The Dr. Hyman Show - Healing Childhood Trauma Can Fix Your Relationships, Happiness And Physical Health with Nedra Tawwab

Episode Date: August 16, 2023

This episode is brought to you by Rupa Health, ButcherBox, ARMRA Colostrum, and Apollo. So many of us struggle with relationships. In fact, our relationships determine the quality of our life more than anything else. Unfortunately, the relationships many of us grew up around–and might consider “normal”--are, in fact, dysfunctional, creating a negative cycle we often don’t even realize we’re in.  Today on The Doctor’s Farmacy, I’m excited to talk to Nedra Tawwab about how to identify dysfunctional patterns in our relationships and what we can do to break the cycle and move forward. Nedra Glover Tawwab is the author of the New York Times bestsellers Drama Free and Set Boundaries, Find Peace. A licensed therapist and sought-after relationship expert, she has practiced relationship therapy for more than fifteen years. Nedra has appeared as an expert on Red Table Talk, The Breakfast Club, Good Morning America, and CBS Morning Show to name a few. Her work has been highlighted in The New York Times, The Guardian, and Vice, and has appeared on numerous podcasts, including The School of Greatness, We Can Do Hard Things, and Ten Percent Happier. Nedra runs a popular Instagram account where she shares practices, tools, and reflections for mental health and relationships.  This episode is brought to you by Rupa Health, ButcherBox, ARMRA Colostrum, and Apollo. ​​Access more than 3,000 specialty lab tests with Rupa Health. You can check out a free, live demo with a Q&A or create an account at RupaHealth.com today. For new members of ButcherBox, you can receive New York Strip Steaks for a year PLUS $20 off your first order. Go to Butcherbox.com/farmacy and use code FARMACY. Receive 15% off your first order of ARMRA Colostrum. Go to tryarmra.com/MARK or enter MARK to get 15% off your first order. Visit apolloneuro.com/drhyman to save $40 on Apollo's wearable device. Here are more details from our interview (audio version / Apple Subscriber version): Setting boundaries as a people-pleaser (5:35 / 2:45) How to recognize and unlearn family dysfunction (8:13 / 6:17)   How childhood trauma impacts adult relationships (15:27 / 13:12) Changing relationships by setting boundaries (18:54 / 16:30)  The connection between sleep issues and relationship issues (26:26 / 22:40)  Tools for shifting our relationships and patterns (28:38 / 24:41) Toxic forgiveness (36:17 / 32:20) Impacting change in others (58:45 / 52:08)   Breaking family patterns in parenting (1:00:48 / 57:23)  Learn more at nedratawwab.com and @nedratawwab. Get a copy of Drama Free: A Guide to Managing Unhealthy Family Relationships.

Coming up on this episode of The Doctor's Pharmacy. When we think about mental health, there are so many physical aspects to that that show up in a treatment space. The number one being sleep issues. So many people with relationship issues have sleep issues. Hi everyone, it's Dr. Mark. As a functional medicine doctor looking at hormones, organic acids, nutrient levels, inflammatory factors, gut bacteria, and so many other internal variables, it helps me find the most effective path to health and healing for my patients. But such extensive testing can be very complicated and time-consuming for both the practitioner, somebody like me, and our patients. But lab ordering became very quick

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then you're going to love this podcast because uh i know i need it and certainly there's been plenty of drama in my family and i've struggled to figure out how to deal with it and i'm sure many of you also are in the same boat and we have an expert to help us navigate these very treacherous waters of relationships. It's Nedra Glover-Toab. She's the author of the New York Times bestsellers, Drama Free, which sounds like a great place to start, Set Boundaries, always hard for me, Find Peace, which would be amazing.

She's a life therapist and sought-after relationship expert. She's practiced relationship therapy for more than 15 years. She's appeared on Red Table Talk, The Breakfast Club, Good Morning America, CBS Morning Show, just to name a few. Her work has been highlighted in the New York Times and Guardian Advice. And she's appeared on numerous podcasts, including The School of Greatness. Oh yeah, Lewis Howes is awesome. We Can Do Hard Things, 10% Happier. Dan Harris is awesome. I love him. And Nedra runs a popular Instagram account where she shares practices, tools, and reflections for mental health and relationships. And she lives in Charlotte, North Carolina with her family. Welcome. Hi, thank you for having me. Well,

so great to have you. I think this is going to be such an important podcast because so many of us struggle with relationships. And from my perspective as a doctor, one of the foundational principles of health is healthy relationships. You know, it's nutrition, exercise, sleep, you know, stress management and healthy relationships. And actually it's at the bottom of our matrix in functional medicine, what we use to actually diagnose people. So if you have stressful relationships, it plays a huge role in your health. And I think it's important to understand how to navigate those. And we don't really get a roadmap.

You know, we learn reading, writing, and arithmetic, but we don't learn the other R, which is relationships. And it's probably the thing that determines the quality of our life more than anything else. I think, I forget who said it, but, you know, the quality of our relationships determines the quality of our life. Maybe Esther Perel said it. And I think that's true. And often we sort of don't know how to have healthy relationships. So one of the things you talk about, Nedra, is the idea of boundaries and personal boundaries in healthy relationships, because they kind of set expectations. They kind of help us understand the right behaviors,

how we communicate with others. But setting boundaries can be really hard. And especially if you're someone like me, who's a niceaholic and a people pleaser, which I've managed to wrestle to the ground, but I still struggle a little bit with it. It's really hard because you don't want to say no, you want to please people, which actually I think is a very selfish thing because what you're trying to do is avoid their wrath or their anger, which I did as a kid. I had a very rageaholic dad. So I learned to be somebody who was constantly vigilant to his moods and his rage and managed to actually, you know, sort of people please and do the right thing and lie and say all the things that, you know, where my heart wanted to say

