The Dr. John Delony Show - Can a Marriage Survive a Loss of Faith?

Episode Date: October 28, 2022

Today, we’re talking with: - A wife unsure of how to move forward in her marriage after her husband’s decision to leave their faith - A man hoping to learn how to best support his girlfriend when she’s in the middle of a panic attack - A woman wondering why a man she’s expressed romantic interest in isn’t returning the gesture Lyrics of the Day: "Fix You" - Coldplay Let us know what’s going on by leaving a voicemail at 844.693.3291 or visiting johndelony.com/show.  Support Our Sponsors: BetterHelp DreamCloud Churchill Mortgage Thorne Add products to your cart create an account at checkout Receive 25% off ALL orders Resources: Own Your Past, Change Your Future Questions for Humans Conversation Cards Redefining Anxiety Quick Read John’s Free Guided Meditation Listen to all The Ramsey Network podcasts anytime, anywhere in our app. Download at: https://apple.co/3eN8jNq These platforms contain content, including information provided by guests, that is intended for informational and entertainment purposes only. The content is not intended to replace or substitute for any professional medical, counseling, therapeutic, financial, legal, or other advice. The Lampo Group, LLC d/b/a Ramsey Solutions as well as its affiliates and subsidiaries (including their respective employees, agents and representatives) make no representations or warranties concerning the content and expressly disclaim any and all liability concerning the content including any treatment or action taken by any person following the information offered or provided within or through this show. If you have specific concerns or a situation in which you require professional advice, you should consult with an appropriately trained and qualified professional expert and specialist. If you are having a health or mental health emergency, please call 9-1-1 immediately. Learn more about your ad choices. https://www.megaphone.fm/adchoices Ramsey Solutions Privacy Policy

Coming up on the Dr. John Deloney Show. When COVID hit, my husband had some legit questions. He's decided that the Mormon Church is not legitimate and it's not true. It was just something about my children of like, they're going to believe anything I tell them. And that really caused a lot of like self-reflection of just like well why do i believe what i believe right what up what up what up this is john with the dr john deloney show greatest mental health and relationship and parenting podcast ever recorded or if you're watching us on youtube i mean easily the best youtube show ever um i think there's 12 billion youtube shows so if you're watching us on YouTube, I mean, easily the best YouTube show ever. I think there's 12 billion YouTube shows.

So if you're with us, thank you so much for spending your time with us. If you want to be on the show, give me a buzz. 1-844-693-3291. 1-844-693-3291. And you can leave a message and Jenna will give you a call back. And please don't forget to share the episode and leave your five-star reviews. If you have two-star reviews, call your mother-in-law and tell her. She's giving you a two-star performance so far. See how that goes for Christmas.

That will be excellent. And huge news. Huge news. uh huge news huge news number one ben this weekend was battle the bands here at ramsey solutions the parent company i work for and there's about what 1100 employees here and it's some of the most talented people on the planet people everyone comes to nashville to make it and then at some point we all have to get real jobs and so there's this building full of incredible drummers and guitarists and keyboardists and singers and programmers and all kinds of things. Rappers, if you're B-Hoo. Anyway, we brought the thunder this week.

It was incredible, right? Oh, it was unforgettable. We melted faces. Exactly. It's depressing to say that's the highlight of 2022 for me. It's the same. It's true. I've got a family. We've had a great year. We sold

made number one best of all easily. I bought my first house this year and Battle of the Bands was better than that. Dude. As an outsider, I can say it was so much fun. That was fun. Yeah. That was fun.

And if you're watching this, I'm hoping to have Sarah put some pictures of it. Oh, yeah, yeah. So check out YouTube. My wife, Sheila, showed up. And for those of you, like y'all always think I'm kidding. She's never listened to a single show. She's just like, hey, you go do your thing. Like she just says, perform me, John.

She says it just oogs her out. She likes compliant, do the dishes, John. That's her favorite version of me. And she showed up. She came. And she just smiled the whole time. And she was like, that's the guy that I married a long time ago. I remember that guy.

And my favorite thing was at the end of the show, everyone was leaving. And by the way, there's like 2000 people. Cause everyone's got a plus one. It's just a chaotic mayhem of a mess. It's just a blast. And some people came and they said, was it so fun to be able to cut loose like that? And I said, listen, that's what my poor wife has to deal with every week. The version you all see on the podcast is a very Xanaxed out version of myself. I don't take Xanax, but it's a very chill professional. This is as professional as it gets. Anyway, and then yesterday, Sunday morning, I'm putting my shoes on,

and my daughter, Josephine, who's six, walks in my room and stares me down for a second, and she says, I will fight you. I didn't know why she said that, but then we fought, and I did not fare so well. All right, let's go to Christy in San Antonio. What's up, Christy? Hello. How we doing? Good morning. I'm good. Sorry, I have a little bit of a cold. Oh, no, it's all good.

How are you? I'm good. Really good. Just enjoying the weather finally cooling down here in San Antonio. Very cool. I was in Houston yesterday, and it was much warmer than it is here in Nashville. Hopefully, you guys will get some more cool weather coming. I hope so. You know, 80s is better than a hundred. So I can hang with that for a few months. 80s. That's like the depth of winter for San Antonio. So how can I help?

What's up? All right. So I, I'm so grateful you were willing to take our call. I love your show. And so I have a wonderful, amazing husband and we have three beautiful kids. And we met in the Mormon church. We married in the Mormon church. We're very Mormon. We are very, if I had a t-shirt company, I would make a shirt that just said, we are very Mormon. We are very, if I had a t-shirt company, I would make a shirt that just said, we are very Mormon. Yeah. Because, hey, here's what's funny. I'm not Mormon

and I know exactly what you mean. It's so great. So good. Yeah, when people see me, you know, when I make friends with people, they're like, yeah, you had a Mormon vibe. So, you know, that's me, I guess. Very cool. Fortunately or unfortunately, you get to pick.

