The Dr. Hyman Show - Is Dairy Good For Us?

Episode Date: August 27, 2021

Is Dairy Good For Us? | This episode is brought to you by ButcherBox We have no biological requirement for dairy, and yet, we’ve been told over and over again that this food is a great source of calcium and that milk makes healthy bones and we should drink it daily. However, the research shows that none of this is true. In fact, close to 70 percent of the world’s population is genetically unable to properly digest milk and other dairy products—a problem known as lactose intolerance. But even if you aren’t lactose intolerant, consuming dairy can lead to weight gain, bloating, acne, gas, allergies, eczema, brittle bones, and sometimes even cancer. In this mini-episode, Dr. Hyman discusses why he often works with patients to eliminate dairy in conversations with his colleagues Lisa Dreher and Dr. Elizabeth Boham. He also speaks with Dr. David Ludwig about his recent research on milk and dairy products. Lisa Dreher is a registered dietitian who got her undergraduate nutrition degree at the Rochester Institute of Technology and completed a dietetic internship through Cornell University. Lisa first worked in the acute care hospital setting and became a Clinical Nutrition Specialist working in Pediatric Gastroenterology at the University of Rochester Medical Center. At the same time, she pursued her Masters degree in Nutrition and Integrative Health from the Maryland University of Integrative Health and started practicing integrative and functional nutrition in private practice before joining UWC in 2015. She has since received additional training through the Institute for Functional Medicine.  Over the past 10 years, Lisa has delivered several public health lectures on the role of food as medicine and her work has been showcased in Reader’s Digest, on National Public Radio, and she was featured in the Broken Brain 2 series. She also developed the Digestive Health and Gut Microbiome training module for the Dietitians in Integrative and Functional Medicine practice group through the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics.  Elizabeth Boham is a physician and nutritionist who practices Functional Medicine at The UltraWellness Center in Lenox, MA. Through her practice and lecturing she has helped thousands of people achieve their goals of optimum health and wellness. She witnesses the power of nutrition every day in her practice and is committed to training other physicians to utilize nutrition in healing. Dr. Boham has contributed to many articles and wrote the latest chapter on Obesity for the Rankel Textbook of Family Medicine. She is part of the faculty of the Institute for Functional Medicine and has been featured on the Dr. Oz show and in a variety of publications and media including Huffington Post, The Chalkboard Magazine, and Experience Life. Her DVD Breast Wellness: Tools to Prevent and Heal from Breast Cancer explores the Functional Medicine approach to keeping your breasts and whole body well. David S. Ludwig, MD, PhD is an endocrinologist and researcher at Boston Children’s Hospital. He holds the rank of Professor of Pediatrics at Harvard Medical School and Professor of Nutrition at Harvard School of Public Health. Dr. Ludwig is co-director of the New Balance Foundation Obesity Prevention Center and founder of the Optimal Weight for Life program, one of the country’s oldest and largest clinics for the care of overweight children.    For more than 25 years, Dr. Ludwig has studied the effects of dietary composition on metabolism, body weight, and risk for chronic disease. Described as an “obesity warrior” by Time Magazine, Dr. Ludwig has fought for fundamental policy changes to improve the food environment. He has been a Principal Investigator on numerous grants from the National Institutes of Health and philanthropic organizations and has published over 200 scientific articles. Dr. Ludwig was a Contributing Writer at JAMA for 10 years and presently serves as an editor for The American Journal of Clinical Nutrition and The BMJ. He has written 3 books for the general public, including the #1 New York Times bestseller Always, Hungry? Conquer Cravings, Retrain Your Fat Cells, and Lose Weight Permanently. This episode is brought to you by ButcherBox. Right now ButcherBox has a special offer for new members. If you sign up today you’ll get 2 ribeye steaks free in your first box plus $10 off by going to butcherbox.com/farmacy. Find Dr. Hyman’s full-length conversation with Lisa Dreher, “A Simple Diet Experiment That May Solve Most Of Your Health Issues” here: https://DrMarkHyman.lnk.to/FeJHNRJ3   Find Dr. Hyman’s full-length conversation with Dr. Elizabeth Boham, “Acne, Weight Gain, Facial Hair, Hair Loss, Infertility: Is PCOS The Cause?” here: https://DrMarkHyman.lnk.to/68G64S1Y Find Dr. Hyman’s full-length conversation with Dr. David Ludwig, “Why Most Everything We Were Told About Dairy Is Wrong” here: https://DrMarkHyman.lnk.to/DrDavidLudwig Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Coming up on this episode of The Doctor's Pharmacy. The milk we're eating isn't the milk we ate or drank. It is a very different product. It's homogenized and altered in ways that affect its health benefits. And then, of course, the industrial dairy we eat has a lot of environmental consequences. And the fact that we're having this very hormonally active food has real concerns. Hey, everybody, it's Dr. Hyman here. This episode is sponsored by ButcherBox. You've probably heard me talk about ButcherBox before because they've revolutionized the process of buying high quality meat and seafood. I love to cook and I have a super busy schedule, so

