The Dr. Hyman Show - Four Questions To Free You From Suffering with Byron Katie

Episode Date: July 28, 2021

Four Questions To Free You From Suffering | This episode is brought to you by Primal Kitchen, BiOptimizers, and Cozy Earth Suffering is part of the human condition. We create our own stories and believe them, however painful and untrue they may be. But it doesn’t have to be this way! We can find freedom from emotional, mental, and physical pain when we take the time to be quiet and ask some simple yet life-changing questions. I studied Buddhism for a long time and have always been interested in self-exploration. My guest on today’s episode, Byron Katie, has created a powerful shortcut to the process of unpacking and slowing down the mental processes that cause suffering, and her work has been one of my greatest tools for personal inquisition and growth.  In 1986, at the bottom of a ten-year spiral into depression and self-loathing, Byron Katie woke up one morning in a state of joy. She realized that when she believed her stressful thoughts, she suffered, but that when she questioned them, she didn’t suffer, and that this is true for every human being. Her simple yet powerful process of self-inquiry, which she calls The Work, consists of four questions and the turnaround, which is a way of experiencing the opposite of what you believe.   Byron has been bringing The Work to millions of people for more than thirty years. Her public events, weekend workshops, intensives, and nine-day School for The Work have brought freedom to people all over the world. Her books include the bestselling Loving What Is, I Need Your Love—Is That True?, A Thousand Names for Joy, and A Mind at Home with Itself. You can visit thework.com for more about Byron and to access the resources we talk about in this episode.  This episode is brought to you by Primal Kitchen, BiOptimizers, and Cozy Earth. Right now, Primal Kitchen is offering my community 20% off. Just go to primalkitchen.com and use the code DRHYMAN20 at checkout. BiOptimizers is offering Doctor’s Farmacy listeners 10% off your Magnesium Breakthrough order. Just go to magbreakthrough.com/hyman and use code HYMAN10 to receive this amazing offer. Nice bedding can feel like a big investment, so Cozy Earth makes it super easy to try out their products with a 30-day free trial and 10-year warranty. Plus, right now they are offering 40% off. Just go to cozyearth.com use the code HYMANPODCAST40 at checkout.  Here are more of the details from our interview:  Byron’s instantaneous insight into how to end suffering (9:18) The power of questioning what we’re thinking or believing about any given situation using Byron’s method, The Work (14:00) Why guilt drives addiction and is born of a victim mindset (19:12) Asking the question, “Is it true?” as the gateway to free ourselves of suffering (28:50) How to do The Work (32:17) Creating peace, sanity, and physical healing in our lives by questioning the ego (41:48) Using The Work to address fear of the future (44:09) Sourcing our own happiness by living in the present moment and waking up to our true nature (52:30) Loving where you are frees you of judgement and comparison (1:05:46) How we miss our lives when we live in the past and future (1:16:36) Learn more about The Work of Byron Katie at https://thework.com/.  Learn more about At Home with BK at www.athomewithbk.com and check out Byron Katie’s podcast at http://podcast.thework.com. Access the Judge Your Neighbor Worksheet here.

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Welcome to The Doctor's Pharmacy. I'm Dr. Hyman and that's pharmacy with an F, a place for conversations that matter. And if you've ever suffered about anything, well, this is the podcast for you. It's about why we suffer and how we can be free from suffering, which seems like a crazy idea, but it actually is possible. And today we have an extraordinary guest, one of my favorite humans on the planet, even though I don't know her that well. She is a gift to humanity. She is a woman you might have heard about. Her name is Byron Katie, and she discovered through her own suffering a way out for all of us, believe it or not. And it was a way out that is simple to do. It's sort of obvious when you think about it, but it's not really something that most

of us are very good at. And Byron woke up one day after 10 years of depression and self-loathing and suicidal thoughts and all kinds of horrible experiences and woke up one day filled with joy. And she realized that when she believed her stressful thoughts she suffered and when she questioned them she didn't and and that that was a true story that would be true for everybody who wants to take that on and she's created an incredible process of self-inquiry which i know has helped literally millions of people including many people i know and friends called the work which is very simple. But it consists of basically four questions and what we call a turnaround, which is a

way of experiencing the opposite of what you believe. So it's how do you get out of your stuck beliefs? And she's just worked on this tirelessly for the last 30 years in all kinds of events, workshops, intensives. And she's written some extraordinary books called Loving What Is. And a book which I love the title, which is I Need Love. Is that true? Because we all think we need love and what it really is that about. A Thousand Names for Joy. What a great title. And A Mind at Home with Itself. Because how many of us are not at home in our own bodies and minds and

you can learn more about her work going to thework.com thework.com and with that i'd love to welcome you byron to the doctor's pharmacy podcast hi mark thank you i love being here with you it's a joy i love your podcast out of your your see you you on iTunes, especially being with you right here, right now. Well, it's so important. You know, I think, you know, I, through my own life, have really struggled a lot with challenges that I face, like everybody, whether it's divorce or health issues or challenges at work or relationships. And, you know, when I was younger, I studied Buddhism. And that was my major in college. And when I think about your work, I often think about what the Buddha was trying to do, which was kind of illuminate why we suffer. Like the Four Noble Truths, basically, of the Buddha is, you know, life is suffering. We suffer because we're attached to the story we have in our head about what's happening.

And there is a way out of the suffering. And the fourth truth is it's called the Eightfold Noble Path. Your work is much simpler. That Noble Path, it can take a while, as they say, several lifetimes or something. Mark, I was in a hurry, evidently. I just wanted to cut to the chase. There's something, by some grace, I just saw in a moment before the ego could fill that space. I saw how my world was created and it was like, duh. And, and I began to laugh.