There you go. So you are very, y'all, y'all, the gang is very Mormon. Yeah, we're in it. We both serve missions and yeah, we just, yeah, we are in it. So about, yeah, so when COVID hit, you know, we stopped going to church, and my husband had some legit questions. And so the past couple of years, he's been looking into our history and things like that. And recently, he's kind of put a firm stop to that, meaning he's decided that the Mormon church is not legitimate, and it's not true, and there's a lot of, you know, just strange, awful things that happened in our history, embarrassing things. Sure.

And I totally understand where he's coming from. I just have a different perspective than he does. And so I want to keep going, but I'm willing to work with themselves and kind of come to an understanding on their own of what their personal beliefs are. I think beliefs are very personal, and it should be a personal journey. So I'm willing to do that, but we keep on hitting this wall of, you know, he just really has a hard time with us continuing to go.

There's just a lot of things that, you know, when one parent doesn't really believe, sometimes they say, well, let's pray for your parent, you know, little things like that. And he just doesn't want to be painted as a bad figure. And to me, that's something that we have control over as parents. And we get to decide, you to decide how our children view us, and we have to talk about things that they're taught or that they hear, etc., and we get a voice. I think he feels a little differently.

Sure. having a hard time respecting my desire to want to keep going. Um, when he's just had such a hard time with, um, you know, his side of things. Does he have a personal experience that has emerged? Uh,

because of it. Yeah. I mean, he served a mission and it was not positive for him. He was very down his whole mission. Um, I don't think he's ever, I don't think he's ever drank the Kool-Aid.

Okay. If that makes sense. Yeah, totally. Totally. He's always looked at everyone and be like, this is, you know,

this is kind of weird, but maybe I just need to try a little harder kind of thing. Yep. I think he's always kind of viewed it that way. I could be wrong. What do you, so you've, you said he's got very valid questions, very valid concerns. When you say you have a different perspective, I heard it said this way once. I have a close friend who's just an extraordinary theology professor and very much an atheist. And we sat by each other in church, and I asked him once, like, why do you still come?

And he said something that was profound. He said, this is my ethnicity. He said, this is my culture. This is when I walk into this building, I exhale. I feel at home here. Even though I don't buy everything that's coming from the pulpit, I still believe in the positivity and I still believe in community and I still believe in stopping every week to remember. So he had really dove deep and found a way to continue the practices while also having different thoughts. Why do you feel it's important to continue to go? Because here's where this is important. If ultimately you and your husband land on different cosmic beliefs, meaning there is a truck coming down the highway, and if we don't push our kids out of the way, they're going to get hit by this truck. Yeah.

If our kids don't go to this particular building and are not baptized in this particular denomination, this particular way, and they are going to spend eternity burning in hell or whatever the cosmic punishment is in the Mormon church, then we have to address that. And if the other person says, this is all crazy, none of this is real, now you're going to have a problem. If it's like my buddy, if this is simply, this is where I feel comfortable, this is where I feel safe, this is all I know, and I'm not interested in blowing up everything. That's a different conversation because that is, we're going to practice. We're going to have, you see what I'm saying? We can, we can slowly expand that circle. That's different. So where are you in this conversation? So, you know, it's interesting. I think some Mormons probably do think if they, their children don't get baptized then, or they don't get married in the temple, then they're going to, you know, who knows? They're not, they're not going to make it eternally., I mean, I just, like, I love the Book of Mormon. I think it's inspired.

Okay. I think God can inspire men in lots of different areas, but this particular church just speaks to me, and it is my home. Absolutely. I was raised in it. But just the doctrines, if you take away all the history and just have the doctrine, it makes a lot of sense. If you take away all those things that one coach did, man, those plays you drew up are great. There's messed up history, and I don't have the answers to that either. There's messed up history in every organization that's ever existed.

Right. Let's be honest. Every organization. Yeah. So here's the, here's the listener plot twist. Brandon's on the other line. Do you know this Christy? Yeah, I think he said that he wanted to join. Okay. So I want to make sure this isn't like a Jerry Springer, like where we gotcha. Okay. So I want to make sure this isn't like a Jerry Springer, like where we got you. Okay. All right. So I'm going to, I know.

Yeah. Uh, Jenna, can you, you bring them both in Brandon? You there? I'm here, John.

What's up, man? Just say, I wish this was a Jerry Springer situation. So great. You are not the father, Brandon. Hey,

so, um, Christie has walked us through and you've probably been listening um i'd love to hear your side of what's going on yeah i mean a lot of what she said is pretty valid uh telling the story i think like you know sometime during covid there's definitely a little uh tension in our marriage about how we're teaching our kids because she would you know want to teach my children things and i for some reason started to feel kind of uncomfortable like it's just something about my children of like they're going to believe anything i tell them and that really caused a lot of like self-reflection of just like well why do i

believe what i believe right and so hey hey hold. Good parenting for both of you. Like, good parenting for... Both of y'all seem to understand that, hey, these kids are impressionable, and we need to be intentional about what we're passing along to them. Good for you. That's incredible. Oh, thanks, man. Thanks.

All right, so I interrupted you. Go ahead. No, you're fine. But yeah, that just kind of caused a real questioning thing of like, well, you know, do I really want to tell my kids this if I don't really, you know, know for sure. Cause it's, it's more of like, I'm a, I'm a good kid. I did whatever my parents told me, you know, I didn't really ever question anything before. Like, yeah, a lot of stuff was weird and that's fine. I, you know, I grew up in an area where there weren't a lot of people in my face.

So like, I kind of knew that, you know, we're kind of weird in some ways, and that's fine. But yeah, it just sort of caused this trickle effect of really questioning, like, well, what do I believe? Why do I do it? And I just didn't want to give my kids, like, tell them all these things and give them all this baggage if it wasn't right, right? So that's what caused me to dig into it, and it's been, I'd say, the biggest aspect that's difficult through that thing is just I feel differently now. And that wasn't what I signed up for and wanted. That wasn't the answer I wanted. This is a very inconvenient, annoying thing that is taxing on a variety of levels. But at the core of what we're saying, we're trying to do what's best for our kids. And I think, I think for me, the hardest aspect is I really want to respect, you know, like what my wife's talking about of like meet 50-50 or respect what she's saying. But like, I feel like I'm just disrespecting her in that process of like, well, yeah, she's telling you all this, but this isn't how it is because of this. And that's, that's where I feel like I'm making her out to be some kind of villain.

