The Dr. Hyman Show - From 31 Flavors of Ice Cream to a 31-Day Food Revolution with Ocean Robbins

Episode Date: March 6, 2019

As my friend Ocean Robbins says, “When you eat the Standard American Diet you get the standard American diseases.” In fact, poor diet is responsible for almost 700,000 deaths in the US each year, and 11 million worldwide! And the average American consumes 55 pounds of added sugar each year, which we know is a major contributor towards the diabesity epidemic. The good news is that each step towards real, wholesome, delicious foods reduces your risk for chronic disease and increases your ability to feel great. This week on The Doctor’s Farmacy, I sit down with Ocean to talk about the current state of our food system and what we can do to be part of the revolution to create a healthier and happier future for everyone. Ocean is the author of 31-Day Food Revolution: Heal Your Body, Feel Great, & Transform Your World. He serves as CEO and co-founder of the Food Revolution Network—one of the largest communities of healthy eating advocates on the planet, with more than 500,000 members.

Welcome to the Doctor's Pharmacy. I'm Dr. Mark Hyman, and that's Pharmacy, F-A-R-M-A-C-Y, a place for conversations that matter. And today's conversation, I think you'll find, matters a lot because it's about food, my favorite topic. And we're here with Ocean Robbins, who's an extraordinary man I've known for a long time now, known his father even longer. He's the author of the 31- Day Food Revolution, Heal Your Body, Feel Great, and Transform Your World. I like the transform your world part. He's the CEO and co-founder of a half a million plus member food revolution network. And I've been privileged to be part of that network and be on some of his food revolution summits. He's one of the largest

communities of healthy eating advocates on the planet. And he has extraordinary people who come and are part of that. People who I look up to, who I've learned from. It's really an awesome, awesome service that you and your father do to bring this to the world. He's done hundreds of live seminars and events. He's touched millions of people in 190 countries. Wow, that's impressive. His grandfather, now this is interesting. You're going to like this.

His grandfather founded, co-founded Baskin-Robbins. Now, I don't know if I ever told you this, Ocean, but my first job was at Baskin-Robbins. 31 flavors. Barack Obama's also, by the way. Oh, really? Yeah. Really? Is that why? He went on to do some other stuff, just like you. He did a few other things. I managed to accomplish a few things. But, you know, is the book called 31 Days Because of 31 Flavors? Is that on purpose? You know, I'm saying, my grandpa said, you know, there should be a flavor of ice cream for every day of the month. Oh, yes. You know, at the time there was vanilla, chocolate, and strawberry.

And he broadened the palette quite a bit. And, you know, I'm saying that 31 Steps to Health can bring you more satisfaction even than 31 flavors of ice cream. There you go. I don't know. Rocky Road. Hard to beat that. So his father, John Robbins, who was heir to this enormous fortune, walked away and said, no, I don't want to do this. I want to change our food system.

He wrote a book called Diet for New America, which was one of the first books I read in this space. And it totally changed my way of thinking about food, about planetary health, about the environment, how it's all connected. I mean, it was really powerful. And I think, you know, you have carried on that work in a way that's a powerful mission that's transforming our industrialized food system into one that celebrates life, that celebrates people, that celebrates a healthy planet. He's had many awards. I love the sort of compassionate work you do. The Youth for Environmental Sanity, or YES, which you started at 16 years old. A little overachiever there. And he's running for 20 years. He's an adjunct professor at Chapman University. He's received many awards for public service. And I'm just thrilled to have

you here on The Doctor's Pharmacy. Oh, I'm thrilled to be here with you and get to talk about one of my favorite topics as well, which is food. So, you know, you really made your whole life about this topic. You and your father and the work that you've done has just brought so much awareness around the issues that we're all facing about what to eat, about how it intersects with our health, how it intersects with planetary health, how it affects communities, how it links to social injustice issues. I mean, you guys really are pioneers in this space. And I personally learned a lot from this. And I'd love if you can sort of,

you know, share a little bit about your experience as the grandson of a guy who basically used factory farming to produce dairy products that, you know, weren't exactly the healthiest thing in the world. And how that is sort of informed what you're doing today. There are 31 chapters in 31 Day Food Revolution. Each ends with action steps you can take and not one of them is to eat more ice cream. No?

Not even coconut ice cream? But, you know... Actually, I make really good ice cream. What I do, I'm just going to tell you, I make, I tell it trick you.

I'm going to go make ice cream and I'll be back in five minutes. And I take a blender like a Vitamix. I throw in frozen berries. I throw in a can of full fat coconut milk and cream and I blend it up and like a Vitamix. I throw in frozen berries. I throw in a can of full fat coconut milk and cream. And I blend it up and throw a little vanilla in there.

And people think I put in like these special little glasses. It looks fancy. And people think it's ice cream. Yeah, soft serve style. I know. We do similar. I use bananas. Bananas, there you go.

Yeah, it's fabulous. So, you know, I think that, you know, my grandpa founded the company, obviously. My dad, John, was groomed from early childhood to join in running it. He was sweeping the floors in the factory at the age of six. And he had an ice cream cone-shaped swimming pool to swim in in the backyard. But when he was in his early 20s, he was offered that chance. And he said no. And he walked away from a path that was practically paved with gold and ice cream to, as we jokingly say.

To my favorite thing. Yeah, right. To follow his own rocky road. And, you know, at the time, his uncle, Bert Baskin, my grandpa's brother-in-law and business partner, was dying of heart disease. He'd already had two heart attacks and ended up taking his life at the age of 54. And everyone in the family was rather large. They ate a lot of the family products. And my dad said- You don't mean tall, you mean wide.

No, I mean wide. I mean that, yeah, he had a lot of excess pounds. And the reality is if you eat the standard American diet, you're going to get the standard American diseases and die the standard American death eventually. And my dad was taking a look at his uncle and the situation. And he said, I don't want to spend my life selling a product that it's going to contribute to more people like my cousins losing their parents too soon. And so he walked away. He moved with my mom to a little island off the coast of Canada. They built this one room log cabin and grew most of their own food. Yeah. Vancouver Island, Salt Spring Island, actually. Oh, wow. And they practiced yoga and meditation for several hours a day, and they named their kid Ocean. That's me, right?

They almost named me Kale. Oh, boy. I'm telling you, I'm really glad for the sake of my social life that they took the conservative route when they named their son. Back then, nobody knew what kale was. It was a garnish. Yeah, exactly. But we did eat a lot of kale and cabbage and, you know, broccoli and onions and carrots and other veggies from the garden.

