The Downbeat - Monuments (Andy Cizek + John Browne)

Episode Date: June 29, 2023

My guests this week are Andy Cizek and John Browne from progressive metal band Monuments. We talked quite a lot about the increasing frustration around trying to make a living as a musician - including but not limited to merch cuts, streaming, the impact on mental health, and of course we spoke about their lovely and difficult-to-play music.

Greetings Traveller. Here we are. Coming at you from the past. I don't know how long in the past, how far back in the past, but we did a poll on patreon.com4 slash the Downbeat to decide which episode was coming out next because I'm on tour.

Straight from the Path is on tour. Check out those dates. It's either the second episode of June or the first episode of June. Or if for some reason it's neither of those things, something else has messed up. Such is the story of my life. Maybe the merchandise at www.

the downb-e.at is actually in stock now, and you can pick something up if you want to support the podcast or patreon.com for the downbeat, and you can be part of the polls that decide from now on what episodes come next, I think. Imagine I'll continue that, unless, I don't know. We'll see how that goes. My guest this week are Brown and Andy from Monuments. Recorded this a while ago.

Since then, they've got a new single. out, great progressive metal band. All unbelievable musicians. Also, Brown is a pretty well-established guitar teacher. He has riff hard, which is his platform. Check that out. And he's an unbelievable singer. He's been on YouTube.

He's all the favorite features. He's a features guy. Two great guys. What do we talk about? We talked about. dodgy record deals we talked about we talked about the formation of their band from the split of seminal UK I don't even want to say gent because it was pre-gent the band called fell silent and that split into monuments and tesseract fell silent was the combination of both bands we

talked about that for a bit we talked about mental health quite a lot we talked about how andy is as unhinged as me on social media great band check a Check out their new single, Nefarious, and enjoy Brown and Andy from Monuments on the Downbeat Podcast. Display is a poster company with a difference. They make metal posters, and I mean literally metal, not Satan and shouting and not showering for days on end. Literally made of metal. Displays mount on the wall with a magnet. No holes, no drilling, no nonsense.

If you're renting, the included protective leaf means you're not going to mess your walls up, just attach the leaf to the wall. wall, add the magnet and then mount your display. Because disc plates are magnetic, not only does it take a second to adjust, but you can swap them out depending on your mood, are you having some sort of manic episode, you want bright colours, are you depressed? With display, there's an option to 3D print a frame to the side of the poster. It's not a real frame, but it is textured like a real frame.

And at the sort of distance that you should be looking at a poster from, it definitely looks like a real frame. If you're looking at your posters really, really close up, you're probably up to something a bit weird. They've got official stores with bands like. like Gojira, Ghost, Judas Priest, Slipknot, as well as movies, games. We even made a Downbeat store. All of the coolest Downbeat merch designs.

We got the coffee club design. We've got tons on there. They've got tons of other stuff. You can get 20% off any display using the code Downbeat. If you buy three or more, you get 30% off. I get a little bit of kickback from that. You can support the podcast. You can support whatever I do.

And your rooms can look cool AF while doing it. Let's keep an eye on that, yeah. I'm going to kill myself at the start of this episode because this is not the start of the episode. Welcome back. Welcome back to Craig Kills Himself, Part 2. So we just did. How long do you reckon we just did there?

About 47 minutes? Nah. It was like 15 to 20. No. Yeah. Look, I'm 43 minutes past, half an hour at least. Have you ever seen the movie wanted? No.

Okay, well, there's a part where they teach you how to curve a bullet, right? pick a gun and right as you pull the trigger, you curve your arms so that way it goes through you know, multiple. So we can all just do a suicide circle. Is it a real thing? No, no, no, no. Maybe. Let's try. I mean, I've got three cameras. I could get three guns. We're in Glasgow. It's easy. We started doing an episode and I actually gassed up the hardware in the episode. I'm not going to slag him off. But something went wrong and here we are again, started again. But now we warmed up.

I'll be honest, my brain is dead now. It's all right. Let's talk about the album process. We barely got into. We'll start. We're going to have to start with the album process because I'm fucking, the nice, cool banter was the best bit. Yeah.

And we're going to have to hope. let's try and summarize. Can anyone summarize? Yeah, I got you. How's your brains? Right. Summary of everything we just spoke about. In Stasis.

Here's how we did it. Brown starts with some riffs. No, we didn't even talk about that bit yet. That's a new podcast. Yeah, he's talking about what we did at the beginning of the episode. We talked about Mike recording a podcast for you and then he longed you out.

There was so much. I slagged Mike off. It's actually good. We won't hurt his feelings. Oh, yeah. But now I'll be wondering, like, what was it? I'm going to have to explain myself. Mike was originally a member of Monuments that was on the podcast.

He didn't really, we did a good episode. He over-explained himself about 100 different things. Then he launched edits at me because all of those things didn't happen. And I, what did I say? You said, mate, you're longing me out. And we thought it was so funny that it is an inside joke now. Whenever someone is taking too long, you're longing me out

I can't believe this say less fam let's do this deja vu thing last time I saw you it was a bad omen spirit box show I think it was Baltimore it was rad

we were chatting Drew was there good stuff fun times and then the last time I saw you on a train on a train we first met

when fell silent stayed at your house for a house party 2004 2005 maybe I think it was 2005 I was not born yet let me just

The media just, right, let's slow down because anyone listening or watching. That's what we just talked about for half an hour and then it's fucking disband. So starting again, we've got that in three minutes. That fucking 10%. Right, the double espresso. That show, this is what I was thinking of the other day.

The show that fell silent, if anyone doesn't know, Brown was in a band called Fell Silent, back in the day, and that sort of fractured into three bands. Yep. Because I definitely knew about all three. of them.

One was around but Nottie went to it. Tesseract. I mean, Tesseract of Monuments came out of that really and then Noddy went to Heart for Coward. Was that show with Enter Shikari?

It might have been. Yeah, I think that show was Enter Shikari and Fels Island and it was in maybe the Newbury somewhere like fucking Newbury or Wantage or something. Bracklaw. Bracknell it was

It was a cellar and Bracknall Yeah it was Yeah And it was fucking how And that is like a what 100 cap Yeah I remember seeing Viatrophy there

Yeah Yeah But ain't a Shakari Yeah Fell sign in a hundred cap room Party in my house afterwards Bongs were smoked Plenty of bongs

I was taking algebra I should remember You fell asleep in a chair And you just slept in a chair In the kitchen I did that a lot That the signature move A normally

Noddy would try and drop some wasabi into my eye while I was sleeping, which he did a few times. Did I have wasabi in the house thing? No, I don't remember the wasabi instant that day, but funnily, it did happen in Edinburgh. It's a horrible thing today. Yeah, he did it to me in Edinburgh and it was on video. There's actually a video of it somewhere. I would like to see that.

And I try to kick him in his face. I was going to say, I would just fucking absolutely freak out. While we're on that, let me seamlessly get this. We've really skimmed over some shit here, guys. I'm very sorry. If you're on the Patreon, maybe you'll get the camera audio over the first bit of the fucking podcast

because I'm a nice guy. It's one pound, do it. And next every other episode, I'm going to have to do backups now. So that's infuriating. I've got the little road goes. That would be easy. Neema from Fell Silent.

Yep. Is on the new record. Yep. All right. Yeah, we just saw him. He came to the... He technically was in monuments. Was he?

Yeah, just before the first album came. out we released an EP with Nima and Greg Pope. So how many things you had? Too many. You know, Josh Travis actually sang for monuments before that. What? Yeah. Yeah, the first ever monuments demos was Josh Travis on vocals.

That's fucking sick. Josh Travis. Josh is amazing. Greg, Neema, Con filled in, Matt Rose, Chris Barreto, Andy. And when I die, we'll see. Is that how are you going out? Is it death? Remember the, we're doing.

that today, curving the bullet. Oh, I need to do it soon. I'm going to get over the technical issues. That is a lot of singers. Yeah, I mean,

uh, what's the deal? Do you hate them? Do, are these, okay, so we actually talked about, not to keep going on about the episode you guys missed,

but, but we talked about arguments because I said it's very, it's noticeable that monuments, you chose not to do everything yourself. Yeah. You delegate now.

Yeah. I wouldn't say I delegate I would say I just I understand that people want to be creative as well and you've got fucking heavy hitters around you it's not like they're coming to you with dog shit Mike's going I've got this drumbeat

just got to although kind of saying To be fair actually we wrote a bit together on the first record as well me and Mike when we first jammed so it's never that I've wanted to do it all myself it just kind of happened

How did the Nima feature come about? We asked him. Yeah, it just said, you know, it'd be cool to get your sound on monuments because it was originally monuments. I mean, you remember the... The first, the Felsan song EP, the one with just two tracks on it. Yeah. So fucking sick.

Yeah, it's just so rhythmical, isn't it? Oh. I can remember it at the top of my head, just that fucking one guitar when it starts. It's like... And then Nima, like, Yeah! Screaming chicken. I love it.

British chicken. Yeah, we wanted to bring it like full circle and sort of close a chapter for the OG fans and then start a new one. Is that why it's the first track? Yeah. I think so. And also we got Spencer coming back. He was on the first Monuments LP.

He did a feature on one of the songs. I think track seven. Yeah, no, it was denial. It was the last one. No, no. For the new one. Yeah, it's arc essence. Yeah.

