The Downbeat - Aaron Weaver - Wolves In The Throne Room

Episode Date: August 26, 2024

My guest on the podcast this week is Aaron Weaver of Wolves In The Throne Room. An interesting and wise man - we talk about the band and their impact on the black metal scene, as well as his unorthodox utilization of technology for producing that is modern but still seems on brand for the genre. We also talk about ghosts and Lars Ulrich... obviously.

Welcome everyone. Welcome back to a new episode. I hope you're doing super good. I hope you're staying on top of things in this tumultuous. What a word that is. Tumultuous world. My guest on the Downbeat podcast this week is Aaron Weaver of Wolves in the Throne Room, responsible for one of my favorite black metal albums of all time to hunters. Wools in the throne room were kind of the people to bring together elements of more. atmospheric music, like whole songs of atmospheric music with disgusting black metal. And I'm a huge fan. He's been on the podcast before in audio, but he came back this time for video. We talk about magic. He's big into magic. We talk about love of Lars Ulrich. He lives on kind of like a commune thing. So we get into that quite a lot. It's pretty deep. Super, super interesting guy. The latest EP crypt of ancestral knowledge is amazing.

I'm a huge fan of the band and I absolutely cannot wait to see them again and I can't wait to get Aaron back on the podcast. Before we get started, I need you to know. I need you to know. We have a Patreon, patreon.com, forward slash the downbeat on it.

You get episodes early. Access to pretty much anything I do early. Remember when I released a symbol? Well, it went on Patreon early. You get access to merch early. You get everything. everything you want, the lowest tiers of power, you can get add three episodes of the podcast. The lowest tier is one pound, patron.com forward slash the downbeat.

As ever, this episode of the Downbeat podcast is brought you by those glorious people at Displate. Displate care about one thing. I mean, they care about a couple of things, right? But their main thing they care about is how disgusting your walls are and they just look rubbish. And you have no interior decorating skills. You're a bit like the guy from Beetlejuice. Remember the interior designer from Beetle Juice? I think he's in Jurassic Park as well.

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Listeners of the Downbeat Podcast can get 22% off 1 to 2 displays or 33% off 3 or more by going to Displate.com forward slash the downbeat and use the code Downbeat. It's Aaron Weaver of Wolves in the Throne Room on the Downbeat podcast. I'm going to drink my ceremonial cacao slurry. How is it? It's getting pretty thick at the bottom. Do you need more water? No, I'm good.

I enjoy the thick brown slurry. Hello. What's up Craig? That was the most anyone's wanted there. cans adjusted. I liked it. I have a very finely tuned ear. All these years of like playing drums without earplugs have left my ears extremely sensitive,

finely tuned, and perfectly calibrated. Do you not use earplugs like? No, I definitely do. I was going to say, fuck me. But I've played drums for, oh, I don't know, starting at 16, I'm 46, so 30 years. And I'd say the first half, I did not wear air plugs. And I had those cheap Sabian,

pro high hats. Oh, I know. I keep my hats really fucking high, so right at ear level. And I don't know. I'm surprised I can hear as well as I can. But I also think that hearing loss is, there's a physical thing that's occurring with like,

whatever the structure is inside the ear. But I think it's also a psychological thing. And hearing loss can be mitigated with just rerouting your brain a certain way or like listening through different organs other than your ears. Wow. How have you come across that? Well, as a musician, maybe you've noticed you can, like, feel music in different places in your body.

Yeah. You can, like, hear it with your ears and think about it with your brain, but you can feel it in your guts. You can feel it in your balls, like wherever. Yeah. You can feel it in your feet. The frequency, there's a weird, we're straight in on real podcast talk here. Frequencies. Yeah, frequencies.

It's weird. There's a weird thing about it. It is. Yeah, and I think there's, like, you know, the frequency you can quantify, and then there's, like, a bunch of other stuff that's going on that you can tune into. That's one thing I learned as a recording engineer because I played drums in the band, but have also in recent years stepped into the recording and engineering and producing role along with Nathan and Cody, but I kind of take the lead, especially in the tech end. And one thing I learned from Randall Dunn, who recorded 200s,

Black Cascade, Celestrian, Celestite, and Thrice Wolven, was to not listen with your ears, but listen with your chest. Like you literally move the organ of apprehension, of listening to a different place in your body. Can you do that quietly? To me, that sounds like that has to be something that's done loud. I can do it quietly, for sure.

That's interesting, because you were actually like spun out by the levels being different in your ears. And I was like, this is really hurting this, man. I know. That's kind of cool, though. Sensitive flour. No, but it's like, it wasn't, I'm not saying that a bad way, it was like, I was like, oh, this guy is, this guy knows what he wants.

Yeah, definitely. I mean, like as a recording, when you're doing recording it, like literally is a million one dB moves, like tiny little moves, but make 10,000 of those moves and that's what makes it sound right or feel right. Are you mixing as well? In the studio? Yeah. Yeah, mixing and on the last EP mastering. You mixed and mastered? Yeah. Wow, good for you.

Sounds great. Thank you. Yeah, I have no idea. I just watched a few YouTube videos and just fucked with it. Yeah. That's me. Dude, YouTube. How crazy is that?

Yeah. And we make our own videos too now. Like all of the music videos we've made, we just watched YouTube, bought the cameras and figured it out. Yeah. Same. All of this was just, how do I do this? And then you find someone with the vibe or one of the vibes.

Exactly. One of the vibes that you want to, you know, not copy. but like being on the same wavelength. And then you just look at what they do. You find your guy, the YouTube guy. There's a theory of evolution that involves YouTube. I can't remember what it's called. But it's like the human race is evolving at such a higher rate since YouTube was invented.

Because like if you think of drummers, dramas when we were growing up were like good. But now there's like 10-year-olds who are so much better than the best. drummer in the world in like 95 or whatever. Because of YouTube. I 100% believe that. You see it. I'm kind of like excited where we can go.

I am too. I mean, I'm like ultimately a very optimistic person. And I sort of intentionally try to look at things through not rose-colored glasses or to be a polyana, but to vision like a good outcomes. Like just vision things working out in a good way. Whether that's just in my personal life or in the world,

it certainly can't hurt. and so one could easily have like very dark and dystopian views about what technology does to our mind to culture to the world but i would rather vision a good outcome on the good bit yeah because there is some bad bits there's a lot of bad bit there's some demons out there some demons and sorcerers are you on ticto i mean i've i downloaded tic talk like a few months ago just to put on my phone just to like see what it was yeah i'm just not there man. No. I'm not there. And I put in hashtag black metal. Yeah. It just became very clear to me that this genre of music does not work on that medium. Yeah. It was just an endless scroll of like,

did you know that there's this crazy guy in Norway named Varg that killed this guy and it's fucking crazy? So the only thing that kind of makes it through this medium of the TikTok screen is the most like sensationalistic and tabloid surface level crust of something. Maybe in other genres, of music or other areas of life and culture, it can be useful, but I don't know. It doesn't seem to work for like underground, psychedelic, wild music. It barely works for even the podcast. It's only the sensationalized stuff that gets picked up because you're far more likely to leave a comment if you disagree with something.

So the more open, it's, that is my beef. technology the more open you leave a conversation or deliberately like goading an argument out of people or they put the clickbait bit first put a statement that maybe you don't even believe but then you 30 seconds in you you tell everyone you don't believe that everyone's already left the comment just kind of poisonous it is yeah I mean these are just pitfalls to be avoided let's just use it to make it cool blackmail well I want to know more about your mixing mastering like did you have a guy on YouTube? Have you got a guy in your head that is like, that's the videos I watched? No. No, for like mixing, absolutely not.

No. What about even just knowing what button to tell you? No, I do it entirely by color. So I just work, we have kind of a hybrid studio, like our older records were recorded on two inch tape and mixed on a console live in this very old school way. But since maybe celestial lineage, We'll happily do overdubs and pro tools and do a little bits of editing. And I record an Ableton nowadays, which is a really powerful songwriting tool. Works good for mixing as well. It's not, of course, oriented towards drums and guitars and this sort of thing, but it works for me. So no, I don't get too technical with it.

Like, I just have a pretty limited supply of plugins and then some really nice outboard gear and analog gear and literally just turn the knobs intuitively until the music turns the right color. Sometimes having less is super beneficial for that. I can't believe you mix in Ableton. Yeah, I don't think anyone does. I don't think anyone mixes in Ableton. Like from what record on are we talking mixed on Ableton? Primordial Arcana was the first one,

because that was the first record we did just by ourselves. And yeah, we wrote it in Ableton because I do electronic music production and do my own sort of weird electronic stuff on the side as kind of my experimental proving ground for ideas that I can bring into wolves. And Ableton is great software for that. And so we did our demoing in Ableton

and then always kind of planned on switching to Pro Tools and just never did it. Just because you knew your way around it. You knew what you're working with. That's really cool. And actually, now that I think about it, because we were like, all right, when we did Primordial Orcanna,

we were like, well, we can definitely engineer this ourselves and record everything, but there's no way we can fucking mix it. Because that's just, we just can't do it. That's just going to be too hard and we won't be able to do, we won't have it sound the way we want it to sound. So I rendered all the stems and sent him to like a very highly regarded, well-known metal mixer. And he messed with it for a really long time and got it back.