I was literally sleeping on the floor and open my eyes. And again, before the ego could fill the space, there it was. And, and it's nothing that I could fill the space. There it was. And it's nothing that I could tell or teach. I tried, tried my children. I tried the people on the streets. I would just lie on the bed. The end of, you don't have to suffer,

but it was, you know, crazy times, but learn to be quiet very, very quickly and just live it and then out of that quietness people would you know they notice my this radical shift in my life radical shift everywhere my physical my emotional my mental everything was noticeable to my family and people around me. And so they began to ask how. And because I couldn't tell them, I put it in their camp. That's why this work is just inquiry. There's no Byron Katie in it. It's just inquiry. It belongs to everyone or what value is it? And no one has to use it.

It's just something that hangs out there. You know, if you've tried everything else, you might try this or you might start with it. But I certainly encourage people to look into it now because I can see it's shifting people all over the planet. And so it's not just me that says it's powerful. No, clearly it's a powerful tool. We're going to get into the details of how it works, how the work works. But the thing I want to sort of get to first is, you know, how you were just one of us normal humans who was running around life miserable suffering trying to like find happiness uh and struggled in your 40s and before with real

serious issues around self-worth and depression and suicidal thoughts and it was horrible, you know, for more than a decade, just agoraphobic, depressed, just my prayer was death, to die, and as soon as possible. It was painful to breathe, no way out. And so I guess seeing, really believing there was no way out. By some grace, I was shown a way out. And people don't have to, it doesn't have to be that dramatic or painful. Everyone has experienced enough suffering as far as I'm concerned. We've all had enough that would take us to look to ourselves, which is what inquiry is about.

Yeah, and so you were in that state, and then you had this epiphany somehow like some crack opened up in your consciousness yes like you said where ego couldn't rush in and you were able to see everything all at once which is not how it works for most people yeah you know we're sort of incrementalists and we like learn a lesson and uh one of my friends tell me today she's like you kind of like forget you have this forgetfulness when you learn something when you forget it you have to relearn it and I found myself doing that you know and finally like maybe the lessons stick but this method that you call the work you know came out of that insight and the unpacking almost the slowing down of our mental process that causes suffering, and a kind of chiropractic adjustment on our thinking that allows us to be free from that

suffering, which is a crazy idea. And it's not something that most of us ever learned about, which is how do we navigate the sort of jungle of our own minds that take us into dissatisfaction, dis-ease, conflict, worry, future orientation. How do we just drop into this moment that we're in and understand that it is perfect? And how do you do that? The ego, its job is to not be here now. His job is to job.

Be here then I'll see that's my be here then because you are, you know, if you can hear, if you can remember me saying, you are, you're in the past. So I recall being depressed in my bedroom, just locked in there, just paranoid, just crazy. And I recall the pain, okay? So now, to do this work, I would identify what I was thinking and believing in that situation. Yeah. Because in that situation, what I was thinking and believing in that situation. Because in that

situation, what I was thinking and believing was the cause of my suffering. Yes. And no way out. So addiction happens in those states of mind. Yeah. Like, how do I react when I believe the thought? I think I'm moving ahead too. No, you're right on it. I mean, I think the whole idea of our beliefs and our thoughts and our emotions being these things that you can unpack, right? Most of the times we're in this collapsed reality where we have a thought, you know, based on a belief that creates an emotion and it all happens in a nanosecond. And it's almost like what happened for you is that it's a slow down.

So you could see, oh, this thinking may not be true, but I believe it. And it's causing me to have all these horrible feelings and all this suffering and being miserable. And how do I break that cycle where I'm constantly believing the stupid thoughts that I have, making them real and putting a old friend and and she was in a hurry and sloughed me off and and and and my feelings were hurt okay and now I think what did I say what did I do what did she and she this and she that and all of that going on so that what is the cause of my suffering what I was thinking and believing in that situation on standing on the corner when she did not have time for me. So now people can do what I did. They can download on ByronKaty.com. They can download what I call a Judge Your Neighbor worksheet, and there are six questions on that Judge Your Neighbor worksheet.

So because the ego is always in the past or future, and since that situation is up for me now, I look at the Judge Your Neighbor worksheet, knowing that the cause of my suffering, again, is what i was thinking and believing then so there's six questions on the worksheet and i filled them in with what i was thinking and believing then i just answered the questions now i'm going to question what i was thinking and believing because that was the cause of my suffering and then as i question it, there are four questions, and then I invite people to flip them, to try them on, to see what is as true or truer for them in that situation. So the first question is, is it true she doesn't care about me? Yeah. No, clearly not.

Yeah. And so i meditate in it you know the work is just pure it takes stillness it's pure it's purely a meditative process it's it is contemplation and if i can do it anyone can do it so is it true is the first question. Can I really know that it's true? So there's a combination of really two questions there. Is it true? Can I really know that it's true? She doesn't care about me. And then I meditate in that I'm on the street corner with her.

I see her face. I see her expression. I can hear her. Because when I'm believing the thought she doesn't care about me i can't really hear her then but i heard her but the ego doesn't want me to hear it yeah so now i'm i'm there i'm still in it and then the third question how do i react what happens when i believe the thought and then market moves into your field how do i react when i believe the thought and then mark it moves into your field how do i react when i believe that of course this is your view too how do i react when i believe the thought

she doesn't care about me i get really still and i get in touch with my emotional i see where i feel that i feel how powerful was, maybe on a scale from one to three. How much of my body did it take over? I think it's just one place, like in my solar plexus, or maybe only in my shoulders. But then I notice, as I sit and how I react when I believe the thought, it hit my neck. And so I'm really i'm meditating in that and then my chest i see how much of my body is taken over emotionally yes when i sit and how do i react when i believe the thought now all those emotions show up for a reason and it cannot be what she said and did

it can never be that it's what I'm thinking and believing that is the cause of that emotion okay so in that how do I react when I believe the thought i continue with noticing the illusion the ego offers up yeah it shows me the past where we were such good friends and it compares with and what did i say or do and then in the future where she's going to talk to people about me she's going to ruin my reputation she's going to she doesn't care about me and and that i know mind and in its past future all the proof is right here in my head that she is a threat to my just made it all up yeah a threat to my existence. You just made it all up. Yeah, a threat to my existence, meaning identity, that I want people to see me as kind and loving and a good friend, and she's blowing it, and she's going to blow it.