So that was like our way of paying tribute to the, the OG fans and retaining some of that old monuments flavor and then be like, hey, I'm the new guy. And, you know, trying to sort of tie it all together. What did you do before monuments? Nothing really metal-wise. This is the first metal band I fronted. I've done some stuff features with Joshua Travis, and I've got that thing, Termina with Nick Nocturnal. But other than that, I'm in an ambient rock band called Makari. And before that, I did some stuff. where I was also recording, mixing, producing all by myself, and then starting to realize this is a good way to get burnt out,

so I'd like to work with other people. And Ollie Steele, who used to be in Monuments, found me on the internet. I did this. You remember when Sumerian Records did this contest audition thing where they just put a bunch of musicians together and put out an instrumental, and they were like, vocalists, audition,

write something to this. No. Well, I did that. I can imagine they were just trying to get money somehow. I think that's how it worked. And because I didn't, I had no part of that. But my audition, it made some waves and that's how they found me. And from there, we just started chatting.

What year is this? 2016, 17, maybe. Yeah, it was actually, we started talking to Andy before the third album came out. There were concerns. already. I think that all he was expressing, he didn't see a future with who they had at the time. And so, yeah, they just took a chance on me. And I filled in for, it was like a quick South African run. And you guys were like, let's do it. And I was like, all right, let's do it. Yeah. Like the ability, I mean, he's fucking amazing. So don't take this personally at it, you know.

but the ability is kind of second, isn't it? Like, someone, someone can learn to get better. It's how they are six weeks in a van. Is that why you did the, like, test, test a show? Fuck yes. Yeah. Yeah, I'm the same. You need, because, like, again, no offense to any of us,

everyone's good. You could find, you could find whoever you need for a supergroup on YouTube. Yeah. You just find a person, eh, I want that person. Yeah. But also, that person needs to be able to fucking hang out. There is no plugin for personality. You can auto tune vocals and you can fix stuff in the mix, but you can't...

And people can get better of their instrument as well. All they need is time, but if the personality is, it's really... You can't undo who someone is. Yeah. And if, like, it's weird because it's like, you can... You could fake the playing to get into the band, but then you're going to get found out and you're going to get kicked out. or you could be so good that you've missed out.

You've practiced your whole life and missed out on vital social skills. When you do join the band, you don't get it. So there's like that Goldilocks zone of like, he's a freak. But you're not a freak. That's just perfect. I will own that. I'll take that. I like that a lot.

But that's the same one that's like good. You've got to be a freak, but you've got to be like the freak spectrum. you've got to be like in the middle. Yeah, exactly. Every musician. I didn't mean that. By freak spectrum. But you are not wrong, though.

We all are very neurodivergent in a way that complements each other. I didn't mean freak as I was using a spectrum of freak like a spectrum of colors. I didn't mean the abilities, yes. The neurodivergent spectrum is for freak. I think that that lends itself for the record. That's what I didn't want to say, yeah, I'm out. How do you get canceled? The being sort of freakish in your instrument, I think, does go hand in hand with personality quirks.

And we all are very empathetic of each other and able to say, hey, you know, just because I don't have his brain doesn't mean his weirdness doesn't exist. So we look out for each other in that way. And that's how we make it work and get along on the bus. and yeah, I mean, like we were talking about before things were recording, growing up with Alex Rudinger and Anup and hitting the coffee shops and editing drums and feeling anxious, I got to practice. We bonded over stuff like that. So that camaraderie lent itself to us being able to get along on tour and make records.

And, you know, all of these past members, I feel like that was refining and fine-tire. tuning who we are now. And yeah, I think if you're a band for this long, you're bound to have falling outs and trimming the fat for lack of a better term until you find a good dynamic

and a good chemistry. And it's weird because there's like, it's only because there's such a big, our generation is the first generation to have an online footprint. So it's like, there are bands that are huge that when they were, you know, fucking practicing in their garage and there was no means to record,

let alone the internet. There's probably fucking 50 members. Yeah, it's not on Wikipedia, but it was in the past. I mean, even the biggest metal band in the world, Metallica has had different guitar players, different bassists, you know, it's like, it's pretty normal for people to, after 10 years, not to get on anymore. People change. Sometimes they go in different directions.

The key is dying, though. That's the way you want to leave. Yeah, because then everyone just goes, You're never going to be as good as this person. Yeah. And it's just like, that's the way I want to go on. I want to just be like, I want to piece out of life instead of just piecing out of the bands and then forever.

I've got to wait until I've done more shit first, but then forever, everyone's like, oh, you'll never be as good as him. That's a motorbike. Little does everyone know, whoever it is is way better than me. But I died. It's like being the, like, That's the penultimate exit. The difficult second spouse.

No offense to any second spouse is out there, but he's never going to be his best as the one's right. That picture is still on the mantel piece, and it's allowed to be there. You are being cucked from the mantelpiece. It's true. Anyway, that was dark. Let's talk about what we were going to do before I realized that this hadn't fucking recorded because I'm absolutely deranged.

What is the monument's writing process? I think I've been asking quite a lot on the podcast and it's really interesting the differences in like the ecosystems of the band. So talk me through from, let's go from idea inception to the album is recorded, but just give me like how a song gets written. All right.

First things first is I'm normally playing my guitar without an amp, just at home, and I'll send a video to the group. Acoustic or electric. Let's get really technical. Monuments fans, listen up. Both acoustic and electric. There's been times when I've just picked up an acoustic in my spare room and sent that over video.

And obviously, the guys say, I mean, it sounds cool, but we can't really understand the vibe because we don't know the tempo, we don't know what drums are over it. So they don't get the groove of it. You send it as a voice note? No, I send it as a video. I'll be playing the part.

So then eventually when I get them, it. I'll go into the studio, get it recorded down, and then send it with some program drums, some bass, get some feedback. What's the feedback? Let's go. A lot of times it's like awesome riffs, beautiful, kind of a salad. And let me sort of, like a riff salad, you know. Oh, okay. Like, I feel like the structure needs to be messed with. So I will often mess with the structured, copy and paste, send it back to Brown and be like, what the fuck is this? I don't get it. it. He'll fuck with it. And then we just, we back and forth

until we're satisfied. And then, like the last record, sent it over to Mick Gordon. We worked with Mick. Okay, sir. What stage does it get to get to before it goes to Mick? In fact, we sent him stuff before there was even full songs. So then if there was any ideas for any of the riffs, like the chorus of the first

song on the record, one with Nima on it, the chorus was different to that. And he wanted, you could hear this melodic phrase within X. It was all on one note because I like one note because my sugar doing it sounds fucking great. But yeah, he changed this melody and did that before the song was even finished. So he added the melody there?

Yeah. So the actual chord sequence, the way that it was moving. So that was cool. Which is, again, sorry to cut back because I just realized that people didn't hear this bit, part of the conversation.

We were talking before about producers, and I think it's really important to, not, as I said, not necessarily delegate, but have other people pick your brain on your ideas. I guess, like, Mick is technically co-producing there when you send him the thing, and that's exactly what you need, because you trust,

especially if it's someone like we have Will Putney, it's like someone that you trust, almost, well, in my case, I can't speak for you, but, like, above what I can do, I'm like, well, the guy has a fucking Grammy and he makes records that I love. Like, send him something, he goes,

no this is what should be there and then you just go he's right yeah okay yeah it's good to have that and rather like be because you said you would stress out being the one person that does fucking everything yeah i mean i could never do it anyone like you know the that does it by themselves you know like an example of this is tesseract who have got four and is it four phenomenal albums right that ackel's done himself so people see that and think oh i can do that. It's a bit of a, like, people want to, kind of want to put, remember on Facebook, multi-instrumentalist, hat, and then whatever the band is. Yeah, I definitely did that once. But everyone fucking did it. We start there. I think a lot of metal musicians started there being,

I will record, edit, produce, I'll do everything, and then you realize, I can't do that forever. And it's good to have other people take the wheel sometimes, people that you trust. For the album we were all in a discord server the entire time so mick could see what was going on george our mixing engineer could see what was going on and anytime someone had a little idea they were able to express it and that if it was good it would make it into the album whereas if we didn't have that discord server it would just stay in one person's brain it would never get to that point shout out discord i fucking love it's good yeah thank you discord um what in this server they are they're going up as demos still. Yeah, so it would be like a couple of riffs here, then update a couple of days later.

Mike would, as I said, Mike would go to the studio, to my studio, and we would set up his kit in the other room. He would actually do live drums, so he'd send just a stereo out to my computer so that it was his full mix like he does on stream, and then it was a case of, oh, that sounds cool, try this, so then it would be real time trying to... That's kind of how me and Tom wrote the last stray record. do it over audio movers by any chance no we just did it on on twitch what's audio movers it's going to change your life mate it's like a live live streaming of audio across the internet and so you can sort of just send what's going out of your daw to your friends as you're doing it

you load it as if it's a plug in yeah yeah i think jordan fish was telling me about this yeah so basically so say you've got your your amazing drum sound that you've got right thanks it's not it's not me Yeah, I mean, but it's still, you play it, and you know, you've got to play good for it to be good. And you could send a stereo bounce of that to your guitar player on the other side of the world, and he can record it in his door, and then he's got it there as a stereo. Yeah. There's actually multi-track ones as well. So, like, you could potentially, you would be on FaceTime to each other.

Yeah, you could be like on a, just on a call. Yeah. And then audio movers is there. How long does it take together? Seconds, midly seconds. Oh, my God. It was crazy. Yeah.

I mean, this is how we can write records from across the water. So you all use that? Yeah, we did for this. Yeah, so Mike would be in his house. I'd be... You want a Discord call at this point?

