The Downside with Gianmarco Soresi - #170 Self-Hating Joke Lover with Vulture’s Jesse David Fox

Episode Date: November 21, 2023

Writer and journalist Jesse David Fox joins us to share the downsides of being a comedy critic, why he hasn't been to the Comedy Cellar in years, if jokes are even necessary to make great comedy, the difference between originality and quality, and Gianmarco swears he's not just being combative because he didn't make the Vulture list this year. You can watch full video of this episode HERE! Join the Patreon for ad-free episodes, exclusive content, and MORE. Follow Jesse on Instagram and Twitter Read Jesse's book, Comedy Book, available to purchase here Follow The Downside with Gianmarco Soresi on Instagram Get tickets to our live podcast recording in NYC on December 4 here: https://www.eventbrite.com/e/700533383207 Follow Gianmarco Soresi on Twitter, Instagram, TikTok, Facebook, & YouTube Subscribe to Gianmarco Soresi's email & texting lists Check out Gianmarco Soresi's bi-monthly show in NYC Get tickets to see Gianmarco Soresi in a city near you Watch Gianmarco Soresi's special "Shelf Life" on Amazon Follow Russell Daniels on Twitter & Instagram E-mail the show at [e-mail] Produced by Paige Asachika & Gianmarco Soresi Video edited by Dave Columbo Special Thanks Tovah Silbermann Original music by Douglas Goodhart Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This episode is brought to you by A Real Pain. From Searchlight Pictures comes one of the buzziest films at Sundance Film Festival, A Real Pain. Written, directed, and starring Oscar nominee Jesse Eisenberg alongside Emmy Award winner Kieran Culkin. Witness a hilarious and moving story about two mismatched cousins as they tour through Poland to honor their beloved grandmother. The adventure takes a turn when the pair's old tensions resurface against the backdrop of their family history see a real pain only in theaters november 15th remember you were gonna you originally for this podcast we're going to read a book you were going to read a book so my my my original premise one of the ideas i have for podcasts was i'd read a book before every episode which which is insane. You did that for today.

It was during COVID where you'd be like, I have time to read books. Yeah. And this is the first time. I mean, it really is the most research I've ever done for an episode, given that I've read the whole book. And we'll get to it in a second. I got things. I got things. First, I got to – welcome to The Downside. This is Drew Marcus-Raisy.

I'm here with my co-host, Russell Daniels. Russell? Hi. And we're joined today by a comedy critic, writer, Jesse David Fox. Hello. My mom had a correction for another one recently. So, get this,

newsflash, my mom, her fake tits were not paid for by my dad So we had a long conversation A long conversation Longer than my mom's fake tits About my dad Has purchased

My mom said Oh, if your dad had paid for these They would have been much bigger And I said, okay, great, great, great I thought you were going to say better. She's just like a cheap guy. When he said that, I did hear better. She got a

discount. Out of his preference. Yes. Got it. It's funny because I thought, my dad always says he's a legs guy. I'm sure if he could pay for that leg surgery, he'd do it. But so what my mom said is that my dad did pay for, basically she said

every woman my dad dated at some point they would just spring up with new big double Ds. One day I'll ask my dad how much, I want to ask him how much did you pay

for my voice lessons compared to fake tits for your girlfriends? Let's compare. My mom said she got it after, she didn't specify any part that I wasn't allowed My mom said she got it after. She didn't specify any part that I wasn't allowed to say, but she called it correct.

She got it after my second sister was born. Okay. So she called it, it's like a baby, what she called it, a mommy makeover. I guess I don't know if people use that term, but after a certain number of kids. And so she got them done. And then she said something about my stepdad where he was like,

ah, you don't have to get him done. I'm not really a boobs guy. And then she said, but when I got him done, he got a lot more touchy-feely. Most guys are more boobs guys than you think. And I was like, great. That's good to know. And because my mom's short, power reasoning, that means my stepdad is a butt guy. So that's good to know. Good to know for my sisters listening that means my stepdad is a butt guy. So that's good to know.

Good to know for my sisters listening, too. Your father is a butt guy. And the reason this came up was because at some point my little sister, she was growing up, and she told my mom, Oh, I know I'm going to develop later and look like you. And my mom had to explain to her, Oh, no, sweetheart. No, no, no. You're going to have to pay for these. Yeah, much later.

It's got to be a nuisance. I've known a lot of people who got breast reduction in my life. It's got to be tough. Yeah. Having boobs, period. It's a fine balance. I need boobs. Tova doesn't complain about her boobs too much.

I have a joke where in the joke, she has small boobs for a bit. And then that's the one joke she makes me correct. She says, you have to say on stage after that, that I have big tits. I'm like, okay, I'll give you that one. Well, we're going to talk so much comedy. Sorry, I've had a... So my father, not very comedically inclined. He likes Naked Gun. All of them. All of them. The first one's good. Yeah, I don't think he could tell the difference.

And the first one I saw was the last one, because I was a kid when it came out. So in my head, that one's good, because I saw it when I was a kid. Yeah. Oh, there's Simpsons in it? level that's funny there's that level of comedy like he should watch all the murders in the building like that level still exists that steve i know naked guns not steve martin but it might as well be i mean it's the same like it's like funny goofy slapsticky

but he's this is why my dad like can't. I did some bad joke. I was doing morning news for a spot. It was over Zoom, and I couldn't see the other guy. So I was just talking to a void while I was on camera. Nightmare. And at some point, I tried throwing in a joke. He was very professional. And I said something about, oh, yeah, come see a show.

He's like, how are you liking Chicago? Oh, a woman came last night. She said not only was it her first comedy show it was also her last he laughed and I go she had cancer and then he just kind of froze and then they said alright so my dad heard this

and he calls me and he says I saw you on the news talking about some woman who had cancer and I said oh no it was just a joke and he said do you know anyone who had cancer? And I said, oh, no, it was just a joke. And he said, do you know anyone who has cancer? I was like, and I tried joking again. I said, well, the woman from the joke, but she's dead now.

And he said, what? And I said, never mind. And then he said, oh, and then he started listing every person he knows with cancer and what stage it is and how devastating it's been to their life. And it's that kind of brokenness that you can't make that laugh. That is a Steve Martin quote

that is also sometimes attributed to Stephen Colbert, which is when you're younger, you make a lot of jokes about cancer, then you start having friends that have cancer and you stop, which is interesting. It's like he knew, he's like he's paraphrasing that steve martin

thing knowing you would bring up steve martin as examples sure like i that is an interest people say that my dad's always said that with you know i certainly have a number of pedophile jokes and i think for him he like it's almost as if he visualizes it. A lot of my jokes, some of them are really much a wordplay twists. It's the twist of the expectation. And if you're someone who like visualizes it, of course you're going to feel like, but I don't know. I don't know.

What do you, do you think that's, do you think that's as you'll get older, as you've gotten older, do you think there's certain things that you're like, Oh, we don't need to joke about that. no usually when i feel that way i'm it's i know it's more about me in the moment than than the actual joke you know it's like i'm being sensitive to something right now not all not all the time but in general when if i if i were to hear like a random cancer like a normal a normal a normal cancer joke, and I was dealing with it in my life at the moment and it bothered me, I think my instinct would be to shy away from it in the moment.

But I would know that that's just bothering me because it relates to me right now. Sure. Not that it's a problem with the joke. It's how I kind of feel. Let me ask you, since this is the downside and you wrote about your brother in the book, how do you feel about suicide jokes? Well, he didn't die of suicide. Oh, forgive me. Oh, my God.

I misread that part. He died of a drug overdose. Oh, forgive me. It's okay. God, I feel like a jackass. And how do you feel about drug overdose jokes? I think my standard... I have a high...

I was thinking about this while you were saying, because I was like, I have a high standard for jokes regardless, right? And jokes about sensitive subjects, especially because it's like the juice worth the squeeze is how i think of it which is like is it worth is the sort of energy that you're putting into it by talking about a subject that's sensitive is it worth whatever the punchline is and or whatever relief you're giving those people yeah so like would my standard be, like, I don't know. I have to, it hasn't happened yet. No one's made a joke in that area.

And then I was like, oh, no, I'm sensitive, so I can't laugh the same way. But I think I was probably, I don't want to make it seem like I'm overly sensitive, because it's almost not that. I'm mostly like, okay, what is the math of this joke? And is it fine? Sure. But if it's like, you know, Taylor Thompson has jokes about her mom dying of cancer and my mom passed away of cancer when I was younger and I like those jokes.

I feel like I relate to those jokes. I think my relief for a person who does joke in that area from the position of experiencing the same thing as I do, my reaction, I think,

is larger. I think I experience that. But I don't think I... Yeah, I don't know. I think maybe... I think I experienced that, but I don't think I... Yeah, I don't know. I think if anything... You know what? I think I would be more resentful of the comedian if they do a bad joke about the area. I wouldn't be like...

