The Dr. John Delony Show - Counselor & Bestselling Author Sissy Goff on Raising Healthy Kids

Episode Date: March 17, 2021

The Dr. John Delony Show is a caller-driven show that offers real people a chance to be heard as they struggle with relationship issues and mental health challenges. John will give you practical advice on how to connect with people, how to take the next right step when you feel frozen, and how to cut through the depression and anxiety that can feel so overwhelming. You are not alone in this battle. You are worth being well—and it starts by focusing on what you can control. Let us know what’s going on by leaving a voicemail at 844.693.3291 or visiting johndelony.com/show. We want to talk to YOU! Show Notes for this Episode Sissy Goff M.Ed., LPC-MHSP is the Director of Child and Adolescent Counseling at Daystar Counseling Ministries in Nashville, Tennessee, where she works alongside her counseling assistant/pet therapist, Lucy the Havanese. Since 1993, she has been helping girls and their parents find confidence in who they are and hope in who God is making them to be, both as individuals and families. Sissy is a sought-after speaker for parenting events and the author of twelve books, including the bestselling Raising Worry-Free Girls and Braver, Stronger, Smarter (for elementary aged girls) and her new release for teenage girls, Brave. Sissy is a regular contributor to various podcasts and publications as well as her own podcast called Raising Boys and Girls. You can find more information and resources at raisingboysandgirls.com. Raising Boys & Girls Daystar Counseling Ministries Check out Sissy's books tags: kids, parenting, anxiety, counseling/therapy These platforms contain content, including information provided by guests, that is intended for informational and entertainment purposes only. The content is not intended to replace or substitute for any professional medical, counseling, therapeutic, financial, legal, or other advice. The Lampo Group, LLC d/b/a Ramsey Solutions as well as its affiliates and subsidiaries (including their respective employees, agents and representatives) make no representations or warranties concerning the content and expressly disclaim any and all liability concerning the content including any treatment or action taken by any person following the information offered or provided within or through this show. If you have specific concerns or a situation in which you require professional advice, you should consult with an appropriately trained and qualified professional expert and specialist. If you are having a health or mental health emergency, please call 9-1-1 immediately.

Hey, what's up? This is John with the Dr. John Deloney Show. I hope you're doing well. Hope your neighbors and you are getting along. Hope you're being kind to the people all around you. Hope you're at work. Hope your family's doing well. Hope everything is going okay. Today we've got a special episode. I'm going to interview a Nashville legend, Miss Sissy Goff. She is the Director of Child and Adolescent Counseling at Daystar Counseling here in Nashville, Tennessee.

She's been counseling kids for 30 years. And one of the things I love to do when I sit down to talk to mental health professionals is I like to pretend that I'm asking them questions for you guys. I like to pretend I'm asking them these big global theoretical practical questions for others. But reality, I'm just asking questions because I'm just a fumbling dad trying to figure this out myself. And I got two little kids. I'm married. I got two dogs running around. I've got neighbors. I'm trying to figure this out too. And so on the special edition, I'm talking to Sissy Goff about raising daughters, raising sons, how to be married amidst all this chaos. What do you say to your kid when they come to you and ask you what racism is, what COVID-19 means? why can't we hang out? What about politics?

How do we navigate these messy, messy issues with little ones? We're so glad you're with us. Stay tuned. Okay. So we were just talking offline. Tell me about your practice here in Nashville. So we see kids from about four up through 18, and we have individual counseling and we have group counseling. And then we have in the summer, we have individual counseling and we have group counseling. And then we have, in the summer, we have two different kind of summer programs. One's like day camp and then we have an overnight retreat program, too, for the kids that are involved. And how many families are you running through there? 1,900 currently.

A year. Well, just right now in our practice, we're seeing 1,900 families. Holy, so you'll rotate out. Yeah. Thousands. Yeah, yes. And I've been doing it almost 30 years. So I don't even know how many thousands of kids I've seen.

You're not even 30 years old. That is so kind. There's no way. Thank you. Oh my gosh. Okay, so one of my favorite things about sitting down with mental health professionals is I like to ask veiled questions about your expertise about my own kids and family. So I can sound like I'm speaking to the masses when really I'm trying to just steal insights from you that I can take back to my own house.