Yeah, Discord call. With everyone on there at the same time? We can pop in and out. We would not always be on, but... Oh, man, that's cool as fun. We found a multi-track one as well, so you can actually record... So Mike would be in his drum room,

send the plug in for all the individual drums, and I would get it on my side. Yeah. Yeah, and this is this is a credit to Mike Malian. I mean, he's the one that says, hey, let's try this. Let's set this up. And, you know, he gets into the weeds of it. And, you know, longs you out a little bit, but also. I can't believe there's a monument's in joke that I started and I didn't even know. You're longing me out. Say less, fam. It's accredited to you. It's so rude to me to say as well, which means I know I said it. That's great. We love it. I can imagine myself just going, oh, bro, you're longing me out. Literally, that's literally would have happened.

That's so cool because during a pandemic, loads of companies, even like Zoom and everything, really tried to be like, oh, this is the high quality audio one. And it's like, it never, I tried to do podcasts on it. It was like, it was never right. Yeah, no. No one did it. But Discord was actually what we ended up just using,

but not with this busy shit. We just go on a Discord call. I would write some stuff. We'd do it on Twitch. I would send it to Tom. He would load up my. stems, essentially without the plugin, he would load up my stems and then he would stream on Twitch and he would write to it or whatever.

But our producer in that was the Twitch chat. There was like stuff on the record that people were just like, oh, you should put another chug there and it made it on the record. Didn't get credit and you're not going to get credit. Now, we did that a bit with our album too. Mostly me and Mike, because me and Mike stream on Twitch. So I would record the vocals at my home studio and then edit on stream or I would track a demo scratch vocals on stream, so sometimes there would be input from viewers and I'd be like, hey, that's

a pretty good idea. Most of the time I'd be like, nah, I don't feel like doing that. But every now and then there would be a diamond that makes it in there. A shout out to Twitch. And yeah, it was... Can I have some more money though? Yeah, please. Stop taking 50% of subscriptions. You did change that. I sort of went on strike when you did that, and then I realized I just was making no money. So I'm back, but can I have some more? I tried to get this on Twitch. I was like, look, it's a TV show. Just give me some money and I'll do it all live.

I'm one button press away from going live. Literally one button press. And they were like, no, 50 years ago. I was like, no, then. This new way of making albums, it wouldn't have been possible a few years ago. Literally maybe like three years ago. Yeah, yeah.

I mean, it was the right time with me joining, being in America, not having the money or the means to go over and stay in a studio for a month and work on an album. And it kind of also lent itself to our strengths because we're sort of burrowers that like to do our own thing, have our privacy, and then present it to the group. And so, yeah, Brown was able to do that. Mike was able to do that.

And then we would work on each other's parts a little bit until we all felt satisfied. And that's another thing as to why these assholes chose me. because I could record and produce my own vocals without them having to hire a guy to do it. So it was a good match, not just ability and personality-wise, but on the technical side too. I feel like with your type of singing, it really does help having someone that can just do that stuff themselves. Was the stuff that you recorded the final takes that went on the record? Yeah, I didn't want to do my own editing, but we sent it off to someone that sent back some tracks

we weren't satisfied with, so I was like, all right, I'll just... It's annoying, isn't it? No one can... I think about this all the time with the podcast, with my drumming, no one cares about it as much as the person that made it. No one.

Like, I've had it in my entire career with everything, and it sucks if you're that kind of... resilient like you said like a borrower like because you just end up fucking doing it yeah it's always the same i'm like it's the same with the podcast i'm like i've got now i've got two terabytes of footage that i need to edit and i'm like i send it to like i want to send it someone for a test but then by the time i've uploaded five terabytes yeah you could have done it i could just do it and then i start doing one i'm like no one's going to like this bit that i need to edit no one's going to care. And I also think that if you delegate certain tasks like that to other

people, you'll find that you let things go, you'll let things slide that you wouldn't have done yourself. And then, you know, that for me, that keeps me up at night. That would pick at me. So it sucked, but I was still happy to do it all myself just so I could have that peace of mind. actually yeah i just remembered something on the record there's a guitar part that is one 16th out of time no way and it wasn't like that in the test that i got back right so i listened to the test and then all right sounds good export the files then it was just like guitar comping i didn't i sent that off anyway it comes to the final record final master i didn't even notice it because i don't want to listen to more.

Oh yeah, like a fan point. Yeah. And it was like, is that right? And I was like, so I listened, it was like, oh, that's definitely not right. Wait, there's an out of time riff. Yeah. Well, you want to tell us what it is. On one side.

I still don't know where it is. One side. So it's only one side that's ever, so it's like one 16th out. All right, don't tell me where it is then, because that's a cool fucking Easter egg. Yeah. Just get people to go and listen. So one, so it's a left and right pan guitar, I assume, fucking quad-tracked or whatever.

Yeah. And one whole side is a 16th now? Yes. For one section. So how long is the section? About 20 seconds. Oh, that's quite long. Yeah, it is.

Does it sound cool at least? It sounds like some crazy panning situation? Sounds like mush. I still haven't been able to find it. I mean, respectfully, is it one of the fast riffs? Yeah. Which song is it? Somnus.

Okay. Oh, we've told everyone now. No idea. No, no, he just asked me, so I was going to keep it quiet. Yeah. Yeah, since Somnus. Look for it. Listen to the album and look for the fuck up.

Respectfully, like, there's a lot going on. It could sound like you just fucking mate. Sure. Yeah, it is. It's like that, you know, those sick thrifts that go, didda-da-da-da-da-da-da. Yeah, I meant to do it. Just say Mike wrote it.

He actually did write that song. There you go. He did. He did. He designed that. Yeah, shout out to Solentone's Odin. I love Mike. I really hope he doesn't think that I was...

He loves you too, don't worry. Good, good, good. He's a very, very... You can't give him a hug tonight, can't you? Very good, John. Here's the thing about tonight. I have a meeting, which I can't actually speak about on this.

I can tell you what it is afterwards. Okay. And it is smack bang at 8 o'clock. That is when our set is... He's actually exactly when you're set. Godspeed. 15. Yeah, I ain't go, fuck...

Oh, that's okay. Which is just fucking bullshit. But I'll tell you what the meeting is after this. And you'll be less... Less interested than Mike would be. Put it that way. But I can't, I can't, I might even fucking, by the time this comes out, it'll be, it'll be out whatever it is.

Sure. So I can't fucking. Can't wait. Sounds exciting. It's exciting if you're a drama, I guess. But the story behind it is fucking absolutely mental. I'm already hypothesizing. I can't, I can't wait to get this done so I can tell you about it because I'm so annoyed by it.

Before I forget, because I'm derailed from my mental notes, which are mental. There are some notes. but I never look at them. Me and you are kindred Twitter spirits, Andy. Even if you don't think we are. No, I do. And I am honored to hear you say that. I really am.

I love your Twitter, man. Yeah, and I love yours, because there's not many of us that despite how fucking shitty music can be sometimes and how, like, I'm assuming you've got mental health problems. what gave it away no but like as in so do I and it's like

people are so there's like the buzzword shit and everyone like hey guys just gonna post it's okay not to be okay

and everyone is like oh good for you and then I say something and it's like hey guys I want to fucking jump in front of a train and then everyone goes

oh wait not like that exactly you're supposed to package that into a nice sentence that I can retweet I hate that shit where it's like directed at no one in particular but like you are worth it you are it's like you're not talking to anyone and you don't know like it doesn't help you know it's it's

it's like it's for a pad on the back but it really doesn't because if you don't know who you're saying that to it how could it possibly mean anything yeah it's toxic positivity and it's like it's a grift for some people it doesn't help it it actually makes me feel more alienated and less, more alone. Exactly. And that's like, I guess my excuse when someone will say, like, it's not even an excuse is what I actually feel, but when someone goes like, do you think you should have overshared that when it's like some real fucking, you should have put a trigger warning?

You know, like really fucking bad shit. And I'm like, well, yeah, because when I'm feeling shitty and I'm thinking like insane shit because I'm an insane person, and I see some. someone that I look up not saying people look up to me but it must be fucking one person I think it looks up to me like see someone else post something that in my head I've been ashamed

of like I shouldn't be thinking like that because everyone else's little fucking covered in flowers and daisies buzzword okay not to be okay I see someone say the shit that I'm thinking in my head and I'm like oh okay that's at least another person

solidarity yeah that feels like that Yeah. And I don't do it as some sort of like noble crusade. Like I really am, I'm venting. I'm feeling shit. I'm trying to get it out there. But I'm hoping that there are people who at least relate to it and get something from it that isn't just like a, what's the word I'm looking for? Like placating them. You know what I mean? I want to pull one up if I was like, I was like, please. It's funny that you guys. It make me face. the music that you like want to post about it because like it's more that we can't help it I think I know what yeah because for me I completely shut down like yeah I don't post sure like that's also valid yeah I haven't posted since the third day of our American tour on my Instagram what happened I just I don't know just the narcissism of it just just just something snapped in yeah yeah so it snapped and I yeah I've been struggling with it yeah yeah I I totally get

cringing at even wanting to put your thoughts out there. That's valid too. But for me, I'm just like, I'm like that meme of the dude who's like, like, all these veins are popping out. And I'm like, you know, I don't want to like alienate professional connections. And I don't want, you know, people to think I'm fucking insane. But I also want to be real. I don't, I don't want to, you know, be a fucking, like a mascot and just parade around.