whenever I can spend some time in the kitchen, I want to have all my favorite ingredients right at my fingertips. I'm also really picky about what I eat and the quality of the meat and the seafood, and I can't always find what I want and what I trust at the local market, and that is why I love ButcherBox. They make it easy to get humanely raised meat and wild-caught sustainable seafood by delivering it right to my doorstep. There are different box varieties to choose from along with the different sizes and an easily customizable schedule for ongoing deliveries. Sometimes I realize I'll be out of town when my next order is due, and it's easy to change my delivery date to when I need to. There's nothing quite like a good steak and ButcherBox's 100% grass-fed, grass-finished ribeyes that have become my new favorite.

They are a perfect combination of juicy and tender with a rich flavor, and they're so simple to prepare too. I love searing them with a savory spice blend and serving with a huge arugula salad for a quick dinner. ButcherBox is committed to humanely raised animals that are never given antibiotics or added hormones, and since they take out the middleman, they actually are surprisingly affordable. The cost average breaks down to about less than $6 per meal. There is a major stipulation I always tell my patients when it comes to animal protein, quality needs to be a priority. And with ButcherBox, you can feel good knowing you're getting the highest quality meat and seafood to optimize

your diet. Right now, ButcherBox has a special offer for new members. If you sign up today, you'll get two ribeye steaks free in your first box, plus $10 off by going to butcherbox.com forward slash pharmacy, F-A-R-M-A-C-Y. That's 200% grass-fed ribeyes for free, plus $10 off your first box by going to butcherbox.com forward slash pharmacy. Now let's get back to this week's episode of The Doctor's Pharmacy. Hi, I'm Kea, one of the producers of The Doctor's Pharmacy podcast. Most of us grew up hearing that dairy, especially milk, is crucial for good health. But in reality, dairy isn't the vital source of calcium and strong bones that we were led to believe. Dr. Hyman sat down with

dietician Lisa Dreyer, and they talked about a patient she worked with to eliminate dairy as a first step toward improving her overall health. So there's a 47-year-old woman who came with constipation. She was pooping maybe twice a week. I'm like, we got to get you pooping twice a day, twice a week. So she had joint pains, but she had sinus, these recurring sinus infections that would happen every year, once or twice a year. So when I hear constipation, when I hear sinus congestion and inflammation in general, I think of dairy, dairy products. And when I hear joint pain, I think of gluten. Sure, it could be a lot of other foods, but we thought, okay, let's start off with gluten and dairy-free. Of course, sugar-free and

preservative and- Process-free. Gluten, dairy, sugar, and processed food, 90% of the time, it's all you need. Exactly. So at first, she sounded like she was on board. You know, I just kind of gave her the overview. And then it was like a light bulb just went off. So she grabbed. Yeah, told you you had to take away her cheese. She like grabbed, yes. She's like, are you telling me that I have to give up my cheese? So when I told her, I said, well, unfortunately, yes. And I thought it was just going to be like a little back and forth. She started sobbing. Oh, no. I mean, sobbing. I had to give her the tissues. And I said, you know what?