And then when I got a little older, my dad researched his book, Diet for New America, the first one that came out in 1987. And, you know, he really used his background in the food industry to expose the food industry and to show it was really going on, where our food was really coming from and what it really meant to the world. And the media had a lot of fun with his story. They called him the rebel without a cone. He inspired a lot of people, including, you know,

one of his readers ended up being my grandpa. And that's kind of an amazing part of the story. My grandpa was on death's door at the age of 71 with serious heart problems, type 2 diabetes, weight issues. And his doctors told him he didn't have long to live unless he made changes. And then his cardiologist gives him a copy of Diet for New America, the book by his renegade son, which my grandpa... But he knew it was his son. He knew, he knew, and he read the book. Not the one my dad had given him that was autographed, but the one the doctor gave him. Yes, of course.

Because it was blessed by the high priest of Western medicine. Yeah. And he made changes. So he cut way down on his animal product consumption. He gave up sugar completely. He gave up ice cream. And he ate a lot more whole plant foods and vegetables. And he got results.

Like tremendous results. He got off all of his diabetes and blood pressure medications because he didn't need them anymore lost a bunch of weight his golf game improved seven strokes that's really focused on the priorities here yeah and he was a happy camper he lived another 19 more healthy years after that and so you know we've seen in our family what happens when we go with the status quo and we've seen what happens when we make a change, and you have too. And the results are so extraordinary. And that's part of what, you know, inspires me. Honestly, more so than my grandpa's business achievements, which are extraordinary,

are the fact that he had the courage to make a change. That's impressive. And when his life was on the line, he was willing to shift his thinking and his lifestyle dramatically and reap the benefits. And he was one stubborn cookie. So I tell you, if my grandpa could change his diet and give up ice cream, then I think there's hope for the rest of us too.

Yeah, it's pretty impressive. It's pretty impressive. Yeah. It's like Ray Kroc giving up Big Macs. Oh, yeah. So I read in your book a stat that I've heard before, but it just really struck me again. You know,

we talked about the opioid epidemic, which is horrible, you know, kills 70,000 people a year. We talked about, you know, the deaths from all sorts of things, war and terrorism and smoking. And what you shared was that the food we eat is responsible for killing almost 700,000 people a year in America and 11 million people a year around the world. I mean, imagine if there was a war that did that or a terrorist group that did that or there was some drug or something that was causing this problem. We'd be all over it. It would be like a national emergency. It would be, you know, we'd create martial law to fix the problem. Yeah. And yet... Essentially, our burgers and fries are weapons of mass destruction. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. The 678,000 Americans a year are dying from disease caused by our diets. It's more than died in World Wars I, II, both Iraq Wars, Afghanistan, Korean War, Vietnam War combined. Everything.

Yeah, but all in one year, every year. And the enemy isn't another country. It's our own knives and forks and what we're doing with them. We're kind of digging our own graves with our knives and forks. And that can be depressing, but I actually think it's really good news because what it means is that all this suffering and misery and disease that we see around us is not inevitable. It's actually completely reversible. And, you know, we have not even scratched the surface of what's possible for human health when we optimize. I mean, there's researchers at Rush University in Chicago studied 950 people ages 81 and up over the course of quite some time. And they looked at their diet and lifestyle and all kinds of factors. They ended up concluding that the people who ate the most

vegetables added 11 more years of healthy brain function to their lives. 11 years. That's good to me. My grandma died of Alzheimer's. And at the end of her life, she couldn't even remember my name. And I think what I would have done to give her 11 more years, you know, to know her great grandkids, to get to see all the things I'm doing now. I wish she could see. I wish we could share it, but we can't because she's gone. And so many people who are suffering right now.

And what would 11 years do for us? And vegetables is just scratching the surface. You add blueberries, that's good for another couple years of healthy brain function. Keep going and layering on the good foods and saying no to the bad foods. I think that we're capable of so much more vitality, wellness, joy, and longevity than most of us can even imagine. So you've taken a look at the landscape of our food system. You've taken a look at the impact on health, on climate, on the environment,

on social justice issues. I mean, you've really dug in. And you and your father have created this Food Revolution Network. So what is your vision of what is a food revolution? And why do we need one? And how do we come out the other side of it? Well, we live in a society where we have a toxic food culture where it's considered normal to eat food that's laced with antibiotics, hormones, 55 pounds of added sugar a year, processed calories. I actually have in my cupboard in my kitchen, I have a bottle of antibiotics, I have some pesticides, I have some red dye number 40, I sprinkle it on my salad. It's awesome. So essentially, effectively, that's what we do, right? We're not intentional.

I mean, nobody's like, let's eat more of this stuff. Right, exactly. But it's the air we breathe. It's the sea we swim in. And so you actually have to go upstream. And, you know, when I say food revolution, I'm trying to make a point that what we need isn't food that's a little bit less bad. I'm not just calling for McDonald's to use less oil on their French fries, although that might be a step considering the type of oil they're using. But I'm saying we need a fundamental reinvention of how we produce food and how we process it and how we consume it. And when we step into a food revolution, we can radically transform our health outcomes and we can make a huge difference on the planet. You know, I directed a nonprofit for 20 years and I worked with leaders in over 65 countries. And as I traveled the globe, I saw that everybody eats and that what we're eating has this huge impact. And I saw that all over the globe, I saw that everybody eats and that what we're eating has this huge impact. And I saw that

all over the world, the U.S. is exporting a way of producing food with agrochemicals, pesticides, GMOs, et cetera. We are exporting a way of marketing food with KFC, McDonald's, Baskin-Robbins, spreading around the globe. And with that- Yeah, most developing countries, they're considered aspirational- They want to be more like us. Yeah. And they're a sign of, you know, wealth. Right. Exactly. And so, waistlines are expanding and hospitals are filling up and people are getting sick

with diseases that were unheard of a generation or two ago. And we know where that leads because we spend 19% of our gross domestic product on disease symptom management. We call it healthcare, but really it's disease treatment. And that's increasing. And that's increasing. And that's increasing and it's bankrupting us. In the long run, we can't afford this trajectory. And it's not just us, but around the world, more and more countries are following us. So, you know, in my own journey, after 20 years working globally with young leaders, I decided I didn't want to focus on food directly. And that's when I launched Food

Revolution Network with my dad in 2012. And, you know, we are standing for healthy, ethical, and sustainable food for all, which is kind of a big mission. But, you know, what... Go big or go home. Yeah, right. I mean, the stakes are so high right now. And I'm sick and tired.

