The Dr. Hyman Show - Why Health Is Not Determined By Our Healthcare System with Paulette Jordan

Episode Date: July 22, 2020

Why Health Is Not Determined By Our Healthcare System | This episode is brought to you by Thrive Market and AquaTru We can’t expect to create healthy bodies if we aren’t growing healthy food. But our food system is broken and involves many barriers, especially for underserved communities like North American Indigenous people living on reservations. I talk a lot about the overwhelming burden of chronic disease. Unfortunately, tribes relying on government commodities (white sugar, white flour, and white fat) are among some of the most susceptible to those illnesses and we’re now seeing them fare much worse against COVID-19 as a result. For that reason, food sovereignty is an extremely important topic of our time.  Today on The Doctor’s Farmacy, I sit down with Paulette Jordan to talk about her experiences as a proud member of the Coeur d’Alene Tribe and what kinds of changes are needed in order to reverse the health issues that Indigenous and other populations like these are facing at increasing rates. Paulette was the 2018 democratic gubernatorial nominee in Idaho, becoming the first woman nominated to the position by a major party in the state and the first Native American woman nominated for Governor in US history. She is recognized in Idaho and across the nation as an inspirational and audacious leader. This episode is brought to you by Thrive Market and AquaTru. Thrive Market has made it so easy for me to stay healthy, even with my intense travel schedule. Not only does Thrive offer 25 to 50% off all of my favorite brands, but they also give back. For every membership purchased, they give a membership to a family in need. Get up to $20 in shopping credit when you sign up and any time you spend more than $49 you’ll get free carbon-neutral shipping. All you have to do is head over to thrivemarket.com/Hyman. We need clean water and clean air not only to live but to create vibrant health and protect ourselves and loved ones from toxin exposure and disease. That’s why I’m teaming up with AquaTru and AirDoctor to offer you the AquaTru Water Purification System and AirDoctor Professional Air Purifier systems at a special price. Learn more at www.drhyman.com/filter. Here are more of the details from our interview: How Paulette’s upbringing helped shape her views on food, healthcare, and community sustainability (5:23) People first healthcare, food sovereignty, and social determinants of health (9:00) Solving food sovereignty issues by relearning how to connect to and grow the food we eat (15:07) Social determinants of health (19:15) How community keeps us healthy (23:37) Fixing the healthcare system through preventative care and reversing chronic disease (30:38) Reimagining our agriculture system (35:18) The influence our unhealthy food system has had on the concept of cultural foods (43:18) How COVID-19 has humbled Paulette (54:40)

Coming up on this episode of The Doctor's Pharmacy. The foods that we grow, you know, the relationship that we must have with the land is the most important relationship when it comes to health care. Because it all starts there. That's the very beginning. Hey everyone, it's Dr. Mark Hyman. It's pretty obvious that I love to cook. And I especially love using real whole foods to bring people together. And there are a few ingredients

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Welcome to the doctor's pharmacy. I'm Dr. Mark Hyman. That's pharmacy with an F, F-A-R-M-A-C-Y, a place for conversations that matter. And if you care about the state of our healthcare in America and the state of our agricultural system and how to fix it, this conversation is going to matter because it's with Paulette Jordan, an extraordinary woman. She's a member of the Coeur d'Alene tribe.

She was the 2018 Democratic gubernatorial nominee in Idaho, was the first woman nominated to the position by a major party in the state and the first Native American woman to be nominated for governor in the United States history, which is really unfortunate and way too long in coming. More Idahoans cast their vote for Paulette in 2018 than they had for any other Democratic gubernatorial or congressional candidate in Idaho history. She clearly hit a nerve there. She's a candidate for the U.S. Senate, and she has been recognized in Idaho and across the nation as an incredible leader and also pretty audacious in her views.

And today we're going to talk about things she really cares about, which is how her upbringing on a reservation in Idaho in Native American tribe affected her view of health and health care and agriculture and how they're connected. So maybe you could take us through how you began to start thinking about these issues and what in your upbringing really on your family farm in Coeur d'Alene on the reservation led you to think about land and preservation and to fight for the needs of your community and to fight for healthcare and how this growing up in that environment helped you shape your views and this connection to Idaho and the people who live there and it really has has broad implications for the rest of our world too. It has and first of all thanks for having me Mark and it's a very kind introduction thank you. I will tell you growing up in the reservation in a rural countryside of North Idaho, it was a blessing

in disguise, although it was very remote. And I will tell you that there were some challenges. And I learned a lot of lessons from my elders because I was raised by my elders. But everything was connected from land to health care, our way of life, being fiscally accountable, all of these things. And it goes hand in hand. So when you're talking about health care, to me, you're talking about food sovereignty. You're talking about prosperity and, of course, even cultural sustainability. So for me, it is everything. And just like we often say water is life because of the local Standing Rock battle that we've had. You know, we often will have ceremonies around water and our sustainable use of our natural resources.

So it is our way of life as indigenous peoples. And health care is on the top of that list because it's connected to our environment. Yeah, and I think, you know, you said something that was very interesting, which is a different way of framing how we learn from the past. In America, we call old people aged, which is kind of a pejorative, derogatory term. You talk about elders, which implies wisdom and connection to the past and understanding of the future. And how do the lessons that they taught you about the land, about taking care of the earth, about health and taking care of yourself,

affect what you're doing now? When you're raised on a traditional landscape, meaning, you know, elders surrounding you and every day you wake up, they're talking about the relationship that you have with the land, and elders, and your ancestors had with the land. That's all you know, and honestly, it becomes your everyday way of thinking, so it's just commonplace. It may not be for everybody, but that's just the way I was raised, and many of the folks in my community were raised. And I think that's also, you know, why we as indigenous peoples hold such a high responsibility to enact what we are taught and ensure that we're carrying this message forward. And that's really a big part of why we respect our elders so much.