And why at the same time, kind of how I was taught, how I was raised in this church of, we have, this is what you think, this is your salvation. It's completely contradictory, right?

Like they're going to be told that, you know, the exact opposite of what I think. And so that's where I just feel a lot of times just like stuck of like, well, how do we navigate this? How can I respect her and her beliefs? Cause I want to do so that's where I just feel a lot of times just like stuck of like, well, how do we navigate this? How can I respect her and her beliefs? Cause I want to do so while also not giving them things that they don't

necessarily need to go down just for a difficult reason, if that makes sense. Absolutely. All right. Um, since both of you are on the phone, this is, this is rare for me.

I love this because I can actually have both of you on here. Um, I want to throw two grenades into the middle of the couch you're sitting on. And let me know if I'm off. Okay. Here's grenade number one. Brandon, I don't think you've believed for a long, long time. True or false?

It was like I was forcing myself to. So, I mean, there's definitely some validity into what you're saying. But I never questioned it. I just kept thinking why I don't feel this way is because I'm not following things correctly. You're not good enough. Yeah. Yeah, I've been doing this for a very long time. And the reason I didn't have a strong confirmation of that is because I just guess I wasn't trying enough. Okay. But no, that's, that's a fair grenade, but like, it's not,

yeah, it's not exactly like that, but to an extent, sure. So when people lose their faith or when they deconstruct it, or they begin to pull apart what they've been told their whole lives, or like you mentioned, I just never questioned it. I kind of rolled my eyes that I did what was the, I did the next thing in front of me um and by the way this happens with um some people find themselves two kids into a marriage at seven years old and like what am i doing like i just did the next thing in front of me some people do find that professionally and they find themselves an associate vice president at a company they don't care at all about in a job that they hate. So faith is an integral part of us, right?

And by the way, I believe that David Foster Wallace, there's no such thing as an atheist. You worship something, whether it's science or CrossFit or some sort of deity. You worship – everybody worships something, your diet, whatever it is. So it can often feel deceptive. Like one of y'all, like you lied to me, or you're not who I thought I married. Or if you really go back and say, you know, I don't think I ever really bought into this. I just did it because I was a good compliant kid, but I don't ever believe in fill in the blank. It's easy for Christie to then go, well, who did I attach my wagon to? Right? Like I signed up for something that you weren't right. So there can be this, this picture of dishonesty. So before we go further, I want to make sure both

of y'all are on the same page it doesn't sound like there's anybody tricked anybody or bait and switched anybody are we both on all everybody on the same page on that one yeah yeah this is a legitimate i'm growing right which is a which is a challenge that all marriages face um all right so here's the here's the second grenade. Brandon, I would be willing to bet, and again, I love it when I'm wrong, so tell me I'm wrong, that all this focus on your kids is an easy place to put marital tension. Like, we've got to do this for the kids. We've got to fix this for the kids. We've got to get the right answers for the kids. We've got to be consistent for the kids. Let's us avoid looking across the table at the woman or man that we love and say,

I'm losing respect for you. I can't imagine how you could believe this. You're not as smart as I thought you were, like really deep-seated, challenging questions. Am I right or am I off? So more or less, like we're putting children first and marriage second, and because of that, I'm thinking less of my wife. Is that the question? No. Spending a lot of energy worrying about the kids allows you to avoid the person sitting in front of you. I mean, I think there's a little bit of that, like when you're talking about like how can you think that, but like I really think I'd say the arguments turned into a little bit of us more than the kids in some ways

so Kristen, what do you think? Or Christy, what do you think? I want to say ding ding ding ding ding ding I think I do, I think that and honestly I think at the core of why we're stuck because I do. I think that, and honestly, I think at the core of why we're stuck, because I do feel like I, it doesn't matter what I decide, we're stuck because Brendan has lost respect for me. Because I'm reading the same material as him and I'm coming up with different answers.

And he thinks my answers mean that I am brainwashed. And so if I go all the way out, I can't, I'm lying to my children because I don't believe that, I don't believe that the church is false. If I stay partially in and allow Brandon to be himself and teach his things as well as me, and we kind of go forward together with different beliefs, but we show respect. I feel like I'm not going to get the same respect that I can give him.

What do you think about that, Brandon? Yeah, no, I understand that. Yeah, I think those feelings and that's part of what we're struggling with, is coming up with a good answer for that. And it sounds like a lot of that comes on me. Okay. So a very common path, and it's kind of a buzzword right now, deconstruction. My friend Justin McRoberts is doing some extraordinary coaching work with folks who are, quote-unquote, deconstructing their faith, whatever that looks like. He's awesome.

He's a great thinker along those lines. And if you go back to scripture, actually, and I don't want to be preachy, but I think Jesus was the first one that talks about deconstruction. You've heard it was said this way, but I tell you this, right? So you thought it was this way. I telling you it looks like this right and that's all throughout scripture um Part of the deconstruction process is becoming untethered And to what you know to your routines to the cosmos and then you have this series season of shame What an idiot I was and then there's a season of anger like i'm pissed

off at my parents at the church and then it's easy to when we find feel ashamed and we feel angry one of the great soothing band-aids over shame and anger is to blame somebody to go after them and we start going to war with our heritage, with the people who did evil things, which every group on planet earth has evil people in their past. We start getting down that road. And then after we feel some superiority of blame, we feel intellectually superior. I feel this way because I'm smarter than you and you're dumb. And that's where relationships get in a mess. When somebody starts looking down at,

the word Christy said, I feel disrespected, or I feel like you're losing respect in her. That's where I want to spend most of your focus. Here's the deal with your kids. One of the greatest gifts you can give your kids is to acknowledge openly and honestly, here's the adventure that I'm on. I think four of the greatest words in the English language for a parent to a child is the words, I changed my mind. I used to believe this and now I believe this. And in a year or two,

I may believe something a little bit different. And here's where I'm headed. And here's why I'm headed that way. So the obsession or the panic about having the right answer to give our kids, or we're going to screw them up, make no mistake, you're going to give them baggage, dude. What you want to do is to be able to teach them, model for them. When you have baggage, regardless of how it got there, whether it's a coach or a teacher or a girlfriend that dumps you or some mean boy or somebody who abuses you or whatever, life will give you bricks in your backpack. You'll get baggage. This is what it looks like to be in relationship with somebody. And both of y'all figure that out. So in my house, my wife and I both identify as Christian. We both go to the same church.