I've seen so many people feeling sick and tired. I'm fed up with a toxic food system. And I think a lot of people are. And so we're hungry for change and we're making it happen. And that, that lights me up every day. And it's true. Your book, The 31 Day Food Revolution, which I encourage everybody to get a copy of. That's 31dayfoodrevolution.com. You can learn more about it. Is in a way a manifesto for a new food system that is fun, that's delicious, that celebrates life, that celebrates love and community, that celebrates the planet and the earth we live on. I mean, these are really important ideas that are not your typical diet book.

This is not just a diet book, because who needs another one of those? I've written enough. I don't need another diet book because who needs another one of those? I've written enough. I don't need another diet book. And it's a way of thinking about how to change in a very practical way the things we're doing to enhance our own well-being, to enhance the well-being of our communities, to enhance the well-being of the environment and climate and everything that really matters to us. And what inspired you to sort of sit down and actually put this all together? Because you've been doing this work for a long time. You have lots of products you've created around the Food Revolution Network, but this is sort of a unique baby for you. Yeah. You know, I've been working

online with online summits and emails and so forth. I know a lot of people who want to spend less time on their computer and more time reading books. And I decided a book would be a nice way to reach folks. But there are really two things that make 31 Day Food Revolution kind of unique, I think. And one is the focus on action. Every single chapter ends with action steps you can take. Because at the end of the day, cancer, diabetes, heart disease, they don't care a heck of a lot how much you know, how many podcasts you listen to, how many books you read, but they do care what you eat and how you live. And I want to help people get results. And the other thing that's unique is that it bridges the personal, the interpersonal, and the systemic. Because at the end of the day, food is super intimate. I

mean, what you eat literally becomes you. But it's also very political. I mean, it interacts with systems and institutions all over the world. So what you put on your fork is actually a political act. It is. It's a vote. You're voting for the health you want and you're voting for the world you want. And I want to help people make that vote conscious because there are so many problems in the world that can feel overwhelming and unconfrontable from war and famine and climate change and all these issues. And what I'm saying is that with your food choices, you actually have the capacity to make a real impact. They say you

can make a difference. I say, uh-uh. When it comes to food, you do make a difference. Every bite you take, every dollar you spend. And the question is, what is the difference you're going to make? And how conscious can you be in that choice? And I want to put the power in your hands where it belongs. It's true. I think one of the most challenging parts of our world today is this overwhelming sense of disempowerment in terms of controlling our own lives, our own destiny, what's happening on a global scale. It just feels overwhelming. And we just throw up our hands.

People don't even vote in this country. I mean, think about many countries that never could vote. All of a sudden, everybody can vote. And like 100% of the people go out and vote. Here we're lucky if we get 30% of the people voting who can vote. Right. And this is a call to action around understanding the linkages between the choices you make and everything that happens within you, around you, around the planet.

And it's just a beautiful way of looking and breaking it all down. I want to dig into something. I think it's just really important. And I think it's challenging for a lot of people out there, which is this whole polarization in the food movement. Yeah. And, and you and your father have just done this beautiful job of creating this middle way that's sensible, that it's inclusive, that doesn't create these divisions between all these different philosophies and approaches, whether it's vegan or paleo or, you know, whatever the sort of extremes are. And I feel like that's a really important thing I'd love you to address because you're in the middle of it all. And you were saying before, you know, you're getting angry

emails from some followers who think, why are you not eating this way or that way? Can you address how we sort of bridge that? You know, we live in an increasingly polarized world, whether it's politics or religion or sometimes even race. And certainly diet falls into it as well, where so many of us have a particular worldview or ideology and we think it's right, which is good. You should think that what you believe is right. But I think that when we think that everyone else is wrong, if they don't see it the way we do, we lose some of the three-dimensional richness of humanity. Because what's right for you and what's right for me may not always be the same thing.

And in fact, depending on your health history, your metabolism, your ecosystem, your ethics, your life stage, where you live, what season it is, the optimal diet may change, right? And so I'm interested in helping each person to attune to their own best interests, their own inner wisdom. You're the only you on the planet. Just because 500 studies say that most people most of the time do better with a certain food in their diet doesn't mean that you do, right? And so I want to help each person to become the author of their own food choices, informed by the data, informed by epidemiological studies, informed by what we know, but also listening to what we know that only we can know about our own life journey and experience. When it comes to food, I think we know a lot that's really clear. I mean,

there have been over 10,000 studies published in peer-reviewed journals, which tell us pretty consistent information about the foods we need to eat more of and less of. There are some points of disagreement, understandably, possibly because the answer isn't the same for everybody. And also the research is confusing. Yeah, it can be. But on the broad swaths, we know that we need to eat less sugar and processed junk. We need to eat less animal products broadly, especially from factory farms. We need to eat more whole plant foods, especially vegetables. And that sourcing matters. In other words, organic, local, fair trade. These things matter at least in their environmental impact,

if not their impact on human health. So those are the basic principles of what I call the food revolution diet plan. And we just make those kinds of changes. We can uplift the health of, you know, hundreds of millions of human beings. And then within that, of course, we can discuss, you know, what's the optimal amount of animal products in the diet is it zero, 5%, 10%? Is it more? What the optimal amount of macronutrients, fat, carbohydrates, protein? You know, there are different studies and different perspectives. And it depends on you, like you said. It does. It does. You know, and I mean, we hear, obviously, some people say eat lots of protein.

And we have studies from like Dr. Valter Longo telling us that, you know, high protein diet could be more dangerous than smoking cigarettes. But partly it depends where the protein is coming from. And I don't think you can just look at macronutrients outside of the cofactors and all the vitamins and minerals and everything else. So chemicals. Exactly. But the big picture is really clear. And we can look at the blue zones for guidance, I think, which Dan Buettner studied for National Geographic. You know, these are the places where people have lived the longest, healthiest lives. There are elders, you know, in terms of healthy eating. And they're, you know, in Italy and Greece and Costa Rica and Loma Linda, California, and of course, Okinawa, Japan. And

when we look at these regions, you know, we see they have certain things in common and certain things very different, right? But they all move and have lots of exercise in their lives. They all have some form of spiritual practice or stress reduction built into their lives. They have strong community ties. And they eat a predominantly plant-based diet. They get between 0% and 10% of calories from animal products. In the U.S., we're at 34%. And they eat real food, not processed junk.