And when I heard it, like my heart was broken. Like literally, I remember the moment, like my jaw just dropped to the ground. And I stepped outside in a daze. And it was a summer day kind of like this. And I just wandered around in the woods like, what the fuck? Our record is ruined. Like, what are we going to do? Because all of the feeling in it.

The soul. The soul was like removed and replaced with something else that was utterly alien to me. And so the three of us decided, like, we just have to, we have to do this ourselves. It's got to figure it out. How long did it take to go from months? Yeah, not mixing to. Because I never mixed anything before, apart from like, you know, some weird noises or like a techno track. Yeah, yeah.

I did 100 mixes. of the first track on primordial arcana. 100. Yeah. Over 100. And just kept on doing it until I couldn't make it any better. And then it got to a place

that felt good and looked good in my mind's eye. And then that was the template going forward. What's that song? Seven minutes long or something? Yeah, something like that. Seven times 100. So.

Well, I was just like, you know, it's one of those moments when you like level up in terms of your craft. Yeah. And I would just sleep in the studio. I just like work and then fall asleep on the couch, listening to the mix, and then like wake up, like, what the fuck? And then this work on it all day and did that for, you know, weeks and weeks.

And then as you got, as you did another record and then an EP that you got, it got quicker, or are you still doing 100? Well, there is primordial arcana and then the EP. So it's just been these two, right? Yeah. Yeah. Primordial Arcana. And then this EP is kind of like the summation. It's like the EP that accompanies primordial arcana.

That's what I was going to get into. Yeah. Why an EP? We're just a big fan because we're from the 90s and we're just a big fan of EP's. Album EP, album EP, vibe, yeah. Yeah, like fucking jar of flies, you know? Yeah, yeah. It like goes with facelift.

You know, making a record can be just such an epic undertaking, personally, spiritually as a craftsperson. Like, it felt like there's still work to be done. Yeah. Like in that milieu, in the universe and the world of that record, there was still kind of unfinished business. And so the EP is an opportunity

to kind of like close the magic circle. So it's just done. It's fucking in the can. And the path is open for the next, whatever that is. What is the next? We're on tour right now, Craig. Yeah, I know.

I know this. And so we're like, you know, you're still in the zone. We're in the live band zone. thinking about light shows and tempos and all this kind of stuff. Weird shit on stage. Weird shit on stage. Yeah.

And just like getting the atmosphere right. But as soon as we get home, we've got months blocked out just for writing for another record. Do you feel like this tour will close the chapter of the EP and the album? 100%. Are you one of those people? Because I definitely am where I need to put 100% of my fiber into whatever it is. is. Yeah.

And then when it's done, exactly the same, I'm like, okay, next thing. And then I sometimes don't even, even when it's like, if we're learning, if I'm doing a new album or whatever, I won't even practice the old songs until I have to play them live again because it feels like a backwards step. If I'm like, oh, I better just brush up on this song. And it just takes me back to where my brain was when I was writing that. And that's not, not good for progress. Yeah, that's true.

Yeah, we are just laser focused on whatever we're doing. the moment. And it's out of necessity because it's such a big project. Like the live show is pretty epic and scale for a, you know, little punk band like ourselves. And we do, we kind of do it all. Like we guide the whole thing and create the creative vision and hold the space with our crew, of course. And it requires just complete focus and commitment. When you, when you do a tour, do you find it hard with such a vast back catalog of songs that are really like? Yeah. Find it hard to pick a set list?

It's a challenge. How long is the set? It's like 70 minutes. And any more than that is like too much. Yeah. I feel the same. Yeah. I think it's important to like leave the audience like not like completely destroyed.

Like there's still like a little bit left. At least Wolves has this airborne flow throughout like yeah. I feel like when we when we do a tour like we're a fucking metal core band. In my head, I'm like, no one wants that for 60 minutes. They don't. Not even like 70. No, we did 70 on the last headline. And the whole time it's like, no one wants this.

So you can't expect people to go nuts for 70 minutes. But to your point, making a set list is a real challenge. And as you mentioned, we do want to ebb and flow. Like we want the correct amount of tension and space and a narrative to be woven. It's the same way as sequencing a record or writing a record. because as you probably have noticed, like the records really do go on a journey and are meant to be listened to from beginning to end.

And a live performance is just the same. And it's always a mystery as to what songs are going to work. Like we always think we're like, yeah, the set list is going to be cool. And we play a song and we're like, man, that song doesn't have any chi to it. It's got no energy. Like it's just not right.

After playing it live, you would notice that or practice. Yeah, rehearsal. Yeah. Yeah, we can tell in rehearsal if a song which should intellectually work really, really good, just doesn't have the magic, you know. Are you talking about a new song

or like even revisiting an old song in that set list? Both. Yeah. Like a song that worked last time in the same spot does all of a sudden, it feels like it's been rung dry. Yeah. Like all of the, I don't know, the magic's been wrung out of it. Or at least it's like taking a nap.

Good for you for not just putting it in anyway, though. How could we, though? You say that because you're a very spiritual, you know, you're a real magician. It's not even that. it's like, if it's not fun, it's like fundamentally it comes down to like, is this fun to do?

But I mean, if the crowd still want it, you're picking your vibe over there. Yes. Which is why I'm saying good for you. Because most people, most people just totally wouldn't do that. Well, cool.

Thanks. I'll take that as a compliment. No, it was definitely a compliment. We're off on the wrong foot here. I think if you pick one song from every record, it's going to be over 70 minutes, surely.

Yes. Yes. So do you ever get people that are like, you didn't play X song from whatever? And then also touring a new album, You obviously have to promote that. You must have two songs from the EP on this. We're playing the first two metal tracks off the EP,

which are super fun to play. And I wasn't sure how they translate live, but they're like kind of my favorite songs to play. I realized that Cody, like, somehow turned Wolves in the Throne Room into, like, early Catatonia, like to some, like, fucking mid-tempo beats and like some, like, low, heavy goth vocals.

They're really good. But we really do prioritize, I guess it's a balance because we do very much prioritize the fans' experience. Like we always think about man people really are going to want to hear stuff off the record that they got

into the one that turned them on to the band. And we just try to strike the balance. The set we're playing tonight is the first time is it going to be a different set that we've been playing on tour because we're bringing in a few songs

that will play at Fortress Fest tomorrow for the 200 set where we're playing 200s in its entirety. I'm really, Oh, wait. So that means today you're bringing in some more two hunters in preparation for that. Yeah. Yes.

Yeah. I'm stoked on that. Me too. So on Two Hunters, there's, I can't remember her name. The singer. Yeah. Jessica Kinney. Jessica Kinney.

Have I seen you play a song that had her on it, but without her on it? Yeah, a bunch. Yeah. Yeah. Because she's on Celestial lineage as well. Yes. So we've just had to like. Great intro.

Yeah. It's one of my favorite intros of all time, by the way. I've considered same. singing it, but it's a little bit out of my range. But for years, we've toured without her, and we just make it work, and it works. We are playing cleansing tonight,

and that's been in the set, and Galen is singing her part. Oh, wow. Yeah, like some parts, like, work to transpose to the male voice, and it feels authentic and true and good. And some of the other stuff, it just doesn't work.

We're like, it needs to be sung. If not by her, then by another soprano. Oh, wow. So I get to hear cleansing tonight. With Gayling's lead vocal, it's like a, he's nailing it. That's fucking cool. I'm stoked on that.

If you don't know walls in the throne room, my personal, again, like you said, it's the, the album that got you into the band is always the one that you tell people. But like,

as a piece of music, I always say to people who are like, they don't know where to start with blackmail. Yeah. Two hunters' walls in the throne room is my go. Cool. Thank you. I don't go.

mayhem. I don't go. I don't want to, I don't, for me, I'm like, Balls in the Throne Room is so, so musical compared to like,

you know, when it was just, who can be the most evil. Like, don't get me wrong. Like, I love some mayhem songs. Love emperor.

Like, I love emperor. I had Ishaan in that chair. I don't know if it'll be out by now. I've just, that's a, it's a spoiler if he hasn't. Big brain.