This is the first time I'm really seeing in real time the power of food addiction. And I said, I let her finish. Obviously, I didn't interrupt her. But I said, have you ever heard of casomorphins before or gluteomorphins? And these opioid-like peptides that cross the blood-brain barrier and can actually not only influence you neurologically, but cause you to feel addicted to these foods. Like you need to have more. She's like, no, I haven't heard of it, but it sounds like me. And I was just kind of nervous. I wasn't sure

if she was really going to be on board because she, again, I'd never seen something so reactive before. Four weeks later, she comes back. I'm like, how'd she do? Different person, different person entirely. She, even the way she spoke was more clear. She, she sounded more confident. Like there wasn't something holding her back. She was pooping five times a week. Her joint pain went away, but she was like, the most remarkable thing about this is not just the fact that I was able to give up cheese, but the fact that I don't have any cravings for it anymore. I don't need it. I don't even want it because I can't believe something had such a tight hold over me. Well, you know, you mentioned these caseomorphins and this is a real thing that we actually test for at the Ochoa Wanda Center. We use urine testing and

we can see both gluten and dairy. They do react with the basically heroin receptors in your brain and the opioid receptors in your brain. And they create this pleasure, but they also are highly addictive. And it's not that it happens in everybody, but it's not that uncommon. It's more common in autistic kids and others. So really very great story because people often don't connect the dots. And when you give people a chance to stop the foods that are problematic and add in the good foods, then their body's

going to tell them. They don't need you or me or a doctor or anybody else to tell them what works. They see the difference. Their size is clear up. Their headaches go away. Their skin clears up. They feel better, right? Their digestion improves. Dr. Hyman also spoke to Dr. Elizabeth Boham about some of the ways that dairy can negatively impact our health. As you can imagine, dairy products, both milk and cheese and dairy products coming from a cow are full of hormones. You know, that cow to make cow's milk has um has a lot of hormones floating around those hormones get into the milk even if it's organic yeah yeah and so and there's more than ones that aren't yes there's like 60 different hormones in milk yeah and so and some people are

very sensitive to those hormones and And they will cause acne production. They will cause more acne, more... And then, of course, a lot of people are sensitive to dairy. So it can cause a lot of digestive unrest and digestive issues. And what's also interesting to me is that when you look at people who consume dairy, dairy will spike insulin pretty high. Yes. A 300% increase in insulin consuming dairy, which I was sort of surprised at when I looked at people consume dairy, dairy will spike insulin pretty high. Yes. A 300% increase in insulin consuming dairy,

which I was sort of surprised at when I looked at the literature. Especially the lower fat dairy, right? Because that, you know, and so for so long, we were going to the lower fat and then we were going maybe to the lower fat chocolate milk in school, right?

You know, all those things that were spiking insulin. And I would say for women with hormonal issues, I think dairy's got to go for most of them to start at least to see how it affects them. Because whether it's irregular cycles or whether it's PCOS or whether it's acne, whatever is going on, I think it's an incredibly hormonally disruptive food for so many people. And a lot of people can tolerate it fine. But if you've got problems, you've got to thinking about what you got to cut out. And I think what is really helpful a lot of times at

the beginning when you're dealing with, when you have a lot of things going on and you're not sure how food's impacting you, sometimes to do a full elimination of a food or a group of foods is really helpful because it gives you a lot of feedback. So sometimes if you just sort of cut down, you don't really go, I'm not really eating much dairy. And I get that all the time. I don't really. After dinner. I agree. It's like, it's hard for people to understand that, you know, a little bit can do a lot of damage. And the way I explain it to people is think about like a peanut allergy. Sometimes if you're like just exposed to peanut dust, you can get an

anaphylactic reaction. That's how powerful your immune system, it responds to microscopic doses. Dr. Hyman also spoke with Dr. David Ludwig about his research on milk and dairy products. We have a government that's telling us we should be having three glasses of milk a day, and we can't have school lunches without milk. Do you think that's the right policy? Do you think it needs to be modified? What should we do? It's wrong. We came forth in our paper, at least in our opinion, quite clearly that there is no evidence basis for all adults eating three servings of dairy a day, milk or milk equivalents. And we recommend zero to two, you know, which takes into account that milk and dairy products have been traditionally

