The Dr. Hyman Show - How Protein Reduces Cravings, Supports Muscle, And Promotes Health

Episode Date: January 30, 2023

This episode is brought to you by InsideTracker, Mitopure, and Pique. Many people are confused about how much protein they should be eating and where to get it. Adequate protein is vital in building muscle mass, an essential component of maintaining a healthy weight. It’s also a key factor in reducing the risk of chronic disease, which improves our healthspan and longevity. Research shows that higher protein intake is correlated to better body composition, insulin control, satiation, and more. In today’s episode, I talk with Dr. Gabrielle Lyon, Dr. David Heber, and Dr. Frank Lipman about why it’s necessary to get adequate protein in your diet every day and how to do that, whether you’re a meat-eater or not. Dr. Gabrielle Lyon is an integrative physician who completed her fellowship in nutritional sciences and geriatrics at Washington University, St. Louis. She is board certified in family medicine and completed her undergraduate work in human nutrition vitamin and mineral metabolism. Dr. Lyon works closely with current and retired Special Operations military operators as a part of the Task Force Dagger Foundation. Dr. Heber is the founding director of the UCLA Center for Human Nutrition, a professor of medicine and public health, and the founding chief of the Division of Clinical Nutrition in UCLA’s Department of Medicine. Dr. Heber also directs the National Cancer Institute-funded clinical nutrition research unit and the National Institute of Health’s nutrition and obesity training grants at UCLA. Dr. Frank Lipman is recognized as a vocal pioneer of integrative and Functional Medicine (or what he calls “good medicine”). Dr. Lipman is the founder of Eleven Eleven Wellness Center and the Chief Medical Officer at The Well. He is a sought-after international speaker and the bestselling author of six books—How to Be Well, The New Health Rules, Young and Slim for Life, Revive, and Total Renewal—and his newest book, The New Rules of Aging Well: A Simple Program for Immune Resilience, Strength, and Vitality.⁣ This episode is brought to you by InsideTracker, Mitopure, and Pique.  Right now InsideTracker is offering my community 20% off at insidetracker.com/drhyman. Get 10% off Mitopure at timelinenutrition.com/drhyman and use code DRHYMAN10 at checkout. Right now you can take advantage of Pique's limited-time special offer on your first month's supply of their Sun Goddess Matcha. Just head over to piquelife.com/farmacy for 15% off plus free shipping on your first month’s supply. Full-length episodes of these interviews can be found here: Dr. Gabrielle Lyon Dr. David Heber Dr. Frank Lipman Dr. Gabrielle Lyon

Coming up on this episode of The Doctor's Pharmacy. The first meal of the day, whenever you have it, whether you're having it at 8 in the morning or 11 or noon, is the most important meal. That is the primary meal to get dietary protein correct. Hey everyone, it's Dr. Mark. Now something I get more and more excited about every year is personalized medicine. Now when I began practicing functional medicine over 20 years ago, it was clear to me we have to look at how unique each body is. Now, with technology advancing in amazing ways, we can truly take that concept to the next level. Like one of the tools that I recently discovered that can help us all do this from home is InsideTracker. Founded in 2009 by top scientists

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which you can get in a capsule powder or protein blend at timelinenutrition.com forward slash Dr. Hyman. That's D-R-H-Y-M-A-N. That's T-I-M-E-L-I-N-E. forward slash Dr. Hyman. That's D-R-H-Y-M-A-N. That's T-I-M-E-L-I-N-E.com slash Dr. Hyman, D-R-H-Y-M-A-N, and use the code DrHyman10. And now let's get back to this episode of The Doctor's Pharmacy. Hi, this is Lauren Fee and one of the producers of The Doctor's Pharmacy podcast. Protein plays an essential role in our health, but many people are not consuming enough of it for healthy muscle, metabolism, satiety, and more. Whether you're a meat eater or vegetarian,

it's vital to optimize your protein intake and diversify protein sources. In today's episode, we feature four conversations from the doctor's pharmacy on why protein is so important and how to get enough of it. Dr. Hyman speaks with Dr. Gabrielle Lyon on the amount of protein needed, with Dr. David Herber who offers a different perspective for those who eat vegetarian or vegan diets, with Dr. Frank Lipman on protein powders, and again with Dr. Gabrielle Lyon on why protein is so important in our diets. Let's jump in. There are certain amino acids that are found in higher concentrations in animal protein that are critical for activating muscle synthesis. In order to start the process of building muscle, you need to eat a certain amount. And I think what I've understood is about two and a half grams of leucine per meal to actually activate the switch to turn on muscle synthesis.