I think also for me is. that people don't actually read properly as well. Well, there's, there's, you're totally leaving yourself vulnerable to criticism. What do you mean read properly? Like, like, they'll misconstrue. They'll misconstrue, like,

that's a whole new sentence, dog, you know? Like that kind of shit. Yeah, they'll read part of the sentence and then make it part for their own agenda in their own beliefs. I mean, that's the internet, isn't it? Last life, unfortunately. What are they called?

Isogesis, funny enough. What? It's called isegesis. It's where you take part of someone's sentence or phrase or story and use it to fulfill your own agenda. Interesting. Did you delete the tweet? No, I don't think so. I mean, there's a lot.

It's like my Twitter. Which one? The one that got you the most heat recently. Oh, that's still up there, for sure. Where is it? It's far back. It's far back on... What, January?

Some other self-loathing shit. No, January. I've got your many apologies about it. Being it, yeah, yeah. No, no, it's still up. I promise. I'm going to find it. I couldn't delete that one.

It's out there. Okay. Can you summarize? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Being in a band feels pretty stupid now. Half my heroes are disgraced perverts.

And there's nothing cool about this shit anymore. Barely making any money. Got it. You know. Yeah. Et cetera. Eight thousand. And then.

Let me read the whole thing. What? We're giving the rundown. Let's go. Let's go. Being in a band feels pretty stupid now. The culture is. embarrassing and nothing about it's cool anymore make almost no money and half my old heroes are

disgraced perverts i've worked my whole life for this and all i feel is ashamed broken down and obsolete barely hanging on yeah that's the one i've got a thing i want to make it a segment on the podcast but i keep forgetting it which is normal things that make you want to mosh that tweet all right i get to the end and i'm like i want a fucking mosh amen and and that's i appreciate that man because obviously I was hovering over the send button like I want to say this but you know there's times where I put something out there and it gets very misconstrued and of course that did it did but something you said was like I guarantee the people who are misconstruing this have not lived the life that that we've lived they don't understand and it's so easy to see that as someone not

in this industry and be like oh he's in it for the wrong reasons he's complaining he's pretty like shut the fuck up um but for for you and me you know it's it's something that we can uh bond over and feel less alone about and uh it felt really good that you chimed in and that other musicians chimed in too and yes i did apologize because i felt like there's only so many characters for me to express myself and i didn't mean that it it always feels stupid and that i'm not happy making music but it's like we train for a job that doesn't really

exist anymore and these pieces of myself that I felt so closely to are now tainted and disgraced and it's like it almost like reflects it feels like it reflects on me do you think and I'm saying this because I think this is how

this happens part of being so involved in what you're making chips away at you like you're saying that you did the editing on the album and stuff, being a musician that cares so much about their stuff that has to do their own editing because otherwise no one's going to get it,

like being so involved in your own shit, then you'll have these moments where you zoom out for a second, you're like, I'm not getting enough credit for this. Like financially, like, I feel like that now, maybe it's because I'm a bit spoiled, but like setting up a fucking drama, drum kit. Like, your... That's hours of your life.

Your tour is 40 dates long. Yeah. And Mike is setting up the drums. Not just that. He's setting up all the mics and all the cables too. Oh, what the fuck? Yeah, we couldn't afford crew at all. Okay, so... Okay, so his meltdown on Twitter's coming. Loading and load out.

I'd have one on day fucking two. I think he's been close, actually, on day five. But this is why people melt down. Yeah, like... Yeah. And, but then the criticism is like, why do you do it then? you know like just quit like what you don't you sound like you don't even like music and you're in it for the wrong reason it's like no motherfucker like like i love music and i i love creating and i love performing but you you don't realize like what's going to happen in the future and and and

this bottom of the barrel shit that no one talks about because of this toxic positivity stuff like you don't really know what you're signing up for i still would have signed up for it regardless this, but it doesn't mean we're not allowed to complain about it. We're not allowed to say this shit is fucked up. Yeah, it's like, if you're at work in a fucking, like a warehouse and it's leaking and some of it's on fire, and then you complain like, ah, like, I love this job. But my hands keep getting burned. Yeah.

And then everyone's like, well, you're in the wrong fucking job then. You work in a warehouse. You're going to get your hands burned. It's hard to explain It's an esoteric thing Even now I feel like I'm doing a shit job Of explaining No, you're not

And I'm gonna I'm gonna delve A little bit deeper into it Because some of the replies Are so insane Like some of the quote tweets Are just people that are so Not only out of touch But like they're young

And it just makes me think Wow you don't know what's fucking coming You've got no idea what's coming And you probably never will Do you know what the problem was with the tweet is that people focused on the one key word, the one key word being money. The word that they understand because they're like,

oh, I know what money is, but I don't know what anything else is because I've never experienced it. That's the problem. Yeah, yeah. It's, yeah, let's see. What do we get into the weeds? I mean, it's just, it's everyone on every single, like, spectrum of the world arguing.

And it's just horrible. No, what, like, fucking hell. I don't even get this stuff. You got, I don't even want, no, I don't even want to say them. It's not even worth bringing it up.

But like, you've got it, the spectrum is from people saying, I don't believe this, there's no way you're not making money because I think you're a fucking super rock star. And then you've got people on the other side of that saying, well,

obviously music, music doesn't make money. You knew that going in, which those people are also wrong. Yeah, yeah, totally. The world is, is nothing like it was when, I mean, we grew up on, like, Warped Tour and shit. That, that doesn't exist anymore.

Like, like... Or CDs. Yeah, CDs, that's over, you know? And our niche is just even more niche now. And, uh, what do you, you know, what do you expect? Like, we, we poured our whole lives into this. I'm not going to give up music just because this shit sucks, but I'm still allowed to say this shit sucks.

Yeah. And it's not, it's not like it constantly sucks. Right. I wish she wouldn't fucking do it. That was a moment, you know, barely hanging on in this moment. What was the moment? The moment was... Come on, come on, give me the fucking little Jews.

You know it. I just saw you. Something must have happened. It was... I don't know. I don't know if it was just... Woke up too early. Doom scrolling or...

It's really... It's tough to remember what brought me there, but there's triggers. You know what I mean? And people, like, people see the money word and they think, oh you want more money or whatever or no i just want to pay rent yeah it's like yeah it's people don't realize how you you need a side hustle to be in a band that is not huge you need a side hustle at least one well that's kind of fucked up like in principle this is my business model now is that i work for free so that i can make a name for myself so that name allows me to apply it to

a side hustle. You know what I mean? Like, I'll make albums get no money just so that way that legacy for making albums allows me to stream on Twitch and actually make money. And that is fucked up, in my opinion. I'm glad I can do it. You know, it's sick that I can use my presence in music to make a living on Twitch. But it's kind of messed up that I can't be paid for the albums that I make. Like, what the fuck, man, you know? Even on this tour, I mean, leprous, you know, the drummer and is still doing drum lessons. And we're playing, what, 1,000 cap rooms, 1 to 1,500. I mean, we played Shepard's Bush Empire yesterday.

And it all, it all gets spent away, you know, on the merch, and the merch cuts. And the merch cut last night for the venue. Merch cuts in the UK. Yeah, Shepard's Bush. Yep. Yeah. 25% plus 20% VAT. And we had a message of someone saying,

75 quid for a hoodie, you having to laugh. Hey, Siri, who owns Shepard's Bush Empire? He's right now. He's right now. I just kill this. I wanted him to say their fucking name. Say my name. But yeah, and it's like what we were talking about.

When we decided, as youngsters, I want to be a musician. I want to get into rock. people were still getting paid for their albums. People were still buying CDs. And then we... This is what we make it. We get to the dream level.

Yeah, yeah. And it's gone. It's like, you know, we've put thousands and thousands of hours where otherwise we could have been doing other stuff that we didn't want to do. And we put it into the music on the idea

that this job would exist and it doesn't exist in the same way. And how would, you know, how would you feel? Like, it's rough, man. And, and a lot of,

a lot of people like stop moaning just to just modify your business model and and do TikTok and stuff and it's like that work no offense man but like I never uh I didn't get into this so I could reduce my my music to 30 second bits of content I hate that fucking word now content I mean I love it ironically yeah that's that's good I'll try to get to that place what's um what's weird for me is that you know people say are get a real job or whatever like that but it's like well you listen to music you enjoy music you consume it you consume it's why i i i i i i'm coming for us i do we're fucked oh and that's another that's another freaky conversation man yeah that's not go down that dark rabbit hole yeah but all

you've got to do is i'm i'm i'm a firm believer in the side hustle like i'm i'm the same and i've talked about it on the podcast before like and it's not it's not like we don't make money like any of us. It's not we don't make money. It's like the effort that goes into the product does not equate the amount of money we get without... $3 an hour. Without the side hustle. That's why I stopped recording

bands because I was like, wait a minute. I'm losing money. Same. My lunch. My lunch was my fucking Percy from this deal. Same boat, man. I used to record bands too. And then I realized the amount of time

it was so below minimum wage. It's not even the amount of time that bothered me about recording bands. I know where you're going. It was the amount of mix notes, obviously, longing me out. I love this. But it would also be the amount of time it took that band to pay you. Like, even if they were assigned to a label, the label would make sure that you waited

as long as they wanted you to wait to get paid. Yeah, if there's any wiggle room for you to get screen. root around, they will take it. In the music industry, yeah, fucking rare. It is worse and worse, you know. I do feel like bottom of the barrel. And all people see is that 45 minutes of vanity on stage, hey, look at me, that must feel really good.