And they eat very little sugar, whereas we're getting 55 pounds a year added sugars for the average American. And I think it's more like 150. Well, it depends if you count added or total sugar calories. So actual added, I think, is 55. But obviously, we have other forms, too. And by the way, most people who listen to me know this, but starch and sugar are pretty much interchangeable. You know, if you eat a bagel or a bowl of sugar below your neck, your body can't tell

the difference. Yeah, right. It goes in so fast. Yeah. So I think that the blue zones are a good guide for us. And, you know, some people may argue until the cows come home, literally, about whether, you know, the optimal is zero or one or 10 or whatever percent calories from animal products. I have a very spacious attitude around that personally, because I want to point in that direction. And how far you go in that direction is dependent on a lot of different factors. And I think we tend to obsess over details and lose the big picture. Yes, 100%. I mean, that's sort of why I jokingly came up with the idea of a vegan diet, which was making fun of the extremes and said, look, 90% of what you guys talk about is the same.

Whole foods, get rid of processed foods, plant-rich diet, eat good fats, have lots of nuts and seeds. If you're going to eat animals, don't eat animals that have been grown in ways that are harmful for them, harmful for us, and harmful for the planet. I mean, it's just basic common sense. You know, I think epidemiology and nutrition research is tough because everybody can kind of pick what studies they want. Sure. And I once went to a lecture by one of the most renowned scientists in the world, Bruce Ames.

I heard of the Ames test, which is a chemistry test that detects carcinogenic compounds in the environment or food. And he said, you know, epidemiology is funny. If you study Miami, you'd find that everybody's born Hispanic and dies Jewish. Because it's a correlation. It doesn't prove cause and effect. And so we have challenges with the same. I mean, one study I saw, you know, meat eaters were much more likely to die. But you also look at their characteristics. Those were periods of time when the people who ate meat were not following the guidelines which were to eat less meat.

And so they didn't really care about the health. They smoked more. They drank more. They were more overweight. They didn't eat fruits and vegetables. They ate more processed food. Other studies were you look at meat eaters and vegetarians who shop at health food stores, meaning they're probably eating meat in the context of a healthy diet.

They have the same risk reduction in death. So I think we kind of have to get away from polarization. We have to understand that we really have to work together to create a better food system, to understand the basic principles of sustainability for our health, for our communities and our planet. So that's what the 31-day food revolution really does. I think it really addresses that. I want to dig into some of these controversial issues.

One of them is GMOs, because there's just so much polarization. You listen to the government. That's fine. There's no problem with GMOs. You listen to, obviously, industry. They're like, this is going to save the world. We can't live without it. You listen to extremists on the other side.

They say, this is going to kill you. We're all going to die. It's going to be GMOs. In Europe, they really restricted GMOs and banned them in many cases. In this country, it's a free-for-all. You don't want labeling. I mean, it goes so far as the Washington, you probably heard about this, where the grocery manufacturers of America

got together with the big food companies, which they represent, and said, let's do a campaign to subvert the GMO labeling, which they wanted to do in Washington. Well, they did. And they were founded to be inclusion, did it illegally, which is violating the campaign's finance laws. They were fined $17 million, I think. Yeah, it's pretty much closed down the GMA. I mean, it's falling apart now.

Yeah, right, right. And so, which is actually a good thing because these food companies go, wait a minute, I don't want to be part of that. Yeah, it was the largest campaign finance violation in US history. Yeah. And so, this is a big issue when they're fighting just to prevent us from being even aware of, don't you want to know what's in your food? You can't say GMO or not. So what's your view on GMOs? Are they that bad? Are people overstating the case? Yeah. Well, first of all, what's a GMO? Some people think it means God move over. It doesn't. It's genetically modified modified organism. God, move over.

The, you know, Monsanto, now Bayer, Syngenta, Dow, DuPont, the big agrochemical companies behind this technology promised the world that it would bring us bigger yields, more drought-resistant crops, better nutrition, better flavor, and lower pesticide consumption. But 25 years plus into the mass cultivation of GMO crops, we haven't got any of that. The studies show a union of concerned scientists ran a study. They found that it hadn't brought bigger yields. We know that it hasn't saved water. It hasn't brought us any improvement in flavor or nutrition.

And it's actually brought a net increase of about 200 million pounds a year of added pesticides. So what are we getting from GMO crops? So the promise has failed. The promise has failed. What we are getting is crops that have one or both of two traits. Number one, they're pesticide producers. They produce the insecticide BT in every cell of the plant. And now BT is generally considered safe for humans. It's been used in organic agriculture for a long time, but that's sprayed on the outside. Now it's in every cell of the plant. And certain bugs, they take a bite, their stomach splits open and they die.

And we're eating that now and you can't wash it off, right? And then the other trait is that they are herbicide tolerant. So they can be sprayed with glyphosate, which is the active ingredient in Roundup, or with 2,4-D, which is one of the active ingredients in Agent Orange. And these are weed killers, and they'll kill the weeds, but not the crop. So now we're eating essentially crops that have been sprayed with weed killer. Now, what is the impact of consuming glyphosate, for example, on human health? Well, we don't exactly know, but we do know it's a probable carcinogen. We know that it's an endocrine. This is not your opinion. No, this is the World Health Organization.

It's an endocrine disruptor. We know that it's been patented as an antibiotic, so it can kill bacteria. Yeah, it screws up your microbiome. Right, right. So we're now eating large amounts of this stuff. It's a place to go to file, which is what you need to detoxify things. Yeah, yeah. So what is the impact?

Well, we know that since GMOs have been in mass cultivation and since we've been consuming more and more glyphosate, food allergy rates have been skyrocketing. Hospitalizations for kids in the last generation have tripled for food allergies. This isn't just some overprotective mom freaking out because her kid gets a bruise. Hospitalizations here we're talking about.

So it seems that we are in a time when more and more people are having digestive problems. And it could be that there is a connection between the BT and the glyphosate that we're consuming and those problems. Now, correlation isn't causation. There are a lot of other things that have happened that have made our food supply more contaminated during those same years. But when you see a correlation this strong, I think it's worth considering the possibility. It's everywhere. Like if you look at your Cheerios, people feed their kids as a healthy breakfast. It's full of glyphosate.