Yeah. So if you don't eat that, it tends to turn into just a source of calories, which is terrible, but it's not building muscle. It's not building muscle. Right. That is accurate. So what you're talking about is something called... And by the way, what you're saying is in order to get that much leucine, you need to eat

six cups of quinoa or four ounces of chicken. Yes. Three ounces of chicken. Yes. It's just not feasible if you are going to try to do it through a whole food based way in which you could do it. Could you do it through soy and other plant isolates? You can. I have concerns over plant isolates over a long period of time. Again, I have no... So what you're saying, what you mean in English is if you're eating processed protein powders that come from plants, from pea and soy... Doesn't exist in nature. And they're jacked up often too. Yeah. They just don't exist in nature. And over the long term, that concerns me. And again,

I just want to say that I'm not against anyone who wants to be vegan or vegetarian. It's completely personal choice, but you can't say that it's healthier for you. And when we are talking about building muscle, the key amino acid really, as you had mentioned earlier, is leucine. And leucine is that branch chain amino acid that is high in things like whey protein and animal. So for every 30 grams or four, a little over four ounces of beef or something like that, you'll get 30 grams of leucine or chicken. 30 grams of protein, not leucine. 30 grams of protein. Yes, pardon me. 30 grams of protein, you'll get two and a half grams of leucine, which really works as a switch, especially midlife. When you're younger, you could get away with a little bit less protein, you know, but when

you are older, I like to think of a practical application of 30 grams of dietary protein, 30 grams, meaning a little over four ounces to get a robust leucine hit. So what happens with leucine? Yeah. So, so just to clarify a little bit, just before you jump into that, to clarify what you're saying is if you want to be vegan, you can do it, but you need, you need to supplement the amino acids either as an amino acid supplement or with protein powders that are jacked up with extra branched amino acids, that you can't just do it with plants alone and eat the quantity of food that's going to require you to do to actually build the muscle. Is that accurate? It would be very difficult. That is

accurate. And it would be very difficult. I mean, I can't eat six cups of quinoa. I mean, I don't know about you. Yeah. And then if we translate that over to a younger person, or even two cups of beans, right? We do a real disservice to say younger individuals when we take away or say that animal-based products are unhealthy. I think that that, you know, when we think about the people that have lower appetites, like an older population, again, I'm a geriatrician by training, they're not eating a lot. So if we say, okay, you're not eating a lot, but I really want you to go vegan or vegetarian, but you really need to consume dietary protein to protect against sarcopenia, which is loss of muscle mass and function, and also to protect your skeletal

muscle, I think we really run into problems. Yeah. So finish what you're saying about sort of the amount of protein. The amount of protein. Really thinking about the overall protein content of your diet is important. Number one, if we were thinking about the hierarchy, how much are you getting in a 24-hour period? The next most important aspect of understanding dietary protein is really thinking about as a meal threshold. So protein as it relates to a meal threshold amount. And this was done- Which means how much you need to eat at each meal. Exactly. And this was- Just trying to speak English here, because I don't think everyone's as smart as you. Oh, come on. You're a listener as far as savvy. They know. I mean, you guys know. Give me a break.

How much protein you need per meal. And actually, this discovery was out of Don Lehman's lab where he discovered this amino acid. Well, one of his graduate students, Tracy Anthony, really, they discovered that leucine was required in a meal amount, which is an amazing contribution to science. So what does that mean for the listener? That means in order to maintain healthy skeletal muscle, you do want to create a flux. You do want to be able to turn it over. You do want to be able to stimulate this complex within the muscle called mTOR. And mTOR is mechanistic target of rapamycin that is stimulated by insulin. It's stimulated by amino acids. It can be stimulated

