The Downbeat - VANA | GENRE-FLUID NEWCOMERS ON LORE, SOCIAL MEDIA + THE MUSIC INDUSTRY

Episode Date: July 1, 2026

My guests on the podcast this week are Vana (real name Yvonne Winckel) and her unbelievable drummer Mathieux Davis. We talk about their bonkers genre mash up, the meaning behind latest single In Your Name, the wonderful country of New Zealand and getting called an industry plant despite writing all their own songs and playing the instruments…

What's up, guys. Welcome back to the Downbeat Podcast. My guests on the podcast this week are New Zealand-based artist Varner and her unbelievable drummer, Matthew Davis. We talk about their bonkers genre mashup of music, including the new single in Your Name. We also talk about getting called an industry plant, despite the fact she writes all her own songs and plays all the instruments and has been writing songs since she was a kid. Got a little bone to pick with people getting called industry plants when they're not industry plants. and I've got a bone to pick with people who are industry plants, not getting called industry plants. Anyway, I digress. We talk about that and a bunch more stuff. Before we get started, if you like this podcast, if you are liking the weekly uploads and you think, how can I support? So this definitely keeps going. Go to patreon.com forward slash the downbeat. You can get early access to the episodes. You can get ad-free episodes.

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We got it. Check it out. As ever, this episode of the podcast is brought you by the wonderful people at Neural DSP. Neural DSP make the best guitar and bass plugins for your computer and vocals. They do vocals too. I cannot believe these things. I've recently been mucking around trying to make my own mushugur stuff with a MIDI guitar. And every single one of the plugins I tried, Archetype Gojira, Mishamansur, Tocin Abasi,

the 4-10 one, which I don't think it says it's Meshugur, but I'm pretty sure it's Meshugur. Every amp that I put on, just the default one, is just unbelievable. It's making me want to buy a guitar, I reckon I could do this. It's inspirational. If you are a guitarist or someone wanting to pick up the guitar or just looking for that next level inspiration, Neural DSP has a plug-in for you. And listeners of the podcast can get a whopping 30% of any NeuralDSP plug-in

by going to NeuralDSP.com and using the code Downbeat. Check it out. It's Varner and Matthew Davis of Varner. Not sure if it's a band or a person. We'll find out in a minute on the Downbeat podcast. A some more Go Thank you for supporting the podcast

For drinking that delicious drink Going straight Is that full unleaded Oh no you've gone What's... Unleaded That's unledded No this is 91

D's always The OG Back to Furries Back to Furries Off camera What was the furry conversation I just missed it Hello everyone

Welcome to the Downbeat Hi How's it going Zootopia Zootopia And Lola Bunny And If you like Judy Hopper

too much. You are a furry. You need to probably look further into yourself, perhaps get therapy, and come to terms with that. I didn't say that. You said that as if it was me. I said nothing. I just, is that a thing? Is she, what's on that, Judy Hopps? Yeah. But pretending like you don't know. Is that her name? Is that a thing? The little thick one. The little, the little white one. The little hot thick one. And then what did you ask? What did you ask Madison? Who did you... Nick?

I said smash your pass. Nick Wild. And I said smash. She says smash heavily. She's actually screams. Yeah, she did. So that's a furry. I've got that...

So that's a furry. Anyway, do I just call you Varner? Yeah, that's fine. I respond to anything really, but Vana works. Yeah. But the band is also called Varner. Yeah. Varner and Matt.

Yeah. Welcome to the podcast. Thanks for having us. Thank you. You are in Nashville, Tennessee. Yes. Why? Well, I've asked myself that too, but we are playing a show here.

We're on tour, my first ever headline tour, which is very exciting. And, yeah, we're performing tomorrow. The Lady and Red Tour. Lady and Red Tour. Did you do that in two legs? I've got two legs. Have you been on tour this whole time? Because I'm sure you played here like maybe six months ago.

We've been touring quite a bit. This is, we've only done one leg of the headline tour. but we were out with honey revenge and also set it off within the last year. So this is the headliner. Yes. Very first. We live in a time where like online fame or like, you know, views and stuff doesn't always translate.

Is the tour going as well as you expected? I honestly had terrible expectations. I was expecting to play to no one. So the fact that, I mean, we've had so many shows. out. Mind blown. Like, truly mind blown. I just, it doesn't feel real.

It's like dreams coming true. Fuck yeah. Yeah. What do you think? I don't know. I had a feeling that you were going to do pretty well just because, like, your fan base are, they're pretty like hardcore. Like, I love Fana.

So I had a feeling it was going to do well. Because you've been making music online for a minute. Yeah. Like, I think I first heard of you like two years ago or something. This is the first headliner. Yeah. Damn. What's your production like?

Lighting director. Yeah, we've got cryo when we're allowed to have cryo. You've got cryo? We've got fucking cryo. We've got fucking cryo. Fucking hell. It's so sick. Going home with no money, though.

Yeah, well, hopefully we get something. When we're allowed to, it's nice. You get the in the back. It's lovely. That's fucking sick. Good for you. Yeah. First tour cryo.

Can't relate. My first band, we eventually. had a confetti cannon and it was only when we went to India to play like a one-off show and they were like India. Yeah, it was crazy. It was crazy. Everyone that listened to the podcast would already know. Varner.

I'm saying it right. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, it's because you're not American. You got it. You got it right. Where's your accent? Oh, yes. You're from New Zealand?

I am from New Zealand. Yes. The fuck. Funny that. Yeah. So I was actually born in Anaheim in California and I moved to New Zealand when I was 10. So I've got a weird combination. It comes out. I can hear like the odd word.

On some words, it's that way. And it's also depending on whom I'm around, quite a sponge with it. Like even in that sentence, quite. Yeah. That was key with. Phraising is, yeah, for sure, not American. But when I'm here, I tend to become more American, especially like to translate and like to make sure my words are very clear. It's quite funny.

Our bassist, his name is Harlan, but he's very Kiwi. So he goes, Haaland. And everyone's like, Holland? Yeah, yeah. Kiwi's one of the hardest ones for Americans to understand. For sure. Yeah, people think I'm Australian. I don't know if it's that my accent softened because I'm here because I'm from the UK. Yeah, whereabouts?

Or some from Reading, which is just outside London. Nice. And it's just they look at me and in their head they're like, well, British people are peaky blinded as Harry Potter. This guy has tattoos, so surely Australian. Australian, yeah. Must be. You built this project from yourself? Yes.

Like production, learning all the instruments, making the law. Yeah. How did all that come about? I'm fucking insane. I just couldn't like, this is everything I've ever wanted to do. And like, I can't help but throw everything at this. Like, it's just since I was little, I just knew that if I didn't do this, I would have, I would be so sad.

It just wouldn't work. So like, everything I did up to this point and still like, like, is to do with this career and music and making it. Like my motto is always like, what would, because I'm a fan. I'm a fan girl through and through. And it's, I know what I like from my favorite artist. And I know what I wish my favorite artist did. And I try and constantly act as if, like, how I would want my favorite artist to act or do or get involved in their own project and stuff.

What instrument came first? Can you play every instrument? No, no, I cannot play every instrument. I can try my best, however. Can you play the big ones, though? Yeah, yeah. I can. So I started with clarinet, funnily enough.

Oh, you can't play every instrument. Clarinet, number one, the oboe. I am Squidward. Canonically, I'm Squidward. And then my dad was a guitarist, so he had a heaps of those lying around. So I kind of just picked that up. And then I played drums and youth group at school, became the youth group drummer. Terrible now.

I'm shocking now. What's youth group? Like church. Church Bible study. Are you all church? Church, church. I used to be church. I used to be church.

Of the church. And Matthew's dog is church. And. Is it okay? We're okay with this. Yeah. It's not. Everyone's allowed in here.

Yeah. Yeah. I made that joke with August Burns Red the other day. And it was fine. But also at the same time, I was like, ooh. Yeah. Probably make it again then. Sorry.

No, you're good. You're good. I love reusing jokes to new people, man. It's my favorite to do. Every time I'm, a new person. I'm like, yes.

I've got to be really careful with it because I do it all the time on the podcast. I had a bang of a Jeffrey Epstein joke the other day. And I've reused it like three times. Oh,

yeah. No, I wouldn't. I mean, out of context, that's even worse. It was like someone was saying that,

like, they obsess over their emails and stuff. True. I was like, I write like Jeffrey Epstein. And then everyone went, and I was like,

not the content, but like, you know, like the one word sentences. Yeah, anyway, sorry, back,

back, back to childhood. Yeah, childhood. So how old are you when you start learning to make music? I started producing and, like, recording and stuff like that when I was maybe around, like, 17, 18. And I started, like, learning and building my own studio when I did EDM music. Oh, interesting. Yeah, EDM music is huge in New Zealand and, like, UK and everything, you know, it's all. And everyone in their fucking cousin and their dog is a,

fucking DJ and makes EDM music and so I had a heaps of mates I was trying to get involved in the scene and he's mates were like yo like can you top line this? I was like yeah yeah I'd love to because you know I was trying to get my foot in the door somehow so that's how I kind of learned how to

track everything myself and at least on the kind of PC version of music you know yeah can you explain top line because there'll be some people that don't know what that means toplining is like writing melodies and lyrics to a song that is already made. Huge in Nashville.