That looks awesome. That looks so fun. I would kill to be up there. What they don't see is that we are trudging through shit, getting sick, getting no sleep, getting all of our money cut or taken away by labels, being our own. crew, our own Rodey, our own merch person, our own tour manager, like all of this stuff that I just want to be a musician when I was a kid, you know, what the hell is all this extra shit? Well, you have to do it if you want to keep up because everyone's hungry and it's

so saturated. I play the drums. Yeah, and then he set up, like, Craig set out of these three cameras. Yeah. Lovely unit. Like all of this effort. This is so I can make money. Because when I'm on tour, I pay for a drum tech and I, like, I, like, I'm, I pay to be comfortable. So I come home from a tour, I haven't really made that much money. Right, exactly. People give a fuck about this. You can either...

You can either... You can either stay relatively sane and healthy and, you know, not lose your shit or fuck up your voice. Or you can, you know, like, make a little bit of money and fucking die on tour and then you're going to want to quit. That's like the people that do... I can't... The people that do the drum lessons and shit on tour.

Like, I can't... Shout out to Mikey. I can't fucking do that shit. Same. I would never be able to do voice lessons on tour, man. I can barely get through the fucking 11 shows in a row. There was a tour that we did. It was the Glass Cloud tour, I think, in 2014. And I had 52 lessons on that tour throughout that 30-something days, right?

Because I had to. It was the only way to make any money. On that tour, we got paid $150 a night as a band, barely covered gas. That's fucking crazy. in it. So did those guitar lessons. Shout out to anyone that took one on that tour. Thank you very much. You helped me, you know, get through it. But now I can't even imagine doing that now. Like, I was younger back then. So it didn't seem as difficult. But without a tech, without a front of house guy, you know, we haven't had a front house guy. We've managed to

what? We managed to convince Tom, who's the monitor guy for lepros to do our front of house. because... For a fair fee. For a fair fee, yeah. He's amazing. But before we did this tour, we were like, we can't afford a front of house. Yeah, we were like, we were doing the numbers.

We had all these meetings. There was like, just to break even on this tour, we have to sell this amount of merch every night, just to break even. Should we even do this tour? This is not in time. Who's your booking agent? What's happening?

No, we can't. No, no, no, no. Here's a thing. I mean, it's a support tour. You know as well as I do that support. tours don't pay the same as headlining tours. But it's bullshit. It's bullshit and it sucks and it's hard

to wrestle with and, you know. You're on a bus? Yeah, we're on a bus. That's the thing. And that is the thing. We're sharing it with two other bands. You could make money and be in a van, but you would kill yourself. No, no. I actually think we'd spend more money because it's divided by three bands, this bus. But that in principle, I totally understand. But we're in our

30s. I'd rather have no money. I can't fucking, I can't do the 15 passenger sleep in the van anymore, man. Like, it just... Oh God, I got a stitch. He's going to die. And why do you think he has that stitch, man?

We're sleeping like shit. Our posture is terrible. You need to get up. Okay. Yeah, you know that feeling of the back of your leg when it's going to do that thing? Oh, the cramp, yeah. The cramp, it just did that.

Right. I mean, you're seeing... Leave that in there. Leave that in there. You're seeing it play out in real time. This is... Literally, as we're talking... talking about sleeping like shit.

Dehydration and shitty diet because it's really, really hard to eat and drink and sleep well on tour just to break even hopefully. Fuck, you know, how can you not complain about that? That's hard shit. I'm not going to complain about it. Well, I am. I'll do enough complaining for both of us. Me and Craig, we got it covered.

I want to take a minute right here to thank the sponsor of today's Downbeat Podcast, athletic greens. AG1 by Athletic Greens is a foundational nutritional drink with 75 different superfoods, antioxidants, prebiotics, probiotics and stress adaptogen extracts designed to fuel cellular health on the daily. I got another tour in the books right there. I played real good. I felt real good. I wasn't very stressed. I slept pretty good. Why? I mean, I would like to think some of it was because I was using the lovely little travel packs from Athlete Greens of AG1, one scoop per day with 250 milliliters of water. Didn't get sick, did I?

My immune system was supported, I imagine, by all the goodness that was in there. I can't even list you all the goodness that's on there. It's all on the website. There's so much in there. I was carrying, you know it by now, I was carrying around a million different pills, powders, trying to get them on a plane. You know the drill. They think they're drugs.

They're not drugs. They are 75 different things now in one scoop. I don't have to bother going around with all my little pills and powders, add them to my other pills and powders. That's a joke, right? No pills, no powders, just one powder. Ag1 by Athletic Greens. If you're looking for a better way to take supplement, Athletic Greens is giving you a free one-year supply of vitamin D and five free travel packs, those things I mentioned with your first purchase. Go to Athletic Greens.com forward slash the downbeat. That's athletic greens.com forward slash the downbeat. Check it out.

Support the podcast. Support your immune system. Peace. Rather than I was just complaining because I could do it all day. I mean, you just think about and tell people how they can help. But my issue with the merch cut conversation, that's happening right now. I've got a couple of issues with it

which I aren't spoken about. Now, some of them are a little bit, I'll get in fucking trouble and I already have on Twitter. So, if people don't know, there's people listening that don't know, becoming the norm that when you sell your merch,

everyone now is, everyone used to think the bands make their money from music. They don't. Now they make their money from on tour. How do they make their money on tour? They make it from the merchandise. But now what's happening is the people at the top of the music industry

who are also losing money, but infinitely less money than the artists, are going, well, wait a minute, there's that merchandise money actually there. We should probably have a bit of that. And the venue owners and the huge, massive conglomerate company that owns most of these venues, will take a cut of the merchandise sales, and that's traditionally how the bands are making all their money.

But what I'm also seeing now is now that that is coming out. You've got bad. Bad Omen's is my favorite Twitter account in the moment because they're just smoking every company that they deal with. I saw them throw in Piracon under the bus yesterday. I was like, wow, that's unhinged. Yeah, take it back. But like with the merch cut, I've had people ask me,

like, okay, so how can I support the band now? Because I used to buy merch at shows. because I know that's the best way, but now I've heard about this merch cut thing so I don't want to buy merch of shows. And it's like, no, no, we'll still take that merch money. But you can maybe you can vocally be against the merch cut. Tip the merch guy because they don't get it.

Sometimes, you know. Do you know what I want to see? I want to see more bands draft into their contracts that any venue that takes a percentage of merch gets a percentage of the bar. Yeah, that's the... You hear that a lot, but that in principle, you know, that'll never happen. I mean, it's never going to happen. Did you hear what happened at Coco recently? Did you hear this fucking shit show?

No. So, Coco's been selling private tickets to their top bar. Okay. Well, the balcony part. The balcony part, yeah. But not informing the bands of the special 200 VIP ticket price. Okay. So they've been selling over a hundred of them for all the big events.

so 100 times 200 is 20 grand so and and they keep all their money all of it and they put it down as one ticket equals just the price of a ticket write that down right that down who owns cocoa it's not going to come up but but yeah i remember i remember hearing that the other day and um from from from from from our daddy you know right right yeah say less daddy yeah um and um i just found it's funny that even in the venue basically it said now if you you know you can fuck off we'll just we're going to sell our tickets make the money you have to have a lot of power and leverage if it's independently owned post pandemic if koko's independently owned post pandemic i would me personally i'd be like get yours get your money whatever but if it's owned by one of those

companies that are just now just one of those companies that bought up every single fucking venue that was going bust and is now sucking everything, then fuck then. But no doubt there's probably a merch cut too. So not only do they make 20 grand off your band, but they also want a little bit of piece of your merch. Well, this is the thing about the merch cut deal. Okay, so like, we're at the bottom of the barrel. Merch is the only way we can make money.

And these dudes at the top, they know they can get away with these merch cuts. Why do they know they can get away with it? Because they know we're going to cannibalize each other. because it's so saturated. Everyone is so hungry that we're willing to put up with bullshit. So someone like you or me makes a tweet complaining about it, and half of our own fucking, you know, brethren is criticizing us for it. You instead of criticizing the reason that you have to make.

They know they can do that. They can get away with it because plenty of people are like, closer to the whole of, you know, they're willing to kiss ass just to be, you know, up in this position. So that's why they get away with it. It's a vicious cycle. It's funny. You know, they know they can do it

because they know we're going to fight each other to get to this, you know, virtual top of the hill that is still shit. Here's what I think, sorry, just before, if I can forget it, don't you forget what you were about to say. Here's my controversial take, which is separate from the,

we should take a cut of bar because that's, in practice, it's harder to do. All the booking agents start drafting deals that, say no merch cut and all of them do it at the same time every breaking agent says the band will not play for a merch cut takes a lot of balls i think they're they're still afraid yeah no one will

no one will but it would solve it immediately it's almost like a you need a booking agent strike yes absolutely yeah so like yeah we're not going to book any bands at your venue unless you fuck this off yeah um but there's always going to be the scabs that that will not do that because actually yeah that might actually mean the booking agents at the bottom might then change round. I mean, I love a booking agent there,

like the reason we've got fucking jobs and, you know, touring is the only that pays. But the deal is drafted with the

merch cut. It's not like the merch cut. Everyone is like, like they'll post a tweet and then everyone's surprised like, oh, what do you mean

there's a merch cut? It's like, motherfucker, everyone knew there was a merch cut. It just caught you off guard on the night. Right. You had that one

that was like, this happens because we let it happen. This happens. And then most people with, you know, a brain are like, yeah, that's so true. But then there's other people that are like, we don't let it happen, you know, like, it's like, you do, you do. What I was going to say is there was an article by O Sleeper a few years ago where they actually did a breakdown of like merch costs, you know, for the people that don't really understand, you know, how capitalism works.