You know, they have this vast wisdom and knowledge and sense of being. And because they're so beholden to their purpose here in this life spiritually, you know, they pass that down on to us younger ones. And so we, you know, we then learn to find our purpose sooner than later and then adhere to that purpose. And now, you know, we have to teach our children the same thing. So they also remind us to, you know, pay it forward. And that's, to me, it's a very selfless way of being, but that's what leadership is about. Leaders create other leaders and other leaders in terms of being natural resource ambassadors, ambassadors of humanity, ambassadors of peace. Amazing. You know, and you, you, you're one of the few people in politics who I've even heard use the

word functional medicine. And I heard you on a podcast with a friend of mine, James Mastin, I was like, wow, how does she know about functional medicine and integrative medicine? And how does that actually connect to the way she was brought up? And why are you so focused on this? And why do you think it's such an important part of health care? I've always been about people-first policy in all of my legislation, having served in public office. And I would say that typically, you know, when I speak of health care, I'm talking about having a conversation about, you know, real coverage and being holistic and integrative. My community that I come from, you know, we want our people to live a long life.

And my grandmother who was a medicine woman, she also believed in holistic medicine. So it's not new to us as indigenous peoples. We've always had practices that are about longevity, but now we're working with a political system and I'm working within a political structure that is broken. And it's challenging for all Americans who are looking for healthcare that truly works.

And I'm not beholden to corporations, so you're looking at someone who wants to fix the healthcare system for one that isn't working, but that costs too much for most people who in this country cannot afford it. But I'm also about incorporating nutritional strategies, like many who were talking about food sovereignty. And now as we're dealing with COVID, now we're talking about how important it is for us to understand that what we put into our bodies is really medicine. We have to ensure that what we put in is pure

and is clear of contaminants or chemicals that are gonna somehow destroy the DNA that we already have in place. And I think that these social determinants of health also impact our communities. And because I grew up from an area where we once cultivated the land and cultivated our own medicines, and then being pushed to the reservation and having

to live off of government resources that really did our people in, in terms of healthcare, because they were giving us government subsidies. And these foods are the most horrible foods you can imagine. And they had no nutrients. They were not nutrient dense. They, you know, and of course, did impact our community in so many ways to where we have chronic illnesses from left to right that are still plaguing our society today. And it's now become a generational chronic illness, of course, from cancers to diabetes. And that's why, you know, for us and for myself, you know, I want to make sure that, you know, we're taking action

when it comes down to nutritional health and including this as a supplemental strategy for health care and health care going into the future. So we've got to look into soil quality and the nutrients we put into our foods and make sure our foods are quality. But, again, all to sustainable use. We want to make sure that people can afford these foods. And of course, I'm looking at practical solutions when it comes to primary care. You unpack so many important things. You talked about social determinants of health. You talked

about food sovereignty. You talked about the commodity program on the reservations that has made those populations so sick. And, you know, looking historically, what happened, not only were the lands taken away, but food sovereignty, meaning their ability to control and gather and hunt their own foods, their traditional foods, was impacted. And in order for them to be fed, they received large amounts of government surplus foods, white flour, white sugar, and white fat known as Crisco or shortening. And these became the staple foods. And I had a number of experiences with a few Native Americans. When I was a doctor, I went on a trip in Utah with my daughter.

We were propelling down a canyon, and we got stuck. It was a flash flood, and I got stuck for quite a while on this platform. And this obstetrician-gynecologist was from Alaska, a First Nation people from there. And he was telling me the story of how he was very overweight and very diabetic and was eating all the traditional Western foods. And he was a doctor, and he sort of thought he knew better. And he said that he realized he wanted to not be like that. And he went back to what were his ancestors eating? They were eating salmon. They were eating

the wild foods and the wild plants. And he literally transformed his diet and went back to being healthy. And a few years later, I went on a rafting trip with the head of the Ute Nation and a Hopi chief on the Green River to bring awareness to the tar sands mining in the Tavasu Plateau. And the woman, one of the native women, was telling me about how they have a word for people in their community who eat a lot of these commodity foods. They call it

which is like a word to describe people whose bodies get really big and overweight from eating these foods. And, uh, and it's so, it's become such an incredible issue in these communities. It has led to, you know, an overwhelming burden of diabetes. You know, for example, certain communities, Native communities in America, you know, 80% get diabetes by the time they're 30. Their life expectancy is 46. And they are, you know, the Pima, for example, the second most obese population in the world.

It's not an accident. They weren't like that 100 years ago. Their food environment was changed and their access to their traditional foods was changed. And I think, you know, we're seeing the same consequences in these communities with COVID. They're having a lack of access to care. Their underlying health conditions make them predisposed. And they're not able to get the kind of care that they need. And these social determinants turn into a much bigger factor.

