure. So she's pregnant, she's pregnant mostly from her teens until her 40s, I would say. Wow. What a life. Great, great time. Francis was a Puritan sympathizer who openly criticized the English Church and its policies. Sure. He was particularly against ordaining uneducated immoral

men as priests. That seems fair. That does not seem crazy. No, it seems like isn't that part of the idea? No. Just supposed to be like not any degenerate could just be like I'm a man of the cloth. No, it's really how it's just any degenerate is the thing. I don't agree. I want all your we take all your degenerates and your horny. That's one of the main. Is that? Yep. That's an edict. The church says that we take all your degenerates and you're unable to accept you. You're not horned That's one of the main. Is that? Yep. That's an edict? The church says that we take all your degenerates and your. We're unable to accept you. You're not horned up enough.

Yeah. So. If you, if you go in without a heart on and asked to be a priest, they don't let you in. Hmm. This is news. Criticizing the church at that time was basically treason. So Francis is censured and then he's tried and he's put in prison.

Wow. Had it coming. Once he gets out, he's put under house arrest. How do you monitor house arrest in 1590? Well, there's not a lot of people around. Still, it's like at night. If he leaves the house, people are gonna be like, there's Francis. But it's just you could, I feel like that is.

Listen, if you're making the case, no, now you have the anklet much harder. Cut your leg off. That is really one of the only ways to handle it. And yes, it's worth it though. Yeah, for a night of partying, always handle it. And yes, it's worth it though. Yeah. For a night of partying?

Always. Yeah. And just pop it back on. So while he's on house arrest, he writes a transcript of his trial from memory. He does it from memory, which is always the best way to come. Absolutely. Yeah, yeah. Of course.

Yeah. You want to wait a couple years too. And then later on, he would read that to Anne and her siblings along with the Bible. And of course Fox's book of martyrs, all the greats. All the best. Fox business. Yeah. Yeah. So Fox's book of martyrs was a book about Protestant

suffering at the hands of Catholics. And it's just all rhetoric. If you can imagine religious people thinking they're being persecuted and just yelling and screaming about all the time. Yes. I can. Francis' transcript of his trial framed him

as this brave Christian fighting an ignorant and stubborn establishment. So Anne grows up being taught there's little difference between the Anglicans and the Catholics. Okay. So when she's 15, they all moved to London, and they were there when Guy Fawkes does his... Yeah, naughty little...

Parliament, yeah, a little blown up parliament, naughtiness. Yeah, a little naughty. Although many, if not most, people around her interpreted this as proof of the evil of Catholicism. Hmm. Her father had impressed upon her the conviction that there was little difference between the Anglicans and Catholics,

even though the Catholics just try to blow everything up. We said that twice, so that feels like that's. Or I just thought you're highlighting it. Okay, still, okay. I'd go with that one. Okay, okay, sure, okay. So, Anne is told that the church needs reform and a real Christian would speak out against corruption and justice, that sort of thing.

No matter what the consequences are, you're just supposed to speak out like her God did. Right. So Francis died suddenly in 1611. The next year, Anne marries a well-off merchant, William Hutchinson, and they moved to Alford. Sure. Great Alford. Sure. The great Alford.

Lovely, yeah, au fourger. Yeah, go on then. It's not bad. There they heard about a new young charismatic rising Puritan preacher, John Cotton. The Cotton. The Cots. Cotton.

John Cotton. Little Cotton Tail. Johnny. Yeah, caught John. He's about 20 miles away. So they would start. A lifetime back then. Yeah, but they would start going to see him.

They would commute 20 miles to go listen to him. To listen to the sermons, yeah. Yeah. He's a strict Puritan. He knows the church needs reform, but he also doesn't want to leave it. He wants to work from within. And Anne and William become devoted to cotton.

And the reforms are just to sort of to what they're saying, like just make it like have a higher standard for your. Let's be honest. I don't care. Okay. I mean't care. Okay. I mean, yeah, I mean, this is religious stuff that my eyes glaze over and I don't care what your magical beliefs are.

I just, I'm just, I'm my guy. So I'm not coming at you. I know, I'm not seeing you coming at me. I'm just saying when I read this stuff, I don't care what the differences between your things. It's just too... It is mincing, yes between your things that is too mincing Yes, there's a lot of missing you've made up things to not like each other is basically what's happened You've right and it's very it is yes

There's the differences are sometimes you like you this is what you disagree on yeah So they're really in the cotton guns a hot hot product hot so cotton believes God's grace is the only factor in a person's salvation. And you can't do anything to win over God's favor. There's nothing you can do as a person to win over God. So you're automatically predetermined as far as like what your, is that what you mean?

Yeah, everyone's a sinner. So you the gods either get a Pick you or not pick you right? So isn't that just doesn't that validate the decision just do whatever the fuck you want You would think so like it but they're like you stuff but they're trying to still like live with it like play within the lines Yeah, I just murder and be like, look. 100%. They've already decided. The guest list has been made. So the ones gods have picked are called the elect. Sure.

And everyone else is eternally damned. God. Like you. Well, yeah, but that's gonna be the more popular party. I don't know if that's- You're gonna see most of your- More fun. Probably, probably.

More fun. Probably gonna be, I don't know. If you have to live by all the constraints of religion or you just get to go where all the sinners are, I'm like, yeah, you know what I mean. Yeah, it's like, do you wanna be a Jehovah's Witness? No. Put me in club sin.

Yeah. Jehovah's Witness, I actually- Do you wanna be a Jehovah's Witness? No. Put me in clubs in. Yeah. Jehovah's Witness, I actually... Do you want to be a Jehovah's Witness or Fucktown? Yeah, I... it's tough. I mean, there's so many pluses to Jehovah's Witnesses. Yeah. So, the elect of the chosen ones, everyone else is damned. No one knows who is what.

Like, you don't know. That's God's decision. So you should act like you're saved and praise God. No one knows who is what. Like you don't know, that's God's decision. So you should act like you're saved and praise God. Now there it is. Even if it turns out you're going to hell. That's a bad. You're right, it doesn't make sense because. I would go the other way.

I would be like, all right, look, if I'm like, if there's, I have no influence over this, what's the point? But I guess then what you're doing is you're kind of saying, oh no, I'm definitely going to hell because I'm doing this sort of stuff. But I would be the outlier. I'd be like, fuck it. Yeah.

What was cocaine invented? Tons of outliers. Yeah. About six years ago. So this is like the general understanding of the Puritan belief, but Cotton put a lot of emphasis on grace, not works. So most Puritans thought doing good deeds, attending church, reading the Bible,

makes a Christian one of the elect. Okay. Yeah. So over time, Cotton becomes Ann's spiritual mentor, like that's her guy. So over time, Cotton becomes Ann's spiritual mentor, like that's her guy. Her sister Mary marries a Puritan preacher named John Wheelwright, everybody, they're all in. Right.

He encourages Ann to hold meetings in her home during which women, mostly women, would discuss the latest sermon, the Bible spiritual stuff. Right? Sure. So they have a little- Cool hangs. Yeah. Yeah, they're having cool hangs, talking about Jesus spiritual stuff. Right? So they have cool hangs. Yeah. Yeah, they have cool hangs. Talking about Jesus and whatnot.

