The Downbeat - Mike Kroeger - Nickelback

Episode Date: July 29, 2024

My guest on the podcast this week is Michael Kroeger, bassit of Nickelback. We talk about growing up and the origins of starting the band with his brother Chad, his extensive surgeries, the new movie Hate to Love: Nickelback, Jiu Jistu, his reasons for moving to the USA from Canada, medicinal healing, and much more.

Hello guys and welcome back to a big, a star-studded episode of the Downbeat Podcast. My guest this week is Mike Kroger of the band, Nickelback. Kroger. He's a Kroger. He plays bass in Nickelback. It's a bit of a weird one, right? Because I got an email from his press agent saying he loves the show, he wants to do it. Then I turn up to pick him up and then he's like, oh my God, it's you. He's a big, by the way, he's a big stray fan. He's a legend. He was like, oh, it's you. and he sort of pretended like he didn't know. The whole thing was very weird.

So we talk about that. We also talk about growing up with Chad Kroger, because obviously it's his brother. There's a new documentary out, hate to love, Nickelback. We sort of dip into that a little bit, like why they got so much hate.

Look, big riffs. Big riffs. I'm a nickelback guy, okay? It was a great little chat. I watched them that night. Loved the show. Side note, during the biggest song, right, someone passed out in the crowd.

They stopped, obviously, to get the person out, and they came back in just on like a two, three, four, and it was like, it like clocked in my head. I was like, no tracks, no nothing, just riffing. I was like, this band is sick. I'm a nickelback guy. If you're not a nickelback guy, just watch it anyway, because it's fun. It's funny.

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designs in it. Listeners of the Downbeat podcast can get 22% off one to two displays or 33% off three or more displays using the code Downbeat. Go to www.dispate.com forward slash the Downbeat and check it out. It's Michael Kroger of Nickelback on the Downbeat podcast. Michael Kroger. Yes, sir. Nickelback. Yes, sir. Welcome to the Downbeat. Happy to be here, man. You didn't even know it was me. I didn't know it was you. I knew it was a worthy, a worthy, a worthy interview to do because I trust my people to find me good things. But when we were rolling up and I was like, oh, there's somebody waving the van in. I was like, wait a minute. That guy looks just like the guy who plays drums for stray. And we're in his town. Wait a minute. Could this be

it? Could I be on the thing that I've seen before peripherally? Like, I've never really gone deep on your show, but I've watched clips of it. You know, because you talk to, you know, people that I find interesting. And so this is just a, what a nice surprise. Wow, thanks for coming. It's fucking great. 351st biggest band on Spotify I look today. Wow. Think about how much music is in the world. Dude, it's absurd. I don't know what we're doing, man. We have a good time doing what we do. And yeah, when I hear things like that, it's usually in situations like this where somebody's on the other side of the table, you know, has done some homework. Yeah. I've done some proper homework on on what we've done and and and you know some of these kooky statistics and stuff and

whenever i hear them i've never heard that one before it's absolutely insane like in my head i'm thinking like 350 people is not a lot of people like 350 artists is not a lot of artists that's like crazy well done congrats yeah no again like i say i don't know you know you must know you've been doing it for a minute yeah but um i've never really We, I should say we, because I know it's all of us, we don't read the scoreboard. We never have as we're doing this. We hear things, but we don't look for it. You know, we don't look, hey, how are we, you know, how are we doing in the, you know,

somebody will tell us a statistic and we're always surprised. Like when you just said that, that surprises me. When we went past a billion streams with how you remind me on Spotify, you know, a week ago or whatever, we sat down for dinner with the guys a few days. days ago and it just came up. What do you think? Billion streams. I was like, cool. I don't know. Like a billion anything. I don't know what that looks like. A billion is crazy. I can comprehend 350. Yeah, that I can kind of see what that looks like. A billion things. So yeah, we're in. It's surreal territory, man. Was there a moment like, sorry to come straight in on

that question. Oh, fuck. Yeah. Let's go. Let's get to work. Let me get me being professional out the way and then we'll get the non-professional because mostly it's non-professional. Was there a moment? Because obviously, were you formed 95? 95. Was there a moment where you went, oh, I've made it? Or is it still just like, oh, I'm just going about my day? We come from a fairly blue collar background. I think the moment that moved me was when I realized I wouldn't have to go back to work, you know, like stacking boards and bricks. and bags of cement. Was that work?

I did that, yeah. I worked in a lumberyard for a long time. It was my favorite. It really satisfied my OCD. You know, stacking and organizing things and picking out the things that are faulty and getting rid of them. I like that.

But, you know, I also worked at a coffee joint and at a supermarket at the same time. I was working three stiffs at the same time to basically fund my music habit. And when I realized I wouldn't have to go back. Because whenever I would go on tour, I would come back and I would pick up on those jobs where I'd left off.

Because in that sort of world, they don't really like people like me who would just go, hey, next month, I'm leaving for six weeks. I'm not much share with those jobs. Of course you have. But if you work hard and you're intelligent and easy to be around, I don't know if I am or maybe I'm not. I think you are so far.

So far so good. Okay. We haven't worked together yet. But still, you know, I would just make a deal with my, with my bosses. I'd just be like, hey, listen, you're happy with my performance, right? And they'd be like, yeah, you know, whatever it is, stock and shelves or whatever the fuck, you know, we're doing. And I just say, you know, they go, you can't go. You know, you can't leave or we're going to have to let you go. And I was like, well, I'll make you a deal. Here's, here's the agreement I'll make with you right now. And I had no leverage. But I would just throw it at them. And I'd just be like, if you can train somebody up in the six weeks i'm gone to be better than me adios go with god

you know we're good nice never happened just made your own job security because i was i would hustle i would i would work people under the table i had one boss at one point at the lumber yard pull me aside after the first three weeks i worked there he's like hey what are you doing and i was like what do you mean, I'm getting it done. I'm working into tomorrow's stuff now. He said, you got to slow it down, man. And I was like, what? I didn't understand the concept, right? Because I'd moved from the prairies where everybody works their tail off to the coast where everybody kind of... Where's the prairies and where's the coast? I'm in Glasgow. Oh, yeah, of course. Okay. So in Canada. I grew up in Alberta where, you know, this is as blue color as it gets in Canada.

And then we moved to the coast, which is like yoga mats and marijuana, right? That's why I love living on the West Coast, to be honest. But I remember this guy who's like, first of all, you're kind of making some of us look bad. And he was a manager. Right. And then he goes, leave some work for tomorrow. You know, just don't do everything today. leave some for tomorrow and I was like I looked at at the guy and I love the guy but I was like

you're gonna stay here yeah that's the insane work ethic yeah like if that's what this is I don't want it yeah you know I like meritocracy you know you you work you dig you get more right yeah yeah I don't like the whole like turn up you know give your 60% go home live your real life. Yeah. I just can't. Well, that's why you're a musician. Exactly the same as me.

It's too extreme. I'm too extreme for that. I can't. That whole, my wife and I, the constant battle we have is, you know, she's a moderator.

And I say that moderation is for cowards. What I mean? Unless it's done in moderation. And she said, what? And I go, yeah, I'll do moderation in moderation.

How do you fucking? like that and she hates it in the well i mean speaking of like no moderation in the like 10 minutes that we spoke before this podcast you told me about three surgeries that's the most recent one why are you doing why you got so many surgeries reel me off those surgeries oh wow so um if you don't mind i don't know the backstory if any of them are really dark uh no so i think it was eight weeks old i had brain surgery because I had a fibroid cyst growing roots to my brain that was going to take me out. So I got out of that one. They removed the moderation as well.

I think that's went with, yeah, that part of my brain got shut off there. And then there's been various others, you know, most recently especially, like ever since I turned pretty much right when I turned 40 and I didn't slow down, like everybody told me to It's coming for me. Um, fuck. I, I, the, my 41st year on earth, uh, had two hernia surgeries, uh, a little hernia repairs from deadlifting. Oh, this is all coming for me.

I'm 37 and I love to deadlift. You love to deadlift. Okay. So let me tell you what's going to happen to you. Yeah. Okay. So, uh, what happens is, is you, you go through your deadlift program and you're having a great time.

And then one day, something pops in the, you know, kind of like in the area between where you're, pelvis is between your pelvis and your dick right around there there's a little bulge and it hurts like fucking crazy and then you ignore it and you keep going and it gets worse and you keep going and then finally you can't walk and you go into the doctor and the guy goes oh yeah you have an inguinal hernia we have to repair it okay repair it they put and it's the recovery on it is guttural like i i I've had a lot of bad things happen to me. Hernia repair recovery is one of the worst things. It is terrible.