So can you talk a little bit about this sort of issue of food sovereignty and what you mean by that and how those issues can be solved for communities? Because it's really a microcosm for what's happened, not just to these native populations, but to all those populations. And I was talking to a rancher the other day who grew up in the 60s. And he said, you know, when I grew up on a farm, we had, you know, dozens and dozens of crops. We had dozens of different animals. We ate from our farm. Everything was fresh. And then now, you know, most farms in America have one or two or

three crops and they're big, giant monocrop corn, wheat, or soy crops. And farmers don't eat from their land, and they're overweight, and they're sick, and they're unhealthy, and these rural communities too. So it's not just, you know, a select population like the Native Americans, it's everybody's being affected by the loss of our food sovereignty. So can you talk more about that? And how do you think about that? And how might we might solve that problem? Now, one of the, I think it's always, you know, everything starts local. And, you know, in our communities, very rural, it's really on the people to have, you know, the will within themselves to take action. And so for a lot of our people, they are, you know, finding swaths of land, they're they're building community and everything is about community you know

health care is only sustainable when you have community invested in and so there has to be this complete I mean it's nice that you know people you know it wasn't taught within the school systems you know to remind it's a gardening or cultivating your land was actually taught in schools when we were younger in schools so children are having to figure out for themselves you know how do we garden back to that and you know myself knows we all have to relearn the garden and grow our own foods. But food sovereignty to me is the way forward. I look at this as a complete opportunity as people are starting to see that growing your own foods,

you can trust what's in your resources. You also can have farmers' markets. It's a good way for people to share in this community building of food sovereignty. But I see that there's a rise in communities growing gardens, whether it's in the urban city centers or it's in rural Idaho. Culture is starting to pick up, and people understand that growing our foods is better

because we still don't have a Congress or a legislative body who are going to adhere to people having transparency in the labels and knowing what is in their foods. Monsanto or Bayer, they still have the upper hand and they're still leading the way in having chemicals introduced into our food systems and now it's polluting our water and it's getting into our air and everything is starting to get more and more polluted. So the people have to fight for complete integrity and the structure of the resources or the nutrients that they're putting into their systems. Yeah. It's such a, it's such an important point because I think, you know,

as I remember, I lived in Idaho for four years. I was a family doctor, worked in a small town and, you know, it was, it was a very conservative community, but people there were really focused on subsistence living. So they all sort of had jobs here and there, but they all hunted. I mean, there was a week, it was hunting season, was a week off of work. It was a holiday. And then they all had big gardens and they all grew their own food. They raised animals, they hunted, and it was just part of the culture there. And, you know, you couldn't find a vegetable in the grocery store. So that was part of the problem. But I think learning how to reclaim it, whether it's an urban gardens, urban farming, farmer's market, community support, agriculture, these are all ways people can start sort of reclaim food sovereignty. And whether it's in the Bronx with, you know, African-Americans reclaiming their food or

it's on reservations or the Americans, or whether it's just people in their own homes and community gardens in their neighborhood making a difference, it's huge. The next thing I sort of want to get into is this whole idea of social determinants of health, because I think people hear the word, they hear about it, they don't understand it. What does it mean? How does it relate? And, you know, from a doctor's perspective, you know, 20% of health happens in the healthcare system.

You know, yes, you need treatment. I had recently had back surgery and I needed to go in the hospital and get that done. And that was fine. That really helped me. But 80% of health happens outside the clinic, outside the hospital, outside the doctor's office. And it's something that the healthcare system doesn't really address. And when I've heard you talk about healthcare, you have a more nuanced view than just Medicare for all or, you know,

keeping things as they are, or, you know, restricting or repealing Obamacare. There's these two polarized views, and none of them really solve the problem of why we're all sick in the first place and why healthcare is so overburdened and why it's so costly in the first place. So can you talk about how you think differently about this? Because I think it's such an important perspective, you know, and how it links back to these social determinants issues. Well, with the rising, you know, chronic care, you know, I see how the left and the right are getting into these dysfunctional outcomes and what health care should look like. But for me, you know, I served in my tribal council and I saw the differences that can

be made when you invest more in youth activities or when you invest more into community activities that are holistic and all-incorporative. And I mean that there's other therapies that will help sustain an elder's livelihood as long as they're not on some pharmaceutical drug. There's differences that could be made. If my grandparents can live long lives, I know that this can work for everybody. My grandfather was also sometimes referred to as a mountain goat because he would be up and down the mountains every day. He ate really well.

He normally relied on roots and berries. People would say, God, this man is strong. He was a good horse, smart, brilliant man. But the fact that he was able to survive so long and be so strong in mind and body really, I think, proved to me more so, you know, what it takes to think about, you know, how you take care of your own system, your body, your health. But I do see the, you know, the adverse effects of childhood events. And, you know, I think we all have different effects in our lives and I just see that especially you know my path really helps so these sorts of therapies are very healing

you know that's why we reach back into our our culture and we you know we really resort to our ceremonies because our ceremonies help us to stay focused on what's important what matters and not be distracted by all the elements in the world. And, of course, there are other therapies like acupuncture and chiropractic care and physical therapy. We actually utilize all of these different therapies within our community. And we've seen that functional medicine like this has really helped to bring longevity into our community from even cutting costs in health care.