by exercise. And really, leucine is the primary driver for stimulating mTOR. And then subsequently, assuming you have all the amino acids, you will be able to lay down new tissue, new protein, generate new proteins. Yeah. So this is, you just sort of dipped into something that's really important, which is a couple of things I want to get back to. One is how much protein you need to eat per meal. Does it matter when you eat it? Can you eat all your daily protein requirements in one meal? Do you need to spread out through the day? And how does that work? So let's kind of tackle that. And then we're going to come back to mTOR because that just opens up a whole can of worms about aging. what we land on with this, because you and I have talked about this many times. How you ingest dietary protein is really dependent on a couple things. Number one, your goals. Number two, your age. And number three, your activity. Okay. When I think about dietary protein, and this is what I have seen in the literature, this is what I've seen from, again, my longtime mentor, we collaborate and put together these protocols. Is the first meal of the day, whenever you have it, is the most important. Whether you're having it at eight in the morning or 11 or noon, the first meal after

an overnight fast, when you are in a, quote, catabolic, which means a breaking down state, is the most important meal. That is the primary meal to get dietary protein correct, no matter what your goals are. Again, this is my opinion that, and this is what we've seen in some of the studies and our work together, Don's and mine work together, is that first meal of the day is most important. The reason is you're coming off of an overnight fast. Your skeletal muscle, which again, skeletal muscle is the voluntary muscle control, like, you know, are you jacked and tan, what your biceps are, that meal and hitting a minimum of 30 grams of protein, actually upward between 30 to 50 grams, which seems like a lot,

but can be very valuable because not only do you optimize for muscle protein synthesis, because as Mark, as you had mentioned before, it either turns on or it doesn't. But really, you want to turn it on and you probably want to max out the system. And to max out the system, you want to push that leucine number threshold up a little bit higher. So between 30 and 50 grams, that first meal of the day is most valuable. And that's also the meal I tend to have a lower carbohydrate amount in because I really

want to focus on dietary protein. Again, can you add carbohydrates? You can if you're training. If it's within your macronutrients range, you totally can. So this totally explains why 93% of Americans are in poor metabolic health because the average breakfast in America is a disaster, right? French toast, pancakes, toast, cereal, bagels, muffins. I mean, the sugared coffees people have. I mean, I think people are using a ton of oat milk these days and people don't realize that. It's called oat juice. I refuse to call almond milk, almond milk. It has to be almond juice. You have

to call it. And it's so high. I mean, some of them are better in terms of their carbohydrate load, but it's like, you know, an old latte, you think I'm doing something healthy, but actually you're just, you're just taking a big load of sugar. And so I think that's a big disaster. We don't have a typically highprotein breakfast in America. You might have steak and eggs and bacon if you're a cowboy, but it's pretty unusual to be eating that. And eggs have gotten a bad rap, so people are like, oh, I should stay away from eggs. This is another really good point that you bring up is that it's also – so the dietary protein to stimulate muscle, but also the subsequent nutritive effects of the amino acids. Well, dietary protein also will decrease hunger.

And there's been MRI studies that will show that those individuals that have a higher protein breakfast are much less likely to crave later on in the day and or go to the high satiety, highly palatable foods like you had mentioned for breakfast, like the French toast and the donuts later on in the three o'clock afternoon when everyone is going for it. Right. So basically it helps regulate your appetite. It builds muscle. It prevents you laying down fat.

I mean, it helps with your metabolism just by the sheer fact of, you know, there's a thermogenic effect of protein. Yeah, we didn't talk about that. The thermic effect of protein really, and I've thought a lot about this because it's very variable in the literature. And I believe it's variable because when people are under consuming protein, they don't hit enough protein to stimulate muscle protein synthesis. When you hit enough protein to stimulate muscle protein synthesis, that's where you get that real thermic effect of food, where it actually takes energy. Yeah.