We have radically different beliefs on certain topics, certain issues. Like she, my wife will roll her eyes when I try to explain something. And I can't roll my eyes that well, but I'll be like, I just think you're missing the boat on this. And so we have a similar value structure, but we have very different beliefs in our house. And my friends who identify in the same, who go to the same church as me, we have very different beliefs.

We have very different beliefs on how, I've got friends that cannot believe I work where I work. I've got one friend and I love her to death. And she's like, every time I listen to your podcast, I just want to yell at you because you're so wrong on all these things, right? So that's just like that to me I don't there's not a disrespect there. It would be disrespectful if they weren't honest with me. Um, So here's my concern brandon

That you are taking a moral superior high ground And that's a dangerous place to be do you feel yourself going there and i only say that because i've been there too like i look at other people like you're dumb for not believing x y and z right uh yeah sure is there a way to model for your kids um this is what changing beliefs look like i was taught this as a kid, as I've gotten older. I don't believe this anymore. Here are some really great things that I took from this though. I do think a weekly practice is good. I do think community is good. I do think singing is good. Is there a way to find the good or is it just scorched earth for you?

Yeah. I mean, I think there is a way to find find the good in it I mean because more than anything it matters to Christy so I you know want to support her in that and and you know not have her disabandon something just because I no longer think that way I think like my struggle is I just reflect back on my own life and why I think the way I do and the teachings that are taught. And it's like, man, I just feel there's a lot of harm. And so I got to find a way to know that the parental view is going to have more of a sway than what teachers and leaders are teaching them, right? Well, and Christy, this is where it's really important. He said an important word.

I think this is harming our kids and belief in a higher power belief in love belief in salvation belief in value and worth there's no harm there belief certain things being communicated um that harm your kids that's where you christy have to sit down and say, I think our kids are being hurt. Or y'all are going to have to find some sort of common value there or some sort of common language there. Here's what I really want you to spend your energy moving forward. Less on worrying about the kids. They are going to pick up the marital tension.

They're going to pick up, Brandon, when y'all get ready for church, the huffing and puffing and the eye rolling and the, they're going to pick up way more on that than they are some Sunday school teacher telling them some weird thing about some weird whatever. They're going to pick way more up Christy sitting there in church by herself

or not going and her huffing and puffing around the house. They're gonna you see what i'm saying? They're gonna absorb that tension much more than being open about Here's where we're going here's why we're doing this I used to believe this I was taught this I don't really agree with this I believe this and they're gonna tell you this today Um, I don't I don't believe that I believe And at some point, y'all have a conversation about, here's where we're going to end up. There is no smooth, simple way forward. The only path y'all have forward is to agree that we're going to do this together.

And that if anybody feels morally superior, anybody feels I've got to call a timeout, that you feel empowered to do that. And it's real easy to suddenly not be able to do that anymore. Is that fair? Yeah. So when you say a timeout, meaning like when the respect isn't fully there, we just call a timeout on the discussion and circle back. Well, it's you, Christyy being able to say i feel like you think i'm stupid right now yeah or brandon you're back on your high horse again i know

i know that they're gonna say this and i disagree um and brandon you giving her permission right she gets to decide when she's disrespected and and vice versa you get to decide hey this this is going to harm our kids i'm telling you i've experienced harm from these messages or this particular message it scares me to put our kids back in that and christy you got to hear that okay right and merging cultures is hard changing minds is hard changing beliefs is hard. Changing minds is hard. Changing beliefs is hard. It works best when we can do this together.

And what I don't want to see you is y'all lose your marriage over this. Are you both in? Oh yeah. You know, Christie's like, oh yeah. And Brandon's like, I mean,

I'm just, I'm messing with you, dude. I'm messing with you. Brandon, let me ask you one more quick question. Are you out completely of all faith? Are you done with it? No, no faith, no. It's, I mean, there's obviously like multi-levels of deconstructing what's going on. Once you feel you've kind of been led astray, it's like, well, now do I want to explore my faith in Jesus,

my faith in Christianity, my faith in the Bible? And like, I'm trying to like, just pull the brakes on that really hard because that stuff does matter to me and it's been forming for me and important. And I want my children to have that. How are you doing your... Do you have people walking alongside you in this?

Are you watching a lot of YouTube? That's a great question. I'm not a YouTube guy. I'm definitely like the only person I know who doesn't watch YouTube on a regular basis. Good for you. Well, thank you, I guess. A lot of it comes from like the initial aspects of it.

There's like, for example, this has obviously probably been a pretty common issue with numerous faiths is people questioning stuff and whatever. Um, and so I tried to stay pretty basic on far as far as from like initial research on it. Uh, like the church itself has a link on their website of troubling things about their past. And so in this whole process, like I know, like in the back of everyone's mind, mine included, it's like, is this always what I wanted? Like, have I always doubted? But like, I've really, like in this process, tried really hard to stay where I am because, you know, trust me then I'd read that. I was never taught that. And then I'd like click on all the source material link through, you know, deep, uh, how would I call it? There's like archives of all kinds of information of posts.

And I would read like the whole thing and I just finding more stuff and then just being like, am I in a Netflix documentary? Like what is going on? Okay. So I'd read all these apologist books. Like, I read one book. I tried. It was hundreds of pages, and I got, like, 13 hours through the audio book, and it just, like, kept opening up more and more stuff.