Primary care and preventative care, that is to me the solution to helping really heal this country. A lot of folks don't have access to primary care. A lot of folks don't have access to acupuncture or chiropractic care or certain therapies, even just things like behavioral health. And we're not investing enough into our youth. To me, it's about preventative measures. So why are we not investing in early childhood education and, of course, youth community programs? Those certain aspects to a person's development, to me, adheres

to the overall healthcare program. That's why I often will assimilate that early education is so important and is a big part of how a young child will see themselves and take their developmental portion into the physical development. That is a priority. We must start early and not wait until a person's much later into their life. Yeah, absolutely. I think it's so important to get the kids going on it. And I think, you know, the other aspect that's so, I think, unique about what we're learning about these social determinants is that

that the power of the social connectionsants is that that the power of The social connections that we have the power of groups and community and ceremony You know, it's been part of traditional native culture for thousands and thousands of years They call it a tribe, right and we're all you know, our biggest our biggest health care risk is loneliness You know 40% of the elderly describe themselves as lonely. And I think that this is one of the biggest drivers of disease. People don't realize that it's actually a risk factor for death.

It's a risk factor for heart disease. It's a risk factor for cancer, for stroke, diabetes. And I think the traditional cultures often have these embedded community-based structures, whether it's the Elkanawans and the Moai, which are their sort of little units that they form at birth with a group of four or five other little kids, and they stay that way for the entire life and are there for everything with each other. And it forms that level of connection and community. And that is so powerful healing. And you know, I helped start a program called the Daniel Plan with a church in Saddleback with Rick Warren. And we use the power of these small groups to help people transform their lives. We

got a quarter, we had 15,000 people lose 250,000 pounds in a year by doing it together in groups, not with a doctor or nurse or nutritionist, but just each other, supporting each other. And I think this is part of how we're going to have to disrupt health care, not just in the doctor's office, but actually in the community. And I think I'd love to hear how you think we might be able to do that and what we can learn from traditional communities about how that can be done. We're not recreating the wheel here, which is nice. We have these wonderful ceremonies

already in place. One of my authors would often state that our community, our traditional people are about verbs and taking action versus the Western culture, which is all about nouns. I've never thought of that. You're right. When you hear that, which is all about nouns. I never thought of that.

You're right. When you hear that, it gets you thinking because it's true. And I thought, you know, this is the indigenous worldview, and it's so beautiful to me, but, you know, something we often take for granted. And now here I am in the political scene, and I get to, you know, enact this way of life, this type of leadership, which is so unique to many.

I said, this is the way we think. And I hope that this will become a culture of changing people's minds and lives. And now that we are going through so many crises from the financial crisis to the epidemic that we're facing, I think people are much more aware of how important community is now that they're being isolated and people are suffering from not only behavioral health issues, but their own personal medicinal issues because they have to isolate themselves for multiple reasons. And then of course, you know people are struggling financially. So it's you know, I'm starting to see all these adverse effects,

and it's reshaping the way we think. And I'm hoping that this will get us back to this holistic worldview that we have indigenously. I want us to get back to how important it is to think with community. Even the clinic had affirmed in this group study that group visits are, in fact, better than one-on-one visits. Yeah. Scientists, researchers are starting to find out that people heal better when they're healed

as a community. Yeah, I'm not sure you're aware of that, but that actually came out of my work at Cleveland Clinic because when I worked with the church, I realized how powerful this was, and I wanted to bring that model into healthcare. And so we developed these groups based on this framework of peer support. And that's what we began to found is that not only people get better, but they get better much faster. And we're going to be publishing some of that data soon, which is pretty, pretty exciting to see. And I think it's going to underscore that it's cheaper to deliver care that way. It's more effective.

The outcomes are better and the outcomes are faster. And people actually get this extra medicine, which is, I call it love. Love medicine. It's the power of connection and community because it's so desperately needed. You know, I just want to sort of unpack a little bit about this social determinants because I think people don't really have a framework for it. You know, I just want to sort of unpack a little bit about this social determinants, because I think people don't really have a framework for it. And, you know, it's defined in many different ways, but it involves pretty much everything outside of the doctor's office or hospital that happens that relates to your health, including your conditions of birth,

your early childhood, as you mentioned, your experiences, your education, work, access to work, the social circumstances of your elders, transportation, housing, a sense of community, self-efficacy, and even things like environmental toxins, gun violence, and of course, our food environment. All these things are the social drivers, and they have enormous impact. And what most, you know, most doctors are very busy trying to, you know, treat things with incremental benefit. You know, give you a drug to reduce your blood pressure, a drug to reduce your cholesterol, a drug to reduce your blood sugar. But the magnitude of those effects is so small compared to the magnitude of the effects of dealing with these other factors in

terms of life expectancy. And there's something called the subway map, which is pretty frightening. It's basically looking at people who reside in midtown Manhattan compared to those who live in the Bronx. And the life expectancy differs by 10 years. So it's six months for every stop on the subway. In Chicago, there's something called the loop and then the west side of the city, which is more affluent and not affluent areas. The life expectancy is 16 years. So when you look at medical interventions, there is nothing that comes close to that. For example, if we completely eliminated heart disease, life expectancy would go up by four years, just a quarter of what it would be if we actually addressed these social determinants.