something, but my mouth said something else. So how do we sort of navigate this? And why is this so hard to set boundaries? And what blocks us from it? And then what do we do in relationships when boundaries are crossed? Hmm. You mentioned people pleasing. And I think most people to some extent, if we think about people pleasing on a spectrum, most of us are somewhere on the

spectrum. And for those of us who are very high people pleasers, boundaries are going to be really hard because all you worry about is what will they think? What will they do? What will happen after I say this thing? They're going to be mad. They're going to be upset. Anxiety really takes over and gets in the way of you being able to set a boundary. I will say that when you have safe relationships where you feel emotionally comfortable, it's much easier to set boundaries with people. And each of us, we have the opportunity to help someone feel emotionally safe and comfortable, bringing up issues, talking through things, just by thinking about the way we respond when things come up. We're not shutting people down. We're allowing them to have an issue with us. That's a wonderful way to create an environment

where people actually feel comfortable and you're minimizing some people pleasing. But, you know, we like to have our way. And so sometimes it's really hard for us to hear bad stuff. And so we do, you know, become defensive and we push back and we challenge people, which again, it makes it really hard for a person, particularly those with lots of people pleasing tendencies to speak up. Yeah. I mean, I for sure, you know, had struggled with this my whole life.

And what I realized in the end was that actually not telling the truth and not having clear boundaries was in some ways very manipulative. For me, I was trying to manipulate other people's emotional response so that I didn't have to deal with the wrath or the reaction or the discomfort of what it would feel like if they were unhappy or they were going to blow up at me or put my life at risk, which it felt like as a kid. So I'm sort of dealing with this ancient programming and I've done a tremendous amount of work around it. I feel much better and I'm proud of myself for saying no, but I still want to get that email and somebody asked me something. I still go through that experience of, oh, I don't want to say no, but I'm going to say no, but it's hard. And how do I do it right? It's such an interesting

struggle for so many of us. And in your and in your book, drama free, which, which sounds like a dream for relationships, like, you know, you discuss the importance of unlearning dysfunction. And, you know, how do you know what dysfunction looks like? How do you recognize it in family? And how do you start to think about managing dysfunctional family relationships? Because, you know, I think Ram Dass said, if you think you're enlightened, just go home for Thanksgiving, right? You know, yesterday I was reading a lovely article. I believe it was in The Atlantic. And it was about a person who inherited being a rageaholic from their father who was a rageaholic.

And she spoke about an incident where her father picked her up from the dentist and she wasn't ready yet. And he flipped out. He started screaming in the lobby, cussing out the staff. And she didn't even get her service. So when she went back a few weeks later, they written on her chart. She saw they written on her chart. Dad has a lot of rage. See this patient immediately. Yeah. Yeah. And she talks about how for a while she didn't have any rage and then she had kids and she noticed once she had kids, she would start to fly off the handle. So that is, you know, typically what happens with dysfunction. Like we experience it and we repeat it because we're not aware of how it impacted,

how it impacted us and the things that are required to overcome some of those tendencies. And so unlearning the dysfunction is first acknowledging what it is. Is it rage? Is it alcoholism? Is it maybe everyone in your family has these toxic partnerships? It could be all sorts of things. I think historically we think about family dysfunction as like abuse, neglect, like these really big things when there are so many

things that happen in homes that can be a level of dysfunction because dysfunction is an unhealthy pattern in a relationship. It's sort of in the Bible, right? The sins of the fathers are visited upon their children or sons or something. I forget the exact passage, but it's like this intergenerational trauma that just kind of goes on and on and on through cycles. And I remember, just to kind of share a few stories, my stepfather, when I was seven, my mom just got remarried. And, you know, I was a little boy, and we just moved in this new house. And my, you know, we didn't have those carburetors, you know, when you disposals in the sink back in the day, because I was in the 60s, and I'm old. And, and she said, Can you please throw the soup down the toilet. So I took the

soup pot, I brought to the bathroom, I flushed it down the toilet. And my stepfather was a, you know, kind of clean freak. And he stood outside the bathroom and this booming voice said, you know, did you wash your hands? And I just told the truth. I said, no, because I didn't go to the bathroom. I just, you know, I just flushed the soup down the toilet. And he went into a rage. He picked me up. He threw me against the wall, across the room on the bed. I mean, it was just terrifying. And so I learned that telling the truth wasn't safe. And so that was just sort of the pattern that I repeated. My mom reinforced that. And it's sort of, I didn't actually, you know, repeat the rage in my life, but I kind of took that early learned pattern and it's affected so much of my life. So I've gotten a lot better

about it, but it's definitely these intergenerational things that go on. My, my actually my father, the same thing. I finally understood, you know, some of his behaviors when he started talking about his grandfather, what an asshole he was and how he treated his father and how his father treated him. And I began to see this sort of linkages over generations. And so the real question is how do we start to break the, this intergenerational trauma? How do you, you know, how do you kind of break it? Because people don't even know, people aren't even aware like of this.