Because people say it all the time and I'm like, I really should actually next time someone mentions it, I should clarify. That is the hook of the song. Yeah, yeah, for sure. And especially like EDM music, quite often. They'll have the track and they'll just send it off to someone to Top Line and MC on it and

you know, make it a finished product. Yeah. So that's kind of how I kind of got my foot on the door with that. Matt, what about you? What's your upbringing musically. There were no musicians in my family. I actually in 2009 my parents bought us rock band. One of those. Yeah, bro. Yeah, I always just like loved playing the drums on rock band. I remember the very last song on rock band was Painkiller and it had like the five star difficulty. And Pan killer starts with like that drum solo. Yeah. And I was like, bro. Judas Priest for anyone doesn't know.

Judas Priest. Pain killer, six song. But yeah, I was like, I need to learn the drums. And so you You've got five stars, sorry to cut in, you've got five stars on Judas Priest's Pain Killer on rock band before you even had a drum kit. No. That was like the difficulty. Oh, yeah. It was like five stars out of five stars for the difficulty. But no, I didn't think I got past like medium on that. But funny enough, I could finally almost play it now.

You still playing rock band? No, no, no, the actual like the drumming. Oh, okay. But we were playing something similar. Yeah. Yeah. We like to go to arcade and play guitar hero at least. Yeah, yeah. But yeah, that was my musical upbringing.

My mom, she bought me a $50 drum kit off a Facebook marketplace. And they allowed me to play drums in the house. Like whenever I wanted, they were super understanding to a point where, like, my dad would ask, like, where's Matthew at? My mom's like, do you not hear the drums downstairs? So, like, they were able to drown it out. Similar to me. Yeah. Everything, every bit of success I've ever had realized on the fact that they could zone.

out the drums. Neighbors couldn't, but they could. Yeah, yeah. Our parents are superheroes when it comes to that. Fuck yeah. Your music pulls from almost every genre I can think of. What genre do you refer to Varna as? I think the one that makes the most sense is pop metal. I feel like that embraces. I've had trouble trying to explain it to people, especially like, you know, when your fucking parents, like, friends were like, what kind of music to you, make. And I'm like, um, you know, like metal, but kind of. You have.

And they go, oh, okay, like Metallica. I mean, you're like, yeah, I am. Metallica. I am Metallica. Something else. That's our favorite thing to say to people when they ask like strangers when they're like, because people clock us immediately. Are you guys in a band?

Like, yeah. They're like, what's your name? Metallica. Metallica. And they're always like, oh, okay. Oh, what do you get at the border? Are you dual nationality? Yeah.

Oh, so you don't get the grilling I get at the border. No, I'm in. Because my visa, my visa is like, alien of extraordinary talent. True. So they're like, oh, what do you do? And I'm like, playing a band or whatever, now it's a podcast. But playing a band. And then I'm like, oh, what kind of music?

And then it's like, is it like Pantera? And I'm like, I just have to go. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's exactly like, I'm like, what's it called? Now I tell them, and I'm like, please don't Google it. Please don't Google it.

Police officer, I'm going to be in so much trouble. Matthew. Yes. Matthew? Matt. Yeah, Matt, Matthew. Spelt so good, though. Yeah, thank you.

John, my parents. I didn't know if you were going to come in and it's going to be like, it's actually Mathieu. Matier. Matiul. Yeah, yeah. Kind of sir. You should do it.

With all this genre stuff going on, was there any of the genres that are in the music that were difficult for you to learn? Honestly, I feel like I've always been drawn towards heavier music. Um, I started off playing like Memphis Mayfire was like my first foot in the door with like heavy stuff. And then I immediately jumped to like August Burns Red learning stuff like from messengers. Freak. Um, yeah, bro, it was ridiculous. But, um, honestly, now I'm finding it like more difficult to learn like gospel stuff, like gospel chop stuff.

You're good at it. Yeah. Thanks, man. I've seen it on Instagram. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, I'm trying to get, um, you know, Xavier where? Yep.

Yeah. He's just, anytime I watch his video. Who plays for Bill Murray now? Is it Josh? Josh Doobie? I know his Instagram name. Josh from Issues. We're going to go with Josh from Issues.

He did when they went out with Bad Omen's. It's a different drummer now for this tour that they just did. But yeah, I can't remember his name. But Xavier did it before. Yeah, Xavier did it on their U.S. run before the Bad Omen. I think Josh did it in Europe and then now he has another drummer. And Xavier's playing for suicidal. Correct?

Yes. Guys are fucking. He's insane. He's got a little gospel pack, like a PDF thing. Really? I think he sent it to me and I might have ghosted him. Oh, no. No, but I think it was like, I was busy.

Yeah. And he pulled it up and I was because I'd asked him about it before. And I was like, I'm happy to pay for it. And I think he sent it and I was busy. And now I just remembered I ghosted him. Yeah. Running joke on the podcast, I ghost, unbelievable people. I'm the worst for it.

Yeah, I'm pretty bad at it too. I get nervous. because people were replied to me and then I'll be like I have to wait until I have a perfect moment to reply because this is insane and then I'm like it's just gone

and I'm like oh fuck I'm a horrible person I should fucking die oh my god I'm so busy they're probably like fuck this bitch man fuck you

is you fucking diva bro do you think genre labels are important anymore sort it out man grow up Get over it, man. Yeah. I literally, bro, like, the man,

this isn't metal, this isn't pop, this isn't, but I don't. Do you get this isn't pop? Yeah. Really? Yeah. Because people will be like, this isn't really metal, is it? And then someone will be like, well, it's not pop, is it?

And then people, well, it's great for the engagement. So actually keep it up. Yeah. Please keep it up. I scratch that. Keep it up, man. Labels are so important. Fight in my comment section.

I feel like they're important to a point. Yeah. But like I think people shouldn't have such a chip on their shoulder about like a new. I haven't actually heard pop metal before. I mean, a lot of people think it's kind of like a bit of a juxtaposition. You know, pop metal, a lot of people think metal is like the antithesis of pop. But I disagree. I think that pop is like, I love pop music.

I love R&B music. I love hyperpop. I love metal. I just love music. So I think it's fun blending it all. Because like I feel like, especially nowadays, I feel like modern metal needs it. And I'm excited to see what people start blending into metal

because it's so fun to do it. You know? Like metal is all about being like not normal and, you know, away from the mainstream. So embrace that. Have you got a word in Kiwi or like in New Zealand? for like people who listen to heavy music. You know, like slightly derogatory,

but taken back from the people. Because we have one in the UK that I just explained to Madison the other day. What's it? so like a griebo in the UK is someone who it just listens to metal. like I have a bunch of fucking grieboes over there. I would self-identify as a griebo. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Is there one in Kiwi? I actually don't think so. There's like quite, in New Zealand at least like the of heavy scene is very much like giving dad rock like akadaka like acadacca like aced-c stuff you know um so there's not really it's just kind of like emo's i guess like emos yeah i guess emos is like world renown now is just someone that looks like all of us like where's that can i swear you can say

everything except the c word oh you're gonna say you're gonna say yeah no i got and you know what it's always Australian, British or New Zealand guests. Because I say it all the time in the daily life. And I've got a video was demonetized for hate speech against women. North Lane, famous, famous hate. They hate women. But it was just because they said the sea words. What were you going to say without that word?

Can you bleep it? Yeah, I can bleep it. I guess what we'd say is they would just call it as weird. Yeah, there we go. I'm a woman. They can't. Right. The algorithm doesn't care.

Also, if they get demonetized, it doesn't really matter. Well, I'm so thirsty. I need to hydrant. I'm strangely energized. Interesting. So flavorful. If you are looking for one festival to hit in 2026, make it louder than life. I went last year, and I've got to say, it's probably one of, if not the best rock and metal festival I've ever been to.

It's taking place this year as ever in Kentucky. at the Highland Festival Grounds in Louisville and it's going to have over 160 bands over six stages. It's four days. Whether you're into iconic headliners like Toll and Limp Biscuit or you just want to watch the best band in the world Gojira, louder than life has got the lineup of the year. I'm going to be there with the podcast,

so go check out the lineup. Let me know who you want to see, who you want me to talk to, but let me know very quickly because I have to plan these things. I will see you there. Get your tickets at louder than life festival.com. Back to the show. Where did the obsession with law, fantasy, and world-building come from?

Is that a good question? That's a great question. Madison's freaking robbing our hands as well. I'm a fantasy nerd, so I can't wait to hear that. Do you want to say the band? Three, two, one. 21 pilots. That's Madison's favorite band.

No way. I knew I loved you. I knew we were all going to click I felt it We're all going to click you said Yeah We're going to click Or something like that

Yeah yeah I don't know what click means That's what the listeners That means you're mentally fine I think The followers are toilet pilots We're called the click Yeah

And they call themselves like clickies Yeah I see I have learned of the law But film film me in on the relationship From 21 pilots to you all guys So I guess my favorite bands and like stories and stuff all have a like sort of bigger thing that they all build towards and I love things that are like I'm a big collector and a big like fucking like fantasy nerd and stuff so

I love storytelling and I and I love like when bands have albums that connect or something you know or cryptic things that you have to solve and again that comes from me being a fan of things I want to have that and I want my fans to be able to experience my music in not just an audio way. Like I want it to be interactive. And it also helps me like kind of fantasize my story and life.