Big brain on him. Definitely. But two hunters is like, gentle song. crippling black metal song gentle song half and half song yeah totally it is

and I just love it it's my sleep record nice thank you and I wake up at the same it's the weirdest thing I wake up at the same point every time it's almost like

even my it's like my brain wants me to wake up and hear it is to hear just the end when you can hear what's the lyric let me see if I can get the lyric and be a true

I will lay down my The bones amongst the rocks and roots. Nailed it. But there's another line after it. You don't need to remember it. I remember it. I thought I could remember it.

But I wake up at that point every time. And it's like a little emotional bath for the brain. And then I go back to sleep. It's crazy. In my bunk, it's almost every night. Wow. That's amazing. I mean, I'm not going to lie.

It's a good record. Like, it's one of those moments when just everything came together, perfectly. Like we'd been working really hard as like a DIY band, just like working all those songs out in basements and squats and just nasty punk houses. And it was our first time working with Randall who brought a different perspective. He was like, why don't you guys try this ancient, crusty, broken core synthesizer? Or Jessica should sing on the song, my friend who, you know, would bring something fresh to it. He brought it in a lot of interesting session musicians that all contributed to the sound. And it was just a very interesting time personally

for all of us. Like I remember like where I was in my mind at the time. It was like a pivotal moment in my life in general. There's a lot of things were changing in the way I perceived the world. And that's like woven into the music. So I feel really grateful for that record because that's where we really found our sound and like found our voice. And it's possible to kind of carry that forward and not every artist or musician or band has that like this moment where like lightning is captured in a bottle yeah if treated with respect that can guide you for the rest of your time as an artist and it has like because the vibe from that record you have brought into later records yeah which is interesting because obviously randall wasn't involved and now it just lives in you

which is really cool like the synths on the ep are amazing or what like whatever you're using I don't know if it's real. It's a lot of stuff. Is Ableton? No. The secret weapon on the EP and primordial arcana is Nathan is a collector of 90s romplers. Oh, real. So, like, the strings are a Roland JV. 1080.

And he's got, like, all of, like, the rare expansion cards, like the symphonic expansion cards. Yeah. I mean, I've got a few VST kind of, like, strings and stuff that I'll use. But 90% of what you hear is 90s romplers or just, like, analog. synths. A lot of samples as well. Like I put a lot of stuff into like old Akai samplers and then just play that in the keyboard. And then would you...

So I don't know how that stuff even gets recorded. So if you're recording from a Roland, is it going out of a speaker and then miced up? Or is it goes straight in? Yeah, it's just like if you have a synth, there's like a stereo output, just a cable and you just plug that into your preamp, just the way you would have a

microphone. Same thing. I didn't. It's just a signal. I literally had no idea. I have no idea how that shit works. Because Every time I've, I don't know, I've tried to mess around with synth stuff. And every time it just sounds too, because it's so polished, like VST I'm talking. Yeah. Because it's so polished. The key switches or whatever, like, anytime I'm like, I'll change note, it's such a dramatic change from one note to the other one because it's not a human being moving, even moving its fingers, because I've just put it in as this. And I just gave up. Yeah. Yeah, it's an art to it. It's an art to make it sound like different because a lot of people are using the same stuff. There's only so many synthesizer plugins. And a lot of them are emulating only a certain amount of like vintage synths. And so we've got some tricks to make it sound like not other band. And it works. It absolutely works. While we're on the subject, I know we covered it a little bit in the last podcast, but this is essentially as a brand new. podcast really because we've got the whole viewership now if you if you where the where's that my camera

that's your camera right there um owl lodge owl lodge is the studio yeah uk accent saying owl is so crazy ow ow ow ow lodge is it yeah go on in uh that's the studio talk to me about that because we did talk about it a little bit on the last pod well we're just obsessive control freaks you know and we always want to bring it more and more in-house like anything like whether it's like management stuff like management stuff like the business side like who do you go on tour with like who's whatever just like buying the plane tickets like we want to do all that stuff because we're so particular about like minutia that other people just would as wouldn't know they just wouldn't be able to get it right so we want the vibe to be just fucking right i like a 2 p.m. flight out of

c tech book in flights no one gives a fuck as much as you i mean anything but yeah they're not going to be there at 4 a.m you know loading in literally 30 so cases someone did this for me yesterday Someone else booked my flight yesterday. It was 6 a.m. And then at the fucking layover, that other flight got canceled. I'm the same. 1.45 is my wife from Glasgow? Give me that.

There's no stress the night before. Anyway, we're not talking about planes. Recording studio. Yes. Maybe I mentioned this in the last podcast. The genesis of the recording studio came out of a crisis. We were going to record celestial lineage. We did the basic tracks with Randall at, I think, a vast in Seattle,

which is like a sound garden studio. So really beautiful API console and two-inch tape and all the good stuff. And then our process back then was to record the drums and basic guitars live in a nice studio and then do overdubs at Randall's place, which is a home studio kind of vibe. We went on tour and then we got home and it was time to do overdubs. So we call Randall and say, hey, Randall, we're coming up to Seattle tomorrow. Everything's cool. We're going to do our hundred tracks of fuzzy guitar overdubs and the trolls and the orcs will come and bang on things.

and no response and days and days go by. And finally he calls and he's like, he had like a huge crisis in his personal life with his partner who he's partnered with in the studio and he was basically homeless and didn't have a studio. And we were like, well, fuck, we have to finish this record. And so we just bought a few pieces of gear

and he came down and moved into Nathan's guest room. And we just made the record there. And it was just at the time, just like a bare bones, dry-walled white walled, shop with, I think we bought an Apollo, like the rack mount Apollo. Yeah. And just a handful of mics and just like did it. Drums and everything.

No, no drum. So drums and guitars were already done in, yeah, they were in doing night. This was the I would dumps. I'm with you. Yeah, record on the tape and dumped into Pro Tools. And again, it's like, I kind of love that. Like I, it's just like that adversity and like suffering that he was going. through and I remember I was going through a lot of stuff in my personal life at the time that's like woven

into the music and if as an artist you can just like let that in like let that suffering in and let it blossom as art I really do think that that can be shared with people I think it can like that's what art does it helps you you know like as long as Bob Rock isn't producing even the black album no the black album's amazing it's amazing in my head I'm thinking of how much shit all of Metallica was going through and then St. Anger came out. That's why I was thinking of. Yeah. I mean, I'm not a fan of St. Anger, but I do love the movie. The movie is one of my favorite movies of all time. That's what, like, in my head, and actually the song, St. Anger, like, I like the song, St. Anger. It's so raw. The rest of the record, I can, I can live without,

but there was so much going on in their personal lives there. There was a good record there. Yeah. I just feel like they needed someone that wasn't a yes man to go, here you go. you go. Or to just do it themselves. They should have done animals in the throne room. They should have. But whatever. It would have sounded better. Yeah, that record sounds crazy. It's insane. There's some cocaine decisions. Oh, definitely. So anyway, we just had to make a studio. We were like in a really tough situation. We had to, and then we realized, oh, this is what we want. Like, we want to have this control. We want to be able to take time to work stuff out instead of being in the pressure cooker where we have like three days to do everything. and so for every record after that for Celestite and thrice woven and primordial arcana,

we would do a months of construction because I'm a good carpenter and builder and Nathan and Cotier can contribute a lot as well and we just would do construction work. Just tool belts, saws, paint, sheetrock. What kind of stuff? Just making the space really atmospheric and beautiful. Like we cut down some cedar trees in the backyard because Nathan lives right up against a big cedar forest and had them milled up and used all that wood to make all of the acoustic paneling like the diffusion panels just made it like really functional just built like you know we need a shelf right here where we keep like the

power adapter for this thing just like built all that shit so it's like a fucking submarine or something it's or a spaceship to set up just to make wolves in the throne room records and it must be something about putting that much of yourself into that like even just the shells and stuff yeah must be like a like an experience just being there. Yeah, I think so. And like it's for me. Like I love it. I said love being in there.

It's like I think with anything you make with your hands, like you put your love and intention into it and just know like, oh, when I'm using this desk, I'm going to be making music. It's like the thing that I love and I'm so blessed to be able to do for a living and just to like think about that. Like when I'm sanding the desk to like think about that, what it's going to be used for and just put good feeling into it. That's real magic.

It is. That's all magic is. Like, it's not anything mysterious or spooky. It's just that, I think. Just putting your intention into your work. So you have an analog desk? No. No, that was one of Randall's great pieces of advice.

I was very stuck on the idea of tape and a big old format analog console. And I bought one. I bought like a, it was an old Harrison console, like the kind that Thriller was mixed on. And he used to blown to Universal Studios. It was like a sidecar. They'd roll in to do extra mixing.

They mixed a lot of cool, like, movie sound on it. And it was just a nightmare. It was like, crackling and causing trouble. And, you know, faders go in and out. And he was like, dude, sell that fucking thing. Get, like, the best possible AD converters. Get the best possible preamps. And just accept that you live in the modern world.