It's just like they're in the kind of in the matrix of it. You know, like you don't even know you're in the matrix. And then there's a way to get out of the matrix and see what's going on. So you can begin to break these generational traumas and the lineage that needs to be healed. Every time we speak about our stories, we are taking a step towards breaking some patterns because silence is a really big pattern, you know,

pretending as if, you know, everything was okay, nothing really happened. And that can be very challenging when you still have relationships with some of these people who cause the major issues in your life. It's really hard to recover in an unwell relationship. And so the more that we're silent about those things that happen, the more that we suffer silent about those things that happen the more that we suffer and so even you just sharing that story your your heart is getting a little lighter you're able to reflect on it in a different way and pull some you know things out of that story and think about you know I hear you talking well, this is how it manifested in my life. Like those are things that I think many of us, we really don't do. We don't talk about

those moments because we're trying to forget them. We think the forgetting is the healing when in actuality, the healing is processing these things. Because when you're seven years old, you don't even have the mental bandwidth to understand what's happening to you. And you certainly can't respond to it because it's not even safe to. But now you can. You can talk about that story and say, oh, gosh, that made me feel so scared. I felt like this should have happened. I was so shocked when this happened. Those are the things that we never got to do in the moment because it was like, oh, my gosh, it was a crisis. And so now that you are away from the incident, it is very beneficial to think about how you felt in those situations, what was more appropriate in that

situation and how you continue to be impacted by those events. Yeah, I know it's true. It's, you know, really helped me to sort of look back at them and understand what, what interpretation I made about the world from those experiences. Like my interpretation was that, you know, my stepfather, you know, was not safe and I can't tell the truth, you know, and that may have been true with him, but it wasn't generally true for everybody. But I basically took that sort of software programming and I carried it through my whole life. And, you know, I spent the last 20 years trying to unwind it once I really understood it. And, and I think a lot of people suffer in the same way. They don't have the tools to actually do it.

But what it's interesting, I'd love you to talk a little bit more about is when these things happen to us in our childhood, maybe you can share some examples. It carries over to when we're adults. And then that trauma gets re-triggered and the cycles, you know, repeated. So how do these childhood relationships impact our adult, the childhood, you know, traumas impact our adult relationships? And how do you kind of break that cycle of those unhealthy family patterns? Well, you mentioned it just a bit ago, the interpretations we create from those events, we apply to everything. So it's not just my mom is unsafe. It's everybody is unsafe. It's

I can't, you know, do anything without, you know, like we, we create that as an overarching theme in our lives. So when we get into romantic relationships, friendships, we're repeating a lot of those same dynamics because this is our belief system. Now, people, it's gone from my mom is not safe to people are not safe. No one listens to me. You know, we create these these stories and they don't necessarily have to be true for us to believe them. And it's really hard, especially when it's your parents. Right. To believe that other people in the world can treat you favorably when you've had unhealthy experiences with your parents, with your siblings, with close family members. So it takes a lot of work to get back to that space of people can be

trustworthy. I have to allow myself to be open. Perhaps this is a safe person. Perhaps this person is doing things and they can manage their own behavior. Perhaps this is a situation where I can speak up and I don't need to walk on eggshells. What happens if you have a family member where, you know, they're still in their dynamic, right? And they're still, you still, you know, if you told the truth or whatever, you would just get craziness or rage or, you know, vitriol and, you know, abuse. How do you deal with that? Because you might personally like have sorted out in yourself, but then when you're still in that dynamic, what do you do?

Well, you know, I don't think we can go to unwell spaces and expect healing. When a person is unwell and they have no interest in shifting their behaviors or owning up to anything, it can be re-traumatizing. Thank you. It could be re-traumatizing to go to these folks and say, oh, my gosh, remember that time you slapped me in the face? And they're like, no, I didn't. Or you deserved it. You know, because sometimes people will say, well, I did that because. Or it didn't happen that way. Then now we're being gaslit.

Yeah, now you're being gaslit. And you're in this space of, well, did this happen? Am I remembering this correctly? Did maybe I'm overreacting? Maybe they weren't. So going back to a person who is who is still in those unhealthy behaviors, it's not always best. It's not always best to expect them to validate what happened. What what can happen is to, you know, as we love to say, meet them where they are. Right. So you can decide what type of relationship you can have with this person or you can decide to not have a relationship. When that this is where boundaries comes in, right? Now, if someone is yelling at

you, you have the power to walk away, to leave, to end the conversation, to do all of these other things that maybe you didn't have the power to do in childhood. Maybe when someone asked you to do something, you had to do it, but now you have choices. It's no, I don't want to, I'm not coming to this thing. If this is going to be your behavior. So you have choices now. So it's not about changing this other person or making them understand their behaviors. They not, they may not be ready for that. They may never be ready for that. you know, it's often very confronting to people who are used to you behaving a certain way. And then all of a sudden you change your way of relating and it's very, it can be very disruptive for them. And then they get really upset. And then it's like, you have to kind of tolerate that, that period of transition where you change the rules, right? You change the rules by

creating boundaries that protect you and, and, and are enabling you to have at least some relationship with a family member. So if it's a kid or a parent or a sibling, you know, you hopefully don't cut them out of your life forever. You want to sort of figure out how to navigate that, right? Yeah, there's an adjustment phase. When you're making these changes, you've been thinking about them. Maybe you've been to therapy. You've told your partner. You've shared with your friends all of these changes you're going to make.

The person in the relationship that you want to change, they don't know. They don't know the history of your issue and all the work you've done to make this request or to set this boundary or whatever it is. So in that case, they may feel like the relationship has been disrupted. There may be a phase of discomfort in the relationship, a few days of, you know, maybe not talking to each other or figuring out like how to navigate this. Or they may completely disrespect what you said, because they want to continue in their behaviors. And that's when you start to issue the consequence of not respecting that boundary. What is the consequence? If you set this boundary, what will you do if they're not listening to you?

I think sometimes we think. That's a great question. Yeah. A really common one is a family member who comes to your house without letting you know they're stopping by. Right. So if you say to them, hey, give me a call before you come and they continue to them when they arrive? Do you let them know, hey, this isn't a good time. I wasn't prepared for a visitor. There are so many things you can do that can be consequential to their actions so that they can understand. Oh, I need to call before I show up or I need to send a text. We assume that the people that we have issues with have issues with everyone. It is typically not true. That person who's showing up to your house without warning, they make doctor's appointments, right? They don't just pop up at the doctor. So it's like they have the ability to not be impulsive for some reason with you, because there's no consequence,

they can be impulsive. So if you want their behavior to change, you will have to have the conversation with them to say, Hey, this is my boundary. And if you don't respect it, here is the consequence. Yeah. That's very powerful because it's really, it's not just having a boundary, but it's having a clear conversation. It's having a clear expectation and a clear setting of boundaries and then a clear understanding of what the consequences are if those boundaries are breached. So it's actually a very tough conversation to have for most people. But I think what you're saying is that that leads to less drama and more clarity and more healthy dynamics.