Just good stuff. In 1633, the church starts purging Puritan pastors. And Cotton goes into hiding until he can get on a ship to New England. Okay. And the authorities of Mass. It's kind of a weird move for your guru. Well, he's got a Yeah. What do you mean

going to New England? Just high just being like I gotta get out. It'll be like, wait, aren't we like, are we like sacrificing everything for this? Well, yeah, that's also wouldn't you be in a rush to get up there? To get up? Oh, the heaven? Yeah. Maybe you might be right about that, yeah. But look, I don't think we should. You think St. Peter has one of those little bouncer clickers?

Yeah. I don't think. Two out, I could take two in. You and I, who are clearly going to hell, should question these great men. I'm not going to hell. And women. Yeah, you are.

Uh-uh. So, he's gonna go to New England. The authorities of Massachusetts Bay Colony, they've been trying to get him to come for years, because this guy's a, he's a big deal. He's a big deal. So in 1634, Anne and her family follow him. Now, John Winthrop is the leader of the colony.

And he's all about the colonies conforming and everyone having the same vision and just, you know. Sure, same paging. Yeah, just. Sounds like a good idea. So he wants the colony to be like a model for the world. He's like, this is, we're setting up like a nice theology here, the theocracy. Sure. So that's the world. He's like, this is, we're setting up like a nice theology here, the theocracy.

Sure. So that's the plan. And only people who believe in the vision are really welcome there. They don't want anybody, like people like you coming in and like saying you're- Fuck, what is your deal? I would crush this colony.

So Cotton got along well with Winthrop and the others. And so did the Hutchins. And so everyone's getting along. Great. William was a successful and wealthy merchant, and they built a big house in downtown Boston right across from the Winthrop's. Sure.

Downtown Boston back then, sure. Yeah, it's like eight houses. Yeah, I mean, it's a picture. He's just like, ah, dude, a Duncan. It's crazy, dude. So Winthrop called Ann a goodly woman who quickly became popular and respected, right? He, she's a skilled midwife, everyone likes that.

Yeah, a lot of women need that because a lot of women are dying during childbirth back then, so very important. Just crazy. during childbirth back then, so very important. I mean, just crazy. Yeah. And started, I've been a boom on because it's gonna get bad, whatever you're doing.

Oh. And started holding meetings in her home again. It's popular with quality women. And it starts as discussions at first about cotton sermons. It's like all it's about her reputation as like the spiritual lady just keeps growing and over time the talks are less about Bible study and more about and sort of preaching. Okay, just kind of personal religious philosophy sort of her. What's your car?

But she's preaching her. Yeah, she's riffing. She's in the zone a little bit. Yep. She's in the zone. Okay, women started then bringing their husbands to hear her. They're like, you got to hear this lady preach. So men start.

I'm sure the men were super open to that back then too. Oh, for sure. Oh, oh. A woman. Men did come, men were coming and listening. One admirer quote, I'll bring you to a woman who preaches better gospel than any of your black coats

who have been at the Niniversity. Got him, got him, got him good. Niniversity, so right, so we're saying the School of Hard Knocks. Street Smarts. Uh huh. Uh huh. Uh huh. Then her sermons start to criticize the local pastors. There we go. Except for Cotton and her brother-in-law, Wheelwright. Okay. except for Cotten and her brother-in-law, Wheelwright. Okay. So John Wilson is a senior pastor,

and when Anne first hears him preach, she thought he was not up to Cotten's level. I love these, the diss tracks. The idea that... Yeah, it's very like... You just again would think that people would be like, that's pretty good. But also instead of like, man, this guy, he's, he don't know shit. Yeah.

So she's doing that. She, she says he's preaching a false doctrine of works as justified. So again, now this is back to the thing, right? You either, you're born going to hell or you can work for it. You can work your way out of it, right? So the other guys she's saying are preaching,

you can work your way out of a thing. Right. So he's, which's saying are preaching though, you can work your way out of it thing. Right. So he's, which is the standard Puritan, show your faith by works, which is based on an actual Bible verse. And so, but Anne's like that now, that's not the interpretation of that verse. Yeah, it's not, that's not what they're saying in the verse.

So Wilson and Winthrop disagree with her interpretation, but her following is growing. Right. So Anne's brother-in-law, John Wheelwright, he ally of Cotton's, right? A minister who was opposed, Thomas Shepherd, had at first written to Cotton about his discreetments. He's like, look man, I'm hearing what you're saying about the

War talking mad shit business and I got a little bit. How about you fucking you know, a lot of attitude Yeah, there's a lot of shit coming out of your mouth. That's you know, not great So now it's becoming a little more on the surface and Will Wright takes note of the quote pulpit aggression and he begins to include his critical views of the covenant of works being preached by shepherds. So now they're starting to do it in their sermons. They're starting to talk shit in their sermons. So things are getting tense.

By 1636, Anne is now one of the most popular people in the colony, and she's supported by not just Cotton Wheelwright, but there's a new governor, Sir Henry Vane, who has just taken over, he's 23 years old. He's a 23 year old, hot new governor. Vane is, he's hot. Yeah, yeah, I'm saying he's hot.

I'm saying he's hot in the sense that he just came on scene. You're gonna love this next preacher. Right, okay, this guy's unbelievable. This guy preaches all over the colony. So his father, Vane's father. He's on Variety's 10 Preachers to Watch. Vane's father was on Charles I Privy Council. So Henry's very educated.

He's a 23 year old educated, young, connected dude. I'm starting a Privy Council just so people know. And he believes in religious tolerance. Wow. Yeah, and he goes to Anne's meetings. So Wilson and Winthrop think Anne has bewitched Vane. They're like look he's 23 She's bewitched the new governor. Like what else could be happening? He can't be saying now

It's a curse And and also other people she thinks they think she has mystical powers. She's bewitching them Yeah, what do you yeah, what else could it be it's weird that's what it is they said she was obviously exerting a potent force that was dividing what used to be a together colony right she's breaking it apart mm-hmm Trump in October yeah Tom in October 1636 Winthrop started noting the tension in the colony and pointed the finger at Anne. Okay. Woman.

One problem. Yeah, woman, right? Woman, because I don't know if you've noticed, but Cotton is around, but also woman. Yeah, with her powers. Yeah, magical woman powers. Yep. Winthrop said she was a threat to the order of his city set on a hill.

Doesn't that sound nice? Yeah, it's Ragony. We had everything great here until the lady came rolling through. I kind of agree. He said her meanings were a quote, thing not tolerable nor comely to the sight of God not fitting for your sex.

So she's undermining all women. Yeah, basically. But she's popular. Yeah, more than most popular. Because she's probably a good speaker, I would imagine she's got some charisma. Sure. But also I mentioned she's a lady, right?

Yeah. Oh, you think that it's mostly guys? No, I think that she's a charismatic speaker and stuff. But I think that the other dudes are just like, well, this woman shouldn't be. Right. I'm a man, so why would you listen to her? Right.

So, one way to interpret her teaching is that she was claiming the vast majority of colony clergy are preaching a false doctrine. Man. That's gotta be. Like it's the majority of people. That's some earth-shattering stuff. That would fuck your colony up.