And so it's like as I'm, you know, writing more vulnerable music and getting into the nitty gritty of my actual life and story and such. Like it allows me to be vulnerable in a way of like exaggerating details or something like that and fantasizing it. So it feels easier to write about like that, but that's just about me. But like, yeah,

I just love lore. I think it's cool. I think it's fun. And I think that I love, yeah, I just love when people can interact with it. You've destroyed one of my questions, kind of.

And when I come back to it, you'll go, you just took that from what I just said. But my research is written here in plain English. But on this law thing, Is there a story yet that you've made? Yes. But is it out there yet?

No. It's for the album. It's for the albums. Oh. I'm thinking ahead. Clancy. I am Clancy. But it's in that realm of like there's a thing.

When do you unleash it? When does the story come out? Legally, I can't say. Really? I was going to say, Quayo on fucking poor wine. Legally, I can't say this. I was like,

fuck this bitch, bro. If you didn't fucking play your own instruments, I'll be like, episode over. Not coming out. Episode over, you're done.

What do you actually do, man? What does she do? When are you going to unleash the story? So I'm releasing it. I'm treating each album like a chapter almost. Okay. And each album will release like a part of the story. And they're all going to link.

And I'm going to release plot by, like fucking cryptic puzzles and the 21 pilots thing yeah I'm so inspired is it all planned out you got it planned out got everything planned out god that's so cool yeah that is really cool thank you thank you so much yeah it's been over that's why this like album has been taking a while it's because I want to make sure everything is perfect before it comes out because you only get to do your first album once and I don't want to waste that chance yeah and I've got eyes on me now and it's scary but I want to make sure I put my whole fucking like vanozy into it bro. I was wondering where you were going to go.

Von Nussi. I was wondering where you were going to go. That's where I went. Nice. Perfect. So it's all, I like the fact that's all planned out. Yeah.

I think it's a great move and it obviously, you can get to fulfill this like fantasy side. Yeah. Currently you're not writing a book, but you kind of do get to do that story time. Yeah. That's kind of fucking sick. Thanks, man.

Are you going to have like Easter eggs? Fuck yeah. What if they don't get them? Then they're fucking stupid. You won't leak them? Eventually, like, if there's a bunch of shit that no one got, I'll make a fucking passive-aggressive-aggressive video talking about all the shit.

You dumb motherfuckers. You fucking idiot. I was about to say see what again. You fucking idiots. I might be a leak. I got the Google Doc. Yeah, you do. Yeah, just have someone.

Anonymous. Reddit account. Does anyone ever seen? Make sure you're logged out. Does you've seen how this relates to this? Have you seen at two minutes 30? I think that's awesome. So they're in the videos you already have for this record. There's two for this record, right? That are currently out. Is there already things in there that are going to relate to the story? So much. People don't know what they are. People have no idea. Can you tell me like one thing?

There's a character in the pre music video who is very integral to the plot who will be a appearing in a lot of the other videos. Yeah. Skoop. Yeah. Madison's like, this is the sick of shit. And this time it's a girl. That's cool.

Good for you. That's fucking awesome. Thank you. So the production that you're talking about right now, cryo. Insane, by the way. I'm just jealous. And does the production tie into this? To the law?

Yeah, into the law. Not yet. I wanted it to. But that will be saved. for when I can afford it. Basically, like, eventually it'll be a show that I will be super proud of and a production that can involve lots of cryptic things like interludes and this and that.

And, you know, when we play venues big enough for a screen, so much can be done on a fucking screen. It'll upscale with time and, like, ability. You're going to upscale and the money that you take home is going to go down. Go down, bro. I invest into the art. I'm calling it an investment. fucking awesome.

We saw MCR the other day and they had like no production. Really? But like because the story is so well known right now as Black Parade in full. Yeah. And they had like a couple of people on stage and all I could think about the whole time was like

they'll make you so much money. There's no. Like I saw Lorna Shore in a smaller stage with all the video shit and I was like didn't get paid and then I'm watching MCR and I'm like, whoa. Getting paid. That's a fucking new pool.

Yeah. That's kind of sick. Can you then like later on I assume if I assume you're the main character in yeah yeah you can you can re-invent it what did you say it's a narcissistic narcissistic fem cell that's what you can like you can reinvent it later on you could just be like and guess what I can just it all looks like this now I can literally say anything and it it goes are these guys in it yeah connected to the law what about the masks it's all connected masks are in the law yeah yeah what's it like playing in that thing actually not that bad

I would say the worst thing isn't like the vision. It's just the smell. Really? Yeah, because all the production man is going to cry out of not fucking laundry. Yeah, bro, we just can't wash them. Cry is only like 200 a night. Why can't you wash them? I'm sorry to keep going on back.

I'm just jealous. We need to wash them. Okay, first of all, when I wore a mask, because I'm not wearing them on this leg of the tour because it kept getting coated in my hair. I need to figure out a sort of quick release mechanism. Budget hasn't has been raised for that yet. However, when I was wearing a mask, we did wash them.

So I won't say... Yeah, she's not wearing a mask on this tour, so the boys... We haven't watched them yet. So what, you can wash them? You just haven't. Yeah. That's on you, bro. It is.

True. I should wash that today. Because you must sweat into it. It's bad. But the plane's not bad. I've always wanted to do a mask. I would say, like, my peripherals are cooked. Like, I'll...

On one of the songs... Yeah, I hit a bell a lot. I miss it, like, 80% of the time. What ride you got? Got a 22-inch dark ride. I got a fix for you. A big pretty thing. 21K projection ride.

That's the one that you made was Zilder, isn't it? Shout out Zildjian. That belt's big as fuck. Really? Yeah. I might do that. I've got one here. True.

I don't have it in the fucking room, but I got one in Nashville. Oh, sick. If you want to try it. Yeah, I'll give it to go. If you want to try, I've always wanted to do a mask band. A mask band or a makeup. Cup band. Yeah.

I think it's sick. I just love the drama of it. Yeah. Because it's so inherently silly. Screaming on a fucking stage. I feel like a fucking idiot. I've got fucking red hair. It's a joke.

I'm a joke. Might as well fucking lean into it. There's that fucking Kiwi. Straight fucking out. Look at this. Look how fucking good we are together. Yeah, it's beautiful. Have you got any grand ideas in the tank

you can't pull off until the band get bigger? You just answered that. And you're going to do that thing where you're not going to let me know because someone will steal it. I've got so much planned. And it's all about like locations and travel. Like I want to hide shit all over the world, bro. Geocaching. Oh, that shit, bro.

That's stupid shit that I want to do because that's fun. But like, I can't fly over the world right now. How would you then leak where it is, like an Instagram post or an app or what? All of that website, like click a pixel here, which leads you to a secret website, which leaks coordinates, which does this and that. Numbers, I will send out, like, real-life mail, snail mail, if you will. Paper, could you believe it? Paper, paper.

Paper. On the other side of the world. Handwritten. Not from New Zealand to America, though, because that fucking, that tax is fucked up. but I will be sending... Fucked up. Sorry. Couldn't help it.

It's fucked up. That's really key with. I'll send it all. Like, I'll do it all. I think it's fun. I wonder if anyone ever gets in trouble with the coordinate shit. Like, what if you drop a coordinate

and two people turn up and they're like mega fans and one of them like stabs the other one? They have to kiss or kill each other. Kiss or kill. Survival the fittest at that point. True. You know you can get away with that.

If there's a guy in a band going out, here's the coordinates, you've got to go and kiss. And everyone will be like, uh, canceled. Okay, so you ruined this question, but I'm going to ask it again because it relates to the actual song. Listen to this compared to what you said.

True. In your name explores toxic love, grief and the pain of holding onto something harmful. When you're writing in emotionally dark territory, are you processing personal experiences or creating characters? I would say, yeah, it's a bit of both. And it's like, the story that I'm writing is an exaggeration of what I've been through. and like my own life. And like, I think my first sort of music and stuff felt very much removed from myself

and felt very written in an aesthetic or like in a camp or in a funny way or like a rage bait way, which is fun. And it's so fun to do. But I have so much to say. And now that I've had people's attention, I can finally say it and be taken seriously about it, which is awesome.

But it's also terrifying. It means I have to reopen wounds and, you know, rub salt to them. And it's the pain of being a musician. It's like when you're going through a shit time, but you get such good art from it and you're like, fuck. Like, I feel so shit, but also, this is awesome. This song is so good. Yeah. But it's a skill that I think it's a muscle that I'll continuously exercise and build and train and, like, learning to be vulnerable.

And learning to be honest in songwriting is something that will always be something that, you know, I'm testing and figuring out. But in your name is definitely the most emotionally charged and vulnerable. That's been released at least. Based on real events. Yeah. But jazzed up. Jazzed up. Jazzed up for the law.

