The Dr. Hyman Show - Fix Your Allergies By Fixing Your Gut And Changing Your Diet with Dr. Cindy Geyer

Starting point is 00:00:00 Coming up on this episode of The Doctor's Pharmacy. If somebody has a lot of histamine symptoms and are struggling, it's also worth a trial of a low histamine diet. Hey everyone, it's Dr. Mark. I know a lot of you out there are practitioners like me, helping patients heal using real food and functional medicine as your framework for getting to the root cause. What's critical to understanding what each

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Starting point is 00:03:03 stronger and more energized than ever. And now let's get back to this week's episode of The Doctor's Pharmacy. Welcome to The Doctor's Pharmacy. I'm Dr. Mark Hyman. That's pharmacy with an F, a place for conversations that matter. And if you've ever suffered from allergies, or you're struggling with seasonal allergies, you better listen up because you're going to learn a lot about how to deal with this problem in a way that you probably never heard before that could really help you. And today we have as our guest, none other than Dr. Cindy Geyer, who's joined our practice at the Ultra Wellness Center recently.

Starting point is 00:03:36 I've worked with her for over 20 years. She was the medical director at Kenya Ranch. She's an extraordinary physician. I'd go see her any day for me. And we're so lucky to talk to you today about allergies, not food allergies, but seasonal allergies, which we've covered a lot about food allergies or sensitivities.

Starting point is 00:03:52 But I think this is a vexing problem that affects so many people. These over-the-counter drugs, people are buying like candy. And I think most of us think we're sort of doomed to just have allergies. We get allergy shots. But the truth is there's so much that's driving this overactive immune response that we can modify once we understand what's going on underneath. who struggled and had just remarkable benefits by adjusting some of their lifestyle habits,

Starting point is 00:04:25 the diet, and also improving their other factors, which we're going to talk about, like the gut, for example. So welcome, Cindy. Thank you, Mark. It's good to be here as always. So tell us, you know, what is the problem with allergies we're having in this country? How prevalent is it? What are the symptoms that most people get? What causes it? And how does traditional medicine typically deal with this problem? Well, allergies have been around for a long time. So it's not a new problem. It's when your immune system makes antibodies, usually called IgE antibodies, to something that you're breathing in or exposed to in the environment, like a dust allergy or a pollen allergy or grass allergy. And when that happens, these mast cells that contain histamine dump their histamine and cause all the symptoms that

Starting point is 00:05:16 we recognize as allergy symptoms, congestion, sneezing, itchy nose, itchy eyes, watery eyes, sometimes wheezing tightness in the chest, it can contribute to asthma. And one of the things that sort of gets overlooked is just how exhausted people who have active allergies can feel. It's a really common contributor to just low level lethargy and fatigue. So those are the classic symptoms. Even though it's not new, the prevalence is unfortunately increasing. There are a lot more people nowadays with allergies, actual allergies than there were 50 years ago, 100 years ago. And we can talk about some of the reasons why that happens.

Starting point is 00:05:58 You know, and typically we're going to treat it or in traditional medicine, you treat it with identifying the allergen, trying to remove it, treating the symptoms with antihistamines, maybe nasal steroids, maybe an inhaler for your lungs, or trying desensitization shots or drops to try to downregulate that response. And what we see often is sort of this resignation that, oh, I've got allergies. It's just what I've got. And there's nothing I can do about it. So like Eeyore, right? I had to take these medications and these nasal sprays. And the truth is that most of the allergy medicines are pretty benign, but the steroids, the steroids are not. And they're often used pretty aggressively like Flonase and

Starting point is 00:06:43 Nasonex and all these inhaled steroids that, you know, may reduce symptoms, but then cause osteoporosis and cause, you know, other immune suppressing issues. And, you know, people really suffer from these problems. And the question is, you know, why are we so overreactive to things that are just part of our normal environment, right? I mean, that's the question nobody's really asking. It's like, well, allergies is something humans get.

Starting point is 00:07:06 Well, guess what? Not necessarily. When you look at populations and indigenous cultures, when you look at even kids who grew up in America on farms and are in the dirt. I mean, I thought I don't have any allergies. And I'm like, well, I don't have allergies. And I realized when I was a kid,

Starting point is 00:07:24 every summer I went and lived on a ranch with 50 horses, shoveling horse manure and getting really dirty and sleeping in the dirt. I mean, I don't even think I washed my hands all summer. You know, and I think there is a lot of data on this and the science of why we have allergies. So I'd like to kind of go into that a little bit with you. Why are there prenatal reasons? Are there early childhood reasons that set people up for allergies? What are the things that kind of tend to predispose people? And how do we sort of begin to think about that?