Yeah, it would. So, Anne and her followers were called Antinamines. Terrible name. Because of their assistance on grace over work. So, authorities held a closed meeting with Anne and Cotton in December 1936, and they call, it's a conference in private, basically. It's a meeting, it's a private meeting. And they make it seem like they're fine,

and they gave the impression this is just a meeting. Everyone's convictions are out there. We're not mad, we just wanted to chat. So they get to a place where they're all in agreement. I'm not sure what they did, but Cotton and Wheelwright said a covenant works did help finding grace in the eyes of God. So they kind of caved a little bit.

They're like, yeah, I can see how, you know, doing good works, like maybe help, yeah. So a lot of parishioners are now loyal to Anne. They don't care what's going on at the meeting. They already have their beliefs. So they want a guy who believes in the grace of God to take the grace of God to take the place of John Wilson as the second minister in the Bostonian church.

So they want, they're like, look, there's a lot of us who believe that, give us the two slot, right? Yeah, the late show. Winthrop is like, nope, no, uh-uh. Wynthrup is like, nope, no, uh-uh. This leads to another meeting with Cotton and Ann, and in this one, they don't agree. Okay, here we go. They're not on the same page.

At this point, every time there is a meeting of magistrates and ministers, they're just fucking yelling at each other. So now it's totally dissolved. The leaders are not totally just at each other's throats. It's very, I mean there are a lot of, I mean this could be for most episodes, but there are a lot of similarities to what we experience

in our leadership today in this. Yeah, but also like, remember, they're literally at each other's throats because one person is saying you can work. You can get into God's good grace. Yeah, I remember when I said the thing about made up, made up stuff that there are people are arguing about. When does that come in?

When is that gonna come into play in the story? So insane. So on, on December 7th, Henry Vane resigns as governor because of all the infighting, in front of a special session of deputies. And first he says, he has to deal with some stuff back in England, he's gotta get back there,

but they keep questioning him and he breaks down and he blurts out that God's judgment would quote, "'Come upon us for these differences and dissensions.'" So he's just like, "'We're all going to hell because of what you guys are doing. Okay. So members of the church talk him in,

they're like, look, you got to stay, man. We need you here. And so he ends up not resigning, but he's like foot out the door. Okay. So the general court starts debating who is responsible for all this.

I got an idea. It's an official. So now it's gone from like. Yeah. Now it's an investigation. It's an official thing, right? Right. They call for a general fast.

A general fast? Yeah. Yeah. This was the thing. Everyone stop eating? Yeah. This is a fine move on one day. So January, strange move. No, right.

But we're moving, right? No, they're hoping the fast will restore peace. What is weird? Kind of late. Let me walk. There's only one thing we can do now. We all must stop eating for 24 hours to get on the same page again.

Yeah, let's all get cranky. We need to get super hungry and cranky. Let's all get fasting. What we need is a bit more irritability. This podcast is brought to you by Squarespace. Dave, we love our boys. We love our boys and ladies. We love everyone.

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Do it. And we're brought to you by Airbnb Canada. Listen, I'm on the road a tremendous amount all the time. My life is travel and I always go with Airbnb if I can, just because you get a better experience. And my mother was in town recently and I ended up booking her an Airbnb instead of a hotel and she just had hip surgery.

So I had to find a place that was very accommodating to her needs and found a place that she still talks about to this day. You know, like I've said before, I always like a home over a hotel. I call it a home tell. No I don't. But I really like it and she like I said she really really appreciated it. But recently I was wondering like while I'm gone what about my place? Can my place pay in Airbnb? And the answer is yes. It can be as easy as putting your place up and then having a little more scratch generated from someone staying at my place while I'm on the road.

So whether you could use a little extra money to cover some bills or something more fun, your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how much at airbnb.ca slash host. That morning of the fast, cotton preaches, and then after him, wheelwright preaches. Now wheelwright. How good are potatoes? Sorry. Um.

You, to get to God's grace, you cannot work with potatoes. How good would ice cream be right now? Or even some oats? So, Will Wright advocates the free grace of God over works. Some clergy say his sermon was, quote, censorable and incited mischief. Okay. Which is what you do, by the way, on this podcast. No, that's actually what your role is. You incite a lot of mischief. Okay. Which is what you do, by the way, on this podcast.

No, that's actually what your role is. You incite a lot of mischief. You incite mischief. No, I've seen you doing that more. Historian Michael Winship called it, quote, the most notorious Boston contribution to the escalation of pulpit rhetoric. So whatever he said, we'll write,

he like, he blew the fucking doors open. Yeah, he got people riled up. Right. He was just, he got up there and said, he was like, you can't do anything for God to help you! Like just. Yeah! It's already predetermined! It's already predetermined!

Fuck yeah! How good is this? So Winthrop was really upset. Sure. What was said. And he wrote that those who preached the works were anti-Christ. Jesus Christ. I mean, anti-Christ. So it's got up a notch. Yeah. As it should.

He's saying the people. Yeah, but they just keep, I mean, again, I'm not trying to like, but it is so, like, it's like, now it's like everyone who does everything is either a Nazi or wants to kill every, like all Americans or whatever, you know? And again, they're not living their lives any differently. It's just a thought.

No, it's just that they think at the end. No, it really is about the guest list at the end of all of this. Yeah, because they're all working and all living according to God. And they're so close to each other on this. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

It's just fucking. It's just like you order the exact same meal and one of you likes ketchup and the other's like, I have mustard, it'll be all right. You're like, we're going to war. It's worse than that. It's if you both order a burger and you put ketchup on it and you're both eating it.

One goes, I mean, ketchup isn't great. It doesn't taste that great. That's all. How about this? The difference is, no, no, no, here's what it is. It's the same burger and one of you puts ketchup on it and the other puts ketchup on the side and you're dipping it into the side

instead of having it on the burger. That's right. That's what it is. Yeah, so yeah, they're anti-Christ. But this fires up the free grace advocates and they intensify their crusade. During services, they start questioning ministers about their doctrines.

So now, ants people are going in to sermons and being like, oh really? You could work, you could really work? You work to get on God's side? Really? Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. The man in the clouds is paying attention to that. Idiots. Henry Vane becomes super active in this shit. Wheelwright continues to make offensive sermons. Other ministers are taking note of all that he's saying. Right. And then Wheelwright gets called in front of the general court on March 9th.

Okay. There's, so the court is 12 magistrates and 33 deputies of the court and will write is charged with preaching on a fast day, a heretical and seditious sermon tending to mutiny and disturbance. So they're basically saying not only was he being mutinous, it was on a fast day. Thank you. We're all hungry. We weren't supposed to not be eating. Shut up.

I mean, basically the saying is the fast day was supposed to make God come around and create harmony. At some point, don't you want some sort of confirmation? Wouldn't you start being like, where the hell is, he should just come down here and referee this match a little bit. Give us a note. Give us an idea, something.

So, yeah, they're basically saying all this stuff, people going into the churches and heckling, this is all on this guy. So the whole situation goes on for a bit, and then Wheelwright is declared guilty of contempt and sedition. But a lot disagree, and this just creates a lot of resentment.

And a document is then made that strongly argues opposition to the decision. And 60 men sign it, many of who are like high guys in the community. Sure. So now the leaders are right. So the leaders are putting themselves out there and saying, hey, we're with this shit. Oh, this is getting tense, Gareth. Listen, everybody's right in my opinion. Yeah, thank you. The next election for governor is moved to Cambridge.