And I think it's on metal sucks. I think everyone should read that so they understand. why merch costs a certain amount, especially when you add in the percentage and it's not the balance fault that you have to charge X amount for the T-shirt, which is why we always put it on better quality garments for that very reason.

You know, I'd feel terrible giving someone a fruit of the loom t-shirt for like 60 quid. Yeah. You know, no one wants that. You guys go for a lotment as well, don't you? Yeah, we do. It's good quite shit. Yeah, it is.

But like, yeah, it's... And the other thing is when people don't realize, which I don't realize, because I've got my own fucking clothing line. Then you've got to, once everyone takes their little cut, then you've got to split that, split what's left five fucking ways. Five fucking ways, do you? Nope, not doing it.

And you stack that up with just the percentage that a label takes from your music, and then even after you recoup the meager amount that you're getting split five ways, that's, it's nothing. Yeah, the funny thing is people don't know how a label works either. So say you've got your 18% cut, which is average for a major label, the money that you get for your advance only comes out of that 18%. And it's like, so if you borrow 100 grand, you have to sell 180,000 records in order to make that back.

And then once you make it back, it's like, all right, now you can start making your 30%. And then you can split that five ways. And then people are like, all right, well, then do it without a label. but also what money mate you know but also yeah people people are so flippant to just because they've seen like one successful page here like we'll just I'm not chance the rap there's one person that just keeps commenting on almost it's like this is why I think everyone should be independent it's like oh okay this is why I think every person on earth should have free food it doesn't mean it can

fucking happen immediately I mean if you want to like destroy your credit and and take out like 10 credit cards to make an album and take on that financial risk maybe. Having said that, I did that in the pandemic to do this. And it did pay off. All right. But I was in, I was in fucking debt for a while. You've got to be unhinged enough to take the fucking, you have to be very brave. You've got to have brass balls. I want to get onto something fun.

Yeah. Thank you so much, by the way, for talking about that. I appreciate it. I mean, I think it's important to, without being super, super, super fucking bleak to just show people. people like, you know, it is, it is difficult. And you can't, like, you can make money. The side hustle thing, like, I'm, I'm all for it. But, like, there's also a culture of, like, the hustle culture shit. When it's like, oh, yeah, sell your soul and your hours.

Yeah, but for some reason, when it's online, the hustle culture is like, when it's like, well, we'll simply drop ship while you're doing this, while you're doing this, like to bring it to us, like, have a Patreon, have a clothing, have all this, blah, blah, blah, blah. But it's like, there's a weird, like, you were just making ends meet. And if you,

if you summed it up in a different way, obviously it's a much more privileged thing, but it's like, it's like somebody working three jobs, like, more than three. Yeah. More than three.

But, do you know what I mean? Like, there's, people, people in poverty work three jobs. And it's like, it's obviously not the same thing. But for some reason, hustle culture and,

just overworking yourself is like glorified whereas if someone had like someone was flipping burgers working in Starbucks and working at a car wash that wouldn't have the same like glossy like hustle facade but that person probably making more money it's a deep level of sacrifice to get to this point where it's like okay I have to accept that I must work three jobs I must have all these side hustles it is unfair it is unethical but that's where we're at so we to make the best of it. Can you imagine, like, you know, the thing about cameras,

like we've got these three nice cameras now. Imagine if you had to hire a video team, how much it would cost you for every episode of this. Yeah, I mean, before we even hit record, you're like, I need a producer so bad, right?

You've got to, you know, we're getting gray hairs just trying to make it happen. I mean, we fucked up. If there was a producer, I mean, I fucked up.

If there was a producer, we wouldn't have fucked up. And the thing is, like, I'm the same as you. I'm at my fucking capacity. financially for it. So people are like,

oh, just hire a producer, oh, just hire an editor, I'll do it for you. It's like, I don't have infinite money. The reason I'm doing everything, other than no one cares as much as me, like we establish,

like, it's because otherwise, then it becomes, I'm not making enough money for this, for it to be fucking financially viable. Exactly. Me doing all of these jobs makes this a normal,

like the Patreon is now like a salary job. But when you take out, for a while when you were taking out the credit card payments, it was like, this is a failing business. So all I've got is to just keep going and hope, like, it gets bigger.

And no one sees that, no one sees that fear and the struggle. We have, we're actually, we have to cut that stuff out because no one wants to see that content. No one wants to see it. So we're, they say they do,

but then you do it twice and they're like, okay, man, calm down. Yeah. And we're actively cutting out the horrible, shit that we're trudging through for you guys you know what i mean and and if we didn't y'all wouldn't be watching i mean i i did riff hard for two years before i got a paycheck how's you going going right yeah i can see that's good good for you he's balzy you gotta be balzy how many

how many other hustles you got you got riff hard uh signature guitar now with schecter so that will be like a side hustle as well i filmed some videos you know do all that stuff um how do you find with you taking time off social media how do you find that like is that being detrimental to your work or you found it hasn't hasn't really changed it

I mean the good news is is that you know brands like Schechter post on their social media you know I've been posting stories and that's you know people still see that but I mean I haven't really noticed anything you know I still posting the Riff Hard group

you know that we have um Yeah, just, it's fine, isn't it? There's videos on YouTube. You don't need to be necessarily on any of the, you know, the main three TikTok. It's weird, though, because they make you feel like you do. That's why I was interested in that. Well, Brown's an anomaly.

He's kind of a legendary entity. There's not a lot of... I wouldn't say legend. I would. Yeah, you're in the fucking... I definitely want to... You are very, very highly respected. You're in the Misha Brown-Ackle, Tocing.

This is it. There's more, but... It's not a typical experience. You worked your ass off to get to that point so you can stay off social media. I mean, obviously, it will help if I go on social media. But the part that helps is the people that don't see what you post anyway. I think that's more important, which, you know, Schechter, them posting about it, helps more with them what be posting on social media would do.

Yeah, and then, you know, all the guitar, are the guitar shops that post about it. So that's, again, more people that aren't on. my social media. So technically it doesn't really matter. Nice. It must be nice. I don't have... Yeah, I'm shallow band on Instagram,

confirmed today, shallow band, because... How do you find out? You go into your account settings and then you go into your monetization eligibility, and then in my case, it pops up a big exclamation mark says,

you're unavailable for branding content, and you're unavailable to be in the explore page, recommended in people's feeds. It's a virtual spanking. Because I've been bullying people. But actually, people have been leaving me shitty comments. I've been roasting them and then posting the exchange on the internet. And then that person has fucking reported it.

The one that got me in big trouble was wearing a typo negative t-shirt, which had like a razor blade, some pills and a noose on it. And it just had just say yes. And I was wearing the t-shirt and someone fucking reported it. Wow. Now, I'm in the fucking, till February 23rd, I'm in the, Sin bin. And that's...

I think that's another example of being cannibalized for the benefit of those at the top because now that your shadow band, you've got to pay to get your shit seen. You actually have to like reach into your own pockets just because you were defending yourself

or being yourself or talking about the shit that sucks, you know? And that's why people are afraid to talk about the shit that sucks. And I get it. They don't want to be shadow banned. You know, they don't want to receive that virtual spanking.

so it's easier to shut your mouth. Do what everyone says. I can't do it. I just can't keep my mouth shut sometimes. I feel like there will be a turn into the tide with that shit though because the toxic positivity is going to be so mental that everyone is just going to be like, wait a minute, none of this is real. And then there will be like a flick.

It's a thing that's hard to criticize. It's kind of like passive aggressive behavior. It's really tough to call it out and to assign or to quantify it. you know what I mean and because it's hard to explain it doesn't get explained and so the masses aren't able to latch on to it and to say oh this is a thing this is fucked up because it's so complicated can you imagine a world right can you can you imagine a world where people walking around say to each other's faces what people say on the internet no i can i reckon that's gonna happen because if you think about the next generation of people that's what that's what

they're like, yeah, but they don't talk to each other, do they? Yeah, but so when they have to talk to each other, they're going to be their online persona. So they're going to walk up to you and go, hair was better last week. Do you know what I mean? Like, it's kind of fucking happened. It's already happening in Germany. I was going to say that. I didn't want to call out Germany, but yeah, just go to Germany.

Hey, man, you know, you were okay, but last time was better. All right. As a run as a, speaking of shows in Germany, we're going to do the fun part of the show, because that was a really dark That was really fun for me though. And you know what? I think it was really good. People need to hear that shit. Because it's very easy to be fucking sunshine and rainbows.

But the end of the podcast now, we do a dream festival. I'm going to talk you through it. You know, people are calling it. It's the best part of the show. Why didn't you do it? So I have to do it every time. And I like it. It's a bit enjoyable.

It gets people into the mind of monuments, your influences and stuff. but also it lends itself to some little segways where we've been here for an hour and 47 minutes because of my fuck up. Yeah. So, potentially. So, you know, we'll get this done and we'll be done. Everything's still going.

We're all good. Thanks for getting us out of loading, by the way. Perfect, Mike. Fucking loading everything in, setting up his drums, setting up his mics, setting up everything. Fuck that. I just wouldn't do it. I can't believe it.

Good for him. He's a legend. Yeah, legend. But it's all right. Like, we, like, is he okay? You know what was the worst part? Yesterday, he had to wake up to do the Karnay as well. Because you can't afford a tour manager?