You see that identity, the ego is always protecting. So as I sit and how I react when I believe they thought all of this comes up now this is where addiction comes in when I'm thinking that on her I feel guilty yeah that's Yeah. That's just a given. I don't have to like it. It's a given. And guilt is, it's an amazing thing. It says, look at your thinking. What are you thinking and believing? Something's out of order and it's not her. And I'm not letting her off the hook. I'm just doing my own personal work now. Yeah. Okay. So, I see, she's gonna tell people and

they're gonna this and they're gonna and and she's this and she's that just my judgments about her I'm going to experience, I'm going to notice them guilt. Now guilt is the food. It is the food for addiction. It's where addiction is born. And so then I see like the chocolate ice cream. I mean, my ego is going far as it can and then boom, chocolate ice cream, I see it in my mind's eye. And then if you, you know, if I say the word apple, immediately, you see an apple in your mind's eye.

It's like I'm casting a spell on you. Yeah. Like banana. You saw it. I just cast words, cast spells. Yes. So, I see that. Now, chocolate ice cream.

I said I'd never do it again. I said I was only going to have it once. I said it. No. Now, if you imagine biting into a big, juicy lemon, right lemon right now, you feel the physical effects? Yeah. Physical. You did not eat a lemon. That's the power of mind.

Yes. The power of what we call ego. So that's addiction if I see the lemon and it causes that thing in me literally it's so powerful it could raise blood sugar mm-hmm I could do a lot of things so you know that's why pills are so popular for stress. So I notice the cause of my suffering on every level, body, mind, spirit. Okay, so how do I react when I believe the thought? I see that I went into victim mode as I was standing there. It was not too much, but just a little. Yeah.

Okay. Guilt. Why does the guilt come from being a victim? It argues with our true nature. And the proof of that is anything we think that is not understanding, kind, connected, is a word I love, connected with the human race and everyone in it, connected. It doesn't mean I'm going to hang out with that person. It doesn't mean we're going to have tea. It's just I'm connected.

I understand. I understand. I understand. If I were thinking and believing what that person was thinking and believing that murdered another person, how could I not? How could I not? So this is not a little thing that we're inviting people to. It is, you know, that identity from I can't even leave my bedroom into a person that loves people. I mean, that travels the world for more than 30 years. That's not a little thing. No. So what you're saying almost, myron is that in your

mind, you made up a story or a narrative about what this person's actions meant, but I can't claim I made up my mind. I can't claim I did it. Me I didn't do it on purpose. It's the ego at work. I didn't do it on purpose.'s the ego at work i didn't do it on purpose so your higher self when you say i you mean your higher self didn't do it well it's it's like find a place where you believe you said or did something that was that you felt a little guilty over, you know, like a place where you, a little guilt, okay, you find that place where you said what you said, or you did what you did that caused a little guilt, something that you had hoped you wish you hadn't done. Okay, so you said what you said you did what you did and you felt guilt now get really

still and identified what you would identify what you were thinking and believing just before you said what you said or did what you did and then tell me did you have a choice? In that moment to feel what you're feeling? I think it's automatic, right? We have automatic conditioning and patterning and beliefs that are sort of embedded in us. But what you're asking people to do is slow that down and start to look at the truth of it. And in this case, you're talking about your friend. Did I have a choice? I mean, in that moment, you may not have the choice

to kind of not have that emotion, but then you can kind of look at it and stop, which is what your work is about. It's about, okay, I had this experience. Now what? And with this particular friend- Yes, so if I were thinking and believing, I've tested this many times.

It's a way of life for me. When I consider what I'm thinking and believing, I can even justify the thing I said and did. And so why do I feel guilty about it? You know, even a little. And it's not right or wrong. We're just looking at how we react when we believe a thought. Yeah, well, that's a huge thing. And I think a lot of the times we have beliefs that create the thoughts that lead us to interpret something as bad or in a way that causes us suffering. So you interpret your friend's behavior as somebody who was didn't care about you was interested in

you maybe had negative thoughts about you but you don't really know what was going on with that person they could have been late to go visit their mother in the hospital who was dying or they could have you know been stressed about blah blah and you you take that on as your own thing and so i think we you know i had a friend once who said to me, stop looking for ways to be offended. You know, a great line. I love that. Or my mother used to say to me, you know, when you're driving the car and someone honks, what makes you think that's for you?

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I know you're going to love these sheets as much as I do. Now let's get back to this week's episode of The Doctor's Pharmacy. That is a very powerful concept in your work that I think is worth unpacking because most of us are so attached to our thinking and our thoughts and our beliefs that we don't have a space between those thoughts and beliefs and our interpretation of those. And we think of them as reality, right? And that's why your question, is it true, is so important. Is it true? Yes. That's the first question, right?

Is it really true that she hates you or doesn't care about you or that she's going to go say bad stuff about you? Yeah. Right? And I think that's really a powerful insight. It is. It brings us back to some sanity. Just the question, is it true the other four questions the other three questions and turnarounds aren't even aren't even necessary if a person just said and is it through is it true all of it would meet that

question if a person got really still is it true you'd be shown how you react when you believe the thought, what you said, what you did, how it felt. And the answer would reveal itself. And yes or no, when a person, when I ask myself, is it true? She doesn't care about me. For example, I get still in that. And to find there's only one syllable to answer the question, is it true? It's either yes or no. And they're both equal. Because let's put it here with me. I'm only looking for my authentic answer. And so that may take a while. But I can't answer what other people, how the world would answer it. Like the whole world could say, she doesn't care about you, but I'm dealing with me. I've got to know she doesn't care about me. Is it true? And then, you know, it's a beautiful thing, Mark, because when these things are worked through,