Okay, so they basically moved it moved it because they're it's gerrymandering they're moving it away from an area where it can be Less affected by the right takes right so they it's really if that's what I'd say I compared to it's gerrymandering So they're trying to lessen the influence and followers it works So vein loses the election So it's May 19 1637 1637, and Winthrop wins. So Winthrop's back. So if you can imagine a guy who's total. Go ahead.

You want to do it or you want me to? Yeah, you can. Okay, so a guy who's lost power, fallen out a little bit, and because of the, well, there's a bit of a vacuum and he steps in and he's got power again because of some shady moves and now everyone's probably like, this could get dicey. This could get bad.

So, Winthrop's back. Sorry, so now Winthrop and his people start worrying about all these Anne Hutchinson types coming across the Atlantic. They're like, well, we can't have more of this shit. How are you going to stop this? Well, you stop the immigrants, don't you? Oh, Christ, we're going to build a wall. Winthrop said many, they're called Grindeltonians.

And they're not sending us their best. It's either Grindeltonians or Grindeltonians, and he says they're coming as reinforcements. Wow. I've heard his name before, because I know him as, yes. Yeah, he's a's a but I didn't know he was this sort of like Like that kind of figures religious. Yeah. Well also that it seems like I mean, you know people use that as a cudgel And like that's a way of Dave, please. I'm in the middle of something people use it bless you people use it as a way to sort of

You know, I mean again, it, bless you, people use it as a way to sort of, you know, I mean, again, it's how you curry favor in your direction so that you can hold on to power, which I know is rare in positions of authority, whether it be religious or governmental. Well, thankfully nobody does that anymore. No, because we learned our lessons. That's right. So they're worried about these these Hushensons coming, right? The Grendeltonians. Someone's going to be like, it's Grendeltonians. All right. Yeah, it is Grendeltonians. But in reality, they're only about one of that one of every 25 men is what it's estimated that they are. But a minister shepard still warns that the colony was on the brink of bloody anarchy.

But like we said at the beginning, they want everyone to agree. That's their whole thing. And they just want everyone to be on the same page. That's an easy thing to say that that's the edict when it's kind of your when you're like, as long as you agree with mine. Well, it's like we all here understand that I'm right. And let's just make that our theme. Yeah, if everyone here could not be human beings,

could you not be human beings? It seems like there's a lot of independent thinking going on here, which is really not helping the original rule of the playground. It's so nuts. So, the court passes a law that no, so people who are not of their belief system are called strangers.

So they're basically immigrants, right? So people that pass a law that no strangers could come to the colony for more than three weeks without the court's permission. Okay, so we have a- It's a visa. Yeah, yeah, right. Yeah, we have a- It's a visa. Yeah, yeah, right, yeah, we have border control.

Wintem said this is needed to keep the number of free grace people down. Wow. So, Wheelwright goes before the court again, and he said if he is guilty of sedition, they should put him to death, because that's what you do with seditionists. So if they did that, then he'd be a martyr, right?

So the court does nothing and they defer the sentencing. They're like, oh, we'll sentence you later. So the tension is continuing between the factions. Fishermen. Fishermen? Yell, yes. Oh, okay, I thought that was a guy, okay. Fishermen would yell to immigrant ships coming into Boston Harbor, quote, Fisherman? Yell. Yes. Okay. I thought that was a guy.

Okay. Fishermen would yell to immigrant ships coming into Boston Harbor, quote, the churches are on fire. What are they saying? They're exactly. Oh, that just everyone. What is that? What are they?

Everyone's lost their shit. Okay. Yeah. That's gotta be a good energy when you're coming in. Oh, cool. Well, also like someone yells out be a good energy when you're coming in. Oh, cool. Well, also like someone yells at you and then you got to interpret it.

Wait, right. Yeah, everything seems fine. We don't see any smoke. Yeah. So Anne is now so popular, she estimated a quarter of the city are visiting her house each week. Wow.

Dude, she's sick, dude. So she has a meeting for women, she has a meeting for men, and she has a mixed meeting. I mixed, please. I go mixed, yeah. God, she's good, huh? We should get out of here.

You ever go to play with the Rock at Sun Sunset? No, I haven't actually. It's pretty gray. Just go out there and buckle your shoes a little bit. Get comfortable. God, what a crazy time. Maybe bring some wine or whatever. Oh, a little blood, sure, absolutely. A little blood of the dude.

Blood of the guy? Yeah. Oh, body. of the guy? Yeah. A little body. Could be nice. Yeah. Get away from it all for a little while. Watch the ocean splash. All wet.

Yeah, wet. That rock's really hard, you're sitting on that hard rock. Yeah, jagged rocks. Feel it digging in to crevices. Really getting in there. Getting in there a lot. It can happen. Oh, okay.

Jesus Christ. I'm actually, I'm just gonna go home, take a rest. Gosh, that was crazy, okay. So, Winther believes it is the place. It's the hotbed of descent in the colony. Jane Hawkins, who is a Boston midwife, ex-Puritan trans prophetess and rumored witch, would often go there.

So they're like, well, there's fucking this crazy nut bag. Pretty sure she's a witch. Yeah. It can't be 100%. You know the problem with witches, the witches do a lot of closet spells. It's not out in the open. So not only is a witchy lady going to these meetings

a lot of time, but she's always the first to agree with Ann. And Ann, because of that, has Jane over and feeds her. And locals said Jane, quote, followed Christ for loaves, because Ann was giving her so many meals. Okay. I get that. On July 12th, the ship of Lincolnshire immigrants,

including Ann's brother in Los Samuel arrive. Okay. And they're grilled about whether or not they know Will Wright and they demand that they disavow his beliefs. And the immigrants are like, we're not disavowing his beliefs. So they're like, okay, you only can be here for four months

and then you gotta fucking go. These rules are really weird. They are really weird. Like the time of like four months is like, that's enough. Maybe they wanted him gone, I don't know, it's July, so maybe it's a seasonal thing, like. Sure. Well, you can stay here and help with the crops.

You're not gonna be here for Christmas. Yeah. So, Cotton's people are just really pissed off about this because they're letting in what they consider blast fevers, right? All these fucking, all these, you can help yourself with God people. They're letting all them, all these profane assholes,

but they're keeping out the real Christians. So that's how they view it. So the cotton people are discussing, starting their own colony at this point. They're just like, we gotta do it. Let's just get the fuck out of here. Vane goes back to England and he's like, I'll be back. I got stuff to do over there, business.

My dad, but I'm coming back. His supporters shoot off cannons when he leaves the harbor. It's like a big. Kill him! Get him! While they're shooting off cannons and celebrating how great a man he is, the other side is just acting like the devil is leaving.

A sonnade, I think it's called the sonnade. I should probably look this up, but I didn't know I was going to do the script, so shut the fuck up. So, but. To be fair, I have not said anything. No, I know, but you know, we'll get that. A sonata was held to try to.

You know I'm doing a lot of the negative commenting from sock puppets, right? I know. Okay. Sonata was trying to, they're going to work all the problems out, right? So it's a big churchy meeting. Sure.

At this Cotton backs off things he and his followers and believe. So Cotton's like, Oh, come on. He's trying to be political, right? Right. So he's like, I mean, look, it's, it's sure. There's probably some stuff you could, I mean, I, I feel like you guys think I've really painted a whole black and white thing. And I was just kind of spitting some thoughts. I really talking, I was working through some stuff.