Starting point is 00:07:58 Because that's really about like a prevention strategy, right? So that's a great question. I mean, our immune system is designed to be able to respond to things that it needs to respond to, but not react to airborne pollens or foods that we bring into our bodies. And it turns out that there may be early life influences that help educate or train that immune system to learn what warrants a reaction, like a parasite, for example, and what doesn't warrant a reaction like the pollens. So what's emerging is some of the factors that are making people more likely to develop allergies now could be related to

Starting point is 00:08:39 more C-sections as opposed to vaginal deliveries, more antibiotic use in childhood, more frequent hand washing, being indoors, some of the things that you mentioned about your own life, that exposure to certain microbes early on that are friendly and beneficial help teach the immune system that that's what it's going to be quiet and react to, whereas it shouldn't be reacting to the things that we breathe in. There's even evidence before delivery that a mom who has allergies and asthma, so there's a genetic component, her diet in pregnancy may also impact her offspring's future risk of developing allergies and asthma. So there's evidence that we can put things in place that might lower somebody's risk in the first place with a healthy diet and pregnancy. You know, some women have to have a C-section. So I think what's really fascinating is research going on now that you've probably heard of vaginal seeding or bacterial baptism has a couple of different,

Starting point is 00:09:42 couple of different names to it. Don't do it at home. That's where you take the vaginal fluids and you put it in the baby's mouth to inoculate the baby's skin. Yes, yes. Because that vaginal delivery, it's swallowing all those lactobacilli and getting coated in the lactobacilli of the mom that helped train the really immature immune system that this is a healthy microbiome. Babies born by C-section, their first exposure to bacteria is going to be the

Starting point is 00:10:10 deliver room nurse's skin flora, very different populations than what normally colonizes healthy gut. There is a higher prevalence of allergies and asthma in those kids. You mentioned growing up on a farm, having multiple siblings, playing in the dirt, having pets, paradoxically decreased the risk of allergies and asthma. If a dog licks you all over your face and sleeps in your face, you're less likely to have allergies, right? Believe it or not, yes. You know, it's interesting. I think there's a whole theory of these missing microbes. There's been a book called Missing Microbes written by a professor,

Starting point is 00:10:47 I think he's a Columbia or Cornell NYU, and Michael Gerson, and he talks about the fact that we have lost so many of these indigenous microbes that help us regulate our response to foreign substances, right? So we should not be having an overreactive response to things that normally shouldn't bother us. We should be tolerating them. They shouldn't be

Starting point is 00:11:09 affecting us. And, and we've seen, you know, a lot of other books like the epidemic of absence, and this goes for all allergy for autoimmunity and more. And I think one of the, you know, most striking things that, that, you know, I've seen as a study years ago was, was way back when we were just starting doing this work in Canyon Ranch. There was a paper published that showed if you gave pregnant women lactobacillus while they were pregnant, and then you give the babies lactobacillus after they were born, or even if you didn't, the babies would have far less eczema and asthma and allergies just by virtue of that. And it turns out that there's a bacteria that's so important for helping regulate immune function and reduce inflammation and help with the development we call oral tolerance, which is

Starting point is 00:11:57 when you eat, you know, why don't you, when you eat a chicken, you don't become a chicken or you don't react. It's because your body knows what to do there's a a company called in bbo that's created a bacteria strain that's called bifidobacterium infantis and this is infant means infant right so this is a very important bacteria that should be in every baby's gut and it's also in should be in every mom's system and the problem is that one are overuse of antibiotics during pregnancy, during delivery. And even before, I mean, there isn't probably a woman on the planet pretty much who hasn't had an antibiotic sometime in her life. And these bacteria are super sensitive to antibiotics and you will literally wipe them out. And so there's a whole generation of kids

Starting point is 00:12:44 being born with increased allergy and autoimmunity and inflammation and asthma. And it may be in part due to the sort of widespread genocide of this particular bacteria that now you can take as a supplement and they're giving it to pregnant women. They're giving it to babies in the first hundred days. What they're seeing is dramatic reductions in the sort of consequences that we typically see in these kids, such as allergies and autoimmunity. So I think this whole field, how do we sort of reset the gut? How do we reset the immune system? How do we sort of calm things down? So, so important. Yeah. There's another piece related to that,

Starting point is 00:13:21 Mark. And that's what's been fairly recently recognized that another advantage of breastfeeding your baby is breast milk is rich in prebiotics that actually allow a bloom of beneficial bacteria in the baby's gut. So if they're being bottle fed, they're missing another opportunity to help develop a resilient ecosystem in their gut. Yeah, absolutely. I think that's so important. But the problem with it, the breast milk, is that not everybody gets it. And we need to think about how do we put the oligosaccharides, these non-digestible starches that are in breast milk, into formula if kids are drinking formula.