I wouldn't clutch any pearls. I don't do that, but I would be like... Or if the joke is... I think it's more like when it's easy and it's not that insightful and not that funny, you could then... Unlike the one I did on the news, which was deep and meaningful.

It was flippant. It wasn't an attempt at... That joke to me sounds so joke-like that I would not invest into that enough. Yeah, exactly. My dad will invest so quickly. That's interesting. But that's also like...

That's why I'd say he's mentally ill or so mentally, so much of an open wound that like, it's just ready for an infection to take place. It's just a big, like, like he, we, I tried to get him to watch the Sopranos.

Yeah. Cause I'm like, I'm like, and, and the, the pilot episode is him trying to figure out a home for his mom. Yeah. And my dad's like,

I can't watch this. And I'm like, I think you'd be better if you just tried to think and feel. Just tell me that they get along at some point. Instead, what does he want to do? He wants to talk about other people's cancers. What does he do for a living? He is, no, no, no. It's fine. I mean, God.

It's just sort of like, this is a fascinating person to me. He's fascinating. I mean, God, I, uh, just sort of like, this is a fascinating person to me. And I'm like, cause he's, he's fascinating. He's very frustrating, very frustrating. I like hearing how different people process art, right? Cause people's brains are so different. Like I can't visualize almost anything.

So like when I hear jokes, I don't, I do the exact opposite. Your dad does like, cause I don't have, I literally, when I close my eyes, I can't picture anything.

So it's just like, Oh, cool. Word. People are saying word. First of all, I think there's a painter. No, no, no, no, no, no. Well, First of all, I think it's like, is he a painter? No,

no, no, no, no, no. First of all, let me just say, there is a sense with the kind of jokes that I like, which I would put in the Jessel Necky in camp or the how far back can we go with those one-liners? Anything too twisty, his brain cannot comprehend it quick enough

to get it. He's confused. Got it. And then you explain it. He goes, I don't. That's not funny, though. He runs a scrap metal recycling company that also does highway construction. Very complex stuff where you go, really? You can get that, but you can't get this joke.

And workaholic, 20 different websites, copywritten, two of them function, was going to be in the marijuana selling industry, scrap metal recycling, building. During COVID, he helped clean all these companies. Have you ever tried to print out your jokes and have them read them? Sure. I could try it. Because it's possible he's just not an auditory

person. Well, I'll add onto that. His hearing is not great either and will not will not get hearing aids. I've done everything I could. Will not do it. Will not do it. Yeah, because it's possible that the timing

of your joke actually enters his brain at different timing because he hears it slightly less. So it takes his brain an extra.1 seconds to be like, oh, the word he just said was cancer. And that alone changes the timing of the joke. But maybe if he reads it, he'll be like, okay, so there's this one

I'm going to show. Oh, and then she has the last one. Well, now, next time I have a joke bomb on stage, I'm going to be like, all right, can we get the printers? Clearly this audience is not auditory humorists. How important is it for you that your dad thinks you're funny? Not important at all. It's not important at all.

It's just like that's our conversations are really rough and lack substance and details. And for him, they repeat kind of like he goes down these like if I bring up his father, who I never met. Yeah. He goes kind of like a point for point. Oh, my father, he was a horrible man. He cheated on your grandmother. And he'll say almost like a little speech where it's kind of like broken.

And I'm like, well, give me a detail. Tell me about one woman he fucked. Tell me one specific story that we can expand on. But instead it's this. It's like the script of who his father was to him. And I don't know if it's because if he talks more, it'll get too much. I don't know if his, like, memory's not fully there. But I get bored.

I get so, I'm like going nuts. And it's also, he's like so depressed. So depressed. So every, every conversation, I mean, that cancer thing had happened before, I looked at the phone before it hit one minute. Before it hit one minute of the phone call, we used lifted two people that were dying of cancer. And I'm like that,

I can't do this. Yeah. And then just hop up at the cellar. Yeah. Yeah. It's so interesting. Other than the depressed part, I was like,

this is a fascinating subject. Like his, just have a like boring sort of rote story about his life. That's like so dramatically told. I'm like, you got, that's like do a show where you're just like punching up his stories. I mean,

that's a lot of my standup. I mean, it is like crowd work with your dad for the audience later. Yeah. And he's like, yeah, he's, he's a huge part of my,

my standup. I, I, I, you know, he had some hard stuff. I have a big chunk about his quintuple bypass.

I think there's been certain moments where I go like, fuck, man, I've written too much about my father that I have the thought of whenever he passes away that I know I will have, that any comedian, any artist, if they're being honest with anyone, will say there is a thought of like,

oh, fuck, I built my thing around you being alive and being frustrating and being in this moment. It's tough, man. But there's so much potential there. Look at Maria, right? Maria Bamford

has an act where there's a lot of things going on, but a lot of it was talking about her mother and a little bit her father and her sister. And, like, I made her write about it in the book. When her mother passes away, it's like a great character in literature passes away or whatever because she was so embodied in her performance.

So then she had to work on it, but then she figured out how to tell her audience about how her mother passes away while still... And even now she does like, you know, she's always doing something, but like, I feel like they are,

she does zoom shows or something where she does just her mother. And she'll just like do the character of her mother, just as the entire show, like answering questions or something like that. If I do just my father and it's just, it's an hour long zoom where it lists people who are problematic oh it would be very problematic i'd be like let me tell you the halloween costume i did when i was six years old i'd be like okay no more no more yeah or uh and when i interviewed little

rel he he used to do an impression of his mother that was very loving and then after she passed away he realized he can't do it anymore it's too hard because when he does a character they're there in him or whatever you know like some people when they do characters on stage and then after she passed away, he realized he can't do it anymore. It's too hard. Because when he does a character, they're there in him or whatever. You know, like some people, when they do characters on stage, some comedians truly are like, I'm not me anymore.

I'm this person, right? Same thing, I imagine actors, there are those actors who are like, the me that has left, I am now my mother. And it's like, it's like she's on stage and I then can't do the rest of the show. So it's an interesting thing to wrestle with. This is the downside. You're listening to The Downside.

The Downside. With Gianmarco Ceresi. I want to apologize again. Let me just say, before you came, I literally was like, because I had read this. Yeah. I gave it to Russell. Went to avoid. Didn't see it again.

I put a calendar reminder to get it back. And you can attest to this. I said, I know he had a brother who died. And Russell was talking to me as I was looking for it in the back. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because I knew it was in the later part of the book. Yes. Partly because I was, you know, I had so many thoughts, and then I got to that.

I said, okay, okay, well, he's a human being. Don't be mad at this comedy critic. I literally, when you rang, and then Russell was going on and on about foreign affairs, foreign affairs. And so when I said it, I was like, god damn it. I swear to fuck it. So just so you know, I did read it. Yes. My memory's bad.

It is bad. Like my father. Sure. And I apologize. No, it's OK. Honestly, I've been doing some press. And because the ending of the book is, one, the end, two, some people find it moving or whatever, or just like it's a lot at the end. They want to talk about it, but they're very scared to talk about the ending of the book is one, the end, two, it is like some people find it moving or whatever, or just like it's it's a lot at the end.

They want to talk about it, but they're very scared to talk about the book. So they sort of like talk this way about it. They'll be like, and, you know, in the ending, the part, you know, the part there's a part of the end. And maybe if you want to talk, but, you know, like and then they're like so they and it's so frustrating because I think of it. I know from an artist perspective, I like, he put it in the book. It's fair game. Yeah, yeah. It's definitely fair game. I mean, like, I put it at the end of the book because I was like,

that should be your test, by the way, for people who didn't read it. You should have the brother at the beginning. So if you know people who didn't finish, they go, so your brother? What did he think of it? Yeah, but also I put it at the end because I was like, you need to have read the whole book to deserve to learn about my life. Yes. Well, I should have put it at the end because I was like, you need to have read the whole book to deserve to learn about my life. Yes.