Like you're not making a record in the 80s or the 90s and just make art with what works now. And that was, like, the best advice. Like, I bought these Burrell. the Burrell Mothership, it's like a rack-mount modular system of AD converters. And it's just the best. And like, I never think about it. Because I'm the kind of person, if I know something could be better, like, I obsess about it.

And with that, I bought it 10 years ago, and I'm just like, I'm done. Like, I'm never going to think about converters again as long as I live. I bought, like, the best preamps. And I'm like, I'm never going to think about that again. That is plug my shit in and it works. How many preempts have you got? We can do 16 channels. Yeah, perfect.

Absolutely perfect. We did drums. We did the drums for Primordial Arcana we did there. The drums on that record sound incredible. Thanks. I remember, I think I hit you up when it came up and I was like, woo,

I think I asked you. I was like, who mixed it? And you were like, that was me. And I was like, fuck yeah, let's go.

Yeah, thanks. You know what's funny though? Even though, like, you know, you were saying, except that you live in the modern world or whatever. And they'll be,

they'll, I'm sure there's elitists somewhere that don't play an instrument that never made a piece of music in their life that think like black metal has to be like, disgusting or whatever. But it's like back in when in the early 90s, a lot of them were still recording that on very expensive stuff. It was just like, you know, not miced up well.

They wanted it to sound good. They wanted it to sound like a super high production heavy metal record, but they didn't have the wherewithal or the resources. Like I think the Mayhem record, the, I forget which one, but I was just talking to someone in Norway about this, the fellow that recorded the recent Dark Throne records. He was spilling the T. Oh, really? And he's like, yeah, they wanted to sound like...

Metallica. Or some like Judas Priest's record. But they just had some like weird reggae guy, like mixing it who, like, didn't know the first fucking thing about a guitar. Like when someone else does your sound at like a festival. Exactly. Exactly. And I've had, like, in years past before we tour with our own dude, have had like the reggae guy or like the guy who's still like coming down from the happy hardcore party in a track suit, like mixing our record. And that's what in retrospect, the Mayhem record sounds like.

Yeah. There's no scoop on the kick drum. Just give me, oh, one, won, won't. Give me every single frequency. Yeah. It's raw. But what's funny is like the, you know, you using Ableton is actually weirdly incredibly black metal. Because no one does it.

It's, and respectfully, because you're doing a great job, it's fucking insane. It's caused problems. Really? because primordial arcana, I was vexed with like some very subtle phasing things. On the drums. I have a trick to deal with the drums, but it was on guitars.

Because we really layer our guitars. Whatever the coding is in Ableton just isn't perfectly tuned towards like rock and roll guitars. And there was a few times when this like phasing stuff would happen and I spent like weeks tracking all those things down.

Well, and it was printed into the songs or it was just while you were listening back and bouncing? It was a ghost that would come and go. Yeah, just like something in the code was like, I don't really care about that level of accuracy.

Yeah. But for guitars, it mattered. Yeah, that's crazy. I've literally never heard of anyone doing it. Yeah, I've considered switching back to Pro Tools,

but I'm so fast and able to know. Yeah. And I'll just let go of so many, like, ideas about how things need to be in music and life, wherever, like it has to be this way. I don't know.

I just, a lot of those things have just dissolved with time. And the thing that is important just getting the feeling out, like getting the art out, and whatever the sharpest, most effective tool is, I will use that tool.

Yeah. And actually having less at your disposal once the idea is out is better for the art overall because the amount of times, if you, if like back in the day when I've done stuff

and I've downloaded, like plug-in pack fucking waves, 500 plugins, and then you get some out, track it and like, oh, this sounds good. It's like,

wonder if I put this on it. Yeah. Wonder if I put this on it. I think that's better. And then you go back to the other one, no, 100 mixes later. That's the problem with, and like mixing, you just can't do it with your mind. You can't be like, does this sound good? Let me think about whether it sounds good or not.

That's just the road to chaos. Do you have anyone you bounce the mixes off? Yeah, Nathan and Cody. Anyone outside of the circle? No. No, like producer friend that you just go. No. Nice.

No. Yeah, like that's why we can do it ourselves and can do a lot of the stuff that we do ourselves because we all have different ears and different perspectives and come at the art from like oftentimes polar opposites. And at the same time, we trust each other that it's not just like an ego thing. Like, hey, that guitar doesn't sound good.

That person is saying that because they genuinely feel that for the music, for the record. And so because there's three of us, we can self-produce without getting in a spiral of mixing forever or never accomplishing anything. It's like the Chinese democracy thing. Like you just leave Axel by himself with Yes Men. It takes, you know, 10 years to make a record.

Like, we know when to cut it off. Like, we'll mix it 100 times. But when it comes to the 100th mix and it's good, we'll know it's good. And then we'll stop. It's interesting. Like, I don't think my band, respectfully, including myself, could work without a producer.

Like, it's cool that you, obviously, not that we don't respect each other, but like, I feel like we would just continue to go on and on and on and on and on without a producer or we will have two ideas. Like, have you got someone that makes the call if two of you are arguing, just the other one make the call? Because we vote. We need the producer.

Yeah. So it is. You've got the third. Yes. Perfect. If it was just me and Nathan, yes, we would argue and probably like come to blows more than we do. Real fisty cuffs. No.

I mean, we haven't like fought physically since we were kids probably. It's been a while. Yeah. But yeah, having three, I mean, you can vote. Yeah. And then just go with the vote. Yes, we've got four. That's rough for a vote.

Yeah, that's tough. Then you can't just get a tiebreaker. That's why we need the producer. And then the cool thing about that is, is we work with the same, Will Putney, we work with the same producer the entire time. We love him and trust everything he does.

So if I have an idea and he goes, no, I just go, okay. You know, it's funny. Nathan and I were talking right before this tour, thinking about the next record. And he was like, you know what? I think the next record we should work with someone,

just for the basic tracks. We should work with Steve L. I was like, what, really? Okay. Yeah, I can see that. I would have loved it, but yeah, you're a bit late. Yeah, he just passed away like two days after. There were some records that I love,

and I had no idea that he produced until I saw people posting. There was like a thing going on Twitter. It was just like RIP, Steve Albini, and they posted their four albums. And I was like, I didn't know he did the mono albums. You know that band? I fucking love that band. Didn't know he did those records.

I listened to them all the time. Well, he had that workman-like approach. like he's not a producer, like a recordist or something. Yeah. Some like special word for it with the jumps. Down to the boiler suit, yeah. Yeah, like I'm just a mechanic. Like all I'm doing is just doing this very technical thing.

I think that's a little bit of like bullshit. Really? I think he's also like an artist and like working magic in this very. Oh, respectful bullshit. You don't think it's a bit. No, no, no. I think it's just like his way of working. But I mean, he's definitely an artist and definitely a visionary.

Yeah, definitely. And it creates the space. Yeah, exactly what we were talking about. Like he literally created the studio where the stuff could occur and it's like holding the space where bands can be at their best. That's not just being a mechanic. Yeah, I read an interview, like a posthumous interview obviously, but it was like where he'd said at some point in his career, if he knew he liked a band and they came to record, if there was a song that he didn't get, he would, he made the decision to stop being the guy that was like, what if you try to. this and then put his own ideas into it and just say, I don't get this. If you guys get it, cool, let's carry on. That's probably why some of the weirdest moments in music came out

on those records. Those neurosis records he did. Yeah, neurosis. So good. Yeah. Have we talked about neurosis before? I don't think so. I'm a big fan. Me too. Yeah, that was the band that like probably opened me up the most to the way that I see music now and what music is or what it is for me, the way I approach it was, I credit neurosis for that. Nathan and I used to work at the all ages space in Olympia. He would have been 14. I would have been 16.

It was like the DIY space, the Capitol Theater backstage, which is where like, there was like tons of metal on punk shows, but it was also where like Riot Girl came from, like the first like Ratmobile show and all these sort of things. So it was a very eclectic scene.

And there was a guy that worked there, Jeff Bartone. He was like the classic punk sound guy, like a surbic, old, bitter. drunken man. Nice. But he was a mentor when I look back.

What year is this? Sorry. This would have been, well, this was on the through silver and blood tour. I want to say 96. And neurosis came through.

And we would help with load in and help kind of set things up. And I just remember so clearly them arriving in their like beat the shit van. And like all these dudes, shaved heads, beards, crazy tattoos like load in.

And they're just like on fire. Like they were probably on LSD. Like they were definitely doing acid like regularly on that. tour and they all just come in and start doing push-ups and just like crazy like masculine like exercises and then um it was just mind-blowing like what the fuck is this we'd never seen anything like it like we'd seen a lot of like different punk stuff and metal stuff um but they were doing something that was different it was like yeah it's punk and it's metal but it's also something

else yeah it has this like mythical quality or magical it was like shimmering with magic or with a vibe that was unlike anything else that I had seen. And with the visuals and the, you know, did they have the projectionist guy then? I don't know when he started. I think I saw his last show. It was like Hellfest, 2006. It was unbelievable.