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often involves starting from scratch. I'd like to know what you mean by that. And like, it seems like it's easier said than done. You know, like it's not on your computer. You can just wipe the hard drive and start over. Well, there are times when the relationship is such a disruption to your mental health and well-being that you can't have the relationship. I've seen that so often in therapy where people present with depression, anxiety, personality issues. And the biggest trigger is a relationship. It is going home

for Thanksgiving. It is a birthday. It is, you know, a particular month in the year or even a conversation with a person that will spin you into an episode that is now impacting your mental health and certainly your physical health. Because when we think about mental health, there are so many physical aspects to that that show up in a treatment space. The number one being sleep issues. You know, so many people with relationship issues have sleep issues because they're anxious and they're thinking about what to say, what to think. Why didn't I say this when they said that to me? What will that, what will I do next time? Like all of these things, the replaying, the, you know, all of that stuff, it keeps us up at night.

All of the, you know, the yeses. Yes, I can help you with this. Yes, I can help you with that. When we lay down at night, we're like, oh my gosh, how am I going to fit this all in? So, so, you know, I think we like to separate like, oh, you know, mental health wise is like mental health, physical, it impacts so much of who we are. So, you know, these conversations, although they seem, you know, hard to have and it may seem hard to move away from certain relationships when needed, it can certainly be something that have no hope of changing, you will constantly be in these mental and physical health cycles that are not great for you. Well, it's the real physiological stress and that, you know, stress causes or contributes to 95% of all illness. So if you are in this constant low grade stress from bad relationship dynamics, it has a huge

effect on your health, which is why it's really at the foundation of what I call lifestyle. But it's not just actually what you eat and exercise. It's really relationships. And you look at longevity hotspots like the Blue Zones around the world, they have deep connections and relationships. And that's part of the secret, I think, of of their, their longevity is, is, is deep sense of belonging, social connections and fun and being with other people. And I've been to these places and it's amazing. It's like a very different set of

dynamics. I'm sure they have their dramas, but it's like, it's hard. So, you know, for us, how do we, how do we sort of, you know, reboot ourselves? Is there a process or a set of tools or kind of a workshop-y kind of process that you can go through with yourself or the therapist that actually helps to kind of rewrite that software that makes us sort of respond in these automatic ways, these automatic ways of being that are programmed when we're childhood? Well, one of the most common types of therapy is cognitive behavioral, and I find it to be very effective for shifting the way we think about our lives and our relationships and certainly our behaviors. create certain scripts, we have to rewrite the script. When we have certain patterns, we have to believe that there is a new way to exist. And so a cognitive behavioral approach is usually pretty effective. And I think also a narrative approach, that talking and reprocessing

a lot of what the story is, because the story to a seven-year-old is not the same story to a 17-year-old or a 27-year-old. And so sometimes we have to think about the story we've been telling and all of the figures in it and the other factors. And, you know, there are so many things that we haven't gotten to the bottom of because we're not even, you know, maybe thinking about it. When I work with people who were mature for their age, you know, made to be many adults, one of the exercises I'll do is I'll say, you know, go to a store and just look at the toys and the age that are on the toys. And they're shocked because at whatever age that was, they were cooking for their siblings.

They weren't playing with Legos at four. They weren't doing these things that are actually appropriate. This is what you're supposed to do when you're seven. It's not making sure your siblings get on the bus. It's not waking your parents up to go to work. That's not what you were supposed to be doing. So just showing them, wow, can you believe the activities you had? If we look up, you know, you could go to a website and say appropriate chores for a 12-year-old. You were doing way more than that. So just showing people sometimes that this version that you've created of yourself, you may have needed these skills. It may have been really important to be a people pleaser when you were seven. That helped

you survive. It did. Totally. Right. Yeah. That's not a bad thing. So, you know, I try to use a very encouraging approach. Like that was a great thing. I'm happy you use those skills because it got you through that environment. But now we need a different set of skills. You're no longer in that environment. So those old tools are now ineffective for the healthy relationships you want to create. It's really true. You know, I sort of realized that a lot of my, you know, adaptive behaviors become maladaptive as they get older. And, you know, that was really helpful for me to sort of look at the meaning I made from those experiences. So when things happen to you as a kid, you, you tell a story about what it means and what it, and then you generalize it your whole life. So,

you know, for example, my stepfather example, I, I, I learned from that experience that it wasn't safe to tell the truth. And then I generalized that to everything, which isn't, which isn't actually a true interpretation of reality. And it was really hard to reprogram. And I think, I think, you know, there's, you know, you know, families are complex, right? There's sort of a cultural system. You describe them as a cultural system. I'd love you to explain what that means and what role that plays in, you know, dysfunctional families. In dysfunctional families, one of the biggest cultural dynamics is silence, not really talking about problems and just moving on as if nothing is happening. I remember once going to a family function and a fight broke out because between a cousin and his girlfriend. And it was, it was

like, they got into a physical altercation. And once, you know, the crisis settled down, it was like, we were eating again. It was no, there was no like, oh my gosh, what's going on? Is this person okay? It was like, it was so the norm. This was the norm at the family gathering. And so sometimes when we're in those dysfunctional situations, we will take our dysfunctional norms and think that everybody does this. This is pretending, you know, don't tell our business or what happens here stays here. Don't tell your grandmother this. Don't tell this. Don't go to school and say this because they know. Keep secrets lying, right? It's like a lying culture. Yeah, it's a lying culture because if you're honest, like, hey, we don't have water. It's

like, oh my gosh, they're going to come take you. It's like, well, people should know that. Like, that is a problematic thing. But when you're in a system that says, hey, if you say this, if you say that, we're going to get in trouble. It's like, are we getting in trouble for a reason? Is there something that people should be concerned about? Now, there are some things, you know, you may not want to share how much your parents make. You may not want to share, you know, there are some things, you know, you may not want to share how much your parents make. You may not want to share, you know, there are some things you may want to keep secret. But if they are harmful things, we have to rethink the secrets that we've been holding and the people that we've been protecting. So the culture of it is what feels normal in this environment? What is, you know, the way that we respond to things. And it becomes really impactful when there are other people who are pulled into the family.