I can just, it's nothing to pick up the phone and say you know as we were standing on the corner and and um you know i had the thought that that um you didn't care about me um do you and was i missing something and that's not exactly a great situation. But anyway, we're free. We can do our work and call and test it. And if she says, I didn't care about you and tells me why, then there is something I can do about me that I was blind to that she opens me up to. So people grow me in the world. But we're too fearful to even call and ask. We just assume and then we feel bad, we feel guilty. And then we maybe eat the ice cream or take the drug or the pill or snap at someone that we love completely. and then we're guilty over that it's a so your work really is is focusing on this simple idea that that suffering like our own emotional mental spiritual suffering really is inside of our minds and is not real and it's a story we tell ourselves that we torture

ourselves with and that there is a way to be free of those thoughts that make us suffer. And that's really what your work is about. Yeah, waking up to what is real and what is not. What's in the illusion. How do you get people there? I mean, the four questions and the turnaround is really the simple process, right? And it seems so simple, but it really is very powerful and maybe you can take us through that what those four questions are again and what the turnaround

is and how people can use this process to really get free okay so the first question is is it true so she doesn't care about me okay is it true can I absolutely know that it's true and I'm going to meditate in that and I'm going to be there in that time and place anchored there and then how do I react in that situation when I believe the thought she doesn't care about me I I get really still. My eyes are closed. I'm meditating in that situation. I can see my body language. I see clearly my attitude.

I'm in touch with the emotional I felt. I'm not just pretending it didn't happen. I'm present here now, seeing now what I saw then that I couldn't see then. I'm present. Then the fourth question in that situation, standing on the corner with her, fourth question, who would I be without the thought she doesn't care about me? So to test that, I'm going to get still, drop my story, and listen to her words. In other words, I'm not going to put meaning on it. I'm dropping my story. Listen to her words, see her expression,

her body language. So I'm seeing her without my story, okay? So, who would I be without the thought? Learning a lot, learning a lot, Mark. About yourself. I'm connected. I'm connected. And it's never too late because the next time I see her, I'm connected. I'm not seeing who I believed her to be

in the original situation. I'm seeing her as, from an awakened mind, from a more awake mind, the compassion's there and I'm not trying, it's I'm connected. In that case, self compassion compassion unless I said or did something good okay so then the last part of the work is to to flip it to turn it around

and so she doesn't care about me turned around she does care about me now I'm not going to just believe that I'm meditating in the situation she doesn't care about me now what you said earlier may show up for me I may see that she was in a hurry that she said something to tip me off that she needed who knows what's gonna show up but I'm not gonna make nice it. I'm going to be there now. I'm going to be then now. And she does care about me. Let's see, she does care about me. She did stop to talk to me.

I mean, I'm going to see a lot as I witnessed that in the silence from here. And then another turnaround, she doesn't care about me another turnaround i don't care about her no way in that situation where was i uncaring and so yourself and this work takes so much courage mark where was i uncaring? What did I say or do? Did I give her the look? Did I look like bother? Did I anything? Okay, now let's say I said something rude. It just came out of my mouth, which happens as a believer. She doesn't care about me, for example. Okay, so. So now, the next time I see her, I might call her and I might say, you know, we met on the corner, it looked to me like you were in a hurry. And I'm sorry if I held you up. And, you know, I, I was a bit rude. And, and I'm sorry

for that. And, and you get to clean things up if you made a mess. And, and I'm sorry for that. And, and you get to clean things up. If you made a mess, I do. And then I get to make it right. I don't do it with the next person. Maybe I'm a little more patient with the next person. And so these turnarounds, we're not trading one belief for another. We're meditating in the possibility of. The purpose of the turnaround is to kind of like look at other ways of looking at the same situation from a different perspective and trying it on and seeing if it's true or not true, how it feels. Yes.

And you're not necessarily saying it is true, but you're saying, you know, I don't care about me, but maybe that's true. And then you can start to look at well, you know, I don't, I don't care about her. And then I, I sit in that and see, see, as I said earlier, anything that I I said or did that would lead anyone to believe that I didn't care about them. And then there's another turnaround on, I don't care about me.

And in she doesn't care about me, turned around, I don't care about me. So where is it that I was disrespectful of myself, that I didn't give it time, that I interrupted her. I was in a hurry. I was the one that pulled away. She didn't. And it shifts every relationship we've got because our identity is shifting

every time we sit in inquiry. You know, you talked about the Buddha's Four Noble Truths. That fourth one, I mean, the third one, there is a way out of suffering, right? Yeah. There's a way out of suffering. But he didn't, it's like years of buddhism for for some people yeah and some get it right away you know but here's how inquiry is how and so um and and And what was the fourth noble truth, I guess? You know, the end of suffering.

And for me, anything I say or do that I experience as in you or in me, you know, could use a little work. Because the people in my world world if i don't respect them and feel connected to my world and my planet the gifts of nature each other then i have to look to myself because until i do there's not a lot of peace and when we're not at peace we hurt other people and then the cycle just continues we feel guilty over that and we can justify it the work the ego is so good at that so the work is really a way to get free from self-destructive beliefs and thoughts that cause suffering and allow you to have a different way to navigate your relationships your work your

experience that's sort of liberating right i mean I mean, it seems like it seems so simple, but it's so powerful. And I think that, you know, we often spend years in therapy and years, you know, working on ourselves. And, and this seems like a shortcut that short circuits a lot of it is common ways we think about change. Yeah, it has everything to do with health. Because when we like ourselves, oh boy, are the decisions we make in life different. Yeah. Oh my God. Sanity is a great gift and we can no one can make me sane i'm i'm

the only one i'm the only one that could give me that and it's a it's it's a practice it's a practice and stillness and it takes a lot of courage as I said earlier. And but the end result is what the end result is, then in result, I'm 78 years old, and I'm healthier than I was, I have less pain than when I was a teenager. I don't know how long it's gonna last mark. But the choices I make make sense and no one taught me you know what I eat my exercise there's no voice in my head that says I'll do it later you know well I'll double up tomorrow or on I'll on I I'll eat it and I'll make, you know. There's no ego in my head that would argue with right doing. Where did it go? Where did the ego go?