And that makes me happy. You've got the same expertise. No, you got 38. No, I don't have the same. I wish, I wish. So your most recent book, Brave, A Teen Girl's Guide to Beating Worry and Anxiety. Tell me about the origin of this. So, well, pre-COVID, our publisher actually based on another book called Are My Kids on Track came to me and said, will

you write a book on anxiety for little girls? And you would totally get this. I was like, not unless I can write one for parents too. Yes, because it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. So I wrote pre-COVID one for elementary age girls, because that's the average age of onset these days, and one for parents. And then the pandemic started. And all of a sudden, I wasn't as worried about the little girls, but I was worried about teenagers. And so at that point, I thought, I need to write one for them, too. And so I cranked out this Brave book in like 10 weeks.

Good for you. Because, you know, we were home and kind of bored at that point, I thought, I need to write one for them, too. And so I cranked out this Brave book in like 10 weeks. Good for you. Because, you know, we were home and kind of bored at that point. The most common question I'm asked, above and beyond any other question, is what has happened in the last 25 years that has made everyone so anxious and depressed? And I've got my own theories and whatever about it. If you had to walk back, you start, I mean, you've been in a practice five years and all of a sudden you watch stuff just start to turn underneath us, right? Where would you point a mom and her dad who's just sitting there with their face in their hands? Where would you point them to some of the origins of this madness?

Well, I mean, you know, genetically, if a parent, you have anxiety, your kids are seven times more likely. And then I think technology is a huge piece of it. Just what it does to our brains in terms of almost mimicking a state of anxiety. Social media is a huge part of it. I also really believe, and I read. I love how you. Trying to graciously say this. Yes, yes.

Yeah. I read 23 books on anxiety to get ready. So I did a lot of research. And the two most common parenting strategies are escape and avoidance. So the child feels concerned or worried and the parent pulls them out. Yes. And I think that's making the problem worse. And part of it, I think you're a lot younger than I am.

But part of it, I think, is we grew up and our parents weren't in counseling. No. Of course, weren't in counseling. No. Of course. Weren't even talking about any of these things. And likely, I mean, my age group wasn't in counseling. Yours might have been more. Maybe. Yeah, no.

And so I think we're seeing a lot of parents who are overcompensating for what they feel like they didn't get. And so now they're trying so hard to understand and empathize that they're stopping there. And in the books, I have it broken down into understanding, help, and hope. Okay. And it's like they're doing a great job with the understanding, but not moving them into help and the coping skills to work through it. And so they end up blazing this trail ahead of them so that their kids will be okay. Totally.

Yes. Which then robs them of the ability to learn some of these skills. Right. Exactly. Yeah. And in the books, I came up with this definition that anxiety is an overestimation of the problem and an underestimation of themselves. Okay.

So it's that gap between what I can do and what I think I need to be doing. Totally. And when we rescue them, we're saying, yep, it's too big and you're too small. Exactly. So then they run up against the next thing and they immediately start looking around for who's going to pluck them out, right? Right. Right.

Okay. So I have a five-year-old girl and is she your oldest she's my youngest she's your i've got two okay um she's my youngest i got a 10 year old boy okay and a five-year-old girl that's fun it's super fun and i my wife and i my wife, she graduated with her PhD before me. We were so, so arrogant after our son. Like, after a couple of years, we just thought, everyone else sucks at parenting. We're geniuses. Clearly, we need to quit our jobs and go teach people how to do this. And then my daughter came along, and we realized we have no idea what we are doing, right?

We just rolled the dice well on the first round. What should I be doing now? What can I be doing? This is me not professionally. This is me coming to you humbly. What can I be doing right now to make sure or to at least put some breadcrumbs along the way so that my daughter can have as good a body image, as good a reflection image as possible. I've heard everything from it's the dad's responsibility to make sure your daughter grows up healthy. I've heard that all she will do is watch my wife's – the way my wife processes her own image. I've heard everything in between. Tell me something – or tell me a few things i can

do right now to instill that in her well i don't know that i would say i wouldn't probably land in either place i wouldn't either the less black and white i am yeah so i mean i think i think to think about food is fuel okay obviously to talk about strength instead of ever talking about weight. I mean, I have so many, I've had so many moms over the years who are critical of their daughter's bodies. And I have never, I mean, I jokingly say I've never had a girl who says, my mom told me I need to lose some weight. And she says, let me get on that.