Before Josh, what's his name? Josh Graham. Yeah. Yeah. It was like the original analog projection. So cool. It was a trip. And yeah, that really opened me up to like, oh, like, there's music and then there's this other level to it that's happening kind of like beyond what I can perceive.

And I guess that's where I've been like trying to get for the last 30 years. I mean, I think we've got it because I love neurosis and I love your band. And that's, I've never made the connection. I never listen to one of your songs and think, oh, neurosis influence. But like, like, you know, like you listen to ISIS and go, that. neurosis, not the militant extremist group. No. The excellent band, R-IP. Yeah, yeah, they had a tough, that was a bad stroke of luck, man. But also, it seems like they were like, ending anyway. I think they did a one-off and they called themselves Celestial, which was obviously the,

like, the first record, but like, I wish that band would come back. The neurosis thing is sad as well, let's not talk about that. No, I won't mention it. Oh, you know, yeah, that's a bummer. I'd like to see he can't he can't fucking do it without Scott Kelly. No, no way. It sucks. No. That would be so weird. It would be cool. I don't see what Steve-on-Till does next. Well, his heart

I mean, I was just checking out his new Harvest Man record. Well, I haven't checked out. That's really cool. Cool. I just heard a clip on my phone, but it was one of the first things I've heard recently like, oh, I'm going to buy that and listen to it. We're playing, when we get home, we have a few weeks off and then we're playing the Cascadian

Midsummer Festival, which like the local black metal hippie gathering south of olympia in the woods and steve's going to be there and so i'm hoping that he can sing the lyrics for old ones which is on thrice woven wow yeah yeah that was like a huge honor to like have him do the lyrics on that song um yeah he's like actually like an elder you know yeah like he's like actually like you know a generation older and you can like look up to him as just a fucking minch. Do you think you would get him to like feature feature, like on a record? We did on thrice woven.

On thrice woven. Yeah. The old ones are with us. Oh my God. Yeah. You know what? This happened before with Colt of Lunar as well. And I was like, you got a real good Mark Lanigan impression.

And Johannes was just like, that's him. Yeah. And I was like, oh, I don't know, because in my head, these people are untouchable. Like, and no disrespect to either band. just like fuck that's so cool yeah i always think it's someone just doing a real good no that was steve you like the if you know after the podcast if you want you you can listen to the track with this new found knowledge the first part where he kind of does his invocation he says him on his iPhone as i understand that he has some like magic stone circle outside in his property in idaho and he

has recorded it on his iPhone and then in his studio did the acoustic guitar and the lyrics in the middle part of the song. Did this beautiful invocation prayer thing. It's amazing. Yeah, so I'm really hoping he can do it with this live at the show. Yeah. I think he will. He's a cool guy.

Yeah, he must. Surely. Come on, Steve. He's a badass, man. I just want to just like speak for him. He just like runs shit like a boss, you know, in this running a label, like, you know, kind of running the business side of neurosis. Like, he's the one figuring shit out.

Like, they arrive at a hotel. Like, he's the one, like, check. in or like making sure that everything's going to work properly. And he's got a full-time job. He's a school teacher. Is he? I didn't know that. Imagine Steve von Tills,

you're like English teachers. Mr. von Till. I think he teaches like fourth or fifth grade. In my head, I imagine him doing it really slowly with like a gruff voice and maybe some light doom in the background. I don't know.

I don't think anyone knows at his school. Wow. I didn't, I didn't fucking know that. Yeah. Have you just docks him? He's a cool guy. You touched on touring a little bit there.

want to talk about touring um do you find there's a difference for you guys in the u.s versus the uk in terms of crowds no none whatsoever no it's interesting feels the same the crowd last night in london like just felt so good to me it was like i looked out and i saw like my people like some like old goths and then some just like young just freak kids like clearly just on a fucking trip yeah there were people who were obviously on psychedelics nice there was couples making out because that's when we know it's a good show when there's people who are just like fucking snogging each other. Snogging. Hey. Fuck yeah. Men crying. What was the venue?

Men crying. Bald men crying. Yep. Like patch wearing black metal just like hardcore black metal people. Yeah, I just love that so much. And it's the same sort of audience in the states. Maybe they blackmail is exclusive for that because I like, we got real different crowds in both places. Okay. And actually Europe cares more. Okay. But I never thought, I thought for most people, most people have a similar thing where they're just like, yeah, it's a bit different. It feels the same.

And part of it is that like we really, kind of like neurosis, we roll in and we just fucking take over. Like, we're just like, move that, move that, do this, bring in our crazy smoke machines. Yeah. What stage stuff you got on this one? You've always got some weird shit on stage. We have some weird shit. Respectfully weird.

Cody's like a real good plant wizard. Like he's really tuned into plants. the cool way, like trees and flowers and things. And so he's in charge of making sure that the microphone stands are always adorned with certain plants that he finds in various gas stations and parking lots along the way. Is that where they come from? Wherever. You don't fly them in? No, no. What about bones? You've had some bones before. You've had bones. Are you flying the bones in, or do you go and pick them up from the butchers? There's issues with customs with bones. Whattang got completely fucked on that. I know, yeah, we don't, we can't fuck with bones for that reason.

will not let us bring our bones because of woke we can't get bones for real the woke agenda has taken the bones from us have taken our bones yeah we always do something insane like one of our first tours in Europe we demanded our tour manager pull over like this very dry German tour manager pull over and like help us find a stump so he just went to a forest and found this massive fucking stump dog it out yeah yeah and he was like people are fucking insane we're like we can't play without the stump, dude. But in all seriousness, like, I mean, the music comes out of the earth for me. Like, the music's inspired by earth spirits or my experience with places and plants

and animals. And that's a really beautiful part about touring is like tuning in to what's here. Oh, you really meant you can't play without the stump. I mean, we could, but it'd be like, you know, missing a certain, like, Genesequa. Have you got a Junet Sequeur on this or is that, is this tour you got the stump. We don't have a stump on this. No stunt? We can get a stump. We've got time.

It's okay. We're happy with what we got. On this tour, like for the first time, we have, like, a really good light guy. Nice. That's been our, like, number one struggle in life is getting the lights right. In the U.S. We hired a lighting guy, and he was a fucking piece of shit. Really?

That guy sucked. Straight to the camera. Straight up. You sucked. Why? He just didn't care. Oh, no. Like, he had this attitude like, man.

You know, I'm usually in a bigger nightliner. Oh, classic. But I have some compassion for the fellow. Clearly, he was, like, going through some, like, personal fucking thing and was, like, bringing that into his work environment. But it sucked for us. Yeah. Like, he kind of, like, brought the show down, like, 10%.

It can really ruin the show if the lights are bad. It couldn't, it wasn't bad, but it was just so uninspired. It was, like, literally just, like, you could just tell he's just doing this. Yeah. But the dude who's doing lights in the, this tour is like a fan of the band. He's like young. And he has like a vision. He like gets our vision. We're like yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's what we need. And it adds so much. We had that. The last headline tour we did the same thing. First light guy that was like amazing. And we just,

we'd hit him up beforehand and we were like, what if every time the guitar bends, the lights bent? And he was like, yeah. Yeah. And then like night one, it's just like. Yeah. It's cool. Yeah. Especially for our band because it's atmospheric, right? It's like creating a space and like enveloping. the entire space with the magic that we're weaving for that night. And we want it to be activating all the senses. Do you play with a click? Yeah, for part of the set, yeah. Yeah, I love playing with the click.

I love it. It's the best. For me, because I'm like a very, like, groovy drummer. Some people would say I'm a bad drummer. I love the challenge of taking this very rigid click and then just, like, warping it and, like, bending it and making it as just, like, bending it to my, I will. I learned that from like one of my favorite like drummers

is the Rizza, Wutan producer. That was like another really influential sound because if you or like whatever, J. Diller or something. Like you listen to the beat and you analyze it and even though it's an MPC looping or an ASR 10 looping, like I still like the snare is going to be

there. No, no. Why isn't the snare there? And it's because they're like fucking warping time and space. They're taking this. The push and the pull. Yeah, they're taking an MPC metronome and making it like bending the time in between the clicks. It's a real art to doing that as well. Like mastering the push and the pull without being out of time.

Yeah. And making sure you don't push too much that just pushes you off the beat and just gradually get faster and faster. I'm always in the danger of like falling off the back. Oh, really? I have this conversation all the time. I'm very, I'm a frontman. I am so early.