Like when you get married and you step into, you know, your partner's culture. And you're like, oh my gosh, everybody here is yelling. Is this a part? And it's like, yeah, this is a part of the cultural dynamic. They're loud. You know, they yell. So there are certain behaviors that we exude as a family. And often we may not notice until we engage with other families or we see something on TV or we start to have friendships and we start to see how other families operate. Yeah, it's so true. You know, like I think of my family, you know, Jewish families, very, very loud and often yelling, you know, it's like, and, you know, I got it, got it. It was my friends from like, you know, WASP families. And it's like, whoa, you guys like, there's so much underneath the surface there.

But you guys all like are pretending and polite and nice, but like seething underneath. It's like so weird. But yeah, I suppose just like getting it out. You know, one of the things that you talk about is this concept of toxic forgiveness. So what is that? And, you know, what are the myths about forgiveness? Because often in order to move on in relationships, you've got to kind of forgive and let go and move on. Well, toxic forgiveness is when we pretend to forgive and forget. And we're moving through

these relationships with this passive aggressive undertone, because in actuality, we still have some issues with the person or with the situation that transpired with the person. With forgiveness, there is this idea that we have the ability to forget. And I've seen a lot of Marvel movies. And I think that, you know, we think, oh, my superpower is forgetting all of this terrible stuff that's happened to me. Like, that's my superpower. And it's not real for us humans. You know, it's like you can forgive, but you will remember. You can forgive. And sometimes certain feelings might still come up depending on what's happening. You can forgive and still talk to the person about the thing that they did that bothered

you or harmed the relationship. You can forgive and decide not to reconcile, right? Because that's a big thing. People will say, oh, you don't forgive them because you don't want to talk to them anymore. No, I forgive them. I, you know, I wish them well. I try to, you know, send positive energy their way, but because they have not changed or because the event was so significant, I am unwilling to put myself in harm's way again, but I do forgive them. So there is this idea that, oh my gosh, you must forgive and stay bonded to the person who's causing the issues. When in actuality, you can decide not to do that. You can continue to

talk about it. You can do many, many things, but pretending that you don't have an issue with someone is toxic for us. And it's one of the things that we often do in families in particular, because that's just the way it has to be. You know, it's, it's like, you know, you could have a situation with your sibling where there's a big fight. And then five minutes later, your parent is like, you know, apologize to your brother and it's okay. Sorry. And then you're punching them again. It's like, are you really sorry? It seems like you were really holding on to that. Yeah. Well, I'm wondering, I'm wondering if you, you know, have personal examples from your life where you've kind of had to relearn some of these things,

if you're open to sharing them with, I think we'd love to hear sort of how you've navigated and learned these things. Cause I'm sure, you know, like all of us, we have issues and, and we learn from them. And some of those stories I think are helpful to kind of get people understand how to actually do it. Yes. So I was certainly a child who grew up very fast because of my environment and I was mature for my age. So lots of adults would share things with me and I was the listener sometimes because I was curious and sometimes because the adults had no one else to talk to. And, you know, I was a kid and I had to listen. So with that, I wasn't a very playful child, like, you know, playing with toys

and that sort of thing. So as an adult, I find that, you know, just last week I took my kids to the arcade and I played as much as they did. So that's something that I've had to relearn, like how to play. Because even as a kid, I'm like, who wants to play a game? I'm watching mature content on TV and reading the same books as my mom. So I'm not thinking about like, oh, let's go play Pac-Man. But now I know that it is an important part of being a human being. It's not just a kid thing. It's a person thing to go to the arcade and play basketball and to play skeeball and all of these things. I am years behind because I did not play in childhood, might I add. So your video game skills are not so good. I know I need to spend the rest of my adulthood figuring that part out. But, you know, I think there is this, you know, ability in some instances to reclaim those things that we could not have,

you know, because of that level of maturity, I've been responsible for a really long time. I've been getting myself up, getting myself together, working since I was 14. And sometimes I have to remind myself, it is okay to rest and relax and not be productive. Sit on this couch, don't get up, watch this, you know, whatever movie. You don't have to respond to email. You don't have to write. You don't have to do anything. You can just do nothing. And it is a practice to really get myself to the space of enjoying it and not guilt tripping myself for not doing enough, not guilt tripping myself for having that time away. Because you were an over-responsible child, right? And I think that's actually had the same experience. My mother, you know, again, this is the intergenerational thing,

my mother was the child of deaf parents. So her parents couldn't hear at all. And she was the first child and basically she could hear. And so she was the voice in the ears of my grandparents. And basically she, she had to take care of them from a very young age, like five years old and go to the butcher and go to the baker and talk to them. And, and she, she had a term for this called a parentified child. And she did the same thing to me. I mean, she basically used me as her therapist. And it was really inappropriate.

And she had a bad marriage with my stepfather. And I was sort of the same thing. I didn't really play in that way. I was way ahead. And I felt like I was an adult very young and, and had to take care of everything and be responsible for everything. And, and it was just, it was awful. And I think it sort of led to a lot of the dysfunction in my adult life. And I spent a lot of time trying to heal that and, and undo that. And it's, it's not easy, right. But it's, it's essential if we want to become healthy humans and have healthy relationships, right? Yeah, you know, and it's a process.