So for me, they put a mesh in there. And what happens is the scar tissue blends in with the mesh. And it makes this impenetrable thing that you just like it's so tough. And it forms a real wall. So it's still in there now. Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

It never comes out. It's this nylon mesh that the scar tissue works through and it becomes like reinforced concrete. So I had that done. and then start to feel good, starts to feel great. Start lifting again. Other side. No.

And I was like, why didn't they just do both of them? Because it's just a weak spot in the, you know, in your abdominal cavity, right? It's just a weak spot. And you fill it, you got two weak spots.

You fill in one of them. What the fuck's going to happen? Pop, the other one. Back in. Get another one done. And then that recovery, and then that came out of that okay and got back to train

and back to having fun again. and genetically I'm just not right you know um my spine has never been good and uh so uh we did every moderation possible to avoid spinal surgery and then at a point had to do it and uh had uh two discs of my neck replaced one disc in my lower back and one fusion below that you are like a fucking terminated by this point it's it's pretty cool the new equipment works better than the original You know, my flexibility and range of motion is fucking tremendous now. Did you have to take time off touring? It was during COVID.

Pretty good timing. 2020, you know, or 20, what was it? 2021 was when I went in with the spinal surgery. So nobody was doing anything. And because, you know, our band is based in Canada. You're doing even less, you know, because I'm in the United States. They're all in Vancouver. Oh, so you couldn't even hang out.

Yeah, I was the same. Obviously, Australia's all states. Of course. Couldn't do anything. Yeah. You can't go anywhere because you're going to have to blah, blah, blah, and they're going to have to, you know, give you the, you know, penetrate you in the nose every time you turn around.

And then you got to wait for four weeks to, whatever. It was, it was horseshit. Got that done. And then came back after the spinal surgery. Everything felt fucking great. No, don't tell me another one. Three is enough. And what happened now?

First day back at Jiu-Jitsu, I was training with a guy. that I really like to train with. He's pretty brutal, very heavy guy. And I've learned a lot from him. And he just seemed like a really innocuous thing that he just moved my one leg to the side. And I resisted. And it was like the sound of like if you took a like an elastic band about three inches thick and snapped it against the wall. And that's what it sounded like. And it hit him like a like it made an impact on him. And I was like, and I rolled out. And he was stood up and he's like, oh my God, oh my God. What did I?

I didn't do anything. And he was in trouble for hurting a guy in class and stuff. Oh, really? And I was, well, yeah, because you're not supposed to hurt people, right? But I was like, I was writhing around because what had happened was is the, it's a muscle called the adductor longest. Yeah. It's part of the hip flexor group.

I've got problems with all of the things that you've talked about. So I'm just freaking out. Well, this one snapped right off. Complete rupture. He came right off. And actually, the recovery on that was really fast. Really? Yeah.

It turns out that one. Did you get any help? No. Really? No. It turns out with that particular muscle, it's like a really thin ribbon. And you don't really need it. Like I was talking to my clever people and they said, yeah, they don't reattach that.

They just leave it. You can work without it. And sometimes when soccer players have a partial tear of that one, they just cut it off. And I was like, just let it re-deal. And they just let everything else take a lot. It mats down and everything else takes over and it equalizes itself. I was like, that's great. Come back from that, back to training.

My God. Terror the other one. Because, you know, who, you know, I want to be. No moderation. I want to be even. I want to be symmetrical. It's the OCD, isn't it? You didn't on purpose.

Obviously. So it tears and I'm, you know, it didn't fully snap off. It just about 50% of it ripped and I went in and for whatever reason, that's a different protocol and they do reattach that. I got some screws and stuff wrapped up in there. So the left side's great. 100% probably tougher than ever. And the right side,

I'm dealing with one less muscle. When was the right side? About a year and a half ago. Oh, pretty recent then. Is it? Feels good now? Fucking great. Back in training.

Back in the gym? Ready to break the next thing off. What's your deadlift? Max? I don't know. I was talking to chat about it the other day, like 440, maybe? That's mine as well. That's the most time.

never lifted was before. Yeah, something like I don't do that anymore just because once I pass 50, I just PRs after 50 don't really mean shit, you know, it's risk to reward is pretty. And what the real personal record is is am I functional? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like I remember and what really crystallized it for me was I have this one nephew and he's, he's an athlete as well in Canada. And it was relayed to me. He was talking to his mom and, you know, she was saying, well, you know, Uncle Mike's injured, you know, and he said, you know, this kid was like, I think he was 16 at the time. And he goes, what would life be like if Uncle Mike wasn't injured? And I was like, I heard that and I was like, oh, Jesus Christ, I'm fucking really fucking this up. Like little kids are watching, you know, seeing my dysfunctional pattern of drive, drive, drive, break, recover, recover, drive, drive, break, recover. It's a shit cycle. So I started to be a little bit more intelligent. It only took me 50 years to.

start to What do you do now training-wise? Jiu-Jitsu? Lift Jiu-Situ. I just started actually just started in the last month

back to, you know, get under a barbell with squats and dead lifts again. I broke my back and it was, luckily I didn't need

any surgery or anything. But dead lifts came back pretty fast. I couldn't put a barbell on my back for two years. Like it just because it was it was right in

whereabouts where like a barbell will go on a low bar squat. Okay. And I just couldn't do it. And even now I'm like, I've taken barbell squats out because I'm just like, I just don't want to. I'm 100% now, but like it's just uncomfortable. Yeah. But there's nothing like it.

It can get in your head too, you know? Yeah. Exactly. A lot of lifting is mental, right? Like if you get under it and you genuinely believe you can't do this, you're going to dump your fucking, you're going to fail. Or injure yourself. That's worse.

Yeah. But true, a lot of it's so mental. Do you train on tour? Yeah. How often do you train on tour? This is come every day. Okay. Well, yeah, let's chat more.

That's all I want to fucking talk about. Let's chat more. Well, we're just getting started. We have lots of talking about. Yeah. No, I try to train every show day. I have mats, jihitsu mats, and I have a room where they'll roll the mats out, set that up.

I have one crew guy. Sometimes two crew guys will come and just be my anatomical, you know, thing to work on. Well, they don't even train? No. But I'm like, not only am I twisting them up and choking them, but I drop some pearls for us. So I teach him some self-defense as like payment. You know, I am paying them too, but I'm not paying them to do this, right? Is it just like a fucking light, a lighting guy or what?

My teleprompter guy, Marco, he's probably two, uh, 240, 250. 6-2, big guy. That's what I want, I want a big frame. to work. Like when I'm back home training at my school in Beverly Hills, I'm the guy who gets handed all the 300 pounders. Twist them up. They're worried that if they put the 300 pounders with the small people, they'll break them. So I'm the fucking big guy. Right. Fuck. Great. You know, I never got called the big guy until, you know, 10 years ago. Through the injuries. They built you back up. I don't know what it is, but I got started getting referred to as the big guy. And, you know,

I heard. Yeah, you got a frame on you. But, but I, but I, I see adults popping out. But I didn't for a lot. I was a very skinny kid, very weak. Same. I'm in the best shape of my life right now. 50 year old me would kick this shit out of 20 year old me in the worst way. Proper brutality.

It wouldn't be close. Do you weight lift on tour as well? I have not real lifts. Like I have dumbbells and a weight bench that I use. But no, not real. Unless I can get a place that has a proper station in it. And it's really hard to get in gyms here in the UK. Like, you know, in the United States, like, you walk into a golds in the United States.

And you're like, hey, I want to train. Okay, 15 bucks. We have a lot of the, like, automated bullshit here. You have to put a pin code thing in. Yeah. But if we'd have known about this, there's a gym in Glasgow called Extreme Gym. And it's like, it's like a US, like, you know, one of those US warehouse teams? It's one of those.

Yeah. We could have done it. We could have got you a brand new injury. Yeah. Yeah. Be wheeling me out there tonight. Well, whatever, it's okay. Stoked for tonight?

Yeah. What date is this of the tour? I haven't done that much research. Number one. Number one? You're doing press on day one. Yeah, shit. Thank you.

I'm going to go roll Jiu-Jitsu and lift two on day one. Oh, my God. That's 406. You know, Glasgow has a special place in my heart because I'll never forget the first time we came here. We were supporting, well, how you remind me, basically, the Silver Side Up record when we came here. And we played, we were booked to play a place called the barrel lens. Oh yeah. Fuck, man.

Oh, yeah. What a fucking legend. Did you go in? Like, you played it? We played it three times. It's the most legendary venue in Scotland. I'll never forget. I got off of our bus and our crew guys came up kind of scared, you know?