I'm so, so early. Yeah. I would love your problem. It's a problem because you fall off the back and then you're just in the pit. Yeah, but until the fall off, being a backsman is way groovier than being a frontman. I'm pretty groovy. I like to groove. I've tried everything to like reinforce like a fake, like pullback.

I try getting fucked up before I play. There's nothing. My brain just works just slightly ahead. Well, the way, not to spill the, you know, not to get too technical, but the way I do, the click track is we play the song, like exactly the way we want to be. And then I map that, like, exactly. Yeah. And so the click track is almost like, it's like, oh, yeah, that's a really good idea. That's exactly what I would have done. Yeah. Because I did. So we do have that because we, when we track, we'll, if there's a ring out that needs to hang, we'll drop it to BPM or whatever. The chorus needs to get five. it goes up three, four BPM, but we don't like map, like a crazy thing. My tempo map looks like this. A lot of people always like wonder with Australia. They're like, oh, you don't play to a click, do you?

Because of that, because we are up and down, not as much as you guys. But like, I find that's the best of both worlds, because I get to play with the click. I get to play the same every night. Like, I get to, if I've got more adrenaline one day, the click is going to tell me, like, you need to calm the fuck down. Or vice versa, if I need to pick it up. audience gets a good experience. Yes.

But then there is the ebb and flow of some tempo changes. The audience, that's one of the main reasons we do it. He says, I hate it when bands, like, change their music from the recorded version. Like, when Metallica plays, like, really fucking fast, I don't think that's cool. Or when Headfield, like, changes the vocal phrasing, I don't, like, oh, wow, I really, I'm glad he's improvising on this night. No, I like to hear it exactly the way I heard it on the record when I had that experience hearing master puppets for the first time.

And so, yeah, tempo is like one of the most important aspects of listening to a piece of music. And so we want the tempos to be exactly like they are on the record. There is a counterpoint to that, though, that I don't think you'll get it in the black metal community,

but we certainly do in the metal core, like metalcore live shows, the amount of backing tracks that people are putting in in order to sound like the record because they put too many backing tracks on the record. Yeah.

Now that shit. I see people getting annoyed, not like about improvising, like we're talking about, like, oh, it didn't sound exactly like the CD. That's where the line is for me. Like, you need to be okay with it not sounding. You don't want,

otherwise you could just stand in a room and listen to the CD really loud. Definitely. And I should say, like, me as a drummer, I cannot play the same thing twice. I'm not capable of doing it. Like, it's a jam the whole time.

join the whole set. Yeah. And it drives everyone else crazy. That's like, you know, it's like, you know, I have some general guidelines like, this is a blast beat. This is going to be a, you know, whip the horse. Maybe it's like, this is always on the high hat. This is always on the ride. But the playing is always improvised. I'm just not capable of playing the same thing twice. That must be so much fun. It's fun. Yeah. You must enjoy playing gigs. It's so fun. What's that like? Last night and it's really good. Last night in London was like so fun because, you know, we played, this is a new set. We played the same set for a long time in Europe and then in North America.

And this is a brand new set. Playing a lot of material we've not played in years, like stuff of Black Cascade. Crystal ammunition. You're playing it? Yeah, tonight. Playing tonight. Yeah. And it's sick.

It's so sick. It's such a sick song. Because in the past, we're like, ah, man, like we never play stuff from Black Cascade because it just doesn't really, doesn't feel right. But crystal ammunition is like fucking rocking. It sounds awesome. It's so fun to play. I love that record.

And so it takes. some time to like really inhabit the songs and let them like fully blossom as like the live version in 2024 and like last night in london it was like oh like all of a sudden it's like almost time slows down and it's interesting having a click because at the beginning of the tour it feels like it's just like this and I'm like trying to keep up with it but last night it felt like yeah I love those nights and I'm just like watching watching my hand like oh I can like tune it I can bend it. Yeah, you have enough, you have extra time in

between time. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Or in the shape change. Like last night, I was like, oh, the space is opening up this way. It was trippy. You doing drugs before you play? Never. Never? No. No, I don't... I mean, I'll drink like a glass of wine sometimes. I smoked weed for the first

time in like years a couple months ago with my girlfriend in Berlin. But smoking weed is like taking acid for me. Yeah, same. I hate it so much. I like it. I like the brutal paranoia. You like that?

Well, I don't like it, but I see the use in it because it's like a meditation. Meditation, what is meditation other than just not freaking out and just realizing, oh, this is happening. Okay. This thought is occurring. I can't do that. I'm not going to follow it. I can't do that. I always follow it.

Just like follow it straight to hell. The fear. Yeah, the fear. Wait, but mushrooms, I'm fine. which is crazy because something happens in my brain on mushrooms where I start to get the anxiety and the mushroom goes, no, you're feeling like this because of that connection you just made, but make this one instead. And then I just go, oh, that's fine. Wait, the mushroom says this?

Well, I guess. It's something in my fucking head. The mushroom makes me say it. Does the mushrooms speak? I have a voice. Honestly, mushrooms is like the only thing that has, I've rewired stuff in my, brain to do with anxiety. Like I've had anxiety my entire life. And it was one time where that happened on the bus.

And I started getting anxious about something. And it was like the mushroom in my fucking head went, no, your brain, just really casually, your brain got to that because of this. Wow. And just don't do that. And then my anxiety, in fact, that same tour was DMT,

but like, which was a similar thing. My theory is a bit of my anxiety just went And with it obviously a bit of my vulnerability And you know And it was weird It's like changed my brain In a good way for me My brain was definitely changed by mushrooms for sure

100% A bad time or a good time Um Good Good Yeah it definitely like cracked me open I've been cracked open a few times Like you know one or two times

With psychedelics Other times just on the natch. Just raw dog in a fucking breakdown. There's a raw dog in psychosis. I'm glad they exist, the plants. Yeah. I guess like at this point in my life,

I'm just not interested in blasting. Like I've been blasted myself so hard. Just with going really fucking hard at things. And at this point in my life, it doesn't feel necessary to like just destroy myself. Yeah. like regularly. Like it's more about subtle tweaks

and maybe being a bit more instead of just like painting the whole fucking thing with like a red brush, just like, oh, let's tweak this. Yeah. I wish I could get, get, I mean, I can't. I tried it a million times to go. I used to be able to smoke weed.

It was fine. And then I smoked it too much. And my brain just went, nope. But I miss, like you're saying, just that little like, just like two puffs on a joint. And then my brain thinks differently. It doesn't happen anymore.

It's just everyone. you, you're going to die. You have cancer. It's happening. Yes, the cancer. Did a weed tell you to stop? Because I was smoking too much weed for a while and I was like dependent on it. And the weed kept saying, usually in dreams, like you need to stop smoking me.

Oh, what? And if you don't, it's going to be bad for your mind. Oh, I got to the bad. I didn't get any warning. I got to the bad mind. I got warnings and didn't listen to it. Yeah. I feel like we got the same sort of situation.

I had a full fucking meltdown. It was like. six months of my life and just for just from fucking weed yeah it's strong yeah it's strong yeah it's it's gonna be weird now that it's legal and just kind of everywhere kind of dangerous i think it it should be respected yeah like it's not because like to get we legal like a narrative is created like it's just this chill thing man it's a really powerful plant that can really change your mind can be really strong it could be so fucking strong when i was like dipping my toe in again like I was looking for one to one CBD to THC weed anywhere

and nowhere sold it. It was like, no, we got those 99% THC that will fucking, it's like smoking crack. Or like dab rigs? Like I see these kids with their crazy dab rigs. Hell no. Some people can just do it. No, not me.

I mean either. You told me something when you just got here. No days off. On this tour, well, there's, I think, two travel days. It's like getting from Ireland to Bristol, which is like a long drive, it was a long drive and a long ferry. So it's kind of a day off,

but you're just in the bus all day. Yeah. It's not really a day off. It's not really a day off. All the bands on the same bus. Three bands, mortifram, Gayria, and Wolves in the Throne Room and the crew. So it's 24 people.

And at one point, we had two girlfriends on the bus too. I had a girlfriend in the bunk. Oh, you've been on the double, the double bunk. I've never done it. It was an interesting experiment to, like, see where my mind went. Like, I fucking, you're breathing my air. Was it good, though you're tighter for it? Yes, definitely.

Did you get kicked off the bus? No, no, no, no. She's great. We found a way to make it work. But it was interesting to, like, be in, like, a very uncomfortable situation and not freak out. Because it's, like, being in the nightliner bunk could already be kind of claustrophobic, but then, like, take away half the oxygen and half the space. And just to be able to, it was like being.

It was like laying on a bed of nails. Like I'm just going to be okay with this and see the freak out and just not go there. It's an interesting experiment. You're far wiser in the mind than me. Every time you're like, you get to like, I see where it's going. I'm just not going to go there. I'm like, let's get there fucking quick. Let's get this freak out going.