Yeah. I feel like with like a law-based band as well, you not that longevity should be on your mind, but you're not really going to run out of that. ideas because you can just make new ones up. Yeah. Yeah. Which I always struggled writing lyrics for Stray because it was always on what's going on in the world. And sometimes you'd want to have a character that you could make instead of being like, okay, what's horrible right now?

And then you have to read into it, like you said, like open up the wounds and stuff like that. And then sometimes you just run out stuff. It's like nothing going on. So I'm going to write about the fucking gas prices. Yeah. Like, you could just jealous of the cryo, jealous of the law.

And you can steal it. Can't pay any other fucking instruments. You're gonna get red hair next time. I've just gone from blonde to brown. People are either happy or not happy. A lot of people at festivals saying, you look really different. And then I go, okay.

And it's not like, it's good though. They're just going, yeah, just different? Okay, that's bad then. Thanks. Thanks, guys. We got you. You look great, Craig. Like made them, bro. I fished for.

I fish so hard. It wasn't a real fucking fish. Anyway, thank you. Appreciate you guys. Do you see, I mean, I fucking, you answered that. You're too good. Press fucking trained.

I've not done at all. I just stream. Yeah, but no, so do I. It's so good for, like, public talking, streaming. I don't know, you just get more of a grasp on how normal people speak because you say something, you get a reaction

fucking straight away. Yeah. My sister, when I was living with her, I should be like, you talk so fucking much. You better make a fucking job out of it. I was like, yo. Did you start streaming games or just yapping? It was just yapping, man.

Just like not shutting the fuck up. And then, yeah, games eventually. As my PC was able to be built, I was fucking poor, man. And so like as soon as I could afford a PC that could run games, then I started gaming. Yeah. Yeah. Did you find the yapping streams do better than the gaming ones? Yes.

Same. Yeah. It's crazy. Yeah, no. I don't even game anymore on there because no one cares. No one gets a fuck. Because they want to say... I'm not good at it.

What did... How do you do your hair? Come to Brazil. Come to Brazil. I want to, bro. You ever been? No. I really want to.

Me neither. South America's like the last thing I haven't done. And I wanted to do it before Stray broke up. And here we are. Bucket list. They would be so happy as well. Come to Brazil, people. Yeah.

Came to Brazil. Yeah. You better fucking show up. Because there's enough for you. I mean, you can just do the reunion tour in Brazil, surely. We ain't, I'm a reunion. You are so good at guiding this conversation. With the community.

I control the universe. What can they say? With the community you've built through Discord, Twitch, TikTok, fucking Instagram, all that shit. Was there ever a point when you thought, fuck, maybe I should have done like the anonymous mystic, mystical vibe? Literally, like almost every day, I would be like, fuck.

Like, I look at all these bands that are so mysterious. And they're like, like, yo, that's sick. You can't do it. I can't put the genie back in the bowl. I cannot shut up, though. This is the problem. I just really can't, like, I've, you know how much of the album I've leaked on stream? Just because I've had a beer.

And I'd be like, yo, you guys want to hear the whole out? You guys want to hear everything. That's sick, though. There's not enough for that. It's fun. It's not fucking serious, man. It's like the people who are watching my stream deserve it. Like, they're on my album, sorry, they're on my stream, like spending 24 hours doing a sub-a-thon with me.

Like, yeah, you can fucking hear a song early. You did a 24-hour one? I've done a couple, yeah. Yeah. That's rough. Yeah, I did take, like, hour naps upstairs and kind of put on some cocoa melon for the viewers to watch until I got back down. That's not 24 hours. Maybe, yeah, they're about.

18. 18-hour sub-a-thon. How do you balance the parisocial side of doing? It's hard. It's hard because I find that I'm also parasocial with my fans. There's like a certain group, especially that have been like, I call them the OGs. They call themselves, I think they call themselves Vanipayers. Vanipayers, is it not Van.

Okay. And like, they're always, they travel to a bunch of shows and, you know, they shoot the shit with us. And like they've, I feel like I know them. I don't. So same goes. Like, they don't know me either. But like, it's cool having these fans who have. kind of been there since day one and i don't know i think especially when i've shared so much of

my like life and upbringing and also like career starting from one to now like it's hard to not feel like they they have that you know say of like yeah i was a day one because it feels that way it's cool nice yeah you're massive on social media as well a little bit fucking i look today you got like how many followers you got on instagram three 381,000. Where'd that come from? I used to do a series called like obnoxious drummers,

which many drummers have like done. I just called it that. It's basically me just playing different genres of music over like a pop song. So I would have like... I remember them. Yeah, yeah. A drummer who plays a whole bunch of Tom stuff,

pop punk drummer, surf beat. But then that kind of got old. And then I started doing like the church metal drummer stuff. And that's what like really popped off. When the church accidentally hard. Yeah, when the church actually actually hires a metal drummer. And that, I'm thinking

I'm on like part like 20 something now. But it eventually like sort of transformed it to like us or me and my buddy Santiago like actually making like covers like fully like recorded covers of songs and sort of putting them out there like on streaming.

And it's like it's not for money. It's just sort of like sort of something people to listen to like a good refresher in the Christian music because a lot of Christian music nowadays is just like really droney and boring musically like the words are the words are great but I feel like music wise it could use a little bit um a little refreshing so you got pop metal when we got christian metal yeah um how do you monetize that like that many followers like is it

because a lot of people will be thinking oh you get 300,000 followers like you must be making shit loads of money oh man I should show you my last Instagram statement I think it's like five cents well I got one cent I got at 4.5 million views, I got one cent. That's bad. I don't know if I'm on like the blacklist or something. No, send it all at once. I know, right.

Instagram, honestly, it used to like 2021 to 2023 was great. The bonus. Yeah, the bonus program. And then they took it away and then they brought it back. And now you basically get like pennies. I can't even get into the bonus program anymore. I like signed up to it, but it wasn't in the UK. And then now it's back.

Yeah. Same thing. Now it's back. I can't fucking... Tough tetties. You're in New Zealand. There's like a fast track one now called like Creative Fast Track.

And they're supposed to give you a grand a month for three months. And it's like any one, apparently anyone, it's classic meta. Fuck you. Yeah, yeah. They're supposed to give people with 100,000 followers or more that post X amount of reels a thousand dollars a month for three months in order. And you're supposed to post like whatever 20 reels in the month. You heard about this?

Hey. So you can Google it. It's out there, right? But the web page, classic matter, the web page to sign up is broken. So you go on it and apply here. It takes you back to your Facebook page.

Please log in. You log in. You're back at your profile page. I actually think I've been through this loop. Every fucking time. It was like, we're reviewing your application. They're like,

put your name in a TikTok now. And I did it. I felt like a fool. Are you both on TikTok? What's that? TikTok. Never heard. Okay, let me rephrase.

Are you both big, big on TikTok? Yeah. The TikTok money's kind of good. I never got it. Me either. What? Yeah, I, dude, there was a time, bro, I was doing millions a day, millions of views per day.

That would have been so much money. But unfortunately, I live in fucking Middle Earth. And they were like, no, too bad. They didn't monetize anything. So, went, right. Even when I joined like the TikTok creator program, like I noticed a down spike, downspike. Downward trend in my, in my views. Nice.

Really? Yeah. And then so I left it. But honestly, the majority of the money that I make from social media is doing brand deals. Like I'm not getting paid from like Instagram or TikTok. It's just like basically my social media is like a resume for brand. and then that's where I get the majority of my money. That's how I pay for my wedding.

Yeah, we've heard Facebook. Facebook Reels apparently. Yeah, Facebook has been a lot better with that. I've got 52 bucks from Facebook today. Which is still not amazing, but it's better. Considering they're the same company and I've got way less views on there, it is better. What I will say about TikTok, though, is so I know all this shit because I live on the internet, toxicly online.

Everyone is coming for YouTube right now So long form is where The hack on TikTok is to do one video That gets 300,000 views over one minute long So if it was one minute and one second long And this is it, this is it Over one minute and one second long Over one minute and one second

Sorry, so over one minute long I thought they were punishing over one minute No TikTok is coming for YouTube now So once you get a video video over 300,000 views. Is everyone making notes? For one minute. Okay, okay.

So, okay. So then what happens? Once you get one that pops off over that, assuming it doesn't have like copyrighted material in it. Yeah. You get invited to one of their like creator programs, but it's a rewards program for long form content because they're coming for YouTube.

Interesting. And the rewards bonus is fucking amazing. So like you can see what. see what the ads thing is on it i'll pull one up yeah i need to see this except i i had a video i had a video last year and this doesn't happen all the fucking time before everyone goes i'm leaving the patreon because he's rich i had a video last year that got 1.2 million views and it was a minute and a half long now the video was the comments were people fucking angry at each other and arguing that works yeah but i i i can't i can't i can't i can't

bring as a podcaster, I can't bring myself to be the podcast guy that posts the inflammatory clip. I hate it. That makes one of all podcast guys. That's what I'm trying to do. That's what I'm trying to do. You're not like the other podcast guys. The one time I did it and that's why people want to come on the show because there's no, they know it's not a gotcha moment. But the one time I did it, 1500 bucks, one video. Whoa. Okay, so one the other day. This isn't even that many views, right? Forty-five thousand views on this. Say something controversial now. Let's get their money out of that.