And we were like, what's the problem? And they said, well, when they pulled the trucks up, you know, and we were going to start to load in, you know, these really big scary guys. came up and said listen here open the trucks and get the fuck out of the way and they're like what and they're like they learned that there's generations of gear loaders at the barrel of yeah like and these people don't fuck around that's like they're the best in the country fucking i've never heard of anything like this before i saw i'm already from the you know the first time you step off the bus you know you're on terra firma this is my first experience yeah i was go besides the fact that my grandmother's family comes

from here. No way. Yeah, yeah, Klan McMillan. Amazing. Yeah, yeah. The, the clan seat's just out of town. That's so safe. Yeah. I'm also like, I live here, but my parents are from here, but they, I never lived here with them. I just moved back here in the pandemic. It's really weird. Wow, that's cool. I feel at home in Glasgow because I fucking love it. Yeah. But like, I feel like I might have a McMillan in me. Maybe. Imagine we're related. How, how not unusual that. Do you know what, though? I also have family in Canada. Really? Maybe we're related. We're going to have to do some... I'm going to get all those injuries. You are. You know, it's regardless of whether we're directly related, we come from the same sort of, uh, the British Isle stock that, you know,

genetically it's, there's some fucking caps of that stuff. I love it though. Like, I love when you meet someone who has like, obviously, and I feel like America has, I'll be the one that says this, so I'll get the heat. I feel like America has like each state has, has, like, each state has, like an independent personality, but then you get Canada, Britain. Yeah. And we're just like, and Australia. And we're just like, yeah, we're all the same. It's so weird.

There's a real kinship there. Yeah. The queen. Yeah. And RIP. King now. Yeah. But anyhow, the, uh, the, especially up here, right?

Oh, yeah. It's fucking crazy. Yeah. Um, but the, I want to finish my barreling story. I'm sorry. I'm, no, no, no, not at all. I love it. I'm, but I am going to bring it back.

because this is what sealed the deal for me on this town. You know, we're already kind of looking around going, wow, this is a gritty place. And these, you know, these folks, and they're really friendly, but you can see if they like you, they like you. And if they don't like you,

they'll fucking punch you in the mouth, you know. And so we're, you know, just kind of, wow. And I think it was our first UK date, if I'm not mistaken. So it was a real trial by fire, you know. And I'll never forget that, um,

they had these curtains that would close on the, for the change. And so the guys would do the changeover and get everything ready. And then, okay, go out, boys. And then they're going to open the curtains when it's time, you know, when the show starts and the light started. And I'll fucking never forget. I could hear this fucking, I don't want to blow it. But I could hear this commotion.

Yeah. And there's no more house music. The house music was off. And I could just hear commotion out there. on the other side of the curtain. And I remember just standing out there looking around, I'm kind of confused, like, are we okay? You know, coming from Canada, you know,

maybe easily frightened at that time. Yeah. We start playing the first song, which I can't remember what it is, but I'm sure it's a rocker because we've always started with a rocker kind of song. And the curtains open, and it is mass combat.

Everybody's punching everybody in the fucking face. It's just elbows and fucking bodies flying everywhere. Yeah. we were just like, what the fuck is this? I love it. Do you know the story with the, the, uh, the floor in the Barrelands is springloaded. Oh yeah. Yeah. So they like, they can jump. We have a place like that in Vancouver, the Commodore ballroom as a spring floor as well. I've only ever played that place that's in the bit of Vancouver where the drug, the drug town. What's the name? It's like a something theater. The rickshaw. Yeah, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's,

gritty, man. And that is where you all played when you went through. I know you did. Because I couldn't make the show. We are just, we are in a history of missing each other's shows. Yes. I missed. You came to L.A. I missed you. Yeah. I was in Nashville when you played Nashville. Yes. I reached out to both you and John and you were busy. Yeah, I was doing these. Uh, how was that Nashville show? I imagine Nashville being a top three place in the world for you to play. Right now it sure is, you know, because country has kind of embraced the sound of nickelback we have a lot of a lot of fans and a lot of lovers in that world and so as a result basically all of the country music scene came backstage you know um we had hardy on stage with us we had earnest on stage with us we had uh

who else was even there everybody was fucking everyone i knew everyone i knew was there everyone i know that plays in country bands was there yeah it was the to-do thing that fucking weekend was so cool man It was so, we just really felt the love. Everybody was, was at the show and, and, you know, we made so many friends. Jelly Roll came to the show. Yeah. One of the guys I know plays for Jelly Roll and he was there. Everyone at watches the podcast will know this.

And I don't mean this to sound offensive. I'm a Nickelback apologist. And I always have been. When there was people dunking on Nickelback, I was like, Nickelback sick. You just don't get it, right? Like riffs, big fucking riffs. Now there's this thing. country where like country's getting a bit heavy yeah and now all of a sudden everyone's like

yeah nickel back i was like where were you yeah you know i was i've always told that um we have a really um a really vocal contingent of nickelback lover fans like real real mega fans yeah and they always leap to our defense on social media and i would you know whenever possible i just say guys you don't have to do that yeah you don't have to take this we we you know don't bring it on yourself I don't even get it either as well, because it's not like, I think it's gone now. I'm thinking more like mid-2000s. You can correct me if I'm wrong. Yeah, it was.

And it was the training ground for cyberbullying. Everybody was learning how to pick on people online. And we got to be patient zero of cyber bullying on social media. It's just, you know, it's okay. It sucked. But it turns out it's sort of, it was the trial run of what would become sort of how things were. how the world is. But also, like, you never dipped in success. So it's just like a proof of the internet's not real. Frankly, man, if I look at the trajectory of our career versus the

hater sphere, I don't want the hater sphere to stop because we have never done as well as we did when everybody hated us. So now that people are starting to try to like us, you know, I don't care one way or the other people fucking think. But now that people are starting to like because I'm worried our career might be over. I hope not. Please continue to hate us. I mean, that's real funny because I was thinking about this the other day

with like any band who or anyone ever, right? I'm even seeing like obviously, I'm not the 350 first artist on Spotify. I mean me with the podcast, not stray. Like, the bigger it gets or the more people absolutely fucking hate me, the better I'm doing.

And I'm like, it's insane. And I think about like bands like bring me in horizon as well. Like I remember like five, five to eight years of like, it seemed everyone who you talked to hated that band, but they were the biggest band in the fucking world. I know music is a very emotional thing for people. I get that.

But it also exposes a real weakness in the human condition that we'd much rather talk about the things we don't like than the things that we do like. The fact that humanity really has a real, addiction to negativity. Yeah. Really like negativity. Really like to see people get hurt.

Especially people that are successful and doing well. We want to see them go down the hardest. That's, and it, you know, like the royal family. You know, these people catch cancer and it doesn't find,

that's all anybody wants to talk about. It's like, somebody gets killed and it's like, this is great news. Like, what the fuck is wrong? It's only on the internet as well. You're not like hanging out with anyone in real life and they're like,

hey, do you hear about this? sick bit of cancer. It's like, ah, no. It's fucking insane. It's very Roman in nature. I don't see it stopping no as well because we get off me in a second, but like I notice it with podcast clips and I refuse to do it. And for this reason, my trajectory on the podcast has been very, very slow because it's like, I do the episode and I have X amount of clips, like eight clips, and one of them is slightly inflammatory. Yeah. And I know if I post that one, the episode goes crazy. Yeah.

but I don't like being the guy that started all the fights, so I just don't do it. But a couple of times when I haven't even realized, like, I'll just put it up. And the comments are just crazy. And I'll just get comments days and days. And unfortunately, that, like, drives my ad revenue.

And it drives more sponsors to the podcast. So I hold my hands up and I just don't do it because I don't want to be, I don't want that to be my fucking lame word, but like legacy or whatever, like the guy that just riled everyone up on the internet. But you can see why people do it. This is not a question.

Troll culture is very profitable. I mean, people have gotten into elected office with it. You know, it works. Yeah. If you want to generate interest, it doesn't have to be positive.

And the negative interest actually sells better. Oh, it's so bad. This is depressing. Let's get off this. Let's get off the subject. Well, it's humanity, right? Like we,

I say it's a Roman because it is. You know, when you look back at the, you know, the activities and the, Coliseum in Rome that they weren't going there to see somebody win you know they wanted to they wanted to see people die and we're no different now we love to watch people die it's it's just in a you know in a more cowardly way we don't want to actually see it happen the thing is though I feel like I would have went in Roman times everybody would everybody did kind of like because it's not

you getting eviscerated in front of everybody it's the same thing it's like all the same psychology, man. It's right down to what humans, how humans are wired. Fuck. What, we can talk about that for fucking two hours. Forever. So let's not. Let's talk about how did you get into music? We were growing up. There was just a lot of music around long before we ever thought about playing, picking up an instrument at all, didn't even know it was really a possibility. We were listening to tons of music. Our mother was a really big music fan. She was also a dance instructor. And she liked the rock. So, There was Queen, there was Aba, there was Led Zeppelin, there was the Beegeys, there was all kinds of, Boni M during the, you know, during the disco era.