Well, I should have said it for the end of the podcast. You have to listen to the whole podcast. Speaking of extra podcast stuff, join the Patreon, patreon.com slash downside. We are now doing one bonus episode a month. We are posting our live episodes there. We recently posted our full episode with Kevin Allison. are live episodes there. We recently posted our full episode with Kevin Allison, and we have one coming up with Ari

Hershkowitz from the movie One of Us, I think, about leaving the Hasidic community in New York. And my comedy special, The Rats Are In Me, patreon.com slash downside, link in bio. Now! Okay. I... I will say, the one thing I've been

thinking... So we did have Jason Cinnamon on the show. I've listened. we did have Jason Zinnemann on the show I listened to that episode when it happened and then again recently to prepare what's it going to be like Jason and I we got into like a Twitter argument he did not like a tweet that I said recently? a couple months ago but I said

fuck Jason Zinnemann and the New York Times no I said I basically said hold on, I see. Oh my Jesus Christ. And the thing with talking to you fucking writers is like, I have a thought and then I get an article back and I'm like, well, now I got to read the article

and I got to respond and this is your profession. And you know what? It's only fair. He should have to respond to me in my medium. We should have a stand-up debate. But the tweet that he did not like said so many back and forth oh my god oh my god because you know that i have that is so long you're gonna read all this time no no no i was just trying to find the original tweet it was essentially it was essentially saying uh comedy critics uh people when people see stand-up comedy that has no jokes i wrote it better let me look it up i phrased it really well uh at least i'm now prepared to know what part of

it is and then uh so we're gonna start with the no jokes part of it uh which is good i'm like a both the most like lover of jokes and person who person who vows that stand-up doesn't need as many jokes as people think it does. Well, I'm just glad. I just think we can have... Obviously, this kind of conversation is hindered by the fact that I'm in this profession. And there's so many opinions

that I cannot share publicly. Because this comedian's like this and they're bad. Yes. And a lot of it is, this is bad. This person is, or this person is, it's not good. I care about the art. Sure.

The craft of the art that I've literally dedicated my life to. Sure. And so there's a lot of people that are lauded or not that I would go, that's like bad. I think this hype is false. I would go, that's bad. I think this hype is false. I think this hype is self-serving or to associate yourself with... And I can't do that.

I can't get into specifics of that. And I'm also hindered by the fact that anyone can look at any of my opinions and go, someone didn't make the vulture list this year. And that's fine. That's fine. Okay, I can't find it Vulture list this year. And that's fine. That's fine. Okay, I can't find it. It's so funny.

I was like, okay, what are the things I can imagine him bringing up and at what point? I'm going to M&M it. I'm going to get all this. I'm going to roast myself first. He never made the Vulture list ever, ever, ever. He's only been booked on the Vulture show once and it was Jay Jordan. Yeah, we don't book the show. Like I helped.

Yeah, but Matt booked the show. So, no, I don't book the show like i helped yeah but man so no i don't come back uh the we can talk about the list whenever we want to talk about the list but we want to talk about jokes first well for example the list that's what i mean it's like the list is something i can't talk about because those are literally peers many friends and peers yeah so basically the thing that i so what i want to say is that i am trying to hold myself to account because i feel like and I've talked about it many times, we had a psychic on. This is a very skeptical

podcast, at least for me. Russell, he'll believe it. He hears a noise. Oh, it must be my great-grandmother saying, hi, Russell. I'm on Russell's side. And it was this thing of like, I realized with the psychic, and this is me

joking, I realized with the psychic, and I don't, this is me joking. I realized with the psychic that there was no way for me to politely undermine someone's entire profession. Sure, yeah, yeah, yeah. Because to say someone's profession is a scam. Sure. There's no cute way to go about that, if you're being honest. And so ultimately, I capitulated and by the end, we both got readings.

Which to me, looking for myself, I'm like, you failed in holding up your values. Now, I don't feel that same degree with comedy critics. And to be fair, if you say comedy critics, blah, blah, blah,

you mean me and Jason. Well, that's another point. I understand there's a degree of when you have a limited, when it's not 100 critics, part of your job, correct me if I'm wrong, is also just to hype up and highlight

the existence and wonders of comedy, period. Yeah, I mean, I think there's a few reasons. But one is I realized fairly early on that so many people, like, don't even know that you could take any comedian seriously. That part of it is just sort of, like, helping them understand what good can look like, right? So that's, like, the first goal. sort of like helping them understand what good can look like, right? So that's like the first goal. And then also you're like trying to bring in people who are skeptical because they only have one idea what a comedian is

and they don't like that idea to be like, look, there's all these different types of comedians. I think for me also personally, like I don't write reviews. I haven't written a review in a really, really long time because I don't like writing it. It is like a form of writing that I don't like to say, this is good and this is bad. like a form of writing that I don't like to say this is good and this is bad because like when I was confronted with the the job of ranking comedians or saying what good and bad is I think

I do a year-end specials list or I did a year-end SNL list where I consulted a colleague and they had a completely different list of 10 and I was like this is so subjective. And my experience as a person who watches 200 specials a year is so unrelatable to a person who watches two that I got in my own head that it's like my perspective is not useful to you. Now, that's probably incorrect. There's a value. But I do think what I land on, which I write about in the book, is like there are value systems that people have for what good looks like that a comedian can't, almost can't comprehend or shouldn't. Because if you're doing it, if you're an artist, you have to believe you are doing it the correct way to keep on doing it because it is hard to put yourself out there. And that's what we need artists to do is to say this is what I think funny looks like. And if you don't do that, then you're failing.

Our job is to not judge comedy only by one standard of what funny can look like or what stand-up can look like. And then when you zoom out enough, then you're like, there's no rules whatsoever. And that makes it more interesting to write about or like. And but I think what happens in that zooming out. Yes. And we have theater episodes. We have comedy episodes. And this is a comedy episode, folks.

I hate stand-up comedy. I don't know how you like me. But, you know, next episode. We have theater episodes. We have comedy episodes. And this is a comedy episode, folks. I hate stand-up comedy. I don't know how you like me, but, you know, next episode. I think what happens is you zoom out so much and the rules become, you know, it becomes so freeform that, in fact, it goes to the point that one neglects great joke construction and traditionally great stand-up comedians and sometimes gets lost in the weeds of this was a totally new perspective. This was

really weird. And I sometimes look at that weird stuff and I go, I think this is weird and bad. And sure sure one could accuse me of you're just not open to these forms and i say i think i am open to these forms but i also think that like there's there and then suddenly you sound like a conservative person going funny is funny yeah and i would i would say that that russell and i we we have a lot of comedic agreements

and our texts are often filled with uh do you want of comedic agreements and our texts are often filled with do you want to name the names? Our texts are often filled with certain people that give fault and we go like I think this is a scam. I think people have been tricked and I think there is a niche bubble that

happens in the New York world or in the LA world where it's like this is cool to this very small segment. And in fact, uh, earthquake should be on more of these lists. And, and I,

I, I sometimes see the, the way that you hold, you know, Seinfeld and those legends up, up here. And then tell me, what was the last time you went to the cellar?

Yeah, I don't, not, sure. But that's just my point. My point is that you, you, and I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna be a jackass the whole time.

No, it's fine. I was expecting the question also of how often I go to the cellar and it's often, it's the reasons I don't, which is one, I live in Brooklyn.

Two, you know, I have a family and it's nighttime. And three, too many comedians are doing things to me that are hacky that it is annoying to watch. When was the last time you went? I don't know.

A year ago or so? Sure. I think the lineup at the Cellar is more diverse. Sure. And it could be the particular show that you're going to. the particular show that you're going to but i but i also think like when i see the praise of the seinfelds of the people who literally went through this system that in my mind there's a certain degree of neglect or a certain degree of like that's that's the old thing that's club comedy and and yeah while praising the big rich fucking people who, by the way, most of them, 99%, are not making good stuff anymore.

And they're held up here. But the people who are in their gyms are viewed as like old school or hacky. And I always said, and I've said this to Jay, and I'll say it again. I've said on this podcast, there was an article once that listed Jay as like he's alt and he's club. Jay is club. Jay is club. I am club. We are both club comedians. And my argument was people are saying he's alt

because he's a beautiful bi black man. But he's not alt by any stretch of the imagination. Yes. I also think. I love you, Jay. Look, I love Jay. I know. good for him that he can get labeled as all but i do think i think one was our understanding what alt means now is

beyond people in this room or rooms like this there's so little alt as much as there was 10 years ago and even what was 10 what happened 10 so like alt comedy, which was invented, let's say, in 1990, was definitely different than what was happening in clubs. And then that kept on going through, let's say, some of that became club. Mark Maron was alt, and you could, Maron is a club comic now. Yeah, but I mean, I talked to like Bert Kreischer

and like Tom Segura were doing what was alt comedy at a time, which is sort of a story and blah, blah, blah. And also, but if you look at sort of what I would say third wave alternative comedy, which was like the Pete Holmes generation and like John Mulaney and stuff like that, which was really just at a time when the clubs were particularly not letting anyone in

who was not a certain thing. So then a lot of stand, what we think of as like standups, not alt, not so then a lot of stand what we think of it's like stand-ups not all not club they just do stand-ups we're just doing alt rooms by default and i do think that standard is mostly the standard that's kept up which is alt is just the people who have not gotten to the clubs yet now the clubs are getting better at who they book both in terms of just sort of both diversity of a demographic but also diversity of types of stand-up they're doing like i think that's definitely the case and i think they probably realize that but i also think

there are so few true alt people left like doing weird things like when i think of alt it's not like i do think because there was that small window where alt was defined by like the a movement of queer comedians that you're like oh well queer people are alt and then all straight people are sure but i don't think that's the case anymore because i do think a lot of queer comedians are doing like down the middle stand-up well i'll also say this i think because stand-up has become uh so over flooded uh with with people that like i will hear stories about patrice like walking rooms yeah yeah and still getting booked I go, that's a different time. If I walked a room once, twice, some of these clubs, I might not work and walk a room. And Alt requires you're going to be failing a lot.