You know, never, never. It backfires every time. And so I think as a dad, I mean, I think, I definitely think it's great to tell her she's beautiful inside and out, that you're talking about all of where beauty comes from in her and that it's really resonating inside of her more than anything. And that flows outward. But I think too, you as a dad have this, I think as women, we're so intense. And I think as men, you have this ability to have a lightheartedness and help them move toward risk taking things with you that are out of her comfort zone. I think that capability and competence are, I think, linked to self-image and even body image.

I think it all runs together. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. So I think speaking to the strengths of who she is and helping grow her confidence in an ability in a way that's very unique to who you are as a man. How do you grow a kid's confidence besides letting them try and fail? It seems to be the link, right? Yeah. I can't just tell them.

Right. But you do that too. Right. I mean, I think it's both. I mean, they're going to roll their eyes and she's going to say, you have to say that because you're my dad. But I would say, say it anyway. You know, I have a friend who is really confident, probably one of the most confident women I

know. And we were at a dinner party one time and she said that when she was growing up, every time she walked down the stairs of her home, like every time, no matter how she was dressed, her dad whistled the theme song to Miss America. Oh, wow. Isn't that awesome? Which, I mean, she was never in a pageant in her whole life. But I love that he was saying, when you walk in the room, I'm going to stop and pay attention to you.

Yep. And I think just that level of engagement even plays into her confidence in a really significant way. And that's not taking her on some elaborate date. No, it's the little things. Yes, totally. I notice that my kids, from however different they are, they both, if I were to distill them down into one sentence, one question it would be, please see me. And that seems to be the most pervasive, overarching thing about their behavior, whether my son is trying to get straight A's, my daughter is trying to set something on fire, or vice versa. It is, please see me. And every time I can jump the front of the line and make sure they know before they even

have to perform, I see you just because you're you, right? It just seems the air in the room gets lighter, right? Okay, so one of the things you wrote about in your book, which I love and you made my nerd heart feel good. You talk about this idea of co-rumination, right? So we talk a lot about on this show, this idea of rumination. This idea, it's just spinning and spinning. And we think that we are thinking about important things.

And so we give ourselves a pass, right? So we'll sit there and have imaginary conversations that we're never going to have. Yes. Right? We flex in a toughness that we absolutely are not, right? But we're thinking about hard things, about when the world's going to end and how much bullets we're going to have, all this stuff, right? Yes.

Non-productive thinking, yeah. But then you get into co-rumination in this balance between we have a dance, right, where I just spend all my time telling you how bad things are and you give me an audience, right? How do I balance that me an audience, right? How do I balance that in my kids, right? Because I want them to be heard and I want them to be listened to. And I think one of the worst things men do is we run in and try to give facts-based solutions to everything instead of just being with, right? And listening. How do I both hear and avoid that co-rumination cycle that's just such a mess.

You know, I think where I think it can be, I love to think about Marriage Counseling 101. You know, the first time you ever go to marriage counseling and one of the first things you learn to do is reflective listening. What I hear you saying is, and it sounds so silly. Stop solving. You listen. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right, right. And I mean, I remember being in graduate school and they taught that and me thinking that's not going to do a thing. And then all of a sudden it's magical when you do it. And I mean, I remember being in graduate school and they taught that and me thinking, that's not going to do a thing. And then all of a sudden it's magical when you do it. And so I think no matter what age your kids are, to build a say back, I really hear that you're frustrated or I get that you're worried about that or I understand. I mean, seeing them and saying it back to them. And then I'm a huge fan. I always just talk about empathy and questions.