It was all kinds of stuff. And I remember hearing everything, the Beatles were, you know, my mom had pictures of the Beatles and I think every room. You know, so we were, we were exposed to all that. I remember sitting down, you know, and this is going to date me, whatever. You've already said you're 50 and you're Brian. I'm a 51 and then turn in 52 soon so I don't give them a fuck anymore. You're good, bro. You're good.

Thanks, man. You know, we do what we can. Yeah. I remember sitting in front of a record player in my mom's living room and she had these great big speakers that were fucking super loud. But they would be watching television and I just wanted to listen. So I would get headphones not unlike these and sit down and just listen to deafeningly level like so fucking loud LPs.

I remember my ears hurting sometimes just from because I wanted it so loud. My grandmother grew up in a family that was a family band, you know, on the prairies in Canada. And so everybody had to play an instrument because otherwise you wouldn't have music in the house because that was the only way to do it.

This is like, you know, depression. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, so if you wanted music at a dance, everybody had to play something or the music wouldn't happen. Fast forward to, you know, when we're little kids, my grandmother's a drummer in a big band kind of band.

Fuck, yeah. And my grandfathers played the bass in that group and sang backgrounds. So we would go and my grandfather's in the government in Alberta, actually. And it was a government band, the Tory blue notes they were called. And we would go watch them play

and not, you know, thinking much of it. Fast forward a little longer. Our mother insists that we both take piano lessons. Not to prepare us for a career music or anything like that. You just got to do it. You want a guitar? No, you got to take piano lessons.

It's important to take piano. And, you know, geez, I can't thank her enough for that. I mean, it's fucking great advice, but I can imagine maybe at the time being like,

I want to play guitar. I wanted to go play. I just wanted to go play. Yeah. You know, this is when we're like 12. You know, you want to go outside and,

you know play guns with your friends or whatever you know just play and there we were getting bashed around you know with the with the yardstick because we weren't reading you know well enough and and and and and and then at a point when chad was 13 years old um and and and and then at a point when chad was 13 years old um and i would be 15 he just he really we really um enjoyed hard rock groups like Metallica, like Megadeth, like things like that. And I think there was a moment that crystallized for both of us when we went to see Metallica play on the, and Justice for All Tour.

I'm so jealous. In Calgary. Crazy. Oh, I'll never forget the experience. But I'll also never forget if the cult had played before, the cult was playing support. And they were viciously fucking abused by the Metallica fans. Really?

Oh, fuck. They hate, the entire floor turned their back on the cult. while they played their whole set. Ian Asprey jumped into the audience and fought a guy. That's kind of sick. It was, oh yeah, I fucking, hats off to him. We're back in Rome. Yes, but their fan base wasn't kind to opening artists.

But I remember watching the cult, and I remember watching Metallica and just going, those are just guys. You know, their personas built and the, you know, the archetype of the rock star. And you stand this way and you say, this way and you look this way. But I was like, I kind of saw through all that shit.

And I just thought, those are just guys. Maybe I want to try that, you know? And Chad, I felt the same thing. And so shortly after that, he got himself a guitar. And I just started playing my grandfather's bass because no one wanted to play bass. Everybody wanted to play guitar and drums. Yeah.

Nobody wanted to play bass. And I was like, well, I'll try it. And I just felt it, man. I'm not that, I'm not that bass player that just couldn't cut it guitar. I don't really like guitar. I didn't feel the drums enough on guitar. I feel like I'd play bass if I didn't play drums. I think you would. I think you would. It's so much more of a rhythmic thing. And to me, and to the discord in a lot of my friends, you know, I'll hear a lot of the things that I like to listen to are rhythmically bass, like the band Mushugah for instance.

Yeah. Everybody is playing rhythm in that band. Everybody. Everyone's playing a bass, pretty much. Pretty much. You know, I mean, but it's, and there are melodies. Of course there are, like, you know, Frederick, come on. Like, there's melody there.

But what makes it go is rhythm. And all the other things that I loved were rhythmically based. And so there's a lot of stuff, you know, a lot of canon music. You know, there's a lot of Beatles stuff that to me, you just, I kind of passed on it when I was younger and more aggressive because I was like, eh, he's not hitting hard enough. You know, like it's just, it's not enough, you know, rhythmic drive there. The violence, it's violence. You know, it just wasn't there and I wanted more violence.

So we just started playing. In the small town we were in, there were a lot of musicians per capita. There's like three rock bands in that town of 1900 people or 20,000. 9900 people, pardon me. That is a small town. Oh yeah, real small. And it was the big town in the area. That's crazy.

So we would play in a garage sense and learn cover music and just had a great time, just loved it. And then graduated to play in the more lowbrow bar in town. Nice. And then graduated from there to playing the bar to play out in town, which, you know, arguably they're all the same. And it just went from there, really. And is this as Nickelback or is this like...

No, this was just as kids in, you know, middle school and high school. Whatever band. Yeah, just playing. Did you come up with a name, Nicolbach? Did I make that up? I did. That's one of your rumors that's true. We had a rumor earlier that you got brain surgery listening to Stray.

How the fuck did I hear that? Believe it me, if I book brain surgery, I'll be listening to Stray. Don't worry about that for sure. It's a done deal, but it's in the future, not the past. Please don't get it. I mean, get it if you need it. I probably will at some point. You know, don't jinx it.

Everything else is, it needs maintenance, so you never know. Give me the nickel back story. It is that story of the working in the coffee shop, making change for people. I don't actually know the story. Oh, you don't know this one. Oh, fuck, okay. This is the thing. Like, I don't know anything.

Cool. I never know anything. And there'll be people watching this who don't know anything. So I'm sorry if you've been asked that five hundred times. Yeah. It's the one. Everyone's watching their head. Oh, we all know that answer.

Infinite. You didn't know about the surgeries, did you? Yeah, infinitum. I've answered this one. I worked at, a coffee shop and at that time the most popular coffee drink cost a dollar 45 and I would get this entire office building from this company BC tell the British Columbia telephone company they would all come for coffee at once like a hundred of them or whatever and they would all pay me with a dollar 50 so I would

give them five cents or a nickel back and I was saying okay here's your nickel back here's your nickelback and here's your nickelback and then we're really dying for a fucking band name right now maybe this that's kind of rolls and it didn't mean anything to me because I didn't know anything about American football and apparently that's some kind of play set up oh see I don't know that I yeah I did fuck I still don't even know what it really means it to me it was just these syllables that kind of rolled off the tongue okay and and we were dying for a band name at the time and it was the best one so far Do you remember any of the other ones that were in the running?

I prefer not to mention them because I feel like there are further indictment on us, you know. No, really uninspired things. Rock gods. God's of rock. It was just things that weren't even given a meeting. You can't give me one. You can't give me one. Well, on our first demos, we wrote the name of the band, Brick.

That's hard. I like that. It's hard and heavy, right? And then we were playing, you know, pretty rock-based stuff in the very, very beginning. I don't think you'd be playing the hydro called Brick, though. It's a fucking great name for like a hardcore band. At a point, the name of the band becomes less and less relevant, doesn't it? Yeah, I mean, there are some insane band name.

Yeah, and ridiculous and stupid ones. What does Primus mean? I have no idea, but what is it? You know, it's just what it is, right? It's fucking awesome. The name is now no longer a descriptor. It's an identifier. It doesn't, you know, it doesn't...

Nickelback's a great name, though. And now the story with it's great. Brick, I'm stealing Brick, but I'm going to start like a, just a beat down a hardcore band called Brick. It's fucking awesome. Do it. Oh, man, I'm fucked. I'm absolutely.

You can hear it. My voice doesn't sound like it. What have you got? Some kind of sinus infection. Oh. Bullshit. Oh, fuck. I hate it.

It's what kept me off the mats. I flew in to England four days before everybody else because I was going to go train jujitsu with hodgea gracie um and as a result of this bullshit uh i laid around the cafe ryle fucking four days i have i don't know if it's i'm about to have speaking of surgeries i'm about to have surgery on like of my left i got a deviated septa i do too yeah we're related well it's it's it's from not keeping your hands up enough honestly it was from a football accident where i got kicked in the fucking nose like real fucking bad i'm waiting to have surgery from it but I just get sinus infections all the time.

I do too. And I don't know if I have that because I had an ENT look at me a little while ago. And, you know, she said, yeah, you get a slightly deviated septum, but it's no big deal. I think I'm going to go back and talk to her. So I did exactly that. How weird is this? I did exactly that. And they were like, yeah, it's no big deal.

And then I went to a second opinion. And the guy said it's the most deviated septum I've ever seen. That's the fucking scale. So definitely go get a second opinion. Yeah. Because I'm on the waiting. Because I can like, you know how you. crack your knuckles. That's what happens

on my nose if I push it to the side. It crunches. I can't do that, but I can if I just go, I can breathe perfectly. If I just push on it and if I don't, it fucking closes up. Fuck me. If you're just listening to the audio I just sniff the fucking microphone.