It's a process of getting to the point where you actually recognize the ways in which you were impacted by having to be so responsible so early. Now, you know, in my relationships with my parents, I'm very clear about, hey, I, you know, in my relationships with my parents, I'm very clear about, Hey, um, I'm the child, you're the parent. That sounds like something you should talk to your friend about or call a therapist. You know, like there, you know, again, when I was a

kid, when I was a younger adult, I didn't have those boundaries. I didn't know like, oh, I don't have to listen to them talk about this stuff for an hour and a half. It's like, oh, wait, I don't have to listen to this. It's like, I have the power of choice now. Now I can say, you know, it sounds like you're having some really tough problems. And I wonder if there is a group, if there is a therapist, or if there is a friend that you can call, because these are things I talk to my friends about. These are things that I talk to my peers about. And there is an age dynamic here where it's like, I don't know if I need to know this. Yeah. Yeah, that's fair. Fair enough. And it's really what you talked about, which is sort of understanding how to reclaim your own emotional sovereignty in the world and have agency over your relationships, whether you're not at the behest of somebody else's dysfunction or trauma or abuse or bad behavior. And, and it's, it's tough because, you know, you love these people, but they're often like a bull in the china shop and actually

very destructive in life in general and in your life. And so it's, it's a very tough thing to navigate. And I think, you know, your work, your books that, you know, the, the things that you've done really kind of help map out for people how to think differently about this, you know, the things that you've done really kind of help map out for people how to think differently about this, you know, the idea of, you know, set boundaries and find peace and drama free. And these are really things that seem almost out of reach in some ways for so many of us. But I think these are things that need to be healed if we want to actually feel good in our lives and have healthy relationships. And it's not something we learn anywhere. It's not something that's easy to understand. And we don't actually know how to communicate and we don't know how to express our feelings. We don't know how to be

open. It's not something we actually learn. So how do you sort of start to open up and express feelings and be better at communicating in our relationships in general. Often we think that the things we bring up about other people are like right or wrong. So it's like, should I be upset about this thing? Should this thing be a problem? And one of the things that can be really helpful for us is not to figure out if it's okay to have a problem, but just to allow yourself to have a problem with something. Just allowing yourself to have an issue with whatever that thing is, is a really big step towards being able to communicate more emotionally. And a very basic thing that I think is needed is we need to know what actual feelings mean. We need to know what anger is, sadness is, frustration, happiness,

joy. Many of us don't even use a lot of feeling words. One of the exercises that I'll have my clients do is name 20 feelings, write down a list of 20 feelings. And they usually get stuck around like seven to nine. It's like, yeah. So how can we talk to anybody else about our feelings when we only have three? You feel so, you feel so many different things. You feel confused. You feel upset. You feel left out. You feel like all of these things. So to be able to communicate your feelings, you have to be aware of what feelings are. So that is step one. Another exercise is to incorporate feelings into all of these thoughts you're having. When you're thinking about this person did this, that happened, this happened. How did I feel? How did I feel when that

happened? How did I feel when they said that? That is another important thing. Then as you're communicating with people, let's start using feeling words. When you yell at me, I feel frustrated. When you say you're going to do something and you don't do it, that makes me sad. Because what we typically do is we just talk to them, stop yelling, don't do it, that makes me sad. Because what we typically do is we just talk to them, stop yelling, don't do this, don't do that, don't do... How do you feel? It doesn't work very well, does it? It doesn't work very well. People aren't listening. But sometimes saying how you feel about something can give someone a chance to pause and consider your feelings, but you have to insert the feeling in there. And instead of, you know, stop yelling. If you continue to yell at me, I will.

I will not stop yelling. They can yell as much as they want to. What will you do if they continue to yell? What will you do if they continue to gaslight you? What will you do if they continue to tell you lies about something? What will you do? So much of what we think is important is really about controlling this other person. They have to acknowledge that they have an addiction. They have to figure out how to do things on their own. They have to apologize for their behaviors. They, they, they, they, they, they, they. Right. The only person with the issue in the moment is the person talking about the issue. So what will the person who has the issue

with this thing that's happening to them do about it? Yeah, that's so true. I mean, I think, you know, we put it all out on the other person, but we don't realize we have the agency to change our response, right? That's it. You know, Viktor Frankl, who wrote Man's Search for Meaning, was in a concentration camp, and he wrote about this sort of belief, this experience that he kind of got when he was there, which is that, you know, we have a choice all the time about our own internal experience, no matter what's happening outside of us. And so to externalize all the blame and all the responsibility for our emotional wellbeing out there is actually abdicating our own sovereignty and our own emotional wellbeing.

And so he said, you know, between stimulus and our own emotional well-being. And so he said, you know, between stimulus and response, there's a pause. And in that pause lies a choice. And that choice lies your freedom. And so, you know, the stimulus was the concentration camp. And he got to respond. Or the stimulus was the abuse from the Nazi, you know, guards who would beat them. You know, he got to choose how he responded to that,

whether he responded with love or hate or whatever. I remember, you know, I was in, when I was in medical school, I went to Nepal on a trip to do a public health expedition. And I got to meet this Tibetan doctor who was, you know, an older guy. And he was a Tibetan monk and a doctor. And he'd been in Chinese gulag for 22 years like in the and he's like gulag uh for being a tibetan monk and uh and i said what was that like and he said what was hard what was the hardest moment he says well the hardest moments were the moments i thought i would lose my compassion for my chinese jailers and i was like whoa okay like you know and so he was even in the midst of that for 22 years being in prison, being able to sort of meet it with love and compassion.