The ego, through inquiry, the ego sees that I'm I don't oppose it to question that gives it fair play so the ego says she doesn't care about me and it's meant with is it true so it gives the ego a chance to just, where do I go from here? What do I go from here? And you're just meditating, is it true? And then let's say wisdom, true nature, or innate, like just sanity, let's say, just use that word, meets the question, is it true? And the ego in this process begins to rest in that, that I call the heart, sanity, compassion, understanding, right mindedness. And so there's, there is not all this pain in this 78 year old body that I experienced in my early 40s. And then living in a bedroom with with, with

everything to live for. Children, a beautiful home. What you're saying essentially is that, you know, through this practice, you've been able to access a healing force in your body that is not just mental, but actually physical. It's just waiting for an invitation. It doesn't move. Mark, it never moves. It's not going away, this wisdom, this love, it's not going away. So is it is really the work and access point to love? Is that what you're saying?

Yes. And and love is, is, is, you know, we, we each have our own definition of what that means. But for me, it's, for me, it's balance in all things. So one of the things I want to ask you is, you know, a lot of us, and I've been going through this lately, because with COVID, everything kind of blew up. My normal work life blew up. How I see patients blew up. My own time structures all changed changed and also went through, you know, a period of, of changing my personal life through a divorce. And, you know, I'm okay from it, but it sort of left me with a very uncertain future. Where do I live? Who will I be with? Or will I be with someone?

What am I going to focus on in my work? And so the future takes on this looming presence of uncertainty and potentially fear. And I found myself feeling a little bit anxious about what now. And I've been really working with this process that you're talking about and sort of re-examining my beliefs and my thoughts about the fear of the future and where that's coming from and how to let go of that and actually shifted to a level of trust and, and, and a level of, of curiosity and comfort and the possibilities that are ahead without having to know anything. So, so how do we, how do we get to that?

I mean, I've been working on it, but I don't know if I'm quite there, but I I'd love to hear your perspective on how we not allow the future to affect our present. For me, it would be to fill in that worksheet, you know, answer the six questions there. Like, if I fear something in the future, which can only be in the future, fear is what we're thinking about a future and guilt and shame is the story of a past running through us. But fear of the future, I would look at what I'm fearing, Mark, and I would fill in, I would answer those six questions on the Judge a Neighbor worksheet, and then I'd question them. And what would I question?

The situation that I fear. Like put yourself in that situation you fear and identify what you're thinking and believing as you're experiencing that fear, put that on the worksheet and question it. It will blow your beautiful mind. But the Judge Your Neighbor worksheet seemed to be about somebody else, right? Or can you just be about your own thoughts about your own life and future

without reference to somebody else? What's an example of a fear? That I won't really find a place that I want to live in where it feels right to me. I'm sort of just being sort of nomadic and not really find my home and community. Okay, so I won't find a place I want to live. I won't find my community. So for example, I would imagine myself, to fill in the worksheet, answer those six questions, I would imagine myself in a place I don't want to live.

And then I won't find my community. I would imagine myself in a community I don't want to live with. Yeah. And I would question everything I'm thinking and believing about that until I'm at home, wherever I am, and with people in this world without exception, that I feel I feel connected with, which for me is community. Yeah, my world, the world as you understand it to be. Brian Smith Yeah. So this worksheet, if people can just

go Google judge your neighbor worksheet, and you can find it and it's really simple, very simple, almost like throwing the blanks in this situation. Who angers, confuses, hurts, saddens, or disappoints you and why. And it gives you an example of how to do it. It's very simple. It's very practical. And for people who are struggling with relationships or their work or beliefs or themselves or their relationship with themselves or their health, I mean, it's really a simple process that I encourage you to do and it's free yeah it's free and all the

instructions are there there's a a thing um posted there and it's i call it the one two three so you fill in the that you answer the six questions on the worksheet, and then you take, like, number one and what you responded to number one, and for example, and then you move just that one concept over to the one belief at a time worksheet, which that's one, two, three, that's number two. And just answer the questions there. It's pure inquiry. It's the four questions and turnarounds literally that's all and um and so then to do that is to sit in the practice of the work and there is there is uh one believe at a time worksheet which is essentially a written meditation so look at your beliefs and how you react and how do you change it and turn

it around yeah right and who would you be without that thought right that's a beautiful one like who would you be without that thought that i'm not loved that i'm not good or i'm not good enough whatever the thoughts we have about ourselves it's it's a it's really it's like my life minus that just yeah you know the cause of our suffering is what we're thinking and believing in any It's like my life minus that. Yeah. There is no – the cause of our suffering is what we're thinking and believing in any given situation. And that's not something – that just sounds too simple to believe. I'll just throw this out there because here we are. All fear is either remembered or anticipated.

It never happens in the moment. Yeah. Life is remembered or anticipated. That's all. Remembered or anticipated. Is it an experience in the moment? All physical pain is either remembered or anticipated. What if someone's stepping on your foot?

That's happening in the moment? What if someone is? Stepping on your foot. Okay. Someone steps on my foot. I am remembering. Okay, right now he stepped on my foot. I'm remembering it, even though his foot is still on my foot.

And I'm anticipating that I would feel less pain if his foot was off of it. Anticipating. When you sit in it, you can see the images. And his foot is still on my foot. And our time together is showing me that you you can do this, you have the gift of, of stillness and presence, you've got some Buddhist practice in you, it's just, oh, and then I work with people at this at home with Byron Katie three days a week. I work with someone every, every, every one of those who everyone can sit in this practice.

And it and it is a practice. And it's so simple, people find it difficult. But know mark sound it's either remembered or anticipated you've you you you've heard life as an illusion and you said in that practice it's not a theory it's and so So this practice breaks down in real time and solves. It gives us, it's like on the, on number, oh my gosh. Let's say, you know, I prefer your questions. I could, you know, I could- Yeah, yeah, yeah. I wanna ask you, I want to ask you about something about something you said, which is that, that we all have a key to our own happiness, but we didn't look to ourselves for that happiness, whatever we want, whatever we think another person needs to do, maybe we need to do. And it's sort of, we always are looking outside of ourselves to blame what's

happening around us for our happiness or suffering, whether, you know, and I think we externalize happiness, but we also externalize suffering. And I think what you're seeing is that neither of them are external. They're coming from within us. It's almost like Dorothy in The Wizard of Oz. She always had that power to go home with three clicks of her roomie red slippers. Yeah. But she didn't know that. And you're saying, hey, you're reminding us that this is true. So how is this true?