It was like, it really felt like I was watching, like, that Netflix documentary. It's like, wait, am I in this? And so that's really, like, how this has kind of formed and started. And, like, yeah, now there's, every now and then, there's other things I come across or things that pop up that I'm more open to reading where in the past I was taught, oh, this person's view. I've heard the name and they're the devil or whatever. Here's your homework.

Yeah. This weekend, yesterday, I flew to Texasxas for a funeral did a day day trip and um one of my family members passed away it was a hard day and the the small little chapel was packed and i heard stories about my family that I didn't know. And I saw family members I haven't seen in a long time, and I was like, whoa. And I learned things and heard things and saw things. And if I had read that in a book,

it would have been very easy to depersonalize it, to see it in black and white. And hearing these stories in the context of everybody getting together in communion and community and love and grief and sadness and we laughed like crazy and we shared a meal together, it provided a new context. So here's your homework. I want you to stop going down the information rabbit holes. That stuff's really important. But I want you to spend some time talking with people who've walked away from their faith, talking people in the Christian faith or in the Mormon faith,

I don't care who, talk to wise people. And stop trying to absorb all of this by yourself with data. And we have completely, in my opinion, ruined faith with info. We've just gone down a rabbit hole of data and info and this and that. And we've

completely lost the communal aspect to this, the wisdom nature of the conversation across all different faiths. So I want you to put down the reading for a bit, put down the podcast for a bit, put down the documentaries for a bit. And I want you to spend a season talking to people listening saying hey i'm about i think i've lost everything and i think i'm i'm i feel like i'm hurting my wife i feel like i'm hurting my kids i don't want to i want to love them but i can't keep doing this anymore and spend some season and wise counsel and let's start there and christy and brandon both of you the a thanks for calling and being open i know this is very very hard and by the way this is the united states right now homes

are dividing over do we go to church i'm not going to that church anymore this church i don't believe in anymore i don't believe in any of it anymore i'm at the church of vegan whatever or the church of crossfit or the church of starbucks or whatever. We're seeing it just shift in our country. And I want people to circle back to the core relationship first. Who are we? Who do we believe? What do we believe? Why do we believe it? What practices back up that belief? How do we live those practices out throughout the week? What are we going to pass along to our kids? All of those things are critical and important.

But let's start with a central core mission. We're going to keep our marriage strong. And I promise to honor you. You promise to honor me. I'm going to do the best I can to meet your needs. And I'm going to do the best I can. I want you to do the best you can to meet my needs. And I won't keep secrets. I'm going to do the best I can to meet your needs. And I'm going to do the best I can. I want you to do the best you can to meet my needs. And I won't keep secrets. I'm going to tell the truth. And I'm not going to think I'm better than you or morally or intellectually

superior to you. And also when I say, hey, this scares me or this hurts, I need you to listen to me. We're going to start there. And then we're going to surround ourselves with wise counsel. There are five, 10, 15, 20 years ahead of us on this deconstruction journey. Let's go that route. Let's go that route. And my promise is over time, the conversation will shift from a matter of doctrine and a matter of this and that to a matter of peace and connectivity. And all of a sudden, the whole conversation about faith opens up in a way that is so much bigger than any of us could have ever imagined. Thank you all for being brave and having this conversation. I'm grateful for you.

We'll be right back. All right, let's go to Trey in H-Town. What's up, Trey? What's going on, Doug? Good morning. How are you? I'm excellent, my brother. How are you?

I'm doing well. I'm doing well. And I'm honored that you're taking my call. And I can't thank you enough for all the guidance and help you've provided, not only for myself, but the rest of your listeners as well. You got it, my man. What's up, dude? My question to you is, do you have any advice or guidance on how to help a loved one while they're experiencing a panic slash anxiety attack when you're with them during that vulnerable time? You should call my wife, dude. She had to sit with me when I was a mess, man. Tell me what's going on. Well, my girlfriend, she's had a couple, she averages a couple of week and some are minor, but some are pretty major. Almost to the point of some sort of, I don't want to say paralysis,

but the hands cramp, feet cramp up, lock up, and then her body just gets exhausted. Um, you know, it's hurting sleep. It's, you know, doing it, it's, it's the whole gamut of things. So, you know, I've, I've experienced a few myself. Um, and I know what it feels like. I don't wish that upon anybody. I just, I just feel pretty helpless to be honest with you. So we're just seeing if I could seek your advice. And if you have any thoughts on that, have you, I just, I just feel pretty helpless to be honest with you. So we're just seeing if I could seek your advice. And if you have any thoughts on that, have you, I mean, three a week is a lot. She needs to go seek medical attention if she hasn't already. She's seen a doctor. Uh, yes, I've, I've actually helped her get into a therapist as far as a doctor goes. Um, I haven't, I'm not sure if she's gone that route yet but i can definitely touch base with her yeah um that's a lot uh there's that there's a lot going on there um

so real quick panic attack is it comes out of nowhere it's sudden right you're driving and all of a sudden it's this is it i'm having the big heart attack and I'm out is what it feels like. And anxiety attacks are, they're slow builds generally, right? They build and build and build and build. It's like being in a vice until finally you just burst, right? Like if you took a Diet Coke and just put it in a vice and squeezed it until it finally exploded, right? What's the root of her panic and her anxiety? Honestly, doc, she, she unfortunately lost her niece unexpectedly a couple months ago. It was a, it was a traumatic deal. It was, it was very sad. It even affected me some to, to some degree, to be honest with you. So I don't know that, uh, that, that, that was dealt with. Um, and then I

had a couple of health scares myself, you know, about a month after that. So it kind of shifted the, um, the priority or the focus from her niece to myself. Um, and then, you know, getting through what I went through the, what I would call the gamut of doctor visits and all that good stuff. Um, then all of my results came back good. And then I think it just kind of is reopening that wound. That's, that's my personal opinion. I'm not a doctor. Um, but that's kind of what I'm, what I'm thinking. All right. Um, one of my favorite questions to ask guys who have, um, who are in a romantic relationship with somebody, what's going on is I want to get to how you answer the question.