And that's like, you know, that's an obviously extreme, but most of us humans aren't like that. But it sort of speaks to the reality of the choices we do have. And, you know, Chinese gulags or concentration camps are extreme examples, but most of us don't have that. We have other things, but we don't have to actually surrender our emotional well-being or have it determined by another person's response to what we want or need or would like, right? We have to kind of deal with the reality and the truth. So that's a very liberating kind of idea.

And it sort of breaks that cycle of having to be the people pleaser and not telling the truth and being in the cycle of having these dysfunctional relationships that, you know, perpetuate the trauma that you had as a kid or that are ongoing family dynamics that perpetuate the lineage. You know, I believe each of us in our lifetime has a capacity to heal our family lineage by breaking that trauma cycle. How do you think about that? I just want to go back to what you said about meeting them with compassion, because I think about so many of us who have challenges with our parents and it's, you know, it's the anger, it's the why did they do that? And as we think about our parents' stories, you know, as much of it as we know, there is room for compassion in how they became who they are. Yeah. Yeah. There is room for compassion with many people,

you know, in our families that have certain behaviors that we can't manage for them. I think about, you know, people who have family members with undiagnosed mental health issues, how challenging it must be, you know, for us to see someone who has, you know, whatever the issue is, but for them to not get treatment and then have all of these life consequences. And we know that this is a mental health issue. You can't keep a job or keep relationships or, you know, function in society because of your, you know, manic disorder because of your, you know, but if you're not going to get treatment, if you're not going to get help, I can understand how hard that is to step into a space of doing something that is new and uncomfortable to acknowledge something like that

about yourself. So the compassion that we can have, even if, you know, we decide, hey, I can't be in this relationship or whatever it is, the passion, the compassion can really free us from, you know, the anger of it all or the frustration of it all. It really brings us back to even if we're in the relationships or not, you know, it brings us back to a place of peace because we know that other people, you know, it brings us back to a place of peace because we know that other people, you know, have things going on with them and we can have some, you know, empathies towards that. Yeah. I mean, the biggest trap for us, right, is believing we can change somebody else and needing someone else to change for us to be happy. And that's what you're talking about,

is sort of letting go of that concept because, you know, we can't, we can, we can meet the reality we have with truth. We can be honest, we can be direct, we can have clear communication, we can have clear boundaries, but that still doesn't mean someone's going to actually be changed. You know, I remember medical school, I learned the difference between someone who's neurotic and someone who's got a personality disorder, right? So someone who's like, you know, neuroses is someone who drives themselves crazy and thinks everybody else is fine. And some of the personality disorder, someone who thinks they're fine and drives everybody else crazy. And we have those people in our life and they don't think they have an issue. They won't look at themselves. And it's a very hard thing to fix. And it's

probably because of their early trials or traumas or their stresses that they went through. And it's something that, you know, at face value, it can seem super offensive and destructive and awful and they're wrong and they're bad and they're this and they're that. But if you kind of understand the sort of historical lineage of people's lives and the traumas that they experience and maybe the why of what's going on for them, it doesn't make it okay or you have to accept it

or even invite it into your life. But it changes your own emotional well-being. It's like someone said to me once that resentment is like taking poison and expecting someone else to die. And I think that's not good. So we do a lot of that in our lives. And it actually is a very destructive thing for our own health and well-being. So regardless of the relationships that you have, there are ways to heal them. There are ways to break lineages, there are ways to repair. There's all sorts of strategies and tools to do that, that you share in your books and your teachings and your Instagram account. But, but at the end of the day, you know, you know,

we may not be able to actually do that. And we have to find a way for us to not have that poison pill that we're taking that's hurting us. Yeah. You know, we hold on to this stuff with these people who have little desire to change any of this stuff. They have very little desire in some instances. And for the folks who are ready to change, even, you know, sometimes there's still resentment towards them for what they did not do. You know, sometimes people have, you know, problems in their relationships with a sibling or a parent when they're younger. And as an adult, you know, those problems no longer exist, but there is this still holding on to the past and you can't be in two places emotionally.

You can either be present or you can be in the past. But when you are both, there is resentment. Yeah, no, it's true. I mean, I remember, you know, my father, he died, you know, a few years ago. But, you know, my parents got divorced and he sort of checked out. Like he tried a little bit, but, you know, he wouldn't call. He didn't really make time to come visit. I mean, my mother was, you know, obviously participating in some of the reasons why, why he couldn't, but he, you know, he didn't really show up and it was just so hurtful to me. And, you know, I finally, as an adult had a chance

to sort of sit and share with him my experience and what it was like and to have him hear it. And then, you know, he began to share his own childhood and his father and his grandfather. And I was like, whoa, you know, now I understand why you behave this way. It's not, doesn't make it right. But, you know, you were a victim. And then, you know, I became a victim as a kid. But we don't have to stay being in that victim role. And so I began, you know, even though he didn't really change, I was able to kind more my own healing around how I held it all.

And, and, and, and sort of have that compassion for, for the little boy that was him that had to leave home at 13 years old. So that, that really kind of is a process that, you know, we don't learn how to do. And I think, you know, your work is so important, Andrew, because it really helps us to, to kind of think about practically how we start to do this for ourselves and get into a place where, you know, we have peace where we don't have tons of drama in our life and relationships. I mean, wouldn't that be amazing? You know, I think it would be so amazing if we all had that. And it would, you know, there's just so much psychological trauma that gets recapitulated from generation to generation.

And what you're talking about are tools and practices to break that cycle. Change is really scary. I think about when people can't change what might be happening with them. I've heard some folks share stories of how their changes actually changed other people. And that's what happens when we set boundaries. I've known people to start saying I love you to their parents who never said it. And eventually the parents sort of catch on and they start saying, OK, I love you. Right. Or hugging them or, you know, just doing these different things that we can impact change in some ways, even if this person is not initiating it on their own. Right. So it's it may not be, oh, my gosh, they're going to initiate it every time.