You're going to be failing a lot, figuring it out. Some audiences are just not going to like you. And we live in such a competitive sphere that if you are that kind of comedian, there are 10 great comedians behind you who want to break into that room. But I think my frustration with, again, it's like kind of labeling the seller as easily as I think you have,

that you don't see, for example, Jeffrey Asmus, who is a club comic who I'm like, this is one of the great fucking joke writers of our time. And instead, this person is going around the country building up this base, and someday, later on, he'll have the special, blah, blah, blah. But it's like's they're there now the the the and sometimes i see people who aren't on these these like these lists and i don't just

mean vulture but i mean like also these end of the year lists sure it feels like a mix of a gigantically famous people where i'm like it feels like this was just to include the famous person and it feels sometimes like sometimes like a clutching for survival. I think every news publication is. So you want to share some big celebrities so that it's mentioned in the things. And when people look up their name, they see the article mixed with cool kids, some of whom are very funny. And Jay Jordan is a hilarious stand-up comedian,

and then sometimes somewhere I'm like, I feel like this is more about being cool than it is about being funny. And then someone goes, well, your definition of fun. And I go, okay, well, then let's just throw it all up in the air, and there's no such thing as funny. So then what's the point? Sure.

So there's two things. One, I think a lot of critics generally but like i can say for me have we've heard enough jokes that when we see a comedian who's doing jokes we want more vision from them like so so and that and to me joke writing is the craft of stand-up comedy and it's a wonderful craft but sometimes i see joke writers without vision and i'm like sure you can paint a perfect picture of what a house or a flower looks like but you're not doing anything artistically interesting for me sure sure so and then however right and i would include when i bring up aspas i i when i say i i don't know i don't mean like i'm not saying oh

he just does jokes i also think it's that. Sure. I think it's a unique. And I'll look into it. But. Look into it. I promise. But, and then, and right now there also is a lot of comedians with vision without craft whatsoever. And I do think that's partly because of a breakdown because of COVID, lots of people

who had vision realized they don't even have to do standup anymore. And they're like, oh, I have a tiktok account where i essentially can't get my comedy out sure what you don't need as much sort of like hard craft of like how i manipulate this audience um so usually the sort of best people sort of mix an amount of both and i i i am nervous that we we currently don't have a system that is going to create such comedians. Because, like, you know, if I think of Maria Bamford as the best comedian alive or the greatest comedian alive, that is my standard, to give a sense. She had to, she was able to maintain her vision of what a comedian is

while also figuring out how to translate to a larger audience than just the people are okay in a small room or a small bubble or whatever. She was a workhorse. I mean, like, number of shows meeting with people she figured out a way to do it right she's like i'm gonna do for i need to work on material i don't want to have to go to the store because i don't like the energy i'll just do stand up for one person at a time for three years or whatever yes but also like tick i think tick is incredible and take but like and she came up from a certain sort of situation. Now, I do think, I think, one, when you're writing, it's hard to just be like, here's this sort of text of a joke, and this is what makes it interesting or not.

And it's hard to think of an example like this person that I've not seen. But if there's more to it, there is more to it. And you can understand from my perspective why I go like because this is not and again it's it's not just as one person i could list more but i but i'm like about earthquake because earthquake is more famous so it's easier to be like because like i love earthquake i did earthquake in my podcast i was able to talk about and like i think how that goes that intimidating i did i did a show of his i've talked about before on serious exam and i was i was i drank at 2 p.m. because I was so nervous, and that's not what I do. He was cool.

I'm not Russell. I got lucky that people told him he should do my show and that it would be worth his time. So he then went into it not being defensive. he realized i like appreciated him not just like appreciate him on a level that interviewers tend to not which is like how i'm able to do my job in general which is that like most comedians are doing something and they don't think anyone notices why why isn't earth because i see what what year did earthquakes come out 2022 or was it the year before yeah it's either two years why was it look i didn't make that list yeah no no i'm talking specifically it was it was not a vulture list it was it was a different list didn't make that list. No, no, I'm talking specifically. It was not a vulture list. It was a different list.

But I just remember looking at it, and there were some just like, it was like some of the most famous comedians in the world. I was looking at the New York Times list that one year. I wasn't saying it. But yes, you're right. Didn't we talk about it? He doesn't have a rank list. He does like a thing of note list, right? Because he doesn't do a top.

It's not a rank, but it was like, yeah. There are things of note. Why was an earthquake on that list? You'd have to ask him. Right. Because he doesn't do a top. It's not a rank, but it was like, yeah, things are not. Why was an earthquake on that list? You'd have that same. I think it being not an hour long is a thing that might rub people the wrong way. I don't know why, but it's sort of like I remember it was just sort of a weird length. And I think also it's possible the value system of the people making lists are reviewing specials. They're not reviewing comedians, right? So they're like part of a special is like how does it look, especially now because people do make specials that look like something.

Can I also say that I do think that some of it is this same separation of club comedy and alt-D Brooklyn comedy because especially in like black rooms around the country, i feel like that enters more the sphere of club comedy and so when club comedy gets relegated as kind of this like traditionalist thing or seen as a way that oh it's all it it doesn't it's not particularly insightful or it leans on on this that or the other then suddenly you've you've not just you i just mean i mean the whole i think i am more anti the idea of club comedy than almost anyone I know. So it's fine to say me. Sure. Because most people don't care about this. This is a battle that he had to fight like 10 years ago.

Now people don't really care about that. Most people just go to the comic seller and it's fine or whatever. Or now union hall books, many more people that I would consider club comedians more so than you as a club comedian, people who I'm like, this is, this person would exist in only this world and their fan base would only

exist in this world. But right now there's sort of a fluidity. I think it's partly because Gen Z does not have such, they, they don't have the context of physical spaces the same as we do. Right. And so I think there's like other comedians that do it and they find it what they find.

I think like whatever hipster cred that I liked is that is of a different era. And I do think it's very useful to rebuild it just so we have division. So then you can be like, well, they're doing this thing, which is not necessarily better or worse. It's a personal preference and they're doing this thing. It's not worse. But and the audience expectations are different. And then and then it allows comedians to operate in certain situations. But I do think like, I think there's an orthodoxy that exists in comedy clubs, especially outside of New York and LA,

but especially outside of New York. I think LA clubs, I think do have this problem, which is like, you're playing to an audience with a specific expectation. LA comedians have a lot of problems. And one of the main ones is lack of jokes. Yeah.

But it's all, it's all, it's all, it's the worst of alt and club in so there's all it's all for you it's all it's the worst of alt and club in one but so it's like there's the commie seller expectation right so it's like especially for this is the prime problem the commie seller would say or the commie seller is an ideal which is one it really matters if you can perform there that's a really big deal it helps you professionally tremendously as a comedian. Two, that audience can be intimidating and impatient, more so than anything else.

So then it expects an audience, the comedian, to engage with that audience in a combative way. That's too far from me. Impatience is part of the art form. It's part of what you admire about Deaf Comedy Jam or the Apollo or that style. And my problem is that when something gets labeled as this club comedy, I would argue, it's also pushing away from being recognized a lot of black comics, an entire circuit. And I'm not

in that circuit. I just know about the intricacy of the circuit and as a performer I will see some comics that would never be included in a Vulture or a New York Times list and I go, this guy or woman is fucking amazing.

And I will add on top of that where I think there's also been a conflation of funny and liberalism, and I say this as fucking liberal cuck as they come, that even more isolates

a certain group. I'll give an example, and I want to say it delicately but but it's something i noticed certainly i worked at lol there was some there were i know it's i i know its reputation i'm not singing any praises i have an episode coming out soon where we just shit all over it but uh there were let's say two black comics that I think are, are really astounding, really astounding.

Now, when they're on stage, they might say the F word. Sure. They might say the F word. The F slur. The F slur. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We know we're saying fuck here. That's too far for me. They're saying the F slur. And, and I would,

I would argue there's a degree where that alone that alone yeah would mean they're not going up at butter boy anytime soon or if they ever did it would be a and it would be over and and that risk that which i i think it's – I'm certainly not advocating for non-gay people to say the F slur, but I'm saying that a value system was also partially created and fostered and agreed upon in a certain segment of society. Someone in a different segment of society, and I don't mean this obviously of black people. I mean this of someone who came from a different part of America where now they can no longer even entertain and mingle in the lists in the – because these lists, if they just existed as like cool, that's great. like cool yeah that's great they impact people's careers their livelihood the agencies that want to meet with them the just for laughs the this that and the other it's all an ecosystem and and i would argue that that the isolation of club comedy you you could make an argument that not only does it carve out a certain kind of comedian, but it also prevents an integration of comedy and could be harmful down, yes.