It looked like a scene from a guy richie film. Yeah, look like me fucking the nickelback party. Sometimes it looks like you buy. Yeah you could get the wrong idea I got straight straight into that

actual question though like do you like let loose on tour not anything anyone was thinking on but like do you drink I stopped drinking about nine or ten years ago fuck yeah good for you yeah you know um you would think that when one has a you know

mortal level stroke uh that they would stop drinking from that. Is that what happened? It isn't because I'm an idiot. What happened was, is I had the stroke and I recovered. Again, it's kind of akin

to all these other physical fucking things. I was telling you, I felt great, so I just went back to normal life of, you know, not, I have, when I grew up,

I was wild. So I would blackout drink when I was younger. So as a result, I woke up in a hospital when I was 19 from drink because I didn't get hangovers. So I could drink for fucking weeks.

Yeah, it lights out. And then I woke up, I had a grandma seizure and I woke up in a hospital at age 19 and I quit drinking until I was 28. So all my 20s, you know, I probably wouldn't be here if that didn't happen. Yeah. I probably would have found the edge and went over it. I went from 28 to about 42. Well, I had the stroke at 41. So about 44, it was when I kind of figured it out. You know, I was like, I don't. 20 years of yeah 15 years back in the game or whatever you call it and is that height of nickel back success as well i mean part part part of it you know it was through part of it yeah i just stopped doing that and you know i i've heard it called um california sober oh yeah yeah i know so many people yeah you know i i i don't smoke i i can't i i smoke cigarettes for a long long time when i was younger and i don't like to i don't like the way it feels when i smoke so i don't like to smoke but i do really like to eat marijuana. It's cool. I can't handle it. My brain is too psycho. Well, mine is too. That's why I only do it when I'm going to go to sleep. Because if I do it and stay awake,

it's not very good. Yeah. It's not a good time for me. You know, so I use it as a sleep aid, actually. But that's the extent, you know, I might, I might eat some stuff and have a few laughs and then go to bed, but I don't like let loose like that. Does your California sober include mushrooms in a legal state? Only in a legal state. Yes. Yes. In a legal state, I fucking love mushrooms.

I've never hit the heroic dose before. Still, never have. I've never tripped. But the micro dose experience has changed me in a good way. My tolerance is very low and I intend to keep it there. So I'll take like between 250 and 350 with my morning coffee and then just go about my life. Yeah. Like go to jiu-jitzy.

class and for me in jiu-sit-soo class it changed it's that's where I realized there were some really big changes going on in my mind was I would take it have my morning coffee go to jiu-sitsu class and I'd be learning a technique and go I wonder what would happen if I was upside down when I did just connect the dots you just start to think in a global way instead of a linear way you know and and that's been really good for me I had a similar thing when like with anxiety like of that anxiety in my whole life. And then I had one. See,

I've done a heroic dose before and it was horrible. Like I had a really bad time. But there's a company called Silo in the States. And they do the gummies. And they give you like, I think a bag is like three and a half grams. But each gummy is like a 100 milligram like a micro dose thing. Yeah.

Perfect thing. And on tour, me and Dragon and Carbassus were like just fucking do them and just hang out on the bus or whatever. And there was this one time I've had anxiety my whole fucking life. And there was this one time, like, must stress, it was a micro dose. Because if you've got anxiety and you do a heroic dose, it goes fucking wrong most of the time. Sure.

I was in my bunk and I started having an anxious thought. And then my brain just pieced together. It was just like, well, this is why you're thinking this. And it was because of this back in the past, blah, blah, blah. You don't actually have to worry about that. And it was like a fucking switch went off in my brain. It was the craziest thing. The person that gave me my first experience with microdose psilocybin told me that the reason it was really important for me to do it was because of his experience.

And his experience was he had an anxiety condition, ADHD, ADD, and he said it got him off of Adderall. Wow. He did a course of like five days and no more Adderall. And he doesn't need it anymore. His anxiety condition is gone. Yeah, there's some crazy stuff. I just, I couldn't discount it. I had to try it.

And it changes, it just changes how I listen to music as well. Oh, yeah, big time. I go from listening to things, you know, violent, horrible things that I love. Mastray being one of them. I don't listen to stray when I'm on mushrooms. You know, what I listen to on mushrooms is like, you know who Mad Professor is? No.

He's a dub, like a... Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Electronic dub reggae artist. The biggest smoothest bass you can imagine. And when you're just in that smooth space... Yeah, yeah. In your mind, that's all I want to hear. Fuck, yeah.

I want to hear nothing over like 250 hertz. Just boom boom, boom, boom. That's all I want to hear. all I want. I've never done it with, I've always thought about when learning parts and stuff, I was like, I could probably benefit from like a microdose, but I'm terrified of the drive to get to the studio and get back because my dorms are somewhere else. And it's like, I don't know, I've never like, you've never driven on a microdose? No. I find it's really easy. I think maybe I'm taking not microdose. I think that could be your problem. You know, if you've got fucking

dragons and Pegasai jumping in front of your car, you probably are taking a little too much. But no, I take a microdose and I drive myself to jiu-jitsu class and have these mind awakenings that obviously can't explain to anybody there. Yeah. You're just annihilating them. I'm like, why is he so good? It's actually, it's the opposite. It's like that it's such a fucking cliche, but you start to feel like water. And in jiu-jitsu is really important to not be rigid.

And if something pushes on you, let it push on you. You know, don't push back. Let it push on you and then go from there. You know what I mean? And that has really been affected by this where it's like, okay, you're stronger than me. Okay. Yeah. Okay.

All right. You know, it's very philosophical. In an uncomfortable situation, but I can still breathe. I'm still very conscious here. Why is it uncomfortable? See, I didn't know that. I don't know anything about you. so is that why everyone loves it?

Because that appeals to me. You would love it. You would get hooked on it in the best way. Yeah, I feel like I would. And the thing about it is, is it, you know, it's not a team sport. You're in a team and you're with people and everybody wants, I shouldn't say everybody.

If you're in a right school, in a good school, everybody wants you to succeed and grow and get better. And when you start to challenge your mentors, they're not like, fuck this guy and you stomp you out. It's more like, wow, wow, that's really good. You're getting, you're getting better. And everybody's lifting each other up. So it's kind of a, it's like an emotional team sport, but it's an individual pursuit.

But you're not in competition with your opponent. You're in competition with yourself. Yeah. Because your opponent is just a reflection of how good you are. So if your opponent can best you, there's things that you got to work on. It's not about them. It's about you. It's like fucking chess.

It is human chess. Human chess. It is. I'm in. Sign me up. Glasgow, if anyone's got a school, I'm in. I haven't got any time for more hobbies, but give me one more. This one will fucking ruin your life.

That's one thing I'll tell you. Because you'll drop other things. Well, if I ruin my fucking hip, it will ruin my life. Don't play the fucking drums. Well, that, and then that's another reality of Jiu-Jitsu. Like when I talk to people about it and they're thinking about getting into it, and they're like, well, you know, do you think I'll get injured? and, you know, I was like, if anybody says, no, they're lying.

Yeah. You're going to get hurt. You just are. You are. You're going to go places you've never gone physically. Things happen. The human anatomy, the whole point is to take human anatomy where it doesn't want to be. That's the whole idea.

You want to try to take joints the wrong way so the person submits or the joint breaks. Yeah. You want to choke them so the blood leaves their brain. And if they don't tap, they go unconscious. You see what I mean? And so naturally, when you're taking the human body where it doesn't want to naturally go, there can be side effects. Yeah. But you get to a point where other people don't hurt you, you hurt you.

Yeah. And, you know, that's a real breakthrough. And the risk to reward is kind of what makes that kind of stuff fun, isn't it? Like a little bit of fear in there. Oh, yeah. It's a unique, it's a unique human condition to have a colleague. lay on your face or sweat in your mouth. It's and and you know, everybody, you know, you tell that to people and, you know, people

listening here or watching here, which is that is fucking lunacy. But all the jiu-jitsu people are sitting out there going, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's what I'm on my way to class right now. That's what it's going to be. Do you ever like, because a lot of people in bands do it. Yeah. You ever like roll with like if you're on tour with someone else and they do it?

Do you roll on the mat together or? I would. It just hasn't occurred yet. Who else is on this tour? We're traveling with a band from outside Manchester called Lottery Winners. They're very small band. They're not super, super well known. But the way we got to find them was there was a period in time where everybody was doing a sea shanty of everything.

