The Dr. Hyman Show - How Psychedelics And Meditation Affect The Brain

Episode Date: November 22, 2019

Currently, psychedelics are getting renewed interest from the medical community. From anxiety and depression to addiction and even overcoming fear of death, research is showing psychedelic-assisted psychotherapy has a lot to offer. And science is showing us that the same part of the brain that is suppressed with psychedelics—the default mode network— is also suppressed in very experienced meditators. In this minisode, Dr. Hyman explores this topic in his conversations with Michael Pollan, Anthony Bossis and Daniel Goleman.  Michael Pollan is the author of the New York Times bestsellers Cooked, Food Rules, In Defense of Food, The Omnivore’s Dilemma, The Botany of Desire, and his latest book How to Change Your Mind, which is all about the new science of psychedelics. A longtime contributor to the New York Times Magazine, he also teaches writing at Harvard and the University of California, Berkeley where he is the John S. and James L. Knight Professor of Science Journalism. In 2010, Time magazine named him one of the one hundred most influential people in the world. Anthony P. Bossis, Ph.D. conducts FDA-approved clinical trials in the reemerging field of psychedelic research. He is a clinical psychologist and clinical assistant professor of psychiatry at NYU School of Medicine investigating the effects of psilocybin, a naturally occurring compound found in specific species of mushrooms. Dr. Bossis was director of palliative care research, co-principal investigator, co-author, and session guide on the 2016 landmark study showing a significant reduction in emotional distress along with enhanced existential wellbeing from a single psilocybin-generated mystical experience in persons with cancer. Dr. Bossis is a supervisor of psychotherapy at Bellevue Hospital and co-founder and former co-director of the Bellevue Hospital Palliative Care Service and maintains a private psychotherapy practice in NYC. Daniel Goleman is best known for his worldwide bestseller Emotional Intelligence and most recently co-authored the book Altered Traits: Science Reveals How Meditation Changes Your Mind, Brain and Body. Goleman has been ranked among the 25 most influential business leaders by several business publications including TIME and The Wall Street Journal. Apart from his writing on emotional intelligence, Goleman has written books on topics including self-deception, creativity, transparency, meditation, social and emotional learning, eco-literacy, and the ecological crisis. Tune into Dr. Hyman’s full length conversation with Michael Pollan: https://DrMarkHyman.lnk.to/MichaelPollan Tune into Dr. Hyman’s full- length conversation with Anthony Bossis: https://DrMarkHyman.lnk.to/AnthonyBossis Tune into Dr. Hyman’s full-length conversation with Daniel Goleman: https://DrMarkHyman.lnk.to/DanielGoleman

Coming up on this week's episode of The Doctor's Pharmacy. In very experienced meditators, like Tibetan monks who've been in a cave for nine years, they are able to have the same effect on their brain, on functional MRIs, as those people who take psilocybin or LSD. Hey everyone, before we get into today's mini episode, I want to tell you about my new cookbook, Food, What the Heck Should I Cook? Now, for those of you who know me, you know that I love to cook for my friends and family. And I believe that cooking delicious and nourishing meals using food as medicine for your loved ones is one of the greatest gifts you can give them.

And also learning to prepare meals using real whole foods paves the way for you to achieve your best health and to help reverse so many chronic diseases. And that's why I put together my brand new cookbook, Food, What the Heck Should I Cook? It's a beautiful cookbook. It has over a hundred real food recipes that I use in my own kitchen. It's also filled with tips for overhauling your pantry, a grocery shopping list, and tips for recipe-free cooking. Think of it as a definitive guide

to cooking your way to better health. I think you're gonna love it. For more information about the cookbook, you can go to foodthecookbook.com. That's foodthecookbook.com. Thanks, and I'll see you in the kitchen. Hi, I'm Louis Legg, one of the producers of the Doctor's Pharmacy Podcast. Research on psychedelics is currently seeing a renewed interest from the medical community. From anxiety and depression to addiction and even overcoming the fear of death, research is showing psychedelic-assisted