So this is a really important concept. So basically, some foods take more energy to metabolize. And or utilize, right? And you have to process protein and it actually uses more energy. I wrote about this in Ultra Metabolism like almost 20 years ago. And I can't believe it's been that long, but yes. Yeah. And that was so clear to me that if you eat protein, you actually get this thermic effect, which is kind of like a bonus. You could literally lose pounds and pounds and pounds simply by choosing more protein calories than carbohydrate calories. And you know, what's really interesting is that, and this is

Steven Simpson's work, and that's the protein leverage hypothesis. And basically, what he reported that was reducing protein from 18 to 13% of the diet, which is not a huge, so you're talking just a few percentage increase from 18 to 13%, of the diet, which is not a huge, so you're talking just a few percentage increase from 18 to 13%, that this can lead to a 10% increase in overall calorie consumption. The body will drive to eat dietary protein. There is a driver because we need it. We must, again, it's essential. Carbohydrates are not essential. Fat, there's some fatty acids that are essential. But protein is arguably the most important macronutrient for aging and longevity and muscle health.

Well, so just to kind of summarize, basically quality matters. You need to have either jacked up, processed vegan protein powders to meet the needs, particularly as you age with with extra leucine, which has problems in and of itself when you're eating a processed food, and who knows what that's going to do to us. Two, you need to make sure you have plenty of protein in the morning after your overnight fast. Three, it's good to spread your protein out throughout the day. And four, we need more protein than we thought, probably like 1.2 to 2 grams per kilo. So like for the average person, you say 30 to 50 grams. What is that?

That's like three, four ounces of chicken, six ounces, eight ounces of steak. Yeah. So for one gram or one ounce, there's about seven grams of protein. So for example- Right. So if you want 50, you need like seven or whatever, right? Yeah. So seven.

Yes. So exactly. And this is where, you know, again, you can use yogurt, you can use eggs, you can use whey protein. Can you use some plant-based sources as long as you're having a higher quality protein? You can. But again, it's just making sure that you're meeting that amino acid threshold. And it's just much easier to do with animal products.

Could you do it from a whole food vegan diet? Probably just the amount of food that you would consume. It would require a lot of activity. Hey everybody, it's Dr. Mark. I've recently found a new drink that fits into my vegan diet. And it's honestly something I always look forward to when I need a nourishing pick-me-up. It's Sun Goddess Matcha Green Tea from Peak. It's the best tasting, smoothest mixing matcha I ever tried. I'm sure you heard me talk a lot about using food as medicine, and matcha is a great example of this. It's full of polyphenols, which are essentially powerful plant chemicals that are good for your gut bugs.

They're great for detoxification, for cancer prevention, and so many great antioxidants that support better aging, a balanced blood sugar, digestion, and a good immune system. I love blending the Sun Goddess Matcha powder with some hemp or oat milk into a creamy latte as part of my morning ritual. But I've also used it in my recipes like matcha poppy bread or various smoothies and it works great every time. It's also the only matcha that's 100% organic, ceremonial grade, and quadruple toxin screen for purity. Matcha makes a great alternative to coffee because it provides sustained clean

energy without the jitters. L-theanine is a powerful amino acid in matcha that helps you feel calm, focused, and clear so you get a boost without the crash. Peak Sun Goddess Matcha actually contains more theanine and chlorophyll because they shade their matcha plants 35% longer than other brands. I really do feel awake and focused and balanced after enjoying my matcha every morning. Right now, you can take advantage of their limited time special offer on your first month's supply of Peak Sun Goddess Matcha. Just head over to peaklife.com forward slash pharmacist. That's P-I-Q-U-E-L-i-f-e.com slash pharmacy f-a-r-m-a-c-y for 15 off and free shipping on your first month supply you won't find a better deal anywhere now let's get back to this week's episode of the doctor's pharmacy there's just a debate about

protein sure in in this in this sort of community now we because if you look at the vegan community they say, well, you don't need that much protein. We're over-proteined. And that plant protein is good enough and that you should really eat beans and grains and that's all you need. And there's others that are saying, no, no, you need more protein. Some scientists are now suggesting we need even more than we thought we need that we're getting in America. And that especially as we age, it's more important. And that we even need protein from animals because the vegetable protein isn't having the right balance of amino acids to actually synthesize protein.