And how do we get to this ability to sort of source our own happiness and freedom from inside rather than looking outside of ourselves? Okay. and freedom from inside rather than looking outside of ourselves. Okay, so as I'm talking to you, Steven, my husband, is in the kitchen. I love him, by the way. I read a lot of his translations of ancient texts, Buddhism, Taoism, he's like an icon. Because I majored in Asian studies,

so I was always really tuned into his work he's he's an he's an amazing being to live with oh my gosh we've been married like i think oh gosh more than 20 years or something so he's in the kitchen i'm telling you where's my proof here i'm in a room, the door is shut. I'm imagining him in the kitchen. So I tell you with all certainty, oh yes, Steven, he's in the kitchen. Okay, he could be out in the yard. He could have gone to the store. So here, to answer your question, it would be, it would be, you know, where's Stephen?

I can say he's in the kitchen, but I'm awake too. Is it true? My only proof is I see an image in my head of the kitchen. I see an image of Stephen in that kitchen. And if you say, is Stephen in the kitchen? I can say, yeah, and believe it. Because my mind's not open to, is it true? And this is not a huge big deal except we do it with everything yeah he's in the kitchen here's another thing let's say in the morning

like let's say we had a terrible argument i can imagine step arguing, but this terrible argument last night. So this morning, let me tell you, Mark, he came in this morning and he said, good morning, honey, like nothing happened. And I gave him the look. He knows. I give him the look and I don't answer him and he knows why. And he should be sorry okay i'm punishing the wrong man the man in my head that is not stephen that's pure imagination yeah so i am under the spell you know know, it's words cast spells. I'm under the, I see, but I'm awake to the illusion. He comes in, he says, good morning, honey. And I say, good morning, honey, because I know what

man I'm dealing with. Why would I punish my husband for out of my pure imagination and then argue that I'm right. See how crazy that is? It is crazy, but we do it all the time. And then how do I react when I believe the thought? You know, he owes me. He needs to make this right. And when he doesn't, you know, this guy I'm married to to he's not what I thought he was that's crazy yeah so I when I'm this work has allowed me to love the one I'm with in other words to be connected and to listen and to be sane and to love my mind is to love the world. Yeah, you know, once a friend said to me, you can either be right or in relationship.

And, you know, I think your work really teaches us how we all have this addiction to being right so how does the the work that you do shift us and our need to be right well you know just um i'm i can't be right when other people have their right there are a lot of rights in the world as we see it. So how can I argue with another person's right if it comes up against mine as a contradiction? We all, we're believers. This is earth school. We're believers. We're to to wake up to our true nature and every time we do the work we come we come out as kinder more understanding human beings and i don't call it the work for nothing yeah it's it takes a lot of courage to very open mind but we don't have to wait until

we're suffering anyone can have a better life i mean that's the gift that you're giving people it's just the understanding that a lot of our suffering comes from our own minds that it's based on our beliefs our interpretation of reality that often what we think is true isn't true, and that there's a way to flip it around in our minds so that we actually can be in the right relationship to what's happening and actually get back to our state of love and happiness and connectedness. And it's such a gift, Byron. You know, I think Eckhart Tolle said that he read your book and he said, this is a great blessing for our planet and your work is a great blessing.

It acts like a razor sharp sword that cuts through the illusions and enables you to know yourself for the timeless, for yourself, the timeless essence of your being. And he, he says, your book, loving what is, is really the key to knowing your natural state, which is joy, peace, and love. And I experienced that from you. I mean, that's when I see you and I talked to you, it's like, I get this big hit of joy, peace, and love, which is what we're all seeking. And yet, you know, you're offering people as a doorway into that natural state.

How do we unravel all the things that keep us away from our natural state and get back into it? Identify what we're thinking and believing and write it down, move it from our head to paper. That way, what we're thinking, when we write it down, it's stable, it's stopped. Because if I say, is it true in my head, my ego could win out. So I just get what I'm thinking and believing about you, about the world, about life, and move it from my head to paper, and it stopped right there on that judge your neighbor worksheet. And now I can question it.

I can anchor in the situation as I was believing it to be and question it. And maybe it's true, maybe it's not. But then when I get to how do I react when i believe the thought i get to see the cause of my suffering yeah and then when i turn it around it makes more sense and it's um it's um it sticks yeah and you've helped so many people challenging emotions and beliefs and and it works pretty quickly what are the kind of um things you've seen happen to people is there any short stories you can share about people who've been able to get out of the sort of the suffering state they're in or

the challenging situations using the work you know that's an odd question um You work with people all the time. And you see this every day. All the time, all the time, all the time. I mean, I'm this is through my email through my just incredible testimonials just, you know, sometimes we don't even there are things that we want to publish, we don't even publish because it's not believable. I can say just radical turnarounds. And it's not that...

You know what matters to me is kinder mothers and fathers, more understanding, more understanding in the workplace. Kinder you know, out of a question mind, the stuff we see on the internet around winning and losing, you know, just just and then we meet someone that's patient and coming out, you know, speaking from an authentic place. We trust that. It doesn't create great headlines, but it shows us a piece of ourself that we already know. It's like a home place.

And this work, you know, when we question it and turn around, it literally shows us how to live. Like people should be kind. You know, that's like on the Judge a Neighbor worksheet on question three. In that situation, he should be kind to me. He should be kinder to me. Is it true? And how do I react in that situation with him when I believe the thought he should be kinder to me? Is it true? And how do I react in that situation with him when I believe the

thought he should be kinder to me, and he's not? Then I witness what I say, what I do, how I am, my body language, my expression. And then who would I be without the thought he should be kinder to me? I begin to listen. And more often than not, in fact, for me, it begins to make sense. I understand. Whereas I couldn't then as a believer. But then who would I be without it? And then when I turn around, he should be kinder to me.