And you answered it exactly how I would have answered it, exactly how I would have answered it. And I'm going to tell you that my guess is you are possibly contributing to this, which is awesome because that means you can be part of um, part of the solution. Is that cool? Yes, sir. Please. Um, so she, your, your, her, her niece died suddenly a few months ago. How many months ago? Uh, the end of July. Okay. So very recently. Yes, sir. Okay. The phrase you used and you may have just been spouting it out, but I want you to imprint this on your heart, okay? The phrase, she hadn't dealt with that, this will be something that's felt that ricochets through her for years. So this isn't like, hey, the check engine light came on and you need to go get the oil changed. And you just never went and got the oil changed.

That's not what this is. This is probably her brother or sister, right? Lost a child. She had an identity as an aunt. She had an identity as she was going to – like this is something she's thought through for years and years and years. And this little child suddenly passes away in a traumatic fashion. I mean, you see what I'm saying? So this is something that is now altered.

There's a before and after with her. try to fix that or solve that, the more it compresses her ability to, to feel it. And that shoots, it comes out of her body in all sorts of crazy ways, like locking it down or trying to fight something or trying to run from something. And though you've heard of the old fight or flight, right?

Yes. See what I'm saying? So what she's got to do, she's got to, I's got to i mean she's she's going to see a counselor i don't even like the words i don't something about your relational dynamic i i went and found her a counselor she's got to be willing to go get well see what i'm saying she's gonna have to walk through that that she's gonna have to walk through hell and you can be with her but she's got to walk through hell and you can be with her, but she's got to

make that walk. And the more you, um, make the calls for her, make sure she goes to all the appointments, check in. There's this strange reinforced helplessness that, that begins to cycle through. You see what I'm saying? Yes, sir. And you love her, don't you? Yes, sir. And you want to do everything you can to help. Absolutely. And it's so hard when the... Have you ever been to the weight room? Are you a weightlifter?

Yes, sir. Played college football, so very familiar. Okay. You understand this. Like, the spotter can really help. But the less the spotter touches the bar on on the bench press the stronger that guy is going to get right yes and so you want you don't want to see your person that you love crushed by this barbell and so it's easy to jump in there early help pick that bar up everybody feels like

they're winning i got the bar up. I'm tired. You got to help. But nobody's getting any stronger. See what I'm saying? Yes, sir. So I want you to not think of her as something to fix. She's not broken. Her body's doing exactly what it should be,

which is it has freaked out. And then you got sick. What happened with you, man? I had a, I don't remember the doctor term, but I fell over. I blacked out, hit my head, and then woke up in a pool of blood and then went through the whole gamut of doctors and did all the CT scans, brain scans, heart scan, all that good stuff. Haven't even passed that many tests in school, to be honest with you. Um, but, uh, but yeah, there was just a, uh, it was pretty, it was pretty up and down for the, for the three weeks following the, uh, or the month and a half following her niece passing away. So imagine her, like, let's take her cognitive functioning for a second. Let's put

that aside. Her body has just experienced a traumatic loss of her niece. And suddenly the person that she sees the rest of her life with falls over and hits his face on the ground. And you know as well as I do, all the doctors are like, well, it could be brain cancer. And it could, I mean, that's where they start, right? And it could be that you have an aneurysm. They go to the worst case scenario and work backwards. They don't often start with blood sugar or fainting or exhausted or hadn't eaten. They start with end of times.

Her body has already put a GPS pin in that trauma. Everything can go away at any second. Yes, sir. And then 60 days later, boom The man that she loves Might be going away too It doesn't surprise me one bit That her body is rattling through time and space right now

So whenever I hear somebody who's struggling with anxiety And by the way So I tell you, I tell you, she's not broken. She's not dysfunctional. She's not falling apart. What she needs is healing, not fixing. And those are two radically different words. Fixing is we've got to turn a wrench. I got to fix your meds. I got to adjust this up a little bit. I need to put your bone back in, like your shoulder back in the socket. Healing is, I'm going to come over and I'm just going

to sit there and hold your hand and we're going to write a letter to that little niece together. You see what I'm saying? And she's going to be a tearful, puddly mess and you're not going to say alright, alright, stop crying and you're not going to say alright alright stop crying

and you're not going to say any sort of you need to's or you should's none of that language yes sir you're just going to put your hand on the side of her face and you're going to hold her yes sir see what I'm saying and we're going to do this over and over

again and then we're going to go for a walk absolutely and what we're going to do this over and over again. And then we're going to go for a walk. Absolutely. And what we're doing is whenever somebody tells me that they're anxious, they're struggling with anxiety, here's the three places I go. Connection, safety, are you safe? Are you being abused? Are you in a toxic work environment? And autonomy. Do you have control over what happens next? And right now, autonomy has been completely stripped from her one almost two people who she loves just poof we're almost gone one of them was gone the other one almost was gone her body is telling her you have no control over anything

the second one is it's scary to find yourself completely alone to have your brother or sister lose a child and you don't know what to say. You don't know what to do. And the third one is everyone starts trying to fix you. Right. And your body gets disconnected when everyone's treating you like a widget, like a, like a dysfunctional lawnmower or a broken lawnmower.

And so what we're going to do is we're going to reintroduce connection back into this relationship, which means, and you're going to think, what are you talking about, dude? I talk to her all the time. We text all the time. I show up all the time. What you're doing is you're giving her information.

You're not connecting with her. Yes, sir. Okay. So here's your homework. Are you ready? Yes, sir. We're going to, today, when we get off the phone, I want you to spend some time writing her a letter, telling her how much you love her, telling her you're not going anywhere, man, telling her that you are going to stop trying to fix her and you're going to start being with her. And then I want you to read that letter to her face. Number two, I want you to ask her, not show up and tell her, ask her,

what do you need today? What do you need this week? And she might say, I don't know. I don't know. And you can say, well, I'm going to come over unless you tell me not to. I'm going to come over and I'm just going to sit with you. We can watch whatever you want to watch, read what you want to read, sing whatever you want to sing. I'm just going to sit with you. I'm not going to try to put the moves on you. I'm just going to come sit with you.