So can you help us through that debate? Because I think everybody's confused. Even I'm confused. Like, I'm like, do I want to eat 1.6 or 1.8 grams per kilo of protein, or do I want to have 0.8, or what do I want to have? Okay, so let's go through that. So first of all, the first mistake ends up with what's called the NHANES survey of the US Department of Agriculture. So they'll look at the total protein per day that someone's taking in

and they'll say, oh, it's perfectly adequate. Actually, it turns out to be sort of at the lower limit of adequacy, but it's the distribution that's terrible. People eat very little protein at breakfast, a little more at lunch and a huge amount at dinner, some of which is not metabolized. It's excreted. It's deaminated and excreted. So let me ask you before you draw on to that. So is it true that you need like about 30 grams of protein per meal in order to create protein synthesis? If you eat less than that, it's just run as calories. And if you eat more than that, you don't use it. Yeah, the studies at McMaster University, we don't have a lot of data on this yet, but in 18-year-old kids who exercise for 45 minutes, they take protein within 30 minutes

to an hour after exercise. They need a minimum of 20 grams to get maximum protein synthesis. Then it's a flat plateau. So at 30, you're certainly safe. Larger amounts may help with satiety, but they don't increase the protein synthetic rate anymore. Now, what we haven't done

is we haven't done football players. We haven't done people with huge amounts of protein. We haven't done little people who don't increase the protein synthetic rate anymore. Now, what we haven't done is we haven't done football players. We haven't done people with huge amounts of protein. We haven't done little people who don't need as much protein. So in my view, the protein requirement is based on your body's lean body mass, which also determines how many calories you burn at rest. So if I know that a woman has 100 pounds of lean, she burns 1,400 calories. Her husband with 150 pounds of lean burns 2,100 calories. Put them both on the same diet, the husband loses weight and the wife does not. He turns to her and says, you know,

honey, your problem is you don't have any willpower. And the real problem is she has less resting metabolism. And so it's really hard to lose weight when you're only burning a thousand calories. That's why exercise is so much more important for women who have a low metabolism. That 200 or 300 calories is a huge percentage for that woman who's trying to lose weight. So the way the misimpression came up is that part of the adaptation to starvation is that when you lose protein in your body, you stop turning it over. So you'll notice a lot of vegans and vegetarians have reduced lean body mass. Yes, I've seen that.

Look at the body type of Bill Clinton since he's become a vegetarian. So I think the thing about protein is I am a fan of plant protein and you can combine plant proteins to make a complete protein, but you have to do it carefully. What do you mean? Beans and grains? Yeah. Oh, there's beans and grains, nuts and nuts and grains as well. But you need a scientist somewhere in the mix to kind of come up with what is the proper complementarity. And there is a status that's used called PD-CAS. It's a digestibility index in humans, not in animals. So we all in medical school learn biological value.

Wait, I just want to stop you there for a minute and go back because you're talking about so many great things. I don't want to miss these points. You basically said something that was pretty provocative, which is vegans have lower body muscle mass. And that is because they're eating grains and beans. They're getting protein. But not the right mix and not at the right times. Is it because they're not timing it right? Or is it because they're not eating enough? It may be their choices. We had a vegan lasagna the other day for our Sunday conference. Yes, unfortunately. It was a small piece of- White flour and cheese

and a couple of peppers. Now that I wouldn't call a balanced meal, okay? But it's definitely vegan. So that's what I'm saying. So people will have just pasta or just in their attempt to avoid these things. So I think we have to identify the plant-based proteins that are so important. And I know that soy is a four-letter word to a lot of people, but it's got the best combination of amino acids of any plant protein. Now you can take quinoa and hemp and pea protein and sesame protein and mix them together in the right way to get a very good protein mix. And they'll have enough leucine, which is that amino acid you need mostly for meat that's in higher amounts in meat that's needed for building muscle, right? That's correct.

But, you know, it's not deficient in it. It's a limiting ingredient. So you can build muscle on soy protein. You know, if you look at... So do you have to add leucine to these plant proteins? You can. You can. Some people, you know, will fortify with methionine or other amino acids that are limiting.

That can be done. Or you can mix another protein. I'm not a big fan of industrial dairy farms, as you're not also. But whey protein, which was a side product of making cheese, has become all the rage among muscle builders because it's a hydrolysate and it's rapidly absorbed within 30 minutes into the body. So you can mix whey and soy together and get kind of the best of both worlds. But then you're eating animal protein. But then you're eating animal protein and not something I'm in favor of.