In that situation, I should be kinder to him. And so I live that turnaround in my mind's eye these living turnarounds on the worksheet will just shift life like so I close my eyes I should be kinder to him so I live that out in my in my mind's eye and then I should be kinder to me so as I meditate in that situation I live that turnaround I should be kinder to me in that situation and I notice I'm quiet I notice I don't interrupt him and I was very interruptive I noticed living turnaround I'm not interrupting. This is not a little, this is not a little thing. Because it breaks the cycle of dynamic relationships.

And then I find myself being kinder to other people because I live the turnaround meditatively, as I said in my work in that Judge Your Neighbor worksheet. It's so powerful because I think what you're offering people is a way to look at their beliefs, look at their ideas, and slow everything down and question your own thoughts and beliefs and your interpretations of reality that cause suffering in ways that most of us never learn how to do. I mean, we think what we think is true, that it's a fixed reality, and that what we interpret as reality with somebody else or something else in the world is just absolutely true. And it's that illusion that causes the suffering. I mean, that's really what the Buddha talks about. Your work is sort of a modern spin on Buddhist thinking,

which allows us to get access to things a lot faster than having to be meditating nine years in a cave, which I'm not ready to do, but maybe a week, nine years. I don't know. That's not your idea of moving to a, that's not the neighborhood you're looking for. No, definitely not. The trick is to love where you are. And it's,

it's very freeing our choices. Yeah, I mean, this whole idea that we are so entrapped in our minds that they are the source of our joy, but they're also the source of our suffering is a super empowering message because it all of a sudden, it takes the power out of the world to affect you. Instead of you being at the effect of everything that's happening in your life, you're sourcing your own joy and happiness and you're at the cause of your life. And you're designing your own experience and interpretation. And I remember when I was really young, I was picked on so much.

I was a nerdy kid, you know, read a lot of books. You know, the nerds went out in the end. So I guess that's okay. And I, you know, I just was, I was out backpacking out West and I had a group of people I'd met, was camping with them in the woods. And I was like 18

years old and kind of goofy and i think these guys are making fun of me and i just was it was just so unbearable and i had this momentary epiphany which has stuck with me my whole life which is that you know either like what they're saying to me is their own movie. It's their own interpretation of reality. And it may or may not be true. And I don't have to take it on. Or maybe there's something really juicy in there for me, a nugget of wisdom and a reflection that even though it's in a package that feels crappy, may be something useful for me to look at it myself. So all of a sudden, I went from being like, really torn apart and just suffering so badly from all the sort of hostility that was coming at me through picking on me and making fun of me and whatever, that I was able to feel really empowered to go like, well, that's

their story. And I don't have to take it on. And or there's something juicy in there for me to learn. And that really has stuck with me since I'm 18. And it's really changed my life because all of a sudden I'm not afraid of people's feedback or criticism or anything. Because I'm like, oh, this is, you know, this is just their movie. Or, yeah, this is something good. Oh, Mark. That's stunning. And it was really freeing.

That is stunning. I just happened. I wasn't planning it. That's it. And I had this other moment which was similar to what you had when you were maybe a little different. I had a really close friend and he's a just an adventure and lover of life and spontaneous and just sort of dances to the beat of his own drummer and you know you just will be there but the next minute he's gone and doing something and you don't know where he went we were camping out one night and this field and uh i woke up in the morning and he was just gone and he didn't say

anything he didn't even note i mean there was no cell phones back then, so he couldn't text me, but he just disappeared. And all of a sudden I felt all the suffering come up like, oh, he's off doing something fun. And my life isn't as valuable. And what I'm going to do is not good. And he's just having the best time. And I'm just stuck here by myself. And I just want to do this whole thing. And then again, I had this like epiphany where I was like wait a minute you know everything that's happening in my life is equally as valuable and juicy and good and and it's the perfect thing for me to be experiencing right now and I just don't have to worry about ever comparing myself to anybody else in my life around what they're doing

and it's better than what I'm doing and you know you know, I just, it was a real breakthrough for me. I was like, I think I was 20 years old. That is just such a gift. That's like, that is some kind of grace. Because like you said, you didn't plan to know that or think that. It is, it is great. Yeah, and it's really helped me to be free, more free. And I still get in suffering in many other ways. But in those areas where I think people often get stuck, which is comparing themselves to everybody else or feeling the effect of people's judgments or criticisms or comments.

Like those are really big things. And for me, I felt kind of a relief about that. I mean, I have other issues I struggle with. But I think, you know, your work is really about helping people get to be good in themselves. And, you know, we all deserve those epiphanies, and the work give those to us. And it, it's, it's, it's, it's an invitation, you know, we can have them on purpose, and not have to wait for these, these, these moments of grace. I think to sit in inquiry is a state of grace

where the ego's not talking us out of just sitting in ourselves and a few moments, a few minutes a day. You're asking people to do what's really quite extraordinary, quite simple, and so powerful, and yet most of us don't have a roadmap of how to get there. And that's why the simple tools that you share on your website, the work.com, or the incredible tools you have, the Judge Your Neighbor worksheet, the One Belief at a Time worksheet, that are free People can go get them. They're amazing. And if people are listening and they want to know more about this work, Byron has an incredible weekly process multiple days a week

where she works with people in real time, and you get to participate, watch, see, and learn as you're experiencing that. And you can just go to athomewithbk.com. That's athomewithbk.com and and it's happening every week so while you're at home and maybe you're still isolated from covid or whatever it's it's really worth getting a flavor of what the work is because we're talking a little bit in abstract but when you get with working with people you get to see actually how this unfolds and you get to have the insights about your own life also Also, Byron Katie has an incredible