Yeah, I mean, I think there's a few things there. One, the, one second. Quick, say the F, sir. Oh my God. No, I mean, I think the sort of, the history and separation of black comedy not meaning comedian comedy done by black people but comedy done in black rooms yeah has been pervasive for you know the history of comedy and and partly not just because white people

doesn't don't want it partly because they're black comedians who do not want to be exposed to being white famous right or like they just don't want to be part of they're black comedians who do not want to be exposed to being white famous, right? Or like they just don't want to be part of that. There's a lot of comedians who I've asked to interview and they just don't want to deal with it, right? And I do think it's because they understand their comedy exists in a certain context and actually have no interest

in translating that comedy for different rooms. That is always the thing, which is like you can be, you can do whatever you want up into the sort of context you want to exist in, right? Which is how, and context means the sort of language expectations or something like that. Now, if you want to exist, appeal to people

who exist in a different context, then you're probably going to have to placate certain sort of expectations in that context. And a lot of comedians can do it, right? Like, I'm trying to think of it. There are black comedians that go up and down all the different rooms for whatever, right? I do agree that there is a media blind spot

to that entire segment of comedy, partly because it does not happen in New York and LA. A lot of it happens in Atlanta, and there's not journalism covering it in the same way. You would also say it happens at the Cellar. I think most comedians that are bubbling up at the Cellar, I find out about them in time, the same way as anything else,

which is I find about them in time. It's not like there are not black comedians that perform in what we consider alternative rooms of course and not black comedians on these lists um but i do understand what you're saying which is like i do think the of the many reasons the what we consider of alternative did become like a political divide more so than even a style divide which is frustrating to me because i do prefer it as a style divide more than a political divide but that is just the nature of like where society has gone and ultimately

i think probably to a sort of bifurcation of comedy of club and alt is abandoned to like a nine zillion people, right? Like I think to a Gen Z person, they would have no idea that there's two style of comedy because like, if you don't live in New York, you'd just be like, there's 9 million.

I wouldn't even know there's these two styles. I just follow these people. And they might only think club comedy exists because for the most part, only club comedy, that's the comedy people know. That's the comedy that's displayed on TV in terms of just like what a room looks like. It's a club and people pay drinks or whatever. That's why if you know. That's the comedy that's displayed on TV in terms of just like what a room looks like. It's a club and people pay drinks or whatever.

If you live in most cities, that's the comedy you go see because there's not alternative rooms that can be sustained in most places. I think it is. And that's part of an issue. Like we, our list is made up because we polled people. We paid like over 100 people. Sure. And those people are largely industry people and like indie bookers, broadly defined. We asked the comedy seller, I believe they voted. I didn't, I don't remember this year, but they usually suggest a certain amount of people.

And then it is a reflection of that group of people. Now that group of people is also they have their own biases they also are trying to tell the story of like what their life looks like and they might shine lights on certain people more than other certain people but also like they might not those those people might be people who also don't know who these black comedians are and that is a problem and it's a thing that we try to figure out how to get around but but i do think think this I think we can keep on talking about this list, but I do think the question of jokes is useful because I do think you love

jokes that are like jokes. Listen, that's your favorite thing is when a comedian does jokes that sound... I love jokes, but don't get me wrong. I come from a theater background and I don't say this to give me some points, but don't get me wrong. I come from a theater background, and I don't say this to give me some points, but I appreciated what Nanette was.

And again, I'm not saying, wow, look at me, but I'm saying I understood what it was. I understand why one of the funniest Nanette videos I've ever saw, it was Nanette at the Apollo, and they just coupled her jokes. I can look at that and I can go, these jokes about the color blue are pretty weak. But this overall piece and the significance and the arc, I see it. Now, I'm not going to share my thoughts on Douglas. I'm not going to share my thoughts on Douglas.

Wait, I had something to say, though. Which we watched together. We did watch together. We did watch together. It feels like this feels like um it is important for both of these worlds to exist it's important and and i think what it feels like is that there used to be more crossover there you know there used to be there was a time where there's less crossover then there was more crossover and now there's i don't even know when you think of an alt comedian now like i don't even know who you'd point to right i think like julio torres is a very successful i think of him as the generation before yeah i agree too i

agree uh but i i feel i mean i remember having conversation with minnie tucker and she was talking about how it felt like there used to be more i I mean, if you think about Mulaney, like if Mulaney was labeled like third wave alt. Yeah. By only me. No. But he was in a space. Maybe Jason knows. But I meant like literally this is not even like a comedy nerd conversation.

Most people aren't looking at this detached. No, for sure. But make your point. Just saying like I feel like both are important in that in the ideal world, if there was more crossover and if we were highlighting things from both, that you could be in an alt space and be able to push boundaries and things. And then you could also be in the other space and have a little pressure to get some laughs here and there. Because I feel like that is sometimes what's missing. It feels like I do think that both alone are limiting.

Yes, if you just have to kill, you're going to be a fucking hack road comic. But I do think, and I think where sometimes comedy criticism can get up its own ass is where I go, oh, but none of these jokes were good at all, or the whole act is weak. And then sometimes I think people from the outside, they watch a special, they go, wow, that fucking, that was, I didn't laugh. It is important to be funny. That is the premise of the art form of comedy.

You know, look, I think you're conflating a few things, which is one, jokes being good and a comedian being funny. And as I write in the book, I do not equate jokes as the art of doing comedy. Jokes is a pathway. And I do think there's an over-reliance on jokes in white club comedians. Like, because unlike— What do you mean by that statement? Yeah.

What do you mean by that statement? Because I do think— I don't mean bad. I don't just mean you have to go knock, knock. Like you can expand and explore. Sure. But I mean, the literal, the, the, the, to me, what, what, what you said is, is like, I think, uh, people rely on, on words too much for book writing. And I go like, no, that's what it is. And I'm saying that, to me, jokes, broadly defined,

broadly defined is the pathway in which a comedian communicates their funniness to the audience. And ultimately, now, if they're well-constructed, that might help in that process. But it doesn't necessarily need the construction. It's ultimately a pathway for an audience to get the funny energy of a comedian. Now, if a comedian has nothing like a joke and they're just sort of talking and telling through the beats of a story and they know the rhythms or whatever, that comedian can be doing a good job. I am not judging.

Ultimately, there are some comedians, while I will judge the craft of the joke because that's their value system and that is interesting of them. But there are other comedians who are joke light that I think are very effectively communicating the comedic thing that they are to the audience without the need for set up punch lines or or anything close to set up punchlines. I think both can exist, but I do think if you're listening to, I'm trying to think of the best example of someone who is very funny but is not, like, I would say, I don't know, like, I'd have to re-watch her last special to see if it's, but I think Beth Stelling does not often do things that sound like jokes. But you can say each piece is a joke. She's very funny. But I think she is incredibly good at communicating the comedic idea of Beth Stelling to an audience.

But I think her joke writing, I think her style is just more – it reminds me – there was something when they did the Ricky Gervais, Louis C.K. Seinfeld, and whatever, where Ricky was saying something to Louis about, I don't know if I'm taking this from your book. Am I taking this from your book? We'll see. It was the idea where Ricky was like, I love what you do, because it's like you're not even telling jokes. And Louis was like,

oh no, I'm totally doing what Seinfeld's doing, but with my own style. And I would say that about Beth Stelling. I think one of the reasons Beth Stelling is, I've never met her, but beloved by the club community too, is because there are jokes in there. It's just some people are less transparent about their delivery. And I think that white club comedians, especially white male club comedians, are half Jewish, half Italian, white club comedians, especially white male club comedians, are half Jewish, half Italian,

white club comedians. But I do think are more reliant on jokes that sound like jokes and then are shorter. And in that shortness, they are limiting the audience's exposure to who they really are. That would be my critique

of club comedians who only do clubs and think the idea of playing an alt room is for lazy people where nothing happens, which is not even true anymore. That center doesn't exist. Are there some alt comedians that are lazy and are just telling broad stories without the teeth?

So many comedians are lazy. I feel like almost every comedian I talk to has figured out a way of working as little as possible but now you say that about me no i read this whole goddamn book but i do think that they are like oh let me figure out a process that works with my brain and and ultimately and then work hard in whatever that is but a lot of those people are not like i'm just gonna sit down or i going to like shave it down to whatever it's going to be. They're going to be in front of people and figure out in front of people.

I agree. I think there still is a degree of dis. I can understand. And I, I understand not fully. Think of taste. I like well-constructed jokes. I think because I've seen,

I've seen a lot and I admire the beauty of a well-constructed jokes, I think, because I've seen a lot, and I admire the beauty of a well-constructed joke. I am going to see, hopefully, if no flights get canceled, Jessalyn at Carnegie Hall. I haven't seen much of this. And for me, that's my heaven, seeing Mulaney at City Winery. That's the kind of thing that I love to see. And Maria Bamford, because I know I'm going to get a lot of jokes. When Jessalyn tells a longer story, you're like, I'd rather him not be doing that? No, no, no.