Sometimes that's the only thing I'll say to a parent in a whole session. So being empathetic and then moving towards what do you want to do about it? What do you feel like God's called you to do in this? Who do you want to be in this? Because I think when we're fixing it for them, when we're problem solving for them, we're going back to that definition of anxiety. Not only can you not do it, you can't even figure it out. And so I've got to do it for you. But when we come back with questions, empathy and then questions, we're saying, I think you're capable. Like you got this. So there's that. I live by two creeds. One, you don't need to say anything to your kids because they're watching you. If you want them to live a certain way, you have to live it because they're watching you. And the second is let them know that they're seen. But that takes out my core

defense mechanism, which is my advice, right? Right. So I want everyone listening to this to hear someone way smarter than me. On most occasions, the last thing your kids need is advice. Your advice. Yes. How do you teach a parent to shut up? To just stop talking? You like how I did that? I pointed it to parents being the listeners, but I'm talking about somebody. That was good.

You know, I mean, what I will do in my counseling office is say, I mean, I met with a couple recently, and they're repeating the same thing over and over and over, especially with adolescents by you by the time you hit that point they've heard everything you have to say all of it all of it and so i said to this couple have has she heard you say that before and they said yes and then i said then stop saying what she needs now is for you to feel like she likes you yes just shut up just my sister and i have a joke. My dad was a homicide, was a SWAT hostage negotiator. So he cut people off a bill, right? Wow.

And we have this fireplace in our old childhood home where my dad would sit in one recliner and my mom, and I've told the story publicly so they won't be embarrassed. And they would talk to us and we know how many bricks were in the fireplace because we'd heard it yes we knew

you just we knew and you glaze over right and it was that idea of being talked at versus talked with right or heard yeah yes okay all right so this is maybe a messier question since um we know the kids watch you right right? Give me, the universal husband here, some tips on how I can love my wife. How can I love my partner enough in ways that my daughter and even my son will pick that up, right? Because I want her not to have a frontal lobe understanding of what love is, but I want her to see it. What are some things that couples get wrong when it comes to loving each other in a way that's demonstrative? Well, I think with girls in particular, girls are so intuitive from a really early age. And they start to pick up on the differences in your parenting and they start to manipulate it.

So good. And so I feel like one of the best things we can do for girls is to present a unified front. Okay. Over the years, I've had way too many stories of things like, I remember a girl sitting in my office and saying to me, well, my mom's really strict. And my dad and I think, which however she filled that in, yeah, it's scary already. Yeah, they're like investing in counseling, or marriage counseling maybe for her later. And so I think enjoying your wife, presenting a unified front. I mean, of course you're going to have disagreements, but arguments need to be had behind closed doors.

And I would recommend two sets of closed doors because girls listen at the first set. I mean, I hear so many girls talk about sitting at the top of the stairs and listening to their parents argue downstairs, you know? So I think those are probably two of the best things. So I've gotten advice in the past to argue in front of your kids, not wildly, so that they can see an arc of a relationship where this is what a disagreement between two people who love each other, and then the next morning they're having breakfast together and everybody's smiling and laughing. That must be what that looks like, right? Yes. What's the balance between that? I guess that's the balance between that disagreement versus a,

we need to get behind closed doors and take the gloves off for a minute. Yes, heated. Yes, really angry. And I think specifically if it's about them, because what'll happen is if it's about them, one of you is often going to be siding with your child and feel like the other parent is being too strict. And so when that happens, that's where I think girls can step into all that Freud stuff. They start owning you. Yes. I'm going to triangulate myself in here between my parents. And so I think those are the arguments that feel more concerning to me as primarily counselor to girls that they're going to start to work that later on. Is it true that – I hope it's true because I say it almost every single show here.

It's true. Whatever it is. That you alluded to this. Kids feel the relational tension. Yes. And they tend to backfill that tension with, it must be my fault. And they start trying to solve it in these ways. Is that right?