And it's affecting so many people. There's 40 million people who are hungry. There's 600,000 who are homeless. There's 2.3 million in jails. There's 40 million in poverty. There's 40% of our elders live in loneliness. And it's just this rampant problem that is seemingly ignored by most people in healthcare and most people in politics. And it seems like if we're really going to be serious about taking an evidence-based approach to

addressing the challenges of healthcare and reducing healthcare costs and improving the health of our population, we just can't ignore this anymore. I mean, how do you see moving forward and making inroads and addressing those things? Well, that's where we're running for Congress. I mean, you know, you have an opportunity here to have a seat in the Senate. And I feel that the fiscal stability of the United States will remain elusive until healthcare is actually fixed. You know, I'm thankful that we have a great team and our staff is very well aware of the fixes

that can be in play for healthcare in this country. But you touched a lot of this. There's a lot of stuff. I mean, there's an opportunity to fix what we're talking about. There's trillions of dollars that are being expended into chronic care, and we can save year after year trillions of dollars just by talking much in tune to Medicare for All, it's clear that even in red states like mine, that folks want good health care, but they also just want access to health care. And, of course, when they're talking about the cost, it's all variable.

People want choice, but yet, really, they just want the most successful and the best healthcare. And for me, it's not going to be the pharmaceutical industry that should have the reins here. It's going to be those who are more about the long-term care, and they're not the ones who are being incentivized. They're not the ones who are being reimbursed or covered under insurance, but we want to make sure that they're included, and that should be the future of healthcare. This is our time. This is our time to re-engineer what healthcare should look like in this country. I think that there are people who are on the left and the right

who can agree with me that integrative solutions like what we're promoting will certainly be the best option moving forward because we're tired of the nonsense that the health insurance companies are bringing and the pharmaceutical companies are bringing. People want to heal and they want to feel safe and secure in this life, that they're not going to be fed more toxic chemicals that are going to make them sicker. But they're also tired of being poor. Too much of our money goes down the drain. Spending on this broken system that we call the health care of the United States of America as is.

So I think we're taking a good hard look. And while the ACA is fundamentally built on expanding access and having the government pay for it, we have yet again this opportunity to reform health care in America that certainly we re-engineered from the ground up. And this is what I stand on in my campaign. Yeah, I think that's absolutely right. I mean, access, you know, I believe is a human right. I mean, healthcare should be a human right. At some level, basic care should be available to everybody. And in most developed countries, it is. In this country, it's not. It's very tough. And there's a tiered healthcare system for sure. But it also is really clear that we have an opportunity to deal with this chronic disease epidemic in a different way, in'm terrified by the expansion of Medicare and Medicaid. Why? Not because I don't want people to have access, because if we open the floodgates and let

more sick people in the system, it's going to be overwhelmed. We saw what happened with COVID-19. But when you think about the fact that six out of 10 Americans have a chronic illness, that 75% are overweight, that four out of 10 kids are overweight. We have such a burden. And unless we stop the flood of people into the system, we're really not going to be able to solve this problem. We're going to keep basically bailing the boat while the boat's singing, instead of going, why don't we plug the hole in the boat? And the plugging the hole in the boat

has to start with dealing with why people are sick in the first place, which is a lot of these social determinants. But a lot of them have to do with people's chronic health conditions that are driven in large part by the poor quality of our food. You know, I think there were 3% of the population, you know, 50 years ago that was chronically ill, and now it's 60%. I mean, it's just, it's staggering when you think about that number. So I think we have a real chance to start to reimagine that. And it also has to do not just with our access and food, but also agriculture. And, you know, so we talked a lot about, you know, the social determinants and the need to change our food system. But you also address the issues around agriculture and how important that is as part of the continuum to solve this problem of chronic disease.

That it really starts not just in the doctor's office, but on the farm and the ranch. And you grew up in Idaho, which is a rural farming community. You grew up on a ranch and a farm. You grew up with elders who were involved in planting and growing and raising food. How did that influence your view of what we should be doing and how do you reimagine what our agricultural system should be to solve some of these big

crises, not just for food, but also some of the environmental and bigger issues around carbon emissions from our agricultural system? Yeah, that's a, that question is the best question I think I've heard in so many years, because people understand that the foods that we grow, you know, the relationship that we must have with the land is the most important relationship when it comes to health care, because it all starts there. That's the very beginning. What we produce in agriculture and what we're able to cultivate on the land, the dark connection and relationship we have to the land via our roots, our medicines,

that is one of the most important relationships. And so many of our ceremonies are built around the cultivation of our land. And I will tell you from my own childhood, watching my grandfather, you know, looking over the family farm, he would have, there was always all these fields that I grew up around. And this one large vast field, he would be overlooking as the sun would be rising. And he would always be in prayer and he would talk about being grateful

and speaking to the spiritual element of the land. So it wasn't just, let's just water here and water there, and let's put some seeds down and let it be done and then call it good. It was a constant relationship. He was often nurturing that relationship on a daily basis, and it was very intimate. It was almost like this was his partner. He had a love relationship, a love connection.

And so as he was talking to the crops, he was always talking to the crops with our resources in the most beautiful way. I think it really drew out in him, the sensitive side of him, to me that inner spiritual element of him that made him feel whole. So you can tell that this is why our farmers who are suffering right now,

who are hurting, you know, why this, you know, whether it's the climate crisis or the economic crisis that's impacting them. You know, there's so many of them who are suffering right now, but they have that direct spiritual connection with the land that is so important and so beautiful at the same time and precious. And so I see what that's like growing up and I see how important that is for our farmers. But it's also important that they are supported because they are also healers. You know, they're able to cultivate the land and provide a resource to all of us to be healing. But it's important that they are too cared for and protected. I say this because we've had some farmers who have been hurt

and hit pretty hard financially. And so thinking about the whole political structure, why we have to keep them in mind, and not just for the sake of health care and going all the way back to nutritional care and food sovereignty and why farmers should be included in all of this. But knowing that relationship that my grandfather had and understanding what that meant and what that looks like taught me a lot about what it is we have to keep in mind. That the foods that we eat or whatever we cultivate is medicines. All of that is, you know, it's a privilege for us.