So, you know, we have all these new technological things that are coming up and who knows, we may be able to come up with a way that we can improve the quality of soy protein. So you think vegans can actually have adequate muscle mass by combining the right proteins and getting muscles in this. But are they going to have to eat like three cups of beans to get 30 grams of protein?

Well, you know, yeah, the calories may be higher. So if you take rice and beans, yeah, the same amount of protein in a cup of rice and a cup of beans versus a cup of soy, you're looking at 250 calories maybe against 650. So there's a difference. The issue is, you know is when you do that, you're eating a lot of carbohydrates.

Right. And so if you're insulin resistant and you're eating enough grains and beans to actually meet your protein requirements, you're getting also this byproduct of carbs. Even if they're whole, they still have a higher glycemic index than protein. That's correct.

And if you don't eat enough protein, you will eat the balance as carbohydrate and fat. So one of the problems with a low protein diet is it keeps you, you're more hungry. It's the old joke about going to the Chinese restaurant and being hungry to the Chinese American restaurant and being hungry two hours later, right? Right. So it's because the high carb, high fat diet doesn't have the satiety effect of protein. So protein is the most satiating macronutrient. I thought it was fat. No, fat does have some satiation, but not for, protein is far more satiating than fat.

Fat in the lower intestine is actually a product from Unilever called Fabulous, which is an oat emulsion that ends up in the lower intestine in the ileum and causes some fullness. If you take enough of it, you really get nauseated. But it doesn't, you know, it slowly moves out of the stomach, you know, when you have a high fat meal. I just remember from school, I learned that, you know, fat for satiety. That was like the message.

No, as a matter of fact, it's not. It's actually the hidden fat and hidden sugar and salt are the three problems I could identify in the American diet right now in many of the processed foods you're talking about that people just don't know about. Okay. So we'll come back to the fat, because I want to dig into that, because another air controversy. But the protein issue is sort of trying to get to the bottom line here,

which is, do we need animal protein or not? And can vegetable protein be okay, or is it too high glycemic? And how do we deal with that? No, no, I think vegetable protein is fine, but I think we need to have some products now, like tofu, that will concentrate the protein compartment. Yeah, so tempeh and tofu are highly protein, low-carb foods.

Exactly, great foods and a great choice. And I think you can build... Now remember, if you're building muscle, you've also got to exercise, so the protein doesn't do it by itself. Where the misimpression came from was in 1973, the late Vernon Young, who's a great nutrition authority, took some medical students to the cafeteria at MIT and fed them egg white. And he came up that they were in positive nitrogen balance

at 0.8 grams per kilogram body weight. I see. Or actually 0.6. So everybody at 0.8, everybody was in positive balance. At 0.6, they were at zero balance. So now all the ministries of health around the world use 0.8 grams per kilogram body weight. That's right.

That's where it came from, right? That's where it came from, 1973. So in 1989, they did endurance athletes. And guess what? It was 1.0. Then in 1992, they did weightlifters and it was 2.5 grams per kilogram body weight. Because body weight could have a different composition of fat versus muscle. The more muscle you have, the more protein you need. And that's where I came up with this idea of matching the body protein with the protein in the diet. Now, the opposite also happens. So I put you on a zero protein diet, your body will start to conserve its protein mass and you'll end up with a smaller body mass, but a lower rate of turnover of protein. It's kind of a first order thing. It's like that,

you know, flask of colored liquid that you learned about in chemistry. The amount of liquid determines the rate at which it flows out of the flask. So that's where the protein comes in. I'm a huge believer in protein. 30 grams per meal, three to four times a day, depending. And even if you're going to have after dinner eating, binge eating, and 25% of obese people have protein after dinner. And obviously, low-fat protein or plant protein.

Think about it. If you're doing beans, that's eight cups of beans or nine cups of beans a day. I know, I know. So I mean, that's where I sort of struggle with it. Right, right. Whereas you can get four to six ounces of chicken or fish. And that, for me- Well, that's where I get into the soy protein.