Starting point is 00:14:00 And what's interesting in terms of this bifidobacterium infantis is that it really loves this particular food. It loves the oligosaccharides it's in breast milk and it feeds on it but the problem is if the babies or the mother doesn't have it even if they get the oligosaccharides it won't feed it because it's just not there it's just not there yeah yeah so it's really important um so let's go into your story because this is not just an abstract medical thing you're doing with your patients. This is something you've really suffered from and you've learned about and tell us about what happened to you and what you found, how you dealt with it and what changed. Yeah. So we often use the term of peeling the onion,

Starting point is 00:14:42 right? And Mark, it's interesting because I was born vaginally. My mom breastfed me. So she was kind of an outlier back in her generation. I grew up in South Carolina, playing in the woods. I remember getting, okay, this is kind of gross, but we would get hookworm and pinworm. We certainly had some parasite exposure, played in the dirt, had pets, but I developed pretty significant dust allergy and cat allergy. So lived most of my adult life with chronic congestion, sneezing, itchy eyes,

Starting point is 00:15:12 itchy nose. And I did the usual. I took loratadine and nasal sprays to kind of keep it at bay. And as you mentioned at the very beginning, I thought that was just my lot. Runs in my family. I've got allergies, right? I also noticed early on, but didn't know what it meant. I never liked fermented foods. I didn't like pickles. I didn't like vinegar. I didn't like any of that food. I don't remember having a reaction. I just had an aversion to them, did not like them. That's a clue that we'll come back to in a moment. And over the years, as we looked at different types of testing, you know, sometimes we at Canyon Ranch, we would vet a test before we brought it on,

Starting point is 00:15:48 and we would often do it on ourselves. The one thing that kept showing up for me with food sensitivities is lots of antibodies to dairy. Okay, I like my day, I'm not allergic to dairy, but I had IgG and IgA antibodies to dairy. So I did experiments off and on, I'd cut my dairy out and put it back in, I'd cut it out and put it back in. And the only symptom I really noticed was some joint aching. Long story short, I finally cut it out for other reasons, along with some other things. I don't have as many allergy symptoms anymore. My environmental allergies are quieted down. I'm not on medications. So it's really interesting how when we empty the bucket of triggers to histamine,

Starting point is 00:16:34 it may make us less reactive to things that we have a true allergy to, if that makes sense. Yeah, I think that's right. I think there's an important concept that you're talking about, Cindy, is that, and I've seen this in my practice over and over, is that when I have patients who have allergies, when I fix everything else, their allergies get better or go away. Right. a leaky gut and fixing that and making sure the microbiome is optimized, making sure we get rid of all the bad bugs, put in the good bugs and the prebiotics help nourish the gut. And, and that really helps so many people. And of course, you know, trying to minimize your exposures, if there's things like duster cats, but even,

Starting point is 00:17:18 even those things that are environmental allergies will go way down once you fix the food. Often people will have corresponding food sensitivities. So they're not necessarily related to the environmental allergies, but when their immune system is just pissed off about everything, it just reacts worse. So they end up having, for example, maybe food sensitivity to dairy, like you said, or gluten or something else, and they have environmental allergies. The environmental allergies will be a lot worse if you don't deal with those oral allergies that are really causing them also to suffer.

Starting point is 00:17:50 And then sometimes, you know, there's some really amazing things you can do around histamine too, right? So you mentioned histamine and you've had a low enzyme DAO that is important in sort of neutralizing histamine, but you can't do that so well. So, you have to actually potentially supplement with that, right? Right. And it's interesting, Mark, that you say that because I only found that out this past year with one of the new genetic tests that I, both copies of my gene that codes for the DAO enzyme that breaks down histamine, it codes for a slow version of it. So even without allergies, I may be more prone to having histamine-like reactions. But some foods have