Yeah, absolutely. And there's, yeah, there've been studies showing just that. So I just, you know, I'm always sort of biohacking myself and trying to figure out what's going on. And I recently just tested a whole series of environmental chemicals. See, you know, I'm somebody who's pretty conscious, filter my water, have an air purifier, eat organic most of the time. And I travel, so I'm not always perfect. And I try to do a good job of eating real food and not processed food.

I don't eat packaged food. I mean, I just really do a good job. And I got my glyphosate level back and I was like, whoa. And it was, it wasn't like at the 90th percentile, but it was like at the 40th percentile, meaning it was, it was still up there even though I am super aware and conscious. What if you're eating, you know, packaged food that's full of GMO corn? I mean, one of the greatest things in Michael Pollan's Underwater Dilemma was when he basically like, you know, looked at his, where the carbon comes from, from the corn, which is this hybridized GMO corn. And we all have this carbon from corn in our bodies. It's more than our, you know, other sources of carbon, which is pretty interesting.

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. And so if you want to avoid GMOs, then the top thing to do is to go organic because organic foods by definition are non-GMO. Number two, you can go with certified non-GMO products, which has gone from nothing to a $25 billion sales industry in the US in the last seven years. And number three, you can look at where the major crops are. So they're corn, soy, canola, sugar beets, cotton, which is used in cotton seed oil, and then alfalfa. Most of us don't eat a lot of alfalfa. But if you choose to- Don't forget wheat. Well, wheat isn't-

Because wheat isn't a GMO food, but they spray it with glyphosate to exfoliate it just before harvest. That's right. Which probably is even worse because it just gets on the plant right at the level of harvest, which then stays on the plant right at the level of harvest, which then stays on the plant. So if you've noticed an uptick in gluten sensitivity, it is entirely possible that that's actually commercially grown wheat that's causing that issue, and that the glyphosate is a big factor in that.

It's used as a desiccant. Some with oats and barley too, by the way, but most of all with wheat. So that's another reason if you're going to eat wheat, go organic, because that also is going to avoid the glyphosate. And then, so yeah, but corn, soy, canola, cotton, and sugar beets are, which is half the sugar supply of sugar beets in the US, are typically genetically engineered. So those are crops to watch out for along with the wheat, as you're mentioning, and go organic and those that can make

a big difference so so do we know for sure there's harm we're just sort of like is it better to just be have a precaution around it because i don't i don't think we know for sure yeah i don't think we know for sure we do know pretty for sure that glyphosate isn't good for us yeah and that it's widespread and gmo crops are glyphosate sponges, functionally, right? But it's not the only source of glyphosate exposure. I think that pesticides in general are problematic. We know that farm workers are dying in droves of cancer, that life expectancy for farm workers in California is 49 years, according to one study. It's the most dangerous occupation. Yeah, that's right. Super high rates of Parkinson's.

And, you know, they're out there in the field spraying these pesticides, and they're kind of like the canary in the coal mine. Yes. It doesn't take a coal miner to realize that if it's killing farm workers, it's probably not that good for the rest of us to eat that stuff either. So I always say, you know, if you're choosing between an organic donut and non-organic kale, go for the kale. Right. You know, there's a lot of studies telling us that we should be eating more vegetables and whether or not you can afford organic, you can put that them to use and eat those vegetables. And if you can afford it, organically grown foods are probably safer for consumers and they're definitely safer for farm workers and the planet.

I think that's a good principle. You know, when you think about things like trans fats that were in the food supply since 1911, when somebody figured out how to make Crisco, it took a hundred years for us to get it out of the food supply and it's still in the food supply and it was found later to be very dangerous and kill hundreds of thousands of people a year. And then it was everywhere in our food. Margarine, I grew up on that. You probably did Fleischmann's margarine.

Maybe you didn't because your dad was on an island in Vancouver. I don't think I did. It was so prevalent and now the FDA says it's not safe to eat. Well, we have this habit in this country of, you know, put something in the system and then find out later if it's a problem. It should be the other way around. We should apply the precautionary principle, which is if there's a suggestion this may not be good, let's prove that it's safe. Let's check it out. I think so. I mean, there are 1,400 chemicals in the U.S. food supply.

Flavorings, colorings, additives, preservatives, emulsifiers. I thought it was 3,000. Well, it might be. Maybe 1,400 that are widely used. Oh, they're widely used. And most of these have never been tested for their long-term health effects on human beings. Or their synergy. Or their interactions.

That's right. Exactly. And, you know, their interactions. That's right. Exactly. And you know, mother nature is pretty darn smart. And what we keep learning is that every single life form comes with all kinds of microorganisms that interact with each other, cofactors, and together they create a symphony. You know, if you go out and play your trumpet, you'll have one sound. But if you play an orchestra, you have another sound. And I tend to think trumpets sound better in orchestras than solo. And that's true with most of these things. So when you extract a chemical, you may be able to patent it, but that doesn't

mean just because you can make money off of patenting it, that it's an improvement over what mother nature came up with. Well, it's frightening when you actually look at the effects of these things. I think the FDA has been pretty lousy at dealing with this. The European Union has been much better at getting rid of toxic chemicals in our products, in our food, the GMOs. They're much more cautious about what they do. And I had Dr. Alessio Fasano, who's a professor at Harvard, who's a spec expert in gluten. And we were talking about the difference when people eat wheat in this country, they get sick when they go to Italy or they go to Europe. They don't.

And I've seen this over the years in my practice. I'm like, how is this happening? And I think that maybe some of the things you're talking about, that the quality is different. He says they ferment it longer. I don't know. But it's pretty interesting.

Now, one of the things that people might be thinking as they're listening to this is, oh, wait, wait a minute. You know, organic, non-GMO. Like, I can't afford that. Right, sure. I mean, this is elitist. It's expensive. I can barely pay the bills. I'm on food stamps. What do you say to those people? Because you do address this in your book. I do. By the way, this is an awesome book and everybody should get it. But it's really

an important issue to address about how do you deal with this if you are on a budget? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, one of the things I'm grateful for in my own life is, you know, after my dad walked away from Baskin Robbins, my family was monetarily poor. So I was born in a one room log cabin to parents who were living on less than a thousand dollars a year. Didn't have 31 rooms. You had one room. No, one room. Yeah. And it was very cold. It was a log cabin with some holes in the walls in Canada. Yeah. It was, it was an interesting way to start, but I'm really grateful for it because, you know, we watched every dollar, every penny when I was growing up and we ate healthy. You know,