Oh, yeah. I was just, I did. I say that is very interesting. Now that I hear that back. It is. So all of his people are super disappointed. The Anne's of the world and the Wheelwrights. Okay. Of course. So this group of, this official meeting, they agree Anne and her kind are radicals

and they're wrong. Okay. So this not also found no biblical basis for people to meet every week to listen to a woman in a house. I still think they're looking for that. Yeah, right, you mean there's no clear like in the Bible, like, and once a week you should probably meet at a lady house.

Yeah, they're probably looking for it at very specific, like, no, no, you don't go listen to a lady because it's not in the Bible that you can go to someone's house and hang out. As if the Bible's supposed to be like, you can go over to a house and hang out with a lady. What else can you do? Boy, I really thought it was gonna be

the things you couldn't do, but here we go. This is gonna be a much longer list. I really thought it was gonna be the things you couldn't do, but here we go, this is gonna be a much longer list. But the, so this is not as basically, it's an amicable result. So it's basically an agreement to condemn and despise each other. Like that's kind of what they came down to.

So the court meets again in November and this time they push Wheelwright to voluntarily leave the colony. They're like, you should just self-deport. You should leave now on your own will. And he says, well, that would be saying I'm guilty, and I'm not guilty, so. What about that?

A couple days later, they finally convinced him quote. He is by the court Disfranchised and banished so they boot him Okay, well wrong. It's gone. They gave him they give him until March. So he's got like six months Jesus that's so weird, too What a power move to be like you get get the fuck out. You have six months. So take your time, say goodbye, collect your things, get stuff in order. I assume that's cause it's November.

And if you go out there in winter, you could die. Yeah, but that's so, that still seems so sympathetic towards like, but you would have, I would just think they'd be like, yeah, die, go. Yeah, yeah, yeah. What care are you? But they said you can stay till March, but you can't preach during that time.

And he was like, yeah, no, I'm fucking, I'm preaching. Out of here, oh, I'm preaching, okay. Yeah, so they're like, well, now you have two weeks. Jesus Christ. So he leaves. Okay. He leaves and he goes north about 50 miles north of Boston and that's where he ends up.

Natick. And then they put Ann on trial. For being a woman. Just being a heretic. For all, for fucking sedition and everything else. Saying that. Right. Yeah, it's just the business as they say.

The underlying charge is sedition, but they are also like, she's responsible for a lot of the problems. It's like the charges are like sedition and all the other shit. That's kind of what they're doing. They're not like explicitly spelling out what she's on trial for. Well, I think they would probably have trouble doing that. Well, that's what they, but I think through the court process, they're trying to find the actual charges. That's how it works. I thought you were going to say something. I

was going to maybe work. I don't know. I was like, try to work a bit, but then I'm like, I don't know. Yeah. I'm just trying to think of bit, but then I'm like, I don't know. That right. Yeah. I'm just trying to think of like a trial that had started before you had the charges. You'd be like, yeah, how do you plead? We'll fill in the blank soon. Confused, your honor. Yeah. So but they're just like, she's responsible for all this shit.

So she keeps holding meetings after this synod condemned them, she keeps going. So this is a civil trial, not a criminal trial, right? So she's the first woman defendant ever in the colonies. She's the first woman put on trial. Do you know what surprises me is that the judicial system is so similar to this, like... Well, it's based on the same, like, I think, like, Roman judicial stuff.

But you would think that it's still so, like, it's weird when things last that long and... I'm finding that people don't like to change that much. Really? Well, it worked out for Rome. Humans do this thing where they go, well, if it works, don't change it, and it's not working.

Well, yeah, we have this adherence to like, we're like, look, they were so smart, and it's like, look, they were really not, they were like, they had tiny feet, small brains. They thought if you felt someone's bumps, you knew what kind of character they had on their head. They were, right, we all, we're the first podcast that is coming back out

pro-phrenology. Yeah, we're a phrenology podcast. Without questions. So, like I said, it was a civil trial. At the beginning of the trial, Anne did not know what all the charges are against her. No one does, they're trying to find it out. So, Winthrop is trying to figure them out.

As he goes along, he's in charge of the trial. He couldn't actually accuse of her contempt against the state or sedition because she's a woman and that means she has no public role. So she can't be seditious if she doesn't have a public place to be seditious. There's- God damn it.

Sexism's screwing us. Fuck. Shit. Damn this woman. She can't be silenced or punished with disenfranchisement because she has no vote or voice already because she's a woman. So they're trying to find a way to punish a woman.

She's in a real sweet spot right now. So the trial goes on for three days. During it, the magistrates try to, she's smarter than them. So there's a lot of transcripts of the trials, and she's smarter. She's better than them. She's baddened down on the shit.

Also maddening to them. Yeah, like it just turned, it's just turning into pretzels. Also much more confirmation for the witch move. Or she's really witching it up out there. It's Christ. So they tried to the whole time, get her to admit to some mistakes so they can charge her with it. But she's just smarter and she's better debating.

But by the way, being smarter is probably her just being like, no. Like, please say it is. Cotton's a judge and he, during the trial, tries to stand up for her and sort of acts as an intermediary, but the majority just want her fucking silenced. I'm sure they were like, should we cut off her tongue?

Like, I'm sure they were that. should we cut off her tongue? Like I'm sure they were that. Right. So the conversation, remember that, in that meeting that she and Cotton had, the private meeting, well they were gathering evidence. That's not so much a meeting as, you know, entrapment in a way. Discovery. Yeah, so they're now using what she said in those meetings as evidence.

And the conversation which the ministers had with Hutchinson and Cotton, it was December 1636, that was a while ago, but it's literally introduced as evidence. And Anne's charged with disturbing the peace through unorthodox views and unwarranted criticism of ministers who are her spiritual superiors because they have penises. So does that was that on there due to the penis? I guess it's kind of baked into everything really.

Yeah, it's big. I guess it's baked into everything really. Yeah, it's baked into everything. Put in balls on there. And of course, on account of the penises. No, balls too. Jesus Christ. You're describing a eunuch. The balls guys really, the balls guys really kind of

get in a little bit. I need to get to me balls. The way you're phrasing it, look, we think. Hot sweaty balls. Stop. We think the way that we phrased it, look, we think... Hot, sweaty balls. Stop. We think the way that we phrased it makes a lot of sense. It's really for the penis. We're going to assume the penis to have balls,

so let's just... They don't all matter. What do you mean? My brother was a eunuch. Well, it's your brother. Look, if we have to go back and... I back and bite them off, what are you talking about? Did you bite your brother's balls off? Did you bite your brother's balls off?

I just said I didn't. This is the weird thing to say you didn't do. I didn't do it. Did you bite your brother's balls off? No, we were not on a canoe when I bit his balls off. What are you talking about? What are you talking about right now? I'm saying that never happened.

It's a very specific way of saying that something didn't occur. Did you bite your brother's balls off in a canoe? Did you? No! How? No, I just said I didn't. They don't. But it's just so specific. What? I would know the taste if I had done that and I don't. Does it even mean? Do you say chicken?