Oh, yeah. And these cats did a sea shanty clip of rock star. I remember it. And somebody sent it to us. It was like, holy shit, look at this. It was our man who's here. Bradley. he found it and he said look at this you know what do you guys think should we get involved like

you know let's reach out to them and talk and then we redid the song in C shanty style and made a video of it and they're just the just lovely people that's so cool that like a band of your size can just still just I mean I guess it comes with being that size but you can just like pick a band and go I like these guys come and play an arena with us well they'll take your call now you know that's the thing is we reached out to plenty of bands in the past and they just don't get back to you. Really? Now people do when we've done well. I mean, you've done well for like 20 years.

Yeah, but I remember what it's like when people didn't take our calls. Wait, what, hang on, what years are we talking here? I'm shook here. Like, silver side up. Well, like the early, like the late 90s, early 2000s still when, you know, everybody wasn't sure if it was just a fluke. Have you got beef with that anymore? No. No, no, no.

Look in that camera and fucking call someone out. Me and you on the map. I thought maybe there's a band in your head. I was like, no, you know what, man? No, because, okay, so. Ah, some beef. No, no, not bad. I was going to explain myself a little bit.

Okay. So, you know, not to get too dark or whatever, but when you experience a near that death experience, when you live through something like that and you reach the edge of your mortality and you come back, there's a lot of things you just don't do anymore. I don't hold grudges anymore. I don't make long-term plans.

I don't say no as much as I used to say no. For instance, the surprise about seeing you on this, I don't ask a lot of fucking questions anymore. Like, do you want to do an interview? Yeah. Sick. I don't.

It's not, well, who is it? What's his listenership? You know, it's like, ooh, what can I get it? I just say yes to things. I don't hold grudges. Try to dismiss negative thoughts.

I don't like to have them. in the spirit of this kind of stream of thought a lot of people could consider this a negative thought talking about mortality yeah you know and and the fragility and you know everybody's going to die sorry to spoil it um but you know that that's the it's not a negative it's not heavy and uncomfortable it's reality this is this is where we are and this is where we're going we're all going the same place sorry again um you know i just listened to a podcast with Ray Kurzweil, he has a little bit of a different perspective, which is that people are going to get to the point where they live forever.

Until that happens, we should be really well in touch with our mortality. I mean, we'd be fucked if that happens. There'd be no space. I don't understand how there's room for humanity when there's no death anymore. Wow. That might be the most fucking poignant thing anyone's ever said on the podcast. What's the point of all of this if it just never ends? If it, what's to make any day special every hour is just another fucking zero turning into a one.

Yeah. It's more, it's more for rich people living forever, addicted to power and money. I think. But that, the shine of that wears off fast. I'll get some new, I'll get some, invent some crazy hobbies. Bring back the gladiators. Well, I mean, they already have. And that, and that's, and that's, you know, not, jiu-jitsu is like veganism.

I'm sure you've heard like, yeah. Yeah. It's all they talk about. And there is a massive, I know, a load of vegans that are also jiu-jitsu. Sure. Ultimate unbearable people. Well, you're in two cults at the same time. I love you.

Awesome. Yeah, right. Yeah. Don't kill me. No, it, but it's a thing like a martial art, it strips away all those layers of, ooh, that's uncomfortable. Ooh, that feels too real. And it's like, yeah, fucking A, I'm going to try and choke you.

Yes. I'm going to try to break your arm. This is as real as we can be, you know, in your corporate form. And so much of our life right now is so divorced from that. Like you actually, with intent, put your hands on somebody and 90% of people, it's like, what the fuck? You know, you're just a bag of meat walking through the universe. Big deal.

I think I'm in on jiu-jitsu. I'm in. I think you'd like it. I think you'd like it. You just make sure you find people. people that you can trust. See, the issue is being an Englishman in Scotland, everyone's going to want to kick my ass. I'm going to be number one, enemy number one.

And there's going to be a while where it's going to be pure unbridled violence. When you're a white belt, that's just what that is. You're fighting. I give Moy Thai for a while. Okay, okay. I actually had to stop because it didn't matter how hard I wrapped my hands. I couldn't fucking play the drums afterwards. It was like, I guess I may be after a year, like all the micro fractures and stuff.

Maybe after a year I'd have been fine, but I just couldn't work. It was just, I loved it, but I couldn't work. I've trained plenty of moitai. And one of the reasons why I'm a little hesitant to go back is there's kind of this unspoken understanding in moitai that you, you're going to, every day you train, you're going to accept damage. Not insignificant damage. You're going to accept some real damage.

Like, I have seen injuries in the moitai gym that I've never seen. in Jiu-Jitsu. Like, I've never seen an ambulance at a jiu-jitsu class. Moitai, yes. I signed up to this moitai school in Reading when I was back there. And it was insane. Like the main guy in the gym, the young, there was old guy, old like, I don't want to get it wrong. Old Serbian guy that was running it. Like, psycho. Legend, sounds about a fucking legend, but an absolute fucking psycho. Yeah. And like they had their prize guy in the gym who was the guy that was going out and doing the fights or whatever. So we'd all train together.

And one day there was a fight and the guy missed weight. And they thought it was because he'd been fucking juicing or something or I just fucking. Right. And he was over his weight. Yeah. Because there was a massive fucking screaming match between the two of them. And then the class starts and he stood with the guy. the fucking coach or whatever is stood with with the main guy just because that's where they were having the shouting match and he's like okay so today what we're going to do and he turns around and punches the guy that missed the weight as hard as you fucking can in the stomach without any any kind of like warning wins him obviously yeah that was the day's lesson was he was like okay what are you're going to do you're going to go away in pairs you're going to punch each other in the stomach until one of you says something you're going to say

stop. It's like that was like maybe fucking my fourth lesson. I was like, okay, this is this. It's pretty aggressive, you know, and it's like the definition of the word dichotomy, because Thai people are some of the most gentle, caring, they'll take care of you, but they'll fucking remove your head first. Like they, you know, they'll pick you up. Oh, are you okay? Are you all right? But yeah, but they'll crack you with an elbow first. You know what I mean? Like they really, it's this really unusual dichotomy of gentleness and just, savage violence. Yeah.

Just, just unspeakable violence. I kind of loved it, but I just couldn't do it. I love the exercise element of it. Yeah. The workout is so good. I got so ripped.

Puddles is fucking sweat. Yeah. You're standing in a puddle of your own sweat. And just in their warm up, it's fantastic. I got ripped. I got calves for the first time in my life because you're always up on your fucking toes.

Like, it was so sick. And I would love to do it again. But I tried, even just training myself with like a heavy bag. Yeah. Play the drums after. You need some pretty serious articulation of your digits. And that's one thing that if you do go to Jiu-Jitsu, my brother, you must get grabs.

I have them in the van in my bag, but they are a product that some guys came up with that it organizes your fingers into pairs. So these two are wrapped together in this lycra, kind of like a Lycra sheet. A spock glove. Yes. It is indeed a spock glove. the but what happens is is if your pinkies free I don't know how many times I can't even tell you how many times I've fucked my pinkies up so two together just like two small sticks are easily broken two together or infinitely stronger

it's the same thing with your fingers doesn't affect motion or or function in any way yeah but it protects you you need that is it frowned upon by the other people no no no oh that's cool because it's to me it sounds like when a kid comes in and they've got like fucking... Oh no. No, it's not that. I was going to get bullied for coming in with the fucking lobster claws. The thing about it is is that, yeah, they call them the black lot. I got one black belt calls them the black lobster claws all the time.

But the thing about it is, is that it doesn't give you any unfair advantage. Because you don't use independent fingers in this game. Like to just take one finger from somebody is totally illegal. You're not allowed to do that anyway. That's more like street style jiu-jitsu. you know, where you're just trying to break people. Yeah. You know, instantly break people.

So you're not allowed to just take one finger. Okay, I'm sold. I'm still in. I'm still in on the Judiciary. All right. Yeah. And then next time you come. Well,

the mats are at the arena right now. It's a good arena for, like, having a hobby. There's so many rooms in that place. Yeah. I fucking love it. Yeah, I've got one of them.

When's the last time you played a small show? You just arenas everywhere now. Yeah, or bigger, like, like, festival kind of things. And do you miss it? I miss how they sound. you know a smaller room with uh with a quality um pa system and a really good engineer operating it

the sound pressure levels that are available like when i saw you guys in in l a it's fucking awesome you sound it's so fucking good and and in the smaller rooms it just stays thicker yeah i love the sound like when you're outside it just the sound pressure levels especially the low end which is what makes me go. It just dissipates. And it's the same in, I mean, an arena, luckily I have a really great sound man who's really, he plays a high importance upon people feeling what I do and feeling the bass drum. So we make sure that happens, but it's hard to do. You know, it is hard to. I think the last time we played a small place was we had a private gig that we got, um, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, to do for the Super Bowl in Los Angeles a couple years ago, two years ago, one or two years

ago. Wait, so it wasn't at the Super Bowl? No, no, it was just a party. A small gig was the Super Bowl. The fee was Super Bowl-sized. The club was, I think there was 150 people there. Oh, sick. Yeah. It was this place called the peppermint club right in Beverly, what's called Beverly Grove? really grove yeah right there yeah okay that's not 250 people yeah uh if that yeah it was like just a group of friends with the super bowl guarantee yes how much is that ahead yeah yeah they're all the tickets for free you know what i mean well these are people that when they go to a sports game they bring a golf stream jet so you know or or more than one that's crazy because like respectfully you're incredibly down to earth you're maybe the most successful person has ever sat in that year

You think so? Yeah. I guess it depends on what your version or your definition of success is. Platinum Records plus money. Okay. I didn't have any. I suppose I could be. I don't.