we learned that you can grow a lot and we based our diet around the staples and we didn't go out to eat at restaurants. And I learned that it's possible to really thrive and eat wonderful food on very little money. And it breaks my heart right now that statistically in the United States, the poorer you are and the browner your skin, the more likely you are to base your diet around processed foods and factory-farmed animal products. And the more likely you are to suffer and die from heart disease and cancer and type 2 diabetes and Alzheimer's and all the other lifestyle-induced illnesses of our times. And I think that it is a travesty that we have children growing up in America right now who are obese in their childhood,

who don't have the nutrients they need to think clearly. We send them to school, a taxpayer expense, and then we expect them to learn, but they don't have the basic nutrition to be able to learn properly. And they think it's their fault that they feel like crap and that they're overweight and they don't have energy. Right. So they're given Ritalin and they're blamed and they're warehoused. And I think that we can do a lot better as a society and we're failing our kids and we're failing our poor. I mean, there was one kid in our class when I was growing up that might have had a special needs. Now there's like half the class. Right, right. But the reality is that it does sometimes feel like it can take

your whole paycheck just to eat whole foods. And we have a system in which, you know, essentially the poor are condemned to nutritional disasters. And in 31 Day Food Revolution, I explain how this came to be, what you can do if you are on a budget, if you want to live simply and save money and also eat well. And I also explain how we can change the systems to make it easier for everybody to eat, right? So for the individual, let's suppose you're somebody who... So we do need policy changes. We need policy changes. Because the real cost of what we're eating is not embedded in the price. The real cost of the food, the processed food, doesn't include the damage to our health and

the consequences for taxpayers around paying Medicare and Medicaid. It doesn't account for the damaging environment and the climate and all those sort of externalities that are not included. So what is a can of Coke? Should cost probably $100, right? Could be, yeah. A factory farmed animal should probably cost $100 a pound, right? Yeah, it probably should.

And there's also the fact that it's actually, we're subsidizing it, taxpayer expense, the commodities crops, which eventually means we're bringing down the price of high fructose corn syrup and factory farmed meat. And Twinkies has 14 subsidized ingredients. You might know this, but people probably listening don't, that when Nixon was trying to get reelected, the price of meat and dairy were going up. So he changed 40 years of agricultural policy to incentivize the production of these processed foods. In other words, the corn and the soy that these animals ate

to actually reduce the prices so he could get elected, which led to this glut of incentivization of these commodity crops, which is what we have now. Right. Yeah, absolutely. So, we need policy change. And let's suppose you're an individual. You're like, I can't change the whole government and how the heck do I feed my family, right? So the most expensive calories you will ever eat are the ones that kill you, you know, make you sick. I mean, last time I checked, cancer was pretty expensive. You know, Alzheimer's was pretty darn costly.

Feeling like crap is pretty expensive too, right? The next most expensive calories are the ones you waste. The average American family wastes $2,000 a year in food that literally goes bad in the fridge. So, one of the keys is to have shopping lists, plan ahead, cooking quantity on the weekends, clear out your cupboards, clear out your fridge. Excuse the soups, right? Because you can tell me. Yeah. I'm a big fan of cooking big soups and, you know, freezing containers in the freezer and, you know, sharing with neighbors and cooking in quantity and saving up because most of us don't have tons of time on our hands during the week and we get busy. So,

it's nice to plan ahead. And you can also avoid impulse purchases. A lot of people, half their shopping is impulse purchases and it's usually the least half healthy half. So, if you can plan ahead and really decide on what you want to get, then that can help a lot. And then when you feed your body right and are nourishing your body well, you actually may find that you crave calories less. Because many of us are calorie gluttonous, but we're actually nutrient starved. We're actually not getting some of the critical nutrients we need. And so we're constantly hungry. And when you really base your diet around whole natural foods, you can get rid of some of the

cravings. The average American is eating 500 calories too much per day, maybe even more. And you end up saving money that way too. And then I also am interested in the real superfoods. We talk about Himalayan goji berries for 30 bucks a pound, and we think that's a superfood. But really, real superfoods are super because they can do the most good for the most people. You know, cabbage doesn't cost that much. You know, carrots, onions, mushrooms are a superfood. And last night I made a delicious vegetable dish with red cabbage, which was pretty cheap.

Sliced apples, a few raisins, lemon, salt, pepper, cooked it on the stove. I mean, it was just delicious. And I don't know, probably cost me $3 or $2 for that. It's a beautiful dish. Yeah. And I think legumes are a superfood. They're sometimes called the poor man's meat. But actually, I don't think we should penalize them. Beans, yeah. We shouldn't penalize them just because they're affordable. You know, the reality is they provide about a third of the world's protein for human beings. And they are vastly more efficient from a resource standpoint,

ecological standpoint than meat is. And they're more affordable, you know, and I know there's controversy in the paleo world about them or whatever. But my view is when I look at the studies, generally for most people, legumes, which are mostly beans are associated with a lot of positive health benefits and they're pretty darn affordable. Minerals, vitamins. Yeah, it's great. You know, what's interesting is that I think people are challenged because they don't know how to do something. So I can go open my fridge and it looks like there's nothing there. And you came over this morning for breakfast and I made you a breakfast out of whatever was left in the fridge that I hadn't put together and I haven't been shopping. Delicious breakfast, by the way.

Yeah. And it's really about sort of learning a set of skills. That's what's so great about your 31 Day Food Revolution book is that you provide actionable steps of how to actually do this stuff. People need to learn the basic life skills of cooking and shopping and eating. And if you don't know that, it's overwhelming. But I think you're really right about this whole poverty thing and the injustice around food because it's not that it costs too much.

It's not a lack of happening. It's not a lack of this being able to happen if people know what to do. It's just a lack of knowledge. And as part of the movie Fed Up, I went into this home and this family's, which was in a trailer, they were in a food stamp disability. They were massively obese. They were trying to do all the right things, following the government's guidelines of low fat and this and that. And they just didn't know what to do. And I showed them how to cook one meal. I showed them how to chop an onion. I mean, they didn't know how to peel garlic. They didn't know how to take olive oil and vinegar and stick it on the salad.