Yeah. Oh, my God. Well, no, no. There's not enough. Yeah, I mean, I'm glad he's taken over the Karnay. Yeah. Because I've done tour managing for a lot of tours. Now to get to the UK's.

Anyway, less bleak, but bless. Yeah. I love you, Mike. You want to talk about Brexit? Yeah. And how that's fucked everything. Anyway, no, fun. We got out, we got our, you got our,

load in we're good okay I'll give you a lift so you don't have to get an Uber back so it'll be quick I'm going to go to the gym not there anyone needs to know that

but I'm going to go train chest in a minute anyway what we're going to do it's a dream festival the only stipulation in this dream festival

anything goes as a dream it can be as outlandish as you just woke up from a crazy dream like oh I had a crazy dream I suck my own dick I can't suck my own dick in person, but I had a dream

about it. It can be that fucking crazy. I had that dream recently. That's why. Fresh in my head. Someone analyzed that. The only stipulation is that Monuments is playing the festival, so that is going to, hopefully, you're going to make your answers relative to your situation.

You can't just make a like, well, it'd be funny if everyone was on fire. You'd have to be on fire. Number one question, you can have separate answers, but we'll try and reach an agreement. Okay. Where in the world would your dream festival take place? Hmm.

I know where. I have always wanted to go to Japan because I've never been there. So I'll say Tokyo. Mine was actually Brisbane area of Australia. Nice. Gold Coast. Yeah. I love that too.

I've never been there either. So, well, you're all going... It depends. Do we want urban or do we want... Sir. For me, it's a FOMO thing. I just, I want to experience something that I haven't. I'm happy to say Japan for you, good food.

Thank you, Brown. We can go, but the thing about Japan is you can go to Australia first. It's about a seven-hour flight or something, isn't it? You can do a bit both. So we'll actually come back to your longing for Australia with that. We'll go with Japan. Monuments have never been, or you've been. I've been once.

We have not played there. Yeah. That surprised me, because you do, like, mad, like, India, South Africa, like, and by mad, I mean, just like places where are seen you wouldn't consider to be hotspots. Japan must be mad for monuments.

Yeah, I think we probably do well. Yeah, just we've never had an offer. Yeah, an offer that was worthwhile exploring. Or an offer that we wouldn't lose massive amounts of money. Ah, but Japan, I'll start to lose money for Japan, I reckon. Yes.

Once you've been, it's like, we're going again, again, it's probably Why don't you take us then, hey? I don't think we have enough money. We have to play with Japanese bands when we go. At the very least we need to be. Yeah. To get other people's flights.

Of course, but maybe it was a conversation. Maybe that's where it could be. Yeah. We wouldn't need a filler band there. No. I mean, it's too late for this one, but another one. Yeah. Okay, so we'll go to Japan.

What is, and you don't have to think about Japan here. You have to think about where have I previously done festivals or shows. What is your accommodation for this festival? Where's your ideal? Monuments is playing a show. I'm looking at you. Monuments is playing a show. What's the ideal accommodation?

Can you give me an example of what you mean by accommodation in this? So some people have just been like, I love it when I'm on tour and there's a tub in my hotel room. Okay, got it. like, some people have said like, well, it's a festival,

I'm going to camp, but I'll do fucking, you know, it can be anything. Just, if you were playing a show, what would your, you're playing a show

and the promoter has gone, I've sorted out the accommodation. And whatever that promoter would tell you that would give you the biggest fucking smile, like, have you heard about accommodation? I know.

I know. So we were at Hellfest this year, right? The best backstage. The best, well, for the headline band, have you seen it? No.

So, Gajira headline the day we played. And Dave, their tech came out because I did some tours with him. He showed me pictures of the backstage and there was a fucking hot tub. They each had individual fucking room. So yeah, that's what I want for my accommodation at a festival. I want that hot tub with clear view of the main stage. No, that's actually a hot tub with a view of the main stage has been said before. So it's a known thing.

I mean, that's because they've been to Hellfest. And the Hellfest, the closest I ever got to getting a little taste of the headliner Hellfest experience was when we played it. I made them a head headlining and I was walking past like their complex thing, which must have all the shit that you were talking about. I walked past and there was like a little sign that said physio. And it was like a physio chiropractor, like whatever the one that looks your feet is. And I just popped my head in and went, all right, what's it? What's this? And then the girl was like English.

She was like, oh, I'm Iron Maiden's physio. And I was like, can I chuck you some money and get a massage? And she was just like, well, I'll just give you a massage. None of Iron Maiden one right now. Just got a free massage. An Iron Maiden Massage. What would your idea or accommodation be? Privacy and a bed.

On your own? Yeah. I really like to have a place where I can be alone and decompress, especially when my social battery runs out. it would be nice if I'm overstimulated. I'm going to go to my zone. So I would just like an Andy zone where I don't have to be around people. I do neurodiversion.

Big time, yeah. Yeah, I'm on the spectrum. So I love meeting people and talking to people, but I'm masking all the time. And it gets exhausting. So just having an out where I can recharge is really valuable to me. I hear hot tops are really good at that. See, I don't really care for the hot tub He needs a long time.

Stop trying to drag him into your hot time. I like, you know, it feels good. You can have both of these things, by the way. I just want a comfy bed and a bunch of pillows. You know, I'm a lot. I like a lot of pillows. What you got in? The reason I said the neurodiversion thing wasn't because people that feel like that have to be,

but you mentioned a few things on this podcast. And when you came in and saw my cat, you said something and I was like, oh. Yeah. And I didn't know how to approach it. Of course. No, no, I'm totally, I like talking about it. I like, you know, being able to destigmatize these sort of things. Have you got, like, a label on it?

I guess you could say ASD1. But I also struggle with OCD, and I can give you a laundry list of crap and every medication under the sun that I've been on. But yeah, I just, I like my alone time. I like... What's in the room for this alone time, though? Can't just fucking see that in the dark, sure, sure.

Um, well, uh, you know, a TV where I can put my comfort shows on. Which are? Uh, right now, it's, uh, Seinfeld again. Nice. I'm starting to, you know, watch a lot of Seinfeld again. Um, I cycle through, uh, uh, uh, Uhaka show of my favorite anime. Um, always sunny, uh, workaholics. So you just got a nice hotel room, nice streaming services.

A humidifier. Pretty close to the venue, so you can, if you're, like, feeling overstimulated at the venue, you can just nip out. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. And also a place where, because I like practicing vocal rest, so where I just don't have to talk. And, yeah, throw some fucking honey in there, some ginger. Oh, we're going to get to that before we even get to a band.

Yeah. We've got your accommodation. What we're going to do is this is going to be just sort of like a complex thing. And then you've got a hotel, you've got different hotel rooms. Wi-Fi also. Oh, good Wi-Fi. Please. We're rigged up.

Don't you worry. Okay, so what is catering? Go on. You first. Panang for me. Thai Panang. Nice. Tofu.

Tofu Panang. Tofu Panang. Yeah. With coconut rice. All day? Is it an all day event? Yeah. And then obviously.

We've got lunch. What you got breakfast? I just want to avoid the bread and cheese. I've had enough fucking bread. It can be a bread and cheese free festival if you want, but you're going to have to give me what is in its place. Okay, yeah, granola for breakfast, you know, something like Jordans with raisins and the almonds. Oh, right.

It's good. Lunch. You can have places cater for you at this festival. You've got a favorite spot. You could have their running the catering. Yeah, you could like, yeah, P.F. Changs are coming in. They can do it if you want. Yeah.

I'm pretty happy with a tofu tie. All right. Coconut rice. I could eat that all day. Yeah, I'm pretty boring. A good steak would mean a lot to me, medium rare, from a, a place that I could never afford. Okay, so yeah, we've got them.

He wants a Gordon Ramsey steak. We'll have... I would love a Gordon Ramsey steak, yeah. Okay, we can get that for you. What's your carbohydrate that you're having with a steak, though? You know, it's funny, he said, I'm sick of bread and cheese. I love bread and cheese. I love pizza.

You know, my family's from New York, so I love a fucking slice of New York pizza from a shitty stand, you know, something about it. Yeah, but that's the thing you see. New York pizza is fucking great, and then you come in. and it's fucking shit. Yeah. We'll get the New York pizza. Maybe it's the water, but that's what I want. How many is the water?

Drew's a big one on telling us that it's about the water. Yeah, that's, it can be the only explanation. There's companies that actually import water from New York just to make their pizza. And you see it with like coffee. Like if I, if Scotland's the best water in the country. When I came up here, my coffee immediately started tasting like better. I was like, oh, the only variable is the water. I mean, you can taste it.

I mean, taste, you know, the Fiji water in the States versus that other crap. Dessani. Yeah, it's so bad. A dirty penny inside of water bottle. Okay. Steaks, Thai, granola. What are you eating for the rest of the day? I don't know, man.

I'm really just... Food is fuel. Don't really give a fuck. It's tough. Well, I do give a fuck, but it doesn't take a lot. like the New York pizza, it makes me feel like home. Stuff that makes me feel like I'm at home. That's really what I connect with is my sanctuary, my safe place,

you know, where I feel like I have the amenities that make me feel like I'm taking care of. So, yeah, yeah. Let me get some orange juice in there, some pineapple juice. Pineapple juice. Yeah, I love water. Drink was going to be my next thing. Anyone drink? Anyone drink alcohol?

Funnily. We do, but we've done... Not on this tour. On this tour, we haven't... Well, I had one beer yesterday, but it's been a completely sober tour. I'm a whiskey guy, you know? Is this out of choice?