Yes, absolutely. Okay. Yeah. And they start solving it. It's been my experience that kids, whether they get into stuff that we've all said is not a good idea, whether it's they're going to run off and make straight A's, they're going to tuck their shirts in, and they're going to try to perfect their body image. That really, on the arc, is the same behavior. It just, we reward some of it, unfortunately, and then it can still pathologize itself. It can still get off the rails there, and then we go to war against other behaviors. But really, they're just trying to, I guess it goes back to being seen, but they're

just trying to perform, right? Yes, absolutely. And, I mean, that's, you know, with anxiety right now, girls are leading the statistics. And boys are taken in for treatment more, whereas girls are more anxious. And I think it's because of exactly what you said. I think boys often are more explosive. And so we're seeing their behavior, and it's concerning. And girls who are anxious. They're imploding from the inside out.

They're imploding. And they're perfectionistic and they're doing great in school. And parent-teacher conferences, the teachers say, I wish every child was like her. But we're missing that it's fueled by the same thing, this panic inside of,

I've got to live up to the expectations. So how do you, man, you're going to get me all fired up here and it's just the middle of the day. So what do I say as a parent? I know my daughter's not doing well. And the teacher is saying, you can feel your 7-year-old, your 12-year-old, your 14-year-old start to withdraw. They're still checking the boxes.

They're going to school. They're still getting the grades good enough. You know you're losing your kid, and you can't put your finger on it. And you've got a teacher. You've got a pastor at some church. You've got adults and their soccer coach saying, I would do anything for a team full of those. And then I got a boy who's a knucklehead and rambunctious and so kind and so compassionate. And you can watch them grinding through that distraction to get their

grades. And I've got a teacher saying, I don't want that kid in my class anymore. How do you equip, what would you equip parents with to go into those conversations? Well, I think I would say, trust your gut as a parent, because you're going to have a million people. You see that? She's making me look so smart. Oh my gosh. Dude, this whole episode, everybody's just for me. It's 100% for me. I have a little self-esteem and she's making me feel better.

Yes. Okay. Yeah. I mean, you know your child better than anybody. And I think just like with our health, you've got to advocate for yourself and for your child. And so even if it takes you saying things and putting yourself out there and going back over and over,

trust your gut and follow it. So as someone who works with families a lot, how many times, you have your own kids? No. Okay, you don't, okay. I've counseled thousands of them over the years, but I have a two-year-old nephew. Okay, so how would you answer this question for me then?

The longer I go, the more I wish I could walk back. Does that make sense? How do you teach a parent to forgive themselves? How about that? The more I go, oh, gosh, I wish I could have that conversation back. I wish I could. How do you not let that pile up as a parent? And you can begin to discharge that pain and then move on,

right? You can't keep carrying that around with you. Well, I mean, I think it all gets used at some point. And if this generation of kids is feeling more pressure than ever before to be a perfect parent, the fact that you weren't is only going to help them alleviate that when they get to their own parenting. And I think, you know, again, you're younger than I am, but I think so many of us never had parents who said, I'm sorry, will you forgive me? And kids today feel so much pressure to be perfect. And so as their hero, for you to say to them, I blew it. I'm sorry.

Will you forgive me? Even if it's five years later, I've been thinking about a conversation we had once. And I wish I'd done that differently. Like what a powerful message for them that validates and values them. I think saying I'm sorry to your kids is the most important thing you can do. Is that fair? Yes, absolutely. It's fair. Yes. I think anybody apologizes to anybody these days is pretty awesome. Yes. And failing in front of them. Yeah. And then say, man, I blew that one. Yes. And come with me as I go make it right. Yes.

So good. Okay. So my counseling session's almost over here. How much time we have, James? Another hour or two? Okay, good. We're going to keep going then. Good.

Okay. Here's my last question. At what point, or let me just back up, this year was a mess. We all experienced it. Yes. Our kids experienced it, and every single parent I know, from a parent of four-year-olds to parents of 24-year-olds, had to navigate, how much do I tell my kid? When do I tell them? What do I tell them? How much do I shield them from, hide them from, et cetera? What insights do you give to parents when they are navigating how much of these issues, COVID, George Floyd, racism stuff, and politics,

how much of that, how do you teach a parent to navigate that? Well, the first thing I would say is you always want to be the source as their parents in all things. They need to feel like they know where you are on things and that they can come to you with anything. And so when we avoid topics, I think we take ourselves out of being the source a lot of times. And so I would say start young, especially if you feel like they've heard about it somewhere else, and give them really short, just less than a paragraph of information. You know, hey, here's, we have this pandemic that started in our world. Tell me what you've heard. I mean, I would immediately go back to them and let them tell you because often they haven't heard much, or they've heard something wacky at school that's so off off what's accurate.