Oh, thoughts. Listen, I will sing the praises that Thoughts and Prayers is one of the greatest comedy specials of all time. And it's because of the story and the opinion that he shared on Thoughts and Prayers before it was a common trope of talking about that. I'm not anti-story. talking about that i i'm not anti-story but i think what i feel as someone who loves jokes and who you know you clearly you're what's your podcast called yeah podcast i love jokes sure but how much that i i feel like i love jokes in a way where i self-hating joke lover i want it i want it it's so easy to defend jokes because they're like around and people have such a rigid idea of comedy which is jokes which is like so then they're jokes because they're like around and people have such a rigid idea of comedy, which is jokes, which is like, so then they're like, because that's like saying people have such a rigid concept of musicals singing.

Yeah. That's part of the art form. Well, I, I mean, I feel like I just mean laughs, right? You just mean like actually make you laugh. Do you? I mean, I know you love joke jokes. Yeah. I think we both. Yeah. I like your comedy. I've never seen know you love joke jokes. I think we both...

I like your comedy. I've never seen you tell a fucking joke in your entire life. It's a joke. It becomes... It's hard because they think... People have an idea of jokes, which is the thing that they read in joke books as kids. Then they're like things that sound more like jokes

comedians do, and then they're clearly a comedian. A joke for a comedian is like jokes comedians do. And then they're clearly comedian. You would, a joke for a comedian is like a piece or whatever. And I try to define jokes broadly, right? An act out is a joke. It can be right. Yeah.

And I, and I do think people sometimes define jokes too literally. So then I often push back on jokes. So people don't give them literally. I'd be like, Oh, X sitcom doesn't have any jokes. It's like,

well they do. It's just the characters behavior is the laugh moment. It's just not, they're like, and that's like a cross between a blah, blah, blah, and a blah,

blah, blah. I, I think the, the part of me that, that, that prickles is that I, first of all,

I know, I know some comics that I would go, Oh, it's just jokey, jokey that I don't like, or that it's quick or that I'm go like, eh just for the shock value or you just i think this was a joel can boost your tweet way back in the day of like i can't tell if something's funny on twitter or i just connected to disparate things yeah yeah and and i i know that but i think i almost feel i i

hate to use the word almost offended because it's the craft that i love yeah where i go like oh you think i can't paint a picture with the tool that i've shown to chose to fine-tune and in because it's the craft that I love, where I go like, oh, you think I can't paint a picture with the tool that I've chose to fine tune? And in fact, it's as if there's a belittling of the tool that I would argue is one of the main bricks of the thing that you love. And furthermore, that you praise of these older comedians that you praised because it was part of your childhood

when you were less observant and just laughing and enjoying stuff and now in this medium the people of my generation and younger it's viewed as almost a degree of like really jokes again and i i think they're they're jokes are beautiful i this is why and i am i think i i have a i i've noticed that people are doing more jokes now things that sound like jokes than they than they had in any time in my going to see shows in the last 15 years like things that sound like jokes where they have a joke ending. And I think there's a variety of reasons for it. But I'll explain why I'll say it sounds old school, which is, as you said, when I was people I praise for doing it or when I was a kid, which was 25 years ago. If you're doing, in any other art form, if you're doing the art that was

cutting edge 25 years ago now, you would be seen as doing old art now. And that's how I view it, which is art, which is like, represents... But it's not, but it's not, it's... But again, to go back to my metaphor, that's like saying people who do musicals where you sing

are still singing. Jokes are what are singing. Seinfeld is doing the same thing Don Rickles was doing. He's doing an iteration on it because he was doing more observations. I'm not doing what Seinfeld's doing. I'm happy to compare our things. Do they twist? Sure, but then

at some point, what, in a hundred years to be an original comedian, you have to just make noises with your nose. No, it's the idea that musicals are singing. I'm not fluent enough in the progression of musical theory. But I assume there are

tonal decisions that were different. I imagine there are decisions that... It's still music. Look, in classical music, there's a person who did a piece that there was no sound. it's john cage whatever the amount of minutes it is now what that was he saying this is the best piece of classical music ever no but that was a revolutionary thing that's very worth writing about i think the easier example is fine art right what i write about mostly in the book sure which is in 18 whatever painters were shown a photograph and realize they

are free not to paint as representationally anymore however and then all of what we think of as modern art is the result of that progress and other technological advances and blah blah but that did not mean people stopped painting houses that looked like houses or flowers that painted like flowers it just means that if you're writing from the perspective of like wanting to as as journalists are covering news broadly fine it means what is news what is pushing pushing the art form forward that is sort of what is what you're asking us to do is essentially like review just things based on sort of like craft excellence. Sometimes.

Sometimes, sure. I think there's a value. And I do that sometimes in the book. Well, you do. But I also think I see you do it with things of the past. And I go like there are things of the present that are not the same thing. But it is the medium of comedy. and i think the reason i i feel it personally is because i love that medium i love that medium and and i i see a praising of originality

over quality sometimes yeah i think that sometimes i don't look at these lists and go every every single person is is terrible on here but that's my yes i do think the praising of originality over quality is an interesting thing that is the the problem of and i do believe is almost exactly what jason said which is you there's only so many people doing this and they have to write this compelling enough to people who are outsiders. And what is easy. And then so it's like, what can you write compelling about that make people invested and interested in what's happening in comedy? And that means, one, someone doing a great job at a thing that's been done before is a hard story to write.

But two, they might not be interested in that part of it. They want to know what's going on. Sure. If there were more, if there was what you ultimately would need is a bunch of local comedy critics that review like. I love that. But we're moving in the opposite direction. So Jason and I are fighting for ultimately against an orthodoxy which says stand-up is the only art form that can't have anyone take it seriously at all. So as a result, we essentially have to write about the things that make it – that convey that this is an art form.

Now, that is beyond a craft. So it's harder to write about the craft part of it because we're often trying to make the case that it's an art form. There are few people that write about any art this is this is a from musical theater to theater in general to writing like writing writing to music criticism to film criticism very few people in their reviews are writing about it technically that just does not exist i don't know like i can't think of another critic who's writing technical reviews of like the scorsese movie and like oh how he uses mise in scene and blah blah blah and blah blah because that's just not really how they write you can do that maybe it's deep dive but you're you are you're it's like you're asking people to you're asking like architecture critics to like

see john architect who's's the best housemaker in Dayton, Ohio, and be like, that is fucking a perfect house. Sure, but I also think perfect houses should be praised and not taken for granted. Because then you're going to go, I like this house. Oh, it fell down, but it

was cool while it stood up for two seconds. That's a more interesting story than another good house. I think what's hard is sometimes you look at things and you'll be like, I don't believe that someone laughed at this. And that's ultimately the thing is like I get originality. I get things. But I feel like that's what is hard is sometimes you look at it and you're like, I can appreciate certain components of it. And if I was watching a theater piece where it was longer and there was more of a story and I don't know, I could maybe appreciate it more.

But there is something where you're like, I do expect to laugh. And if that's not happening. But people are laughing at all of these people. I pretty early on realized I can't be like, that's not funny because who am I to say? Because people are laughing at this stuff. People laugh at hacky stuff that i don't like true laugh true at like jokeless formless things that i don't understand that and i'm like well i can't just be like this is funny or not funny because who am i have subjective taste in it totally like it's the

same thing being like i that song not catchy even despite it's being a pop song that people like i mean like look i saw to bring it back to musical theater i saw sweeney todd on broadway no person has ever killed harder than annalee ashford at sweeney todd right now have you guys seen it she i know who she plays she's okay she crushes like sure ernie mack in the clip that i described yeah to this audience of people paying a thousand scared you motherfuckers anduckers. And she's doing the broadest physical comedy you could ever imagine. Now, I can't be like, this is sophisticated music. It's just because this audience...

Sorry. I was in my murmur. The battery. I just want to make sure you... I don't want the die. Oh, my God. This is unplugged. That's okay.

So, people laugh at things yeah no no yeah like i have to be judging more on than which is hard which is i think this is a this is a i wouldn't say a gripe like a thing that people find surprising about anyone who writes about comedy is that we have to judge more than what we laugh at uh- at because we have to assume that people are laughing at it to a degree yeah otherwise we are just being like what we had a subjective and that's too that is to my opinion too biased as a thing to be judging things on right because like who what are my tastes i have i have a i'm a 38 year old guy with my certain background right like i can't be like well these 10 people that make me laugh the most are the funniest comedians.