And I know we had a little bit of discussion about isolated soy protein, but let's find out what is the best, healthiest way to do that. But you've got to separate the protein compartment from the starches. Because in ancient times, we worked so many hours in the fields. We needed those carbohydrates for energy. But as you said, the USDA is six to eight servings of carbs on the bottom. I call it a prescription for obesity. In 1997, I put my own pyramid together at UCLA and the public health people told me, oh, people are going to starve

on this because there's nothing but fruits and vegetables at the bottom. And I said, look, starvation is not our major problem in the United States today. It's overweight and obesity. So I think by putting in seven servings a day of colorful fruits and vegetables from seven different color groups, you get 500 calories per day. You get your protein, you know, let's say it's 100 grams, that's 400 calories, or you get 150, 600 calories. So you have plenty of room here to add in some carbs and have flavorful food and cook beautiful food, but the basic building blocks just need to be there. This is probably the most complicated issue as we get older. How much? Because I agree 100%. I do think we need to increase animal protein, but as you get older, you actually need to increase protein.

So how do you increase plant proteins, if possible, without increasing too much carbohydrates? Because you want to still keep your carbohydrates down. So the way I get around it, I actually have a protein shake, and I use pea protein, and I put collagen in. Because collagen actually has the amino acid profile. It doesn't have as much leucine and methionine. So it's less of a problem than, you know, I won't have as much steak.

It's not that I don't have steak. Tonight we're having steak. It's not that I don't have animal protein, but I have cut it back a bit and maybe eat a little bit more fish and a little bit – I have collagen a lot of the time. I have collagen almost every day. So I think that is a fine balance, and it's not – there's no simple answer here. And I don't – I think it's a big problem not having enough protein as one gets older. But it also seems to be a problem of eating too much animal protein as one gets older.

For sure. That's a defined, that's the trickiest part. And what's enough? We have these giant steaks and big hunks of meat, and what we really need is about 30 grams to stimulate muscle synthesis, which is about the size of your palm. Now, if you're Shaquille O'Neal, it's a bigger piece. If you're five years old, it's a smaller piece, right? So you can use your own body as a sort of a measure of how much protein you need. But I think that's a very simple...

Right. And that's why your pegan diet, I think, is brilliant. I love that concept. I think that sums it up. Yeah, exactly. Actually, it's funny you mentioned the pea protein because I created something called the pegan shake, which is essentially pea protein, pumpkin seed protein, and collagen, grass-fed collagen protein. So it's exactly what you're talking about. Right. And that's what I do. I think that's a way of getting around it, to be quite honest. So that's brilliant. Yeah. Fantastic. What is protein anyway? Like we know fat, we know carbohydrates. Protein is the black sheep of the macronutrient family. Yeah. That is all we need to know.

So neglected, right? Everybody's talking about carbs and fat. Who's talking about protein? Protein. We've been talking about it for years. It is absolutely the black sheep. It is very emotional for people because it has a face. Nobody argues that excess carbohydrates are bad.

We thought that fat was bad and now we kind of have a new understanding and people are still kind of weighing in on protein. It is very much the black sheep. You asked me what it is. It is essential for the building blocks of everything, skin, neurotransmitters, hormones. It is ultimately what life is made of. It is the baseline fundamentals. And not only that, it is- And by the way, all your genes do, you have 20,000 genes, all they do is make protein. Right. And they make protein out of the building blocks of protein that you eat.

Correct. And dietary protein is key to getting all of those amino acids. And anyone, you can open up a textbook and look at all the amino acids. They all have different things. I will point out that if you look at the label of any nutritional supplement, it will have a breakdown of carbohydrates, how much fiber, how much sugar, fat. It will have a breakdown of saturated fat, all the other fats. And then you get to protein. And it just has one little line, protein. But not all protein is created equal.