And here's what you do. When you show up, her body will do this. And when you ask her, hey, what do you need? You're going to slowly reintroduce autonomy to her. She's going to get some little bit of control back on the only thing on the planet she can control, which is her thoughts and her actions. And she can speak her needs out loud, and you can say, got it. I'm on it. We're going to stop parachuting in to solve all of her problems, and we're going to hold her hand while she stands up. And we are going to also – she needs to go see a doctor and make sure her heart's working, make sure she's okay. But it doesn't surprise me at all.

She needs to keep going to her counselor. And I'm willing to bet if you'll spend some time really grieving the loss of this little one, you being honest about how scared you were that you thought, man, this could be really scary. I might lose her. Be honest with her.

Tell her those words, Trey. I know it's not a cool Houston guy thing to say, but tell her I was scared. I thought you were going to lose me. And I don't want to lose you. Now we're not avoiding the hard stuff. We're getting right

in the middle of the grief and we're going to sit in it. We're going to own it. And what we're going to find out over the next two months, three months, six months is suddenly the light comes back on and her body goes, oh, you're connected. You're safe. You're driving again. We can stop with the anxiety. We can stop with the panic. So let's start there. She is really, really lucky to have you, my man. I'm grateful for you. We'll

be right back. It seems like everybody's talking about how crazy the housing market is right now and how powerless homebuyers feel. Mix that with the stress of moving and life change and job change, and you've got a tornado of anxiety fueling one of the biggest purchases you'll ever make. This is not a good idea. So if you're a new homebuyer right now, my advice to you is to focus on what you can control, like the people you choose to help you in the home buying process. You need folks like my friends at Churchill Mortgage. Churchill is a Ramsey trusted provider that's been helping people with their home mortgages for decades. And their home buyer edge program will help you skip a bunch of the stress.

Here's how it works. Apply to become a Churchill certified home buyer and cap your interest rate for 90 days. Then you'll get a $5,000 seller guarantee to help your offer stand out. So go ahead, take a deep breath because Churchill has your back. Check them out at churchillemortgage.com slash deloney and get the home buyer edge today all right we're back let's take one more let's go to erica in nakadoches dude this is all texas show what's up erica hi dr john how are you i'm good what are you doing yeah i stepped outside of my office for a bit to take this call. So very cool. So what's up?

All right. So there is a man I know through church. We do not go to the same congregation, but we're in the same denomination. We live about an hour apart from each other. Okay. And I have through knowing him through church functions and just knowing him about a year and a half have developed feelings for this person. Ew. Ew.

I know all the cooties. I know. Is he handsome? I think so, but it's just a little taste. That's what my wife says when people are like, oh, is he good looking? She's like, ugh, I think so. Good job, Erica.

Good job. All right. So you've developed feelings for him. Okay. And so what do you like? Are you in or what? I told him about two weeks ago how I actually feel. Yes.

Way to go. He seemed very shocked. He seemed to have no idea. Okay. And he's like, what do you mean me? I'm weird. I'm strange. I'm not feeling worthy.

What are you talking about? And I just lay it all out there. I'm honest with him. I had, I told him I had to be honest with you. So even if it's one sided, I felt that you deserve to know that this is the dynamic that I'm coming at this from. And I have not heard from him in two weeks. It is normal for me not to hear from him for two weeks. Ruh-roh.

It is normal for me not to hear from him for a couple weeks at a time because of his work and other church commitments he has. So it's not the not hearing from him that is worrying me. I'm just wondering where is the balance between I need my answers on how you feel, so I need to either connect or move on versus your boundaries your schedule your roles as a man in your church community like where's that line in that boundary of both of us getting what we need out of this well unless he's put that that unless he's put that boundary out there it doesn't exist you're imagining that boundary

and it provides you some amount of safety because you laid it all out there and dude i'm proud of you how old are you 30 dude i'm so proud of you how old is this dude 53 dang gina 53 Gina 53. Yeah, dude. He probably was like, uh, what? Um, yeah. Like, has he ever been married? No, he has never been married. He's the one that was like, if I can tell within a few days that it's not going to be marriage potential, I'm not going to waste my time. What a knucklehead.

You know who says that 53 year old single idiots. Good grief. Listen, I... Anyway, I had that same idea. And if I'd kept to it, I still would be single because I can find something anyway. So here's the deal. I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt, okay? I never met him.

I don't know him. But I am feeling optimistic today, okay? Okay. okay i never met him i don't know him but i am feeling optimistic today okay okay i think with all of my heart this is a skills issue and if he was my friend i would be razzing him like crazy you're telling me a beautiful 30 year old woman just walked up to you and said, I've got feelings for you. And you just got back in your truck and drove off? Like, what's the matter with you? You know what I mean? I would be giving him a hard time. But I want to honor the fact that this probably hasn't happened a lot in his life.

Is that fair? Yeah, that'd be fair to say. And he probably doesn't know what to do next. And he's probably terrified Of these scary little things inside of him Called feelings Right, and that's why I wanted to respect Not enough to give him

To give him the time to process What I just told him No, you laid a grenade at his house And you're worried about whether it went off Yes, it went off So Until he sets up a boundary, I would have already, I mean, if I had the same conversation you did,

if I found myself a nice 53-year-old woman and I, that's just too weird, I'm married. I was trying to go with it, but it just sounded, just was going to get off the rails. You laid it out there it's very fair for you to call him back and say hey we're getting coffee and we're getting coffee on friday or saturday and then you sit down with him and say hey i told you i liked you and you just say anything for two weeks what What are you thinking? What are you feeling?

And if he says, well, okay, I don't have, I don't, you don't say, no, I am a grown woman and I get to like who I like. And I like you. I would like you to ask me on a date. Or because it's the 21st century, you could i'm asking you on a date and literally what you're doing is you're walking up to his perceived boundary and you're knocking on it and you're saying can i come in and if you do this he might say no because all relationship is a risk i think he would be making a terrible choice, but he might say no. What do you think if you did that? What do you think he would say?