But you'll see sometimes with grandparents in particular, they're very different than how they were with their children. And so, you know, it's like, oh my gosh, when I was a kid, I couldn't sit on this couch. I couldn't do this thing. And now, you know, my mom is letting these kids do this and that. And, you know, so, so there is some recognition within them that, oh, maybe there is a softer way to be. Perhaps there is a different way to exist. So even sometimes when people can't change with us, they're capable with changing with our siblings. They're capable of changing with their grandchildren, with other folks in the family. So maybe it's not the relationship with us that can improve, but maybe they're at least able to learn some lessons from us to improve in other

relationships. Yeah. So it's a way to way of sort of like almost like passive healing. You just, by being different, they get to witness how you're different and then they can respond differently to you. And then maybe even learn some of different ways of being in general with relationships. Absolutely. Yeah. So, so, you know, one of the challenges I think often occurs for people as, you know, as a parent, you know, I had two kids and I actually was a single father. I mean, there was no instruction manual, right? There was no, here's how you do it. Here's how you keep your kids safe emotionally. Here's how you relate to them. Here's how you talk to them. Here's what to do when things go wrong. Here's, you know, how to celebrate them when things are good. Like we just don't get a roadmap. And so we often kind

of repeat these patterns from our childhood that, that, uh, get recapitulated on our kids, but we don't have to do that. Right. So how do we, what are the mistakes that, that, that parents make, uh, when their kids are young and how do we break those cycles? Parents often shield their kids from discomfort by giving them stuff instead of being with them. I think we try to control their outcomes instead of allowing them to experience consequences. With parenting, I think there is some, we want them to be assertive, but not with us. We want them to be happy, but we want to determine exactly what that happiness is. The happiness is only if you go to this college.

Right, right, right. Yeah. So, you know, we have to be a little more flexible and allowing little humans to become adult humans and allowing those adult humans to just human, right? Different than how we did it. And as I stated, you know, when you're younger, so much of who you are is controlled by your environment. Then when you turn 18, there's a level of autonomy that you're able to have in your life. And, you know, for some folks, you can sort of see the seeds of, you know, your parenting and for others, it's like, what is this thing? And it's like, you know, this was brewing. Perhaps these are things that you could not control that this person, you know, wants to experience or, you know, they want to exist in a certain way. And, you know,

how can we lovingly care and support and have a relationship with a person who is becoming themselves is really the, you know, the biggest question of parenting. How do I uniquely love this individual who is becoming more of themselves? Yeah. Powerful. Any last thoughts for people who are listening to this and going, yeah, this is great. Cause I, I definitely, you know, don't have good boundaries. I definitely have a lot of drama in my life. I definitely have struggled with my parents or with my adult kids. You know, where do I start? I would say start in the biggest area that you're having the boundary issue. I know people always say start small. Well, the small stuff is not the big stuff.

You know, you want to start with the thing that's keeping you up at night. You want to start with those hardest relationships. And it is a continuous practice. I think often we want to kind of set a boundary and then like, okay, I did it. That's it. And it's like, well, that was just the first thing. You'll have to repeat it. You may have to issue a consequence, but you will have to change the way you respond to this person. If you want someone to do something different, you have to be different. It's not their boundary, it's your boundary. You have to advocate for it. You have to be serious about it. And often when we have to do that, we get so mad at this other person. How dare you make me set this boundary? How dare you make me tell you no, when in actuality, they're giving you a gift. They're

giving you the gift of courage. They're giving you the gift of self-advocacy. They're giving you the gift of being comfortable in who you are. So it is a gift to be able to say to someone, no, it's a gift to be able to say, hey, here's what I want in this situation. Or, you know, hey, this thing has been bothering me because I'm a therapist. You know, I do think therapy is a really important practice. But I go to therapy, right? And I see the power of having a person listen to you uninterrupted for, you know, 50 minutes or whatever it is in a way that the other humans in our life do not listen to us. Most of the time in our, you know, in our relationships with our friends or family members, there's a back and forth that's occurring with a therapist. You're sitting there,

you're getting insight. So I think sometimes when things aren't working in our lives, we are not the problem. We are not the person to maybe correct the issue. Like we've been trying, like you've been trying, you've been working on this thing by yourself all these years, and you haven't gotten very far. Perhaps there is a professional to help you, which we're willing to do in so many other areas of life. If we can't figure out our plumbing issue, we call the plumber. If we can't figure out, oh my gosh, I've been coughing a week, we go to the doctor and we need to do that with our mental health as well. We need to go to that next level and seek some professional help. Yeah. Well, thank you. This has been such

a great conversation and your work is so important. I think everybody, we're going to put in the show notes, her Instagram page, which was a fabulous treasure trove of insights and little useful tips. Her website, Nedratawab, N-E-D-R-A-T-A-W-W-A-B.com, is also wonderful. She's got family quizzes, relationship quizzes, boundaries quiz. And you have a beautiful quote on there, which is, I think, a beautiful spot to end, which is, End the struggle, speak up for what you need, and experience the freedom of being truly yourself. Because at the end of the day, it's about getting free and emotionally free for ourselves, emotionally free in our relationships. And your books are just tremendous. So I love the title of your latest book, Drama Free,

A Guide to Managing Unhealthy Family Relationships. And I think probably everybody on the planet needs one copy of that book. So thank you so much for your work. Those of you who love this podcast, please share it with your friends and family on social media. I'm sure everybody needs to hear this. Leave a comment, have you figured out how to navigate unhealthy and painful family relationships or other relationships and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and we'll see you next time on the doctor's pharmacy hey everybody it's dr hyman thanks for tuning into the doctor's pharmacy i hope you're loving this podcast it's one of my favorite things to do and introduce to you all the experts that i know

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