Starting point is 00:18:31 histamine, those fermented foods, they tend to be really high in histamine. And in retrospect, the fact that I have difficulty genetically breaking them down might explain my body's wisdom and not liking those foods. I mean, it's a story, but it makes sense. It makes a lot of sense to me. Yeah, and I think it makes total sense. And then, you know, we can treat people by, one, removing the foods they're reacting to, two, by optimizing their gut and healing a leaky gut,

Starting point is 00:18:56 by three, helping them support histamine breakdown with histamine breakdown enzymes. We can also give herbs and supplements that can help like vitamin C and quercetin and other things that help a lot. So can you talk a little bit about the supplementation role of certain things that can help reduce allergies and allergy symptoms? Sure. So you mentioned DAO. For people who are really symptomatic, that can make a big, big difference. We want to make sure if somebody has a lot of histamine symptoms and are struggling, it's also worth a trial of a low histamine diet,

Starting point is 00:19:32 which is interestingly, it's not just fermented foods. There are other foods that we tend to think of as being healthy foods that have high histamine, foods that I happen to love, things like avocados and spinach. Some people respond dramatically to a low histamine diet. And it's one of those dietary approaches that you really have to partner with a good dietitian because this is a complicated approach. Histamines accumulate when foods sit as leftovers. So even foods that have been in the refrigerator for three days might have more histamine buildup than not. And anytime you're thinking about cutting foods out, you need to make sure that you're putting enough things in that you feel nourished and satisfied and you're meeting all your needs for critical nutrients. So this is an important one to partner with a good dietitian. Lowering, emptying that histamine bucket. We know that some probiotic strains can also help reduce histamine.

Starting point is 00:20:30 Some may actually make it worse. So it's also important to get some guidance about which probiotic might be the best for you if you're trying to improve your gut function and not cause harm, not cause things to get worse. For example, lactobacillus casei is one of the ones that's been associated with possibly making histamine issues worse. So we need to kind of, and probiotics, you know, markets a dizzying array. People go stare at the supermarket and say, oh my gosh, there's so many, what do I take? You know, there's high quality ones that are specifically designed to only give you the strains that are going to lower

Starting point is 00:21:05 histamine, not increase it. But if you're just taking a random one off the shelf, you may not know. You may be thinking you're doing good and you're doing harm. You mentioned quercetin. I think that's a great nutraceutical that's a natural histamine down regulator. Resveratrol may also lower histamine. Vitamin C, even food sources of vitamin C like red peppers and broccoli, those can all downregulate histamine. So there's a lot we can do. And you mentioned the gut. The other thing to keep in mind is those histamine-releasing cells, those mast cells, they cluster behind every place that our body has a natural barrier to the outside world. So they predominate under the skin.

Starting point is 00:21:48 They predominate aligning of the respiratory tract and they predominate in the wall of the gut. So we have to keep our skin barrier healthy and resilient. No breaks in the skin and not dry. We want to keep our respiratory tract healthy, not smoking and vaping. That'd be the best way to do it. But air pollution can negatively impact it as well. And then keeping the health of the gut lining really, really in tip-top shape. And that also decreases the burden on those mast cells. Yeah. And I think it's getting everything out, like dealing with people's heavy metals and dealing with any nutritional deficiencies and zinc is common to be low in people. And, you know,

Starting point is 00:22:29 vitamin D is low. And so you basically just kind of stabilize the immune system by helping to optimize all the systems in the body. And the immune system is also influenced by our thoughts and feelings, right? There's a whole field of psychoneuroimmunology. And we know that your immune system is listening to your thoughts. And so stress can often inflame your emotions, inflame your immune system. And I think that's really underappreciated. And another doorway is through your autonomic nervous system. Can you talk a little bit about that? Yeah, I think that's great, Mark. There was a study a few years ago in people with asthma, and they found that people who started journaling, so a way to kind of get some of their stresses out on paper and manage them,

Starting point is 00:23:15 they had fewer asthma flares and less significant symptoms. Meditation, biofeedback, quieting down that sympathetic arousal, that upregulated nervous system can also quiet the immune system. Acupuncture. Many people find that acupuncture is another way to help kind of quiet everything down and can make a big, big difference. So it's a critically important piece that often gets overlooked. So important. And I think that the bottom line here, Cindy, is that, you know, we don't have to suffer like we thought we did from allergies with, you know, just constant seasonal allergies and struggling and having, you know, difficulty with, you know, just congestion and runny eyes and being a mess. And I can tell you just how shocking it is to me even people with very high levels of allergies