It's just 45,000 views, right? It's not that many views. $54. So if you stuck a zero on that, that's going to be $540. I had a bang on the other day, I think. Oh, TikTok bin. And then you click on it. Ed.

Okay, even this one's 67,000 views. 92 bucks. Are these all videos under or over one minute? Over one minute, yeah. And my one's under. Okay, so I can see right here, okay, standard reward $11.90, which is probably what you'd see off that many views.

Additional reward, $80.11. What? So my TikTok ends up making me about $500 a month at the moment. Wow. It's like, shit, I don't even use it. I'll just upload a video to it. Wow. But long form TikTok, that's the fucking move.

But you need long form and you need people to keep. Yeah. Is it the same with the, copyright stuff on TikTok? Like, can you do like, what's your long form? Is it just your podcast? Yeah. Anytime I've tried drum stuff, hasn't got the crazy views and the copyright thing comes up. But if you're doing music with your buddy, that is not on the algorithm, right? Just make it one minute and one seconds long. Yeah. Get one that pops off. Great to know. There you go, guys. There's a little fucking side segue into making the back. I want to know, though. This is the, this is the, this is the, this.

This is, and everyone on here, I want to know if and when it works. Yeah. I want to know what the bag was. Okay. You said, give me 10%. No, no, no, no. I don't want to present it. I just like...

This information was not free. I don't want a percentage at all. I just love to see people fucking winning. And especially in this fucking climate of like the algorithm, this shit, merch cuts, all this stuff. When someone goes like, fuck merch cuts. Hey, I made this video on TikTok and it made me this much money.

I'm like, fuck yeah. Good for you. Hey, shout on Chris. Greg Rennel's guys, he is not a gatekeeper. I'm not. I am slightly, but not the people deserve it. What do you like gatekeeping? I gatekeep to people who don't deserve it.

True. Okay. And I should like, I'll gate, one of the main things I'll gate keep is the people that make the downbeat merch. Because it took me fucking six months this year to find a new factory and get everything sorted. And then random people who are like, acquaintances are like, who does your merch? Shut the fuck up.

Stop talking. Why don't you fucking figure that out yourself? Yeah. You can pay me. You can fucking pay me for the six months work I did finding this and sampling everything to get the right fucking ethical Chinese factory. But like, do you know what I mean? It is ethical.

I made them do a walk through. I was like, walk me through this factory. And I was like, yep, yep. Because I was like, better not be no fucking kids in here. Yeah. Can I say fucking kids in that context? It's in. Not related to Epstein.

It's in. Simon, you can bleep though. It's very close to Epsilon now. Let's do the upload. And if it gets flagged, let's re-edit and leave this in. Do you get called an industry plan? Fuck yeah. All the time.

But I actually get a lot of people defending that. Defending what? Defending like my name. Oh, okay. I thought you meant like defending the fact time in industry plant. I was going to say you just told me you play all your fucking instruments. Yeah. Well, I think it's because like I've documented everything since like ages ago.

So people who actually like fucking put in the time and effort like actually know that I've been doing it for a while. Bro, you know what pisses me off is some music reviewers hidden the hidden the, I wonder who actually writes her music. Bro, read the credits. It's right there. I'll say this to anyone watching. you wouldn't be on, because there are some industry plants out there. Right.

You wouldn't be on here if you were one. Thank you. There's no fucking chance. But I wonder who actually writes the music is horrible. Yeah, I mean, I get a lot of that. Like, what do you actually do sort of thing? What does she even do? What does she even do?

Why? Okay, let's put it to bed. How do you write a song? How does Avana song get written? I literally have my ADHD meds. I go into my office. I black out everything. Prescribe, actually.

Thank you very much. Prescribed. Yeah, you can crush them up. Sorry. Keep it in, timing. Carry on. And I open my thesaurus. I open my fucking online thesaurus.

Ratpad.com. Get amongst it. Get amongst it. Ratpad. Ratpad.com, bro. It's got some lists of words and synonyms and it's great. And I get poetic. And I find my theme.

And I find what I'm going to write about. and I top line in my room and I'm in there. You go top down. Top line. No, but I mean, as in like you were thinking of the lyrics and the top line before you've even written any music. Yeah, sometimes. That's weird. Sometimes.

Or I get, um, I get a, me and my producer, like, we work very, like, remotely because he's fucking everywhere all the time. He's in Mag Park. Um, his name's Vince and he's awesome. Um, one of my best friends. And I, I'm obviously like in New Zealand recording. So we just do Discord sessions, get like a minute demo done. And then I ride over that, chop and change it. It go break down here.

And this is the chorus. Send it back to him. He does his stuff. I go back. I track everything. Set it back forth, back, forth, back forth until we end up with a product. Are you recording physical instruments at yours? Sometimes.

I tend to do most of my vocal tracking. And like if I have ideas and I tend to do, there's going to be a lot of acoustic stuff on the album, which I'm very excited about because that's kind of where I kind of came from was just riding on my little shitty Yamaha. In my head, it's Kiwi, like,

that's fucking, that's Hawaii, isn't it? I was going to say ukulele. They're both islands. Yeah. Give me a break. It's basically the same, man. It's just... I can't say that these days.

Can't fucking say that these days. Just an island. So you're back and forth on Discord and then at what point does it get to Matt? When it is needing real drums. So at the end, so right now we have a song that we are, We're wondering whether or not we could do it without tracking real drums.

And we listen back and we're like, fuck no. It just sounds like a... Good for you. You're ticking all the boxes there for me. Because a lot of people in your genre of pop metal and people don't know this, fucking 90% of them, that's just programmed drums. Yeah. Sometimes my plug in, so I'm okay with it.

Do you just let him put his thing on it? Yeah, I mean, it's just like it sounds so much better, man. And it's like, yes, it saves time. But it's like, if I wanted to save time, I would have already done an album. And I'm like, if I'm going to wait, I might as well just do it all right. And we're on tour right now. We can't record it. But as soon as we're done with tour before warped, like, he's going to go home and track it.

And there's a couple bits and bobs. And I'm like, change that. And I'm like, make sure it's playable, first of all. Make sure it's actually playable. Yeah, you and the fucking producer. Three crashes here at the same time. About 80 Tom hits in the chorus. That sounds about right.

That's why I'm like, Matthew, like, make sure it's playable. do what you think sounds the best and just put your funk on it, bro. Like, just stank it on it. Stank it up, dude. So when, what's your approach to learning these when they come to you? Pretty much, I'll use a Moises just, can I even say that on here? That app, it's like a stem separation app. Why couldn't you say it?

I don't know, I don't know. Because it's AI. I guess it is. It's a fucking great, you can say it. They haven't given me any money, but I'll take money if you want. It's the one where you can just be like, I don't want the drums anymore. Yeah, yeah. Okay.

Yeah. And I'll take that and I'll solo the drums. And Moistice's, you can like break down like kick snare symbols, all that. Yeah. And you can slow it down. And so like I'll learn it like that and I'll loop sections. And then I'll pretty much go section by section,

like record the chorus versus stuff like that. So do you record what they've written or do you then put your thing on it? Or in your name. I think that, because for pray, I pretty much played like beat for beat. But in your name, I added like a few effect symbols just because that space. sounded a little empty.

And so, and that made it into the final cut. I was like, yes, they didn't take it out. Yeah. So, yeah. Also, it's like, why would you have such a rip a drummer if you're not going to use it? Literally. And look at the biggest fucking pop metal band in the world right now, sleep token. That motherfucker shreds.

That sounds. And it's like a big part. We're actually a sleep token. We are sleep token. And there was for a while, right? I mentioned, I think I mentioned on a stream in the pandemic that I was actually the sleep token drama before everyone knew who it was. And when you Googled Sleep token drummer,

I came up for about a year at their height is like when they were just coming up. I love lying. You want to bust a lie out right now? I'm Vessel. I am too from Sleep Token. Hear about the shit that Blackwell Brides got about that. About what? So he joked on stage that they were Sleep Token and everyone was throwing a bitch fit.

You're not talented enough to be that. People got to write about it. Everyone was freaking the fuck out. That's crazy. Wow. Here's the thing that Andy has, I mean, doesn't have that I have, is I look exactly like vessel. I've got the height for it. True.

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Plus, that signature. Wait, for this price, moment. Old Navy's drapy denim wide leg. It's all there. It's all there. And I'm British. Put a barb on. Yeah.

Just put the hood up. Exactly. Bob, is that correct? Sponge Bob. No, what's... Bun, bun, bun. I meant bun. Yeah, yeah, got you.

I meant, you know, whatever. 40 next year. Do you drink? Occasionally, yeah. I've been known to New Zealand. Yeah, New Zealand. UK, New Zealand. It's like, cool, I fucking drink.

What about you? You fucking, man. What about you? I like a sweet drink, like a soju or a... What was the thing you gave me the other day? Yo, Ketsu. It's like a lemon. It's like Japanese, like, Yuzu-flavored vodka.

It's so splengeted. It's so slender. Because literally just tastes like lemonade. It doesn't even taste like... Have you been to Japan? No. I want to go. Yeah, you all do so well in Japan.