You have animal protein and you have plant protein, all of which are made up of different amounts of amino acids, which affect your body differently. Okay, well, you just brought this up, so we're going to go there. I was going to get into a little bit later, but the issue is what kind of protein and how much protein? Because one, there is an argument that we are eating too much meat in the world, that it's causing climate change, that it's destroying natural habitats, destroying soil, depleting our water supplies our water supplies we should talk about that yeah we're going to talk okay good and and

that we should all be eating more plant protein and more rice and beans we tried that and you know what that was called the food guide pyramid yeah well we ate a lot of carbohydrates but i don't know if we if eating- Rice and beans. But we weren't eating rice and beans. We were eating bread and potatoes and chips and, I mean, sugar. Okay. But even if you swap it out and the carbohydrate load is in excess, right? So when we look at what we really need, we probably need between 70 and 80 grams of carbohydrates. And the body can make all of that

from protein. That's it. That's it. Yeah, right. But. So let's just get back to this. So we do need protein, and also the studies were interesting, even the studies that show that maybe

excess protein when you're younger makes you sick, it turns out even those studies show that when you're older you actually need more protein. You do. And I just was reading about athletes eating maybe between 1.6 to 2.4 grams of protein, which is a lot of protein per kilo. And so we're getting all these mixed messages. You know, one, we should be eating less meat, eating more plant proteins.

Or two, we should be eating more protein as we age so we're in this sort of incredible conflicted confusing environment around protein so what should we be eating how much should we be eating and what type should we be eating okay this is a of no tall order that we need to discuss this is a big this is what people want to know. Let's take one step back. The information overload comes from kind of the mouse with the microphone. So you have small groups of individuals that are making a lot of noise. You mean the computer mouse? You have extreme groups. So you have anti-animal groups.

You have PETA. You have vegan groups, vegetarian groups have anti-animal groups. You have PETA. You have vegan groups, vegetarian groups that are just in one aspect making a lot of claims, putting a lot of money. I think PETA spent $15 million on advertising. Then you have big cereal companies, Kellogg's. I think that was around a billion dollars in advertising. So you have these groups that are regulated by the FTC, and then on the other side, you have the egg council and the cattlemen and the farmers, or who are under the guise of the USDA.

So you have these two kind of regulating bodies and two opposing groups, one which has much more money than say the dairy Council or the Egg Council, that in and of itself skews the conversation. And that is something really important to be aware of. We're getting a lot of propaganda, but not a lot of science, is what you're saying. Well, we have big pharma. We have these groups that are allowed to say certain things that maybe this will lower cholesterol, eat oats, it will lower cholesterol. It will have these certain health benefits.

And then you've got egg, dairy, beef who are not allowed to make any similar claims. We do have a lot of propaganda and bad science that is very agenda driven. Yeah. And that creates an environment of confusion. Yeah. Like the Atlanta commission, which was like, we should do like three ounces of meat a week maybe. So let's talk about the RDA.

So the current RDA, which is the recommended dietary allowance. Correct, and that was based on studies that we know were flawed, right? Those were based on nitrogen-based studies of 18-year-olds that they wanted to, or they wanted to provide an amount which would stop disease, you know, it's baseline for disease. It's the minimal amount.

In other words, the minimum amount you need so you don't get sick, it's not how much you need to be healthy. Correct. So we came up, or they came up with a number, not me, way before my time, unless my Botox is that good, not having any lately. The RDA is 0.8 grams per kilogram. And that spans from anyone ages 18 and beyond. 18, 50, 60, 80. Okay. That is the minimum amount. There is 30 years of data to support that the minimum amount is not adequate. We know that as you age, you need double the RDA. For body composition, you're looking at double the RDA.

You mean for building more muscle? For anything. In obesity, we know that the higher your diet is in protein while calories are controlled, the more lean muscle mass you can maintain. And we spoke, when we started talking about this, we talked about why muscle was so important. And this obesity epidemic isn't quite an obesity epidemic. It is really an epidemic of poor muscle mass, low muscle mass, obesogenic sarcopenia, loss and destruction of tissue. We are largely domesticated. So what's happened is we have-

Wait, what do you mean we're largely domesticated? We ride in cars. We're not doing physical movement. We are eating in a way that is not supporting our current existence. And actually red meat consumption has gone down by 29% since 1975. But chicken's gone up. Chicken has gone up. Dairy has gone down by 29% since 1975. But chicken's gone up. Chicken has gone up. Dairy has gone down.

Yeah. The concept that we are eating too much protein, the average American eats between 60 and 90 grams. Women are around maybe a little bit above 60 grams and men are around 90 grams. So that's the average American. I hope you enjoyed today's episode. One of the best ways you can support this podcast is by leaving us a rating and review below. Until next time, thanks for tuning in.

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