Yeah. Yeah, because this tour is so long and grueling, and I have shitty acid reflux, so if I drink, I wake up, my voice fucking gone. But if that's not a factor, yeah, get me some fucking honey jack and a Coke. You know, that's my drink is first. I love the honeyjack.

A little bit of Lefroid on the stuff. side. Makes mark in one hand of Freud and the other go between both.

You can have a maker's mark right now if you want no no don't don't he does

want I do want it but don't fuck your show up so okay

headliners so this is I hate this this is your favorite band of all time Hans Zimmer Hans Zimmer

's headlining so sick yeah from a hot tub watching Hans Zimmer live from a hot though

yeah it's mixed in 5.1 like it was at his show it would be fucking amazing. Nice. I saw Hans Zimmer,

the best show I've ever seen in my life. Yeah, me too. Did he play Crimson Tide? No, I saw when they did Royal Albert Hall Interstellar Live. Oh, man. And they took the music out of the movie

and they played the movie on a projector and Hans Zimmer and his orchestra played the soundtrack in time. Like the whole movie, we watched the movie and every now and again you look down and we go, oh, I forgot that's the actual orchestra playing it all.

all to a click, all to the fucking thing. And before it was like, Stephen Hawking was there. It was fucking crazy. It was like Chris Nolan came out and had a little chat. It was fucking mad. Dude, there's no time for caution when he played that and he cried. It's so powerfully good, isn't it? It's so, yeah, he's headlined.

That's sick. Who's your headliner? All right, my answers suck. I'm only 30, so give me a break. My Chemical Romance, from 2005. So if you take them from that era, that's what I would want.

And I was supposed to do Frank on the podcast last week. Really? Yeah, because he was in town with L.S. Dunes. Right. Oh, wow. Didn't work out? It was their first show,

and then it kept getting pushed back. They were like, can you do 5.30 to 6.30? And I was like, by the time I get them, it's going to be 45 minutes. And they were like, well, it's fine as long as they're back by 630. I was like for the sake of honestly it was for the sake of

what these two people are going to think of me trying to rush this out in 40 like you know what's fucking like trying to rush it out in 45 minutes I was like it's just fucking not doing it right yeah and also they said you can't talk about my chemical romance and I was like oh in 45 minutes it's hard yeah but that

that would be my choice that Ben inspired me when I was a kid that probably the biggest influence of I want to get on stage and do this shit it was my chemical romance Take a minute to reflect that we're in Japan. In a hot tub, at this point, you are still at the festival. Hans Zimmer and MCR are playing.

It's pretty fucking sick. Okay. I guess my answer doesn't suck. No, that's a fucking great festival. And you know what? It's weird. It's kind of it could happen. Yeah.

Okay. Any main supports? Other big bands that you like? Yeah. I wouldn't say big, but obviously the daddies, the sugar, you know, Gajira. and if they want to eye on dissonance need to get in there

you know and fuck our brains to pieces I still listen to eye on dissonance at the gym sometimes yeah it's good again I'm only 30 give me a break the devil wars Prada from 2010 and Radiohead Radiohead's a good choice yeah I don't think radiohead are going to go on before Prada

no they wouldn't but yeah I love all areas of Radiohead in fact I'm actually I don't computer. I don't like. You're going to say you don't like Kid A. Oh no, I love Kid A.

Good. I would say Kid A, OK Computer Onwards is my prefer. You don't like the bends. I like it, but Pablo Honey is probably my least favorite. Yeah, yeah. I like in rainbows. Yeah, in rainbows. The live session, incredible.

In rainbows, I think is my one, but I've, I kind of overdid it when it came out. Yeah, me too. And now I'm like, I think I was slightly too young when OK computer came out. So I think I've revisited OK computer the most. Yeah, they really, that was like my inn for singing, was singing along to Radiohead. And The Devil was probably, you know, where we were talking about,

you listen to the singing until you can tolerate the screaming when I was in high school. That was the band that did it for me. Yeah, like they're from roots above and plagues and dear love. those albums were the ones that got me hip. I would go to MySpace and go to like some random dudes page just to hear that one song. And your parents would like let you listen to it and stuff.

Yeah, I think. They tolerate it. Yeah, that's what I mean. When they were singing, like kids can get away. It's like, yeah, but there's this bit. And the parents are, okay, then. And then it's like, okay, next. This album's called Kill.

Like that's a lot. One more band to put in there. Get them. Thrice. Thrice, nice. Good choice. Yeah. Do you listen to that new version?

No, I'm waiting to like a home. It's so good. I want to listen to it on my monitors and actually, because that might be the most listened to record ever for me. I think they played it like, I think the drum takes are like one take. Really? Yeah, it's like really live.

It's fucking cool though. But the mix is like, obviously if you're, if it's one of your favorite albums of all time, it would be like, why did they do that? But it's not a remix. It's like, it's actually redone. So it's cool. Yeah, I mean, the original was mixed by,

Andy Wallace. He can't really get any better than that, can you? It's weird after what was it on before it? It was identity crisis. Yeah. That's the jump in production value between those two albums. It's insane. Yeah. But even, you know, the album

after, Vesu, Haisu, behesu, I don't even know how to pronounce that fucking word, but that album is also glorious. It's a stacked festival. Yeah, just think. From that album onwards, artist in the ambulance through to modern day, it's just gold. Everything. Everything's just great.

Fucking, some absolutely big as fuck songs as all. As well as being like still kind of fucking heavy in places. Yeah. Okay, I need two smaller bands. Bands that maybe you are peers with that you think need more credit. You've got like a, you know, like a little wild card band. You go first. I keep on doing this.

But from 2011, Periphery, that first album. They're so big, I need a small band. All right, all right. They were small back then. Periphery can be on the fest. Sure, sure. I need like a band that fans of, the premise here is it, is a band that fans of monuments should check out.

Oh, shit. Well, they're not even... There's a band called Dwellings. They're not gent. They're more like progressive post-hardcore. but they're fucking fantastic and I think they should be a really big band.

And I'm going to say alt. Oh yeah. Alt fucking rules. They just put out an awesome single. Now I know. I hope it's that. It is, isn't it? Leave from within as well.

Is it Swedish? Yeah. Swedish word. Good for believing within going to America at last. Finally. I'd have fucking given up. I'd have given up for all those you guys as well.

Fair fucking pay. Why? Because not not because of what you've been doing. Just like, there's only, I, I, I, I'm a fucking quitter. I'm, my fucking roster of a band. It gets difficult and I go, I'm peace in. I'm fucking out. The amount of shit, and it's like, it's not, it's a compliment to you guys.

Like, the amount of shit, believe from within, being stuck on that label. Yeah, we don't know if they've talked about it. They're probably on a fucking NDA, but I'll fucking talk about it. Exactly. They couldn't get off that label by the fucking scumbag guy. They had to pay to get off. profit. Then they go out of that to a management deal, which fucked them, and they had to pay to get out of that as well. All this shit that people don't know, and they still fucking kept

going, and now they go into America. Do you know what's crazy? It's resilient. It is, because that was a very big management company. Won't say the name. Oh, yeah. They'll find out, trust me. I forget that people listen to this, and then everyone goes, so much I was mad at you. And I'm like, what did I do? You shut this. Well, that's what I say in daily life. The funny thing is, is that fell silent, recorded with the old label dude. The guy that...

Yeah. Yeah. What was the thing? He forced... I think he escaped to a different country. He did Barbados and then got arrested for armed robbery. Okay, so I can talk about him. The old label, they...

He made a label and the stipulation was that you had to record with him. In his studio. Yep. So he got the lion's share of all the money, kept all the money, and then the contracts were pretty fucking bad. Yep. And bands got stuck on it and couldn't get off. And they had to pay to get off.

I remember triggered the bloodshed had to pay to get off. It was fucking everyone back in the day. What's your after party? Ideal. You're going into your fucking room. I know this already. No party. What?

You were in a bar with me? Yeah, no, he's in the hot tub. Yeah. I've seen it done. I know that you go out for a drink. I think just close friends. you know, not a bunch of random people that I don't know. My loved ones and my cat.

What's your cat? Shout out of the cat. Her name's Archer. I only recently found out, oh, there we go. I only recently found out there's different types of cats. Yeah, she's a Russian blue mixed with some other bullshit. I just thought there was cat. I know he's just like, well, that's a brown cat.

And that's like, I thought it was different. Yeah. Yeah, just fun with friends, video games. Yeah, it's probably said the same thing. I'd actually say Mario Kart because it causes arguments. I like it. I get really fucking mad. Can I please add something that will make this more of a dream festival than,

because right now it's just a normal festival. Nothing like me. Not like me suck in my own dick with my dream. At a barcade. I should have said that. Barcades. I'll take it. I fucking love barcades.

Well, in Japan, you can dress up like Mario Kart characters and drive around in carts. in Tokyo. It's a legitimate thing. So maybe that's the other party. I would love that. Oh yeah, that would be fucking sick. And then everyone's drunk at it. There we go.

Some drunk, Mario Kart, actual cart. Real car. Racing with friends. Everything's good. Thank you for being on the Downweek podcast. I'm incredibly sorry that we had to go over because of my fuck up. I'm thrilled to be here and to talk with you as long as it takes. I'm sorry, I'll come to a show about it.

All right. everyone that is annoyed that they missed out on the beginning bit of the podcast if you went to the patreon.com for slash the downbeat and then gave me a pound and I could pay for a fucking producer so that wouldn't happen someone else would press this red button because apparently i'm fucking incapable uh nice one guys love it Craig enjoy your show is mate thank you bye