That was the best advice I ever got from a book. Like, you know, like whatever as a kid read Zen Mind beginner's mind. You told me about this last one. Yeah, the class. And then the one like nugget is that like the thoughts are going to come and go. And just let them come, but just don't. And they can hang out, but don't serve them tea. Nice.

But I guess in my mind now, like I've just kind of transposed that. Just don't follow that thought because the thought comes in your mind. You have cancer. Everyone hates you. Yeah, get both of those. Yeah. Just don't like, all right. Okay, cool.

Maybe don't fucking analyze it. And certainly don't like follow that thought like it's like because the thought is like come with me. Come into a world of like fucking madness. Yeah. And like fear. Which you can't get out of. Well, hopefully you can. But some people don't.

Just don't follow that thought. Another one I've heard is like even if someone is speaking to you that doesn't have a body like a spirit or something as a non-corporial, don't trust it necessarily. Because sometimes when people encounter spirits for the first time, they're like, I'm special. I'm being spoken to by angels. It's just like another person. Like you don't listen to, don't trust everything.

Wait, do you get spoken to by spirits? Yeah. Or whatever. Or whatever. Or whatever. Or whatever you want. Well,

this is a big line between me and my head going, you have cancer, or someone else in my head saying it. Well, you were just saying before the mushroom came and talked to you. Yeah,

but I was on drugs. One can have that same sort of experience that one might have on mushrooms in a non-psychadelic state, just with whatever the chemicals that occur indogously in our brains and have the same experience. So what is that voice? I don't know. For me, it's very much an open question. Certainly, like in many cultures over the years, it's been, that's a spirit, that's an ancestor, that's a plant, that's an interdimensional being. It's not important for me at all to try to answer that question.

I think it's an unanswerable question. It's just a matter of what's the most artful and beautiful way to describe that universally human experience of interacting with voices that are not just the one like usual ego mind yeah okay now i'm with you as i was like i was thinking in my head i was like do you mean ghosts and then but you just mean the voices in your head yeah yeah that aren't you but one might easily call that a ghost one might easily perceive that and believe that to be the spirit of a tree or the spirit of a stone. And most people in the world do, even now. Do you have like any religion, any, you're atheist?

Do you, what's your vibe? Vibe? I feel like there's a, what do you think happens when we die? Oh, I have no idea. No idea? What would you like to happen? I don't really have an opinion about it. It's like the hardest question anyone's ever asked anyone.

I think it's completely, unanswerable. Yeah, it is, isn't it? Even after I said it, I was like, yeah, what do I fucking mean? I hope it's something that I cannot even comprehend right now. Of course. But then when it happens, it's just like this big light bulb like, oh. Like that question, like what, that's quantify and figure out what happens after we die. Like just that way of looking at things is like the classic human ego mind. Yeah. Like, let's take like literally the mystery of the entire cosmos and like figure it out. figure it out and like something we can just talk about right now and then oh now i get it now everything is safe but we all have moments of when we like peek at the transcendence beyond just this

one moment whether it's on psychedelic drugs or the birth of a child or something really weird happening that you think has could no way be a coincidence yeah which happens it happens to a lot it happens to fucking everyone even the people who are most materialistic and reductionist in their worldview i guarantee you every one of those people has like two things that have happened in their life that are inexplicable yeah um and feel very different like it feels like what magic feels like i'm still in the ego mind though because my brain goes i just want to know yeah like i know i should just be thinking it doesn't matter if we don't know but then my brain is like i just hope i know i just hope yeah when i leave this realm it's just like oh

Oh, this is what happens. I go to a cooler place. No, do you know what? Even if it's just like, I can't even explain it. It's weird. The experiences of dreams, the experiences of drugs, the experiences of even like met it, like I've done Wimhoff breathing and that can get trippy. I've got so trippy on that.

I've talked about it on the podcast before. But like these things, when you have one of those moments, it really is like you're in another realm. Yeah. And it's like addictive. and I just hope it's that again. I had the weirdest thing on a, on a, you know,

the breath hold at the end of the Wimhoff thing. I had this, like a vision of being at the Empire State Building. And not even like at the top of it, just in the elevator. And I'd never been before. And I, it happened and I forgot about it.

And then I went up the Empire State Building like, fucking three years later and I'm in the elevator. And I get deja vu. And then I was like, no, that was that time I was in the bath doing my whim of. I was here. This is then. And I was just like, that was one of my moments where I'm just like, oh my God.

Isn't there a name for that? It's called like the one white crow or something. It's like if I've heard it described as a way to kind of debunk the hardcore rationalist materialistic worldview that if that happens to you, which that looks like precognition, or at least that time is not a linear thing. that we perceive it to be, then, well, then what else is, what else have we gotten wrong?

Like, what else do we believe to be the case that isn't the whole fucking story? And how could it be? Like, there's paradigm shifts in awareness of what the world is. And why would there not be another one? Like, we're in this one where science is religion, why would there not be another one

that we cannot comprehend beyond that event horizon? Of course there will be. crazy. That's the non-linear time thing is what I took from it because it was just like, I was here, I've been here before. Wasn't a deja vu? The thing that differentiated it from previous deja vu. It was exactly the same feeling was during the Wim Hof meditation, it had happened. So whatever state of mind I was in at that time was so memorable that I remembered it. So now, then every time I got deja vu after that, I've been like, is this? just another little glitch there.

I'm doing this in a thousand different timelines or whatever. It was crazy. I've certainly had the experience of experiencing everything at once. And like that veil has peered back about time is moving like this and that facade is torn off

and everything is present always now. That's whatever. Just seeing the whole enchilada, I suppose. But we can't live our... But I think, but I think that maybe that's what saints are saints are people who are in that consciousness like all the time

they're seeing the whole enchilada or at least a much bigger piece of it all the time but that's it's hard to like go to your job when you're in that mind state yeah you end up like wearing a robe there's been times of my life when i've been in danger of being like a weird guy with a robe robe guy. Just like wandering with a robe. And I've said, no, I'm not, I'm not going to be a robe guy. Important to still maintain a foot in our poisoned religious, scientific world. For real. It's our world. It's our world. I love this world. I do, despite all of the different stuff that happens here. I love it. I'm stoked about this incarnation. I love it. I'm also incredibly blessed. I'm in an extremely blessed position. I think about that every day. What do you do when you're at

home. Well, I'm a father. I have a 10-year-old son. So I spend a lot of time with him. He's homeschooled currently, kind of started during COVID and has continued on. And he's, which is mostly me, he's just sort of like facilitating his own process. He's like a autodidact child from the future. Oh. And so he just kind of works on his projects. Like, I'm going to be working on coding some face recognition stuff today. And I'm like, all right. He's 10 years or YouTube? Yeah. Yeah.

When he's like working on his like raspberry pie or whatever, he's got his guy, like a cool older guy that tells you how to program your Raspberry Pi. See, that's cool, though, because he could go down the other side of YouTube, which is Fortnite. Yeah, he's not in the video game. He would be into like making a video game and like creating virtual reality in worlds, but he's not like a game player. He's into like how it works under the hood. Oh, that's real cool.

Yeah. He's a cool guy. You are blessed. That is a blessed. A blessed situation. Yeah. Ten years old. He's ten.

Messing around my raspberry pies. I don't know if that's normal. I mean, define normal, but you know what I mean? Like, I know ten year olds. My, my nephew. He maybe has, like, maybe unusual interests. What else do I do? We work on the band a lot.

I mean, you know, there's, like, the whole, like, business side of it, like, our merch store and, like, ordering T-shirts and making sure they arrive in the correct place at the correct time just minutia but to me that's like really important like that's like a holy part of it like to me like the stage show and then like making sure the invoice is correct on the t-shirts is the same shit it's like being in a band like being a musician and no one's going to care as much as you no one the amount of times that a manager or someone like that will miss a zero on an invoice and you're fucked for real they miss zeros yeah all the time and they're not bad um but yeah no one can do it as well as you can and so yeah yeah

you know, we just sometimes just meet up on our laptops and do businessy kind of shit. What else do I do? I've always, like, built my own houses. Like every house that I've lived in since I was, you know, in my early 20s, I've built. From the ground up. Yeah. Yeah. You know, these are like weird houses.

Hit me. You live in a house that you built. It's cool. We touched on this last time. Yeah. Something to do with a moss? The current, well, me and my, I was with a woman for 20 years. Hawthorne's mom. And we have just,

it's been like a years long disillusion of that partnership. And so like literally right now, I'm technically homeless. You got to make a new house. I got to make a new house. Yeah, I'm a serial house builder. You're like a blackmail squirrel. I mean, yeah. Because like, you know, I like unconventional spaces.