You seem like you don't care. I don't care. But I just think it's interesting that you don't have the fucking, you live in L.A. now, but you don't have. Look at me. You know.

Oh, fuck yeah. But you don't, you don't have. Yeah, but you don't give off that. I wouldn't have noticed that. No. I just,

I like them. Like I like expensive things. I'm not going to lie. I love guns. Love them. I love watches. They both fulfill the same, they both scratch the same itch for me.

Mechanical, precision, and beauty that require nothing. They require no energy source. They're their own energy source like this. It just moves and it winds itself. And it's happily going to keep going until I'm in the ground. No problem. Guns, same thing. We have an EMP attack.

Your phone's dead. Your security system's out. Your phone, your telecommunications, the internet's gone. You know, it works? Guns. Have you got a gun room? Have you got one of those fucking, one of those fucking peep, beep, beep, bit.

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And so, no, I don't have the John Wick fucking the Continental review. I shoot with the

team. Those are my people. Tarrant Tactical. That's the place where Keanu Reeves learned to

be juggling. That's my shooting coach, yes. Coach is that's the happiest place in the world. I think guns are cool. I think my line is normal people buying automatic weapons. I'm like, you don't fucking need that. I still think it's cool. I don't personally

believe you need that. I don't personally believe you do. In the United States, you can get a permit to have them in a collector's sense. You don't take... I know people with AR-15s and I'm like, you don't need that. I look at it and I go, that's kind of sick. I have an AR-15. It's a semi-aut. weapon. Oh, wait, that's not even an automatic. No. No, no, it's one squeeze, one round. And

I thought it was or not. I thought that was why everyone kicks off about the AR. So don't you think that there's a little misinformation. There is. Look at me. I'm misinformed. But it's, but what people don't know is what informs a lot of very vociferous opinions. We've just informed people. AK-47, no, AR-15, yes. Well, even an AK-K can be. operated, you can buy AKs in California. You can buy an AKs. Yes, but it's semi-automatic. It's not what they call select fire, where you can switch to either a three-round burst in some cases or fully automatic.

It's not select fire. That's totally illegal in California in most states. You can get a permit for it if you're a collector or in the case of my beloved coach, Taryn Butler, he has a special permit because he teaches actors how to learn on them. So when they're shooting a film, they look like they know what they're doing. That's cool. Your average person can't get an automatic weapon. Yeah.

And, you know, good. Yeah. Because mistakes happen too. You know, even aside from anything else, if you make a mistake with a single shot, that can be really bad. That can be the end of it. If you make a mistake with a fully loaded magazine with an automatic weapon. Yeah.

A big fucking mistake. You know, scores of people, you know, and that's a big problem. And I understand that. I do understand the restriction there. And I also understand the grades of self-defense. But at its core, my issue is I want to be able to defend my home and my family. Yeah. And we, in this country, we banned handguns after someone shot up a school.

Yes. And we did have no more school shootings. Right. Can't still get a gun, though. Especially in Glasgow. You can fucking get a gun in Glasgow. Oh, yeah. Easy.

We could go get one right now. I want to ask something because I ask everyone. Yeah. You don't have to go super in-depth or you can go in-depth. And then I want to ask you what your top five artists of all-time are. Fuck. But what I want to know is, because I ask everyone, especially, and I love it with the varying degrees of how big a band is. I'm still trying to sort out my top.

Yeah, no, that's fine. Just keep that going. Very hard. We can do that. Okay. How does Nicol back write a song? Like, what's the process of writing a song? Process.

Sorry. I'm from Canada. We see process there. Oh, do you? Yeah, we do. Let's fucking go. Process, process. Sorry.

Sorry. You know, whatever. Fuck. It's a lot of Canada. It's my people. Yeah. Yeah. We are your people.

They are your people. It's changed, to be honest with you. I actually read a passage from Stuart Copeland's book that he did not too too long ago. Well, probably actually quite long ago. Where he said that in the beginning of the police, somebody would come in with a riff or a bit or, you know, song fragment and they would flesh out an entire song based on that together. And then after a while, as Gordon became better and better songwriting, there was less and less for the other two fellows to do in the writing process until they got to a point where Sting would just come in and be like, take a listen, guys, it's done to play the parts. that's us.

That's where it's gotten to. Because Chad has become very, very, he's developed a very high level of facility of songwriting. Still needs a muse. Like, he still needs someone to be there, but he doesn't need someone to help him write the song anymore. Yeah.

I mean, and the hits don't lie. Like it works. Oh, no, he's very good at it. With fucking sting as well. Like, I would take that.

If someone could do my shit better than me, fucking please do it. But they can't. It's pretty cool. you know um to to especially as his older brother it's been an interesting journey because as an older brother you just by default take your younger sibling lightly just out of the gate you know without prejudice that's just how it works yeah and so in the beginning and you know he doesn't know blah blah blah you know whatever and then after a while it's like holy fuck he he's really good at this like he you know he's

He's good at this. And then after a while, I was like, I think he's one of the best ones at this, actually. Like, he's doing this better than a lot of people. He's 351st, at least. The guys just got it. You know, he's a really great storyteller. He comes at it from so many different angles. He's a metal head like us.

He also likes classic rock. He likes pop. He has, there's so many elements to this guy. I don't know about God-given gifts, but I'd say that this is the closest thing I can, I could testify is he's, and he's taken a God-given gift and then developed it and refined it and perfected his version of it to a level that I still am amazed by. So past the gods. It's, he's, being around.

him in the studio when he's writing things, it's weird. It's weird. But just how good it is. When it's on, creativity just flows out of them. It's like that story about, you know, John and Paul back in the day they go, hey, let's get a cup of tea and go write a house in the south of France. Yeah. You know, just go right a, you know, mega hit right now. if you give my brother even a remote topic and just say hey write a song about this he will write a song about that but it won't be like a soap jingle you know it's not a throwaway it's a fucking that's real do you have a fight brotherly fights we we did we have never fist the cuffs ever I've been to the point where I had it ready, but I didn't.

And I've never, I've never struck him in anger. And likewise him to me. We've argued plenty being an event, it's being an event. And being an brother. And being brothers, right? This long. But again, coming back to that dark topic of, you know, that event that happened to me almost 10 years ago where I, I was nearly killed by my own brain.

You reach a point of acceptance with people, people that you know, people that you don't know, strangers. So it runs, my expectations of other people are, I don't have them anymore. And my acceptance of people is now the highest it's ever been for sure. You know, I don't, I don't want to change anybody anymore, you know, and I have gone through that where I did. because to me weakness is like the most fatal flaw that one can have and I recoil from weakness just because I fear it in myself. So as a result, I don't want to allow anybody else to be weak. That's over now. Hell yeah.

It's a shame it took a fucking catastrophic brain stroke. Yeah, to get a little humanity, right? That's what it took. What's my excuse? I don't want one way over the fucking... I was going to say... No, I don't want it. A best thing that ever happened to me, man.

Oh, fuck, don't say that. I'm sorry it happened, but I'm glad. And I never slept better. Really? Now I could do that. I could do with that. Best sleep I've ever had in my life. Well, after it.

Yeah. When in the left hemisphere, my brain was no longer functioning. Do you actually remember? Like, yes. Do you have a dream? Or it was just like you were conked out? No, I was, I was, under the influence of some really stiff doses of drugs that were at the point where they gave me more,

I'd die because the pain was enormous. But the doctor did tell me after I did scans that the left hemisphere of my brain was entirely disengaged. It wasn't operating anymore. And he said that because of the way that the duality of the human brain is when the left side is no longer operating, the right side is everything. And the right side of the brain is the Dalai Lama brain is what my doctor calls. it and he said negativity criticism cruelty analytical thought is all gone you're not you don't have it and I was like I don't and this was after the I was like I don't I don't have any wait so what's

the state of your brain now is it um that left side is fucking not there I don't know how much of it's back but I still I let's say I redevelop the ability to to be cruel again. You know what I mean? But that negativity and that humanity did return. But now, like you were saying earlier about anxiety, now when I sense those weak emotions, I can almost always I can go, I can catch it and go stop, stop, stop this. Don't stop this. It's like you had a, it's like lobotomies work and you had one. did I did. Fuck. That's fucking crazy.