psychotherapy has a lot to offer. Earlier this year, Dr. Hyman spoke with best-selling author and journalist Michael Pollan and with clinical psychologist Dr. Anthony Bossis about the area of the brain which gets suppressed with psychedelics and how the ego is also housed in this same part of the brain. Let's listen in, starting with Dr. Hyman's conversation with Michael Pollan. I heard you speak at South by Southwest, and you were talking about this part of the brain called the default mode network. And you said something that sort of just caught my attention, which is that in very experienced meditators,

like Tibetan monks who've been in a cave for nine years, they are able to have the same effect on their brain, on functional MRIs, as those people who take psilocybin or LSD. It suppresses this part of the brain that's sort of our ego. Yeah, I mean it's, you know. Can you talk about that? Yeah, well this is one of the most interesting findings

in the kind of basic science around psychedelics. They began putting people into MRI machines and administering LSD and psilocybin, and they wanted to see what was going on in their brains, what was activated, what was deactivated. Their expectation was that there would be general activation because there's such fireworks, right, that people report in the experience. The big surprise was there was a deactivation of this default mode network which um is a a group of tightly linked structures uh connects the prefrontal cortex to the posterior singular cortex to a deeper older

structures involved in memory and emotion pretty impressive for a journalist and all those brain parts i still struggle with brain anatomy frankly it's like neuroanatomy that's not easy it's not easy at all and um there's like a big mush of like this jello thing but there's so much anatomy in it it's so specific and you know our thinking now about the brain is it is very networked it's not about individual parts do very specific things they're all linked in very interesting ways and the linkages are just as important so the default mode network is involved in self-reflection uh theory of mind the ability to impute mental states to others a time travel the ability to think about the future and the past which you really need to construct an identity right i mean

i mean oliver sack showed us if you don't have a memory, you don't have an identity. And the so-called autobiographical self, which is the function of kind of building the story of who we are out of what happens to us. And that appears to happen in the posterior cingulate cortex. So yeah, to the extent that the ego has an address, it would be in the default mode network. And this is basically, it's not completely turned off, but it's down-regulated. extent that the ego has an address it would be in the default mode network and this uh is is basically it's not completely turned off but it's down regulated and when they also did similar fmris

of meditators long-term meditators with 10 000 hours of experience they found the same pattern uh the deactivation of the default mode network which which makes sense in in that both involve ego dissolution yeah right i mean you're you're transcending your ego in meditation if you're very experienced uh and quieting the part of the self-chatter i mean because because the default mode network is where you you go to mind wander worry uh all that well that's it i mean it's exactly i think you're hitting on something that's so key, which is that suffering comes from identifying with your ego and that the liberation of suffering according to the Buddhist tradition is realizing

that that's just an illusion and that you're not really separate and that the meditation is a technique to help you actually realize that. And break that attachment to your worries or everything really. And that attachment is the basis of suffering. Yeah, I mean the Buddhists figured this out

a really long time ago. And now neuroscience is moving in a very similar direction. We as humans think that everything we see, feel, smell, touch, hear is all that there is. But we know that there are many other sensory experiences that we don't have the bandwidth for. Our spectrum of light, our spectrum of hearing, our spectrum of smell,

our spectrum of temperature sensation. I mean, snakes can actually have this massive ability to detect temperature changes so they can see if there's something warm around them to go bite or eat. And yet we think what we see is all there is. It's a very interesting thing. And so maybe these drugs actually help us expand our sensory ability to kind of process information or see different things

or relate to what we're doing differently. It seems to do that, Mark. Yeah. It's easy to talk about the biology a lot because we can see that as well in terms of fMRIs and PET scans. What I find remarkable is that it seems to, again, trigger something that's naturally occurring in humans. There's a recent Pew study that shows that 49% of people