You know, it's a privilege for us to be connected to Mother Earth in this way. And we must honor that relationship, be nurtured in return, because this is Mother Earth's way of nurturing us. We have to take care of that relationship. You know, it's not just a receive, receive, receive. It has to be a give and take. You know, we have to be respectful in the same way. Well, it turns out what you're saying is actually, you know, it's based on a spiritual tradition

of living in harmony with the natural cycles and with the ecosystem, which is how those communities have survived for thousands of years. But it turns out that scientifically, we're coming to the same conclusion that in order to create a vibrant agricultural system, we have to work with nature rather than against nature. And that means creating a model of agriculture that we've talked about called regenerative agriculture that regenerates the soil, that regenerates the water resources that we have, that regenerates the biodiversity, that regenerates the nutrient density of the food, that regenerates the health of the people that eat the food. And that is such a foreign notion to how we're actually doing it. And it's not a sort of, you know, feel good, nice to do, you know, new age thing to

happen. It's actually a economic and environmental health and political imperative, because if we don't do it, according to the UN, we have only 60 harvests left of soil, and we run out of soil, we run out of humans. So, you know, this whole model of these traditional ways of actually thinking about how do we work within ecosystems to restore them is really what we're talking about, whether it's an ecosystem of a community, whether it's an ecosystem on the land and agriculture, all of it's really connected. And as a functional medicine doctor, I often think of myself in the same way as a regenerative farmer, because my job as a functional medicine doctor is to restore a healthy ecosystem so disease can't happen, right? So I don't need to put in chemicals

like drugs. So I don't need to put in all these supports. And in regenerative farming, you don't need the chemicals and the fertilizer, not because you have an idea against them, but because it works better without them, right? Because you have an idea against them, but because it works better without them, right? Because you create a healthy farm environment, you create healthy food, the pests can't show up, and it all works. And I think, you know, it's interesting. It sort of takes us a while as humans to get it right. But I think, you know, if we understand that this is an economic imperative and a political imperative to address some of the biggest crises we face, then it's just such a beautiful thing to think about. How do we create

a regenerative healthcare and a regenerative agriculture system to solve so many of these issues? And I think it's so exciting to hear someone talking about this and bringing this into the conversation, whether you're Republican or Democrat, it doesn't matter. I mean, I think we all care about our health. I mean, you have, you know, you have a body, whatever you believe, you have a body, whatever political party you join, you're a body, whatever race you are, you have a body. And I think we really have sort of ignored that this is not a political issue. You know, there are many ways to solve the problem and there are controversies about how to do it. But I think, you know, you're one of the few people I've really heard talking

about a new way of thinking that actually gets to the root of the problem, which is not just, you know, more access or restricted access or whatever. It's actually the right solution. Yeah, I appreciate you saying that about, you know, regenerative agriculture, because regenerative agriculture is starting to catch on as a culture in the community and they're starting to shift away from uh you know the the heavy uh chemical companies that are starting to that we're weighing in so heavily like monsanto you know on our local ag but long-term sustainability is what we want you know we want our farmers to be successful so any which way that we can provide these solutions, the better. And I appreciate that you're connecting healthcare to ag in that way, because I don't think a

lot of folks see that, but they need to start having that conversation. And this needs to be a dialogue that everybody continues to talk about. Yeah, I want to sort of finish up on a topic which may be a little bit challenging, and it's something I think a lot about, and as a white guy, like I don't really have a, you know, an old white guy, I don't really have a good sense of it, but, you know, the thing that I find I see in some of these communities that are burdened, whether they're poor white communities in the South, whether they're poor white communities in the South, whether they're urban African-American communities, whether they're native communities

on reservations, that a lot of the problems have been internalized. And I'll sort of give you an example of what I mean by that. I was on this rafting trip that I was on a number of years ago with this Hopi chief. And he was very, very overweight. His wife was very, very overweight. And he, you know, he lived in one of the longest inhabited communities in America, over a thousand years old, this community has been in Arizona. And he was very, very unhealthy, very diabetic. But he was the keeper of the ceremonies. And I said to him, you know, he was very, very unhealthy, very diabetic. And, but he was the keeper of the ceremonies. And I said to him, you know, he got very sick on the trip. He had trouble just

walking down the trail to the rafting boat and he was throwing up and it was just really struggling. And I was like, you know, you can, you can solve this. You can, you can get rid of your diabetes. He's like, really? He says, how do I do that? I said, well, you have to give up starch and sugar and sodas, which is causing all the problems with your metabolism. He's like, oh my God, well, I could, but how are we going to do our traditional Hopi ceremonies? Because we need our traditional Hopi ceremonial foods. And I said, what are those foods? He says, cake and cookies and pies. And it sort of shocked me. And I was like, wow, I think he really feels like these are his traditional foods, like Indian fry bread. There's nothing Indian about fry bread. It's something that was based on these government commodity foods

that have, you know, turned these populations into, you know, the sickest group in America. So how do you see these populations, whether, you know, it'sest group in America. So how do you, how do you see these populations, whether, you know, it's the African Americans or the pro-white communities or the native communities starting to, to break free from this internalized sense of this is their food and, and this is what we know and, and, and to change that dynamic, because it seems as though if these communities could say, you know, we want to reclaim our traditional food ways, if we want to go learn more about how our ancestors used to eat, because that's what will make us healthy, it would transform everything.