I'm not a chicken. Did you? Did you? Did you buy your brother's balls off in a canoe and found that it tasted very much like chicken? I wouldn't say chicken. Look, look, okay, look, look, no. We are not putting balls in the,

look, we'd have to go back and revise it and put balls in over and over again, and we're just not gonna do that. Well, that's leaving a window for men to bite other men's balls off. I think there's only one person. Legally. Jesus Christ.

Legally. I'm seeing a window. What do you want us to do? You want us to put in a balls rule so that you feel less inclined to bite off people's balls? Because it's very obvious that you bit your brother's balls off in a canoe. Look, why don't you and I No, no, we're not going in a canoe. No, we're balls off in a canoe. Look, why don't you and I?

No, no, we're not going in a canoe. No, we're not going in a canoe, no. They sink. No, we're not going in a canoe. When you throw them in the water. It's what? All right, I'm gonna get in the canoe with this guy and try to figure it out. Johnny, could you get my razor teeth?

Okay, this feels teed up for. By the way, we will be doing our canoe ball brother stuff. Netflix has picked it up. Yep. Not a joke. I think you and I were the only two comedians not involved in the Netflix is a joke festival, by the way. That's fine, I'm actually totally fine with it.

I'm mad. Are you? Because it's just doing sets around Los Angeles. Imagine. So, they try to charge her with antinomism, which is the thing that they were calling them, claiming she rejected the value of good deeds and proper behavior.

But that charge easily, she wanted to be false. Like she was easily able to, whatever, bat that one away. Just prove that. As far as preaching without authority, she said it was at her house, which is common. People talk in their houses, and her sermons are just saying what she saw. So people can't talk in their houses

about what just happened at church. She's good, she's good. By the way, only confirming her witchiness. They're like, but they let the, look at the witch spin. So they go back and forth. It's just, it's just, I'm going to say bada bing, bada boom. Is that fair? Don't.

The Winthrop tries to say she was holding meetings that were wrong and Anne was saying, quote, oh, so no one can have a group of women over? Is that, you can't have women together in a house? Cool, yeah, if you're cool with that, yeah, for sure. No, that's just horrible. So no women in a house, no groups of women. Great, yeah.

Okay, so we can't get together, I feel like. So when you have one of your parties, we can't all cook for you because we can't be in the house together. Is that what you're saying? God damn it, she keeps doing this shit. Another magistrate had to say he didn't think women's meetings were unlawful.

He was like, yeah, no actually women should. They're distasteful, but not unlawful. So that argument leads to a charge of undermining ecclesiastical authority by criticizing ministers, and she said she had been given spiritual gifts by God and could see who was among the elect and who was not. So she overstepped.

She should have. She pushed it because now she's like, God gave me a list. Yeah, basically. Yeah. Okay. And that's why she said only cotton was, could actually really minister the New Testament. He is the fabric of our lives. So when she said that, when she said,

I've been given the gift to see who is what, there was literally a murmur through the court. Murmur, watermelon, watermelon. Murmur, murmur, murmur. By telling others which minister was trustworthy and which could be ignored, she was looking after people's spiritual welfare. That's her argument.

So now the judges have a charge because she is claiming knowledge only God could have. Right? And then I just heard your stomach, by the way. That was my throat. Why is your stomach in your throat? No, my throat, you know, it's just one of those backwards like,

yeah, I can't help it. So your stomach's in your throat. I'm not gonna get into this anymore, but you can reach out to my people, if you like. I had a woman at my show the other night who was a Gastroenterologist and she said that sometimes and I still don't know if she was serious or not That after they use one for like an endoscopy or whatever it is. It might be used for ass

What's going on go ahead? You had a story didn't Go ahead. You had a story, didn't you? So she now goes off. Sure. She's tired of all the bullshit. It's been three days. She gives a big old speech. And after Winthrop announced her revelations are delusions and the entire court, except for a couple of ministers, cried out.

You know what's funny is how all of them are wrong. It can't be because the entire court, except for a couple guys at once, yell out, we all believe it, we all believe it. Like that's their. That they believe the Winthrop. Right, yeah. That she's basically saying she's guilty.

Yeah, right. I mean That she's basically saying she's guilty. Yeah, right. I mean, but I mean like in looking back now, you're like, yeah. Like there had to be some guy who was like, I don't know if it's true. Oh, for sure. Oh, you know there were a couple of guys in there who were just like, come on.

Who were just like drinking beers, just like, dude, I don't know if there's anything up there. Yeah. So they're basically, by saying, we all believe it, they're basically saying she's the reason for all the problems in the colony. Yeah, right. So she's convicted.

And Winthrop orders her banished, and until she's banished, to be imprisoned. And quote, I desire to know wherefore I am banished. And Winthrop replied. Yeah, where do you go? Winthrop replied, the court knows wherefore and is satisfied. They're not gonna tell her. So they're like, we know where you're going

and that's all that matters. Yeah. And until they'd send her there, so, okay. So she's in prison at a guy's house, basically. She's convicted of slandering ministers and giving a speech in court that was seditious and contempt of court. So the court's last action before adjourning for the week

was to allow Samuel Hutchinson to remain in the colony until after winter because it's a really bad winter. I do like that they, that winter to them, they're like, well, we're not dicks. It's really cold out there. I mean, I guess they didn't want to kill them, although it seems like they did want to kill them, but maybe they just didn't want to have the imperents of like, well, they probably didn't want to, they probably didn't want to kill them because they were like, look,

God is keeping an eye on our actions around here. So we got to be a little cool. And also, yeah, there's that, but also martyrs are a problem, right? Right. But you could easily kill someone and just be like, she took off this morning and she actually seemed pretty excited.

Totally. A lot of people in Boston are upset by the trial. They didn't like how it went down, including Winthrop's wife, Margaret. Many didn't try to hide their anger and wanted the church to discipline Winthrop. So now, backlash, right? They're like, that was fucking bullshit.

That was over the line. And even his wife's like, yeah, you went pretty hard at that lady. Like, that was a bit much. If you can imagine a bunch of dudes doing something that ladies don't like, a legal thing, if you can imagine that. Can't really.

But Windsor doesn't give two shits. That I can imagine. He knew the church wouldn't do anything and he's just unapologetic. He knows the church isn't gonna crack down on him. So Ann is put under house arrest in the home of a minister and when the general court recommends on November 20th it ordered all the colony's gunpowder and ammunition removed from Boston and taken to Newtown and Roxbury where they have you people, they have more control. Sure.

So now they're worried that the trial's gonna lead to violence. And then in order to 75- There's so many things that we kind of already knew then that we have completely abandoned. We are kind of the version that they were like, we gotta avoid this. We're living that one now.

It's like, well look, you can't have this big of a disagreement and unlimited gunpowder. Yeah. So it'll be bad. It's funny because it's going to be horrendous to go through. So they order 75 men in the colony to be disarmed if they do not recant these beliefs. Okay. Now, Anna has a lot of visitors at her, at the ministry. She's basically just in a house. I mean, people can come and see her. Yeah, which is kind of something.

I mean, like, I knew that you're on house arrest in someone else's home is pretty cool too. Yeah. And people just come over and go into a room with her. I'll go to Frank's. What? He's got a pool. She told people about her new revelations.

So she's having new revelations about future events, which included the destruction of the general court. So now she's like. Burn it down. Yeah, she's like, so I'm seeing the future, God's telling me that the general courts, these guys are all gonna burn in hell, they're gonna be fucking dying of fire.