They need bottled dressing, which is mostly refined soybean oil and high fructose corn syrup. Yeah. And they were like, oh my God, this is fun. It's easy. I showed them we can do it together as a family. And I'm like, I don't know what's going to happen. You know, like I go for a day, I leave, you know, some rich doctor from the North comes

up to the South and this worst food desert in America and tries to change things. I'm like, who am I? But I said, OK, let's try it. And they literally started cooking. And they lost hundreds of pounds. The son, Brady, lost 138 pounds and asked me for a recommendation for medical school. So I wrote him a letter for medical school. That's the power of understanding, even on food stamps and disability,

in one of the worst food deserts in America, this family could actually do this. And I was like, wow, if that's possible, then we're only one meal away from changing everything. It's true. And you know, for anybody listening right now who's thinking, oh my gosh, you know, where do I start? I just want to say, however, however far you are from your ideal around food, that's how much benefit you can get from making a change. However bad things are, that's how much better they can be. And, you know, some people, the food revolution, the next step is, you know, getting the right kind of heirloom kale at the farmer's market. And for other people, you know, it's giving up the French fries, you know, but whatever the step is that you can take, I just want to say more power to you. We're here to help you, you know, because it matters.

It really, really matters. And every step you take builds momentum and helps make the next step easier. For so many people, apathy is the thief of destiny. So what is some action steps that you might encourage people to do from your book that just are doable, that will change how they feel, will change the things that matter? Well, you can look at the worst offenders. Think about what's in your kitchen, what's in your fridge, what's on your menu, where do you eat out? What are the spots where the least healthy foods enter your life? And try to eliminate a couple of them, you know, by developing positive

solutions. You know, if you find that you're sometimes tired and worn out after a long day of work and you stop by, eat out for fast food or stop by and grab convenience, ready-to-go foods that aren't so healthy, maybe you want to plan ahead. Have some ready-to-go stuff in the fridge or freezer. Maybe you want to find a friend that can make dinner for you on Tuesday nights because they're really stressful for you. Create a food sharing program with people at work where on Mondays I bring lunch for four of us and on Tuesdays Wendy does. Not Wendy's?

No, not Wendy's. Chill. We can share. I love building community. Any way we can build positive social reinforcement. I mean, we know that we are more likely to exercise when we have a date with somebody. If you have a tennis date or hiking date. Which I do later today. Fabulous. Yeah. Wonderful. Yeah. That gets us out. It creates accountability and the same can happen around food. You can also get clear out your spice rack. Spices are amazing. You know, we tend to season

our food in the U.S. with salt, sugar, and fat, but you can actually season with, you know, pepper and black pepper and red pepper and, you know, turmeric and all these other spices. They are. I don't know if you noticed this morning, the coffee tastes a little different because I made them coffee and I put in cardamom with the coffee grounds so that it would flavor the coffee with the spice and give extra phytochemicals and deliciousness. So wonderful. You know, spices make food taste better, but they also add so many wonderful antioxidants and fabulous nutrients to food. And there are studies showing garlic, for example, helps your immune system. It helps fight cancer. It's a superfood, actually. Unless you want to get really close to somebody who also has a superfood.

Yeah, there is that. There is that. If they eat it too, then they won't notice it as much. That's why I gave my wife garlic this morning. Yeah, this is just such an exciting book. And I think it's time that we as a culture, as a society, even globally, start to grapple with the power of food to change the things that matter for us. And you have done such a good job in your book of outlining this. And not just in your book, but the Food Revolution Network, the summits that you have, I've been privileged to be a part of them, are really changing the conversation about what food is and how to change what we do.

And I think I can't tell you how grateful I am personally that you and your dad are doing this work, that you've written this book to guide people. I've read a lot of books, reviewed a lot of books. This one's really special because it's inclusive. It's not divisive. It addresses so many of the challenges we face, whether it's how to eat well on a budget, whether it's how to understand some of the nuances of things like GMO that we're all confused about, how to build community. And it's actionable. And there's all these wonderful, really practical steps for people to do. And it's pretty inspiring. Well, thank you, Mark. I had a lot of fun writing it. And ultimately, I want to put the power in your hands and everyone's hands to create the lives and the health and the world that we want.

So sometimes we look at things and we feel pretty hopeless. I mean, this is a very hopeful book. And I get, you know, I've been writing another book. I don't know why I do this, but it's kind of a masochist, I think. I must be. And it's called Food Fix. And it's going to come out in 2020. But the idea, I'm trying to understand is the impact of our food system. And, you know, I was talking to one of the researchers who's helping me and just, just so getting so depressed about the way in which the food industry has control over, for example, the government or nutrition science. And it's so, it's so disturbing to me how powerful that force is to shift things in the wrong direction.

How do you, in that context, have hope? And what is the hope that you see that's emerging from the food movement? And how do we grab onto that? Well, first of all, we are up against some pretty formidable forces that are pretty invested in the status quo. I mean, there's a lot of money being made from the status quo, both with agribusiness, but also with the medical industry. I mean, 19% of our GDP is going to drugs and surgeries and treatments for the symptoms of disease.

That's a lot of money. And most of it's caused by food. Right. We're talking trillions of dollars are at play here from the status quo and the preservation of the status quo. And I'm not saying doctors are staying up all night trying to figure out how to make you know, make people sick. I'm saying that they're part of a system

that doesn't have incentive to make people well, you know, ultimately. I mean, what's amazing to me, and you point this out, is that nutrition and bad food is the cause of most chronic disease. And yet doctors know nothing about food and learn none of it in medical school. Right, 19 hours of nutritional education is the average in all of medical school.

And most of that is on specific nutrients and deficiencies and how to diagnose. Nothing about what to eat. And it's also the cure. Right. Out of 150 medical schools in the United States, only four have a single dedicated faculty on food, right? And yet we know food is the foundation of health. We're treating it like a little afterthought. So we're up against some powerful forces and the factory farming industry

is heavily invested in how to exploit animals for maximal profit, regardless of the cost to them or the planet or our own health. And in that context, it can be easy to feel overwhelmed because, you know, you drive down the street, stop at any convenience store, stop at any fast food restaurant. And at least for me, there's not much I can eat there, you know, given the values I hold. There might be a banana now at the counter. It may be some nuts, maybe a banana if you're lucky. But the nuts are usually like deep fried. Yeah, and the banana is from a tropical country and it's saturated in pesticides and fungicides.