So how do you see addressing that? Because it's not just a Native issue. It's really across all these communities that are so impoverished and the ones that are traditionally now being more affected by COVID-19, the Hispanic, the Latin American communities, and the ones that are traditionally now being more affected by COVID-19, the Hispanic, the Latin American communities, and the African American Native communities. These are the ones that are the most affected. Well, it's like, yes, it affects all communities of color and all economically suppressed communities. But it really goes far deeper than just, you know,

impacted by government foods in the tribal community, because we're talking about, you know, decades long, you know, systemic governmental system that, you know, imposed themselves on a community that was relying on the lands, you know, because it also impacted all of our natural resources. So we're talking about a much greater issue where, you know, all the dams that were put in place that uh restricted or choked down our river systems and cut our supply to uh omega-3 omega-6 foods oils that would would have been you know a huge part of our diet uh and the fact that we were not able to leave the reservations

to go and hunt and fish you know that restrict our access to certain foods, amino acids in our deer, all these nutrients that really would have helped us along the way that we thrived on for so many generations. And being cut off to having access to all of this, including the simple elements like clean water. All of our water was polluted. And so when you get that with the chemical contaminants, the toxic waste that was in our water system, yes, that's going to greatly impact our health and then the after effects. So we have all of these issues that we're dealing with because everything's been polluted for the sake of corporate greed and all these developments. But we're trying to get back to that. And of course, the indigenous communities are fighting because we've always been natural resources stewards and ambassadors and we know that our relationship to the land is really what is going to effectively heal us so we're trying

to come back to that healing way that healing relationship again and it's taken some time because our people we you, we held on to gathering our roots, our old medicines, we had still held on to those ceremonies. But now we got to come another step forward and get back to replenishing our river systems, because even those river systems are still affected. And we have not been able to get those numbers back up because that was a huge part of our diet. You know you know, the wild life populations that are getting sick or overwrought with, you know, disease because of their, you know, there's a lot of issues, I would say.

It's all across the board. But that is something we have to try to. Is there insight that the food is actually making them sick, that it's the thing that's causing the problem? I would say, well, it could be that. I found in some African-American communities in poor white, they just don't connect the dots between what they're eating and why they're sick.

I would say a lot of that is true because of the, you know, looking at historically what has been taken away from our people as, you know, a simple diet structure. And then you fast forward to today. Yeah. Yeah. We, we had, we were forced to eat government subsidized foods that were lacking all kinds of nutrients. They were just, you know, like you talked about the medicine man who was eating these unhealthy foods into his ceremony, but that's all he had.

You know, we didn't have access to these other foods that were nutrient dense because he was restricted. And often that's because of the placement of the government or the government cutting off those resources for the tribal community. So he didn't have access for sure, but it's almost like he didn't realize that what he was eating wasn't the traditional food. And that was the part where it was this cognitive leap for him to go, wow, this is stuff that's not our traditional. This is white people's food, right? And I think that was sort of shocking to me

because it felt like unless that internalized racism, in a sense, gets removed, it's going to be hard for people to say, we don't want this anymore. Like, we don't want our sodas. We don't want the fried bread. We don't want whatever we're eating. And I think, you know, I've seen this, you know, across poor or minority communities across America. And I think it's an obstacle in my mind because it limits people's feeling of being empowered to make a difference. You know, they don't see themselves

as being victimized by that. They just think it's okay. And how do you root that out? I think that's a question I've struggled with a long time. And I'd love to hear what you think about it. Well, I think it goes back again to reconnecting our people to the old ways, and I think that's why there are other communities who are talking about this who are getting back to their roots. For those of us who have not lost that connection, we're still going out to gather roots,

and we're still going out fishing and hunting, and we're doing all these things to ensure that our systems are are replenished and our needs are met and i see that while there are folks who still struggle with that you know some communities because they did adapt to you know certain foods like fried bread or sugary sodas and you know there are other others who are just reclaiming their traditional element their indigenous roots and they're getting back to that too. So I cannot say that everyone is adhering to it because they're starting to realize, like, okay, this is hurting us more than helping us.

It's making our children sick and obese, and we have to now get back to organic foods and growing our own, which is why the culture and the element of food sovereignty is growing in our communities. And people understand that we have to start either growing our own foods or buying organic foods and eliminate genetically modified foods from our system or eliminate more sugars or processed foods. But understand that where many of our communities are, they're often in food deserts or they're in locations where the grocery market offers very little produce and natural foods and it's all mostly processed foods. So a lot of these communities are really challenged by their geographical location. They have to drive an hour out to, you know, get to a farmer's market or get to a whole foods market where they're able to have sustainable foods that are

going to be more healing than what the foods that they're offered within their small community. That's very remote. Yeah, no, I lived on two reservations. I lived on the Hopi reservation for a while and the Nez Perce reservation, and it definitely was a food desert. And I think that was sort of shocking to me that it was really difficult to find real food and that there was really no access to things that were going to help them promote health. And, um, you know, I, I had to drive, you know, 50 miles each way, uh, to get, you know, quality food. And, you know, you do that once every few weeks, it was really challenging. And if you don't have the access, you know have the resources, you don't have a car. I mean, it's

really pretty challenging. So I'm sort of encouraged to think about bringing these conversations into the political discourse, because once we start to talk about them, you know, we force people to talk about it. And I think the other day, Joe Biden had a town hall with Jose Andres, who's a chef talking about the issues of food and food insecurity. And I think it was the first time really that I've seen in a political campaign where the issue of food is really brought to the forefront. And to me, it's one of the most central things because food connects to agriculture and health. And you put all those things together and you've got some of the biggest issues of America and also some of the biggest solutions, which is so exciting.