The trouble is, I have another dear friend who had a near-death experience. He had an a-artor rupture and he had to get rushed in and was just about finished. And he and I spoke about this. We meet on this issue, you know, about, you know, you hear these cliches about live every day like it's your last and blah, blah, blah. You can't stay there. You can't stay there. It's a really special place to be, but you can't.

can't in this world in this life it's not a luxury you can afford you can't you can't live there you can't stay there you got to come back what in the live fast die young mentality or the ultra positive kind Dalai Lama brain that you get oh it comes after something like that yeah you you can't live a life you can't stay there and and it's really hard you got to strive and try, but to stay there is impossible, you know, because this world just isn't, you know, that's the Dodo Bird, right? That's the, that's the Mori-Mori tribe of New Zealand. You hear the story of the Mori-Moris, they ever hear of them? It's in a book called Guns, Germs and Steel talks about how in New Zealand, way back, there was two native peoples. There was the Māoris, who we all

know, and there was the Mori-Moris. And they were separated. they're on separate ends of the island and they didn't really interact for a lot of their history. And then when they did come into contact with each other, the Mori Moris were this. Hunt, like didn't hunt. They were gatherers. They didn't kill anything. They were totally peaceful. They didn't have any violence.

Nothing. The Māori's, as we know. Yeah. You said you played rugby, right? Yeah. Okay. Those guys met with these Mori Mori's that are ultimately peaceful and they're like, oh, here, share. Let's have our things, you know.

Everybody, they're like, they ate them. The Māori's decimated their entire society, their entire culture. That's sad, though. But that's, but what I'm saying is that this is the reality. We're not, we're not a nonviolent species. We're just not. The dodo bird, you know, look at the dodo bird. The big, flightless animal that just walks up.

and just looks at somebody. It's like, huh, it's lunch that easy, bash. And now it's gone. Because this is the, our nature is not peaceful. No,

you've, you've depressed it again. You're right, but it's depressing. It doesn't have to be depressing. It doesn't have to be depressing. It's not like we're going to, see,

I'd like to believe that if you went to a tribe and they went to have all our stuff, they would go, oh, thanks, bro. But I know it's not the case. No, because it was like, well, how easy was it to get them to just give it to us?

How easy will it be, to just take the rest. Where'd you draw the line, though? You've got to be kind and nice. I have to be. I need to be kind, but I have to realize I don't live in a kind world.

You see, this is the thing. I was talking to a friend of mine about guns. He lives in Chicago. He's like, do you really want to live in a world where you need to carry a gun? I was like, first, there's two things here.

First, you live in Chicago. Bro, there's a mass shooting every weekend in your town, okay? So there's that. Number two is, is, I hear, I hear you. I hear you. You don't want to live in a world where you need to carry a gun. But let me offer you this choice. Do you want to live in the world? Are you choosing to live in the world you want to live in? Or are you living in the world that you are living in. Yeah. Because it would be really nice. When a guy kicks your fucking door down and sticks a gun in your mouth, wouldn't it be nice to just go, oh, I really wish I didn't live in this world right now? I mean, it would be nice.

if the guy didn't kick the door down. Of course. That would be the greatest. Then we wouldn't need any of this stuff. Yeah. I think that's where I am. I'm probably where like your friend is, where I'm like,

I want to believe it doesn't have to happen. But I also know it is happening. We have the capacity to be kind and considerate and forgiving people. And we also have the capacity to be just unspeakably evil. We need to give everyone the brain stroke at the same time. Everyone on earth.

And then we start from there. Well, no, then the entire species dies off. Because you realize that sunflowers have a consciousness. And you need physical therapy. And your physical therapist has had a brain stroke. You can't eat anything. You know, so we all die. Okay.

Top five bands. Let's bring it. Let's bring it to a close. Top five bands. You can quick fire this. I'm just interested. Let's say, let's choose top five fringe bands because there's a number, I could tell you a hundred real favorites, but I'll tell you, I'll pick five there out there.

Yeah, pick five bands that no one would think Mike Kroger from Nickelback Likes. Vanilla Fudge. Okay. What they did with that cover of Keep Me Hanging on is enough. Nice. That, that, that's all I need. That, that song, are you? familiar with that? Yeah, yeah, yeah. That is, I can't even, I, I don't have a, you know, I'm,

I mean, that's super fringe. Yeah, I'm trying to be fringe right now. I'm really, being so fringe, you can unfringe it a bit. Typeo negative. Fuck yeah, it's a top three band of all time for me. Fucking just doing something that no one else did and no one else ever did. And no, no one, no one is going to. Because it's not him. Even every other little side, thing, not everyone's like trying to be typo and it's, you know what's interesting. There's not even one like really good, like close. You know what I mean? Like, no. There's Metallica. There's a bunch of bands that are like fucking sick and in the style of Metallica.

Yeah. But there's not a single one because there ain't no Pete. Even Pete outside of that group wasn't that. You know, there's a special thing going on there. Because it's Peter, yes, but there's also a chemistry there with everybody else that yeah it's all if if you did a super group and just took p out you wouldn't make the you can't argue with what what that machine made yeah that's fucking great it's annoying though because there's such it's i mean it's quite a big catalog realistically but it's like i just want more i and i got i literally got into typo negative the day he died because it was like i was a kid and it was like it was a front page of karang and i was like who is this band and i listened to it and i was like oh my

God, it's sick. And that was it. That was too late. Let's see another thing. Fringe me up. Well, I don't know if it's super fringy. I find the Beastie Boys to be something really special to me. Because they took a boundless creativity of using other people's things.

Like Paul's boutique, you know, at that point, I think it still is the most sample heavy recording ever. What they did with those pieces of other people's art is. is in my mind an art form that's untouchable. Yeah. You know, in its and the creativity of those guys just then the skill like, they're good. They opened up a whole legal thing as well,

like the songwriting and royalties, like how much you have to change, how much you can use. Well, and the whole sampling kind of legality came from these guys, right? Yeah. That didn't really exist when they did that. I went there the other day actually where the front cover was shot. No shit. Yeah.

Really? It's literally they've named one of the roads is now, because obviously it's not Pools boutique anymore, but one of the roads is now called, I think it's, it's even named after one of the Beastie Boys, or it's like a Beastie Boys reference is literally the name of the street now.

Wow. Cool. My little New York sight seeing. Okay. Next. You only got two more, and then you can go and roll on your mat. Okay.

Shoot a gun. Yay. There's a guy, classical artist from a few years ago, named Maurice Ravel. Not familiar, but I do love a bit classical. So what Ravel did was he wrote a song that you know. Okay.

But you just don't know, you know it. And it's called Bolero. I know the name. It is a study in dynamics. The piece begins with just a snare drum. Tip, tippy tap, tippy tap, tippy tap, tippy tap, tippy tap, tippy tap, and at the end, after whatever it is, eight or 12 minutes, I don't know. It's just all it does, it's one cycle of music.

that just continually builds in dynamic level. That's cool. And at the end, it is utter cacophony, definitely loud. What was the name again? The composer is Maurice Ravel in the track. It's called Bolero.

And it sounds like my shit. Sounds like Doom, but classical. Once you hear it, you're going to go, I know this. Oh, see. I know this, I know this melody. You could even play the first, or just a snippet of it on this podcast,

and everybody knows it. I think it was in fucking Conan the Barbarian. Like it's everywhere. It's ubiquitous. It's ubiquitous. But you just, you don't know what it is. And so this isn't really an artist so much as an approach, I guess. It's not even just a song.

You guys, all these are the La Vals and all these other pieces that are just fantastic. Wonderful, wonderful pieces of music. One more. This is absolutely eclectic. The one work that breaks me that I can't. listen to without sunglasses on is pet sounds by the beach boys. Great. I can't even really talk about it without getting kind of fucked up because it's,

it's really, it hits me in a big way. You know, it really emotionally affects me. Lyrical content or when it came out or? Yes. Yeah, just everything.

All of it. Yeah. Yeah, I've got a couple of those. The one track, you still believe in me is, is like one of the most heartbreaking things. And fucking literally all of the story of the everything.

When you put that in, it doesn't help. Yeah. I need more tissues. Yeah. Well, we're going to call it. Thank you so much for coming on. Thank you, Craig. It was a fucking pleasure.

Yeah. I hope to have joined the jiu-jitsu world so we can get on a mat. I would love it. I would love to kick each other's asses. I would love to take you to it. That's the most special thing for a jiu-jitsu player or a practitioner is to bring somebody in for their first. Oh, let's do that. So special.

I'm in LA all the time. Let's just fucking do that. I've got a place to take you. Done. Beautiful. Oh, I can't wait. Fuck yeah. Mike, thank you so much for coming on the downbeat.

Thank you. We are done.