Best place in the world. You'll never go anywhere else. I want to go there so bad. Yeah. I feel like you do really well in Japan. I want to. I want to go so bad. Fingers crossed. Hello, Japan. Please accept us. So many people comment as well, like, all the time.

Come to insert players. Oh, I want to. It's not our decision. We've got to wait until someone brings us out or books us. We're not at that point yet. So like, are these videos that you made two years ago? Yes. No label at that point. You're on Sumerian now.

Yeah. How did you pay for them? What videos? the music videos. Yeah. The first one for Begg. Yeah. That's what I'm thinking.

It was a good faith agreement. We did that for 2K. Really? Yeah. Just self-funded. Yeah. Like the dancers and stuff. It almost didn't go through.

I mean, like, we had pay. I don't want to like talk shit, but like we weren't getting the money. Like the 2K that we needed. Like we almost didn't get it that day because someone wasn't replying to the texts. But like... I mean, there's context missing. You're going to have to talk. some shit.

Someone, someone was going to give you the 2K? Yeah, it was the previous label that I would work with. Oh, so you did have a label. I thought you were unsigned. Okay, that makes sense. It was kind of like more of a distribution deal, but they were happy to offer a bit of money for making videos, which was, which was cool. So we got 2K to do that.

And the dancers all kind of did it out for the love of the game, which I'm so fucking grateful for. and Coco, who does choreography for a lot of it, like she kind of brought them in and camp. Like, it was all very much people were doing it out of the goodness of their heart, which was insane. It was awesome. It was awesome. And it just, like, it blew up, which was sick.

You know, like, it was unlike anything I've ever experienced before in terms of, like, booking a, like, all the money went to, like, the venues or, like, the places that we filmed in. People don't know 2K is. not a lot of money to do a video. You shouldn't be able to do one for 2K. No, bro. It's exploitative, really.

Like, you know, and, like, as my budgets go up, my, you know, I'm wanting to just make sure everyone on crew and dancers and people are being paid for, for their time now. Like, thankfully, I'm able to do that now. But, yeah, like, that first one was, like, just trust us on this one. It will set things up and it did, which was really cool. Good for you. Thanks.

Is the album finished? No. Concept is written. Yes. Storylines there. Lots of half-finished songs. You're just doing it song at a time? Yeah. What are you going to do?

Are you going to get it remixed at the end so it makes one whole thing or what? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. It's all going to connect and all that fun stuff. Interesting. Yeah. Have you got a plan on how many singles that would be?

So I always look at it in a marketing sense where like albums not really doing it. Like I feel like nowadays everyone's fucking stupid ADHD, chaotic. Like no attention span. So waterfall releasing, which is, you know, single by single by single until you release an album or an EP is the best strategy for like modern marketing, I find. It definitely works the best. Yeah. There's an argument that you're left with the four songs that aren't as good because they weren't singles and people are like, I'm just disappointed by the album. It's like, did you like 60% of it.

Exactly. Exactly. fucking did. Exactly. And, you know, I feel like once you've built your sort of legacy, you're able to just drop an album. And that's fucking sick as fuck. If you can just drop an album and just shut the fuck up,

that's the goal, man. But unfortunately, like, I feel like I'm not there yet. You've got to play the game a bit. You got to gesture dance. I'm a little clown. Here you go. Are you entertained? So I'm figuring out how many is probably best.

We did that on the last straight album because we were just so sick of it. And we were like, we're going to break up anyway. let's just drop it. It's like in six weeks from now and not tell anyone. And it was awesome. I'll tell you this, though, didn't do as well.

Because we didn't do the good business, but it was like as a artist, it was just so good to do. And not like, okay, what's the next movie? It's just like, it comes out on this day. And there's a video on that day. Yeah. There you go.

It's tiring. It is really tiring because in an ideal world, you just have to think about your art, but that's not being a artist nowadays. and like it's a sacrifice you have to make. I feel nowadays if you want to stand out, you've got to put that fucking elbow grease into social media marketing

and really plan out your release strategies. It must be harder to do for law building as well. You have to pick the correct ones. Exactly. Correct singles for the law. Exactly. It puts a whole new like roadblocking, but it's fun.

I enjoy being challenged. I was going to say mentally challenged. You can say it. I enjoy being mentally challenged. I've enjoyed being challenged, mentally. Exclamation mark. You got some big festivals coming up.

Yeah. Not Fest, Mexico. You got Warped Tour as well. Yeah. And louder than life. Uh-huh. Is that going to be your first festivals? Yeah, proper festivals.

I'm fucking... Do you know what to expect? Fuck no. I've heard that they're hella hectic. It's the best. Really? It's the fucking... That's the first time I've heard anybody say that about a festival.

Everyone has told us that it's prepared for the worst things to happen. Oh, that's going to happen. But the actual show, you're on Friday at Loud of Than Life. Yep. You got my cam. So sick. Yeah. So you're on stage three, which is a big stage.

Yeah. Playing those outdoor big festival shows as a musician is the number one thing I miss. Other than Japan, actually. Japan is number one. Yeah. And then playing festivals is number two. It is a shit show. It's going to go fucking wrong.

Yeah. But like the open air amount of people is just, fuck, it's like crack. I'm so excited. It's like a sweet, sweet bowl of crack. I love crack. It's the number one thing. That's a clip. It's the number one thing.

Yeah, other than Japan, I miss. And, like, I thought I was okay not doing a band because the podcast is fucking busy and shit. And then we went to Sonic Temple in Rockville these last two weeks. And I was like, God. I'm going to have to do that again before I'm old and decrepit. Well, all your, your one box of red hair dye away from being my impersonator.

Does it not piss you off? What? Dying your hair all the time. Because that's why I stopped. Natural. Bullocks. Yeah, it's a fucking nightmare, honestly. How often do you do your roots?

It's like, fucking when I can, six weeks. When I can't stand it anymore, you know? It's just really like when I can't. It's traveling. and like hotel towels. I'm so sorry, hotels. And the show, bro, the amount of showers that I've been stained

that I've just looked up with it. Well, it's funny they don't charge you for that. I've never been charged when Madison's hair has been fucking everywhere. I don't think I've been charged either, which is, because I think they're probably just...

The towels are fucked. Yeah. Let me tell you about those cows. But I think they see like red stained towels and they're like, oh. What happened here? We might not charge them. It might have been an accident.

I once had to do. change a hotel room because I laid on the floor to do some like fucking stretching or something. I looked over at the bed and there was just a blood stain like this. And I was like, I'm going to change rooms. Also, P.S. What happened to? Yeah. Someone recently in Denver. Bloods. Bloods. Bloodspladder all over the ceiling. Yeah. Awesome. So I was super fun. Wait, you were in the room? Yeah, I looked up and I was like, oh. Bloods on the ceiling. That's a...

Yeah, yeah, yeah, a little bit of slasher. It's a kill bill moment. Sick. I mean, oh, no. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, R. R. He did it look cool. Did you film it? Yeah, can I get that on a Gawl website? Yeah. You're going to do something fun.

This is fun, man. Thank you. Thank you. Right, correct answer. Before we do something fun, actually, you got anything you want to say about that female frontage shit? You can ask any questions you want about it. I'm very, I'm very vocal about it.

I just don't like doing it because I appreciate you as an artist. And it's not because you're a fucking woman. You can say that. Like, I'm not going to say in public. but like surely that must fucking piss you off I'm sick of my fucking musicianship being reduced to what I do or do not have in my pants

like you know and I feel like I feel like there's a lot of people who are over-correcting and I feel like what do you mean? Like people are like oh like we gotta we gotta make sure to push forward our female fronted artist as if we're handicapped

like that's what I know it's but I can't say anything because I'm a guy I'm like this is Some people get, I think, crucified for saying it. I think that we deserve a fucking even playing field. That's all we want. And I feel like a lot of businesses and labels and suits overcorrect. And like, I understand that it's coming from a good place, but sometimes it does way more harm than they think it's doing good.

If they overcorrect with a bad one, then there's more chance of people like lumping all bands with a girl in to be like, is this going to be another one of these ones? I'm not saying who. Exactly. And my answer or my response to that is, you know, when they want to lump all the female fronted into one thing is when has segregation ever worked, man? What has that ever been a good thing? Have we not learned? You know, like, I think we, you know, I think there's so many women in the genre who are so fucking talented and deserve a equal fucking playing field.

Not to throw anyone on the bus. I also think some of it is just like people being done as fuck. like old men running shit and being like, hey, this is a good idea. Let's do a tour and it's all women. And it's like, and it's like read the room a little bit. Like, I just spread everyone out. It's almost like people are just like hopping on the trend. Exactly.

Like female fronted trend. Like my tour right now, all female fronted for a reason of, I did it. I did it. You did the thing we're talking about. I want to show, I'm showcasing how different each fucking band sounds. We did not sound the same whatsoever. Like I, I mean a joke about it online the other day of like my top like five worst horror movie moments of like, oh, you guys sound like Paramore. Have you got fucking years?