podcast called the Byron Katie podcast. So you can find that wherever you get your podcast, you can learn more about it at podcast.thework.com. And I'm just so, I'm just so happy that you were born, happy that you had your suffering and figured out a way out of suffering and have been teaching that to millions of people for decades. it's just so critical and you know honestly i thought you were like 60. i didn't couldn't even tell you were 78 and i'm like you're just so vibrant alive and clear i'm like wow i want some of that whatever she's having i'm going it is, you've got a lot of it. Oh, boy, Mark. I'm so glad you're in the world. Oh, you're the difference you make. You're just out there. I just love it. So

so much. Thank you. Well, I feel the same about you. You're out there in more ways than one. Your mind is so beautifully open. Oh, thank you. Well, your work has really helped me personally, and I know it's helped my friends and family, and it's such a gift. And I encourage everybody who's suffering, which is pretty much every human out there except a couple of enlightened monks maybe in the cave in Tibet. But pretty much everybody else definitely needs to get this work in. And definitely check out Byron Katie's books. They're just beautiful meditations on life and happiness and joy and how we get free from suffering. And at the end of the

day, I think, you know, the purpose of life that I figured out, and I'm 60, going to be 62, finally, I think I figured out it's about freedom. It's, it's really freedom, mental freedom, spiritual freedom, emotional freedom, physical freedom, which is all under our control. I mean, you know, and you, you think, oh, well, people are in horrible situations and how do you do that? And yeah, people are, people are in tough situations, but you know, I just remember reading Viktor Frankl's book, Man's Search for Meaning, where he talked about his experience in Auschwitz in a concentration camp. And he realized that the only thing that the guards and the Nazis couldn't take from him was his mind. And he refused to be imprisoned, even though he was in prison. And it's just such a beautiful story about reminding us that no matter where we are, what we're in, it's really our own interpretation and beliefs and

our thoughts and our minds that determine our state of being. And it also reminds me of when I was 26, I went to Nepal on a medical expedition and I met this guy who was a Tibetan doctor. He was very interested in Tibetan medicine. I went to hang out with him and get a translator. And this guy spent 22 years. He sort of escaped from Tibet after 22 years in a Chinese gulag where he was tortured almost every day. Oh, my goodness. And I said to him, I said to him, what was the most difficult part about all of that? And what he said shocked me and humbled me and kind of blew me away. He said, the hardest part were the moments where I felt like I might

lose compassion for my Chinese jailers. I'm like, wow, okay. I'm far from that. But, you know, that just, you know, if that's true, if a human being can achieve that state, whether it's the Viktor Frankl in a concentration camp or a Tibetan doctor in the Chinese Gulag, all of us can become free. As you were telling that of the torture and the hardest part for him, that question. I projected you were going

to say, it would be like they're torturing me and my mind might think, I hope they don't do this to them. I hope they don't continue doing this to them. Because when your mind is free, it's not about you anymore. It's about the apparent perpetrator. And he's doing that to him, meaning he's stuck in that state of mind that he would go against himself, whether he's aware of it or not. We can't shift our nature and our nature is you know we have word for it loving caring compassionate but what the ego would think and what we're thinking and believing would confuse us about that

yeah so um I know a man said he was going to kill me at one point and um it was late at night, maybe 2 a.m. in the morning, I don't recall, but the moon was out in the clouds. It was beautiful and evidently I was in his space and in the dark, it was in the desert by the river and frightened him, but he said he was going to kill me. And my thought was, I hope he doesn't do that to him. And he actually had a gun and pulled the hammer back and, and, and I could see the moon and the

sky and the fear in his eyes and the compassion and heard the river and the beautiful desert. I mean, who would want to miss the last few moments of their life? And that's what we do when we're in the past and future. We miss our life. We miss our life. Oh, wow.

That, what you just said is the perfect, the perfect summary of everything, which is we miss our lives because we're living in the past or the future where the suffering exists and we're missing the magic and beauty of the moment, which is always ready for us. And that is like, whoa, that is so good.

That is so good. That is so good. Well, thank you. Who and what we are. Thank you so much, Byron, for being on The Doctor's Pharmacy. This has been the best conversation. And everybody's got to check out your work. Please go find out more about Byron Katie.

Download the Judge Your Neighbor worksheet. Download the One Blue Good Time worksheet. Make sure you check out her work, which you can view every week and be part of. And you can even be the one she's working with at home with BK.com and check out her podcast and all her books. She's just a national, I don't know, national, maybe a global treasure. So, Katie, thank you so much for being you. I hope I get to see you in person sometime soon. Mark, let's do that.

I love you dearly and your work in the world oh boy thank you my friend so much fun thank you and and um if you've been listening to this podcast and you know anybody who's suffering well make them take a listen to it but shouldn't be about seven and a half billion people uh and uh subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and share how you've worked through your own beliefs and thoughts and maybe use the work to help you get free. And we'd love to hear that. And subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and we'll see you next week on The Doctor's Pharmacy.

Hey everybody, it's Dr. Hyman. Thanks for tuning into The Doctor's Pharmacy. I hope you're loving this podcast. It's one of my favorite things to do and introducing you to all the experts that I know and I love and that I've learned so much from. And I want to tell you about something else I'm doing, which is called Mark's Picks.

It's my weekly newsletter. And in it, I share my favorite stuff from foods to supplements to gadgets to tools to enhance your health. It's all the cool stuff that I use and that my team uses to optimize and enhance our health. And I'd love you to sign up for the weekly newsletter. I'll only send it to you once a week on Fridays.

Nothing else, I promise. And all you do is go to drhyman.com forward slash PICS to sign up. That's drhyman.com forward slash PICS, P-I-C-K-S, and sign up for the newsletter and I'll share with you my favorite stuff that I use to enhance my health and get healthier and better and live younger, longer. Hi, everyone. I hope you enjoyed this week's episode. Just a reminder that this podcast is for educational purposes only. This podcast is not a substitute for professional care by a doctor or other qualified medical professional. This podcast Thank you. ifm.org and search their find a practitioner database. It's important that you have someone in your corner who's trained, who's a licensed healthcare practitioner, and can help you make

changes, especially when it comes to your health.