part of many cultures. They can be delicious, you know, cheese, yogurt and fermented dairy products actually look very good. They tend to be in the best epidemiologic studies consistently popping up as among the most protective foods we eat. Now, that might not have to do with the inherent dairy per se, but the fact that yogurt is one of the few naturally fermented foods that remain in our diet. Like pickles aren't naturally fermented. They might be chemically treated to pickle them. Whereas yogurt, especially if it's not sugar sweetened, is one of those traditional fermented products that may be beneficial to the gut microbiome and have other, you know, help. Yeah. And that's

important. We just said the sweetened ones. I mean, there's more sugar per ounce in sugar beneficial to the gut microbiome and have other you know yeah i mean that's important we just said the sweetened ones i mean there's more sugar per ounce in sugar sweetened yogurt like fruit sweetened yogurt than a per ounce of soda so it's definitely not a health food when you add the sugar in and i think that uh the question then so we're not arguing to get rid of dairy products but we just don't think that this super intense consumption, I mean, three servings a day, which would make dairy products among the most dominant source of calories for any single food in many people's diets. But when we start thinking about foods like dairy, the question is, shouldn't be, what

is the minimum amount based on these old notions of nutrients, but what amounts are optimal for the population today, given the prevalence of high prevalence of obesity, diabetes, and heart disease? Yeah. So, so back then, you know, I remember reading about the development of the four food groups, right? Milk was one of them. Dairy is one of the four food groups. But that was a construct of industry, not science, where big industrial producers of these products, meat, milk, produce, and grains, basically got together and said, well, how do we sell more of

our stuff? Let's make the four food groups. And it really had nothing to do with science. And at the same time, we also have to understand that milk is something that most of the world's population doesn't tolerate. 75% or 70% are lactose intolerant. Most populations around the world don't consume milk on a regular basis, like China and Asia and most Asian countries, Africa. There are some exceptions, obviously the Maasai, but I think that for the most part, it's not a staple food after weaning. And yet somehow in the West, we've come to think about it as, you know, as American as apple pie and, you know, and the American flag. And so, and in fact, you can't even get a school lunch authorized unless

milk is included in the school lunch. But you really question that. And a point that I'd like to continue to return to during our talk today is an interaction with diet quality. To understand the impact of a food like milk or really many other foods, because there's essentially no one food that you have to eat in order to live. So the question is, how do these foods support health for a specific population? And to understand that, we need to think about what foods are being traded off. So for a child that's consuming junk foods all day long, sugary beverages and packaged savory snacks, cheeseburgers and dairy products might be among the healthiest things that they eat.

These are whole foods for the most part, as long as they're not loaded up with sugar, as actually does still happen in schools. So dairy products would tend to increase diet quality, displace some of these highly processed junk foods, and would be good for health. And so I think what we want to do is ask, what is the background diet we're talking about? To simply say, don't drink milk, would, I think, produce a lot of harm because there are children in the United States and even more so in countries with borderline nutritional status, where milk provides one of the best sources of protein, of fats, of slow digesting carbohydrates, potassium, calcium, and other nutrients. But this is a big, you know, this is one of the first myths to go, that drinking a lot of milk as a kid is going to reduce your

risk of getting a fracture in his adulthood. And if anything, it's the opposite. So this is the basis for our recommendations, which is you need calcium-preventing osteoporosis, and that's why our guidelines tell us to have three glasses of milk a day. Yeah, well, you do need calcium. You just don't need that much. And the amount that you need can be obtained from other sources. A serving of kale is going to get you a third to a halfway there. Chia seeds.

A serving of sardines, nuts, seeds. Chia seeds, tahini, those are my favorite. So just to summarize a little bit for people listening, you know, one, the recommendations that our government has are not based on good science. Two is it may not increase the, decrease the risk of fractures. So in fact, maybe there's an increased risk of fractures when people have more milk, especially when they're younger. It also seems to increase certain cancers like endometrial cancer, prostate cancer, all that may reduce colon cancer. It may be linked to weight gain if people are having low fat milk products because it doesn't make you feel full and satisfied. And maybe you eat more food, which makes you gain weight. It also seems to be linked to certain allergic disorders