Wait, does that happen? Yes, bro. I get compared to so many. Even like I get compared to Spirit Box, which is, hey, huge compliment because Courtney is, oh, I love her so much. But I don't think we sound alike at all. Better than Paramore, I think. And you know what? It's not actually you.

I'll give them that some of the breakdowns are Spirit Box s. Yeah, yeah. But like not because of the fact that there's a girl thing. Exactly. I feel like vocally, like our voice is so different. And I love being compared to because I love her. But like I feel it comes from like an interviewer sometimes just doesn't know what to ask. And so they're like, you're like, you're just like spirit box.

That's where, yeah, that's why I didn't. You're just like paramour, right? You got red hair. That's why I didn't want to say it. Yeah. You said to me earlier that it was like, she's obviously pissed off about this. Yeah. And it comes from a good place.

And I don't know a lot of people are like, well, fuck we can't bloody win all they bloody women's buddy what do they want you know but it's just like fucking so many accents there it was impossible it was great mr will white it's fucking crazy subtitles on that one but like i think equal playing field just treat us like humans men like we're all doing the same thing for the for the love of the game i mean i've been seeing this for something that's happening right now like let me see if i can phrase this in a fucking cohesive way without sounding like I'm drinking

marcher in a fucking you know in a coffee shop like 60 foot three by the way but like people have an ingrained misogyny and homophobia this is something that I'm seeing at the moment literally currently at the moment happening

very very part of right now so I see people saying like yeah but I'm not being you know mis misogynistic or homophobic or whatever I just don't think it's good or you know something like that and then when you look at whatever they're saying you're like okay well if I change that sentence to be a man

a male band would you be saying it and the answer is no so it's misogynistic and the same thing I'm seeing right now there's a lot of homophobia on the internet today and yesterday and there's a lot of people being like I'm not homophobic

but you've got a you know If you've got to say but. Yeah. You've got a feel for whoever. People who know, and what I'm talking about is what I'm talking about. But it's like, okay, well, if this had nothing to do with being gay,

would you even have an opinion on it? Exactly. No, you wouldn't. So even though you're not outwardly saying the word, what you're doing is homophobic. Yeah. And the same thing kind of happens. Yeah, but I just think they're bad.

And it's like, well, Okay, well, have you ever had that opinion on a man band? Man band. Exactly. Man band. And it's like, well, no, not really, you haven't. It's very, very odd. I don't even know if that came out as cohesive,

and it might not even be on the podcast. Malefronted music. Let's listen to Malefronted music. Emma from Dying Wish calls Dying Wish, uh, male reared. Male Rood is my favorite fucking thing to say. Male Ried. So funny, man.

Male Ried. I think it works. It's so funny. Do you want to do something fun? Fuck yeah. We've got two games. What's that a fidget spinner? They still go in?

You want to see my fidget spinner? Yo. Sick. You should glue one on, bro. Concentration. That must exist. We're going to play heads up. You know what heads up is?

I do. You're going to stick someone on your head. Okay. Yes. Oh, yes. I do know this. And you're going to ask yes or no questions to decide for who you are. Okay.

Madison has these. Madison will be in charge of sticking them to your head. Are you going to? I don't know the book version. Okay. Right, you're both You're both famous cats. Do I like lasagna?

No. I don't know, but not canonically, no. Okay. I'm not going to pick the most famous cat in the fucking world, am I? Do I speak? Nah.

And there's law behind why you do not speak. There is? There is. We can talk about it afterwards. Oh, interesting. Am I in a cartoon? Yes. It's animated, yeah.

Am I fictional? You're fictional. Okay. Is one of my main characteristics that I hate a certain mouse? I'm not going to pick the second most famous cat, am I? No. Ask more broad questions. Yeah, yeah, true, true, true.

You're like, you want to say, am I fucking Tom? Am I Tom? But then you ask a concept that is like, you might as well have just said, am I Tom? I want to be good at this game. Do I get chase around by a pair of legs with a hammer? Do I say, yow! You can get this. Context clues.

Are I animated? You're animated. Sick. Okay. Am I an older cartoon or a newer cartoon? Slash animation slash whatever. I'm going to say... Oh, yes or no questions?

I'm going to say yes to older. Yes to older. Okay. Yes or no, but like I will sometimes interject with it. Right. Am I in a movie? Madison is nodding. So the answer is yes, but not known for the movie.

Am I in a movie? Yes. You are in a movie. A lot of people don't know your character doesn't speak. Do I walk on two legs? Yes. Great question. That's a fucking good.

That's a great question. Do I wear clothes? No. Flats. Flat-out. Am I regular cat color? Yes. That's good.

I'm going to ask a dumb-ass question. One specific question again. Do I play saxophone? No. Which cat plays saxophone? Pink Panther. Oh, that was going to be my guess. Pink Panther.

Does he speak? Exactly. We don't know. I don't know. I think he likes jazz. That cat is. These cats are cooking. You,

hey. Lock it. Yeah, that was nice. That was really nice. Anyway, lock in. Do I play instruments? I mean, maybe in your spare time, but I don't think you're very known for it if you do.

No. So I'm a naked cat and I'm old. You didn't, you know, you said, I mean, you didn't say old. I'm a, I'm a,

vintage. I would say, It counts as vintage, yeah. Yeah, okay. To you, it's vintage. Okay. To me, it's not. Do I speak?

Yes. And I know this guy. Yes. I know him? I assume you know him. Do I interact with people? No. Yeah, no.

That's a great question. His questions are incredible. Mine are fucking cheap. You know, I didn't work on it. Do I play the saxophone? Do I play the saxophone? Yeah, you're just like, I was asking the question without asking the question. Yeah.

You could have said, am I a traditional cat color like he said? Yeah. And we would have said, yeah. And then you would have got some context and known it's not fucking pink. Yeah. And then the game would have moved on. Red, noted, noted, noted. Am I in a movie?

Yes. You've already asked that question. And the answer is yes. I'm not met a kid today, man. Ask another question. Get a zin down you. Yeah. Do you want a Zinn?

Yeah, let's give it a go. Can I tell the funny Zinn story? Of course you can. On our first tour, me and my bassist, we tried to get addicted to nicotine. And we tried to hold us in as long as we could before gagging. So we'll see how long I'll last. You are bad for people. I'm a musician, man.

I'm allowed to do this, right? I've got no vices left. Nicotine's the only one. Yeah, I don't do drugs. I can do this. Anyway. Is this jug? Yeah.

I think so. Do I interact with animals? Yes. Yes. Am I? Ginger? No. No?

Not exactly. Don't hyperfocus on don't speak. I don't know if you'll know that part of it. What you think is. Your character came out the same year, I believe, as that song. What year was that? Oh, fuck you. Oh, I've got a question.

Am I more popular in Western culture? Probably beloved in both. I'd say worldwide. Worldwide, but potentially I would say yes, maybe. Okay. That's a great question. Yes. This isn't worked.

Also, here's a clue. Here's a clue. Here's a clue. Here's a clue. I feel funny. Most of your questions that you guys are asking are relating to what you can see on other person's head. So like a lot of the things that you're saying...

Yeah, yeah, clues to each other. Like, you're asking it because you can see what's on their head and you're thinking, am I in the same thing? Am I, am I, am I, am I, bipedal or am I sort of... You walk on four. Oh, yeah, okay.

You have quadriplegia, no. That's not the word. That's not the word. That's not the one. Someone without. Oh, yeah, no. Yeah, no. Yeah, not.

You're due a question, because she's had three and a lot. I'm struggling. I don't know, I don't know what to ask. Okay, here's a clue. her question that she just asked before the quadriplegic one inferred

something about yours am I known for being in Western culture not originally no if this was a dog I would have had this wait who was your dog gaspy I don't even know just had to call him on his bullshit

yeah yeah yeah yeah I don't even know any famous dogs yeah you do Scooby true he's a famous guy I think I'm just nervous Goofy? Pluto? A great father.

Unfair. Goofy and Pluto. We did this before, and Goofy was one of them. Oh, yeah? And I went on probably a good 10-minute tangent about how fucking unfair it is for Pluto. Why? Pluto's a dog, man. Close and get to sit at the dinner table with Mickey, but Pluto has to eat out the dog dish.

Fucked up. Maybe it's a sex thing. Well, we've got to get down to the science. Why can't Pluto talk? That's a question, man. Maybe he was isolated. Maybe so goofy. can talk.

Higher evolution. Yeah. It's really, yeah, it's quite horrible. But again, maybe it's a sex thing. Maybe he's his sub.

The mouse. Oh, you mean it like a BDSM thing? Yeah. Maybe he's into it. Exactly. He's wearing a collar. He's off camera.

Does Goofy wear a collar? Nah. I don't know. He wears like polos. Exactly. And pants. Yuck. Yeah.

I feel busy. Who else? I need, whose question is it? Are my eyes yellow? No. Don't think so. Am I a boy or a girl?

You are a boy. I'm such a boy. Am I a boy or a girl? You're a girl. You are the most famous girl cat. Ever, man. Ever. Am I a big cat?

You are a big cat. Did I die in a tragic accident? You didn't. Did you? She's about to get it. I'm getting cooked right now. You have to steal. What are the facts that we know?