I like handmade spaces, spaces that are like made with like cool materials. So right when we get home from this tour, the next day some logger's going to come to the woods behind the studio and we're going to take down a few big Douglas fir trees and mill those up and then that wood will dry for about a year

or so and I'm going to use that to build my next dwelling. Where are you going to live for a year? I've got like... You've got stuff. I've got a bunch of houses. I've got like a bunch of weird shacks and houses. See, I remember this from the last thing. Like a true nomad. Yeah, I'm super minimalistic.

Do you get electricity? you know. Yeah, of course. Yeah. I don't have a flushing toilet right now. Really? What do you do? Like a composting toilet.

Oh. Yeah. How's that smell? Great. Great? Yeah. I was expecting not as bad as you'd think, but great. It's fine.

It's like the smell of like life occurring. Okay. It's where. Yeah. You're fucking. Yeah. Human shit like mixed with like moss and humus and like a healthy process of like decomposition.

Oh, more like a, a bit of a hippie. When you drive past a field, like. manure can smell quite nice. I quite like that. I mean, it's all right, but it's not like your shit's better. You know, one's own shit never stinks. Something about that. So anyway, work on houses, um, make a lot of music. Like, I work in Wolves in the Throne Room, but I also always do electronic music on the side. Yeah. Just kind of like a, because Wolves on the throne room is like a heavy metal band. And it has to have like this certain production value. And it has to be up to the standards of all of us. Um, so I like always have to have to have

my own thing where I can just do whatever I want to do. And that's so it's usually electronic music. I'm kind of a raver as well. Yeah. You're like techno and that's at house. I'm still on the house thing. I've got questions about the houses. Oh, please.

I'm still in the house. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Don't let me, don't let me give that short shift. How are you cooking? I have a single electric burner that I enjoy the challenge of just cooking everything on just one burner. Yeah, I mean, I watch a load of YouTube channels where people do that.

quite often in the woods and I'm always like, that looks fucking awesome. That looks primal. Yeah, that's what I'm doing. Like, I've wanted to kind of, like, live in a super primitive way for a while. After 10 years of, like, living in a house and just being, like, a dad in a house. Yeah. Now with, like, being divorced and my kid is, like, basically an adult at this point, um, this is a really good time for me to move into a bit of a phase where I can just live by

myself and just like cook food over a fire. Are you going to the supermarket though? Or are you going to? The Olympia Food Co-op. Oh, yeah. So you're still, you've got a foot in the, foot in the natural door. Well, I live on a farm too.

Like, I've lived on the same farm for 20 years, which is where most of my houses and shacks have been that I've built over the years. The last house I built was like really nice. It was like this beautiful, like really nice house. It's like built with straw clay walls. So you can imagine like the wood. This was the one I think you were telling me about. Yeah.

Yeah. My last time we talked, it was kind of just getting done at that time. Yeah. And that was the one I kind of planned on like living in for a long time and having a family. But, you know, things change and relationships change. So yeah, I want something smaller and just a space of my own. I've not like lived alone ever, really. I've always had like roommates and living with a family.

And it'd be cool to have a space just for myself. Who owns the farm? I do technically, but I'm very interested in, like, upgrading concepts around land ownership. And so it's not a commune per se, but everyone who lives there is sort of like as a part of a community, let's say. Nice. Yeah. This sounds like a utopia. It sounds like you've made a utopia.

I mean, honestly, it's really good right now. Have you got a baker? Yeah. There's some, like, there's some good cooks. There's not like a designated baker. with a bakery. But yeah, there's a lot of food sharing and, you know, it's just neighborly. It's like a, it's awesome. Village or something. I find it so hard to compute this in my head. It's cool. As you can see where I live. You're in the city. Yeah. City guy.

Next couple years, I'm going to kind of step back a little bit from that property because I've lived there for a really long time. I'm going to build like a temporary dwelling at the Wolfhouse where Nathan lives, where our studios at. I'd like to be living right next door to my studio for a while. So you could get in there and just anytime the lightning and a bottle strikes. Yeah. And it's in the woods too. I just really love the woods that the studio is next to.

That's one thing I miss about living in the city because I used to, when I grew up, I lived next to woods and I'd be in there every day. And like, what do they call it in Japan? Forest bathing. I can't remember what the name of it is. Yeah. But I love that. There's one.

Sometimes we'll drive to it, like near Locke Lomond and there's a good woods for a, Shoku Gehrin, something like that anyway. I have a forest bath So is this just like being in the woods?

Yeah. Just something about and to me I don't know it kind of doesn't work for me in winter when I'm there

I need the green in there and it's just like a crazy visual and I can't even explain it just sea of green everywhere.

I know. Have you smells and everything? The smell of the moist humus. Have you traveled in the northwest where we live? What counts as the northwest? This would be like, you know, near Seattle.

Yeah, sure. I don't think I've ever been outside of the cities. I've just played shows. Oh, okay. So you've not been up into the high mountains. No, no. And like the ancient forests. No.

So our forests are evergreen. Like, the forests are dominated by Douglas fir and hemlock and western red cedars. And then some deciduous trees as well. But the forests are evergreen. And they're very like mossy forests. because it's, of course, a very gray, wet climate. And so in the old mature forest, it's just this world of moss. It is very much like what you'd imagine, like a Japanese, like Zen Garden being.

It's this quiet, mossy, dark realm. I love that shit. I mean, that's the music. It literally comes, as you're saying that, I'm like hearing the music. Yeah. It really comes across in it. In many ways, the music is that. It is that forest, is the music is.

Is that? I assume, I think I, I think you told me this before, other than primordial arcana. Are you all like two hunters? The photo on the front, the photo on the back, I believe, I mean. Yeah. There's a good woods. That's a good woods. Is that, is that the place you're talking about or is that a different woods?

Oh, every, every photo is like from the northwest. Yeah, I think you told me that last time. Like, we've taken maybe half the photos we use on our different layouts. But certainly every photo like comes from like that bioregion, like that realm. Yeah, that's our shit. Like that's when I feel really lucky to have that as an artist because we will never get off in some weird tangent. Yeah. Like the fans just know what we do.

And what you do comes from that. And it's really a lifetime's work. It's like you're never going to go. I will never go into the forest. I'm just kind of done with this. It's like, living the city. and make like a fucking 80s album. I will never make an 80s album.

I could see living in the city. Like my partner now lives in Berlin. Love Berlin. I love Berlin. And I love cities. I love Glasgow a lot. I love Scotland. London felt really awesome to be in.

I love cities. But I don't know. I'm the kind of guy. I think in the years to come, I'm going to have a couple different houses. My partner just inherited her, was about to inherit her family estate in Philippines. She was born on some mountain in the Philippines.

I can hear you making an album there. That sounds like an album. I'm a bit of a tropical dude. I love the Philippines. I've only been once. It was fucking amazing. I'd never been. It looks really, really cool.

And she has an apartment in Berlin, so I'm there a lot. And I'll always have, like, a number of fucked up hippie shacks in Cascadia. I'm excited. It's a cool time to be me. Hell yeah. Tell me what Wool's has got coming up

that you can tell me. after we get home from this tour we are going to we have time blocked out to write like we each have a home studio and we're just going to go in there and just write riffs

do you write riffs as well oh yeah yeah we all write about a third of the video such a diplomatic wonderful I love your band man I fucking love your band it's so sick and now like when I hear

behind the veil of like how it goes on it's like it's just so legit like everything in your songs and the artwork and everything and then talking to you i'm like well thanks it's fucking legit it's not fake yeah exactly like i don't really have like an artistic persona like it really is what you see is what you get it would be easy to have one as well actually literally are weird wizards in the forest yeah i love it let's end it on weird wizards in the forest because it's a fucking great sentence uh thanks for coming i hope to have you again you can come back

for a third time i'll come come by anytime you want i like it in here next time i'll bring a drumhead I make a drumhead art and I feel... You make one, it will go up. I'm sorry that all my trees are fake, but the cats piss on them if they're real. Fair enough. I like that cool stuffed Raven Crow thing. There's a few of those around.

These are Larses, by the way. Dude. Real life Lars sticks. It's my favorite drummer. I know, we had the chat last time. That's why I wasn't going to do it this time, because it's mine as well. When I'm done, I'd like to touch the stick.

You can be done. You can do it on camera. Get the stick. Get the stick. These were given... See, I like to build stuff as well, but badly. That was played by him at a festival. I'm a big fan.

I'm a Lars fan. Yeah, we had like 40 minutes on Lars on the last one. I'm a Lars fan. His business, his attitude, his drumming, playing the crash on a two instead of one. Yeah. I do that. If you come on the show tonight, I hope you will.

Fuck here, please. You will hear me. You will hear, oh, thank you. You will hear many Larsism. Let's call it there. Thank you so much. Weird wizards in the forest who are big fans of Lars All Rich. Hell yeah.

That's me and her. Let's go.