Well, you know, and I think that's great that he did that because right now when people are stuck in their homes, they're talking about the COVID diet and most people are walking, you know, having gained 20 pounds or more. Yeah, the COVID-19, they call it. Yeah, and I find that interesting because I know people are now thinking more about what they're putting into their bodies now more than ever because they're starting to see, okay, I have to cook now in food. And I want to cook on a holistic sense and get back to eating healthy and not having to be on the go and driving and not having much time. And, you know, all our time really does get spent being in transit, going somewhere to and from, but it's nice to be home and get to focus on what you put on your plate.

And I think that really does change the way we think too. So this is, it is a blessing in disguise in some ways because we're starting to take a healthcare and think of food in a whole different sense and we're rebuilding that relationship up in a positive way as I am with my own kids. But that, yeah, that portion of wanting to have or cook organically, that's become a staple here in my household.

So, yeah. So how has this whole COVID-19 pandemic changed you and your family and your thinking about your own health and the world itself? Well, you know, I guess what it does ultimately is it humbles us. You know, it humbles us to refocus and to get back to square one. And so for me, it's starting to be more of a reminder, a reminder to slow down, you know, and then to recenter so that we can connect spiritually.

And, you know, that's not the easiest thing to do, but for us being out in nature, that's why we connect more with nature. I feel like that's what this is doing. It's slowing everything down so that we can get back to focus. And once we are able to focus again, then we can start to see what our real purpose is here. And, you know, look at everything that's happening. And I think that's really what has been the problem is, you know, we've all been distracted, you know, from the hectic work life to, you know, the drama and politics and everything else.

And now we're able to slow down and see the beauty of this opportunity of being here on this planet in this lifetime and taking care of each other and loving one another and, you know, being able to be forgiving and to be healed by nature. I'm just thankful for this time. It's a good time for all of us to be healed by nature. I'm just thankful for this time. It's a good time for all of us to be grateful. But that's what I've been experiencing with my own sons.

Yeah. It's almost like God gave us all a big time out as humanity for misbehaving. And we've got to go to our room and think about what we're doing and how we need to maybe rethink what we want to be after. Because I don't think we want to go back to what was normal. Normal wasn't good for any of us. So this crazy way we're living, the rapacious way that our economy was going, the growing disparities,

the increasing burdens of disease, the economic impact of it. I mean, all these problems, now it becomes so evident. I mean, it's like I heard stories of people, you know in brazil where like the the water is clearing up and dolphins are coming back and animals are coming back it's almost like you know when chernobyl uh happened you know everybody left and now

there's this amazing documentary with the i think david attenborough about how chernobyl has become this incredible lush ecological system with animals all over and trees. It's like a nature preserve. It's pretty wild. I don't know if they're all glowing in the dark, but it's amazing how, you know, stopping for a minute, we can kind of look at what we want as humanity going forward. I think this is a very important moment for us historically. And I think voices like yours are really important to bring these issues out there, talk about things that really matter about community, about, you know, food, about the

social determinants, about healthcare, agriculture. These are things that I think are more and more important in the political conversation. And I'm just so happy that you're out there talking about these things. And I think whether you're Republican or Democrat, it doesn't matter. These issues need to be talked about. They affect all of us. It doesn't matter who you are. And I think I just appreciate that we're going to be able to have these conversations going forward over the next months. And I think, really thank you for your dedication and service, because it's not easy being in politics these days. So really grateful for you. Thank you, Mark. And you're absolutely right. I'm

thankful that you understand, you know, what the world really could and should look like with everything that we've discussed from healthcare to our natural resources and the environment and the fiscal impacts, everything that's in place right now. But getting back to the point, you know, I'm happy to be talking about it and bringing this conversation to politics. People need to know that politics now more than ever impacts their lives. So leadership matters. And that's why I'm here. Politics is not fun for anybody.

But when you look at it, it does impact a lot of good things. And we want to make sure that we're protecting nature and protecting humanity. And that's really what it gets down to. to well thank you for talking about these issues we need to talk more about them i've been out there with our food fix campaign trying to get politicians to really understand these issues and i'm excited to be able to sort of have these conversations so thank you so much for being on the doctor's pharmacy i hope you listening live love this conversation and if you loved it please share it with your friends and family on social media, leave a comment. We'd love to hear from you subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and we'll see you next time on the doctor's pharmacy. Hey everybody, it's Dr. Hyman.

Thanks for tuning into The Doctor's Pharmacy. I hope you're loving this podcast. It's one of my favorite things to do and introducing you to all the experts that I know and I love and that I've learned so much from. And I want to tell you about something else I'm doing, which is called Mark's Picks. It's my weekly newsletter. And in it, I share my favorite stuff

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