report having mystical experiences in their lives, just naturally. I mean, it's incredible. These medicines promote it in a very significant way, hours of the experience versus a few minutes. In terms of the neurobiology, we know that it activates upon a serotonergic receptor, which is the primary receptor for these medicines when that receptor is blocked um the experiences don't happen the same way so it is serotonergically modulated immediately like super prozac well you know we

know very little about the neuroscience but we know this we know the serotonin um and there's now speculation something called the default mode network gets quiet down, which is kind of the part of the brain that links to part of our mind that forms a sense of self, the so-called ego. And that quiets down, but other parts of the brain might be able to crosstalk in a more direct way. So what I'm struck by is that we're wired for meaning, right? And these experiences, meaning-making, transcendence, ineffability, sacredness, awe, unity, happen naturally.

So something in our nature has us wired for these incredible experiences. They seem pro-ethical and pro-social, right? I mean, you said something really important, which is they help you dissolve the ego. Right. The sense of, right. We live in a very structured view of the world most of the time most of us with very limited understanding of our connection to everything else so it's almost like we we live in this world where we're focused on our ego and our own life and our own needs and our own purpose and our own

connections but not really understanding the the ways in which we're connected to everything that matters. And I think that's what these drugs seem to do. They seem to sort of break down and dissolve the ego, which can take decades of meditation. It's almost like a spiritual shortcut. Dr. Hyman further explored this topic with Daniel Goleman, the best-selling author of Altered Traits, Science Reveals How Meditation Changes Your Mind, Brain, and Body. Yeah, you know, I was listening to Michael Pollan, who's going to be on our podcast, talk about the effect of psychedelic drugs and the research going on around how they affect the brain. Yes.

And he says they suppress something called the default mode network, which is this new area of the brain that was recently discovered that seems to be where the ego lives, where the sense of separation from our thoughts of ourself my worries what's wrong in my relationships all of that is default right it's the eye this the little eye of the little self which is all about the threat to the ego which is which is protective and defensive and fearful and it's what we want to protect and control things with. And when that area gets suppressed with psychedelics, it allows you to feel one with the world and connection to everybody and love, and your little self gives way to the big self.

And the same thing happens with meditation, which is fascinating. Well, there's a difference. It's a very big difference. We call our book Altered Traits, not Altered States. Yeah. Because Michael is talking about an altered state. Yes. The minute that drug leaves your body, I'm sorry, the self comes back. Sure. So meditation changes the brain in a lasting way. That's the altered trait. And it's a very important difference. And that's what causes suffering, right? According to the Buddhist philosophy, suffering is your attachment to things being a certain way, which is usually driven by your ego.

Yes, and liking or disliking this or that, and worrying about this thing and that person and all of that. The ego is the source of suffering. And that's one thing that we found, is that the part of the brain where the ego lives, so to speak, gets smaller. Yeah.

It reduces in meditators, in yogis, in long-term meditators. That's fascinating. We have only begun to scratch the surface of the intricacies of the human brain. And I, for one,

am excited to see what we learn from here. If you'd like to learn more about anything you've heard in today's episode, be sure to check out Dr. Hyman's full length interviews with Michael Pollan, Anthony Bossis, and Daniel Goleman. And if you enjoyed this episode, please consider rating us on Apple Podcasts and sharing this episode with a friend. Until next time, thanks for listening.

Hi, everyone. I hope you enjoyed this week's episode. Just a reminder that this podcast is for educational purposes only. This podcast is not a substitute for professional care by a doctor or other qualified medical professional. This podcast is provided on the understanding that it does not constitute medical or other professional advice or services. If you're looking for help in your journey, seek out a qualified medical practitioner. If you're looking for a functional medicine practitioner, you can visit ifm.org and search their find a practitioner database. It's important that you have someone in your corner who's trained, who's a licensed healthcare practitioner, and can help you make changes, especially when it comes to your health.