It'd just be wrong, right? Sure. So we have to think of, we have to create new value systems and hope that my goal and the goal of the book, the goal of everything I do, is that people go to comedy shows and don't have any expectation for what the comedian can do. That's my number one goal, which then frees the comedian up to be any type of comedian. They can be literally just reading one-liners like they're doing, Henny Youngman one-liners, or they can be Gerard Carmichael,

and it's just sort of a vibe you're in for an hour. Sure. I can name names, even though I love Gerard Carmichael, just because Gerard is, because he's so charismatic and because people let him just sit and do whatever he wants, he can essentially push the art forward just so then when it's as big a palette as possible

and then audience have no expectation of what they're going in for, then they are as open and then the comedian can be open and then everyone can create a more beautiful culture of being. Sure, do a degree. Yeah. A&W is now serving Pret Organic Coffee, and you can get a $1 small coffee, a $2 small latte, or like me, a $1 small coffee and a $2 small latte.

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But I just, I, this, and then we can, I do want to, you know, for poor people who don't like, so what I, sometimes what I do want to, you know, we, we, poor people who don't like, so what I, sometimes what I love with, with comedy and the thing that I take pride in, like as, as a road comic. Yeah. Who, who I think like, and I think road comics often can feel like, God, does anyone understand

this? When, when my very conservative stepfather, uh, I put on Anthony Jesselman. And, you know, his jokes certainly aren't, they're edgy. They're edgy in a way that a conservative might come to gripes with. Yes. And to watch my stepfather go like, is really special. And I think what happens when it becomes too insular and people increasingly let go, people get too far of the point of like, oh, well, just because it's not funny for me doesn't mean it's not funny. Then people get to a place where it's like, well, then are we allowed to – can you look at anything and say anything? And I go like – then it becomes too far where suddenly I see things and I'm like,

but this isn't funny. And you feel crazy. You feel a degree of like, am I crazy? Am I crazy? I don't see this as funny. And people will go, I just remember there was one particular show that I won't say,

and a friend of mine said, well, yeah, it's not funny, but it wasn't made for us. And I thought in a way that was so condescending. I understand where it came from, and it was also two white people talking about a non-white person performer, and there was a degree of it wasn't made for us, and I wanted to be like, i think that's condescending i think in fact this thing is not of a high quality and in fact to to to to pretend like this it's not capable of that yeah you're actually letting someone off the

hook and furthermore you're allowing people to tune into the thing and they go oh that's not funny oh all these fucking liberal elite fucking motherfucking and i'm like there is quality out you're allowing people to tune into the thing and they go, Oh, this is not funny. Oh, all these fucking liberal elite fucking motherfucker. And I'm like, there is quality out there, but, but you, once you let go of the word,

you can't say nothing's not funny. It becomes very hard. It is this, this feeling you have is very, is a frustration that I believe. And as a frustration, many artists of many art forms have to reckon with. And it's,

it's hard like chefs right it's like there was a french cook the value systems of french cooking were the dominant value systems for what good cooking was for a very long time then people push back upon those orthodoxies what were the what like what were they that they certain sort of precision, like a fanciness, using like richness of sauces. Like it definitely was like heavy on fat, higher fat, but less dynamic range of cooking because that is more cerebral or whatever. Right. So then people started praising food of different ranges. Right. It's like, oh, Thai food is definitely has a wider dynamic range than French food. And then you go like, yeah, but it's less subtle.

It's like, well, that's not the value system of that thing. And then then their brain breaks. Right. So then you have to create new ways of doing it or you have to essentially just judge the art based on the value system that seemingly it has. And that is a difficult thing. And it is extremely abstract, which is why that's why critics do it. And comedians don't do it because we like that we like being in an abstract place of how do we how can we reckon with this thing when there is not an agreed upon idea of taste because when you do try to create an agreed upon idea taste it becomes so like that is like film has this problem where there's this canon of what good is that it's essentially like 99 movies directed by white guys that so that is like what good is however that it becomes so biased and so

rigid that it then finds a way of being exclusive it's hard i do and i think it's particularly hard now because of how people get comedy which is through social media so then they're only seeing comedy that appeals to specifically their taste so then it's harder and i do agree and i do one of my goals going forward after i wrote this book was like now i need to figure out can we figure out a way to communicate what good is to people i have an idea of a very very ambitious project which i can't talk about now because i have it's way too early but part of the goal is to be like can we agree that this is what good looks like because that is not we were have you emailed me about this yet no it's not it's it it's it is a it's a 2025 project but it's gonna be sure that's how long it's gonna be and i'll tell you what it

is afterward but the goal of it is in the time of the internet where people are truly they're like oh my favorite comedian is this person do you know and the people like i have no you what it is afterward. But the goal of it is, in a time of the internet where people are truly, they're like, oh, my favorite comedian is this person. Do you know him? And the people are like, I have no idea what this is. And I have no context for them. And they're like, it just seems annoying. Like, if you watch a comedian without any of the context of their act, you'd be like, they're not even doing comedy anymore. They're just, like, making funny faces. But the audiences love those faces, right?

Like, there's a terrible version of you who doesn't write the jokes, who just does the expressions. And there might be part of your audience. Except for my first year. Who will be like, that's my guy. Sure. And sometimes with some of these audiences, it's more about familiarity than great comedy. They just want to see their guy. Yeah.

And I don't, that's not, to me, that's not a perversion of the art form. And I don't, that's not, to me, that's not a perversion of the art form. Because to me, ultimately, the feeling of comedy is not so far removed from the feeling you get when you're with your friends. And you're not going to your friends because my friend specifically writes hard jokes. You're like, my friend's funny. But if you looked at the script that he said, it's not like good jokes. They're just sort of his vibe that he's. Sure. So, so I guess my question for you would be,

and I haven't seen your most recent stuff, but I have been up to date. It'll be on Netflix November 28th. Yeah, and I can't wait to see it. I'm just kidding. But I want to see it, but it's like, do you... Is there a length of joke that you feel would be too long for you?

Like, could you go up and be like, I'm going to do 50 minutes just on this one thing. No, I mean, at least my dad's heart surgery i'm still the whole hasan minaj thing made me want to kind of add something to the end of it but but no it's it's like a six seven minute story but my uh i i have a lot of i i move through it through jokes i'm a big i think big... Later in comedy, I fell in love with the Jeff Sonics of the world. As I was constructing that story, I said, can I make these greater points

but fucking every punchline, can it be a level that is really great and constructs something bigger? I'm definitely a joke emphasis person. Also, it's partly how I write. I write everything down because I think I was a playwriting acting person first. So that informs how I ultimately came to write it.

And I think as I get – I have some other bits that now that I'm doing longer time, it's different. Do you ever feel scared when you're doing material or do you feel like the jokes make you or prevent you from being as vulnerable? Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. But that, because that will be the critique of it. And I'm not, and I'm just asking you

because I didn't know. No, no, no. And I don't, I don't mind that critique, but I, I would say that's partially the reality of like, I'm like,

well, let me get to a place where I have, where I trust. I'm also delivering for audiences that don't know me and I'm there. I also think sometimes comedians lose sight of some degree of like, Hey, these people, you think about, wow, they hired a babysitter and I'm going to come out there and I'm going to,

and so I have some stories that I talked through, of course, but then I work on those stories and I try to have some hard fucking jokes in there to keep it going. But at the service of a greater point, I don't think I'm just making jokes for the sake of jokes, which I do think some do. And I do think it's exhausting. Well,

we let, let's, let's, I feel like this is what I would give to any jokes ordered people, which is at some point the audience there, you will want not the joke. There'll be a moment in that story in any story right where they don't want they want to feel you will know who i am from my jokes for sure good i mean do you think yeah i um it's hard to to talk about everything without just

naming exact things and which we can't do and we don't we shouldn't do so it's hard to, to talk about everything without just naming exact things and which we can't do. And we don't, we shouldn't do. So it's hard to, I'm free to, it's like, I want to bring up,

it's hard to use examples of things without, you know, cause you don't want to be, yeah, it's very, it's, it's, it's,

it's tough. It's tough. I think like I'm more, I'm shifting more to a place where I'm like, all right, I have to, if i say something on this podcast people some people will hear yeah and i got to deal with that because comedy you just you just run into all of them yeah i mean i made i made a hassan minaj joke and i just thought like i'll i'll run into him soon yeah he's around yeah i mean it's that it's hard because that then, I don't think it will affect it because so many people are doing one-person shows now. And I think it's beyond him now.

It, like, expanded out of nowhere. No one was doing one-person shows seven years ago. And I think. I think what's so frustrating for me is I remember I got a letter with Anthrax in it, and I accidentally spilled it on my daughter. And I didn't talk about that because I thought, well, it happened to him, too. Turns out it didn't, and he got the glory for it. Let's move on to our next segment. This has got to stop.