I mean, I would love to hope he'd say yes, but he's one of those that, you know, he's such a sweetheart that in order to not upset somebody, he might do something that's out of his comfort zone. You, man. I don't want him to do that. I want him to be honest with you. I'd rather get an honest no than an I'm too sweet to tell you no yes. I know, but you hear what you're doing, Erica? This is a whole other phone call. You are already setting up the seeds for where he can't be successful.

Because he's going to say, sure. And your first response is going to be, you don't have to. And then he's going to start doubting himself. If you don't want to do this, don't just do it to make me happy. And he's going to be like, I thought you, okay. See what I'm saying? Yeah. You are worth going all in.

And if it doesn't work, if he looks at you and says, honey, you're just too young, or I just don't have feelings for you, or I'm just an old man and I just want to be single, it will hurt like bloody hell. But if he says, I'm just an old man and I just want to be single, it will hurt like bloody hell. But if he says, I'm in. Erica, it'll be awesome. I completely agree. All of our friends are already trying to sail the ship. Gross, gross, gross.

But you see what I'm saying? This only works if you walk over there and you believe I am worth being in relationship. I'm freaking Erica. And I like you. And I get to like whoever I want to like. And so I like you. And I put it out there.

And then you just did whatever you do. I don't know what he does for a living. But you just got in your car, did your thing, and didn't call for two weeks. By the way, never again can you do that. If I put my feelings on the table, you get 48 hours and then we're going to talk about them. And he gets an opportunity to say, hey, that's too quick for me. Sometimes I need a week. And see what I'm saying?

Now y'all are starting to say your needs out loud and you're starting to be honest with each other and you're practicing it. And he's going to need a lot of practice because this is new for him. Fair? Fair. And so part of you knowing that I'm going after a single 53-year-old guy who's never been married, never been in a long-term relationship

is he's going to do things a little unorthodox or he's going to have some skills to learn or he's going to have to learn the new protocols, right? Of how people... You grew up in a world where there was text messages. He grew up in a world where there were carrier pigeons, right? Of how people, you grew up in a world where there was text messages. He grew up in a world where there were carrier pigeons, right? Very different planets.

I mean, and I'm completely willing to work on that. I've got the learning curve. I've got the learning curve myself of the only relationships I've ever been in are bad ones. So we, you know, we each have our own learning curve.

Yes. If I expect him to work on mine, then I'm willing to work on his. Yes. Hey, all of us have learning curves when we get into new relationships. Whether we're going to work at a new job, whether we have a new kid, whether we are married and the dynamic of our relationship has changed after three years or five years or seven years or 20 years. We all have to, quote unquote, work on ourselves and work on our relationship all the time. That's the beauty of it. It's when you start trying to plant seeds to feed yourself in an apocalyptic winter.

It could go wrong. Or he might just be saying yes. Don't do that. If you find out six months from now. He just said yes. Because he was too insecure to say no. And he never liked you. Never wanted to kiss you.

Never wanted to hold your hand in the movie. Or whatever. He just did it to go along with it. Because he was too nervous to say no. That would be devastating. And heartbreaking. And it be devastating and heartbreaking. And it will still be better than if you go into this relationship, you put yourself out there, you follow back up and say,

hey, dingbat, I haven't heard from you in two weeks. I put my heart on the line. What are you doing? And he says, I'm all in. Still worth it. Is that fair? Yeah, he is. No, no, no.

You. You're worth it. I don't care about him. He didn't even call you back. Okay? You're worth it. Even if he tells you no. You were honest with you. You were honest with you You were brave for you

You were vulnerable on behalf of you That's the good stuff in life Even when it doesn't work out Cool? Cool Here's your homework assignment Call him today and say we're meeting in person Don't let him off the hook with a phone call.

Set up a time to meet in person in the next 24, 48 hours. And then you don't go there with your head down. Say, I told you I liked you two weeks ago. I haven't heard anything from you. You're going to have to talk about your feelings like that. Don't sing to him. He might think that's weird. Cool?

I mean, I was that theater kid. I could sing to him, right? I know you could. Yeah, that, hey, that, I would probably be freaked out a little bit by that. But hey, you know what, Erica? You do you. You, like, go for it.

He needs to know what he's getting into, so if you can burst into song at any moment, who knows? But sit down and be honest with him. Sit down and say, hey, where are you? Where are we? And by the way, if you're married, been married a long time, my wife and I, 20 years this summer,

we just had this conversation. Where are you? Where are you? Had one of the greatest summers ever. And then we're halfway through the fall and it's already getting hard. How do we get back on track? How do we control, delete, and start again? And yes, it's exhausting.

Yes, it's frustrating. And yes, it is reality. Let's get back on the wagon and start again. Let's go again. Erica, have a conversation and you got to report back. You gotta let me know what he says I can't wait to hear we'll be right back Hey, what's up deloney here? Listen you and me and everybody else on the planet has felt anxious or burned out or chronically stressed at some point

In my new book building a a Non-Anxious Life, you'll learn the six daily choices that you can make to get rid of your anxious feelings and be able to better respond to whatever life throws at you so you can build a more peaceful, non-anxious life. Get your copy today at johndeloney.com. All right, as we wrap up today's show, it's the song lyrics of the day brought to you by Kelly herself from the great Carly Rae Jepsen. Carly Rae Jepsen. Maybe the greatest name ever.

Song's called Call Me Maybe, and it goes like this. I threw a wish in the well. Don't ask me, I'll never tell. I looked to you as it fell, and now you're in my way. I'd trade my soul for a wish, pennies and dimes for a kiss. I wasn't looking for this, but now you're in my way. Your stare was holding ripped jeans. Skin was showing.

Hot night wind was blowing. Where you think you're going, baby? Gross. Hey, I just met you and this is crazy but here's my number so call me maybe get it Erica we'll see you soon