And also during that time of house arrest, she gets pregnant. What? Her husband's giving her business. Okay, right. The mood in the colonies really bad. Heresy is growing. They think Vane might be plotting a return,

so they're freaked out about that. Sure. And people are just super, they're just aggressively confronting each other. Like it's, It's America. Yeah, it's America. Up until now,

a lot of people accepted the radicals because they behaved piously, right? They're behaving the same as the people who believe the different thing. They're all behaving as Christians. All these people with Cotton and Wheelwright, so Cotton and Wheelwright are sort of, Cotton has sort of stopped saying stuff.

He's just kind of gotten political and like, I'm gonna go with the flow. Wheelwright's gone, right? So now with those two guys out of the picture, all the people who were underneath, that they were saying, well these people are all being influenced by Cotton Wheelwright. Well they're still acting the same.

It's just a menace to the authorities. And they're also alienating moderates who had protected them. And they're also alienating moderates who had protected them. So the balance of opinion tips against the and people, the heretics. And churches now start admonishing and excommunicating people.

Excommunicating just means very simply, you are no longer going to be, you're dead to us. You're not in the church, you're not in our community. So this allows Cotton to say he's been abused and stalked by the heretics. So now Cotton is like, yeah man, they came after me. What a fucking little weasel. So ministers keep visiting and talking to Anne

about her new ideas, her new revelations. And then in March 1638, she has an ecclesiastical trial. Okay. The court is packed, this is the fucking thing to see. People come from all over, like people come from way far away to see this trial. I get that.

Yeah, I get that. So she's crazy defiant, again, it's a bunch of religious stuff about the soul, the spirit, blah, blah, blah, it's that kind of, I don't care, trial. But after a couple of days, Anne retracts all she'd been charged with, and she doesn't try to excuse herself.

She said she was wrong to prophesize the destruction of the court and the colony and she'd been disrespectful to the ministers. She's basically backing off of all of it. She just wants to be okay. Yeah, she's just like, I'm fucking done. Like, right. Of course, because she's been. I get it.

100%. You know, did I say that? This doesn't sound like me. Boy, I really got, I was really spinning some yarn bag there, wasn't I? That's wild. I have been drinking. No!

So much. I'm checking, I'm going to rehab. Yeah. So the court is like, oh, the assembly is like, okay, they hope for her repentance. Like everyone's like, oh, great, yeah, good. But there's still one more charge by this minister shepherd. I think I talked about him earlier.

Yeah, that was the original guy that started going back and forth with Wheelwright, the original. Yep. He said and forth with wheel right the original Yep, he said she had held these ideas before she was in prison He's like these fucking revelations about destruction of the colony She was saying that a long time ago and her thing was like look. I basically went nuts when I was in prison, so She basically said you know, that's bullshit. I wasn't saying this before. And then he's appalled that she could even speak like that and say no to him. And he said he didn't buy anything that she just repented

because she just refused to say she was doing it before. Okay. So she's not double repenting, I guess is what we would call it. Yeah. Right, it's not a full repent. I mean, she's not double repenting, I guess is what we would call it. Yeah, right. It's not a full repent. I mean, he's she's basically saying all this stuff I did when I was locked up in prison is bad. You're right. I'll cop to it. And he goes, well, cop to the police before prison.

Yeah, well, all this cop to the other stuff. And basically, they had come to sort of a good place where it might it might be resolved in a way in the sense that like it's sort of an agreement. good place where it might be resolved in a way in the sense that it's not a certain agreement. I'll say I did this shit when I was in prison and then you guys just walk away with this. But this guy's like no. Right.

So he's like, well, she's bullshitting and she needs to repent. And then she starts talking herself into a bigger hole. At one point they all believed she was lying about what she'd said about inherent graces. So she just starts talking and now she's spinning out and it's fucked. And Cotton had tried to spend the trial

complimenting her and questioning her and helping her out, trying to keep her from getting thrown out of the colony. But at this point, Cotton's like, okay, I'm done. Like, I can't, this is just gone. And Shepard's like, she needs to go. He said she was likely a damned sinner. She's not misguided, she's a notorious imposter, and he's like, ex-communicator, get her out of here.

Wilson then accuses her, he says, this chick is an instrument of the devil, she was sent here to cause division, so now it went from being like, everything okay until it's shepherds, and now everyone's piling on. Get out! He also wants ex-communication,

and then they all start piling on and agreeing, and now Cotton is finally done, and he's like, he's done with her because she refused to admit this error of which he used to believe, whatever. Right. And he's just doing this obviously for self preservation. Yeah.

Yeah, right. And you know, it's a little bit, it's a little bit, I mean, again, there are a lot of similarities, but it's a little bit like when all the people on the Trump side were doing the Dominion voting thing. And then when push came to the show, they're just like, did I say that? Yes, exactly. No, I wasn't saying that.

Isn't it what I meant? No, no, no. I know. There's a fair count. There's a fair count. So Cotton's done. He thinks she's lying and he agrees she should be excommunicated. Sure. So they sent her to excommunication. I am also shocked that we're excommunicating and not executing. I feel like in this time it was just like, you just killed people with...

I don't think so. I think that the martyr thing is a problem. So she was ordered to leave quote, as a leper. As a leper? Yeah. What do you mean? She gets like a temporary leper status? You can't just, right?

You can't just kind of like temp leper someone. I think they're saying you go and you never come back. Right, so you are treated as a leper. Treated as a leper, yeah. But you're not. You're not a leper. No, okay. That'd be crazy conviction.

That would be, I would believe in more mysticism then. So William Hutchinson knew both his wife and Winthrop would never back down, and he had made preparations for them to leave. So the whole time before the trial, he's like, we're gonna be out of here. So he starts making. So then he might settle in Rhode Island

where a group who supported the Hutchins were setting up a settlement. Okay. So this is an island in, I don't know how to say this, Nagaransett Bay? Sure. Nagaransett.

You should know here from up there. Yeah, no, Nagaransett. It would eventually be renamed Portsmouth in 1639. So Portsmouth. William goes there before her second trial, and after banishment, she leaves the Massachusetts Bay colony with 60 people in April, and they head there. So they're living there and she,

remember she's pregnant, she miscarries. And it's not a recognizable fetus. Like it's a bummer. It's just a mass basically. And word gets out about what this was and what it looked like. This is gonna be bothersome. Well, a Rhode Island doctor sent a report to Winthrop.

Winthrop was like, hey. Describing her miscarriage? I mean, Winthrop reached out to the doctor, was like, so tell me about this. What did it look like? Yeah, give me all the deets. How was it? So the doctor sends a report, quote,

"'I beheld several lumps, every one of them greatly confused without form, not much alike the swims of some fish. Oh, for fuck's sake, Jesus Christ. And then Winthrop says, Oh no, she's having fish babies. No, he says. Mermen. Give me more details. Break it down. Break it down. But she's already

gone. So what is it like? So what would now you're just kind of being a petty prick. You just try trying to like continually vindicate your side and just kind of right. Right. Right. So the doctor sends him even more details. Oh, I got notes. Oh, yeah, yeah, I didn't know we were getting into the freaky shit. Let's go. Yeah, I didn't know you were down to clown. Size, shape, texture, it's insane.