Starting point is 00:24:06 like ig levels that are really high um which is the part of your immune system that fights sort of with the allergic response they can get better that come down and uh you know what's what's really striking is that it's it's um it's really not something you get from your traditional allergist or your traditional doctor. You really have to struggle. And the other thing that is kind of an interesting therapy that was written about in a book called The Epidemic of Absence. Epidemic of Absence or Missing Microbes is the other book. But they're all basically the same idea that we've messed up our gut flora, that we are not exposed to the same things we're exposed to. And we often, our immune systems don't know what to do. So they create autoimmunity or they create

Starting point is 00:24:48 allergy. So autoimmunity is you're overreacting to something inside yourself and allergy is you're overreacting to something outside yourself. And what they found was that there's cultures, like I mentioned earlier, where they don't have these problems, but they also have other issues. They have gut issues such as parasites and worms things. And it turns out that these worms and parasites were keeping our immune system busy. And when those go away, because we've been so hygienic that our immune system is looking for something to do and they get busy doing autoimmunity or allergy. And there's actually some studies looking at worms for the treatment of allergy. And I particularly personally use some of these.

Starting point is 00:25:29 One product is called HDCs, which is a rat tapeworm. And as our friend Sid Baker calls them, little dudes. And it sounds really weird and a little crazy, but there is a lot of scientific data about this and evidence that it could be helpful. And it's very harmless. They don't take up residence in there. And I actually treated a number of patients who've had like IgE levels of a thousand.

Starting point is 00:25:56 Normally it should be like a hundred. And I've seen levels come down to normal and allergies should basically go away. So I don't start with that treatment. It was off of these other things we have to do anyway, first to stabilize and improve the overall health of the patient. But if people get stuck, there's a lot of cool tricks we have in functional medicine. Yeah. No, it's great. I learned it from Sid Baker. It's very impressive. And it's shocking when you see like an IgE level go from a thousand to like a hundred, that's shocking. And you go, okay, well, there's

Starting point is 00:26:27 something there. And it makes sense that there's a biological plausibility to it. It's inexpensive. It's safe. There's, you know, there's evidence that it works. And so sometimes these things are worth trying even though they're not mainstream. Cindy, what other wisdom do you have about people suffering from allergies? Because you're in it with them, right? I'm in it with them. Well, I wish the pinworms and hookworms had served me a little bit better. They did not when I was a kid. Did you try? Oh, you didn't take, but you haven't taken them. I was exposed to them. I grew up playing in the dirt in South Carolina. Yeah. You know, it's interesting. I loved this study. It's a very small proof of concept study that came out last year in Finland.

Starting point is 00:27:09 And we're talking about prevention, right? They in half of the daycares, playgrounds, they created a mimicking of the forest for the kind of things that would grow in the forest for in Finland. And the other was just a regular daycare. And they let the kids just do their normal playing in the playground. And after two months, the kids who were using the playground that mimicked the forest floor, they had a more resilient, diverse skin microbiome and gut microbiome and their inflammatory markers were downregulated. So that to me is yet more evidence that, man, we are healthier when we're outside in the woods and playing in the dirt that I think it had, even, even after the fact, there's a rebound or improvement in our skin and gut microflora. Yeah. It's all about getting the bugs balanced, right? Getting the bugs balanced. Yes, absolutely. Well, it's been such a great

Starting point is 00:28:01 conversation about a very vexing problem for so many millions of people, but have hope by using a functional medicine approach, by getting your gut healthy, by dealing with the root causes, by addressing things like histamine, addressing underlying heavy metal toxins and other factors, you can restabilize your immune system and calm down the allergic responses and maybe even get rid of your allergies. I've seen it in a number of patients and maybe who knows, maybe worms will help you. So I know it sounds crazy, but you definitely look it up. It's, it's a thing we'll put in the show notes. And if you, if you know people suffering from seasonal allergies,

Starting point is 00:28:36 have been struggling, please share this podcast with them. I know they'd love to hear it. Maybe they'll learn something to help them and subscribe wherever you get your podcast, leave a comment. We'd love to hear how you manage your health and allergies. And next week, we'll see you again on another episode of The Doctor's Pharmacy. Hey, everybody. It's Dr. Hyman. Thanks for tuning into The Doctor's Pharmacy. I hope you're loving this podcast. It's one of my favorite things to do and introducing you to all the experts that I know

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The Dr. Hyman Show - Fix Your Allergies By Fixing Your Gut And Changing Your Diet with Dr. Cindy Geyer

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