and clearly digestive issues for people of lactose intolerance, which is probably 70% of the world's population. And the milk we're eating isn't the milk we ate or drank. It is a very different product that's homogenized and altered in ways that affect its health benefits. And then, of course, the industrial dairy we eat has a lot of environmental consequences. And the fact that we're having this very hormonally active food

has a real concern. So I think, you know, as a functional medicine doctor in my practice, I've seen the evidence of what you're talking about. And I think it's something that I think people are not really aware of. And especially since the government is so strong and since the Dairy Council is so strong in the marketing efforts, we've really sort of been bamboozled to think this is nature's perfect food, which it is, but only if you're a calf. So I think, David, is there any other final words of wisdom you want to share with our audience about milk and health? Yeah, I think you summed it up.

Let me just put it, the three bullet point conclusions in our piece were that you don't need people, the recommendation of three servings a day is not evidence-based. That's how we scientists like to say it's wrong. That's code word for it ain't true. It's wrong. That's code word for it ain't true. It's not. If you're vegan and eating a high-quality diet, you don't have to feel like you have to drink milk to protect your bones. On the other hand, go ahead and enjoy a serving or two of dairy products.

Keep it high quality. And most importantly, avoid sugar-sweetened dairy products because that's where a lot of sugar creeps into the diet, especially with fat-reduced. So enjoy the full-fat versions or try eliminating dairy and see if some of your chronic inflammatory issues improve. Yeah, I mean, three weeks of a no dairy diet will give you a lot of clues and there's no downside to doing that. And maybe you'll find out what's going on. I also want to add to something there

because I think quality has been your main mantra around every aspect of diet for as long as I've known you. And I think I would add the same around dairy. And so what does that mean to me? And I wish they had more evidence to back this up. But when I think about consuming dairy, I think it's important to avoid industrial dairy, both for you and the cow and the planet.

Well, that's three things. But anyway, I also think that if you're going to consume dairy, try to find grass-fed cows, try to find heirloom cows. And there are ways to make it an adventure to try to source it. But there are, for example, cows now that are being raised that are A2 cows that are raised on diverse forages and grasses that probably makes them more beneficial. Support a local dairy. Yeah. And lastly, I think sheep and goat dairy tend to be better tolerated, are less likely to be subject to large industrial practices, and have been consumed for a long time. And I know

personally, just a little personal anecdote, when I have dairy, I get pimples, and I get digestive issues, and I get a lot of mucus and congestion. So it's not fun. But when I have sheep or goat, it doesn't really happen so much. So I think there is something to it, and congestion. So it's not fun. But when I have sheep or goat, it doesn't really happen so much. So I think there is something to it, and I'd love to see more studies on it. But I think if you want to follow the precautionary principle and take care of yourself while enjoying dairy, I would say sheep and goat. And there's great goat and sheep yogurts and kefirs also if you want to have fermented products. So that's not going to get you into trouble. For many people, dairy consumption can result in weight gain, bloating, acne, gas, allergies, eczema, brittle bones, and sometimes even cancer. Working with a health professional to eliminate

dairy from your diet for a period of time can be a great way to determine how dairy affects you. If you're lactose intolerant or sensitive to dairy, then you should avoid it at all costs. But even if you are tolerant, milk shouldn't be a major part of your diet. Dr. Hyman also recommends staying away from other industrial produced cheeses or dairy products. If you'd like to learn more about anything you heard in today's episode, I encourage you to check out Dr. Hyman's full-length conversations with Lisa Dreher, Dr. Elizabeth Boham, and Dr. David Ludwig. If you enjoyed this episode, please consider sharing it with your community. Thanks for tuning in. Hi, everyone. I hope you enjoyed this week's episode. Just a reminder that this podcast is for educational purposes only. This podcast is not a substitute for professional care by a doctor or

other qualified medical professional. This podcast is provided on the understanding that it does not constitute medical or other professional advice or services. If you're looking for help in your journey, seek out a qualified medical practitioner. If you're looking for a functional medicine practitioner, you can visit ifm.org and search their Find a Practitioner database. It's important that you have someone in your corner who's trained, who's a licensed healthcare practitioner, and can help you make changes, especially when it comes to your health.