It's fucking just horrifying. Oh, good Lord. Winthrop records it in his journal. Big day today, journal. I think I found his cookbook. Winnie got the goods. Yeah. William, her husband dies in 1641.

What did it look like? Then word comes that the Portsmouth colony would be absorbed by the Massachusetts Bay colony. Okay. Not wanting to be persecuted more, Anne leaves with her seven kids. I would think that that would be they would You'd be like look dude. I left and now you're you're like, I can't live here cuz you're taking that's not okay Yeah, but that's what they're doing on purpose. They don't care right? Yeah, right

Seven kids a son-in-law in service. And they settle in New Netherlands, which was Dutch controlled, more religiously tolerant. They build a home and today that would be in the Bronx. Okay. Then Keith's war begins. You can look that up, but... I'm familiar. We talked about it.

Yeah, we've talked about it exactly but it's basically Native Americans against the Dutch right right the the local Native Americans begin attacking settlers because it's basically the Dutch's fault but now they it's just a war so they attack her home and her family is murdered in the summer of 1943. Only one of her kids survives. 1643, right, okay.

I have 19 years, sorry, 1643. Only one of her kids survives, a daughter, Susanna. And she was taken by the tribe and she lived with them for years. They think she had a son with the chief. She was eventually returned to a hostage exchange. And I mean, this might be off, but it does seem like a lot of times

when the Native Americans take people, people are like, I like it. Oh, a lot of the time, yeah, they're like, well, this is a good life. Way better. But although this sounds like a bit. Not yet. Okay, right.

Go ahead, bud. Winthrop and the other judges in Massachusetts Bay Colony are thrilled to hear she has been killed. Wait, who has been killed? Ann. Oh, Ann was killed too. Oh shit, okay. Oh, family except for Suzairn. Wow. Everybody's dead. Wow. So they're thrilled and they say,

look, this is God's vindication of what our verdict, not that your verdict made her leave and then she got killed. So finally he's telling us we're right. Took him a long time, but now that ends with brutally murdered we know Winther broke quote thus it had pleased the Lord to have compassion of his poor churches here and to discover this great Imposter an instrument of Satan Boy, it surely is a frustrating part of all of this to not be able to get confirmation. To not be able to have just even one sit-down interview

with God so that you're just like, oh, okay. Instead, we're just like, what the hell is he talking about? What does he want? Oh, Winthrop also called her an American Jezebel. Nice. Which is a reference to an evil queen in the Bible. So in 1644, Winthrop wrote a book, short story of the rise, rain, and ruin

of the Antimonians, Familius and Libertines. It was to assure Londoners that the colony was following the right path. Quote, Then God was pleased to step in with his casting voice and bring his own vote and suffrage from heaven, in causing the two formenting women, so he's talking about Anne and another woman of some kind, two formenting women in the time of the height of the opinions to produce out of their wombs as before they had out of their brains such monstrous births as no chronicle hardly ever recorded the like.

Wow. So another woman that he was like mad about. Yeah, got killed. And now he's like, no, these are the miscarriages. Oh, right. But so he's right. No, these are the miscarriages. Oh, right, but so he's, right. It's validating the... He had also, when the other woman had a miscarriage,

he had also done the same and written to the doctor and asked for explicit details. Hey, I hate to be annoying. Can I also get a readout for the other one too? Yeah, I actually already have a report here because I heard you're really into miscarriages. Yeah, big. Yeah have a report here because I heard you're really into miscarriages. Yeah, big. Yeah.

Big into them. I'm fine. You're not, it's not. I'm fine. It doesn't seem. God's talking to, yeah. This is like a receipt from God for me, so. It's not.

No, it is. God. Exactly. What's wrong with you? I'm just sick of being so God damn Exactly. What's wrong with you? I'm just sick of being so goddamn right. Fuck, man. Can you draw some stuff? In his book, he went into more detail about Anne's fetus.

Jesus Christ. Like, this is like the stuff nobody or everyone's like, yeah, dude, it's cool. We got it. She got pregnant 16 times. And one miscarriage? Yeah, well, I'm sure she had more. And he's just like, yeah dude, it's cool, we got it. She got pregnant 16 times. And one miscarriage? Yeah, well I'm sure she had more. And he's just like, boom, finally. Yeah, yeah, I mean.

Ah. She had a ton of kids. That's so obvious. So obvious what was going on. The Puritans continued to just hate Anne, but over time they lost their political and spiritual hold on the region. And in the 18th and 19th centuries centuries Anne began to be seen as a religious visionary and symbol of religious freedom,

one who stood up to religious intolerance. Author Nathaniel Hawthorne modeled this heroine of the Scholar Letter on Anne Hutchinson, and over time she came to be seen as a powerful woman who asserted her personal dignity and rights when women had no voice to do so, a statue honoring her stands today outside the house, the state house in Boston, the city she was banished from. It's also, it's strange. Well, whatever.

I mean, it is like, there obviously she is fighting, but she's also like, you know, like a religious loon herself, but okay's also like, you know, like a religious loon herself, but okay. Yeah, that's the problem with the whole thing is that these are just religious loons fighting and it's like not there's just like a slight difference between these. And if the situation was reversed, and it's not really a fight for religious freedom would be saying more like I have the right to not right.

I'm not religious at all. Adhered to, you know, your religious. And also, if this situation were reversed, she would have persecuted. Right. Yeah, right, right. Yeah. So, sources, worldhistory.org, theencyclopedia.com, Commonplace Online, the Antimonians,

Anne Hutchinson's Monstrous birth, Michael Winship, the times and trials of Anne Hutchinson, and some dates from Wikipedia. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, it is. The country is founded in such lun- like we are never able to really get far away from that. And it's really interesting right now to watch how like, like where is it Louisiana or wherever,

where now the 10 commandments are gonna be placed at like. There's gonna be a Bible, the Bible is gonna be taught in Oklahoma. Yeah, that must be where, yeah, that's where it is. Yeah, yeah, the 10 commandments of the Bible. No, it's both. Oh, it is. Oh shit.

Louisiana has the thing on the wall and then Oklahoma has the, we'll teach the Bible. And it's like, we so clearly in the foundation, like again, I mean, it is. Oh shit. Louisiana has the thing on the wall, and then Oklahoma has the will to teach the Bible. And it's like, we so clearly in the foundation, like again, I mean, it's like, it's so weird to watch this country that is so obsessed with the founding fathers who came up with the separation of church and state, that is totally.

Well, they don't believe that. That is one of the things that is totally ignored. Like we're like, they said you could bear arms whenever. It's not ignored. If you talk to Christians, they think that that's not what it is. They don't ignore it. They have come up with their own justification

for why it is decristination. It's found in Christianity. What is the separation of church and state then? It's found in Christianity. In what way? It's like, what does that mean to them? Well, they would go back and say, look at the Puritans you're talking about.

The whole thing is found in Christianity. Yes, but when the founding fathers come up with the separation of church and state. They were Christians and they like believe in Christianity and they, you know. Yeah, but they were Christians who were like, hey, keep it, you know, just chill, do it at home. Like religion's like jerking off.

Are you asking to go to hell right now? I'm actually one of the people that believes it's predetermined, so it's irrelevant. Oh shit. Well, Dave, you know, these are the sort of ones that I would say when we first started, we'd have a good laugh about and now They're sort of like oh crikey. Here we go again

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