We should power through these. I'll do a quick This Has Got to Stop. Russell, you don't have to weigh in on this because I know these SNL cold opens. We got to reshift from post-Trump era. I don't need it to cover everything that happened i there is there is nothing funny about the speaker of the house thing it is just a bunch

of incumbent incompetent idiots uh just trying to to to get the thing they they want in there i i it feels like a checklist i think i could print out the top 100 things that trended on Twitter that week, and none of the jokes are – I just want you to take a swing. I just want you to take a swing on some weird sketch. The one sketch I always think of – and maybe you're quoting your book, The Will Ferrell American Flag on his – Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I guess I'm just quoting your book at this point, but it was the – this is how you know I read it. It was post-911, yeah, yeah. I guess I'm just calling your book at this point, but it was the... This is how you know I read it. It was post-Wilson. Oh, yeah. It was the second episode after 9-11.

Oh, yeah. Damn, that's so old. But I remember watching it, and it's basically Will Smith is so patriotic... Will Ferrell. Oh, Will Ferrell. Oh, Jesus, Will Smith. Also in the book. Will Ferrell is so patriotic, he's wearing an American flag thong, essentially, and that's the joke. And the funny thing is this person in the office

doing this thing. And it's like, man, that is... And just having a simple thing that doesn't involve 38 people, it feels like... Yes, 38. I don't know when that shift happened where we had to cover everything

and have everyone... I think Trump did so many things it felt like if you didn't address it, you were literally not talking about the thing everyone wanted to hear this is my defense and i defend snl in this perspective in the book but and they've been doing it this they're my part my least favorite part of the show that's always happened because it always is kind of just like a thing that happened this week here's a reflection of it i think of the cold opens as a loss leader like essentially like we have to do that to prove the shows happened this week.

It is so silly. It is because that is not a comedy. It's going to hurt those reruns. I'll tell you that. There is a degree of like these reruns are going to feel. But a lot of people cut stuff out reruns if he feels like it doesn't age. He's going to cut all the cold opens. I think that the.

Have you ever watched the old episodes? I feel like the Will Ferrell one does that, too. But that wasn't a cold open. That episode. Oh, it was not a cold open. No, that was not a cold open. Oh does that too but that wasn't a cold open it's that episode was not a cold open oh i thought it was a cold open oh that was it in the cold open that week was like freaking ashcroft doing some whatever yeah okay well yeah yeah it was like daryl hammond doing some impression of someone maybe george but see i think it would be radical though to do something simpler like that only The only time they do that, sometimes they'll do sports cold opens and they tend to be a bit better. But so often, I don't know when it started, but like for a really long time, they like to open with news to be like this shows this week.

Yes. Yeah. And it's not unlike why a lot of late night shows start with a 10 minute monologue that's just recapping the news. It is just to be like, this is this. This is today. Now today is over and we're being a show it is so silly but like look at it that's lauren figured out a formula that some reason works yeah and there are those people still who are like something happens the news and like can't wait for snl this week i have never met that person in person, but I see them on Twitter, and I think their taste in comedy is weird, but

I get it. Why not make them better? There's an SNL tweet that was up there. This has got to stop. We only have a little bit of time. I can do a comedy one, but it might... Let me do a comedy one, and you can see if it's going to be too long.

This has got to stop. If the audience isn't laughing at you, you don't tell them they're a bad audience. Agreed. I agree. 100%. 100%. 100%. Don't... Yeah.

Almost every show you go to, and you're like, stop. Stop. It can't be happening this often. It can't be that. It doesn't help anything. And I know why you want to do it, it's your brain can't process that you're doing. It's just like but it it one ruins the show kind of for every comedian afterwards. Now they're in their head is like we're an audience and we're doing a bad job.

Yes. And it's like you you did the wrong combo to unlock whatever. I do think they're the only the only part of it that I'll defend is that, let's say you say something that's dark that the audience really just goes like, I do think there's an allowance to address like, oh, a little too spicy. It's got to be at least like, we're still going to have fun.

Yes. But I think as a comedian, you do feel a need. You do have to acknowledge sometimes what happened. But there's a different scene like, ooh some once in a while i'll be like oh so the audience brought some morality to the basement on mcdougall street on a tuesday at a like but it should be another joke yeah you're you're bad that's yes yes i i remember it's just like one of the last times i went to a comedy

seller someone made a joke about a cab driver smell bad. And the audience didn't laugh. When did you? When were you at the seller? Yeah. And then the audience didn't laugh because it's like, you know, like that. Possibly you just saw a bad show at the seller. Wait. I feel like, truthfully, let me tell you. I feel like I saw the same comic at one of the recent shows when I went to see you before. I feel like it was the same joke.

It's probably the same guy that's been doing it. I'm trying to get it back to the cellar it's probably the same guy that's been doing i remember because after the show you said oh my god that one comedian with the smelly driver yeah yeah and that meeting then attacked the audience for the rest of the set and it's like you now first letter of what the name no idea no idea okay well i'll say who it was afterwards but okay and then it's like you both. Join the Patreon. We'll tell you that. Ruined that 10 minutes of the audience's time.

You also like completely lost your opportunity to like do a good set because you're now so. Yes. It's just like remove that idea unless you're going to make a bit out of it, which is okay. Of course. Because then you can do, if you do a good job, you can then rearrange. It's like, oh, it's like you do a type of joke. It's too edgy for the audience. You're like, that's where they are right now. Yeah. Then you can, then you can use rearrange it's like oh it's like you do a type of joke it's too edgy for the audience you're like that's where they are right now yeah then you can then you can use it as sort of a trial balloon that's good there was a comic from lol that did like a brooklyn show

got booked right like it was like a comic working lol booked on our book show you never would have a comic on a show outside lol and they were bombing and then they started to go into a bit where they did like an arabic accent and it was to watch it to watch it from afar was was very funny to witness that that's that their mind was like i'll go this direction yeah incredible yeah the worst was i i remember it i think it was when hannibal used to have his show a a very established good comedy stellar comedian didn't realize he was bombing because he was so on autopilot and i like, that's the worst case scenario where it's just like he's doing it because he always kills. He's like, and you're like, the audience is like, we don't even know what this stuff is. And that is this fear.

It's when the audience, when the comedian doesn't even know they're bombing is a very funny thing. Let's just do a blessing real quick. We have a pitch meeting with, speaking of, speaking of, our sketch team has a pitch meeting come up. Is there a blessing? Is there something you're grateful for? I like video podcasts. I think it's good. I think more people should do it.

It's because who was doing it in the past made the world of video podcasts only a one, it was like the only video podcasts were for the worst parts of right-wing comedy fans. So now that we have a more uh wide palette i think it's good uh that now maybe like a 15 year old boy can be like oh maybe like i don't have to hate everyone other than other 15 year old boys i'm glad you like maybe it's you that i'm creating yeah uh so uh uh this is coming oh you have one yeah oh real quick um uh you know the the quality of salad places has gone down.

Sweet Green, Just Salad, all the ones that at one point were. The decline of Sweet Green has been tough. And they've all gone down. But the woman today, I just had it. I popped into a Sweet Green or a Just Salad. And, God, she did a really good job. I mean, it was like. At a Just Salad.

At a Just Salad. At a Just Salad. It was like everything was mixed well. She, like, really d a really good job. I mean, it was like... At a just salad. At a just salad. At a just salad. She, it was like, everything was mixed well. She like really diced up the avocado. So it was like, sometimes you do it and they just throw that avocado in. So anyways, that woman. I just, it's been a long time. 25%.

Hey. It's because I was like, I was... Good for you. I mean, I could tell. You know when you get it, she hit it and you're like, that looks amazing. And it was. And I'm thankful for her. All right, Jessal, sponsors, please.

Mine, I had a great Shabbos meal with Tova's friend Michelle in Chicago. We were running late, and as I'm always reminded, Tova was like, we can't be late because we can't text them that we're late. Yes. And my bad, Tova. But Michelle, what an incredible meal. It was astounding. The leftovers were fantastic. This is coming out November 21st.

What do you want to plug? I have a book. It's called Comedy Book. It looks somewhat like this. I'll hold it to camera. It's about how comedy functions as an art form and functions as part of our society. I read about a lot of comedians with lots of different styles and different amounts of laughs per minute and that's okay russell what do you want to plug uh nothing but uh follow me on instagram at russell

j daniels and you can see me gutenberg well you can't see me but i am in gutenberg on broadway uh but i'm backstage uh he's in the back with the voodoo doll of josh gad uh guys i'm at dc comedy loft november 24th and 25th. It's four shows. This is my homecoming weekend. Check it out. And then Uncle Vinny's Comedy Club December 1st, December 2nd. Yes, that's the place Ariel Elias got the beer can thrown at her. Yes, I am returning to it because I am

pathetic. And yeah, remember guys, what does funny even mean? This is the downside. One, two, three. Downside. You're listening to The Downside. The Downside.

With Gianmarco Cerezi.