I know a lot of facts, but I just, it's not ringing a bell. Okay, let's line it up. Let's line it up. You're a girl. I'm a girl. You're famous. I'm famous. I walk on two legs.

You got two legs. And you're probably more. Got a yellow nose. Yeah, you're more famous probably not in Western, but I would say nowadays, worldwide. Worldwide. But perhaps in a place that we've been kind of glazing a lot. There's a hint. Boise Idaho.

Shut up, Boise Idaho. In this exact context, in this podcast, we've glazed this place. Your cat is not, your cat is not from Boise, Idaho. Okay. Potato cat. Oh, man. He's going to kick himself. Oh, you're going to get so mad.

Oh, no. I, uh, you, uh, I, uh, I, I debated putting that as one of the cats, but it was like, I, e, uh, sorry. Oh, I am. You're going to kick yourself. I'm going to kick yourself. I'm going to kick yourself. I'm going to kick.

But yours is a tough one. But also like me, if I had to flip these the other way around. Of course you gave that one to turn. Of course he gave that. Of course he did. Patriarchy, flip. Change in the world. One cat at a time.

One cat at a time. You got this man. Now I can't dig it any cats. You want to steal this? Wait, wait. You're missing actually out of my clue that I gave you out of when you lined up the context. Two legs. Two legs.

Girl. Not a grown-up cat. Not a grown-up. I thought she was a grown-up cat. No. And here's another hint. She's so cute, man. What a cute.

She's so cute. What's not a grown-up cat? Kidden. Okay. I'm not giving you any more, Clays. Hello, kitten. Sorry. Hello, Quincy.

Give us a fucking question. Did my father die in a very tragic accident? He did, but you have not guessed, so it is back. It is back for the steel. That is the one time you should have asked. directly am I this character? Oh man. You are a kitten from the Eastern culture

who is a girl, an animated girl cat. Often found on many a merchandise object. Huge. She's only three apples tall, man. I'm going to kill my stuff. Oh my gosh.

Japanese cat. What's your famous Japanese cat girl? Not cat girl. Sorry, girl cat. No, to be confused. Young. Wait, what's a cat girl? Don't worry about it.

He knows what a cat girl is. That was a sexy little voice. Maybe I do. You're on Twitch.tv. Let me have a look. You've seen them, bro. She's not a cat girl. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, safe related. And that was... You're a furry man. Judy Hopps. You got this one. I went to a furry, convention once because it was next door to slam dunk. Didn't you go free convention?

Oh, sorry, sorry. Weren't you in town? Or was at Harlan? No, I was in town. Yeah. I was at Twitchcon. Okay. Lots of furrows there.

There was one next to slam dunk and we stayed in a hotel that was a fairy convention. I was like, I'm going to go check it out. Felt right at home. They were all really nice. And then I didn't know anything about it. And then people told me what goes on at those things. Oh. And I was like, oh.

Shenanigans. They fucking each other in those furry suit. Famous child girl Japanese On everything On everything On everything? On everything?

Pencil cases She got her own cafe She's got Uh Oh Ah Am I hello kitty You are hello kitty

Stupid I have that on my snare drum Bro I have a little Hello kitty sticker on my snare drum I should have Oh no I said

Oh stolen Yeah You stole it though Yeah Simba. You are Simba. Oh, I just can't wait to be king. Oh, my gosh.

You said, can I talk? And I was so close to be like, you do sing as well. Wait, wait. I'm curious on the lore on why she can't speak. Okay. I'm a huge Sanrio nerd. I'm a Hello Kitty bitch. I'm actually a Karomi bitch.

But with that being said, Hello Kitty specifically was not drawn with a mouth because the creators wanted you. to really focus on listening to your friends the way Hello Kitty listens so you're not over talking. She doesn't have a mouth because she doesn't talk. She listens.

And I think it's the cutest little lore ever. That's adorable. That is cute. It's why she doesn't have a mouth. But I feel like you could also like turn that into like a horror movie. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. They did it with Winnie the Pooh, didn't they?

Oh, they did. And Steamboat Willie, I think. Yeah, because the thing expired. Yeah. People watching on YouTube will notice that Madison's not here today because we basically came straight from Sonic Temple and Rockville and

we fucked up. You can take your headbands off now. We fucked up. And a quick little thank you to the lovely people at Sweetwater who actually gave us a roadcaster pro and all these tripods so we could even do this episode today. Sweetwater.com. That's sweetwater. Sweetwater.com.

Damn, that's a good fucking overdub voice. Thanks, man. Fuck. And a different life, Vana is 100% a voice actor. I want to be a voice actor. You know, anime boy? Go to Sweetwater.com. Oh my God.

That's so cool. Multi-talented, bro. What would you do? I want to be an anime boy. I want to do a fucking character so bad. Bro, I want to do it so bad. I feel like you could do one. Thanks very much.

Yeah. I nearly did. I went to, you've been to Crunchy Roll yet? They had you there. Bro. So I had a connection there. And he, before this tour, he was like, um,

yo, let me know, like when you guys are in Dallas. and I'll get you in a crunchy roll. And I email him. He's like, you know, I just asked my manager. He's like, they don't do that anymore. They stopped it.

They stopped doing that. Yeah, he said they stopped doing it this year. Sad. I was like, let me find out if they really did. But when I was there, initially,

I was like, I ain't going to unless I could do a voice. And then they were like, let me see what I can do. Initially, he was like, there might be a voice you could do on solo leveling too.

And I was like, this would make my fucking year. That is a dream come true. Didn't happen. Sad ass. And then he was like, we might be able to squeeze a voice in for you for Black Butler because it's British. So I'm still trying to fucking get that. That's on my bucket list.

That would be so sick. That is a fucking, that is a side quest that I hope to traverse down. Are you like an actual anime nerd then? Yeah, I'm getting there. I'm not as much of a nerd as some of the boys in the band. But I'm, I've seen a couple. I've served my time. And I'm starting some new ones.

I'm starting to Jiji Kisen right now and I'm really liking it. That's me. I'm basically exactly the same. We just got up to date with JJK. Yeah, cool. And it's so fucking good. Yeah.

Are you the anime nerd then? Yeah. Massive anime nerd. He watches one piece, man. Oh, okay. I'm like caught up. I got another quiz. I got a quiz that I can do specifically for you.

But I've got, I have 2% on my fucking iPads. So we've got to just hope it works. Okay. Okay. We're going to do, guess the anime character from the silhouette.

Okay. That is chainsaw man. Yeah. Correct. Denji. I mean, yeah. We'll take Denji, actually. That is Ryu from Death Note.

Death Note. Ryuk. Ryuk. Goku. Look how quick he is. Goku black. I can't even see it. I'm so sorry.

Yeah, that is? No. That's Gone from Hunter, X Hunter. We got the right person. Yes. That is Gojo. Gojo, right? Yeah.

That is Nesuko from Demon Slayer. You're sorry, fucking, Sailor Moon. I don't know her name. I haven't said Sailor Moon. I don't know her name. I haven't seen Sailor. Get it. That is, I think that's Ichigo. No, no, no, Berserk.

Or Ichiko. I'm going to see Berserk. What's his name? I don't know. I haven't watched Berserk. Yeah, guts. Damn. Okay. That is, I think that's Cloud from Final Fantasy 7.

We got the fuck. We did this as a like trick after fucking berserk. Because we were like, people are going to say that that's guts again. Motherfucker. It's because we play smash bros. That's Sailor Moon as real, right? Is that Sailor? I think.

But like a different character? It might be. I don't know. I don't know. I think she might be from Black Clover. I'm not sure. I'm actually not sure about this one. He's locked in, but.

Freeran. Oh, that's one now that was telling me to watch. Mutu. Not Mutu. The one from Pokemon. I forget his name, but he's with the bad guys. Oh, what is his name? That's me, out.

This is not meows. That's not? Oh. Hello, Kitty. No, not again. Close. You're close. Goodbye, Kitty.

Really. Farewell, Kitty. 10 out of 10 joke. I don't know that one. Give up? Yeah. Oh, dang to Dan. See, I watch.

I watched the first episode and I was a little weirded out. It's number two for me. Really? Yeah. It's fucking awesome. I just finish watching it. I want to say this is a Jojo's bizarre adventure character, but I'm not sure who. Maybe.

That's me! Hey! You're Jojo's bizarre adventure character. That one is actually an honor. That's why I was like, I don't know who this is. You redeemed yourself there, I think. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, thank God.

Fucking nerd. That's it. What's next? The album, hopefully, is going to be out next year. Is what we're aiming for. I was going to say in the morning. Hello. In the beginning of next year. Out tomorrow.

It's actually out. Everything I said, fuck it. I'm dropping it. It's actually out right now. I'm going to leak the entire album. We're fucking on the road. Heaps. There's a bunch of tours that we're going to announce.

Doing what on the road? Hey! Hey, yo. Hey, yo. Yeah, we're married to the road. We're going to be touring a lot. We will be doing lots of cool music videos and hopefully building on that lore

and releasing a lot more when we can. Looking forward to seeing and hearing it. Thank you. Thank you, guys. Thank you for having us. See you again. See soon. Absolutely.

Thanks guys.