And I think so many times we end up having those conversations out of our own panic. And so we give them more information than they even need. But it's about us and it's not about them. Yes, I've got to offload this instead of help. Yes, totally. So I would say a little bit, then tell me what you've heard and then ask me questions. And then that way, again, they're kind of leading because they, I mean, in all things, even if we were talking about parents getting divorced, kids ask the questions that they're

ready for the information. And if they don't ask, they can't handle it a lot of times. So those would be my main things I would say in terms of. And it's been my experience that you, if you are going to engage in a kid, you got to tell the truth. Yes, absolutely. I've just seen too many folks round about the truth or lie to their kids or skip over stuff, and then suddenly 5, 10. Secrets always come out.

Secrets always come out. They always come out, yeah. I'd rather hard things come out and my kid know my dad's an idiot, but he tells the truth versus my dad lied to me. Yes. I'd much rather this over that. Yes. Huh. So what's the, what's,

what's the one thing as a parent, I got to know me and my wife are sitting there looking at our two kids running around the yard. Tell us what we need to know right now. Well, help me. I, I think we would probably as a staff at Daystar collectively say that we have had more

parents in our offices in tears in the last six months than we've ever had. I 100% have experienced that too. Yeah. And so I would say, number one, you're doing great. Listening, you're doing great with your kids, whatever's going on with them them, just the fact that you're here and showing up and trying right now in 2021 means you're doing great. We gave Josephine cigarettes for the first time. She got super calm last night. And I'm going to tell my wife, we are doing great. Yeah, I think that's one thing I would say. And then, you know, the other thing, as I was writing the first two books on anxiety, it was pre-pandemic.

And one of the things I was worried about is how I felt like kids were less resilient than they had been in generations. And I think we were part of it. Like all those live in my best life T-shirts and hashtag best day ever, all that stuff, which, by the way, I haven't heard in a year. Nope. But I think we were making it worse because they felt like something's wrong with me because I'm going through something hard. And I firmly believe the kids growing up right now are going to be more resilient than kids that we've seen in generations. By a hundred miles. Yes.

I think there's so much hope. Yeah. I've even seen some preliminary studies that kids have adapted, especially young kids, to usually there's a focus on mouths when you're talking to, and they're already being able to shift and recognize eye crinkles so quick. And so some of these things I was so freaked out about may end up not coming to, right, not coming to pass. And it ends up being my drama that I'm passing on to my kids as opposed to me trying to protect them in any noble way or whatever.

All right, so Sissy Goff, child counselor extraordinaire. on to my kids as opposed to me trying to protect them in any noble way or whatever. So, all right. So, Sissy Goff, child counselor extraordinaire. Thank you for a short amount of time. You're so awesome. There's a few people that come through here that everyone is saying, oh, they're a great person that you should interview. And my kids go there, right? This isn't like a high-level referral.

This is like, no, this is like no this is where my colleagues put their put their money and put their most trusted resource so um these two books extraordinary where can people go get these anywhere books are sold and we have a web web we have a website that's raisingboysandgirls.com excellent raisingboysandgirls.com sissy goff if you have a child i was gonna say if you have a child struggling with anxiety I'm just going to refine that if you have a child you should pick up these two books

thank you so much for your time you're a saint and I hope you guys keep doing the great great work that y'all are in our community thank you so much

hey thank you so much for joining me and my new friend Sissy Goff if you're interested in her books if you've got kids that are struggling

with anxiety if you've got daughters who are struggling with anxiety, if you've got daughters who are struggling with anxiety, check out the show notes and we will list the resources there. I hope everybody in your life is doing well. We're not going to have any lyrics today. We're just going to end it here. Thank you for joining us with the Dr. John Deloney Show.