But anyway, you know, enough on that. What gives me hope, Mark, is that we're changing all that. You know, in the last generation, we've seen a five-fold increase in the number of farmers markets in the United States, a four-fold increase in the amount of organic food sold. Natural foods are exploding. When I was a kid, you know, you couldn't find soy milk in a safe way. And nowadays, it's like, is it soy? Is it almond? Is it oat? Is it rice? You know, there's all these options. People are demanding change and it's spreading. More and more people care where their food comes from, how it was produced. Fair trade is taking off. Local is

taking off. Community supported agriculture. More and more people are buying direct from farmers. And I realize it's still niche and it's still far too stratified economically. So the wealthier you are, the more likely you are to participate in these kinds of things. And I think we need to change that so that everybody has access to these opportunities. But it is starting and growing and gaining traction. 95% of American consumers in a recent survey said they sometimes make healthier choices when they have the option. But only 25% understood or felt confident that they knew what healthier options were. So we need to spread the education about what we actually know. I think we have a sea of confusion,

a crisis, an epidemic even of confusion around nutrition. And what's happening is that it preserves the status quo. When you're confused, you tend to stick with what's familiar. Well, that's on purpose. It's not an accident. The nutrition industry funds about $12 billion of research a year, the government about a billion. And the food industry funds about $12 billion and the government funds about a billion. And the studies that come out from the food industry always show benefit for their product, whether it's dairy or soda or whatever, that there's not an issue. And so that's why it confuses the science. Sure. I mean, the tobacco industry for a long time said the jury was still out. We didn't know. Let's not do anything rash. And then eventually they caved. I think that we're going to see something similar with sugary sodas, for example. We're already seeing soda taxes in a few places.

We'll probably see warning labels before long. It's the writings on the wall. The epidemic costs are enormous and clear. But the good news is that consumers are creating marketplace change. We're building a new economy based around healthy food. You know, the way I look at it, food 1.0 is survival. If you can get enough calories to fill your belly, then that's success. Food 2.0, the central organizing principle is commerce, the buying and selling of goods. That's what my grandpa was so

good at, you know, 31 flavors of ice cream, you know. And it's brought us a lot of taste and texture in cuisine and cheap food. Unfortunately, it's morally bankrupt. And that's why I say we need to go to food 3.0, where the central organizing principle is health, you know, health for our bodies and health for our planet. And I think there are healthy profits in food 3.0. It's just they come from healthy food. And I think we're creating that new economy. And it can happen very fast. And even the big food industry is starting to get on board. They're realizing that the policies and practices that made them giants in the 20th century will make them dinosaurs in the 21st century if they don't make some changes.

And it's happening. I mean, even I've worked with senior executives at, you know, Nestle and Coca-Cola and a lot of these other companies. They're buying up natural brands. Yes. They're kind of hedging their bets because they realize that they're losing the trust of the American consumer and they want to be on the natural ride so that if the organic, natural, you know, foods continue to grow in popularity, they're not going to be left out in the cold.

It's true. It's true. They are feeling the pressure. I can tell you that. I've been with some of these executives too. I've been visited in Nestle main factory, I mean, in Cleveland, which is where they have one of the main centers in America, the research center. And they showed me how they're taking their traditional products and they're removing a lot of the bad ingredients. Right, right.

They're actually, ingredient labels are actually getting smaller in a lot of products. Which is impressive. So that is hopeful. Yeah. I think we need to do more. Obviously, you and I want this to happen tomorrow. Yes.

And you know, you don't have to wait for Nestle or McDonald's or Coke or the U.S. government to change its policies to eat real healthy food and reap the benefits starting now. I think the other hopeful message is that the average person has tremendous power to change all of this. You can't end natural disasters. You can't end war easily as a single human. But you can change the food system. And it is happening, I can tell you, but you can change the food system. And

it is happening, I can tell you, because the leaders in the food industry are actually changing their practices based on these kinds of things. And it doesn't take much. And I encourage everybody listening to read Ocean Robbins' new book, 31 Day Food Revolution, How to Heal Your Body, Feel Great, Transform Your World, and learn about how to take the action that's going to make a difference for you, your family, your community, the planet, everything that matters. If you were king for a day, last question, and you could actually wave your regal staff and change something that would have huge impact in the world, what would it be? Well, in the world of food, I mean, policy-wise,

I don't know if I could just choose one thing. Can I do a few? So I would double the value of food stamps or SNAP program dollars for fruits and vegetables. We have a program like that with Wholesome Wave. 500,000 Americans are taking advantage of it right now. And guess what? Guess what? They're eating more fruits and vegetables and they're healthier because of it. I would end the subsidies of commodities, crops, and the tens of billions of dollars of taxpayer money that are bringing down the price of factory farm meat and high fructose corn syrup. And if I was going to subsidize anything, I would try to subsidize healthy food for low-income communities. Let's stop subsidizing Wonder Bread. Let's start subsidizing broccoli.

I would mandate that nutrition education is part of medical school. And I would make sure that the National Board of Medical Examiners included nutrition on the exam tests that are given to medical school graduates before they get their license so that schools who teach to the test would have to include nutrition in the process. And I don't just mean nutrition. I mean how to help implement it with patients. And then those are probably on day one. I would ultimately, if I really was king, I would ban the factory farming system altogether. I think that cooping up animals in deplorable conditions, feeding them grain and soy that is wasted because it takes 12 pounds of grain or soy to make one pound of feedlot beef, creating an environmental disaster,

and then giving ourselves heart attacks is kind of a bad combination. Yeah, it doesn't sound good. Yeah. So I would ban that system. And I would say, if we're going to eat meat, let's make it sure it's pasture-raised and comes from animals that saw the sun and ate grass and lived a decent quality of life. Okay. So when are you announcing your candidacy for presidency in 2020? I would vote for you. Here's what I want to say. I think everybody right now, we get to be the president of our own lives. We give too much power to political leaders,

and we forget that the real power of our destiny lies much more in our hands than we often realize. That's what we have the most say over. Yes, vote at the ballot box, but at the end of the day, vote with your knife and fork. Vote with your relationships. Vote with how you live day in and day out. Because that's really what changes the world. Fantastic.

Well, thank you, Ocean, for this really important conversation. You know, as I often say, Martin Luther King said, our lives begin to end the day we're silent about things that matter. And you and your dad and your whole Food Revolution network and your book is really speaking out loudly about things that really matter. So thank you for that. I really appreciate it. Oh, thank you, Mark. And it does matter. And thank you for shining such a bright light on the most critical issues of our times. Doctors pharmacy. What a, what a beautiful, beautiful message.

Thank you. Thank you. Well, you've been listening to the doctor's, a place for conversations that matter. If you love this podcast and this conversation, please sign up and subscribe to the podcast anywhere you get your podcasts. Share with your friends and family on social media. And we'll see you next time on The Doctor's Pharmacy.